The lesser known ministry of Watchman Nee

[Freedom]

This thread is intended to address parts of Nee’s ministry that aren’t commonly covered or discussed in the LC. I wanted to initially discuss one of Nee’s book titled “The Latent Power of the Soul” It is available to read online here:

http://www.worldinvisible.com/librar...f00.0634.c.htm

It can also be found in the Collected Works of Watchman Nee Vol. 10: The Present Testimony Ch 9-11.

While reading Philip Lin’s book “Sacrifice and Sail On”, Lin made reference to Nee’s “Latent Power” book, and the obviously peculiar sounding title caught my attention. Out of curiosity, I went ahead and read the book. I was a bit taken aback by this book (even a little freaked out), not so much because of the content, but because I realized that Nee really believed some bizarre things. Over the years in the LC, I have heard references to Nee’s “not recommended” works or people will say stuff like “you have to be careful about reading some of Nee’s books”. I guess this is one of those books. People outside of the LC have essentially said that this book isn't for the faint of heart. Nee himself said that he purposely didn't include the contents of this book in "The Spiritual Man". Nonetheless, I think that it is important to consider who Nee was by taking into consideration all parts of his ministry, not just what the LC focuses on.

To summarize “The Latent Power of the Soul”, Nee attempts to prove that Adam originally possessed superhuman abilities that were “immobilized” after the fall. He then goes on to warn that people can still possibly release this “latent” power today. He talks a lot about parapsychology and science from his day (now considered to be pseudoscience). In the latter part of the book, he attempts to apply his teaching to warn Christians against having highly “emotional” experiences of the Lord.

I don’t find any value in reading this book other than it being insightful into the “other” side of Nee. I will go more into detail of some of the contents of this book if there is sufficient interest in discussing this subject.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Freedom

This thread is intended to address parts of Nee’s ministry that aren’t commonly covered or discussed in the LC. I wanted to initially discuss one of Nee’s book titled “The Latent Power of the Soul” It is available to read online here:

http://www.worldinvisible.com/librar...f00.0634.c.htm

It can also be found in the Collected Works of Watchman Nee Vol. 10: The Present Testimony Ch 9-11.

While reading Philip Lin’s book “Sacrifice and Sail On”, Lin made reference to Nee’s “Latent Power” book, and the obviously peculiar sounding title caught my attention. Out of curiosity, I went ahead and read the book. I was a bit taken aback by this book (even a little freaked out), not so much because of the content, but because I realized that Nee really believed some bizarre things. Over the years in the LC, I have heard references to Nee’s “not recommended” works or people will say stuff like “you have to be careful about reading some of Nee’s books”. I guess this is one of those books. People outside of the LC have essentially said that this book isn't for the faint of heart. Nee himself said that he purposely didn't include the contents of this book in "The Spiritual Man". Nonetheless, I think that it is important to consider who Nee was by taking into consideration all parts of his ministry, not just what the LC focuses on.

To summarize “The Latent Power of the Soul”, Nee attempts to prove that Adam originally possessed superhuman abilities that were “immobilized” after the fall. He then goes on to warn that people can still possibly release this “latent” power today. He talks a lot about parapsychology and science from his day (now considered to be pseudoscience). In the latter part of the book, he attempts to apply his teaching to warn Christians against having highly “emotional” experiences of the Lord.

I don’t find any value in reading this book other than it being insightful into the “other” side of Nee. I will go more into detail of some of the contents of this book if there is sufficient interest in discussing this subject.

I remember reading some parts of this book years ago as well as the The Spiritual Man. Nee was heavily influenced by Jessie Penn-Lewis as I read her books as well. If you try to follow this stuff you will go nuts-literally. It's not for the faint of heart. Nee tries to show that it is all Biblical but the Bible, for example in the NT - Paul's writings, are heavy sledding in many parts so it is not just Nee. It's the Bible in many parts of the OT and especially in John and many of Paul's writings. Heavy sledding and people think they have it figured out but they are still working on it. Love God, love your brother...the rest will work itself out.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Dave

I remember reading some parts of this book years ago as well as the The Spiritual Man. Nee was heavily influenced by Jessie Penn-Lewis as I read her books as well. If you try to follow this stuff you will go nuts-literally. It's not for the faint of heart. Nee tries to show that it is all Biblical but the Bible, for example in the NT - Paul's writings, are heavy sledding in many parts so it is not just Nee. It's the Bible in many parts of the OT and especially in John and many of Paul's writings. Heavy sledding and people think they have it figured out but they are still working on it. Love God, love your brother...the rest will work itself out.

I remember in one of the trainings I went to a number of years ago, the brother speaking (probably Ron) was warning us against reading Jessie Penn-Lewis' writings. I think it was either the "Spiritual Warfare" or "War on the Saints" book that was mentioned in particular. I thought it was ironic because I was already aware that both Nee and Lee were influenced by her.

At any rate, it has always bothered me that no one in the LC ever gives things like this a little bit of thought. If Nee was influenced by Jessie Penn-Lewis' writings, yet we are being warned against reading her writings, what does that imply?

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Freedom

To summarize “The Latent Power of the Soul”, Nee attempts to prove that Adam originally possessed superhuman abilities that were “immobilized” after the fall. He then goes on to warn that people can still possibly release this “latent” power today.

Personally speaking, I sure look forward to walking through walls like Jesus did, to disappear and appear like Jesus did, to fly through the air with the greatest of ease. Awww.... to have the MIND OF CHRIST manifested in me, in us !! COME LORD JESUS! When He comes for His Bride, we are going to defy gravity ! We are going to meet JESUS IN THE AIR ! HALLELUIAH TO THE LAMB OF GOD !

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Dave

I remember reading some parts of this book years ago as well as the The Spiritual Man. Nee was heavily influenced by Jessie Penn-Lewis as I read her books as well. If you try to follow this stuff you will go nuts-literally. It's not for the faint of heart. Nee tries to show that it is all Biblical but the Bible, for example in the NT - Paul's writings, are heavy sledding in many parts so it is not just Nee. It's the Bible in many parts of the OT and especially in John and many of Paul's writings. Heavy sledding and people think they have it figured out but they are still working on it. Love God, love your brother...the rest will work itself out.

Dave, care to clarify "heavy sledding" for us? Is it related to skiing?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I remember in one of the trainings I went to a number of years ago, the brother speaking (probably Ron) was warning us against reading Jessie Penn-Lewis' writings. I think it was either the "Spiritual Warfare" or "War on the Saints" book that was mentioned in particular. I thought it was ironic because I was already aware that both Nee and Lee were influenced by her.

At any rate, it has always bothered me that no one in the LC ever gives things like this a little bit of thought. If Nee was influenced by Jessie Penn-Lewis' writings, yet we are being warned against reading her writings, what does that imply?

Have you read that JP-L was instrumental to debilitate Evan Roberts and his evangelical work during the Welch Revival?

[Dave]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Dave, care to clarify "heavy sledding" for us? Is it related to skiing?

No skiing is different. Much easier. Heavy sledding means: difficult, rigorous. Here are some synonyms for heavy sledding to make it clearer and some apply to my statement more than others: arduous, rough, strenuous, demanding, exacting, formidable, hairy, hard, harsh, heavy, knotty, laborious, large order, mean, trying, no picnic, taxing, uncompromising, uphill ...

[Friedel]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Have you read that JP-L was instrumental to debilitate Evan Roberts and his evangelical work during the Welch Revival?

This is not true. On the contrary.

Evan Roberts was emotionally unbalanced and was physically very weak. This took a heavy toll on his body and mental state and he had numerous nervous breakdowns. Jessie Penn-Lewis and her husband took him in and he stayed with them for several years. I would rather suggest that she and her husband helped him to recover and they allowed him to stay with them until he felt he was ready to resume his preaching. This simply did not materialize any time soon.

Around 1914 he surprised many by declaring that the Lord would return that year. This alienated him from many, even those close to him. His biggest problem is that he found very little acceptance among the clergy in Wales. He only started with his training to become an ordained pastor but he never completed his studies. This was the reason many looked down on him as "unqualified and untrained".

When you read the reports of the Welsh revival of 1904–1905 (often referred to as "awakenings") you cannot but help to conclude that it was much more about the person and style of Evan Roberts. When he stopped preaching after suffering a serious breakdown, the "revival" died a quick death.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Dave

I remember reading some parts of this book years ago as well as the The Spiritual Man. Nee was heavily influenced by Jessie Penn-Lewis as I read her books as well. If you try to follow this stuff you will go nuts-literally.

It's been a long time, but I remember that the concern about Penn-Lewis and The Spiritual Man was demon possession.

I wasn't told back then, but have since learned, that JP-L thought that at least some of the Welsh revival had become demon possessed. Jessie taught that Christians could become demon possessed. Thus "War on the Saints." And thus, she stifled Evan Roberts and the revival. She's called the Jezebel of the Welsh revival ... or mockingly, Jezzie. Just goggle "Jezebel of the Welsh revival."

[Friedel]

Originally Posted by awareness

It's been a long time, but I remember that the concern about Penn-Lewis and The Spiritual Man was demon possession.

I wasn't told back then, but have since learned, that JP-L thought that at least some of the Welsh revival had become demon possessed. Jessie taught that Christians could become demon possessed. Thus "War on the Saints." And thus, she stifled Evan Roberts and the revival. She's called the Jezebel of the Welsh revival ... or mockingly, Jezzie. Just goggle "Jezebel of the Welsh revival."

I am not a champion for Jessie Penn-Lewis but Evan Roberts co-authored "War on the Saints". It was exactly the matter of whether Christians can become demon-possessed that had many people disagreeing with especially Penn-Lewis. Witness Lee spoke of that on more than one occasion.

Evan Roberts was very independent and spiritually immature. Initially, the main thing that drew people to his meetings, was his habit of "calling out" people. For example, "In the third row on the balcony is a man who hates his neighbor", or something like that. In the early stages of the revival a "guilty one" would stand up and confess, leading to "oohs" and "aahs" and "amens". Some "guilty ones" were regularly openly shamed by Roberts. Later, it often happened that there was no response to his "calling out". This caused him to despair and to become more and more erratic in his conduct. His behavior increasingly certainly did not endear him to many of his followers.

