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Old 10-09-2018, 10:49 AM   #1
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Default Partial Rapture

In looking at the matter of the Bema (aka "Judgment Seat of Christ"), which is being discussed specifically on another thread called "Outer Darkness," the topic of the rapture is closely related. I did a search and didn't find a specific thread on here regarding the topic of Partial Rapture. This is an idea promoted by Nee, Lee and the LC, who got the concept from many before them.

Here is a paper I found by Nee that I think might be the basis for some discussion, if anyone is interested. It lays the schools for the different rapture ideas out in about the best, most concise way I've seen. Partial Rapture Paper Found Here

(Does anyone know if this appears in a specific Nee book, and if so, which one?)

THE PAPER STARTS OUT:
Quote:
In order to understand Matthew 24 and 25, it is essential to have a clear knowledge of the subject of rapture. For it is one of the most important matters in this last hour. Unfortunately it is greatly misunderstood by many. Rapture is the same as the word “receive” found in John 14.1-3. It does not signify the idea of “climbing up” to heaven but of the Lord receiving us to heaven. Hence rapture is a specific term used to denote His receiving us at His soon return.

There are different views on rapture among believers. Some say (1) that the whole body of the saved will be raptured before the Great Tribulation; others believe (2) that the whole body of the saved must go through the Great Tribulation before they are raptured; while still others feel (3) that a part of the saved will be raptured before the Great Tribulation and a part of them will be raptured after the Great Tribulation. There are mainly these three schools of interpretation on the subject; yet merely because any one of them is different from the one you hold to does not give you any warrant to denounce the different view as heresy. It is wrong to withhold fellowship simply for this reason. Well-known believers are found in all three schools.

Of the first school mentioned, names can be cited such as J. N. Darby, William Kelly (C. H. Spurgeon once said that Kelly’s brain was as large as the universe), R. A. Torrey (who later changed to a post-tribulation rapture view), Phillips Brooks, James Gray, Arno G. Gaebelein, J. A. Seiss, C. I. Scofield, and so forth. Of the second school, there could be listed such names as George Muller (who first believed in pre-tribulation rapture), A.J. Gordon of Boston, A. B. Simpson, W. J. Erdman, W. G. Moorehead, Henry Frost of Canada, James Wright, Benjamin Newton, and so on. And as to the third school, we have names such as Hudson Taylor, Robert Chapman, Robert Govett (Spurgeon praised his writings as having light a century ahead of his time and as being full of gold), G. H. Pember, D. M. Panton (the “prince of prophecy”) and others. None of the three schools can completely ignore the others, yet only one is correct. Let us therefore examine them with fairness, having the attitude of a judge and not that of a lawyer.
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Old 10-12-2018, 01:03 PM   #2
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Default Re: Partial Rapture

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Originally Posted by Sons to Glory! View Post
In looking at the matter of the Bema (aka "Judgment Seat of Christ"), which is being discussed specifically on another thread called "Outer Darkness," the topic of the rapture is closely related. I did a search and didn't find a specific thread on here regarding the topic of Partial Rapture. This is an idea promoted by Nee, Lee and the LC, who got the concept from many before them.

Here is a paper I found by Nee that I think might be the basis for some discussion, if anyone is interested. It lays the schools for the different rapture ideas out in about the best, most concise way I've seen. Partial Rapture Paper Found Here

(Does anyone know if this appears in a specific Nee book, and if so, which one?)

THE PAPER STARTS OUT:
[/i]
I do not know if Nee or Lee discussed in depth the rapture or partial rapture in spite of the Revelation and Matthew trainings..don't know if there was a Daniel training...

in any case, when I left the LC, on this topic I left very confused. Of course I was also young in the Lord. I do know I was confused between the rapture and the second coming, being left in outer darkness for 1000 yrs...etc

Not confused anymore.
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Old 10-12-2018, 01:31 PM   #3
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Default Re: Partial Rapture

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I do not know if Nee or Lee discussed in depth the rapture or partial rapture in spite of the Revelation and Matthew trainings..don't know if there was a Daniel training...

in any case, when I left the LC, on this topic I left very confused. Of course I was also young in the Lord. I do know I was confused between the rapture and the second coming, being left in outer darkness for 1000 yrs...etc

Not confused anymore.
You're not the first to figure it all out. There's been plenty that were certain before you, that so far have been wrong.

