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Old 12-06-2017, 03:45 PM   #1
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Default "God died on the cross."

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Originally Posted by aron View Post
It says, "You are gods, but you will die like men". Jesus knew the rest of the verse, as did his audience. Lee didn't, or ignored it, hoping his audience was ignorant. Evangelical tries to cover it & says that God takes away the authority of these 'gods' and they die like men. What kinds of gods are those?
And the same will happen if you managed to become deified.

Personality, and I don't know if it's universally true, of course, but I think deification is all in the head. It's a person that has a god complex ... like Lee.
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Old 12-08-2017, 03:04 PM   #2
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Default Re: God in life and nature... oh really?

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I hate to break this to you Evan but there' s a very simple reason people can't accept the "teaching about man becoming god." Gods are immortal. Men aren't.

If you look at the long list of guys who taught that men were becoming gods including Athanasius, Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, Calvin, Jonathan Edwards and Witness Lee, you might notice that none of them are around. That's because they all died.

That's pretty powerful evidence that deification is bunkum. No matter how much you like the idea that "men become gods" the evidence against the idea is incontrovertible.
I hate to butt in, but if gods can't die wouldn't that mean that Jesus wasn't God? Just wondering.
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Old 12-08-2017, 08:04 PM   #3
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Default Re: God in life and nature... oh really?

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I hate to butt in, but if gods can't die wouldn't that mean that Jesus wasn't God? Just wondering.
awareness, according to you, 'g'ods can't died, ... Jesus wasn't 'G'od?

You already made the distinction that Jesus 'G'od is not the same as 'g'ods.
WL/LSM make similar distinction. (Ow.... English language ... G, g. Hope someone can explain whether there is 'G' and 'g' difference in original script.)

-
Jesus is God, the creator.
gods are created beings ... (angels also are created beings, also call sons of God)

gods cannot died, but God can say to them 'you will died like men' ... and they will. God can also allocate where gods go ... hell, or eternal darkness, or bottomless pit ....

Jesus God can incarnate, lived on earth in flesh and blood, can die on the cross, water and blood flowed out of him, the flesh and bone body died, and buried for three days and three nights, and resurrected to a glorious body, (He raised himself up, also said the Father raised Him up, - I cannot understand. But it was so)

Just a little thought. I also have wonderings ... we know in part ...
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Old 12-08-2017, 09:04 PM   #4
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Default Re: God in life and nature... oh really?

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Originally Posted by least View Post
awareness, according to you, 'g'ods can't died, ... Jesus wasn't 'G'od?

You already made the distinction that Jesus 'G'od is not the same as 'g'ods.
WL/LSM make similar distinction. (Ow.... English language ... G, g. Hope someone can explain whether there is 'G' and 'g' difference in original script.)

-
Jesus is God, the creator.
gods are created beings ... (angels also are created beings, also call sons of God)

gods cannot died, but God can say to them 'you will died like men' ... and they will. God can also allocate where gods go ... hell, or eternal darkness, or bottomless pit ....

Jesus God can incarnate, lived on earth in flesh and blood, can die on the cross, water and blood flowed out of him, the flesh and bone body died, and buried for three days and three nights, and resurrected to a glorious body, (He raised himself up, also said the Father raised Him up, - I cannot understand. But it was so)

Just a little thought. I also have wonderings ... we know in part ...
-
Good one *least*. You got me wondering about the big "G" and little "g" in the Greek manuscripts. Does the "original" Greek make such a distinction?

Well first off, the NT Koine Greek doesn't use the word God/god(s) at all. The Greek word for God is Theos. And there is no use of a big "T" and little a "t" to make a distinction between god or gods. In fact, given the original Greek text is just run-on words and sentences, with no spaces or punctuation whatsoever, you'd have to be trained in Koine Greek to even find the word theos in the jumbled run-on text.

Quote:
Originally Posted by least
awareness, according to you, 'g'ods can't died, ... Jesus wasn't 'G'od?
No, the premise is that god(s) can't die. That would mean that Jesus wasn't God, because he died.

But the premise is wrong. 2000 years ago the promised land was populated with more than 90% pagans. And pagan gods could die. So deicide, or dying gods, were therefore commonly known by most everyone in those days.

Therefore gods were commonly known to die ... and by-the-way, even some of them, before Jesus, resurrected, or came back to life.

So Evangelical gets this one. It is possible to be deified and still die.

Still, my premise is that, deification is not possible, for us mere mortals. Biblically, in all history there's been only one human in the flesh that's been deified : Jesus.
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Old 12-08-2017, 09:14 PM   #5
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Default Re: God in life and nature... oh really?

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I can’t hang with this discussion.
When you discard faith and scripture along with LSM, all kinds of crazy things can happen.
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Old 12-08-2017, 09:41 PM   #6
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in all history there's been only one human in the flesh that's been deified : Jesus.
Jesus deified?

He was born God in the flesh. Need he be deified?

I won't go on this wondering.
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Old 12-09-2017, 07:42 AM   #7
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When you discard faith and scripture along with LSM, all kinds of crazy things can happen.
As if any of that stops crazy things.
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Old 12-09-2017, 07:43 AM   #8
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Default Re: God in life and nature... oh really?

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Originally Posted by least View Post
Jesus deified?

He was born God in the flesh. Need he be deified?

I won't go on this wondering.
-
But you get my point, right *least*?
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Old 12-09-2017, 08:10 AM   #9
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Default Re: God in life and nature... oh really?