Evan Roberts' style was similar to that of the Benny Hinns of today.

Jessie Penn-Lewis wrote a well-documented book on the Welsh Revival. She was very positive and credible about the awakening of 1904–1905.

I my opinion the main destroyer of the Welsh Revival was Evan Roberts himself, not "Jezzie".

[aron]

Originally Posted by Friedel

I am not a champion for Jessie Penn-Lewis but Evan Roberts co-authored "War on the Saints". It was exactly the matter of whether Christians can become demon-possessed that had many people disagreeing with especially Penn-Lewis. Witness Lee spoke of that on more than one occasion.

Evan Roberts was very independent and spiritually immature. Initially, the main thing that drew people to his meetings, was his habit of "calling out" people. For example, "In the third row on the balcony is a man who hates his neighbor", or something like that. In the early stages of the revival a "guilty one" would stand up and confess, leading to "oohs" and "aahs" and "amens". Some "guilty ones" were regularly openly shamed by Roberts. Later, it often happened that there was no response to his "calling out". This caused him to despair and to become more and more erratic in his conduct. His behavior increasingly certainly did not endear him to many of his followers.

Evan Roberts' style was similar to that of the Benny Hinns of today.

Jessie Penn-Lewis wrote a well-documented book on the Welsh Revival. She was very positive and credible about the awakening of 1904–1905.

I my opinion the main destroyer of the Welsh Revival was Evan Roberts himself, not "Jezzie".

Interesting perspective. I have read numerous reports of people saying that Penn-Lewis destroyed Roberts' ministry and the Welsh Revival. Thanks for providing a counterpoint.

It seems that the Scylla and Charybdis of the Christian journey is that we can become "dead letters" people on the one hand (like the Pharisees), and on the other side we can become too enamored of sensory experience and thus unbalanced, easily suggestive and led astray. The local churches of Lee perhaps had the worst of both worlds. On the one hand they were influenced by the jot-and-tittle Exclusive Bretheren. On the other hand they were heavily influenced by the Charismatic and Revival themes. I never forget Witness Lee incessantly pounding the theme that we were dead, dormant, stagnant, etc, and we had to "stir ourselves up" and get revived. People were drunk on the Charismatic experience, not on the Holy Spirit. I still remembered the glassy-eyed look in the meetings: ecstasy, euphoria, and excitement, but very little truth. As soon as you critically examine the Nee and Lee teachings, and compare them to the Bible, they fall apart.

So we shouted slogans at each other. Open shaming was habitually practiced, but it was called "training" and so forth. But one sacrificial lamb would be dragged up for all to feed upon. Terrible.

But when you soberly examine scripture, you see a vast disparity between what was taught in those trainings and conferences, and what is written. I now have come to believe that the Holy Spirit will indeed come if you remain and abide in the Word. Yes it may involve repetition, it may involve declaration and insistent prayer. But it is not something for public spectacle. It is more like a private mountaintop kind of experience, that when you come down people can see that you are different. When you open your mouth something else comes forth, instead of the usual vanity.

What showed me that Lee was selling a pseudo-spiritual experience of soulish excitement with little substance was the fact that he habitually ignored and belittled the Word of God. He declared that much of it was a dry hole, void of Christ or Spirit. He could not have been more wrong. Much of the words which he called "vain" and "natural" and "fallen" and "soulish" was actually full of God's Spirit. But Lee didn't linger there, and wait. He simply aped some 19th century Bible teacher and passed on. He was in a hurry for the next teaching, the next revelation. And we all, hungry for the next wave of excitement, went along with him. We quickly passed over the Word in pursuit of more sensory affectations. The Word became "old" to us, and our excitement became "new". So we remained in ignorance, waiting for the next "revival".

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

Interesting perspective. I have read numerous reports of people saying that Penn-Lewis destroyed Roberts' ministry and the Welsh Revival. Thanks for providing a counterpoint.

It seems that the Scylla and Charybdis of the Christian journey is that we can become "dead letters" people on the one hand (like the Pharisees), and on the other side we can become too enamored of sensory experience and thus unbalanced, easily suggestive and led astray. The local churches of Lee perhaps had the worst of both worlds. On the one hand they were influenced by the jot-and-tittle Exclusive Bretheren. On the other hand they were heavily influenced by the Charismatic and Revival themes. I never forget Witness Lee incessantly pounding the theme that we were dead, dormant, stagnant, etc, and we had to "stir ourselves up" and get revived. People were drunk on the Charismatic experience, not on the Holy Spirit. I still remembered the glassy-eyed look in the meetings: ecstasy, euphoria, and excitement, but very little truth. As soon as you critically examine the Nee and Lee teachings, and compare them to the Bible, they fall apart.

So we shouted slogans at each other. Open shaming was habitually practiced, but it was called "training" and so forth. But one sacrificial lamb would be dragged up for all to feed upon. Terrible.

But when you soberly examine scripture, you see a vast disparity between what was taught in those trainings and conferences, and what is written. I now have come to believe that the Holy Spirit will indeed come if you remain and abide in the Word. Yes it may involve repetition, it may involve declaration and insistent prayer. But it is not something for public spectacle. It is more like a private mountaintop kind of experience, that when you come down people can see that you are different. When you open your mouth something else comes forth, instead of the usual vanity.

What showed me that Lee was selling a pseudo-spiritual experience of soulish excitement with little substance was the fact that he habitually ignored and belittled the Word of God. He declared that much of it was a dry hole, void of Christ or Spirit. He could not have been more wrong. Much of the words which he called "vain" and "natural" and "fallen" and "soulish" was actually full of God's Spirit. But Lee didn't linger there, and wait. He simply aped some 19th century Bible teacher and passed on. He was in a hurry for the next teaching, the next revelation. And we all, hungry for the next wave of excitement, went along with him. We quickly passed over the Word in pursuit of more sensory affectations. The Word became "old" to us, and our excitement became "new". So we remained in ignorance, waiting for the next "revival".

I agree with your take on this, especially the idea that Nee and Lee brought together in the "worst of both worlds". I don't doubt for a second that there may be some truth in Jessie Penn-Lewis' teachings or Nee's teachings that were derived from her teachings, however, I believe the danger lies in taking these things to an extreme. If someone in the LC were to read this discussion they would probably claim that "we don't focus on these kind of writings". Now that may be true, but both Nee and Lee did, and I commonly hear Jessie Penn-Lewis' name whenever they attempt to give some lineage of the "recovery". How does the LC view Nee/Lee? They are viewed as final authorities on everything and both are considered to be a MOTA. That is why this subject should be of concern to anyone in the LC.

When I have more time, I am going to provide some quotes from Nee's "The Latent Power of the Soul", and I think it will be immediately evident just how peculiar some of his views are. I do realize that some here may fully agree with Nee, and that is fine. My goal is not to claim that Nee was wrong, but rather to look at some of Nee's teachings that may be considered aberrant.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Have you read that JP-L was instrumental to debilitate Evan Roberts and his evangelical work during the Welch Revival?

Originally Posted by Friedel

This is not true. On the contrary.

Evan Roberts was emotionally unbalanced and was physically very weak. This took a heavy toll on his body and mental state and he had numerous nervous breakdowns. Jessie Penn-Lewis and her husband took him in and he stayed with them for several years. I would rather suggest that she and her husband helped him to recover and they allowed him to stay with them until he felt he was ready to resume his preaching. This simply did not materialize any time soon.

Of course we can't know what really went on between Roberts and JP-L. Some claim that Roberts fell under "Jezzie's" spell.

But does that really concern US? What concerns us is Nee and Lee. They're much closer to us. Lee came down from Nee. Nee came down from Penn-Lewis.

And after being acquainted with both sides of Nee -- his ministry and private life -- it's no surprise Nee was drawn to demonology.

Why? Because he was struggling with his own demons. At the same time he was delivering a unbelievable ministry, he was also falling for the forbidden fruit of women. And. In "The Latent Power of the Soul," he speaks of the latent power of the soul .. no dah. His ministry proves he was no stranger to that power. In his early days, when he was falling weak to the flesh, the saints looked up to him like he was a deity. Talk about fighting demons.

And of course, much closer up, we have come to be acquainted with Lee's demons.

What roll did Penn-Lewis play in all this, and by the way, G.H. Pember? We'll never fully know.

But there's enough there to smell a rat.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by aron

Interesting perspective. I have read numerous reports of people saying that Penn-Lewis destroyed Roberts' ministry and the Welsh Revival. Thanks for providing a counterpoint.

It seems that the Scylla and Charybdis of the Christian journey is that we can become "dead letters" people on the one hand (like the Pharisees), and on the other side we can become too enamored of sensory experience and thus unbalanced, easily suggestive and led astray. The local churches of Lee perhaps had the worst of both worlds. On the one hand they were influenced by the jot-and-tittle Exclusive Bretheren. On the other hand they were heavily influenced by the Charismatic and Revival themes. I never forget Witness Lee incessantly pounding the theme that we were dead, dormant, stagnant, etc, and we had to "stir ourselves up" and get revived. People were drunk on the Charismatic experience, not on the Holy Spirit. I still remembered the glassy-eyed look in the meetings: ecstasy, euphoria, and excitement, but very little truth. As soon as you critically examine the Nee and Lee teachings, and compare them to the Bible, they fall apart.

So we shouted slogans at each other. Open shaming was habitually practiced, but it was called "training" and so forth. But one sacrificial lamb would be dragged up for all to feed upon. Terrible.

But when you soberly examine scripture, you see a vast disparity between what was taught in those trainings and conferences, and what is written. I now have come to believe that the Holy Spirit will indeed come if you remain and abide in the Word. Yes it may involve repetition, it may involve declaration and insistent prayer. But it is not something for public spectacle. It is more like a private mountaintop kind of experience, that when you come down people can see that you are different. When you open your mouth something else comes forth, instead of the usual vanity.