If Jesus and the angels don't know the day or hour, how can I trust Nee and/or Lee to know anything at all about it? For that matter, how can I trust anyone on this matter, that is this side of the heaven. And even then, they don't know.
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Old 10-12-2018, 02:09 PM   #4
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Default Re: Partial Rapture

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Originally Posted by awareness View Post
You're not the first to figure it all out. There's been plenty that were certain before you, that so far have been wrong.

If Jesus and the angels don't know the day or hour, how can I trust Nee and/or Lee to know anything at all about it? For that matter, how can I trust anyone on this matter, that is this side of the heaven. And even then, they don't know.
Not sure your reply has to do with the rapture, does it? (seems more like it's about knowing the day of the 2nd coming . . .)

I started the thread because I thought Nee's write-up of the differing views of the rapture (Greek: harpazo - caught away), which I cited, was laid-out the best I'd seen. And along with it he presents the different authors who held the three basic rapture views. Regardless what you think of Nee, I thought it was well organized and informative, and a good place to start.

However, there are not any current theologians listed, as Nee wrote this some time ago obviously. It seems the overwhelming thought in Christendom these days is that "Before the Great Tribulation Jesus will immediately rapture all Christians to be with Him in heaven for eternity." I don't think I've ever even heard a current preacher speak much on the possibility of something different -- perhaps once or twice in passing, and then any other ideas of the rapture that differed in the slightest were quickly dismissed as being obviously in error.

Lately, I have heard some brothers who participate in different groups around here, talk about how the church will go through the Great Trib. So maybe there are some other views out there starting to circulate.

Does anybody have a reference to TA Sparks and his take on the rapture? All I could find is this: Sparks - Manchild In this he talks about how the manchild is composed of mature believers who will be raptured to the throne for a specific purpose. Another Sparks piece on Overcomers
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Old 10-12-2018, 07:06 PM   #5
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Default Re: Partial Rapture

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Originally Posted by awareness View Post
You're not the first to figure it all out. There's been plenty that were certain before you, that so far have been wrong.

If Jesus and the angels don't know the day or hour, how can I trust Nee and/or Lee to know anything at all about it? For that matter, how can I trust anyone on this matter, that is this side of the heaven. And even then, they don't know.
I did not say I have it ALL figured out. I have looked at several theories because that is what they all are, including my own.

Lee's theory via the Recovery version was/is all convuleted. When I have asked LCrs or ex Lcrs, they can't explain his partial rapture theory to me either.

Btw.. I hope you unerstand JESUS does know when He is returning. When He made that statement, His Body had not yet died, resurrected and glorified. He was fully man. But He is now fully God and fully man. He knows for He and His Father and the Holy Spirit are ONE.

Blessings
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Old 10-12-2018, 07:31 PM   #6
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Default Re: Partial Rapture

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Originally Posted by countmeworthy View Post
Lee's theory via the Recovery version was/is all convuleted. When I have asked LCrs or ex Lcrs, they can't explain his partial rapture theory to me either.
Just read the 3rd school of thought (aka partial rapture theory) in Nee's paper that was linked in the first post. Section V states this school. I think this should be pretty close to what WL and the LC believes.
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Old 10-12-2018, 08:49 PM   #7
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Default Re: Partial Rapture

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Originally Posted by Sons to Glory! View Post
Not sure your reply has to do with the rapture, does it? (seems more like it's about knowing the day of the 2nd coming . . .)

I started the thread because I thought Nee's write-up of the differing views of the rapture (Greek: harpazo - caught away), which I cited, was laid-out the best I'd seen. And along with it he presents the different authors who held the three basic rapture views. Regardless what you think of Nee, I thought it was well organized and informative, and a good place to start.

However, there are not any current theologians listed, as Nee wrote this some time ago obviously. It seems the overwhelming thought in Christendom these days is that "Before the Great Tribulation Jesus will immediately rapture all Christians to be with Him in heaven for eternity." I don't think I've ever even heard a current preacher speak much on the possibility of something different -- perhaps once or twice in passing, and then any other ideas of the rapture that differed in the slightest were quickly dismissed as being obviously in error.

Lately, I have heard some brothers who participate in different groups around here, talk about how the church will go through the Great Trib. So maybe there are some other views out there starting to circulate.

Does anybody have a reference to TA Sparks and his take on the rapture? All I could find is this: Sparks - Manchild In this he talks about how the manchild is composed of mature believers who will be raptured to the throne for a specific purpose. Another Sparks piece on Overcomers
Chuck Missler, Robert Breaker, BBC International, Perry Stone and afew others have helped me formulate my belief in a pre trib rapture. I do also believe there will be other raptures during the trib as well as martyrdom.

