Politics and the Church

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Who's got time to listen to all that crap?

In short, the best way to stop a bad man with hate speech, is a good man with hate speech.

And the best way to stop a Christian cheerleader for Trump, is a Christian cheerleader against Trump.

Thanks, I was too polite. Looks like you have gone full NRA on us.

[zeek]

Sen. Ben Sasse, R-Neb., said the administration's trade war "is cutting the legs out from under farmers and White House's 'plan' is to spend $12 billion on gold crutches." He added, "This administration's tariffs and bailouts aren't going to make America great again, they're just going to make it 1929 again."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Sen. Ben Sasse, R-Neb., said the administration's trade war "is cutting the legs out from under farmers and White House's 'plan' is to spend $12 billion on gold crutches." He added, "This administration's tariffs and bailouts aren't going to make America great again, they're just going to make it 1929 again."

But Sasse ........ we have already heard countless times that Trump has triggered nuclear war, another holocaust, Hitler and the Nazis, murder of all women, death to all immigrant children, destruction of our democracy, yada yada ... and now the next Depression.

CNN, MSNBC, and MSM have lost the ability to alarm us. They cry wolf every day, all day long.

Nobody listens to these nuts anymore.

When will we hold these doomsday quacks accountable?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

But Sasse ........ we have already heard countless times that Trump has triggered nuclear war, another holocaust, Hitler and the Nazis, murder of all women, death to all immigrant children, destruction of our democracy, yada yada ... and now the next Depression.

CNN, MSNBC, and MSM have lost the ability to alarm us. They cry wolf every day, all day long.

Nobody listens to these nuts anymore.

When will we hold these doomsday quacks accountable?

...asks the newly converted free speech advocate. Lock em all up! What a joke!

[ZNPaaneah]

China has about 1/5 of the world's population that it needs to feed.

However, it only has 8% of the world's arable land, and 20% of that has been polluted.

The US exports $25 billion in food to China.

Now they can slap tariffs on it, they can buy food from other countries, but both of those solutions merely raise the cost of food, they don't decrease the demand.

Also, if China buys $25 billion in food from someone else we'll simply sell our food to new markets at a higher price.

By comparison Trump is putting tariffs on $200 billion in goods that we import from China. It will be much easier for us to weather their tariffs than for them to weather ours. Electronics and beauty aids could all be manufactured in Vietnam, Indonesia, Philippines, etc. If they don't resolve this quickly we could develop new suppliers. China's economy desperately depends on that $200 billion. Even if this only lasts for six months they'll have tens of millions of people out of work and displaced.

His proposed tariffs would raise $20 billion, much more than what he is proposing to give to the farmers to help them out.

This is a battle that we can and should win.

Trump was elected on a platform to address the inequities in the trade policies, that is what he is doing.

[zeek]

“I’ve spoken to Allen Weisselberg about how to set the whole thing up,” Cohen tells Trump. “So, I’m all over that. And, I spoke to Allen about it.”

Trump really is helping to drain the swamp - the one in his own backyard.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/artic...a-bigger-catch

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

China has about 1/5 of the world's population that it needs to feed.

However, it only has 8% of the world's arable land, and 20% of that has been polluted.

The US exports $25 billion in food to China.

Now they can slap tariffs on it, they can buy food from other countries, but both of those solutions merely raise the cost of food, they don't decrease the demand.

Also, if China buys $25 billion in food from someone else we'll simply sell our food to new markets at a higher price.

By comparison Trump is putting tariffs on $200 billion in goods that we import from China. It will be much easier for us to weather their tariffs than for them to weather ours. Electronics and beauty aids could all be manufactured in Vietnam, Indonesia, Philippines, etc. If they don't resolve this quickly we could develop new suppliers. China's economy desperately depends on that $200 billion. Even if this only lasts for six months they'll have tens of millions of people out of work and displaced.

His proposed tariffs would raise $20 billion, much more than what he is proposing to give to the farmers to help them out.

This is a battle that we can and should win.

Trump was elected on a platform to address the inequities in the trade policies, that is what he is doing.

It's a good thing the only country Trump is slapping tariffs on is China. Cuz otherwise he might have started a trade War in which no one benefits ultimately. Right?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

It's a good thing the only country Trump is slapping tariffs on is China. Cuz otherwise he might have started a trade War in which no one benefits ultimately. Right?

The issues with the European union, by comparison are minor, and I imagine will be easily resolved. It would be hypocrisy to try and negotiate with them without putting sanctions on China. But, putting sanctions on China threatens an all out worldwide trade war. Everyone knows that would provoke a worldwide recession.

My guess is (my hope) that many of the countries we are negotiating with will quickly offer some concessions so that both countries can walk away with a "win". Meanwhile that gives us even more leverage to turn the screws on China.

Let's be realistic, if Trump can give $12 or 13 billion to the farmers, that will easily cover them for an entire year. Can China really play hard ball that long?

[awareness]

This just in:

He condemned Bill Clinton, saying he disgraced the office. But those principles he now is willing to compromise for Trump. Methinks, if God's is going to pour out wrath, it will be on Franklin ... and Trump :

Franklin Graham warns ‘media spin masters’ to shut up about Trump’s Playmate payoff or face God’s wrath

"The right-wing Christian has defended Trump’s affair with another mistress, porn actress Stormy Daniels, as “nobody’s business” — although he insisted in 1998 that Bill Clinton’s “sins are not private.”"
https://www.rawstory.com/2018/07/fra...ce-gods-wrath/

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

This just in:

He condemned Bill Clinton, saying he disgraced the office. But those principles he now is willing to compromise for Trump. Methinks, if God's is going to pour out wrath, it will be on Franklin ... and Trump :

Franklin Graham warns ‘media spin masters’ to shut up about Trump’s Playmate payoff or face God’s wrath

"The right-wing Christian has defended Trump’s affair with another mistress, porn actress Stormy Daniels, as “nobody’s business” — although he insisted in 1998 that Bill Clinton’s “sins are not private.”"
https://www.rawstory.com/2018/07/fra...ce-gods-wrath/

Graham apparently didn't receive Jordan Peterson's free speech talking points memo.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

It's a good thing the only country Trump is slapping tariffs on is China. Cuz otherwise he might have started a trade War in which no one benefits ultimately. Right?

You obviously never studied Economics 101.

The US lost the trade war long ago.

Under Obama, the US treated every other nation as our colonial power. He went around apologizing to them all, and allowed them to rob our country blind.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You obviously never studied Economics 101.

The US lost the trade war long ago.

Under Obama, the US treated every other nation as our colonial power. He went around apologizing to them all, and allowed them to rob our country blind.

Did Obama change the trade policies and treaties? If you don't consider the Marshall plan as "robbing our country blind" then it is obvious that at some point we would have to renegotiate these treaties, which is what Trump is doing.

We signed very favorable trade deals with China to encourage them to move from Communist to Capitalist. That was a huge gamble for them and it is only right that we encouraged them.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

It's a good thing the only country Trump is slapping tariffs on is China. Cuz otherwise he might have started a trade War in which no one benefits ultimately. Right?

Shortest Trade War in History Over: President Trump and E.U. Come to Agreement

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Shortest Trade War in History Over: President Trump and E.U. Come to Agreement

The pressure is on China.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Shortest Trade War in History Over: President Trump and E.U. Come to Agreement

So Trump said. But he often gets it wrong ... specially if it makes him look good. Time will tell. Just like his $12 billion farmer welfare promise.

[zeek]

Oh look at that. Weisselberg, the finance guy Cohen mentioned on the tape with Trump has been subpoenaed to testify to the Federal grand jury that should be interesting. He's been working for the Trump family for decades. Bet you he knows a lot about Trump's finances over the years. Follow the money. Tick tock tick tock. Of course Trump knew about the payoff. He lied about that and Sarah Sanders backed him up of course. Cohen said he got tired of being a punching bag.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

Oh look at that. Weisselberg, the finance guy Cohen mentioned on the tape with Trump has been subpoenaed to testify to the Federal grand jury that should be interesting. He's been working for the Trump family for decades. Bet you he knows a lot about Trump's finances over the years. Follow the money. Tick tock tick tock. Of course Trump knew about the payoff. He lied about that and Sarah Sanders backed him up of course. Cohen said he got tired of being a punching bag.

But I caught a Fox pundit excusing Trump with, "Everyone lies about affairs."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Oh look at that. Weisselberg, the finance guy Cohen mentioned on the tape with Trump has been subpoenaed to testify to the Federal grand jury that should be interesting. He's been working for the Trump family for decades. Bet you he knows a lot about Trump's finances over the years. Follow the money. Tick tock tick tock. Of course Trump knew about the payoff. He lied about that and Sarah Sanders backed him up of course. Cohen said he got tired of being a punching bag.

Where's the Russian collusion?

Your post exposes that this was never about the 2016 election. Even you can figure that out.

Muller is a thug, pure and simple, just keep digging until someone "sings and composes." But look what the impeachment did for Bill Clinton.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Where's the Russian collusion?

Your post exposes that this was never about the 2016 election. Even you can figure that out.

Muller is a thug, pure and simple, just keep digging until someone "sings and composes." But look what the impeachment did for Bill Clinton.

Muellar is a conservative republican of long standing.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

But I caught a Fox pundit excusing Trump with, "Everyone lies about affairs."

...and everyone breaks campaign finance laws and tries to avoid getting caught by paying cash like Trump said on the tape. I know I always do that when I'm running for President. I'm like "Campaign finance laws?! Pffft! No big deal! Pay cash. $150 Grand. Weisselberg'll take care of it. Cohen is on it. I got this." That's what say when I break campaign finance laws. After all, everybody does it. That cash thing works real well as long as my lawyer isn't taping me surreptitiously. I hate when that happens. Then I have to get a thug attorney like Giuliani to go on TV and use obfuscation tactics. If I had any shame I would be embarrassed. It's a good thing I don't. Did I mention that everybody's doing this? Clinton Bush Obama everybody.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Muellar is a conservative republican of long standing.

Yeah, that explains why he stacked his entire team with with Trump-hating Democrats like Peter Strzok!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

...and everyone breaks campaign finance laws and tries to avoid getting caught by paying cash like Trump said on the tape. I know I always do that when I'm running for President. I'm like "Campaign finance laws?! Pffft! No big deal! Pay cash. $150 Grand. Weisselberg'll take care of it. Cohen is on it. I got this." That's what say when I break campaign finance laws. After all, everybody does it. That cash thing works real well as long as my lawyer isn't taping me surreptitiously. I hate when that happens. Then I have to get a thug attorney like Giuliani to go on TV and use obfuscation tactics. If I had any shame I would be embarrassed. It's a good thing I don't. Did I mention that everybody's doing this? Clinton Bush Obama everybody.

Giuliani is "America's Mayor."

Hey zeek, you getting a little self-righteous on us? You can now throw the first stone. Your hate bias is coming thru.

And what is the penalty for breaking campaign finance laws?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Giuliani is "America's Mayor."

Hey zeek, you getting a little self-righteous on us? You can now throw the first stone. Your hate bias is coming thru.

And what is the penalty for breaking campaign finance laws?

What happened to "Lock him up? and "Drain the swamp"?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Yeah, that explains why he stacked his entire team with with Trump-hating Democrats like Peter Strzok!

Muellar is investigating the attack on America by Russia. Anyone opposing his investigation is unpatriotic, and is being complicit with Russia.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

Muellar is investigating the attack on America by Russia. Anyone opposing his investigation is unpatriotic, and is being complicit with Russia.

Yeah and upon learning of his text messages, Mueller removed Strzok from the investigation. He's on notice the FBI is going to fire him and he's appealing it according to Federal law. Plus, Congress is reviewing the whole process. Messy, but, the system is working.

[zeek]

Speaking of messy, Cohen reportedly claims the president knew in advance about the infamous 2016 Trump Tower meeting in which Russians had promised his campaign dirt about Hillary Clinton. However, Cohen's legal team insists they did not leak the revelation, raising the possibility it came from the Trump team to weaken Cohen’s bargaining hand should he decide to flip and speak to special counsel Robert Mueller. They are biting and devouring one another, as Paul would say.

[ZNPaaneah]

https://www.yahoo.com/news/amazon-fa...161615378.html

Lock em up!

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Where's the Russian collusion?

Cohen's latest testimony ties Trump to a meeting seeking help from Russia. According to Guiliani there are "no corroborating witnesses" yet some of those who might be witnesses have not denied this, they simply refused to answer the questions.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/michael-c...012322373.html

Giuliani says that Cohen is just not credible! Wow! How uncredible do you have to be for Giuliani to have an issue! Incredible! (This is the guy who assured us repeatedly despite evidence to the contrary that Trump did not know about payments to Stormy Daniels).

[ZNPaaneah]

Can we give Trump credit for all the good things he has done this week?

1. The farmers were suffering from a trade war with China, Trump got them billions of dollars to make up for their losses.

2. There were a lot of kids torn from their parents at the border, Trump got them reunited.

3. Just two weeks ago Europe was an enemy, this week Trump signs a new trade agreement with them, making them allies once again.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Can we give Trump credit for all the good things he has done this week?

1. The farmers were suffering from a trade war with China, Trump got them billions of dollars to make up for their losses.

2. There were a lot of kids torn from their parents at the border, Trump got them reunited.

3. Just two weeks ago Europe was an enemy, this week Trump signs a new trade agreement with them, making them allies once again.

Europe was never an enemy...

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Europe was never an enemy...

Really? I'm pretty sure the President of the US knows better than you.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Can we give Trump credit for all the good things he has done this week?

1. The farmers were suffering from a trade war with China, Trump got them billions of dollars to make up for their losses.