What showed me that Lee was selling a pseudo-spiritual experience of soulish excitement with little substance was the fact that he habitually ignored and belittled the Word of God. He declared that much of it was a dry hole, void of Christ or Spirit. He could not have been more wrong. Much of the words which he called "vain" and "natural" and "fallen" and "soulish" was actually full of God's Spirit. But Lee didn't linger there, and wait. He simply aped some 19th century Bible teacher and passed on. He was in a hurry for the next teaching, the next revelation. And we all, hungry for the next wave of excitement, went along with him. We quickly passed over the Word in pursuit of more sensory affectations. The Word became "old" to us, and our excitement became "new". So we remained in ignorance, waiting for the next "revival".

rl liketh this post.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Dave

No skiing is different. Much easier. Heavy sledding means: difficult, rigorous. Here are some synonyms for heavy sledding to make it clearer and some apply to my statement more than others: arduous, rough, strenuous, demanding, exacting, formidable, hairy, hard, harsh, heavy, knotty, laborious, large order, mean, trying, no picnic, taxing, uncompromising, uphill ...

That's some heavy stuff, man.

[Freedom]

Before I get into the specifics of Nee’s teaching on humans having a “latent power” in their soul, I wanted discuss how he arrives at this conclusion. Chapter 1 of “The Latent Power of the Soul”, is full of speculation by Nee, as well as an extremely literal interpretation of Genesis 1-3. Nee argues that because God gave Adam dominion over the whole earth, it would have necessitated him to be much more powerful that we are today. Consider the following excerpt from chapter 1:

Adam's Authority and Physical Prowess
"And God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. And God blessed them: and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it; and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth" (Gen. 1:27-28). Have dominion over the earth, says God.


Friends, have you ever thought how immense the earth is? Suppose a master asks a servant to manage two houses. He makes the appointment on the basis of tire latter's ability to take care of them. No one servant is able to handle all the houses located on a given lane, for he cannot do what is beyond his ability. A hard master may demand his servant to do a little more than his duty requires, but never will he demand his servant to undertake anything beyond his ability. Would God, then, ask Adam to do what he was incapable of doing? We can therefore conclude that if Adam was capable of managing the earth, his prowess was most certainly superior to ours today. He had power, ability, and skill. He received all of these abilities freshly from the Creator.


Although we may not rate Adam's power as being a billion times over ours, we can nonetheless safely reckon it to be a million times over ours. Else he would not have been able to perform the duty commanded him of God. As for us today, though, if we were required to merely sweep a lane three times daily, we would not be able afterwards to straighten our back. How then could we possibly rule the earth? Yet Adam not only ruled the earth but he also had dominion over the fish of the sea, the birds of the heavens, and every living thing on the earth. To rule is not just to sit by doing nothing. It requires management and work. From a seeing of this we should recognize the superior power which Adam in fact possessed. It far exceeds our present situation.

I’m sure that Adam had different capabilities that we have now, however, isn’t it a bit much to say that he had power “a million times over ours”. How does Nee know this? It is nothing but speculation, and it may or may not be true.


To further show what kind of “power” Adam had, Nee then goes on to say that in order to name all the animals it would have required incredible brain memory. He also discusses the size of the Garden of Eden and what it would take to manage it:

Adam's Brain Power and Memory
"And out of the ground Jehovah God formed every beast of the field, and every bird of the heavens; and brought them unto the man to see what he would call them; and whatsoever the man called every living creature, that was the name thereof" (Gen. 2.19). My friends, is this not marvelous? Suppose you were to take a dictionary and to read all the names of the animals; would you not confess that you could neither recognize nor memorize them all? Yet Adam gave names to all the birds and animals. How intelligent he must have been!


Adam's Managerial Power
"And Jehovah God took the man and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it" (Gen. 2.15). From looking into how Adam governed the earth let us now dwell somewhat on the things which God charged him to do. God commanded him to dress the garden of Eden. This needed to be done systematically. How big was the garden? Genesis 2.10-14 mentions four rivers; namely, Pishon, Gihon, Hiddekel and Euphrates. They all flowed from Eden and divided into four river regions. Can you imagine now how big the garden was? How strong must Adam be to be charged with dressing a land which was surrounded by four rivers! He was not only to dress it but also to keep it; to keep the garden from being invaded by the enemy. Therefore the power which Adam had in that day must have been tremendous. He must have been a man with astounding ability. All his powers were inherent in his living soul. We may look upon Adam's power as supernatural and miraculous, but so far as Adam was concerned these abilities were not miraculous but human, not supernatural but natural.

Like I said, all of this speculation may or may not be true, and the bottom line is that it’s just speculation. Genesis doesn’t leave enough details in order to arrive at these type of conclusions.

After all this speculation on what kind of “power” Adam had, Nee discusses what happened to it after the fall:

The Fall of Man
Adam is a soul. His spirit and body are joined in his soul. That astonishing power which we have just mentioned is present in Adam's soul. In other words, the living soul, which is the result of the coming together of the spirit and the body, possesses unthinkable supernatural power. At the fall, though, the power which distinguishes Adam from us is lost. Yet this does not mean there is no longer such power; it only denotes that though this ability is still in man, it is nonetheless "frozen" or immobilized. According to Genesis 6, after the fall man becomes flesh. The flesh envelops the whole being and subjugates him. Man was originally a living soul; now, having fallen, he becomes flesh. His soul had been meant to submit to the spirit's control; now it is subject to the dominion of the flesh. Hence the Lord said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for that he also is flesh" (Gen. 6.3). When God here mentioned man, He called him flesh, for in His eyes that was now what he was. Consequently it is recorded in the Bible that "all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth" (Gen. 6.12); and again, "upon the flesh of man shall it (the holy anointing oil, representing in type the Holy Spirit) not be poured." (Ex. 30.32); and further, "by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in His sight" (Rom. 3.20).

So Nee went from saying that Adam had this extraordinary power, to claiming that this power is now immobilized and even still resides in all of us in that immobilized form. I don’t know about anyone else, but I see all kind of problems with this kind of argument. I really have no interest in speculating on what kind of capabilities or power Adam had, and I think it’s fair to say that we will never know. To make the claim that this “power” still resides in us in an “immobilized” form seems a bit far-fetched to me.

[Freedom]

Now I will point out some things that Nee says about this “latent power”. This also comes from chapter 1. Here 2 quotes on how Nee thinks this “latent power” works:

Today in each and every person who lives on earth lies this Adamic power, though it is confined in him and is not able to freely express itself. Yet such power is in every man's soul just as it was in Adam's soul at the beginning. Since today's soul is under siege by the flesh, this power is likewise confined by the flesh. The work of the devil nowadays is to stir up man's soul and to release this latent power within it as a deception for spiritual power. The reason for my mentioning these things is to warn ourselves of the special relationship between man's soul and Satan in the last days.
We have already seen how Adam possessed special supernatural ability, though in actuality what he had was not at all special or supernatural, however much it may appear that way to us today. Before his fall Adam could quite naturally exercise this ability with ease, since it was embodied in his soul. But after his fall, this power of his was interned by his body. Formerly the body was a help to Adam's powerful soul; now the soul had fallen, and his power was circumscribed by the shell of the flesh. Satan, however, attempts to break open this fleshly shell and to release the power dormant in man's soul in order to gain control over man. Many do not understand this strategy, being deceived into accepting it as of God.

The modern-day Church of Christ, Scientist was founded by Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy. She denied the existence of sickness, pain, sin, and death (though Mrs. Eddy has already died. Since according to her teaching there is no such thing as sickness, whenever one is sick he only needs to exercise his mind against any recognition of pain and he will be healed. This means, then, that if one believes in no sickness he will not be sick. So too, if he does not believe in sin he will not sin. By training man's will, mind, and emotion to the point of absolutely denying the existence of these things-viewing them as false and deceptive he will find them nonexistent indeed.
When this teaching was first promulgated, it was opposed by many people. Physicians especially opposed it, for if this were true, then there would be no need for physicians. Yet following their examination of those people healed by the Christian Scientist, these doctors were unable to repudiate it as false. Consequently, more and more people believe; even many famous scientists and physicians embrace this teaching. This is not at all surprising, though, since there is a reservoir of tremendous power in the soul just waiting to be released from the confines of the flesh.

Notice the second quote in particular. This one caught my attention, especially the part in the bold. Because Nee believes that current the work of Satan is to release this “latent” power of the soul, it leads to all type of strange conclusions. Nee makes the claim that people belonging to a cult (Church of Christ, Scientist) can indeed heal themselves from sickness by utilizing this latent power. Is this not a bizarre teaching? According to Nee, the same thing that many Christians pray for (healing from sickness) can be accomplished through other questionable means. These type of statements by Nee are the reason I wanted to have a discussion on this book and possible other books of Nee that those in the LC doesn’t discuss. If it was really possible for someone to be healed by not believing in sickness what would stop people from trying to heal themselves in that way? If someone had found out how to do this, why wouldn’t many people be doing this now? This kind of teaching obviously proves itself to be false.
Here is something else that Nee says which is just as peculiar:

Several years ago I made the acquaintance of an Indian. He told me of a friend of his in Hinduism who could reveal secrets of people accurately. Once he wished to test the ability of his Hindu friend. So he invited him to his home, and sure enough the Hindu was able to reveal everything that had been put into each drawer of the home. Later my Indian acquaintance asked his friend to go outside and wait while he wrapped a most valuable object in cloth and paper before placing it in a box and depositing it in a locked drawer. His Hindu friend returned inside and was able to reveal what the valuable object was without error. This was unquestionably due to the exercise of soul power that was able to penetrate all physical barriers. Mrs. Jessie Penn-Lewis, whom we have quoted earlier, once wrote the following:
I once met a man in North India, who had access to the highest circles of society in Simla, the summer seat of the Government of India, who told me one evening of his connection with the Mahatmas in India and in other countries of Asia. He said that he knew of great political events weeks and months before they came to pass. `I do not depend for news on telegrams and newspapers. They only record past events, we know events before they take place,' he said. How can a man in London know the events happening in India, and viceversa? It was explained to me that it was through `soul-force' being projected by men who knew the secret of the Mahatmas.* (*Overcomer magazine for 1921-23, quoted in Mrs. Jessie Penn-Lewis, Soul and Spirit. Poole, Dorset, England, Overcomer Literature Trust, 1968?, p.55-56. Also available in the United States from Christian Literature Crusade, Fort Washington, Pa.)