I believe the 144,000 in Revelation 7 are the same as those in /revelation 14. IF so they were/are raptured. I know other people who believe Rev 7 and 14 are 2 different groups. I am not convinced.

The 2 witnesses are killed and their bodies lay in the street for 3 days then resurrected and raptured in front of a bunch of people.

Then also in Revelation 14 we read:
And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

While I have no proof, it appears to ME people responding positively with a repentant heart to the everlasting gospel might get raptured.

That is yet to be seen.

And thus you have a mid trib rapture as well as a pre trib rapture!

Now Irvin Baxter believes in a post trib rapture. I find his teachings on the last days rather compelling but I respectfully disagree on his views on a post trib rapture.

Blessings
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Old 10-13-2018, 08:18 AM   #8
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Default Re: Partial Rapture

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Originally Posted by countmeworthy View Post
Btw.. I hope you unerstand JESUS does know when He is returning. When He made that statement, His Body had not yet died, resurrected and glorified. He was fully man. But He is now fully God and fully man. He knows for He and His Father and the Holy Spirit are ONE.

Blessings
There's so much packed into that paragraph.

1) Jesus may now know when he's returning, but he's not telling any more than the Father was telling back then.

2) "But He is now fully God and fully man." ??? Can a heavenly being be fully man? That's interesting.

3) I remember in John Jesus saying, before his death, resurrection, and glorification, "I and the Father are one."

At any rate, I'm glad you pointed out that this prophecy stuff are theories. That's what I've always loved about you Carol. You're honest.

I do have to admit that prophecy is captivating. I was caught up in it back in the Hal Lindsey days (before his 1988 failure - and yes, I know he's still active - but if we went by the Old Testament we would have stoned him already).

Blessings back at ya, sister.

Harold
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Old 10-13-2018, 09:36 AM   #9
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Default Re: Partial Rapture

Regarding prophecy, Lee said definitely that the sons of
Oil would be Moses and Elijah. Yet the scriptures
say it has been given to all men to die once. So does
Moses die a second time? I don’t see how one can definitely
Say who the sons of oil would be. By the way, to tie
This into this thread, after they’re resurrected,
arent they “raptured” into heaven?
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Old 10-13-2018, 11:17 AM   #10
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Default Re: Partial Rapture

So taking from Nee's quote (in the first message of this thread - BTW: does this come from a book?), here are the three basic schools of thought concerning the rapture:

(1) The whole body of the saved will be raptured before the Great Tribulation

(2) The whole body of the saved must go through the Great Tribulation before they are raptured

(3) A part of the saved will be raptured before the Great Tribulation and a part of them will be raptured after the Great Tribulation.

Personally, I have always thought that both #1 and #2 had good scripture to back up their respective viewpoints. That is, there are verses to show the rapture happens before the Great Trib, and there are verses to show it happens after the Great Trib. Therefore, #3 must be the most accurate.

What do you think: #1, #2 or door #3?
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Old Yesterday, 10:27 AM   #11
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Default Re: Partial Rapture

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There's so much packed into that paragraph.

1) Jesus may now know when he's returning, but he's not telling any more than the Father was telling back then.
And you know this how????

Quote:
2) "But He is now fully God and fully man." ??? Can a heavenly being be fully man? That's interesting.
He has always been God. The second Person of the Godhead. A Mystery for sure.. But sometimes the "God" part of Him was Blocked by the Father. I will explain in a bit.

when you are praying, .... “Pray, then, in this way:

Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10
‘Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.


In this passage Jesus was talking to the people by the mountainside..at least 5,000 I believe. (btw.. have you ever thought how all the people heard Him so clearly?? I am sure He made sure every single person heard Him loud and clear without using a megaphone!)

But in John 14:6 Jesus disclosed to His disciples in order to get to the Father in Heaven, they had to go through Him. “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.

Why did Jesus not tell that to the people at the mountainside ?

Can you imagine how arrogant He would have come across? They would have stoned Him right then and there!! With His disciples though, He was preparing them to take the gospel out the world. And I am sure they were convinced Jesus was the Savior and Messiah.

Ya know 5 months before getting saved, I was writing a 'Dear God" letter one night. As I was writing, I 'heard' a Voice telling me to call on Jesus. To pray to Him. But in the other ear, the devil (not knowing it was Satan) told me to skip 'the middle Man' and go straight to God.