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As if any of that stops crazy things.
Holding faith, scripture, and a good conscience stops all kinds of crazy things.

Living here in crazy town I would know such things!
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Old 12-09-2017, 08:14 AM   #10
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Default Re: God in life and nature... oh really?

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Originally Posted by awareness View Post
... in all history there's been only one human in the flesh that's been deified : Jesus.
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Originally Posted by least View Post
Jesus deified? He was born God in the flesh. Need he be deified?
I for one disagree with the heresy that Jesus was not born of the virgin Mary and that He was deified at His baptism.
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Old 12-09-2017, 08:19 AM   #11
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Default Re: God in life and nature... oh really?

Your point is off topic Harold. I'm sure everyone is grateful to you for letting us know that the many of the Greek manuscripts did not have spaces or punctuations. How have we ever gone on with our lives without knowing this? And anyone who knows just a little about history knows that all sorts of people have claimed to be divine, a god or the son of god, etc, and that some of their followers claimed that they were resurrected. But the problem is is that they were NOT the incarnate Son of the living God and they were NOT resurrected. Jesus Christ WAS the incarnate Son of the living God and he WAS resurrected. These facts are not up for negotiation on the main forum board.

Back on topic please.

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Old 12-09-2017, 11:03 PM   #12
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Default Re: God in life and nature... oh really?

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Originally Posted by zeek View Post
The Gospel of John addresses the issue explicitly. There Jesus explains that no one had the power to take his life; but, he had the power both to lay his life down and to take it up again.

So, whereas you characterized immortality negatively as the inability to die, the Gospel of John construes it positively in the case of Jesus Christ as power over both life and death.
Thanks for your reply zeek.

Well then we all can be gods. Cuz according to Paul we die but resurrect ; the resurrection of Jesus being the first fruits.

So again, it goes to Evangelical : divination - deification - is possible ... depending on your diet.

Question : Is being Blended, as in Blended Brothers, a sign of deification, or is it just Leeification?
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Old 12-10-2017, 06:26 AM   #13
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Default Re: God in life and nature... oh really?

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I hate to break this to you Evan but there' s a very simple reason people can't accept the "teaching about man becoming god." Gods are immortal. Men aren't.

If you look at the long list of guys who taught that men were becoming gods including Athanasius, Augustine, Aquinas, Luther, Calvin, Jonathan Edwards and Witness Lee, you might notice that none of them are around. That's because they all died.

That's pretty powerful evidence that deification is bunkum. No matter how much you like the idea that "men become gods" the evidence against the idea is incontrovertible.
Then they dont know the bible :

1 Cor 15
For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
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Old 12-10-2017, 06:32 AM   #14
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Gods can die. Proof:Jesus Christ. God died on the cross. This is so simple, yet not many get it.
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Old 12-10-2017, 07:55 AM   #15
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Default Re: God in life and nature... oh really?

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Thanks for your reply zeek.

Well then we all can be gods. Cuz according to Paul we die but resurrect ; the resurrection of Jesus being the first fruits.

So again, it goes to Evangelical : divination - deification - is possible ... depending on your diet.

Question : Is being Blended, as in Blended Brothers, a sign of deification, or is it just Leeification?

Yes and no. Or rather, no and yes. "No" because in ourselves, as humans, it is empirically evident that we do not have the power to "take up" life again once we lose it. To be human is to be mortal.

But "Yes" according to, the Gospel of John which claims that Jesus has resurrection power [John 10:18] and that Jesus said “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live." [John 11:25] So, according to John, we have resurrection only in Jesus Christ by faith.

If gods are immortal and resurrection is a kind of immortality, then, in ourselves we are not gods because we do not have the power to resurrect ourselves. However, by faith in Christ we have resurrection power according to John. So, according to John we can be considered gods in this sense only in Christ by faith.
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Old 12-10-2017, 08:50 AM   #16
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Default Re: God in life and nature... oh really?

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Gods can die. Proof:Jesus Christ. God died on the cross. This is so simple, yet not many get it.
And I had you winning this argument. Then you go and bring up something Untohim doesn't allow discussion of on the open 'evangelical' forum.

I'll just quote : "God died on the cross."

So, like the good boy that I am ... off to Alternative Views ... to start THAT new thread.
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Old 12-10-2017, 08:54 AM   #17
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Default "God died on the cross."

On the thread "Re: God in life and nature... oh really?" on the evangelical side of this forum, brother Evangelical stated : "God died on the cross."

That's quite a statement. Does the Bible really say that? Is that even possible?
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Old 12-10-2017, 10:07 AM   #18
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Default Re: "God died on the cross."

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On the thread "Re: God in life and nature... oh really?" on the evangelical side of this forum, brother Evangelical stated : "God died on the cross."

That's quite a statement. Does the Bible really say that? Is that even possible?
I don't think the scripture says specifically, "God died on the cross." In the early part of Acts, the Apostles' message was "this man, Jesus the Nazarene, the Holy and Righteous One, His servant Jesus, the Author of Life, whom you killed, whom God raised up." (2.23, 3.13-15, 5.30, 7.52) In other places, "Christ died for our sins, acc. to the scripture."

To say this we must infer from verses like Phil 2.5-11, Acts 20.28, etc.

Once we actually say "God died" then we have opened the door to unnecessary controversy. That discussion is similar to saying "Jesus is God, hence Mary must be the mother of God."