I can honestly say that before reading this book, I had no idea that Nee believed these things. Regarding the things of charismatic Christianity, I don’t dismiss that modern miracles or other works of power may occur, but I am always cautious whenever I hear of these things. What strikes me about Nee’s beliefs is that he believes that people can do these miraculous things in the absence of God. I don’t know if Satan empowers people to do “miraculous” things, however, I can say that I have never seen any example of this. I noticed Nee’s examples are not anything he has witnessed directly.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Before I get into the specifics of Nee’s teaching on humans having a “latent power” in their soul, I wanted discuss how he arrives at this conclusion. Chapter 1 of “The Latent Power of the Soul”, is full of speculation by Nee, as well as an extremely literal interpretation of Genesis 1-3. Nee argues that because God gave Adam dominion over the whole earth, it would have necessitated him to be much more powerful that we are today. Consider the following excerpt from chapter 1:

I’m sure that Adam had different capabilities that we have now, however, isn’t it a bit much to say that he had power “a million times over ours”. How does Nee know this? It is nothing but speculation, and it may or may not be true.

To further show what kind of “power” Adam had, Nee then goes on to say that in order to name all the animals it would have required incredible brain memory. He also discusses the size of the Garden of Eden and what it would take to manage it:

Like I said, all of this speculation may or may not be true, and the bottom line is that it’s just speculation. Genesis doesn’t leave enough details in order to arrive at these type of conclusions.

After all this speculation on what kind of “power” Adam had, Nee discusses what happened to it after the fall:

So Nee went from saying that Adam had this extraordinary power, to claiming that this power is now immobilized and even still resides in all of us in that immobilized form. I don’t know about anyone else, but I see all kind of problems with this kind of argument. I really have no interest in speculating on what kind of capabilities or power Adam had, and I think it’s fair to say that we will never know. To make the claim that this “power” still resides in us in an “immobilized” form seems a bit far-fetched to me.

Nee was a young man when he wrote this. Sure he might have been brilliant. But all young men are prone to far-fetch fantasies.

And he was obviously writing under the spell of Penn-Lewis, as he quotes her over and over again, as an authority on these matters. And Penn-Lewis was too far-fetched to use as springboard.

As a result Nee couldn't help but be far-fetched. And I think that's being kind. As I think all this latent power of the soul is actually a little tetched. But it suits Nee's sense of specialness, by condemning all of man's religions as products of the latent power of the soul. At this point Nee was a budding MOTA.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by awareness

Nee was a young man when he wrote this. Sure he might have been brilliant. But all young men are prone to far-fetch fantasies.

And he was obviously writing under the spell of Penn-Lewis, as he quotes her over and over again, as an authority on these matters. And Penn-Lewis was too far-fetched to use as springboard.

As a result Nee couldn't help but be far-fetched. And I think that's being kind. As I think all this latent power of the soul is actually a little tetched. But it suits Nee's sense of specialness, by condemning all of man's religions as products of the latent power of the soul. At this point Nee was a budding MOTA.

When I look at things in context, considering how young both Nee and Lee were when they started their ministries, it seems all the more ridiculous. That's not to say that those who are young cannot have a ministry, but it seems that the case with both WN and WL was that they each got the idea very early on that they were someone special who saw things that no one else saw.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Freedom

When I look at things in context, considering how young both Nee and Lee were when they started their ministries, it seems all the more ridiculous. That's not to say that those who are young cannot have a ministry, but it seems that the case with both WN and WL was that they each got the idea very early on that they were someone special who saw things that no one else saw.

I agree. Was it megalomania? Narcissism? or other egotistical personality disorder? All such wondering's are speculations. But given our present benefit of hindsight, something of the sort was going on.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by awareness

I agree. Was it megalomania? Narcissism? or other egotistical personality disorder? All such wondering's are speculations. But given our present benefit of hindsight, something of the sort was going on.

When you look at the environment of Nee's China with the surrounding denominations and the outside imperialists which had been influencing Nee's world, his response is not all that surprising. Of course, Nee was also in contact with Pember’s writings, Margaret Barber (who introduced him to J. N. Darby, Madam Jeanne Guyon, Jessie Penn-Lewis, D. M. Panton, T. Austin Sparks) and others. He probably felt he hit the mother lode of spiritual insight with those books. I remember that WL once mentioned C.A. Coates and so I found and purchased as many of Coates books as possible which were Brethren books but more on the mystical side. I also found books by Pember outside of Earth’s Earliest Ages which were quite remarkable and very different than EEA. I am sure WN and WL were delving in those books and believed they found something special that Christianity couldn’t discover because Christianity was blinded and limited by Western culture. When you consider that Angus Kinnear from England published books such as “The Normal Christian Life” and “Changed into His Likeness” outsiders such as Kinnear were impressed by Nee’s spiritual insight. Also, WN’s books sold well in the US. I remember one of WN’s books positively reviewed by the Billy Graham association. His books were mentioned in Christianity Today.

You also have CLC publishing Nee’s books which provided legitimacy. In addition, you have a legitimate co-worker of Nee in WL who had established churches in Taiwan following the revolution in China. What was not to believe? They may have been like us at some point…believed they had found unique insight into the Bible because of their exposure to Christian writings which quite honestly were not “traditional fundamental writings” although they were certainly Christian but with a unique twist. Obviously the entire “local church” idea sprung out of Nee’s exposure to Darby and Brethren teachings, his surroundings (as I noted previously) and the 1881 "Little Flock Hymn Book" (Brethren).

Didn’t we all believe we had found something unique that was not available in Christianity when we first were involved with the LC? When I first became involved in the LC and was introduced to pray-reading and calling out “Oh Lord Jesus” I thought, wow, a practical way to carry out the message of WN in his books since I had already read them and shared them with whomever would listen. I was also introduced to “The Normal Christian Church Life” at the same time by WN and because of the other writings I had been introduced to by WN (via Angus Kinnear) I was willing to buy into the whole picture.

The craziness developed out of Lee’s insistence on controlling everything and some of his unusual practices which really didn’t accomplish what we all thought they would: the Normal Christian Life. It became the Abnormal Christian Life in kind of a crazy Church Life structure. Whether Nee or Lee were megalomaniacs is beyond the point. It is how these individuals affected us and overall they turned the "local church" experience into a cult like culture which is still going on today.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Dave

The craziness developed out of Lee’s insistence on controlling everything and some of his unusual practices which really didn’t accomplish what we all thought they would: the Normal Christian Life. It became the Abnormal Christian Life in kind of a crazy Church Life structure. Whether Nee or Lee were megalomaniacs is beyond the point. It is how these individuals affected us and overall they turned the "local church" experience into a cult like culture which is still going on today.

I believe it to be a combination of both teachings and practices. In many cases, it is probably an overemphasis of certain teachings. What comes to mind is how influence both Nee and Lee were influence by the "inner life" works. It may have seemed to Nee at the time that these writings offered the opportunity to have a deeper experience of the Lord one could through mainstream Christianity.

In the LC, whether anyone will admit it or not, there is the pressure placed on everyone to be "spiritual". Actually they will usually say just the opposite that we shouldn't strive to be "spiritual". When you look at the example set by LC leaders, it is obvious that there is a heavy emphasis on spirituality. At the surface it seems like this is a good thing to emphasize.

Several years ago, I witnessed someone in the LC have a complete mental breakdown over the period of several months by attempting to be too "spiritual". Nee and Lee did know how to convey teachings that at least sounded good, but they didn't know how to properly put these teachings into practice. That's not even to mention teachings that should have never been put into practice in the first place.

Did the ministries of those like Jessie Penn-Lewis have anything useful? Maybe, but my concern is that Nee did not know what he was dealing with. As a young man, he encountered all kinds of writings that may have sounded good, but did he really know what he was getting himself into? Did he really know how to separate the wheat from the chaff? I really feel like Nee and Lee were playing with fire. They felt they knew it all, and they were reckless. To us their ministries just seemed to offer a good alternative to the status quote.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Dave

The craziness developed out of Lee’s insistence on controlling everything and some of his unusual practices which really didn’t accomplish what we all thought they would: the Normal Christian Life. It became the Abnormal Christian Life in kind of a crazy Church Life structure. Whether Nee or Lee were megalomaniacs is beyond the point. It is how these individuals affected us and overall they turned the "local church" experience into a cult like culture which is still going on today.

In the years between the death of Lee and his own quarantine, Titus Chu had his army of full-timers reading and re-reading the books of Nee and Lee to expose the many errors in the Blended Brothers practices. These same errors existed while Lee was alive, but of course TC dared not to say a thing.

In our local elders and deacons meetings we read thru Nee's Normal Christian Church Life together. I had somehow naively thought that this book was the definitive "blueprint" for our practice of the churchlife and the work of ministry. Was I wrong! What we had at LSM had nothing to do with Nee's writing. Page after page of Nee's writing was violated by the practices of LSM, which btw did not start with the Blendeds, but with Lee decades earlier. What Lee developed at LSM had nothing to do with either the Bible nor with Nee's book.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Several years ago, I witnessed someone in the LC have a complete mental breakdown over the period of several months by attempting to be too "spiritual". Nee and Lee did know how to convey teachings that at least sounded good, but they didn't know how to properly put these teachings into practice. That's not even to mention teachings that should have never been put into practice in the first place.