If there are 2 things, I am forever grateful for being in the LC in San Diego, was I learned to go to the Father through JESUS.

I am so baffled by the number of believers who rarely pray directly to their LORD, JESUS. So many people pray O GOD.. O GOD.. ETC.. in the Name of Jesus. I get the sense they do not know Jesus the Christ. But I may be wrong. And to be clear, I do address the Father at times, the Holy Spirit at other times, and our Sweet Lord Jesus most of the time. Often times, I address all Three. I also pray 'In the Name of Jesus' at times too.

The second important and most important teaching in the scriptures I learned and experienced in the LC was trusting in the PRECIOUS, PRECIOUS BLOOD OF JESUS, THE BELOVED LAMB OF GOD Who took away all of my sins, past, present and to come. I do not take His Cleansing Blood for granted in any way at all.


Quote:
I do have to admit that prophecy is captivating. I was caught up in it back in the Hal Lindsey days (before his 1988 failure - and yes, I know he's still active - but if we went by the Old Testament we would have stoned him already).
Hal Lindsey is still around. The man is the most B O R I N G teacher/preacher around. Maybe that's why he has been married 4 times, He bored his wives to death! (Sorry LORD, just a joke..he may bore me, but not You or other people)

I still and always will believe we are in the last SECONDS of the last days. Still a die hard believer in the PRE TRIB RAPTURE followed by the TRIB and the second coming of Christ at the battle of Armageddon WITH HIS armies.

HAVE A GREAT AND BLESSED WEEK Harold and everyone here!
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Old Yesterday, 11:55 AM   #12
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Default Re: Partial Rapture

Awareness & Countmeworthy - I'm having a little trouble figuring out how your current replies pertain to the topic of Partial Rapture . . . maybe you can help me out.
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Old Yesterday, 04:02 PM   #13
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Awareness & Countmeworthy - I'm having a little trouble figuring out how your current replies pertain to the topic of Partial Rapture . . . maybe you can help me out.
Bro Sons, Carol and I have a thing. But if I was putting my money on a rapture discussion, it would be on Carol.
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Old Yesterday, 06:52 PM   #14
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Bro Sons, Carol and I have a thing. But if I was putting my money on a rapture discussion, it would be on Carol.
We have a THING???
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Old Yesterday, 08:07 PM   #15
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So taking from Nee's quote (in the first message of this thread - BTW: does this come from a book?), here are the three basic schools of thought concerning the rapture:

(1) The whole body of the saved will be raptured before the Great Tribulation

(2) The whole body of the saved must go through the Great Tribulation before they are raptured

(3) A part of the saved will be raptured before the Great Tribulation and a part of them will be raptured after the Great Tribulation.

Personally, I have always thought that both #1 and #2 had good scripture to back up their respective viewpoints. That is, there are verses to show the rapture happens before the Great Trib, and there are verses to show it happens after the Great Trib. Therefore, #3 must be the most accurate.

What do you think: #1, #2 or door #3?
I LEAN on Door #1. BUT Door #1 must be more specific. Many believers are not saved because they have never truly trusted/experienced the Precious Blood of Jesus. They think they will go to heaven by believing in God and doing good works, going to church, giving tithes, giving to the poor etc..

If a person is truly washed in the Blood of the Lamb, the person is eternally saved, even if he /she 'backslides'. The reason we believers stand before the JUDGE at the Bema seat is to receive our rewards. At least 5 crowns (rewards) are mentioned in the scriptures. (Crown of Life, Righteousness, Exultation, (Rejoicing), and crown of Glory,).

No true believer washed in the Blood of Jesus will lose his/her salvation. (a debatable discussion among many Christian 'churches'. The confusion with the doctrine of salvation among different Christian circles is the lack of understanding the teaching and application of Christ's Blood.

That lack of understanding IMHO then leads to the 'partial rapture' theory, which does make sense. Many 'Christians' may be 'left behind' because while they might believe in God, in Jesus, are church goers but they are NOT Blood washed believers!

I don't know about you guys who were/are in the LC, but learning and experiencing the POWER of the Cleansing Blood of Jesus in my hey day in the LC, is what has truly SAVED me and kept me from the fear of man...especially the religious man. I remember hearing something like if a person leaves the LC, bad things happen. So the POWER OF THE BLOOD OF JESUS is of no avail then? Please.