Yeah ... Trump, in order to brag on himself, will lie knowing full well the lie will be broadcasted within days. Take the claim that the EU will be buying soybeans :
EU says farming 'not part' of US trade deal, contradicting Trump
https://www.businesstimes.com.sg/gov...adicting-trump

[awareness]

Bahahahahaha !!!!

Now:

Giuliani: ‘Collusion is not a crime’
http://thehill.com/homenews/administ...is-not-a-crime

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Bahahahahaha !!!!

Now:

Giuliani: ‘Collusion is not a crime’
http://thehill.com/homenews/administ...is-not-a-crime

Brilliant defense strategy. Derivative of the "deny everything" strategy. Can't deny collusion, so deny that collusion is a crime.

The crime was when the Russians hacked the DNC and manipulated the election. Colluding with them was not a crime. This is Alice in Wonderland.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This is Alice in Wonderland.

Can you imagine what it would be like if Obama went thru all this?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Brilliant defense strategy. Derivative of the "deny everything" strategy. Can't deny collusion, so deny that collusion is a crime.

The crime was when the Russians hacked the DNC and manipulated the election. Colluding with them was not a crime. This is Alice in Wonderland.

The DNC colluding with the Russians is not a crime. There is no law on the books.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Can you imagine what it would be like if Obama went thru all this?

Far worse than election fraud ...

Obama administration approved $200G grant to group with Al Qaeda ties

The Obama administration approved a $200,000 grant to a group in Sudan with ties to Al Qaeda even though it had been designated a terrorist-financing organization by the U.S. years earlier, a conservative think tank revealed this week.

Further, an agency official acknowledged the prior administration allowed taxpayer money to flow to the group even after its designation was discovered.

The 2014 grant to the Islamic Relief Agency, through the U.S. Agency for International Development, was revealed by Sam Westrop of the Middle East Forum in a story for the National Review.

“More stunningly, government officials specifically authorized the release of at least $115,000 of this grant even after learning that it was a designated terror organization,” Westrop wrote in the article.

USAID has since reviewed its policies, though the Trump administration stressed this all occurred in the Obama years.

[Ohio]

Five Clues Don Jr.’s Trump Tower Meeting Was Set Up as Democratic Dirty Trick

1 – Rob Goldstone, the English publicist and music manager, admitted that when he wrote Donald Trump Jr. to set up the meeting with a Russian attorney at Trump Tower he used deliberately hyperbolic language to ensure that the meeting took place. In testimony to the Senate Judiciary Committee reviewed in full by Breitbart News, Goldstone further said that he believes the meeting was a “bait and switch” by a Russian lobbyist seeking a meeting on another matter by misleadingly claiming to be bringing the Trump campaign dirt on Hillary Clinton.

2 – All participants in the meeting who have spoken publicly say no Russian dirt on Hillary Clinton was discussed.

3 – Two Russians at the meeting evidenced a larger relationship with Fusion GPS and the controversial firm’s co-founder Glenn Simpson. The Russia collusion conspiracy theory was sparked by the discredited dossier produced by Fusion GPS, which was paid for its anti-Trump work by Trump’s primary political opponents, namely Hillary Clinton’s 2016 presidential campaign and the Democratic National Committee (DNC) via the Perkins Coie law firm.

4 – A key participant at the Trump Tower meeting said that he “knows” Hillary Clinton and has a personal relationship with her that dates back to the late-1990s. Besides describing a direct connection to Clinton, Russian-born Washington lobbyist Rinat Akhmetshin also testified that he “knew some people who worked on” Clinton’s 2016 presidential campaign. Akhmetshin further revealed that the same day of the Trump Tower meeting he met with a Clinton associate after the confab and possibly also just before.

5 – Akhmetshin admits to being present at the same security conference in Canada where Sen. John McCain was reportedly first informed about the anti-Trump dossier. Akhmetshin says he might have spoken to McCain and the senator’s assistant David J. Kramer at the Halifax International Security Forum in 2016.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Can you imagine what it would be like if Obama went thru all this?

Oh please. I work in an area where Obama is revered almost at the same level as the prophet Mohammed. Everyone was stunned, considering it sacrilegious when he was criticized and attacked. I thought that was funny but had the good sense to keep that to myself. Anyone who is elected president in this country is going to have a very well funded political apparatus set up that wants to discredit him and bring him down. If a republican wins then the democrats will go after him, if a democrat wins the republicans.

Beginning with Nixon they started to undermine the power of the press. Today with Trump it is scary, 1984 scary, how they are trying to destroy a free press.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Five Clues Don Jr.’s Trump Tower Meeting Was Set Up as Democratic Dirty Trick

I'm not clear what you are saying.

Trump has denied collusion with the Russians 105 times (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.acda71932350)

Don Jr. said the meeting was about Russian adoption

Kellyanne Conway denied the Trump campaign had links to Carter page

Hope Hicks denied Trump officials met with officials from the Kremlin.

Kellyane Conway said that no one from the campaign met with anyone from Russia who hoped to meddle in the election.

Reince Priebus denied they had any contact.

Sarah Huckabee Sanders said no contact took place.

Sean Spicer said there was no contact.

Don Jr. denied meeting with Russians about the campaign.

But then emails showed that the meeting Don Jr. claimed was about Russian adoption actually was billed as a meeting with compromising information about Clinton.

Cohen says there was a strategy meeting prior to this meeting with the Russians which included Trump.

And now Giuliani says that "collusion is not a crime".

So for two years we have heard every denial in the books about how "there is no collusion", "fake news" and "witch hunt". But now it seems that both Cohen and Manafort are going to confirm that there was in fact collusion, and Giuliani is tasked, not with denying that, but with saying "collusion is not a crime".

We know the Russians hacked the election, we know that this involves a number of crimes (hacking, election fraud, defrauding the American public, etc) and we now have evidence of a conspiracy with the Trump campaign. So what is the defense now? Let's play the name game. Yes, conspiracy to commit a crime is a crime, aiding and abetting a fraud is a crime, obstruction of justice is a crime, but since we haven't used the term "collusion" well, I guess Giuliani is confused.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Oh please. I work in an area where Obama is revered almost at the same level as the prophet Mohammed. Everyone was stunned, considering it sacrilegious when he was criticized and attacked. I thought that was funny but had the good sense to keep that to myself. Anyone who is elected president in this country is going to have a very well funded political apparatus set up that wants to discredit him and bring him down. If a republican wins then the democrats will go after him, if a democrat wins the republicans.

Beginning with Nixon they started to undermine the power of the press. Today with Trump it is scary, 1984 scary, how they are trying to destroy a free press.

It is the extreme left that is destroying the Press.

Trump is right to call out the lies, the bias, and the fake news.

If the Press really cared for their 1st Amendment rights, they would strive for accuracy and all the established principles of real journalism.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I'm not clear what you are saying.

Trump has denied collusion with the Russians 105 times (https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.acda71932350)

Don Jr. said the meeting was about Russian adoption

Kellyanne Conway denied the Trump campaign had links to Carter page

Hope Hicks denied Trump officials met with officials from the Kremlin.

Kellyane Conway said that no one from the campaign met with anyone from Russia who hoped to meddle in the election.

Reince Priebus denied they had any contact.

Sarah Huckabee Sanders said no contact took place.

Sean Spicer said there was no contact.

Don Jr. denied meeting with Russians about the campaign.

But then emails showed that the meeting Don Jr. claimed was about Russian adoption actually was billed as a meeting with compromising information about Clinton.

Cohen says there was a strategy meeting prior to this meeting with the Russians which included Trump.

And now Giuliani says that "collusion is not a crime".

So for two years we have heard every denial in the books about how "there is no collusion", "fake news" and "witch hunt". But now it seems that both Cohen and Manafort are going to confirm that there was in fact collusion, and Giuliani is tasked, not with denying that, but with saying "collusion is not a crime".

We know the Russians hacked the election, we know that this involves a number of crimes (hacking, election fraud, defrauding the American public, etc) and we now have evidence of a conspiracy with the Trump campaign. So what is the defense now? Let's play the name game. Yes, conspiracy to commit a crime is a crime, aiding and abetting a fraud is a crime, obstruction of justice is a crime, but since we haven't used the term "collusion" well, I guess Giuliani is confused.

Little obfuscation anyone?

If someone denies meeting with the "Russians," they are referring to the Russian government, ie the Kremlin.

If they sit down and talk to a Russian, living in America, about Russian adoptions, is that then a lie? During the campaign isn't it to be expected by the Trump Team that Russians in the US were vetted by the Obama Administration? Instead, Obama set up this meeting to frame Trump.

Once again I am surprised that a forensics teacher gets fooled by this stuff.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Little obfuscation anyone?

If someone denies meeting with the "Russians," they are referring to the Russian government, ie the Kremlin.

If they sit down and talk to a Russian, living in America, about Russian adoptions, is that then a lie? During the campaign isn't it to be expected by the Trump Team that Russians in the US were vetted by the Obama Administration? Instead, Obama set up this meeting to frame Trump.

Once again I am surprised that a forensics teacher gets fooled by this stuff.

Good point -- Hope Hicks is all about obfuscation.
Last July, Hope Hicks was with Donald Drumpf aboard Air Force One when they created a statement in response to press inquiries about a mysterious June 2016 meeting at Drumpf Tower between Donald Drumpf Jr., other top campaign officials and a Russian lawyer promising dirt on Hillary Clinton.

The statement said the meeting was about Russian adoptions.

I find this discussion disgusting. For two years you have been claiming "no collusion", now when Cohen testifies that there is collusion and it seems other evidence will fall as well, then Giuliani claims that "collusion is not a crime".

There may be many, many liars outside of Trumps whitehouse, campaign and family. But that is irrelevant. Trump's campaign, his son, his spokespeople, his chief of staff are all proven to be liars, bold faced liars, liars who don't have the slightest respect for the american people.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Good point -- Hope Hicks is all about obfuscation.
Last July, Hope Hicks was with Donald Drumpf aboard Air Force One when they created a statement in response to press inquiries about a mysterious June 2016 meeting at Drumpf Tower between Donald Drumpf Jr., other top campaign officials and a Russian lawyer promising dirt on Hillary Clinton.

The statement said the meeting was about Russian adoptions.

I find this discussion disgusting. For two years you have been claiming "no collusion", now when Cohen testifies that there is collusion and it seems other evidence will fall as well, then Giuliani claims that "collusion is not a crime".

There may be many, many liars outside of Trumps whitehouse, campaign and family. But that is irrelevant. Trump's campaign, his son, his spokespeople, his chief of staff are all proven to be liars, bold faced liars, liars who don't have the slightest respect for the american people.

Welcome to politics my friend!

I found so many liars in the Nobama (I can play with letters too) WH, that I constantly turned them off for my own conscience sake.

Of course, they all lie to gain political advantage, but which side has weaponized our intelligence and justice?

None are so blind as those who refuse to see.

[awareness]

DOJ forms Religious Liberty Task Force to protect freedom of religion

“A dangerous movement, undetected by many, but real, is not challenging and eroding a great tradition of religious freedom,” Mr. Sessions said announcing the task force. “There can be no doubt it’s no little matter. It must be confronted intellectually and politically and defeated.”

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2...-task-force-t/

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

DOJ forms Religious Liberty Task Force to protect freedom of religionanthropogenic

“A dangerous movement, undetected by many, but real, is not challenging and eroding a great tradition of religious freedom,” Mr. Sessions said announcing the task force. “There can be no doubt it’s no little matter. It must be confronted intellectually and politically and defeated.”

https://m.washingtontimes.com/news/2...-task-force-t/

I think there is a typo there. It should say “A dangerous movement, undetected by many, but real, is now challenging and eroding a great tradition of religious freedom...” Right?

[zeek]

@realDonaldTrump who has been repeating "No Collusion" incessantly since 2016 now tweets for the first time that "Collusion is not a crime." Do you see a little shift there? Why would he make that shift today? It couldn't have anything to do with the fact that Trump's campaign manager Paul Manafort is scheduled to testify today, could it?

[zeek]

How long before the first child dies from a 3D plastic gun?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

How long before the first child dies from a 3D plastic gun?

It will happen far later than the first kid killed in a car accident, or that drowned in a pool, or that was killed by a knife. So why no outrage about making cars, pools and knives illegal?

Since a "gun" is dangerous there will certainly be a kid killed by one.

But that isn't the question. The real question is if the US govt actually has the power to make them "illegal".

Do you want 3d printers to be illegal? If not then it would be, for all practical purposes, to make the access to the plans for them to be illegal.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

It will happen far later than the first kid killed in a car accident,

I made this argument about 9/11. 3000 died and panic and alarm resulted in a clamp down on our privacy, and police become military -- the Patriot Act -- like never seen before.

Yet over 40,000 die from car accidents a year, and where's the alarm?

Now more die from opioids each year, than car accidents. There is alarm over that. Now people in real need of pain medication are being denied.

Personally, people can make guns in their garage. And bombs. We're never gonna stop that. (The gun manufacture's are most alarmed over 3D printed guns).

I'm more alarmed over human nature ... and ... the power of mythology & religion. But even Jesus couldn't do anything about that ... so far.

If we reacted to mythology and religion, like we did to 9/11, we would ban all of them forever.

Oh ... I forgot ... religion is protected by the constitution ... like guns. What was our founding fathers thinkin'?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

If we reacted to mythology and religion, like we did to 9/11, we would ban all of them forever.

Spoken like a true...Stalinist.

Oh ... I forgot ... religion is protected by the constitution ... like guns. What was our founding fathers thinkin'?

Maybe they were thinking that since we don't have all the answers we should keep an open mind and an open system to allow for pursuit of the truth. Religionists and anti-religionists who think they have all the answers never want to do that.