This is why some Christians have used the expression, "God has passed thru death in Jesus," based on the Lord's own words, "I have the power to lay down my life, and to take it up again." (Acts 10)
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Old 12-10-2017, 10:11 AM   #19
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Default Re: God in life and nature... oh really?

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Gods can die. Proof:Jesus Christ. God died on the cross. This is so simple, yet not many get it.

Where is that verse, "God died?"

Not many "get it" because Bible don't say it.
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Old 12-10-2017, 10:18 AM   #20
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Default Re: "God died on the cross."

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On the thread "Re: God in life and nature... oh really?" on the evangelical side of this forum, brother Evangelical stated : "God died on the cross."

That's quite a statement. Does the Bible really say that? Is that even possible?
“With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” Matthew 19:26
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Old 12-10-2017, 12:01 PM   #21
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Default Re: God in life and nature... oh really?

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Gods can die. Proof:Jesus Christ. God died on the cross. This is so simple, yet not many get it.
I thought death refers to something mortal, temporal. Whereas God by definition is eternal, immortal.

Since Jesus had both statuses prior to his resurrection and ascension He did die. Since Jesus is one with the triune God we can now say that God has the experience of death. But that doesn't mean that the immortal God dies, but rather that mortal man became part of the Triune God in the Lord's ascension.

The verse reference that you are referring to is that experience of Jesus on the cross when God "forsook Him".

Witness Lee, as was his practice, loved to take individual verses to their logical extreme in order to differentiate himself from the more cautious theologians. He took Acts 20:28 where Paul says that "God purchased the church with His own blood" and concluded that the immortal, eternal God who is Spirit has human blood and therefore on the cross God died.

I guess it never occurred to him there was a much more reasonable conclusion, which is that the Blood of Jesus is now the Blood of God.

Jesus Christ's death on the cross was a peace offering to God. That means that He gave His body and blood to God on the cross as an offering. So obviously, that blood is now God's. If the blood had been God's prior to the offering then what kind of offering would that have been?

Worthy art thou to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and didst purchase unto God with thy blood men of every tribe, and tongue, and people, and nation, (Rev 5:9)

Compare the verse in Acts with this verse. If you purchase something "unto God" then you are acting on behalf of God to buy something. Jesus redeemed us with His blood but He did this on behalf of God. Hence it is "the church of God". Again, this is because when Jesus offered the blood to God on the cross it became God's, and He used it to buy the church.

In conclusion there is no scriptural basis to say that God died on the cross.
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Old 12-10-2017, 04:29 PM   #22
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Default Re: God in life and nature... oh really?

This is Christianity 101. If we believe that God became a man then surely whatever happens to God in the flesh is happening to God. Unless you believe that Jesus is not fully God?
Jesus is God.God experienced separation of the soul and body which is death. So God died. God knows what it is like to live and die.

Gotquestions agrees:
https://www.gotquestions.org/did-God-die.html

The Trinity and hypostatic union complicates things unnecessarily. It is correct to say God died on the cross just as we might say God became a man or God came down to us.

Anyway, the old hymn by Charles Wesley 'and can it be that I should gain' says God died. Chris Tomlins version replaces God with King.
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Old 12-10-2017, 04:43 PM   #23
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And I had you winning this argument. Then you go and bring up something Untohim doesn't allow discussion of on the open 'evangelical' forum. I'll just quote : "God died on the cross."
It really reveals who really believes Jesus is fully God and who doesn't. If Jesus is fully and truly God then whatever happened to God in the flesh..Emmaneul...happened to God.

This is what Christians believe. I personally don't take issue with the idea because I believe Jesus is God.

Just look at all the people disagreeing with me. It indicates they think Jesus is somehow lesser than God. Heirarchy in the Trinity is a heresy.

As long as we steer clear of heresy which says divinity died then we are fine.

And when we say God became a man this does not mean divinity became human.
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Old 12-10-2017, 05:12 PM   #24
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Default Re: "God died on the cross."

Luther said:



UNLESS GOD is on the balance and throws his weight as a counterbalance, we shall sink to the bottom of the scale. If it is not true that God died for us, but only a man died, we are lost. But if God's death and God lie dead in the opposite scale, then his side goes down and we go upward like a light or empty pan. But he could not have sat in the pan unless he became a man like us, so that it could be said: God dead, God's passion, God's blood, God's death.
Martin Luther, quoted in the Formula of Concord


Awareness you sent Luther to alt. Views
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Old 12-10-2017, 05:22 PM   #25
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Here is a quote by Luther...

UNLESS GOD is on the balance and throws his weight as a counterbalance, we shall sink to the bottom of the scale. If it is not true that God died for us, but only a man died, we are lost. But if God's death and God lie dead in the opposite scale, then his side goes down and we go upward like a light or empty pan. But he could not have sat in the pan unless he became a man like us, so that it could be said: God dead, God's passion, God's blood, God's death.
Martin Luther, quoted in the Formula of Concord

Fyi formula of concord is an authoritative Lutheran work and Awareness sends it to alternative views. LOL.
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Old 12-10-2017, 05:46 PM   #26
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Default Re: God in life and nature... oh really?

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This is Christianity 101. If we believe that God became a man then surely whatever happens to God in the flesh is happening to God. Unless you believe that Jesus is not fully God?
You are ducking and dodging the question. Ohio asked you for a verse reference, instead you give us this logical explanation, which is exactly what I said WL does, reductio ad absurdem.

Was the blood of Jesus that was poured out on the cross the blood of God?