Sorry to digress.

There is another interesting study that has grabbed my attention this past year which has clarified some questions on the rapture.. partial or not.

In a nutshell (if that is EVEN possible) I have discovered that when Jesus was talking about His return, as in Matthew 24, Jesus is not talking about the rapture spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 or in 1 Corinthians 15:52.

Had I known this when I came on board with the moniker "countmeworthy" taken from Luke 21:36, I might not have chosen that moniker!

I AM counted worthy
to escape ALL THE THINGS THAT ARE about to come to pass! I am not going to be left behind or go through the Trib! Revelation 3:10 11 tells us: Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown.

I AM WASHED, CLEANSED, SANCTIFIED BY THE BLOOD OF THE LAMB! In Luke 21:36, Jesus is telling the JEWS to watch, to pray TO BE COUNTED WORTHY TO ESCAPE THE TRIB! The church had not yet been born! He was not talking to the gentiles!

Again in Luke 21, as in Matthew 24, Jesus is speaking to the JEWS. They had no knowledge of the rapture or the church or the infilling of the Holy Spirit. So the TRIBULATION which is 7 yrs, and the last 3 1/2 being the GREAT TRIB is mainly for the JEWS who rejected Jesus. The religious, orthodox Jews are waiting for the Messiah to come.

I also think and it is MY PERSONAL OPINION, that Hebrews was written to the saved Jews.. and it is very possible, the non believing Jews who are left behind going through the TRIB will read HEBREWS when they realize the rapture has occurred.

I don't think Nee and Lee even knew this. As I wrote earlier, the LC teachings on the rapture be it partial, pre trib, mid trib, post trib or even PAN TRIB.. (it will all pan out = pan trib ) were very confusing to me. And when I have asked LCrs in recent years their thoughts on the rapture, they are tongue tied.
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Old Today, 09:32 AM   #16
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Default Re: Partial Rapture

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I LEAN on Door #1. BUT Door #1 must be more specific. Many believers are not saved because they have never truly trusted/experienced the Precious Blood of Jesus. They think they will go to heaven by believing in God and doing good works, going to church, giving tithes, giving to the poor etc..

As I wrote earlier, the LC teachings on the rapture be it partial, pre trib, mid trib, post trib or even PAN TRIB.. (it will all pan out = pan trib ) were very confusing to me. And when I have asked LCrs in recent years their thoughts on the rapture, they are tongue tied.
Pan trib! I love it - that's really the bottom line!

To put it in simple terms, there are two basic sets of rapture verses (following Nee's outline):
1. Verses that show rapture before the GT
2. Verses that show rapture after the GT

I've found that usually when the Bible talks specifically about two things that appear to be contradictory (think predestination vs free will), then they are still both true. It is just our limited mentalities which can't seem to accept that both are valid. But if it's in the word, it is true. Trouble arises when we, in our limited mentality, glom onto one or the other, and make our stand there. And therefore, figuratively speaking, cut those troublesome and apparently contradictory verse out of our Bible!

So if there are verses showing that rapture occurs after the GT and before, then how can this be? Our concept says there is one rapture. So which is true, our concept or the Word? (not a tough question, at least in theory)

One thing we find with verses talking of the pre-Trib is that there is some condition set for that promise. For instance, the Lord tells the ekklesia in Philadelphia (Rev 3) that "Because you have kept the word of my endurance, I will keep you out of the hour of trial." Christ praises the ones in Philadelphia for their actions (no rebuke like other churches), and says "Because you have . . . I will keep you out . . ."

So yes, we true Christians are all redeemed by His blood and have been reborn with His indwelling life and have been made new creations in Him, but there is also the matter of our actions after this wonderful occurrence. I have gotten much clearer on this, this past year. It is not so much about the performance-based walk idea I seemed to pick up in the LC, which was a heavy burden indeed. But there definitely is a matter of being well-pleasing to Him - being faithful in at least a few things (as he tells the unfaithful servant in Matt 25).

Many Christians miss this matter of what is expected of them after the new birth. We will all give an account of what we did with the grace He's given us - so yes, our works are examined, with potential reward.

That was just my overview thoughts as a quick response, and I hope I conveyed things clearly. Does any of that make sense?

BTW - Just because WN and WL advocated the partial rapture, doesn't make it wrong. They were standing on the teachings of several before them (so let's not throw the proverbial baby out with the dirty bath water).
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