[zeek]

According to the New York Times the Trump Administration is mulling over another unilateral tax cut for the rich. They say a proposal under consideration at the Treasury Department would bypass Congress and use federal regulation to index capital gains for inflation, a $100 billion boost for high earners. Do you think the rich need another tax cut? I don't.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

How long before the first child dies from a 3D plastic gun?

How long before the first 3D gun takes out a terrorist?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

How long before the first 3D gun takes out a terrorist?

Which will come first, dead child or dead terrorist? And, more importantly what will be the ratio of dead children to dead terrorists? What is the ratio of dead children to dead terrorsts by guns in America today? We can use that as a baseline. Oh, I forgot, you only care about the unborn. Sorry.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

Which will come first, dead child or dead terrorist? And, more importantly what will be the ratio of dead children to dead terrorists? What is the ratio of dead children to dead terrorsts by guns in America today? We can use that as a baseline. Oh, I forgot, you only care about the unborn. Sorry.

Don't ever forget that I do care for the unborn.

Totally pathetic that you care nothing about them.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Don't ever forget that I do care for the unborn.

Totally pathetic that you care nothing about them.

You're not big on the born though, I notice.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Don't ever forget that I do care for the unborn.

Then I guess it all boils down to, who controls a woman's womb.?????

[awareness]

Trump to Attorney General Jeff Sessions: Stop Mueller probe 'right now'

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Which will come first, dead child or dead terrorist? And, more importantly what will be the ratio of dead children to dead terrorists? What is the ratio of dead children to dead terrorsts by guns in America today? We can use that as a baseline. Oh, I forgot, you only care about the unborn. Sorry.

Why not outlaw internet trolls? How about cancer, make that illegal?

The point is please tell us how the US government is going to actually enforce this law?

You would have to outlaw 3d printers, censor the entire internet, and prohibit travel outside of the US. Is that what you are saying the govt should do? If not, how exactly does the US govt outlaw downloadable plans that would work on a 3d printer?

Also, if there is no rifling on these guns they are not going to be anymore accurate than a zip gun which anyone can make, and can make out of plastic if they choose. So then, how is this any worse than zip guns which are a tiny fraction of the cost of these things?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Why not outlaw internet trolls? How about cancer, make that illegal?

The point is please tell us how the US government is going to actually enforce this law?

You would have to outlaw 3d printers, censor the entire internet, and prohibit travel outside of the US. Is that what you are saying the govt should do? If not, how exactly does the US govt outlaw downloadable plans that would work on a 3d printer?

Also, if there is no rifling on these guns they are not going to be anymore accurate than a zip gun which anyone can make, and can make out of plastic if they choose. So then, how is this any worse than zip guns which are a tiny fraction of the cost of these things?

Great argument, bro. Why did Moses bother bringing the 10 commandments down the mountain? Those laws didn't stop murder or the other nine crimes on the tablets. By your reasoning God was just wasting our precious time by listing laws that were not enforceable. If children kill themselves or blow their hands off with defective 3-D plastic guns, that's their problem. Nothing society can do about it. You have come up with many, sometimes far-fetched ideas to solve all kinds of other problems on this forum. But, on this issue, you acquiesce helplessly . I wonder why?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Great argument, bro. Why did Moses bother bringing the 10 commandments down the mountain? Those laws didn't stop murder or the other nine crimes on the tablets. By your reasoning God was just wasting our precious time by listing laws that were not enforceable. If children kill themselves or blow their hands off with defective 3-D plastic guns, that's their problem. Nothing society can do about it. You have come up with many, sometimes far-fetched ideas to solve all kinds of other problems on this forum. But, on this issue, you acquiesce helplessly . I wonder why?

No one has convinced me it is an issue, that is why. If someone wants to sell the plastic gun then by all means we can have regulations to make sure it isn't going to blow up in your hand. But we sell all kinds of dangerous things, even things that do blow up in your hand (ask Pierre Paul on the Giants). A pdf file on the internet that gives instructions to a 3d printer is not one of them. When I look at these plastic guns they look stupid. They are bulky (so harder to hide). Don't work as well, cost thousands of dollars (when the cost of the printer is factored in) which is much, much more than a far more effective gun. They will almost certainly last far less than a typical metal gun, and probably jam and deform much easier. To my knowledge they don't have rifling so they are far less accurate. Like I said, you can make a zip gun for less than $100 which would work every bit as well as one of these. Also, they are not able to be snuck past a metal detector because you still need metal bullets and a metal firing pin. The idea that these are "ghost" guns is to me very disingenuous. If someone used a plastic gun made on a 3d printer I think it would be far easier to trace than any other gun (how many people have these printers? check the computer record, did they download the plans, did the printer print one of these). A zip gun is a real "ghost" gun and the US has no way to make them illegal. Therefore if I was the US govt I would prefer a criminal to use a 3d gun over a zip gun. So then is there any reason why a criminal would want one of these toy guns? I can't think why. How about an assassin or terrorist? Maybe the underwear bomber who had an IQ of 80, but can't think of anyone else.

On the flip side censoring the internet and searching everyones computers and flash drives seems an incredibly high price to pay to keep these out of the US, and even if you did that it wouldn't work.

And it is wrong to say that we cannot enforce laws against murder and theft.

[awareness]

As McConnell said in 1999:

[The president’s] decisions have led the United States Senate to its own critical crossroads. And now we must choose our path. We can do the right thing. Or we can lower our standards and allow [the president] to cling to public office ― regardless of the consequences to our nation, to our system of justice, and to our future generations...

So what will we do this day? Will we rise above or will we sink below? Will we condone this president’s conduct or will we condemn it? Will we change our standards or will we change our president?

I guess with Trump Mitch will change his standards.

[zeek]

In the last five days, President Trump has thanked Kim Jong-un of North Korea for his “nice letter,” reminisced about his “great meeting” with President Vladimir V. Putin of Russia and offered to meet Iran’s president, Hassan Rouhani, without any preconditions.

During those same five days, the Treasury Department imposed sanctions on a Russian bank accused of helping North Korea with weapons-related activities. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo listed stringent preconditions for any engagement with Iran. And the administration’s top intelligence and law enforcement officials vowed to combat Russian interference in the midterm elections, while Senate Republicans pushed a bill that would impose harsh new sanctions on Moscow.

There is Mr. Trump’s foreign policy, and then there is the foreign policy of the rest of the Trump administration, backed by the Republican Party. This week, the two were openly at odds with each other. Be it Russia, NATO, Iran or North Korea, Mr. Trump’s staff and his party projected a radically different message than the president himself.

On Thursday, the White House produced an array of top officials to dramatize the (Russian) threat and explain the nation’s countermeasures. The president was conspicuously absent. Yet at a rally in Pennsylvania hours later, Mr. Trump dismissed the special counsel’s investigation of Russian interference as a “hoax” that was impeding his efforts to nurture a constructive relationship with the Russian president. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/03/u...39ries&ref=cta

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

There is Mr. Trump’s foreign policy, and then there is the foreign policy of the rest of the Trump administration, backed by the Republican Party. This week, the two were openly at odds with each other. Be it Russia, NATO, Iran or North Korea, Mr. Trump’s staff and his party projected a radically different message than the president himself.

On Thursday, the White House produced an array of top officials to dramatize the (Russian) threat and explain the nation’s countermeasures. The president was conspicuously absent. Yet at a rally in Pennsylvania hours later, Mr. Trump dismissed the special counsel’s investigation of Russian interference as a “hoax” that was impeding his efforts to nurture a constructive relationship with the Russian president. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/03/u...39ries&ref=cta

zeek's blind and willful ignorance on full display here colluding with the NYTimes.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

zeek's blind and willful ignorance on full display here colluding with the NYTimes.

When Trump says "no collusion," he means he's not colluding with his national intelligence, or even with his own aids.

[zeek]

"Putin’s Russia is creating a new Reactionary International built around nationalism, a critique of modernity and a disdain for liberal democracy. "

"Its central mission includes wrecking the Western alliance and the European Union by undermining a shared commitment to democratic values. "

"Putin saw that what he and parts of the right share is a hatred of liberalism."

https://lacrossetribune.com/opinion/...d210fa471.html

Trump was recruited by Russian intelligence and is following Putin's script.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

When Trump says "no collusion," he means he's not colluding with his national intelligence, or even with his own aids.

With comments like this, posting here is a total waste of time.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

"Putin’s Russia is creating a new Reactionary International built around nationalism, a critique of modernity and a disdain for liberal democracy. "

"Its central mission includes wrecking the Western alliance and the European Union by undermining a shared commitment to democratic values. "

"Putin saw that what he and parts of the right share is a hatred of liberalism."

https://lacrossetribune.com/opinion/...d210fa471.html

Trump was recruited by Russian intelligence and is following Putin's script.

Putin's Russia is built around nationalism?

Stupidest thing I ever heard! Every nation on earth was built around nationalism. The Declaration of Independence resounds with "NATIONALISM."

Have you guys lost your minds?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Putin's Russia is built around nationalism?

Stupidest thing I ever heard! Every nation on earth was built around nationalism. The Declaration of Independence resounds with "NATIONALISM."

Have you guys lost your minds?

I see what you did there taking the word nationalism out of the context.

So while you claim to be a student of history you're ignorant of the downside of nationalism. Really?

And you are unaware that the American Revolution began as a protest against the abuses of power of King George not as nationalistic fervor? Are you also unaware of the role of nationalism in the world wars of the 20th century?

You are perhaps aware that Trump has made globalism a dirty word. In his Twitter attack he called Charles Koch a former political Ally a globalist.

As a Christian Fundamentalist your sympathy with Putin's anti modernity is understandable, and of course your mentor theocrat Witness Lee was no fan of liberal democracy.

Did you notice how Trump attacked NATO and the European Union before his Infamous secret meeting with Putin in Helsinki? Even Secretary of State Pompeo can't say what transpired in that meeting which was supposedly conducted on behalf of the interests of the United States. If you believe that you've taken it on faith.

Free Speech Advocate that you are did you rejoice when the judge in Paul Manafort trial forbade the prosecution from using the term Russian oligarch which is exactly what those Russians are?

Nixon was a crook but at least he wasn't a traitor like Trump. Putin shares your hatred of liberalism. He shares Trump's hatred for the Free Press guaranteed by the First Amendment of the United States Constitution. So to be called crazy by you is an honor bro. thanks

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

I see what you did there taking the word nationalism out of the context.

So while you claim to be a student of history you're ignorant of the downside of nationalism. Really?

And you are unaware that the American Revolution began as a protest against the abuses of power of King George not as nationalistic fervor? Are you also unaware of the role of nationalism in the world wars of the 20th century?

You are perhaps aware that Trump has made globalism a dirty word. In his Twitter attack he called Charles Koch a former political Ally a globalist.

As a Christian Fundamentalist your sympathy with Putin's anti modernity is understandable, and of course your mentor theocrat Witness Lee was no fan of liberal democracy.

Did you notice how Trump attacked NATO and the European Union before his Infamous secret meeting with Putin in Helsinki? Even Secretary of State Pompeo can't say what transpired in that meeting which was supposedly conducted on behalf of the interests of the United States. If you believe that you've taken it on faith.

Free Speech Advocate that you are did you rejoice when the judge in Paul Manafort trial forbade the prosecution from using the term Russian oligarch which is exactly what those Russians are?

Nixon was a crook but at least he wasn't a traitor like Trump. Putin shares your hatred of liberalism. He shares Trump's hatred for the Free Press guaranteed by the First Amendment of the United States Constitution. So to be called crazy by you is an honor bro. thanks

You are welcome!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Have you guys lost your minds?

What guys who?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

zeek's blind and willful ignorance on full display here colluding with the NYTimes.

Sorry, it is not collusion. Some top level Republican explained this to me. Apparently it is only collusion if you do it secretly, if you are very public and open about collusion and obstruction of justice, then it can't be a crime because you wouldn't have been so open and transparent about it.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Nixon was a crook but at least he wasn't a traitor like Trump. Putin shares your hatred of liberalism. He shares Trump's hatred for the Free Press guaranteed by the First Amendment of the United States Constitution. So to be called crazy by you is an honor bro. thanks

Who would have thought that "draining the swamp" would include restoring Nixon's reputation.

[awareness]

Don Lemon responds to Trump attack on Lebron

That's right. Trump has nothing better to do than to attack a couple of black guys.

http://thehill.com/homenews/media/40...the-real-dummy

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Who would have thought that "draining the swamp" would include restoring Nixon's reputation.

Let me be clear. Trump not the media is the Enemy of the State.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Let me be clear. Trump not the media is the Enemy of the State.

Tell that to Will Smith

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Sorry, it is not collusion. Some top level Republican explained this to me. Apparently it is only collusion if you do it secretly, if you are very public and open about collusion and obstruction of justice, then it can't be a crime because you wouldn't have been so open and transparent about it.

Hillary paid for the Dirty Dossier put together by Chris Steele, but since she dwells in the stratosphere above the Law, it is not collusion with the Russians.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hillary paid for the Dirty Dossier put together by Chris Steele, but since she dwells in the stratosphere above the Law, it is not collusion with the Russians.

Every single political campaign at this level employs private investigators to dig dirt on their opponents. If Trump has ties to Russia and is compromised we, the American voter, needed to know that before the election.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Every single political campaign at this level employs private investigators to dig dirt on their opponents. If Trump has ties to Russia and is compromised we, the American voter, needed to know that before the election.

Hilary et. al. have proven ties to Putin and Russia thru the Rosacom Uranium One transactions which brought the Clinton Foundation hundreds of millions of dollars and then you say it is good to investigate Trump.

Yet we have not seen one piece of evidence connecting Trump to election interference! Manafort's crimes are tax evasion going back 10-15 years when he was in cahoots with the Podesta group, who by the way have immunity.