If all you are saying is that since Jesus is God, and He experienced death, then it is fair to say God experienced death. I have already said this much is true.

That is not the question. The question is did "God" die on the cross based on the interpretation that it was "God's" blood?

Because if you say yes then how do you explain Jesus asking "My God why have you forsaken me?"

How could God judge Jesus flesh with all of man's sins if it was in fact His flesh?

How could Jesus death be a peace offering to God for man's sins if in fact it was God's body and blood that was being offered?

You have simplified "the word became flesh" to "God became man". The process of God becoming man was not completed at the incarnation but at the ascension. Jesus was the forerunner, the first man to enter into the Godhead so that there would be a place for us as well. All of this took place at the ascension, after His crucifixion.

Just as we "partake of the divine nature" God partook of our human nature so that through death He could render powerless the devil. (Heb 2:14). That proves that God is not able to die.

Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, Heb 2:14

Bible 101 -- God is the great I am. I am that I am.

But according to Evangelical and WL God died and wasn't.
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Old 12-10-2017, 06:38 PM   #27
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Default Re: "God died on the cross."

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I don't think the scripture says specifically, "God died on the cross." In the early part of Acts, the Apostles' message was "this man, Jesus the Nazarene, the Holy and Righteous One, His servant Jesus, the Author of Life, whom you killed, whom God raised up." (2.23, 3.13-15, 5.30, 7.52) In other places, "Christ died for our sins, acc. to the scripture."

To say this we must infer from verses like Phil 2.5-11, Acts 20.28, etc.

Once we actually say "God died" then we have opened the door to unnecessary controversy. That discussion is similar to saying "Jesus is God, hence Mary must be the mother of God."

This is why some Christians have used the expression, "God has passed thru death in Jesus," based on the Lord's own words, "I have the power to lay down my life, and to take it up again." (Acts 10)
Good response bro Ohio.

Plus, if God died on the cross, who was Jesus praying to at Gethsemane? Who was he asking to, "let this cup pass from me?"

Surely he wasn't praying to himself.
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Old 12-10-2017, 07:56 PM   #28
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Default Re: God in life and nature... oh really?

I am technically correct because natures don't die on crosses but Persons. Saying Gods human nature died on the cross is incorrect. This is why Luther said God died. Saying only a man or a half-god died on the cross is unacceptable.

Giving a bible verse does not help because the problem is your interpretation.

Somehow Luther and Wesley and others were able to discern this truth from the bible. What did they have that you don't?

I don't believe divinity can cease to exist but consider the quote I gave from Luther. It's common sense really.
If God did not die for us then only a man died and we are lost. Now we don't have to understand how God did it for it to be true but it was God on that cross and not just a man.

God came down from heaven to die for us on the cross. Because He was God, death was powerless over Him.

That's Christianity 101. Anything less is really unbelief that Jesus was fully God.

The correct answer to 'who died on the cross' is God.

This website explains why. It is Catholic but I think explains well.

http://www.thecatholictreasurechest.com/who.htm

As Charles Wesley wrote in his famous hymn "how can it be"
"The Immortal dies".

Immortality died for mortality. That's Christianity at its most basic. Simple but no less truthful.
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Old 12-10-2017, 08:58 PM   #29
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Luther said:



UNLESS GOD is on the balance and throws his weight as a counterbalance, we shall sink to the bottom of the scale. If it is not true that God died for us, but only a man died, we are lost. But if God's death and God lie dead in the opposite scale, then his side goes down and we go upward like a light or empty pan. But he could not have sat in the pan unless he became a man like us, so that it could be said: God dead, God's passion, God's blood, God's death.
Martin Luther, quoted in the Formula of Concord


Awareness you sent Luther to alt. Views
. LOL.
Oh no!!! Luther must be rolling over in his grave. I understand where Luther is coming from, but his premise is wrong. God sent his son to die for the sins of the world. And the father Jesus prayed to was not the father that went to the cross ; "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

But I do understand that, without divine intervention -- incarnation for example - we humans don't have any hope. I just don't think it required the death of God the Father.

Good quote from Luther tho. Luther wrote a lot of things. He would even write home to mother about his turds.
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Old 12-10-2017, 09:04 PM   #30
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Good response bro Ohio.

Plus, if God died on the cross, who was Jesus praying to at Gethsemane? Who was he asking to, "let this cup pass from me?"

Surely he wasn't praying to himself.
Apparently you never heard of the Trinity. According to a trinitarian conception, God the Son was praying to God the Father via God the Spirit. Jesus talks about his relationship to Father and the Spirit quite a bit in the Gospel of John. Maybe those JWs who visit you have wormed you with anti-trinitarian amnesia.
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Old 12-11-2017, 02:38 AM   #31
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If God did not die for us then only a man died and we are lost. Now we don't have to understand how God did it for it to be true but it was God on that cross and not just a man.

God came down from heaven to die for us on the cross. Because He was God, death was powerless over Him.
There's two issues here in Christianity 101. You have confused them.

As a sinless Man, Jesus shed His blood for our sins. His sacrifice was perfectly acceptable to God, delivering us from the curse of the law.