The "God-ordained-way" of the Bible is to have local shepherds, teachers, elders, and ministers to lead and care for the local flock. The Lee system of leading neutered the functions of these brothers. They were simply reduced to facilitators or mindless franchisees connecting their people with a distant publishing house.

So it's no wonder we had so many failed marriages, mental breakdown, and general "disconnects" with real life. Evil workers simply considered these as collateral, the inevitable consequences of spiritual warfare. Their callous attitudes towards personal pain infected the whole system.

With either Anaheim or Cleveland at the helm, I eventually concluded that individual member churches existed solely for the prosperity of the leadership at headquarters. We served only to build their empires and provide them glory here on earth.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Ohio

In the years between the death of Lee and his own quarantine, Titus Chu had his army of full-timers reading and re-reading the books of Nee and Lee to expose the many errors in the Blended Brothers practices. These same errors existed while Lee was alive, but of course TC dared not to say a thing.

In our local elders and deacons meetings we read thru Nee's Normal Christian Church Life together. I had somehow naively thought that this book was the definitive "blueprint" for our practice of the churchlife and the work of ministry. Was I wrong! What we had at LSM had nothing to do with Nee's writing. Page after page of Nee's writing was violated by the practices of LSM, which btw did not start with the Blendeds, but with Lee decades earlier. What Lee developed at LSM had nothing to do with either the Bible nor with Nee's book.

Ohio, you make some excellent points. What’s interesting to me is why it was thought that this (NCCL) was the blueprint to begin with—but we were under the WN spell. However, Nee raised an important issue-because he was a young idealist-a monumental issue: why do we have so many divisions in Christianity ad infinitum? Is there really a solution? In essence, Nee was asking a question but Lee tried to provide an answer which was really not an answer. It degenerated into something worse than what exists in Evangelical churches today.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The "God-ordained-way" of the Bible is to have local shepherds, teachers, elders, and ministers to lead and care for the local flock. The Lee system of leading neutered the functions of these brothers. They were simply reduced to facilitators or mindless franchisees connecting their people with a distant publishing house.

So it's no wonder we had so many failed marriages, mental breakdown, and general "disconnects" with real life. Evil workers simply considered these as collateral, the inevitable consequences of spiritual warfare. Their callous attitudes towards personal pain infected the whole system.

With either Anaheim or Cleveland at the helm, I eventually concluded that individual member churches existed solely for the prosperity of the leadership at headquarters. We served only to build their empires and provide them glory here on earth.

I completely agree with this. The longer I have been in the LC, the more I have come to realize that it has nothing to offer me. It didn't used to feel that way, because I didn't see what I see now. For those who aren't aware that their local leadership is powerless to help them, it can end up being a dangerous situation.

I feel like there are several factors at play here, the most obvious being the required submission to the BB's. This is what renders the local elders and shepherds powerless. I think that even if the BB's are removed from the picture, there is still a problem.

I have no knowledge of how Titus is, but I get the impression that he might feel that the teachings of Nee and Lee (to a lesser extent) are completely acceptable if practiced in the absence of the BB's and Anaheim. Is this correct Ohio?

I really feel that many of Nee's and Lee's teachings, when put into practice, are prone to failure. Since I am most knowledgeable of Lee's teachings, I can comment on him more. I have read all kinds of WL's writings on shepherding, the "God-Ordained Way", etc. If these teachings really were what they are made out to be, then why are they a failure time after time? Why are brothers in 2014 still trying to bring churches into the practice of PSRP? I refuse to participate in that kind of nonsense, because I know better. Most in the LC don't, so they are lead down a path destined for failure. Most of the time, I think that failure just results in discouragement, but the instances of strained marriages, mental breakdowns, etc are what are particularly troubling to me.

From what I have read of Nee's writings, many things could be dangerous if taken too seriously. I think "The Latent Power of the Soul" is a prime example of that. Nee's more mainstream teachings seem more "safe", but even then great care has to be taken regarding how they are put into practice. Just look at what Lee did with Nee's concept of a local church.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Dave

Ohio, you make some excellent points. What’s interesting to me is why it was thought that this (NCCL) was the blueprint to begin with—but we were under the WN spell. However, Nee raised an important issue-because he was a young idealist-a monumental issue: why do we have so many divisions in Christianity ad infinitum? Is there really a solution? In essence, Nee was asking a question but Lee tried to provide an answer which was really not an answer. It degenerated into something worse than what exists in Evangelical churches today.

I guess that as a young man, Nee really felt like he wanted to find the answers to important issues, and he felt that he had the means to do so. I think what essentially happened is that his proposed solution (NCCL), when put into practice, didn't quite work out so well.

I've always understood that Nee never really had a solid opportunity to put his concept of the local churches into practice (Steve Isitt's recent writing on Nee provides insight on that), so the concept of local churches were left to Lee's imagination. Lee's version does not match what Nee conveyed in the NCCL, and I think Lee himself eventually realized that. He was quick to oust brothers when they pointed out the disparities between the current state of the local churches and what the NCCL describes. That's not even considering how "correct" Nee's view of the local church is.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Dave

I remember reading some parts of this book years ago as well as the The Spiritual Man. Nee was heavily influenced by Jessie Penn-Lewis as I read her books as well. If you try to follow this stuff you will go nuts-literally. It's not for the faint of heart. Nee tries to show that it is all Biblical but the Bible, for example in the NT - Paul's writings, are heavy sledding in many parts so it is not just Nee. It's the Bible in many parts of the OT and especially in John and many of Paul's writings. Heavy sledding and people think they have it figured out but they are still working on it. Love God, love your brother...the rest will work itself out.

Dave, if you care to say anymore about this, specifically about the applicable parts of Jessie Penn-Lewis' teachings, it may be instructive. Probably a lot of us (well, I'll speak for myself, anyway) aren't that familiar w/Penn-Lewis' writings, other than that she highly emphasized highly subjective experience.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I guess that as a young man, Nee really felt like he wanted to find the answers to important issues, and he felt that he had the means to do so. I think what essentially happened is that his proposed solution (NCCL), when put into practice, didn't quite work out so well.

I've always understood that Nee never really had a solid opportunity to put his concept of the local churches into practice (Steve Isitt's recent writing on Nee provides insight on that), so the concept of local churches were left to Lee's imagination. Lee's version does not match what Nee conveyed in the NCCL, and I think Lee himself eventually realized that. He was quick to oust brothers when they pointed out the disparities between the current state of the local churches and what the NCCL describes. That's not even considering how "correct" Nee's view of the local church is.

A couple of my college professors used to say that, We don't know whether Communism works or not because we've never had real Communism before. Of course, the way Stalin and other Communist leaders governed was far from the idealistic teachings in their literature. Which raises questions about whether the tyrannies of Stalin, Pol Pol, etc., should be considered as failures of "Communism," or as never having been "real Communists" in the first place.

Perhaps it's six of one, half dozen of the other?

My point is, maybe Lee was genuinely trying to build what Nee proposed. Or, maybe he was using Nee as a springboard to build up his own little family empire.

Perhaps a little of both.

But we can at least acknowledge, whatever it is exactly, it didn't turn out so well.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I completely agree with this. The longer I have been in the LC, the more I have come to realize that it has nothing to offer me. It didn't used to feel that way, because I didn't see what I see now. For those who aren't aware that their local leadership is powerless to help them, it can end up being a dangerous situation.

I feel like there are several factors at play here, the most obvious being the required submission to the BB's. This is what renders the local elders and shepherds powerless. I think that even if the BB's are removed from the picture, there is still a problem.

I have no knowledge of how Titus is, but I get the impression that he might feel that the teachings of Nee and Lee (to a lesser extent) are completely acceptable if practiced in the absence of the BB's and Anaheim. Is this correct Ohio?

Events which transpired after the quarantine proved this to be not true. Like WL and the Blindeds, it is still his way or the highway. History concludes that TC only used the teachings of Nee to undermine the leadership of the Blendeds, because he had long ago concluded that he was the rightful "heir" to Lee, and fully endorsed the growing clamor in SE Asia of "Nee, Lee, Chu."

[aron]

Originally Posted by Dave

Nee raised an important issue-because he was a young idealist-a monumental issue: why do we have so many divisions in Christianity ad infinitum? Is there really a solution? In essence, Nee was asking a question but Lee tried to provide an answer which was really not an answer. It degenerated into something worse than what exists in Evangelical churches today.

I am not sure that "divisions", as we understand them, is entirely accurate. Jesus said, "In my Father's house are many abodes". There are multiple abodes, and multiple gatherings can be seen as multiplication of the Father's house, rather than division. In John 12 Jesus talked about many grains of wheat. In Revelations, John heard the sound of many waters.

The assessment of "divisions" is subjective, based on how you want to see things, and how you want to interpret the words of someone writng 2,000 years ago. I have mentioned already that 'ecclesia' had meanings different from what we call 'church' today. Today we massage our terminology, and we can have multiple 'meetings' of 'one church'. But we're just re-arranging words according to preference. So we end up condemning others, and congratulate ourselves for doing the same thing. And how is the unification of the church under Nee and then Lee any better than revived popery?

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

I am not sure that "divisions" is accurate. Jesus said, "In my Father's house are many abodes". There are multiple abodes. Multiple gatherings can be seen as multiplication of the Father's house, rather than division of the Father's house. In John 12 Jesus talked about many grains of wheat. John heard the sound of many waters in the Book of Revelation.

The assessment of "divisions" is subjective, based on how you want to see things, and how you want to interpret the words of someone writng 2,000 years ago. I have repeatedly demonstrated that 'ecclesia' had meanings different from what we call 'church' today. So today we can have multiple 'meetings' of 'one church', but we are just re-arranging words according to our preferences. So we end up condemning others, and doing the same thing or worse. And how is the unification of the church under Nee and then Lee any better than revived popery? It is the oneness of Babylon: be "one" or else.