With forensics guys like you, I would prefer the keystone cops.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Tell that to Will Smith

No, Steven Seagal.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

With forensics guys like you, I would prefer the keystone cops.

It is a common misunderstanding about forensic guys based on these cop shows on TV where the crime is solved in the 20 minutes given to a 30 min show.

I just finished reading about the investigation that brought down the Silk Road, a billion dollar dark web version of Amazon.com.

Unlike most criminals, this guy was very smart, Phd in physics smart. And, unlike most criminals he built the entire site himself with almost no outside help. Only two people knew he had anything to do with it and he really minimized how much they knew. Also, he used the TOR network and onion routing which is designed to be untraceable. Transactions were done in bitcoin, also untraceable.

Yet here is the thing, regardless of how smart you are and how careful you are everyone leaves traces. He left a tiny little trace of himself when he first started because he was the first reference to the Silk Road on the internet.

That one little mistake was enough for the "keystone cops" to catch him.

Second problem is that he was very well coached on how to avoid prosecution if he ever were caught. He never left his computer open and when it was closed it was encrypted. All he had to do was hit one key on the keypad and it would be encrypted. Since all the evidence of him being a criminal was on that laptop the cops had to arrest him with the laptop open to every single area of the site.

Yet the cops caught him and got his laptop and were able to take down every key player in the site.

But here is the common misunderstanding, they didn't do it in 20 minutes, it took two years of this guy being on their most wanted list. Baltimore Pd, FBI, DEA, IRS and Homeland security were all involved. That is not how long it took to convict him, only how long it took to find and arrest him. The trial itself probably added another year to that.

When Bozo's like Trump are screaming that Mueller is on a "witch hunt" it demonstrates that they are clueless about how a forensic investigation is carried out. It can take years.

But after everyone was arrested and the site was shut down and the IRS was doing their analysis guess what. They discovered two dirty cops who were acting as informants and getting paid hundreds of thousands of dollars. On the one hand these investigations take longer than people think it should take, on the other hand they wind up getting every single criminal and every single crime.

[awareness]

QAnon ..... bahahahahahaha ... Trump supporters ??????? A crazy bunch.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

When Bozo's like Trump are screaming that Mueller is on a "witch hunt" it demonstrates that they are clueless about how a forensic investigation is carried out. It can take years.

Crazy like a fox that is. Whenever he says stuff, he's undermining the investigation and stirring up his troops of faithful believers like Ohio.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Crazy like a fox that is. Whenever he says stuff, he's undermining the investigation and stirring up his troops of faithful believers like Ohio.

I think he has stirred up many more than just his "faithful believers". This last swipe he took at Lebron was like hitting a hornets nest. Even his wife and daughter are publicly standing against him.

His minions have had to walk back his statements saying that we should ignore his tweets (because otherwise it is clearly obstruction of justice) but in so doing they are telling us to ignore POTUS, that trivializes him and makes him a byword. In addition even top Republicans come out publicly and make it clear that Mueller's investigation is not a witch hunt, is valid and should continue.

Crazy like a fox or crazy like a cornered dog?

It seems certain that Manafort is going down for fraud and tax evasion. One wonders if Manafort has anything he can offer up on Trump to reduce his sentence. Banion has made it clear that there was 0% chance that Trump was not aware of that meeting with Russians, hence that public comment supports Cohen. All they will need is one more person who refused to respond to confirm this. What is clear is that Cohen is flipping and if anyone has dirt on Trump it is Cohen. Do not trivialize some of that dirt, it could easily be the reason that his wife and daughter are beginning to distance themselves from him. Also, it looks like Don Jr. might be an easier target than Trump. Will he really sacrifice his own son to save himself?

Also, this last summit with Putin has many, many high level officials and Republicans expressing concern that the Russians have compromised Trump. National security is one valid reason to override political alliance.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

When Bozo's like Trump are screaming that Mueller is on a "witch hunt" it demonstrates that they are clueless about how a forensic investigation is carried out. It can take years.

Forgive me if I miss the connection. These guys just went digging for years because they had nothing else to do? What was the crime on Silk Road?? Why dig in the first place?

The only crime was that Trump won the election against all odds.

Show me another case where the Feds went digging for years to find a crime, when there was no crime in the first place?

Why don't the Feds investigate you or zeek? If they spend enough time or money, they will find something. They might have to go back 5, 10, 20, 30, 40 years but they will find something.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I think he has stirred up many more than just his "faithful believers". This last swipe he took at Lebron was like hitting a hornets nest. Even his wife and daughter are publicly standing against him.

His minions have had to walk back his statements saying that we should ignore his tweets (because otherwise it is clearly obstruction of justice) but in so doing they are telling us to ignore POTUS, that trivializes him and makes him a byword. In addition even top Republicans come out publicly and make it clear that Mueller's investigation is not a witch hunt, is valid and should continue.

Crazy like a fox or crazy like a cornered dog?

It seems certain that Manafort is going down for fraud and tax evasion. One wonders if Manafort has anything he can offer up on Trump to reduce his sentence. Banion has made it clear that there was 0% chance that Trump was not aware of that meeting with Russians, hence that public comment supports Cohen. All they will need is one more person who refused to respond to confirm this. What is clear is that Cohen is flipping and if anyone has dirt on Trump it is Cohen. Do not trivialize some of that dirt, it could easily be the reason that his wife and daughter are beginning to distance themselves from him. Also, it looks like Don Jr. might be an easier target than Trump. Will he really sacrifice his own son to save himself?

Also, this last summit with Putin has many, many high level officials and Republicans expressing concern that the Russians have compromised Trump. National security is one valid reason to override political alliance.

Hilary and Obama met with the Russians. How is that a crime?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hilary and Obama met with the Russians. How is that a crime?

It depends on the content of the meeting. Under the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act of 2002 its a crime for a foreign national to spend money to influence a federal election. And if a U.S. citizen coordinates, conspires or assists in that spending, that's a crime too.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hilary and Obama met with the Russians. How is that a crime?

Yes but because Trump has harped on collusion thousands of times, we know that it was collusion. Otherwise why bring it up so much?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

It depends on the content of the meeting. Under the Bipartisan Campaign Reform Act of 2002 its a crime for a foreign national to spend money to influence a federal election. And if a U.S. citizen coordinates, conspires or assists in that spending, that's a crime too.

She conspired to sell our Uranium assets to the Russians for hundreds of millions in donations to her foundation. Her crimes are thousand times worse than Manafort's.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Yes but because Trump has harped on collusion thousands of times, we know that it was collusion. Otherwise why bring it up so much?

Huh?

Treason, selling American intelligence, etc. Crimes which your favorite Trump hating Press refuses to cover.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Huh?

Treason, selling American intelligence, etc. Crimes which your favorite Trump hating Press refuses to cover.

Trump calls it collusion. He must know.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Forgive me if I miss the connection. These guys just went digging for years because they had nothing else to do? What was the crime on Silk Road?? Why dig in the first place?

The crime on the Silk road was that American citizens could purchase illegal substances on the internet and have them shipped via US mail to their home.

The crimes that this recent investigation has uncovered have only recently begun to surface. Manafort is being tried for tax evasion and fraud. 12 Russians have been indicted for fraud, hacking and tampering with our election. Cohen is clearly facing the possibility of life in prison (for all practical purposes) hence his willingness to flip. There are other members of Trump's campaign that will also be tried or else will cut deals. Now it looks like Don Jr. will be charged as well.

The crimes we are looking at are foreign powers interfering with the US election for president and possible collusion with the Trump campaign to influence the election. If other crimes are discovered that are outside the purview of Mueller, he will refer them to the proper authorities (NYS DA, etc.) That is standard practice. We don't wink at evil simply because it is not in our jurisdiction (if you see something, say something).

There may also be evidence that is uncovered that is not a crime, as in the Stormy Daniels case but may benefit those involved in civil suits.

The reason we are digging is that America wants to trust in the process of electing a president and trust that the president we have has not been bought by a foreign entity.

Although I would hate to think that Mueller looking through 20 years of my past, Zeek's past or even your past would find anything but a shining example of Jesus Christ, I do agree with you that most billionaires would be terrified to have Mueller looking through 20 years of their past. But, Trump is not like most anything.

[Ohio]

FAR LEFT MOBS RIOT In 3 Major US Cities — NOT ONE Mainstream Outlet Reports on the Widespread Leftist Violence

Far left violent Antifa mobs rioted in three Major US cities this past weekend.
Antifa mobs attacked police and conservatives in Portland, Providence and Berkeley.
Antifa cracked skulls and beat protesters and attacked grandmothers in Portland, Oregon on Saturday.

They still talk and distort Charlottesville, VA but mum's the word when their own are violent.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

FAR LEFT MOBS RIOT In 3 Major US Cities — NOT ONE Mainstream Outlet Reports on the Widespread Leftist Violence

Far left violent Antifa mobs rioted in three Major US cities this past weekend.
Antifa mobs attacked police and conservatives in Portland, Providence and Berkeley.
Antifa cracked skulls and beat protesters and attacked grandmothers in Portland, Oregon on Saturday.

They still talk and distort Charlottesville, VA but mum's the word when their own are violent.

I've been reading about this for days. All the news outlets have been reporting on it.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

I've been reading about this for days. All the news outlets have been reporting on it.

The link didn't work for me, but I did see on the news about the antifa mob and the pro Trump mob facing off and that the antifa protest was in response to the Trump rally.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The link didn't work for me, but I did see on the news about the antifa mob and the pro Trump mob facing off and that the antifa protest was in response to the Trump rally.

Do you support ANTIFA taking away the 1A rights of Trump supporters to rally?

Rap Sheet: ***544** Acts of Media-Approved Violence and Harassment Against Trump Supporters

The evidence is overwhelming: To support the Progressive Left is to support violence and taking away our free speech rights.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Do you support ANTIFA taking away the 1A rights of Trump supporters to rally?

No, why would you ask?

[awareness]

This seems so Jesus like to me. These UUs seem to be real Christians:

Arizona clergy call activists to support migrants on border

Arizona clergy are calling activists to gather this weekend at the state’s border with Mexico and leave large jugs of water on remote trails for migrants who continue to cross the desert during the dangerously hot summer.

https://www.apnews.com/e9db10622f294...ants-on-border

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

No, why would you ask?

Obviously that is the logical conclusion of one who reads your posts.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

This seems so Jesus like to me. These UUs seem to be real Christians:

Arizona clergy call activists to support migrants on border

Arizona clergy are calling activists to gather this weekend at the state’s border with Mexico and leave large jugs of water on remote trails for migrants who continue to cross the desert during the dangerously hot summer.

https://www.apnews.com/e9db10622f294...ants-on-border

What if I left food and water on your property to entice trespassers and squatters, would you then consider me a "real" Christian?

[Ohio]

Democrat Senator from Connecticut, Chris Murphy: ‘Survival of Our Democracy’ Depends on Banning Conservative Websites From Social Media' because they "destroy our democracy."

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Do you support ANTIFA taking away the 1A rights of Trump supporters to rally?

Rap Sheet: ***544** Acts of Media-Approved Violence and Harassment Against Trump Supporters

The evidence is overwhelming: To support the Progressive Left is to support violence and taking away our free speech rights.

History shows that in large scale political conflicts there are usually some on both sides that resort to violence. Who but a bias partisan would maintain that violence came only from his opposition?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Democrat Senator from Connecticut, Chris Murphy: ‘Survival of Our Democracy’ Depends on Banning Conservative Websites From Social Media' because they "destroy our democracy."

"No company is compelled to smear the reputations of dead kids' parents [is that an approved conservative tactic?], and no elected official (even Democrats) are required to stand idly by."

Colorful graphic mistakes plurality for division.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Obviously that is the logical conclusion of one who reads your posts.

No problem, just direct me to any post that I wrote that would logically lead to that conclusion and I'll rectify that.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

What if I left food and water on your property to entice trespassers and squatters, would you then consider me a "real" Christian?

If they were people, human beings, that needed help, YES! I don't know about subhumans. Are those coming in subhuman? What color are they?

[awareness]

Here's a word from George Soros, about Corey Stewart, GOP running for senate in Virginia :

Virginia GOP Senate Candidate Says He's 'Very Proud' the State Joined the Confederacy During the Civil War

https://www.alternet.org/news-amp-po...ederacy-during

That's racism ... not even trying to hide. Proud of it actually. Campaigning on it, for the white vote.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Here's a word from George Soros, about Corey Stewart, GOP running for senate in Virginia :

Virginia GOP Senate Candidate Says He's 'Very Proud' the State Joined the Confederacy During the Civil War

https://www.alternet.org/news-amp-po...ederacy-during

That's racism ... not even trying to hide. Proud of it actually. Campaigning on it, for the white vote.

The civil war was not simply about slavery, it was also about State's rights versus Federal govt's power. It was also about the change from an agricultural society to an industrial one. It is insulting, simplistic and wrong to say those in the North were fighting to abolish slavery and those in the South were fighting to preserve it.

When the decision to join the confederacy was made that was certainly not the only factor in the decision. There is overwhelming evidence that many in the North were every bit as racist as many in the South. Many in the North were very clear that they were not fighting to abolish slavery, therefore it is ridiculous to conclude that those in the South had to be fighting to keep it. Likewise, 75% of those in the South did not own slaves, and only about 5% owned more than two. It is naive to think that 75% of those in the South were willing to die so that plantation owners could keep their plantation.

This suggestion that the South was racist and the North was not is divisive. If the South is so racist why did so many freed slaves stay? The reality in the South, just like the North, is that about a third of the people are fleshly, a third are spiritual and about a third are in between.

It is also very possible that the monster created (US Federal govt) can end up committing more heinous crimes than even the South did. I am not excusing the sins of the South, only cautioning against the arrogance of those in the North with their "holier than thou" attitude.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I am not excusing the sins of the South, only cautioning against the arrogance of those in the North with their "holier than thou" attitude.