In resurrection, He became eternal life to all those who believe, and the hope of our own resurrection unto life.
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Old 12-11-2017, 04:22 AM   #32
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Giving a bible verse does not help because the problem is your interpretation.
So you have concluded that God died based on nothing. No Bible verse. Using this process you can conclude anything. What a waste of time.
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Old 12-11-2017, 07:47 AM   #33
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So you have concluded that God died based on nothing. No Bible verse. Using this process you can conclude anything. What a waste of time.
Yeah but ... ZNP ... BruLee said so.
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Old 12-11-2017, 08:18 AM   #34
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Oh no!!! Luther must be rolling over in his grave. I understand where Luther is coming from, but his premise is wrong. God sent his son to die for the sins of the world. And the father Jesus prayed to was not the father that went to the cross ; "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

But I do understand that, without divine intervention -- incarnation for example - we humans don't have any hope. I just don't think it required the death of God the Father.

Good quote from Luther tho. Luther wrote a lot of things. He would even write home to mother about his turds.
Who said anything about the Father going to the cross except you?
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Old 12-11-2017, 08:51 AM   #35
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Yeah but ... ZNP ... BruLee said so.
The basic rule is that "no scripture is of its own interpretation". We can provide 10 verses supporting the fact that Jesus' death was an offering to God, hence His blood is God's blood.

We can also provide 10 verses supporting the fact that Jesus Christ bringing humanity into the Godhead was a process that involved ascension.

But this is typical of WL and his ilk, they make up doctrines based on wild inferences from a single verse. They do this when they say "God died", they do this with "the ground of the church" they do this in saying WN and WL were the MOTA.
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Old 12-11-2017, 09:16 AM   #36
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Who said anything about the Father going to the cross except you?
Oh yeah, that's right. God the Father didn't die on the cross, and God the Holy Spirit didn't die on the cross, but God the son died on the cross.
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Old 12-11-2017, 09:46 AM   #37
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Who said anything about the Father going to the cross except you?
zeek has hit the nail on the head. This discussion (on both sides of the forum) has resorted to using "God" in a generic sense, and by it has turned the difficult issue of the trinity into a kind of "God stew" in which God is simply God and that is all there is to it.

In that view, either only the human (the man) Jesus died, or God (the whole thing — Father, Son, and Spirit) died. But within the Trinitarian view, God is thee and one in a way that neither separates totally, nor is simply a singular (my poor attempt at restating Athanasius). It still doesn't "define" it clearly, rather establishes something that we cannot fully understand. Something that remains a mystery. But it does provide a way for Jesus Christ to die without stating that God (the One) died. Or that the Father or Spirit died.
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Old 12-11-2017, 12:38 PM   #38
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I am technically correct because natures don't die on crosses but Persons. Saying Gods human nature died on the cross is incorrect. This is why Luther said God died. Saying only a man or a half-god died on the cross is unacceptable.
What's with this Luther presentation? Is Luther an authority of some kind? Do you, for example, think of him as the first Minister of the Age, of his time, so therefore authoritative?

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Originally Posted by Evan
Giving a bible verse does not help because the problem is your interpretation.
That's a good one ... a keeper in fact. So who's interpretation is authoritative?

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Originally Posted by Evan
I don't believe divinity can cease to exist but consider the quote I gave from Luther. It's common sense really.
If God did not die for us then only a man died and we are lost. Now we don't have to understand how God did it for it to be true but it was God on that cross and not just a man.
As I've stated, Biblically God the Father did not die on the cross : God the Spirit did not die on the cross ; But God the Son did.

Quote:
God came down from heaven to die for us on the cross. Because He was God, death was powerless over Him.[
Yes as Jesus stated, he had the power the lay his life down, and the power to raise it up. That was not God the Father, or God the Spirit. That was God the Son.

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Originally Posted by Evan
The correct answer to 'who died on the cross' is God.
Again, the correct answer is, God the Son died on the cross.
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Old 12-11-2017, 01:45 PM   #39
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Somehow Luther and Wesley and others were able to discern this truth from the bible. What did they have that you don't?
"9 But we behold him who hath been made a little lower than the angels, even Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God he should taste of death for every man."

I guess they had their opinion which they put on par with the Bible, I don't put my opinion on par with the Bible, so I don't have that. When I read this verse in Hebrews it tells me that Jesus was made a little lower than the angels so that He could suffer death. I cannot find a verse anywhere that says "God died" or even implies that God died. On the contrary I find many verses that say Jesus had to become a mortal man so that He could die.

The only verse I have found that WL used to peddle this teaching was that God bought the church with "His blood". This in turn led to the erroneous conclusion that it was God's blood when it was shed. I think the Bible has a phenomenal amount of verse references supporting the idea that this death was an offering to God and that after Jesus offered Himself the blood was then God's.

As for Luther, Wesley, and WL they all agree that Jesus death on the cross was a peace offering. Which is where we can all agree.
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Old 12-11-2017, 08:09 PM   #40
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So, what are you saying? That Jesus was not God when he died? That he became God when he ascended? Based on this post plus several of your previous posts it seems like it. Although you use the term "incarnation", it isn't clear what you mean by it if Jesus didn't become God until he ascended.
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Old 12-11-2017, 08:14 PM   #41
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Who said anything about the Father going to the cross except you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW
zeek has hit the nail on the head. This discussion (on both sides of the forum) has resorted to using "God" in a generic sense, and by it has turned the difficult issue of the trinity into a kind of "God stew" in which God is simply God and that is all there is to it.