At some point, I had the realization that in regards to the idea of "divisions" we were no better than anyone else, and like you say, we are probably worse. The ground of locality doctrine always sounded good to me, until I began to see how it is really put into practice. For example, I have been told saints meeting as the "church in X" aren't an official local church, because they haven't "taken the ground". What in the world is that supposed to mean? According to Lee's doctrine, saints meeting in a city comprise the church in that city, so where does this whole "taking the ground" thing come in? To me, it is proof that Lee created a sect of localism, just like what was warned against.

Additionally, many of the larger "local churches" now have multiple meeting halls in one city, being divided by "districts" or sections of a city. If the ground of locality doctrine defines the boundaries of a city as a local church, then how come they now subdivide cities? Another thing that comes to mind is that many meetings are divided by language (ethnicity). I see lots and lots of division in the LC, the very thing they speak out against.

I also don't intend to claim that the doctrine of "local churches" when practiced correctly according to Nee, would be anything better. I mentioned earlier that I get the impression that Nee probably never had a solid opportunity to see how his teaching on "local churches" played out. Considering that he himself was excommunicated from the Shanghai Assembly, maybe he himself realized later on that his teaching wasn't going to work like he thought.

[HERn]

I think another de facto division has entered the LSM-associated local churches and that is between those who have graduated from the full-time training and those regular ones who have not.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Additionally, many of the larger "local churches" now have multiple meeting halls in one city, being divided by "districts" or sections of a city. If the ground of locality doctrine defines the boundaries of a city as a local church, then how come they now subdivide cities? Another thing that comes to mind is that many meetings are divided by language (ethnicity). I see lots and lots of division in the LC, the very thing they speak out against.

There is lots and lots of division with the local churches. College meetings, Chinese-speaking meetings, District A and Meeting Hall B. The Lord's move to Europe, Affirmation and Critique, Full Time Training, etc. Subdivision after subdivision. But they simply manage the words to suit. With them, there is one church, but many meetings. But the NT word 'ecclesia' meant both. So it involves managing words to condemn others for doing the same thing that you practice.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by HERn

I think another de facto division has entered the LSM-associated local churches and that is between those who have graduated from the full-time training and those regular ones who have not.

While in the LCs, several brothers confided to me their primary reason for going was to find wives. I also know of cases where brothers were involved in sexual immorality and premarital sex even while in the training up until graduation. I had a picture in my head of a gathering of spoiled young adults looking for mates who were in it receive a badge of honor all while whitewashing and hiding serious problems and sinful lifestyles. However there were definitely a few who went because they loved Jesus also. Yet that picture killed any motivation for me to attend even though my locality had pressured me to go.

My sister in law also attended and had a mental breakdown during the training. She left with what looks like life long schizophrenia from all the stress and criticism from the trainers (she could never be on time for the meetings and they constantly shamed her and made her write reports on ministry lessons/outlines each time). After she came away with mental illness, there was very little sympathy for her from LC members but instead she still received a lot criticism and blaming. The training pretty much ruined her life. It's a good thing you didn't go if you were pressured to do so.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

I am not sure that "divisions" is accurate. Jesus said, "In my Father's house are many abodes". There are multiple abodes. Multiple gatherings can be seen as multiplication of the Father's house, rather than division of the Father's house. In John 12 Jesus talked about many grains of wheat. John heard the sound of many waters in the Book of Revelation.

The assessment of "divisions" is subjective, based on how you want to see things, and how you want to interpret the words of someone writng 2,000 years ago. I have repeatedly demonstrated that 'ecclesia' had meanings different from what we call 'church' today. So today we can have multiple 'meetings' of 'one church', but we are just re-arranging words according to our preferences. So we end up condemning others, and doing the same thing or worse. And how is the unification of the church under Nee and then Lee any better than revived popery? It is the oneness of Babylon: be "one" or else.

I have arrived at many of the same conclusions. Firstly we should note that distorted oneness (think Rome the "oneness" church) has been used to slaughter more genuine children of God than the Roman empire under their Caesars during all the 10 Periods of Persecution. A "divisive heretic infidel" only needed to appear unwilling to actively embrace the Catholic traditions and his life was on the line.

Secondly, what's the difference between an LC with Chinese meetings and workers, and a church which actually labels themselves as Chinese. WL made a strong case that the reality was in the name -- call it by the "right name" and we alone will have all the heavenly blessings God has to give.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

There is lots and lots of division with the local churches. College meetings, Chinese-speaking meetings, District A and Meeting Hall B. The Lord's move to Europe, Affirmation and Critique, Full Time Training, etc. Subdivision after subdivision. But they simply manage the words to suit. With them, there is one church, but many meetings. But the NT word 'ecclesia' meant both. So it involves managing words to condemn others for doing the same thing that you practice.

Exactly!

Which by the way is the definition of hypocrisy.

Can anyone explain the substantive difference between the "Church in Cleveland, Hall 2" and the "2nd Church of Christ" located in Cleveland?

Word games. I grew weary of them. So I finally left.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by bearbear

My sister in law also attended and had a mental breakdown during the training. She left with what looks like life long schizophrenia from all the stress and criticism from the trainers (she could never be on time for the meetings and they constantly shamed her and made her write reports on ministry lessons/outlines each time). After she came away with mental illness, there was very little sympathy for her from LC members but instead she still received a lot criticism and blaming. The training pretty much ruined her life. It's a good thing you didn't go if you were pressured to do so.

So very sad!

I do know that one of the triggers for adult onset psychosis is an overwhelming stressful situation like that which occurs during rejection or shaming.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by bearbear

My sister in law also attended and had a mental breakdown during the training. She left with what looks like life long schizophrenia from all the stress and criticism from the trainers (she could never be on time for the meetings and they constantly shamed her and made her write reports on ministry lessons/outlines each time). After she came away with mental illness, there was very little sympathy for her from LC members but instead she still received a lot criticism and blaming. The training pretty much ruined her life. It's a good thing you didn't go if you were pressured to do so.

When I read this I knew immediately that I needed to pray for this sister of yours. I hope we all pray for her healing from the influence of the LC. Don't get me wrong. I don't pray routinely. But I just had a sense of urgency for this sister and for God's mercy.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by bearbear

My sister in law also attended and had a mental breakdown during the training. She left with what looks like life long schizophrenia from all the stress and criticism from the trainers (she could never be on time for the meetings and they constantly shamed her and made her write reports on ministry lessons/outlines each time). After she came away with mental illness, there was very little sympathy for her from LC members but instead she still received a lot criticism and blaming. The training pretty much ruined her life. It's a good thing you didn't go if you were pressured to do so.

Those training were intense even back when I was in "the church." Ohio is right. They should carry a warning label. But then, so should the LCs. On the other hand, persons susceptible to psychosis breakdown under stresses that others can manage. Dave, you probably can remember instances where new hires had psychotic breaks when the state agency we worked for sent them to Tallahassee for new employee orientation. One of them was hospitalized in a mental health center where I was on the treatment team.

[aron]

Originally Posted by zeek

persons susceptible to psychosis breakdown under stresses that others can manage....remember where new hires had psychotic breaks when the state agency we worked for sent them to Tallahassee for new employee orientation. One of them was hospitalized in a mental health center where I was on the treatment team.

Yes but the world is supposed to be like that: stress upon stress. The church, however, is not supposed to be like that. "Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives."

The push now, from what I hear, is not only to go to the FTTA, but to "serve the ministry" afterward. It would be interesting to see the numbers of how many are on payroll in England and Europe today, compared to 5 or 10 years ago. The FTTA is now the pipeline to serfdom the Living Stream Ministry. To me this is the slavery Paul mentioned in Galatians 5:1. Once you say yes you are in the pipeline and subject to further demands. "The leech has two daughters: give, give they cry."

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by Dave

When I read this I knew immediately that I needed to pray for this sister of yours. I hope we all pray for her healing from the influence of the LC. Don't get me wrong. I don't pray routinely. But I just had a sense of urgency for this sister and for God's mercy.

Thank you Dave. Your prayers will definitely help since there may not be many praying for her outside of her family. She trusted her life with the LC, but the LC spit her back out and treated her like a leper due to mental illness. Yet I shouldn't have said her life is ruined. It may seem so, but we believe God still has a plan for her life and will pray for her healing from hurt and betrayal.

Actually during one of the winter or summer trainings they made an announcement that anyone "with psychological problems should not apply to the FTTA", suggesting that my sister in law was not the only person to develop mental illness during the training. The irony was my sister-in law probably along with many others was perfectly healthy before going into the training. She was a normal happy and joyful person who loved Jesus. After she left, she became a totally different person and the joy and happiness left her completely and she was later diagnosed with schizophrenia (had to be hospitalized and given life-long medication).

Yet along with what aron said, I agree the FTTA isn't a place to find rest or be rehabilitated. As they themselves say, it's a place "to get trained", therefore anything goes. The FTTA is a Witness Lee cloning factory that only takes model LC saints as input to mold them into hardcore soldiers for the "Lord's Recovery". Any saints with defects and don't fit the standard model are to be thrown away and discarded.

Matthew 11:28
"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest."

The only good thing to come out of it so far was that it opened my wife's eyes to what the LC leadership was really like in the hypocritical way they and the elders of my LC treated my sister. It opened the door for me to share all my feelings with my wife and lead her into reading more of LCs history. After we left, we even got calls from my wife's aunt (her and her husband are elders of an LC in Texas) telling her "not to blame the ministry" for what happened to her sister. In their eyes, even though they were family, they couldn't bring themselves to blame the ministry which was beyond reproach. If something went wrong, my sister-in law was to blame and not the toxic environment in the FTTA and the absence of love in the LC elite.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Thank you Dave. Your prayers will definitely help since there may not be many praying for her outside of her family. She trusted her life with the LC, but the LC spit her back out and treated her like a leper due to mental illness. Yet I shouldn't have said her life is ruined. It may seem so, but we believe God still has a plan for her life and will pray for her healing from hurt and betrayal.

Actually during one of the winter or summer trainings they made an announcement that anyone "with psychological problems should not apply to the FTTA", suggesting that my sister in law was not the only person to develop mental illness during the training. The irony was my sister-in law probably along with many others was perfectly healthy before going into the training. She was a normal happy and joyful person who loved Jesus. After she left, she became a totally different person and the joy and happiness left her completely and she was later diagnosed with schizophrenia (had to be hospitalized and given life-long medication).