Yeah, and John Brown wasn't an abolitionist, neither was the underground rail road, nor the Federal Act. And the Southern Baptist's were formed against slavery.

And: "Corey Stewart, the Republican nominee for a U.S. Senate seat in Virginia, praised former slave-state Virignia's secession effort in 1861 to protect slavery."

[awareness]

A closer look at America’s rapidly growing religious ‘nones’

Religiously UnaffiliatedReligious “nones” – a shorthand we use to refer to people who self-identify as atheists or agnostics, as well as those who say their religion is “nothing in particular” – now make up roughly 23% of the U.S. adult population. This is a stark increase from 2007, the last time a similar Pew Research study was conducted, when 16% of Americans were “nones.” (During this same time period, Christians have fallen from 78% to 71%.)

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...ligious-nones/

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Yeah, and John Brown wasn't an abolitionist, neither was the underground rail road, nor the Federal Act. And the Southern Baptist's were formed against slavery.

And: "Corey Stewart, the Republican nominee for a U.S. Senate seat in Virginia, praised former slave-state Virignia's secession effort in 1861 to protect slavery."

The quotation marks you put in could be misinterpreted to be quoting Corey Stewart, they weren't, they were quoting the author* of the article.

This is his quote: "But it's also the state of Robert E. Lee, and Stonewall Jackson, and J.E.B. Stuart. Because, at the base of it, Virginians, we think for ourselves," he said. "And if the established order is wrong, we rebel. We did that in the Revolution, we did it in the Civil War, and we're doing it today. We're doing it today because they're trying to rob us of everything that we hold dear: our history, our heritage, our culture."

Once again, my point is very simple, Robert E. Lee and Stonewall Jackson were two of America's greatest generals on the battlefield and I have no issue with someone from Virginia being proud of them. Not to mention George Washington and some of the other names he mentioned.

I think the South and the entire US had very heinous sins to atone for as a result of slavery and the Civil war is the cost we paid for that unrighteousness and sin.

That said, the claim that someone from Virginia is a racist because they are proud to be from Virginia is repulsive.

*Chris Sosa, the author of the article is clearly a very biased reporter. One article of his refers to the "Trump cult" and "magical thinking". Another says that the Trump GOP is the modern day KKK and that the grand wizard is in the Whitehouse. A third talks about Trump's mental decline as being obvious and undeniable. A fourth says that Nixon was never publicly unhinged like Trump. This article says that a man running for public office in Virginia and who is unashamed to be from Virginia, even proud to be from Virginia must a racist. Let the reader beware.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Obviously that is the logical conclusion of one who reads your posts.

Again, I have not found a single post of mine that supports Antifa, so please help me out (there are over 5,000 posts), what post are you referring to?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The link didn't work for me, but I did see on the news about the antifa mob and the pro Trump mob facing off and that the antifa protest was in response to the Trump rally.

Here you called the Trump rally a "mob" but referred to the real antifa mob -- now with hundreds of attacks on citizens in public eateries -- as protests, as if those are normal 1A actions.

Namcy Pelosi and Maxine Waters have incited their base to violent protest. The recent breakfast attack in Philly on Candace Owens and Charlie Kirk shows that the Left is now using orchestrated social media in all the major cities to target and harass conservatives.

Whether you like it or not, this culture war is forcing everyone to choose sides.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

If they were people, human beings, that needed help, YES! I don't know about subhumans. Are those coming in subhuman? What color are they?

What are subhumans? This post makes no sense.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

What are subhumans? This post makes no sense.

Put your thinking cap on brother. Trump has called 'em animals. It's an old motif. Demonizing those that aren't in our tribe is how we keep them out. In other words, we have to depict them as subhuman ... and even keep their children in cages like animals.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Put your thinking cap on brother. Trump has called 'em animals. It's an old motif. Demonizing those that aren't in our tribe is how we keep them out. In other words, we have to depict them as subhuman ... and even keep their children in cages like animals.

This is quite deceptive. WHO IS "THEM?"

Trump called MS13 animals. Have you not read how they murder their victims? Twist the facts and believe a lie?

It was the Obama Admin that put kids in cages. That widely circulated pic was from 2014. Typical media smear job, eh?

This one post of yours is proof positive of our biased media. Unfortunately, what you hold so dear, are just falsehoods.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Put your thinking cap on brother. Trump has called 'em animals. It's an old motif. Demonizing those that aren't in our tribe is how we keep them out. In other words, we have to depict them as subhuman ... and even keep their children in cages like animals.

This one post seems to characterize all I have been saying about fake news media and the progressives who drink their Kool-Aid. You don't think about what they tell you, rather look down at conservatives as thought-less followers of Trump who need to put on their "thinking cap."

• Obama put these children in "cages," yet no one said a word
• The media had pics of these cages in 2014, yet kept silent
• The media used this pic to smear Trump, and you believed it
• Media acts like this policy started under Trump
• Media smears Trump every day inciting antifa groups to action
• Why not, since Obama was your savior and Trump is Hitler

Secondly ...

• Obama opened the borders allowing unvetted MS-13 gangs to spread like wildfire
• The media keeps quiet about criminal activities of illegal immigrants
• The media promotes sanctuary cities as "real love"
• But no "real love" for citizen victims like Kate Steinle
• Trump highlights the dangers of these policies, citing the need for border security
• Discussing the dangers, Trump calls tatted MS-13 gang members "animals"
• Media distorts his word, saying Trump calls all immigrants "animals"
• You believe these media lies and keep gulping the Kool-Aid
• You then join in to condemn all Trump supporters with the same lies inventing new words like "subhuman"

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This one post seems to characterize all I have been saying about fake news media and the progressives who drink their Kool-Aid. You don't think about what they tell you, rather look down at conservatives as thought-less followers of Trump who need to put on their "thinking cap."

• Obama put these children in "cages," yet no one said a word
• The media had pics of these cages in 2014, yet kept silent
• The media used this pic to smear Trump, and you believed it
• Media acts like this policy started under Trump
• Media smears Trump every day inciting antifa groups to action
• Why not, since Obama was your savior and Trump is Hitler

Secondly ...

• Obama opened the borders allowing unvetted MS-13 gangs to spread like wildfire
• The media keeps quiet about criminal activities of illegal immigrants
• The media promotes sanctuary cities as "real love"
• But no "real love" for citizen victims like Kate Steinle
• Trump highlights the dangers of these policies, citing the need for border security
• Discussing the dangers, Trump calls tatted MS-13 gang members "animals"
• Media distorts his word, saying Trump calls all immigrants "animals"
• You believe these media lies and keep gulping the Kool-Aid
• You then join in to condemn all Trump supporters with the same lies inventing new words like "subhuman"

Goodness! I guess I struck a nerve.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Goodness! I guess I struck a nerve.

What a copout.

Put your thinking cap on and address the facts.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

What a copout.

Put your thinking cap on and address the facts.

Are you talking about the MAGA cap?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Here you called the Trump rally a "mob" but referred to the real antifa mob -- now with hundreds of attacks on citizens in public eateries -- as protests, as if those are normal 1A actions.

Namcy Pelosi and Maxine Waters have incited their base to violent protest. The recent breakfast attack in Philly on Candace Owens and Charlie Kirk shows that the Left is now using orchestrated social media in all the major cities to target and harass conservatives.

Whether you like it or not, this culture war is forcing everyone to choose sides.

I see your error in logic here. Referring to a Trump "mob" does not logically equate to support for Antifa, though the mistake might have been understandable had the quote not also referred to the Antifa as a "mob" as well.

Logically speaking you cannot possibly be offended by the reference to the "Trump mob" and then at the same time logically equate my reference to the Antifa mob as support.

The definition of mob is -- a large crowd of people, especially one that is disorderly and intent on causing trouble or violence.

Yes, it is fair to say that many of Trump's rallies do not fit that description, but you cannot possibly say that they all don't. Especially the ones with maniacs driving their car through the protesters.

Nor can you claim that they are simply "bad apples" that do not represent Trump when He is calling for people at his rallies to violently attack protesters with the promise of paying their legal bills.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

[*]Obama opened the borders allowing unvetted MS-13 gangs to spread like wildfire[*]The media keeps quiet about criminal activities of illegal immigrants

It seems to me everything hinges on these two points.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...sa-since-1990/

According to the national average we had around 458 violent offenses per 100,000 people when Obama first became president and in his last year that was down close to 386. That is a decrease of 16% in 8 years which follows the trend of the last 25 years. So it doesn't seem to make any sense to say that "gangs spread like wildfire" when Obama was president.

Likewise one main reason everyone is talking about gang violence is that the media does cover it. The second reason is that organized crime has been severely crippled due to a variety of forensic tools we didn't have 30 or 40 years ago. Gangs are basically kids, no one is getting to the "wise guy" level, much less the Don level anymore. The reason we talk about the "Cartels" is that you have to go to the third world to find organized crime on that level anymore.

[awareness]

=Ohio]Namcy Pelosi and Maxine Waters have incited their base to violent protest.

I know. They've got 'em worked up into a real granny-get-yer-gun frenzy. Almost like a Trump rally.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Here you called the Trump rally a "mob" but referred to the real antifa mob -- now with hundreds of attacks on citizens in public eateries -- as protests, as if those are normal 1A actions.

Namcy Pelosi and Maxine Waters have incited their base to violent protest. The recent breakfast attack in Philly on Candace Owens and Charlie Kirk shows that the Left is now using orchestrated social media in all the major cities to target and harass conservatives.

Whether you like it or not, this culture war is forcing everyone to choose sides.

I've only seen you condemn violence when it comes from the Left and condone it when it occurs on the Right. So it seems you have taken your own advise and chosen a side.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Namcy Pelosi and Maxine Waters have incited their base to violent protest. The recent breakfast attack in Philly on Candace Owens and Charlie Kirk shows that the Left is now using orchestrated social media in all the major cities to target and harass conservatives.

Whether you like it or not, this culture war is forcing everyone to choose sides.

I haven't chosen a side. I condemn Maxine Waters for her comments that were inflammatory and incendiary. I have condemned Antifa for acting like a mob and not standing on righteousness. I have condemned Trump for inciting his crowds to violence and promising to pay legal fees for people who attack protesters.

I do not agree that you fight fire with fire, nor do I agree that you fight fire with gasoline. Donald Trump uses gasoline, Maxine Waters stupidly tried to "fight fire with fire". Neither is standing on righteousness.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I haven't chosen a side. I condemn Maxine Waters for her comments that were inflammatory and incendiary. I have condemned Antifa for acting like a mob and not standing on righteousness. I have condemned Trump for inciting his crowds to violence and promising to pay legal fees for people who attack protesters.

I do not agree that you fight fire with fire, nor do I agree that you fight fire with gasoline. Donald Trump uses gasoline, Maxine Waters stupidly tried to "fight fire with fire". Neither is standing on righteousness.

Good post. I agree with everything you said except that I don't condemn those people. I just oppose, and don't support or go along with their actions when they incite or participate in or act out violence.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Good post. I agree with everything you said except that I don't condemn those people. I just oppose, and don't support or go along with their actions when they incite or participate in or act out violence.

Fair enough, condemn the action, not the person.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

I've only seen you condemn violence when it comes from the Left and condone it when it occurs on the Right. So it seems you have taken your own advise and chosen a side.

Hard to find violence on the right.

Violence on the campus from antifa shuts down conservatives -- as planned, violating 1A right to free speech -- so that nearly all universities now control the speech their students can hear.

Recent protests in Portland were leftist violence.

Maxine's call for public harassment continues in all major cities. The left has developed social media sites to gather forces whenever a conservative is seen in public.

Trump's cabinet and staff all require security due to continued threats of violence. Sarah Sanders' liberal in-laws were even accosted at a second restaurant even after she went home.

But I'm sure you can find a few conservatives who get out of control. You can then justify thousands of cases of harassment and violence against conservatives with that one loudmouth that got punched at a Trump rally.

Is it too hard for you to see the difference between Trump supporters at a Trump rally shouting at CNN's Acosta, and dozens of progressives throwing water and shouting thru bullhorns at Candace Owens eating in a Philly breakfast joint?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

I've only seen you condemn violence when it comes from the Left and condone it when it occurs on the Right. So it seems you have taken your own advise and chosen a side.

Plus, by taking a anti antifa position, means you're talking a pro-Alt-right position ... and they've got White Supremacists, nationalists, and the KKK and Neo-Nazi's.

I don't support violence on either side, but I also don't support the White Race thing.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I see your error in logic here. Referring to a Trump "mob" does not logically equate to support for Antifa, though the mistake might have been understandable had the quote not also referred to the Antifa as a "mob" as well.

Logically speaking you cannot possibly be offended by the reference to the "Trump mob" and then at the same time logically equate my reference to the Antifa mob as support.

The definition of mob is -- a large crowd of people, especially one that is disorderly and intent on causing trouble or violence.

Yes, it is fair to say that many of Trump's rallies do not fit that description, but you cannot possibly say that they all don't. Especially the ones with maniacs driving their car through the protesters.

Nor can you claim that they are simply "bad apples" that do not represent Trump when He is calling for people at his rallies to violently attack protesters with the promise of paying their legal bills.

It seems that the posters here cannot distinguish between a "Trump rally" and a "Trump mob." It's all playing with words.

Let me suggest that a "mob" will not be confined to a rally auditorium, rather will be on the streets often with masked men, weapons, and violence.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It seems that the posters here cannot distinguish between a "Trump rally" and a "Trump mob." It's all playing with words.

Let me suggest that a "mob" will not be confined to a rally auditorium, rather will be on the streets often with masked men, weapons, and violence.