In that view, either only the human (the man) Jesus died, or God (the whole thing — Father, Son, and Spirit) died. But within the Trinitarian view, God is thee and one in a way that neither separates totally, nor is simply a singular (my poor attempt at restating Athanasius). It still doesn't "define" it clearly, rather establishes something that we cannot fully understand. Something that remains a mystery. But it does provide a way for Jesus Christ to die without stating that God (the One) died. Or that the Father or Spirit died.
I'm glad you guys picked up on my point. I've become a broken record, repeating over and over again, that, if Jesus was God he was God the son. So God the son died on the cross, not God the ultimate God - The Father - that Jesus claimed to be following and speaking FOR. The record has him saying, 'if you've seen me, you've seen the father.' But, in spite of Witness Lee's crazy audacious claim, Jesus was NOT The Father.
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Old Yesterday, 04:23 AM   #42
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So, what are you saying? That Jesus was not God when he died? That he became God when he ascended? Based on this post plus several of your previous posts it seems like it. Although you use the term "incarnation", it isn't clear what you mean by it if Jesus didn't become God until he ascended.
No, I am agreeing that Jesus incarnation, human living, crucifixion, resurrection and ascension brought humanity into divinity.

You might remember the references to the "all inclusive processed triune God".

I can find lots of credible scriptural references to support each of these processes, both in the NT and the OT typology. Whereas the only reference in the NT I can find that the Son of God was crucified and shed His blood is from demons. In addition every time this doctrine was proposed in the NT Jesus corrected it saying He was "the Son of Man".

Therefore I am cognizant of the fact that the Triune God is a mystery. Since I begin with he assumption that I do not understand this mystery I refuse to step outside of what the Bible actually says. I guess this is where I and WL differ.

If you agree with WL that "God died" then who is to say that God was really God in the first place? If you argue that He didn't really die, it was in fact a kind of pretend death then you make the crucifixion a pretend death. You have no scriptural basis for making the first claim and therefore no defense against those who make either of these two claims. Likewise the argument that "The Son of God" died but not the Father or Spirit is simply another version of 3 Gods. You cannot make this claim and still worship "one God".

According to the NT when Rachel's kids died "they were no more". According to the NT not one jot or tittle of the word will pass away until all things be completed. If the word passed away who was holding the universe together? You turn the entire Bible into a lie, a pretense, a falsehood.

2 hath at the end of these days spoken unto us in his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, through whom also he made the worlds; 3 who being the effulgence of his glory, and the very image of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had made purification of sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; 4 having become by so much better than the angels, as he hath inherited a more excellent name than they.

The word "made purification of sins" just like a priest offering up a sacrifice. Jesus body was inhabited by this word which was spirit, the body though was the sacrifice, including the blood. This body was not worthy to be part of the Godhead until after the ascension.

9 But we behold him who hath been made a little lower than the angels, even Jesus, because of the suffering of death crowned with glory and honor, that by the grace of God he should taste of death for every man.
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Old Yesterday, 06:41 AM   #43
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I'm glad you guys picked up on my point. I've become a broken record, repeating over and over again, that, if Jesus was God he was God the son. So God the son died on the cross, not God the ultimate God - The Father - that Jesus claimed to be following and speaking FOR. The record has him saying, 'if you've seen me, you've seen the father.' But, in spite of Witness Lee's crazy audacious claim, Jesus was NOT The Father.
You are not the only one making this claim, all the demons did as well.
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Old Yesterday, 07:12 AM   #44
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I agree that we are discussing a great mystery which is past understanding. Consequently, at times we seem to come down on one side and at other times on another. With that in mind it makes sense not to castigate others because they seem to disagree with our opinion at the moment. They are perhaps just looking at a different facet of this mysterious gem.

Based on what you said about WL in previous posts I never would have guessed that you were agreeing with him concerning his "processed God" teaching. Since Evangelical appreciates WL teaching as well, he might be pleasantly surprised to learn that you agree with Lee on these points. There are apparent contradictions to that teaching as well which I won't bother you with at the moment.

I prefer to discuss this topic in Alternative Views where we don't have to worry as much about censure. We're have a related discussion on that forum.
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Old Yesterday, 07:51 AM   #45
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I'm glad you guys picked up on my point. I've become a broken record, repeating over and over again, that, if Jesus was God he was God the son. So God the son died on the cross, not God the ultimate God - The Father - that Jesus claimed to be following and speaking FOR. The record has him saying, 'if you've seen me, you've seen the father.' But, in spite of Witness Lee's crazy audacious claim, Jesus was NOT The Father.
Ah. So, apparently you're thinking of WL's claim that Jesus was the Father based on Isaiah 9:6:

Quote:
6 For unto us a Child is born,
Unto us a Son is given;
And the government will be upon His shoulder.
And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
This gets into the problem of titles. The Oxford scholar E.P. Sanders discusses this issue in his book The Historical Figure of Jesus

Quote:
We know substantially what Jesus thought of himself. We shall now ask whether or not he gave himself a title. The authors of the New Testament were interested in titles, and modern Christians have followed their lead. Few topics of research have generated as much scholarly publication. We all think that if we know the right word for something we understand it better, but in this particular case such a view is probably incorrect. The quest for the right title – the word that encapsulates Jesus’ view of himself, as well as the first disciples’ view – supposes that titles had fixed definitions and that we need only discover the definition of each. If title a meant x, and if Jesus used a of himself, we know that he thought of himself as being x. I think that the basic assumption, that titles had standard definitions, is in error. [pgs 239-240]
He goes on to show how it is an error with regard to the titles "messiah" or "Christ" and "Son of God". If it's a mistake for those titles, how much more for "Everlasting Father" which is never explicitly applied to Jesus in the New Testament.
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Old Yesterday, 08:33 AM   #46
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Based on what you said about WL in previous posts I never would have guessed that you were agreeing with him concerning his "processed God" teaching. Since Evangelical appreciates WL teaching as well, he might be pleasantly surprised to learn that you agree with Lee on these points. There are apparent contradictions to that teaching as well which I won't bother you with at the moment.
This view is a simplistic view based on my saying that WL is a "false prophet". I view the term "false prophet" differently from "phony prophet" or "flim flam man" which is how I think many view it.