Yet along with what aron said, I agree the FTTA isn't a place to find rest or be rehabilitated. As they themselves say, it's a place "to get trained", therefore anything goes. The FTTA is a Witness Lee cloning factory that only takes model LC saints as input to mold them into hardcore soldiers for the "Lord's Recovery". Any saints with defects and don't fit the standard model are to be thrown away and discarded.

Matthew 11:28
"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest."

The only good thing to come out of it so far was that it opened my wife's eyes to what the LC leadership was really like in the hypocritical way they and the elders of my LC treated my sister. It opened the door for me to share all my feelings with my wife and lead her into reading more of LCs history. After we left, we even got calls from my wife's aunt (her and her husband are elders of an LC in Texas) telling her "not to blame the ministry" for what happened to her sister. In their eyes, even though they were family they couldn't bring themselves to blame the ministry which was beyond reproach. If something went wrong, my sister-in law was to blame and not the toxic environment in the FTTA and the absence of love in the LC elite.

It's heartbreaking to hear stories like this. What also is troubling is that it seems these kind of stories are much more common than LC leadership would like anyone to think. I can think of a number of people I know in the LC who have been under severe mental duress as a result of LC involvement. Actually, one of the reasons that I have distanced myself from the LC (though still being involved) is because I was beginning to feel like certain stresses of the LC were having an adverse effect on my mental heath.

I wish I could go more into detail in regards to some of those I know in the LC. Simply put, I have seen some who have had panic attacks, severe depression, pent up anger, and the list goes on. Something that is a common factor in all of these situations is that LC elders and BB's do not accept any responsibility for their involvement in these things. Furthermore, what is saddening, is that many times these individuals end up blaming themselves for their problems.

Back when the CRI published their "We Were Wrong" journal, something that they lauded the LC for is the "dedication" of its members. I think they said something like the LC is one of the most dedicated groups of Christians that they have seen. On the surface this sounds like something good, a positive attribute of the LC. From my point of view, this is actually quite a big problem. When such a high level of devotion/dedication is expected, that those who can't measure up are consequently put in a position where they feel like they are inferior. I know that some in this position will just end up feeling discouraged, however, this can easily be the beginning of a much worse mental decline.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

... what's the difference between an LC with Chinese meetings and workers, and a church which actually labels themselves as Chinese. WL made a strong case that the reality was in the name -- call it by the "right name" and we alone will have all the heavenly blessings God has to give.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Can anyone explain the substantive difference between the "Church in Cleveland, Hall 2" and the "2nd Church of Christ" located in Cleveland?

Yesterday I was driving through the edge of a small town and there, side by side, in essentially identical buildings, was a Baptist and a Methodist church. Surely it gave the impression of division. But really who can say? How do we know that the two congregations are not quite close? Only the heart knows. A sign on the front lawn doesn't make division, nor unity. We simply don't know.

And I'm not talking ecumenicalism. I'm talking about receiving one another in the name of Jesus Christ. Either you do or you don't. Either you place burdens on others or you accept them as they are. Either you ignore your neighbor or you love them with the love of God, who sent His Son for us while we were yet sinners.

I remember LC saints who would drive past one meeting to go to another that they felt was more "one" with "the ministry". And so forth. We can go on and on how we played with words in the LC, to have our cake and eat it too. The names that you register with the government doesn't make you more or less pleasing to God.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Yet along with what aron said, I agree the FTTA isn't a place to find rest or be rehabilitated. As they themselves say, it's a place "to get trained", therefore anything goes. The FTTA is a Witness Lee cloning factory that only takes model LC saints as input to mold them into hardcore soldiers for the "Lord's Recovery". Any saints with defects and don't fit the standard model are to be thrown away and discarded.

There's an interesting movie about cloning called The Island. When the clones were harvested, they were promised a wonderful destination called the Island, the Recovery equivalent of the FTTA.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by aron

Yes but the world is supposed to be like that: stress upon stress. The church, however, is not supposed to be like that. "Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives."

Sorry, but, based on my experience, I fail to see how churches are different than any other social group.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by zeek

Those training were intense even back when I was in "the church." Ohio is right. They should carry a warning label. But then, so should the LCs. On the other hand, persons susceptible to psychosis breakdown under stresses that others can manage. Dave, you probably can remember instances where new hires had psychotic breaks when the state agency we worked for sent them to Tallahassee for new employee orientation. One of them was hospitalized in a mental health center where I was on the treatment team.

We can think of other environments that might cause these kinds of breakdowns. I'm sure there have been recruits who've had breakdowns in the middle of Marine boot camp. While others successfully complete the program.

Maybe those who break down in Marine boot camp had a predisposition to psychosis (i.e., an underlying chemical issue in their brains, that was already present).

Or, perhaps they just succumbed to stress in a highly stressful environment. I'm not sure we can make too many assumptions about what that "means" for an individual.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

We can think of other environments that might cause these kinds of breakdowns. I'm sure there have been recruits who've had breakdowns in the middle of Marine boot camp. While others successfully complete the program.

Maybe those who break down in Marine boot camp had a predisposition to psychosis (i.e., an underlying chemical issue in their brains, that was already present).

Or, perhaps they just succumbed to stress in a highly stressful environment. I'm not sure that we can assume what that "means" for an individual.

Boot camp, going away to college and marriage were three of the most common causes of psychotic breaks last time I checked. According to the vulnerability theory of psychosis, given enough stress any of us would breakdown. It's a latent weakness of the soul.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by zeek

Those training were intense even back when I was in "the church." Ohio is right. They should carry a warning label. But then, so should the LCs. On the other hand, persons susceptible to psychosis breakdown under stresses that others can manage. Dave, you probably can remember instances where new hires had psychotic breaks when the state agency we worked for sent them to Tallahassee for new employee orientation. One of them was hospitalized in a mental health center where I was on the treatment team.

You were much closer to those trainings than I and probably the problems with individuals was not shared for issues of confidentiality. Also, your background is much more astute regarding those matters than mine.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by zeek

Boot camp, going away to college and marriage were three of the most common causes of psychotic breaks last time I checked. According to the vulnerability theory of psychosis, given enough stress any of us would breakdown. It's a latent weakness of the soul.

I feel like the issue isn't so much that mental breakdowns can occur in the LC (as can be the case in numerous other type of environments), but that this whole issue is something that they don't deal with properly.

First of all, for those experiencing mental, emotional or psychological issues, there is really no help whatsoever. Perhaps the most help someone could expect to get is "fellowship" with an elder. In all the cases I've seen the "help" that brothers will try to provide is to encourage someone to attend more meetings or say something that totally marginalizes that person's problems.

Another issue is that the LC takes a "cookie cutter" approach to practices. There is the strong belief that what works for one person works for everyone. This causes more problems that most in the LC realize. The idea that all college graduates should attend the FTTA regardless of individual situations or needs is a prime example of that. I think this type of mentality sets some up for failure or in some cases, mental breakdowns.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by bearbear

Actually during one of the winter or summer trainings they made an announcement that anyone "with psychological problems should not apply to the FTTA", suggesting that my sister in law was not the only person to develop mental illness during the training. The irony was my sister-in law probably along with many others was perfectly healthy before going into the training. She was a normal happy and joyful person who loved Jesus. After she left, she became a totally different person and the joy and happiness left her completely and she was later diagnosed with schizophrenia (had to be hospitalized and given life-long medication).

To me, the fact that they would even acknowledge this (in a biannual training, no less) is a very big red flag.

We all know how reserved the culture in the Recovery can be. We also know how tight-lipped the leadership can be. How many such cases must it have taken before they would make such a public announcement?

How many people have gone from the Full-Time Training to psychiatrists? How many people have left the Full-Time Training early in a state of mental exhaustion? How many people have left the Full-Time Training early due to physical symptoms which may have been brought on by prolonged/chronic stress?

Very serious stuff, folks.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Another issue is that the LC takes a "cookie cutter" approach to practices. There is the strong belief that what works for one person works for everyone. This causes more problems that most in the LC realize. The idea that all college graduates should attend the FTTA regardless of individual situations or needs is a prime example of that. I think this type of mentality sets some up for failure or in some cases, mental breakdowns.

Many offer cookie-cutter approaches to healing, not just in the LC, for dealing with those suffering psychological problems. Is easier, and the problem is dismissed. Often it comes the the form of, only God, Jesus, and the Bible, can heal them. All they, we, need, in this line of thinking is, more Jesus. But more Jesus, in the LC environment, just adds to the cognitive dissonance, and to more psychological stress. I know a brother that that is precisely what happened to him, in Anaheim, no less. It drove him out of his mind.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I remember in one of the trainings I went to a number of years ago, the brother speaking (probably Ron) was warning us against reading Jessie Penn-Lewis' writings. I think it was either the "Spiritual Warfare" or "War on the Saints" book that was mentioned in particular. I thought it was ironic because I was already aware that both Nee and Lee were influenced by her.

At any rate, it has always bothered me that no one in the LC ever gives things like this a little bit of thought. If Nee was influenced by Jessie Penn-Lewis' writings, yet we are being warned against reading her writings, what does that imply?

"Institutionally speaking, the Shanghai Assembly was the de facto headquarters of the Little Flock Movement in China. The authority was concentrated in the hands of "God's apostles" (Shen de sheetu), namely Watchman Nee and his female co-workers, Li Yuanru, Wang Peizhen, and Yu Chenghua, who were famous evangelists before joining the Little Flock. The Home of Deacons (zhishi zhijia) at Guling in Fuzhou was the national training center of Little Flock leaders while the Gospel Bookstore (fuyin shufang) in Shanghai published Christian pamphlets. There were many such business enterprises run by Watchman Nee in support of the Little Flock activities."