Takes for the lesson bro Ohio, but I was talking about the frenzy.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

It seems to me everything hinges on these two points.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/...sa-since-1990/

According to the national average we had around 458 violent offenses per 100,000 people when Obama first became president and in his last year that was down close to 386. That is a decrease of 16% in 8 years which follows the trend of the last 25 years. So it doesn't seem to make any sense to say that "gangs spread like wildfire" when Obama was president.

Likewise one main reason everyone is talking about gang violence is that the media does cover it. The second reason is that organized crime has been severely crippled due to a variety of forensic tools we didn't have 30 or 40 years ago. Gangs are basically kids, no one is getting to the "wise guy" level, much less the Don level anymore. The reason we talk about the "Cartels" is that you have to go to the third world to find organized crime on that level anymore.

In this regard both sides highlight the kind of violence which they use to fear monger. The left uses school violence to promote gun control. The right uses terrorism by illegal immigrants to protect the borders.

I have concerns with both extremes. One of the necessary evils of our society is the excessive police presence and invasion of our civil liberties. Without a doubt there are trigger happy and abusive police who seem to get away with murder.

Yet what has happened to Chicago is liberal policies run rampant. I heard a debate last night with two black leaders discussing the violence there. One called for increased 4th amendment protections, the other called for increased police presence. Chicago's mayor seems to believe that the violence is unavoidable -- just so that no one's "rights" are violated.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Takes for the lesson bro Ohio, but I was talking about the frenzy.

Frenzy? Hardly!

Frenzy means "a state or period of uncontrolled excitement or wild behavior." It's not just excitement, but uncontrolled excitement.

I have never seen a Trump rally reach the level of an NFL game. I went to one in 2010 and almost lost my life to some crazy drunks.

You obviously are persuaded by media biased reporting. They used to condemn Tea Party rallies as "frenzied, uncontrolled, dangerous, etc." yet when it was all over, there was even very little litter on the ground.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It seems that the posters here cannot distinguish between a "Trump rally" and a "Trump mob." It's all playing with words.

Let me suggest that a "mob" will not be confined to a rally auditorium, rather will be on the streets often with masked men, weapons, and violence.

Fine, the white supremacist rallies for Trump and the KKK support for Trump would then fall under your definition for a "Trump mob". The post in question that you quoted was in fact based on that context. The pro Trump mob was outside, and involved a car running over protesters, unconfined, on the street, with weapons and violence.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

I haven't chosen a side. I condemn Maxine Waters for her comments that were inflammatory and incendiary. I have condemned Antifa for acting like a mob and not standing on righteousness. I have condemned Trump for inciting his crowds to violence and promising to pay legal fees for people who attack protesters.

I do not agree that you fight fire with fire, nor do I agree that you fight fire with gasoline. Donald Trump uses gasoline, Maxine Waters stupidly tried to "fight fire with fire". Neither is standing on righteousness.

I too condemn Trump's comments in that one rally. But where did Trump "incite his crowds to violence?" Gross exaggerations are falsehoods too, eh?

How about we also compare the amount of violence on both sides.

We had one guy punched at a Trump rally. Isn't this almost expected? If I went to a Democratic rally shouting epithets at the speakers and the attendants, I would expect some to get upset with me. If I got hurt, it would be my own damn fault. Make sense?

We have hundreds of conservatives whose lives are now endangered. They are not at rallies, they are in public spaces. Conservatives need a security entourage to speak on universities.

I don't see how you can compare what is happening with "fairness."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Fine, the white supremacist rallies for Trump and the KKK support for Trump would then fall under your definition for a "Trump mob". The post in question that you quoted was in fact based on that context. The pro Trump mob was outside, and involved a car running over protesters, unconfined, on the street, with weapons and violence.

I hate these neo-KKK types, but that city gave them a permit to protest.

Antifa showed up to fight. Should have just ignored the KKK's. Who were they hurting? If ANTIFA comes to fight, they bear the brunt of the responsibility and should not be endorsed by the Press or you.

Today, the biggest danger we have is not these KKK's, but the ANTIFA's. ANTIFA attacked the Portland Patriot Prayer rally. Once we allow ANTIFA to shutdown speakers on the Berkley campus or a Prayer in Portland rally, what good are our 1st Amendment rights to free speech?

No, my friend, the violence we have today is one-sided. Just look at who is wearing the masks.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I too condemn Trump's comments in that one rally. But where did Trump "incite his crowds to violence?" Gross exaggerations are falsehoods too, eh?

How about we also compare the amount of violence on both sides.

We had one guy punched at a Trump rally. Isn't this almost expected? If I went to a Democratic rally shouting epithets at the speakers and the attendants, I would expect some to get upset with me. If I got hurt, it would be my own damn fault. Make sense?

We have hundreds of conservatives whose lives are now endangered. They are not at rallies, they are in public spaces. Conservatives need a security entourage to speak on universities.

I don't see how you can compare what is happening with "fairness."

You are right, which proves the point.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I hate these neo-KKK types, but that city gave them a permit to protest.

Antifa showed up to fight. Should have just ignored the KKK's. Who were they hurting? If ANTIFA comes to fight, they bear the brunt of the responsibility and should not be endorsed by the Press or you.

Today, the biggest danger we have is not these KKK's, but the ANTIFA's. ANTIFA attacked the Portland Patriot Prayer rally. Once we allow ANTIFA to shutdown speakers on the Berkley campus or a Prayer in Portland rally, what good are our 1st Amendment rights to free speech?

No, my friend, the violence we have today is one-sided. Just look at who is wearing the masks.

Once again, you are right, proving the point.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Hard to find violence on the right.

Terrorists inspired by Nationalist and Right Wing ideology have killed about 10 times as many people as Left Wing terrorists since 1992. https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspi.../#12c463ba1e74

"The far left is very active in the United States, but it hasn't been particularly violent for some time," says Mark Pitcavage, a senior research fellow at the Anti-Defamation League's Center on Extremism.

He says the numbers between the groups don't compare.

"In the past 10 years when you look at murders committed by domestic extremists in the United States of all types, right-wing extremists are responsible for about 74 percent of those murders," Pitcavage says.
https://www.npr.org/2017/06/16/53325...iolence-rising

Violence has been ratcheting up on all sides during white supremacist rallies in recent months — but "antifa" is not planning the rallies, and statistically poses a lesser danger.

https://www.snopes.com/news/2017/08/...ually-violent/

"US government data revealed a long record of homicides inspired by Far Right extremism: 106 people died in 62 attacks from 2001 to the end of 2016. Far Left groups over that same period caused no fatalities." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziZNro3uric

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

Terrorists inspired by Nationalist and Right Wing ideology have killed about 10 times as many people as Left Wing terrorists since 1992. https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspi.../#12c463ba1e74

"The far left is very active in the United States, but it hasn't been particularly violent for some time," says Mark Pitcavage, a senior research fellow at the Anti-Defamation League's Center on Extremism.

He says the numbers between the groups don't compare.

"In the past 10 years when you look at murders committed by domestic extremists in the United States of all types, right-wing extremists are responsible for about 74 percent of those murders," Pitcavage says.
https://www.npr.org/2017/06/16/53325...iolence-rising

Violence has been ratcheting up on all sides during white supremacist rallies in recent months — but "antifa" is not planning the rallies, and statistically poses a lesser danger.

https://www.snopes.com/news/2017/08/...ually-violent/

According to a 2017 survey from Pew Research Center, gun owners are more likely to live in rural areas and vote Republican. This rural tilt helps explain why guns kill so many people in Republican-leaning counties.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...=.0732b144992e

Not to hear Fox News and bro Ohio tell it.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Terrorists inspired by Nationalist and Right Wing ideology have killed about 10 times as many people as Left Wing terrorists since 1992. https://www.forbes.com/sites/realspi.../#12c463ba1e74

"The far left is very active in the United States, but it hasn't been particularly violent for some time," says Mark Pitcavage, a senior research fellow at the Anti-Defamation League's Center on Extremism.

He says the numbers between the groups don't compare.

"In the past 10 years when you look at murders committed by domestic extremists in the United States of all types, right-wing extremists are responsible for about 74 percent of those murders," Pitcavage says.
https://www.npr.org/2017/06/16/53325...iolence-rising

Violence has been ratcheting up on all sides during white supremacist rallies in recent months — but "antifa" is not planning the rallies, and statistically poses a lesser danger.

https://www.snopes.com/news/2017/08/...ually-violent/

"US government data revealed a long record of homicides inspired by Far Right extremism: 106 people died in 62 attacks from 2001 to the end of 2016. Far Left groups over that same period caused no fatalities." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziZNro3uric

That is the problem when you fashion your message to the lowest common denominator.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

That is the problem when you fashion your message to the lowest common denominator.

And everybody knows that Hitler's National Socialistic Party of "Right Wing" Christian conservatives killed millions, thus "proving" how well behaved all socialists, communists, and fascists are.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

And everybody knows that Hitler's National Socialistic Party of "Right Wing" Christian conservatives killed millions, thus "proving" how well behaved all socialists, communists, and fascists are.

Without a doubt Hitler's message was directed at the lowest common denominator. He was especially bitter about the loss in WWI. Just like today, there are losers in the trade agreements made between nations like NAFTA, the losers in those deals are all big supporters of Trump.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Without a doubt Hitler's message was directed at the lowest common denominator. He was especially bitter about the loss in WWI. Just like today, there are losers in the trade agreements made between nations like NAFTA, the losers in those deals are all big supporters of Trump.

I get it -- in your mind Christians are the lowest common denominator, makes them all fascists, racists, etc.

Back to today's violent protesters. Just ask the police who they would rather see protest -- the right or the left.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

And everybody knows that Hitler's National Socialistic Party of "Right Wing" Christian conservatives killed millions, thus "proving" how well behaved all socialists, communists, and fascists are.

That's your partisan spin. I cited information from the Global Terrorism Database, the RAND Corporation, Cato institute and other sources. You ignored it and chose to resort to an ironic straw-man argument rather than look at facts. That's an unprincipled thing to do. If everybody does that, this country is screwed. We should oppose violence as far as possible regardless of which side of the political debate we are on.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I get it -- in your mind Christians are the lowest common denominator, makes them all fascists, racists, etc.

Back to today's violent protesters. Just ask the police who they would rather see protest -- the right or the left.

I often disagree with ZNP, but he's a sincere and thoughtful guy who is well read, weighs facts and works at problem-solving to find solutions. You're simply distorting his position.

[zeek]

WP editor criticizes NPR's interview of Jason Kessler. https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...=.be5812f8dd6f

The interviewer could have done better. But, not every interview of any news organization is going to be superlative. The important point is that they did interview Kessler so that people could get and idea of what he stands for as the leader of Unite the Right before their rally in Washington, D.C today.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I get it -- in your mind Christians are the lowest common denominator, makes them all fascists, racists, etc.

Back to today's violent protesters. Just ask the police who they would rather see protest -- the right or the left.

What is it a part of our faith that NAFTA is an unfair trade agreement? Once again, you continue to make logical errors.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

What is it a part of our faith that NAFTA is an unfair trade agreement? Once again, you continue to make logical errors.

The discussion was about how the media condones violence on the left, yet blames the right. NAFTA was just a distraction.

See any news reports from Wash DC protests over the weekend?

Once again, let me restate my position -- I disagree with all KKK and white supremacy gatherings and messaging, though they do have 1st Amendment rights in the US, so let them protest, and ignore them.

ANTIFA however uses this as a guise for violence. Who out there is condemning their actions? Media? Democrats? ANTIFA attacks black police officers as KKK white supremacists. Does that make sense?

The facts point to a simple conclusion -- ANTIFA is the real danger to America. They are anarchists, pure and simple. The media often promotes their cause. Democrats incite them. Most law enforcement refuse to arrest them. Most courts do not file charges against them.


Then zeek deceptively digs up 25 year old stats using the OKC bombing (anti-govt backlash for Waco and Ruby Ridge) to "prove" that today Portland "Patriot Prayer" and such are more violent.

[zeek]

Violence against police and journalists doing their jobs is wrong. Vox documented it.
"Antifa clashes with police and journalists in Charlottesville and DC
Antifa says it fights fascists and neo-Nazis. But this weekend, members attacked cops and journalists." https://www.vox.com/identities/2018/...nite-the-right

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

"Antifa clashes with police and journalists in Charlottesville and DC
Antifa says it fights fascists and neo-Nazis. But this weekend, members attacked cops and journalists."

Are you now actually beginning to understand that ANTIFA has little to do with supposed anti-racism, and has everything to do with anarchy and the rule of law? The message coming out of Charlottesville last year was merely a ruse to attack Trump.

Look at ANTIFA's chants and messaging:

• Antifa Chants Death to America: ‘No Borders! No Wall! No USA at All!’
• Antifa Counter-Protester Rages Against D.C. Police: ‘You’re All Ameri-KKK, Fascist Pieces of Sh*t!’

[Ohio]

FACT CHECK: Brit Hume Claims That The Number Of Unaccompanied Minors Dwarfs The Number Separated At The Border

“I wonder if the journalists working this story are aware that the overwhelming majority of immigrant minors separated from their families arrived at the border without families,” he tweeted Wednesday.

“There are far more children separated from parents who arrive that way then there are children separated at the border,” he elaborated in a tweet Thursday.

Verdict: True

Yet 50% of Americans believe the initial lies that were spread.

Even supposedly "enlightened, unbiased, Christian" posters here on the forum still believe these lies.

Why? Simple. Hatred for Trump has blinded them.

This story has been repeated a hundred times the last two years.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

FACT CHECK: Brit Hume Claims That The Number Of Unaccompanied Minors Dwarfs The Number Separated At The Border
Yet 50% of Americans believe the initial lies that were spread.

Even supposedly "enlightened, unbiased, Christian" posters here on the forum still believe these lies.