Judas and Balaam were the examples of a false prophet. Both were genuine prophets of God that spoke the word of God clearly and accurately. However, both were motivated by money -- that is what made them false.

As a result they added leaven to the fine flour. WL's leaven was the concept of the Ground of the Church and MOTA -- both intended to give him a monopoly on the saints money. This particular topic about "God died" is irrelevant to this, however, I think he saw it as an opportunity to take a swipe at most theologians and put his teaching in contrast to theirs.

So unlike others who feel that there is a need to discredit every teaching of WL I don't.
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Old Yesterday, 08:45 AM   #47
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I'm glad you guys picked up on my point. I've become a broken record, repeating over and over again, that, if Jesus was God he was God the son. So God the son died on the cross, not God the ultimate God - The Father - that Jesus claimed to be following and speaking FOR. The record has him saying, 'if you've seen me, you've seen the father.' But, in spite of Witness Lee's crazy audacious claim, Jesus was NOT The Father.
I think it is more accurate to say that both of WL's claims cannot be true.

If Jesus was the Father then God did not die on the cross. If "the Son of God" died on the cross then Jesus was not the Father.

Personally I think WL was wrong on both counts. However, this point only proves he was wrong on one count.
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Old Yesterday, 08:59 AM   #48
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But, wait, Evangelical has shown other prominent theologians who taught that God died. So where's the swipe? Who is in the group of "most theologians" you refer to and what do they teach?
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Old Yesterday, 10:18 AM   #49
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I agree that we are discussing a great mystery which is past understanding. Consequently, at times we seem to come down on one side and at other times on another. With that in mind it makes sense not to castigate others because they seem to disagree with our opinion at the moment. They are perhaps just looking at a different facet of this mysterious gem.
Thanks for this one zeek. If only we all practiced what you are preaching the world would be a better place. But since none of us have the qualifications or power to moderate the world (and that God for that!) we'll have to settle for making this forum board as good as it can be. With that in mind, I have moved over a number of posts from the main forum page to Alt Views. I would especially encourage my friends ZNP and awareness to take advantage of the extra latitude provided for yu'all here on this forum board. Make the discussions as broad or narrow as you like. No need to worry about wondering off the reservation because there is no reservation here....it's the theological/philosophical wild, wild west! I have appointed a sheriff (Mr. Harold) but pay him no attention....he's pretty much like Barney Fife, except he doesn't even carry a bullet in his pocket.


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Old Yesterday, 11:06 AM   #50
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But, wait, Evangelical has shown other prominent theologians who taught that God died. So where's the swipe? Who is in the group of "most theologians" you refer to and what do they teach?
http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/blood_of_god.htm
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Old Yesterday, 11:42 AM   #51
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I don't see how your link disagrees with Evangelical's position that God died.
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Old Yesterday, 12:32 PM   #52
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I don't see how your link disagrees with Evangelical's position that God died.
Evangelical said that on the cross it was God's blood because "God died".

I said that Jesus humanity became part of God's after His ascension, hence His blood is God's blood, but that does not mean that God died.

That is the general theme of this article. It shows that many teachers referred to "God's blood" based on this verse but very few of them taught that "God died". It also points out all the problems that arise from that doctrine, primarily that there is no scriptural support for it other than this interpretation of these two words.

This is why I said that the "more cautious" Biblical scholars -- i.e. those that require numerous verses before coming up with an interpretation.
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Old Yesterday, 01:53 PM   #53
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Oh no!!! Luther must be rolling over in his grave. I understand where Luther is coming from, but his premise is wrong. God sent his son to die for the sins of the world. And the father Jesus prayed to was not the father that went to the cross ; "My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

But I do understand that, without divine intervention -- incarnation for example - we humans don't have any hope. I just don't think it required the death of God the Father.

Good quote from Luther tho. Luther wrote a lot of things. He would even write home to mother about his turds.

The formula of concord is an authoritative Lutheran statement of faith.
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Old Yesterday, 02:04 PM   #54
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What's with this Luther presentation? Is Luther an authority of some kind? Do you, for example, think of him as the first Minister of the Age, of his time, so therefore authoritative?


That's a good one ... a keeper in fact. So who's interpretation is authoritative?


As I've stated, Biblically God the Father did not die on the cross : God the Spirit did not die on the cross ; But God the Son did.


Yes as Jesus stated, he had the power the lay his life down, and the power to raise it up. That was not God the Father, or God the Spirit. That was God the Son.


Again, the correct answer is, God the Son died on the cross.
We believe Luther was a minister of the age I think everyone knows that by now.

Yes he is a kind of authority because without him we'd all be saying hail Mary's by now.

The formula of concord is not just Luthers opinion. He obviously had insight that some of you here don't.
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Old Yesterday, 02:56 PM   #55
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Default Re: "God died on the cross."

It might help if I post the full quote of Luther below, found here:

http://bookofconcord.org/sd-person.php.