In addition to running numerous business enterprises, Nee was evidently a large land-holder, as well. By his late 20s, Nee was one of the foremost Christian apologists in China, free to do what he wanted. He was a rock star, who could think, do, or say whatever he wanted.

In the article covers interpenetration of the Communists and the Little Flock operatives, after WWII. The narrative is very different from what we heard. The Little Flock had true power - political, social, economic. Many government leaders were Little Flock members, functioning as moles. And vice-versa. Why do you think there was a lag between Communists taking over in 1949, and Nee's arrest in 1952, and then four years between his arrest and eventual trial? Because the two heavy-weights were sorting it out. Eventually in 1956 the communists attacked the Little Flock leadership and broke its power completely.

But before 1956, the LF had a lot of secular power in China. It's a different reality than what we were fed. Watchman Nee and the Little Flock Movement in Maoist China, by Joseph Tse-Hei Lee. Church History; 2005;74(1)

Hello,

I stumbled on this article from https://www.thepathoftruth.com/false...gglesworth.htm.

It’s addressing two people Nee and Wigglesworth (never heard of this guy), so some quotes might be confusing.

Couple of interesting takes on Nee. I will quote couple of paragraphs here from the article.

“Here are two spiritual giants of human willpower, attempting to be Christian by great works and sacrifices that come to naught.”

“………Nee taught that we have to be ever sensitive to the ‘revealing’ of the Spirit’s will in our spirit and move from that.”

That is an expression of pure abominable self-righteousness. “See how sensitive I am to the Spirit,” he proclaims. The man was a peacock in perpetual fanning. And saints know they’re looking at the backside.

Yes, Nee suffered great persecution; he was imprisoned; I understand he even had his tongue cut out by the authorities because he refused to stop “witnessing” and “preaching the Gospel,” but not because he was a true witness of the Lord Jesus Christ. He bore witness by his own will and in his own power. He wasn’t working with Jesus as Jesus worked with the Father.”

“…….Nee spoke some truth, but he operated from his carnal intellect and human will. That’s why his teachings are dead rather than life-giving. “Knowledge puffs up, but love edifies” (1 Corinthians 8:1 MKJV).

What’s the difference between our doctrinal teachings and others’ like Nee? Besides some specifics (not negligible ones, either) we call for repentance and the taking up of the cross by faith, according to God’s definition of those things. Only He can show a person this difference.

Here’s an example exposing Nee in the unrepentance of his uncrucified life. The following was sent to us by someone quoting Nee from his book, Spiritual Reality or Obsession, impressed by his spirituality:

“If we refuse to accept the discipline of the Holy Spirit, we deny to HIM the opportunity to lead us into spiritual reality.

We need once again to consecrate ourselves more completely and more thoroughly so as to give the Spirit of the LORD a chance to perfect HIS work and to guide us into spiritual reality.”

Are we the ones giving God a chance, or is He the One perfecting whom He chooses? Hands down, it’s the latter.

“You did not choose Me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, so that whatever you may ask the Father in My Name He may give to you” (John 15:16 EMTV).

“Spiritual reality is trueness. It is the truth which sets us free. Oftentimes a Christian fails to touch trueness and falls into falsehood instead. He is deceived and bound by falsehood. He does not clearly see the true character of a thing; yet he considers himself clear. What he thinks and does is wrong, but reckons himself to be most right. Such a condition we call ‘obsession.’”

Nee was describing himself. He was obsessed with his own righteousness and religiosity. He dwelt in the philosophy of his mind and drove himself to live accordingly by his willpower. It was his work. But those who believe the Lord Jesus Christ dwell in Him, and He in them does the work. They don’t try to carry the impossible weight of being their own saviors, which is what Nee was truly preaching and doing.”

IDK, but some of these points are pretty spot on, and for those of us who read some of his books and been told of many things that were “kind of true”, or “a bit changed by the LSM to sound more dramatic”. about who Nee really was.

……………………………………

P.S

Also, this book mentioned in this thread should have exposed Nee for who he truly was, but the people of the local church have hid it, and I have been told never to read this book. I found this post to be interesting and reminded me of something that happened in my own life.

We all know how reserved the culture in the Recovery can be. We also know how tight-lipped the leadership can be. How many such cases must it have taken before they would make such a public announcement?

How many people have gone from the Full-Time Training to psychiatrists? How many people have left the Full-Time Training early in a state of mental exhaustion? How many people have left the Full-Time Training early due to physical symptoms which may have been brought on by prolonged/chronic stress?

Very serious stuff, folks.

I did a few jobs for our state highway patrol academy in years past. What stood out the most from those days, is the way the lieutenants treat the cadets on daily bases. It was as if they are worst than dirt on the side of the road. Those cadets were told to give salutes to everyone on the property regardless of rank and as long as one is not in cadet uniform. I would get constant “good morning Sir, good afternoon Sir, with almost a full military salute” as they would be walking by. I saw them take a baton from one of the cadets during lunch, and toss it across the cafeteria and have him go fetch it like a dog, only to be told that it was his fault that it was dropped on the floor.

I got to talk to one of these lieutenants once, and asked him “why do you treat these young men this way?”, and he answered, “the goal of these exercises is to completely break an individual to nothing, make him feel like he is lower than a everything that exist, psychologically, emotionally, and physically, so that after that portion is complete, I can mold out of them anything I wish!”

That sounded as something I have heard from some FTTA trainees over the years. Unfortunately, the lieutenants of the local church are very good at breaking people to nothing, it’s the second part that they have zero clue about. By the way, I have never found any scriptural bases for these kind of trainings or to what they do to these young men and women in there. No wonder that some that make it through it, look, sound, act, speak, even have the same gestures as Witness Lee did. So much for pointing people to God, and following Jesus Christ as they claim to do!

[Trapped]

Unregistered,

Great observations. I think I have mentioned a couple times on the forum that a frequent comment from many trainees, after graduating after two years in the FTT and coming back to their locality, was, "I don't know how to be".

They really had been broken down. A schedule full of deadlines throughout the day, running them all over here and there, punishments for any infraction, whether a missed deadline, whether a hair on their bed, whether a wrinkle in their sheets, whether talking past curfew, whether wearing a piece of red clothing, etc.... they were punished with assignments to read the very ministry that was supposed to be nourishing to them, some of them reaching the end of their term with a large backlog of punishments. Some of them received letters in their cubbies indicating that their infraction meant that they had a divided heart or were not absolute for the Lord. Stories of leading brothers raiding sisters kitchens for things like coffee (IIRC), etc...

And any failure in this environment is heightened to the extreme because they feel like they are a failure before God. Not loving God enough, not living up to His expectations, never good enough, ever.

This is not a place where people's children go to get built up.

Too many are as you describe - they leave the FTT with mental problems or health problems they did not have before. There is a known percentage of people in the training on antidepressants or medications of that nature....known because the doctor brothers and sisters prescribe them, rather than lobby to have changes made for the sake of the trainees instead.

On the flipside, I know cell phones did not used to be allowed, and now they are. I also think they extended the allowed sleep time by 30 minutes due to so many reports of exhaustion. So no, they are not total monsters, but ...... their claim that this is the "best place for a young man in God's plan" or whatever is a complete lie.

Trapped

Originally Posted by Trapped

Unregistered,

Great observations. I think I have mentioned a couple times on the forum that a frequent comment from many trainees, after graduating after two years in the FTT and coming back to their locality, was, "I don't know how to be".

They really had been broken down. A schedule full of deadlines throughout the day, running them all over here and there, punishments for any infraction, whether a missed deadline, whether a hair on their bed, whether a wrinkle in their sheets, whether talking past curfew, whether wearing a piece of red clothing, etc.... they were punished with assignments to read the very ministry that was supposed to be nourishing to them, some of them reaching the end of their term with a large backlog of punishments. Some of them received letters in their cubbies indicating that their infraction meant that they had a divided heart or were not absolute for the Lord. Stories of leading brothers raiding sisters kitchens for things like coffee (IIRC), etc...

And any failure in this environment is heightened to the extreme because they feel like they are a failure before God. Not loving God enough, not living up to His expectations, never good enough, ever.

This is not a place where people's children go to get built up.

Too many are as you describe - they leave the FTT with mental problems or health problems they did not have before. There is a known percentage of people in the training on antidepressants or medications of that nature....known because the doctor brothers and sisters prescribe them, rather than lobby to have changes made for the sake of the trainees instead.

On the flipside, I know cell phones did not used to be allowed, and now they are. I also think they extended the allowed sleep time by 30 minutes due to so many reports of exhaustion. So no, they are not total monsters, but ...... their claim that this is the "best place for a young man in God's plan" or whatever is a complete lie.

Trapped

No pun intended, I don’t believe that anyone with a sound mind would send their child to FTT, if they have any hope and faith in God. It’s only a person who has not only lost his way, but is willing to sacrifice their child on the altar of these spiritual exhibitionist like Lee and Nee, and the current crop of their contaminated fruit. Extravagant obsession with self righteousness, and untamed desire to redo or repeat the completed work of Christ, will lead to unequivocally dire tragedy, anguish and despair.

These trainings are nothing more than a set of exorcises of self will, derived from communist erudition, and some aspects that were concocted by Ignatius of Loyola, in his spiritual exercises manifesto. In its essence, they are opposed to God or any spiritual perspicacity, meant to raise religious coldhearted brutes, who for the sake of their wild unattainable maxims, would be willing to destroy even themselves. Martyrdom is the ultimate triumph, human pedestal is an alternative conquest!

We’ve seen both in the local church, nether of which brought any life or even a speck of veridical reality as was promised. Generations were and are being wrecked, without any or very little fighting back. People are petrified to stand up, forfeit everything if necessary, to gain the ultimate prize of freedom, liberty, which can only be received by trusting in what already has been accomplished for everyone! Do it yourself kits, are more attractive and more fulfilling on the outside, which is the only thing that’s offered by the local church!

May God shine His light into this dark abyss, so that those that are truly seeking Him, will find redemption, but those that are fretful of the light will hightail like cowardly hyenas who prefer darkness to get their coveted prey!