Why? Simple. Hatred for Trump has blinded them.

This story has been repeated a hundred times the last two years.

This appears to me to just be an asinine attempt to attack what you perceive to be liberals out here ... and everywhere.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

FACT CHECK: Brit Hume Claims That The Number Of Unaccompanied Minors Dwarfs The Number Separated At The Border
Yet 50% of Americans believe the initial lies that were spread.

Even supposedly "enlightened, unbiased, Christian" posters here on the forum still believe these lies.

Why? Simple. Hatred for Trump has blinded them.

This story has been repeated a hundred times the last two years.

C'mon, man. You know what the Bible says. "Whatever a man sows he will also reap." Trump sows hate. So, it shouldn't be surprising to you that that's what he reaps.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

C'mon, man. You know what the Bible says. "Whatever a man sows he will also reap." Trump sows hate. So, it shouldn't be surprising to you that that's what he reaps.

C'mon man you know what the Bible says. "The god of this age has blinded their minds."

The Dems, the Obama deep state intelligentia, and the media have mounted a coup since the day Trump won the Republican nomination.

All the facts confirm what I have been saying. To disprove my statement all you need to do is show me one piece of evidence that Trump colluded with the Russians to win the election.

Are you also blaming Trump "hate" for the firing of Strzok, who exonerated Clinton and launched the investigation into Trump?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

This appears to me to just be an asinine attempt to attack what you perceive to be liberals out here ... and everywhere.

Why is it when evidence reaches you to change your point of view about Trump you see it as an "attack" on all liberals?

This to me is a little scary. What frightens the liberals the most is the truth. When it comes to the unending media smear campaign against Trump, you gleefully gulp in down. When ... Over time ... The actual facts become known, then you become fearful.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

C'mon man you know what the Bible says. "The god of this age has blinded their minds."

Oh that's right! You have your special local church insights.

The Dems, the Obama deep state intelligentia, and the media have mounted a coup since the day Trump won the Republican nomination.

All the facts confirm what I have been saying. To disprove my statement all you need to do is show me one piece of evidence that Trump colluded with the Russians to win the election.

"Let patience have her perfect work" James 1:4. Kenneth Starr's investigation took how long? To date, special counsel Robert Mueller’s investigation into Russian "meddling" has led to the indictment of 25 Russians and three Russian companies. Five people have pleaded guilty, including former Trump campaign official Mike Flynn, who was fired as national security adviser after he admitted lying about his contacts with Russians on the campaign trail.

When Trump publicly said "Russia, if you’re listening, I hope you’re able to find the 30,000 emails that are missing,” it was the first time I know of that a major presidential candidate had actively encouraged a foreign power to conduct espionage against his political opponent.

If you cared about the integrity of our democracy you would have been outraged at that. But, you weren't cuz you hate the Clintons. Hell, you hate all liberals and all things liberal as you have often expressed on ths thread. You're basically a theocrat, and fascist dictator types like Trump and Putin cater to you guys. So it's no surprise if you support the dismantling of the US's alliance with liberal democracies world-wide and a new alignment with Russia and other authoritarian states.

Are you also blaming Trump "hate" for the firing of Strzok, who exonerated Clinton and launched the investigation into Trump?

No. Strzok compromised the integrity of his job, the reputation of the FBI and the investigations he was participating in. Which is sad for him because apparently he had been a talented and dedicated agent. Commentators are saying that the firing goes beyond customary FBI policy, but this investigation is of the highest of profiles so there is justification for concluding the "usual and customary" rules don't apply. People were fired for much less when I was doing routine government work without top security clearance.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

If you cared about the integrity of our democracy you would have been outraged at that. But, you weren't cuz you hate the Clintons. Hell, you hate all liberals and all things liberal as you have often expressed on ths thread. You're basically a theocrat, and fascist dictator types like Trump and Putin cater to you guys. So it's no surprise if you support the dismantling of the US's alliance with liberal democracies world-wide and a new alignment with Russia and other authoritarian states.

Interesting how you can denounce 60 million voters who elected Trump as fascist dictator types, claiming it is we Christians who are theocratic haters.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Interesting how you can denounce 60 million voters who elected Trump as fascist dictator types, claiming it is we Christians who are theocratic haters.

No. You misread the post. Try again. The fascist-dictator types are manipulating public opinion. The "theocrat" descriptor I applied to you alone. Unlike yourself I try to avoid sweeping generalization. Not all conservatives are the same just like not all liberals are the same. In fact, none of them are the same. If you dig down deep, political identities fall away. No two people are the same.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

No. You misread the post. Try again. The fascist-dictator types are manipulating public opinion. The "theocrat" descriptor I applied to you alone. Unlike yourself I try to avoid sweeping generalization. Not all conservatives are the same just like not all liberals are the same. In fact, none of them are the same. If you dig down deep, political identities fall away. No two people are the same.

Read what a theocrat is. Nothing I have written demands that. Today Sharia Law is the closest thing we have to theocracy. I support Trump for secular policy, without any religious demand on him. You are defined by "sweeping generalization" whether you admit it or not.

Look at who is today defining and manipulating public opinion -- it is the media, Hollywood, the deep state, and the Democrats.

Of course, no two people are identical, we have DNA do we not? But the LEFT you are apart of is characterized by a hatred of Trump, and look at what happens when someone like Kanye decides to differ. Look at how Omarosa is now their heroine. The media defines people -- loving or hating them -- by their connection with Trump.

You are doing the same with me. You are unable to objectively discuss the facts of issues, rather you espouse the media line wholeheartedly. Case in point was Charlottesville. You joined the media craze in deciding that Trump and all his supporters are affirmed racists, nazis, bigots, supremacists, KKK, etc. You have no evidence of this -- but neither do you need it -- because you just swallow the media message without discernment. Apparently you lost all your discernment when you left the faith -- yet you condemn all others like me for what you do. Romans 2.1

Look at how many Dems and Repubs have flipped their position just in the last decade in order to support Obama Progressivism and oppose Trump. At one time many supported secure borders, wanted a wall, opposed gay marriage, opposed abortion, supported marriage, embassy in Jerusalem, strong military, support for police, support for ICE, etc ... the list goes on and on.

You many say that there is diversity on both sides, but on major issues the Left are like lemmings headed towards the cliff. To be a conservative today often one must be willing to be an outcast from their own society.

[Ohio]

Here's a peek into the mind of a liberal -- only 3 minutes long

https://youtu.be/ybJCUvJwSkA

"If it sounds like a diabolical puppet show, that's because it is!"

I dare any of my liberal friends to rebut this.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

To be a conservative today often one must be willing to be an outcast from their own society.

Goodness brother. I don't want any part of making you feel like an outcast. I'm sorry for every time I've made you feel that way.

I'll try to do better. That's why in general to be congenial out in public it's best to stay away from discussing politics (and religion).

These days are days of extreme division. Passions are high. To me it looks like a pressure cooker, that's about to blow.

But didn't Jesus live in very divided times. In Matthew the crowds from all over are following Jesus. So he goes up on a mountain and speaks to "the crowds." This is after he healed all that were brought to him.

So the diverse and divided crowds were hanging on his every word. What did he teach, among many other wonderful things Matthew records him as teaching :

But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you,
so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same?

Jesus wasn't for anyone being outcasts. Don't let politics make you feel that way brother.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Read what a theocrat is. Nothing I have written demands that. Today Sharia Law is the closest thing we have to theocracy. I support Trump for secular policy, without any religious demand on him. You are defined by "sweeping generalization" whether you admit it or not.

Look at who is today defining and manipulating public opinion -- it is the media, Hollywood, the deep state, and the Democrats.

Of course, no two people are identical, we have DNA do we not? But the LEFT you are apart of is characterized by a hatred of Trump, and look at what happens when someone like Kanye decides to differ. Look at how Omarosa is now their heroine. The media defines people -- loving or hating them -- by their connection with Trump.

You are doing the same with me. You are unable to objectively discuss the facts of issues, rather you espouse the media line wholeheartedly. Case in point was Charlottesville. You joined the media craze in deciding that Trump and all his supporters are affirmed racists, nazis, bigots, supremacists, KKK, etc. You have no evidence of this -- but neither do you need it -- because you just swallow the media message without discernment. Apparently you lost all your discernment when you left the faith -- yet you condemn all others like me for what you do. Romans 2.1

Look at how many Dems and Repubs have flipped their position just in the last decade in order to support Obama Progressivism and oppose Trump. At one time many supported secure borders, wanted a wall, opposed gay marriage, opposed abortion, supported marriage, embassy in Jerusalem, strong military, support for police, support for ICE, etc ... the list goes on and on.

You many say that there is diversity on both sides, but on major issues the Left are like lemmings headed towards the cliff. To be a conservative today often one must be willing to be an outcast from their own society.

Well I'm happy to learn that you're not a Theocrat. Cuz I was under the impression that you voted for Donald Trump mainly because in order to get elected he said he would nominate judges and support legislation favored by your brand of Christianity including discriminating against lgbtq people, ending women's right to choose to have abortions, and widespread repression of non-believers. That sounds like a Theocratic legislative and judicial agenda to me. If you weren't a blind partisan you would see that both sides of the political spectrum are manipulating public opinion. It's ironic to me that you accuse me of being unable to objectively discuss facts because when I post facts you don't respond. You just skip over those posts. Like when I showed that the right-wing extremists have committed far more violence than antifa. You just ignored the post. Oh by the way that lemmings story that you used as a metaphor is fake news.

Lemmings have become the subject of a widely popular misconception that they commit mass suicide when they migrate by jumping off cliffs. This urban myth became widespread after this behavior was shown in the Walt Disney documentary White Wilderness (film) in 1958. However, the animals in the film are not wild animals jumping off the cliff voluntarily, rather they were bought by the producers and pushed over the edge of the cliff. Instead of suicidal behavior, what explains the drastic fluctuations in population size are environmental factors such as whether the right kind of snow is available. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemming#Misconceptions

If it were true you would be a lemming living in a glass house throwing a stone.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Here's a peek into the mind of a liberal -- only 3 minutes long

https://youtu.be/ybJCUvJwSkA

"If it sounds like a diabolical puppet show, that's because it is!"

I dare any of my liberal friends to rebut this.

This is a propagandistic attempt to tar a large segment of the American population with the vandalism of one or possibly two individuals. It's the same kind of over-generalization that you condemn when the mainstream media does it. And yeah Hollywood celebrities shouldn't encourage vandalism as neither should anybody else.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by zeek

This is a propagandistic attempt to tar a large segment of the American population with the vandalism of one or possibly two individuals. It's the same kind of over-generalization that you condemn when the mainstream media does it. And yeah Hollywood celebrities shouldn't encourage vandalism as neither should anybody else.

One or two individuals?

How about all those who supported this action? You conveniently forget about them. Of course.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Here's a peek into the mind of a liberal -- only 3 minutes long

https://youtu.be/ybJCUvJwSkA

"If it sounds like a diabolical puppet show, that's because it is!"

I dare any of my liberal friends to rebut this.

Thanks for a peek into the mind of a liberal. I know that it was just a peek, and there's lots of other scary stuff in there, but the peek allowed us to see that they are creeps. Oooooo, those scary creeps! And you can spot 'em. Every creepy person is a liberal. You can count on it. Even creepy conservatives, so called.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Ohio

One or two individuals?

How about all those who supported this action? You conveniently forget about them. Of course.

How many were there and how exactly did they support the perpetrators?

[ZNPaaneah]

Ever since Trump's campaign we have asked and wondered what era in US history "make America great again" was referring to. Now we know, McCarthy's era.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Read what a theocrat is. Nothing I have written demands that. Today Sharia Law is the closest thing we have to theocracy. I support Trump for secular policy, without any religious demand on him. You are defined by "sweeping generalization" whether you admit it or not.

Although this thread is "Politics and the Church" it seems to me that "Politics and Religion" should be addressed here as well.

Personally I feel the whole idea that the US govt can be separated from religion is bogus. Whether or not you agree with Sharia Law the one thing I think everyone should be able to see is that admitting your religion is part of how your society and govt are run is honest.

I consider those abortionists who claim "freedom of religion" are simply dishonest. A promiscuous lifestyle is a religion. In the OT the priests of Baal and the priests of Molech were the ones that did the abortions. I interpret Baal to indicate the worship of your career and Molech to be the worship of fornication. Therefore legalizing abortion is the establishment of these religions and is prohibited by the constitution. The federal government has violated their jurisdiction when the Supreme court made this ruling.

Everyone lives their life in a way that values certain things and that can be seen as the things they worship and sacrifice for. If you claim my worship of God violates the freedoms given to you by the constitution the remedy is not to allow your worship of your career or fornication to violate my freedoms.

So then, "freedom of religion" indicates that our constitution provides an opportunity for everyone to be a citizen regardless of their religion, to practice that religion, speak about that, worship, meet, etc. Likewise they can vote. It doesn't mean that our govt is anti religion, or atheistic, nor does it mean that those who are elected have to deny or hide their religion.

The Federal govt has no right to establish a religion, and that is what legalizing abortion does. Instead this matter should be decided by each and every state.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Although this thread is "Politics and the Church" it seems to me that "Politics and Religion" should be addressed here as well.

Personally I feel the whole idea that the US govt can be separated from religion is bogus. Whether or not you agree with Sharia Law the one thing I think everyone should be able to see is that admitting your religion is part of how your society and govt are run is honest.

I consider those abortionists who claim "freedom of religion" are simply dishonest. A promiscuous lifestyle is a religion. In the OT the priests of Baal and the priests of Molech were the ones that did the abortions. I interpret Baal to indicate the worship of your career and Molech to be the worship of fornication. Therefore legalizing abortion is the establishment of these religions and is prohibited by the constitution. The federal government has violated their jurisdiction when the Supreme court made this ruling.

Everyone lives their life in a way that values certain things and that can be seen as the things they worship and sacrifice for. If you claim my worship of God violates the freedoms given to you by the constitution the remedy is not to allow your worship of your career or fornication to violate my freedoms.

So then, "freedom of religion" indicates that our constitution provides an opportunity for everyone to be a citizen regardless of their religion, to practice that religion, speak about that, worship, meet, etc. Likewise they can vote. It doesn't mean that our govt is anti religion, or atheistic, nor does it mean that those who are elected have to deny or hide their religion.

The Federal govt has no right to establish a religion, and that is what legalizing abortion does. Instead this matter should be decided by each and every state.

This is basically the argument of Francis Schaeffer that secular humanism is religion. As you have framed it, it's an argument against the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment and as such an argument against religious freedom. Perhaps it's impossible to be a Christian partisan and a small d democrat at the same time. If this is the way Christians think their only limits will be scriptural supports for subjection to authority or and the rule of law. Pluralism will always be an affront to the absolute truth they believe that only they possess.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Although this thread is "Politics and the Church" it seems to me that "Politics and Religion" should be addressed here as well.

Personally I feel the whole idea that the US govt can be separated from religion is bogus. Whether or not you agree with Sharia Law the one thing I think everyone should be able to see is that admitting your religion is part of how your society and govt are run is honest.

I consider those abortionists who claim "freedom of religion" are simply dishonest. A promiscuous lifestyle is a religion. In the OT the priests of Baal and the priests of Molech were the ones that did the abortions. I interpret Baal to indicate the worship of your career and Molech to be the worship of fornication. Therefore legalizing abortion is the establishment of these religions and is prohibited by the constitution. The federal government has violated their jurisdiction when the Supreme court made this ruling.

Everyone lives their life in a way that values certain things and that can be seen as the things they worship and sacrifice for. If you claim my worship of God violates the freedoms given to you by the constitution the remedy is not to allow your worship of your career or fornication to violate my freedoms.

So then, "freedom of religion" indicates that our constitution provides an opportunity for everyone to be a citizen regardless of their religion, to practice that religion, speak about that, worship, meet, etc. Likewise they can vote. It doesn't mean that our govt is anti religion, or atheistic, nor does it mean that those who are elected have to deny or hide their religion.

The Federal govt has no right to establish a religion, and that is what legalizing abortion does. Instead this matter should be decided by each and every state.

How about the matter should be decided by each and every woman?

The rest of your post, where you take it on yourself to define religions for other people, willy-nilly is : whack-a-noodle.

Did you mean it to be that way? Are you playing with us?

[zeek]

Thanks to everyone who made the cancellation of Trump's parade possible!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

Thanks to everyone who made the cancellation of Trump's parade possible!

You can thank Trump. Cuz he cancelled it, he says in a tweet this morning (prolly on the toilet):

"The local politicians who run Washington, D.C. (poorly) know a windfall when they see it. When asked to give us a price for holding a great celebratory military parade, they wanted a number so ridiculously high that I cancelled it. Never let someone hold you up! I will instead..." - 4:57am August 17, 2018

....attend the big parade already scheduled at Andrews Air Force Base on a different date, & go to the Paris parade, celebrating the end of the War, on November 11th. Maybe we will do something next year in D.C. when the cost comes WAY DOWN. Now we can buy some more jet fighters!
7:10 AM - Aug 17, 2018 (maybe on the toilet again)

Toilet tweets? Whatever will we do with them? It is kinda fun keeping up with our clown president. Who will he attack today? Oh wait, he attacked "politicians who run Washington, D.C. (poorly)" ; he attacked everyone in Washington. But the day just got started. Who else will he attack today? It's hard to keep up with.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

This is basically the argument of Francis Schaeffer that secular humanism is religion. As you have framed it, it's an argument against the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment and as such an argument against religious freedom. Perhaps it's impossible to be a Christian partisan and a small d democrat at the same time. If this is the way Christians think their only limits will be scriptural supports for subjection to authority or and the rule of law. Pluralism will always be an affront to the absolute truth they believe that only they possess.

What is impossible is to pretend that your beliefs and values don't shape your politics.

Likewise, it is ridiculous to say that an atheist doesn't worship something or is somehow immune from religion or that "freedom of religion" implies that the constitution supports atheism.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

How about the matter should be decided by each and every woman?

Actually we are a democracy, so the matter should be decided by every man and woman. Second, if you read my post which your response indicates you didn't, I said this should be decided by the State, not the Supreme court. If all the residents in the State vote to legalize abortion in that State then that would be constitutional. It is difficult to believe based on various polling data that at least 40% of states wouldn't legalize this. So then if a woman lived in a state where this was illegal, say Mississippi, she would simply drive an hour into Georgia where it might be legal. Doesn't seem like such an inconvenience to uphold our constitution.

The woman has the right to decide whether or not to have sex. She has the right to decide whether or not to use contraception. She has the right to decide whether or not to live in a state where it is illegal or legal and she has the right to travel to a state where it is legal. So how is any of this violating a woman's right to choose?

Originally Posted by awareness

The rest of your post, where you take it on yourself to define religions for other people, willy-nilly is : whack-a-noodle.

Did you mean it to be that way? Are you playing with us?

I define religion as a lifestyle. Everyone has a lifestyle, everyone sacrifices for something, worships something.

What is whack a doodle is this pretense that since my beliefs and faith and values shape my politics that somehow they are unconstitutional or that this somehow indicates a support for theocracy.

Every single person has a god, even the atheists. It may be their stomach, it may be Jehovah, or Jesus or Mohammed, or it may be their career, or money, or pleasure, or fornication, etc.

Consider the bank robber, murderer who thinks he doesn't care about God and is atheistic/agnostic. Why are you robbing and murdering? Obviously he values the money in a bank above human life and social norms. That is his god.

[awareness]

Okay bro ZNP I get it. Everybody is religious.

That's a far cry from the definition you've used in the past, that you were so fond of :

Jas_1:27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

[awareness]

Today Trump is attacking Social Media. Eventually he's gonna run out of enemies.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by awareness

Okay bro ZNP I get it. Everybody is religious.

That's a far cry from the definition you've used in the past, that you were so fond of :

Jas_1:27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

Not different.

Pure and undefiled religion does not refer to the religion of atheists and hedonists.

This definition is based on the Lord's 2 major commandments. Any religion will talk about their love for God, but religion is what man sees, which is their love for their fellow man.

blowing yourself up based on some religious dogma is "defiled" and it isn't pure, you are being manipulated by those with a political agenda.

The best test for your love for God, the father of all, is that you do unto others as you would have them do to you. Particularly widows and orphans.

But murdering and robbing banks also reveals what you love. It is your religion, but is defiled and impure. The love of money is a root of all sorts of evil.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The love of money is a root of all sorts of evil.

But it says right there on our money : In God we Trust.

[awareness]

The Trump swamp is getting drained, of Trump swamp creatures :

Cohen, Trump’s Ex-Lawyer, Investigated for Bank Fraud in Excess of $20 Million


https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/19/n...s&ref=headline

[zeek]

Giuliani : "truth isn't truth". That can't be true. Because if it is it isn't. That's absurd, contradictory, and illogical. Trump's defense is the stuff of post-truth double-talk.

[ZNPaaneah]

I agree with Ohio that there is a lot of fake news on these cable news networks. For example, I heard many people on CNN and MSNBC say that Trump was "petty" for revoking the security clearance of one of his critics. How do they know its petty? How do they know that Trump isn't planning on authorizing some very disturbing clandestine operations and doesn't need someone who is critical of him reading about it?

If Obama did this no one would be saying it was "petty". Imagine if Clinton did this during the Whitewater investigation or Nixon did this after Watergate.

This is certainly every bit as chilling as what McCarthy did. What an insult to characterize what McCarthy did as "petty". And words matter. If the President is indeed "petty" then suing him over this would also be deemed petty. This is not simply a constitutional matter and a first amendment matter, it could very well be a national security issue.

[zeek]

Breaking News: Russian hackers appear to have a new target: conservative U.S. think tanks that have broken with President Trump, a report by Microsoft found. In a report scheduled for release on Tuesday, Microsoft Corporation said that it detected and seized websites that were created in recent weeks by hackers linked to the Russian unit formerly known as the G.R.U.

The sites appeared meant to trick people into thinking they were clicking through links managed by the Hudson Institute and the International Republican Institute, but were secretly redirected to web pages created by the hackers to steal passwords and other credentials.
NYTimes.com News Alert 12:04 AM

[awareness]

Good for them. Celebrating Abraham's willingness to sacrifice Isaac.

Muslims Hold Massive Rally at Vikings USBank Stadium — Chanting “Allahu Akbar”
https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/201...u-akbar-video/


It's good to live in the land of the freedom of religion.

[zeek]

Manafort guilty; Cohen guilty. And Cohen implicates Trump. Trump may have to testify under oath after all. What do you think?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Manafort guilty; Cohen guilty. And Cohen implicates Trump. Trump may have to testify under oath after all. What do you think?

I agree with Trump "its a disgrace". I'm glad he is ashamed of his actions and associations with felons.

I also agree with Giuliani that the charges do not name Trump, that needs to be rectified now that we have Cohen's confession. Kudos for Giuliani pointing this out.

I think the best thing for the country is for Trump to resign so that he can focus his full attention on his legal woes. Especially since he has already confirmed that he was the one that directed Michael Cohen to make that payment and his lawyer Giuliani has also confirmed that he was the one that reimbursed Cohen. It is nice that in this case Cohen, Trump and Giuliani all agree about Trump's involvement in these felonies. The good news is that Pence is not implicated in any of this.

[awareness]

It's not a witch hunt. It's witches hunting :

Alabama pastor asks church to pray for Trump, against witchcraft attacking him
https://www.al.com/living/index.ssf/...ource=rawstory

[zeek]

Why Trump Supporters Believe He Is Not Corrupt
What the president’s supporters fear most isn’t the corruption of American law, but the corruption of America’s traditional identity.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...uption/568147/

[awareness]

Originally Posted by zeek

Why Trump Supporters Believe He Is Not Corrupt
What the president’s supporters fear most isn’t the corruption of American law, but the corruption of America’s traditional identity.

Trump, even if he's more crooked than crooked Hillary, represents American traditional identity. After president Blackenstein, he's the last great white hope. That's more important than corrupt law.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Why Trump Supporters Believe He Is Not Corrupt
What the president’s supporters fear most isn’t the corruption of American law, but the corruption of America’s traditional identity.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics...uption/568147/

What an amazing story of connecting the dots. Fox news runs a story about the breaking news in the Mollie Tibbits case and the Atlantic is able to see the true inference behind this story, that what Americans are really afraid of is the corruption of America's traditional identity. I get it. Wow! So that is why Fox ran with this story.

One question, why did CNN cover this story? Also, why did ABC news? One other question, why did PBS and the BBC?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

What an amazing story of connecting the dots. Fox news runs a story about the breaking news in the Mollie Tibbits case and the Atlantic is able to see the true inference behind this story, that what Americans are really afraid of is the corruption of America's traditional identity. I get it. Wow! So that is why Fox ran with this story.

One question, why did CNN cover this story? Also, why did ABC news? One other question, why did PBS and the BBC?

Did any of those networks run the Tibbits case as their lead story as the writer says Fox News did? The author is taking a stab at understanding why people who used to call themselves "The Moral Majority" and who once claimed to have "Family Values" have forsaken their supposed moral high ground to support a philandering, traitorous flim-flam man who with his attorney Michael Cohen is now apparently an unindicted co-conspirator to defraud the American people in the 2016 election. Got a better hypothesis?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by zeek

Did any of those networks run the Tibbits case as their lead story as the writer says Fox News did? The author is taking a stab at understanding why people who used to call themselves "The Moral Majority" and who once claimed to have "Family Values" have forsaken their supposed moral high ground to support a philandering, traitorous flim-flam man who with his attorney Michael Cohen is now apparently an unindicted co-conspirator to defraud the American people in the 2016 election. Got a better hypothesis?

So then why not actually listen to what these supporters have said, like Ohio.

1. They are not supporting his philandering, instead they are willing to say that not voting or giving your vote to Clinton because this candidate is a philanderer is foolish.

2. Many of those who have pushed family values have made it clear that they are not ignorant of who he is, nor do they approve, but the reality is there are two choices and the one they made was based on policies, not other requirements.

3. The term "traitorous" is unfair on two levels. First, there was no indication of any of the inferred collusion when they voted. So your reference to "support" should not be understood as "voted for". Second, as real, undeniable evidence of crimes (not traitorous, but impeachable crimes) has come out many of the strong supporters have pulled that support. Therefore the support you are talking about is simply supporting a guy who is being attacked.

4. Flim flam man. That is my impression, but lets be realistic, the economy is as good as anyone could have hoped. Also, he has followed through on his promises unlike virtually all other politicians including Obama. Finally, those who voted for him were the victims of the previous administrations of film flam men who have shipped their jobs overseas.

Yes, I have a much better hypothesis. During the Nov election the Democrats will win and then the impeachment process will begin. Why will they win in Nov because they finally can see the outcome of Mueller's investigation and have undeniable evidence of something they will not tolerate. This is not based simply on Cohen's confession, but rather the CFO of Trump's organization has been given immunity. Why would he ask for or need immunity if he didn't have evidence of crimes that he helped Trump commit.

This guys theory in the Atlantic is as hateful, insulting and divisive as anything I have ever seen. Perhaps there are 10% of Trump supporters who are "hard core" and this does apply to, but since that represents 5% of the voters and that in turn represents about 2.5% of the eligible voters in the US I find it completely unhelpful.