The part I highlighted in bold should satisfy both those who say God did not die and those who say He did. I should add here that Lee had a way to put it that should be more conciliatory and that was to say the "God-man died".

The problem with saying "God dies" is that it implies that God's divine nature ceased. This is resolved by a caveat to say that in His nature, God cannot die.

However it is nonetheless correct to say "God died", according to Luther:


44] Dr. Luther says also in his book Of the Councils and the Church: We Christians must know that if God is not also in the balance, and gives the weight, we sink to the bottom with our scale. By this I mean: If it were not to be said [if these things were not true], God has died for us, but only a man, we would be lost. But if "God's death" and "God died" lie in the scale of the balance, then He sinks down, and we rise up as a light, empty scale. But indeed He can also rise again or leap out of the scale; yet He could not sit in the scale unless He became a man like us, so that it could be said: "God died," "God's passion," "God's blood," "God's death." For in His nature God cannot die; but now that God and man are united in one person, it is correctly called God's death, when the man dies who is one thing or one person with God. Thus far Luther.

I note that in discussions of God becoming man, many took issue with the idea of man becoming God, but few if any took issue with the first part of the quote "God became man". As such, few should take issue with saying "God died", as it is no worse than saying "God became man" (to a Jewish or Muslim mind, at least).

"God died" - a fundamental truth of the Reformation, lost since in the modern evangelical times, even spoken against in their ignorance, yet recovered by Lee and Nee.

If things continue the way they have, then Christians will eventually believe that Jesus was just a man on the cross and not God at all.


I now present "The World’s Toughest Catholic Quiz"
https://www.catholic.com/magazine/pr...pop-quiz-redux

The correct answer is c)

c. Correct, because the Person who died on the cross was a divine Person, commonly called the Son of God. Since that Person is God, it is proper to say that God died on the cross, even though that sounds odd and may make some unthinking people conclude that it means that God ceased to exist, which, of course, was not the case. (If you were sure this answer could not be right, don’t fret—you’re in good company. Most people miss this question because the correct answer "just doesn’t sound right.")
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Old Yesterday, 03:17 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
It might help if I post the full quote of Luther below, found here:

http://bookofconcord.org/sd-person.php.

The part I highlighted in bold should satisfy both those who say God did not die and those who say He did. I should add here that Lee had a way to put it that should be more conciliatory and that was to say the "God-man died".

The problem with saying "God dies" is that it implies that God's divine nature ceased. This is resolved by a caveat to say that in His nature, God cannot die.

However it is nonetheless correct to say "God died", according to Luther:


44] Dr. Luther says also in his book Of the Councils and the Church: We Christians must know that if God is not also in the balance, and gives the weight, we sink to the bottom with our scale. By this I mean: If it were not to be said [if these things were not true], God has died for us, but only a man, we would be lost. But if "God's death" and "God died" lie in the scale of the balance, then He sinks down, and we rise up as a light, empty scale. But indeed He can also rise again or leap out of the scale; yet He could not sit in the scale unless He became a man like us, so that it could be said: "God died," "God's passion," "God's blood," "God's death." For in His nature God cannot die; but now that God and man are united in one person, it is correctly called God's death, when the man dies who is one thing or one person with God. Thus far Luther.

I note that in discussions of God becoming man, many took issue with the idea of man becoming God, but few if any took issue with the first part of the quote "God became man". As such, few should take issue with saying "God died", as it is no worse than saying "God became man" (to a Jewish or Muslim mind, at least).

"God died" - a fundamental truth of the Reformation, lost since in the modern evangelical times, even spoken against in their ignorance, yet recovered by Lee and Nee.

If things continue the way they have, then Christians will eventually believe that Jesus was just a man on the cross and not God at all.
There is not anyone who took issue with saying that God died because God and Man are united. These two were united after the ascension of Jesus Christ.

That is, after the crucifixion. Hence God did not die on the cross according to your previous logical reductio ad absurdem.
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Old Yesterday, 03:39 PM   #57
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There is not anyone who took issue with saying that God died because God and Man are united. These two were united after the ascension of Jesus Christ.

That is, after the crucifixion. Hence God did not die on the cross according to your previous logical reductio ad absurdem.
The Father and the Son were never separated by the cross, not in any real sense anyway.
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Old Yesterday, 04:15 PM   #58
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The Father and the Son were never separated by the cross, not in any real sense anyway.
The basic concept of God is that God is immortal, eternal, ever existing.

The basic concept of death is that it first entered in due to sin.

Therefore a doctrine that "God died" requires a great deal of explanation as it is contrary to everything we were taught since Genesis 2. To base this on "God's blood" is truly a doctrine built on sand.
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Old Yesterday, 04:18 PM   #59
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The basic concept of God is that God is immortal, eternal, ever existing.

The basic concept of death is that it first entered in due to sin.

Therefore a doctrine that "God died" requires a great deal of explanation as it is contrary to everything we were taught since Genesis 2. To base this on "God's blood" is truly a doctrine built on sand.
For centuries in Christianity it was believed that Jesus's blood was not human, but only divine, coming directly from God the Father and not Mary the mother.

Why is the blood of Christ precious? Because it is divine. His blood is eternal and infallible. If Christ's blood was temporal, then we could not "plead the blood" today.


You said "This in turn led to the erroneous conclusion that it was God's blood when it was shed. "

It was God's blood before, during and after the crucifixion - Jesus never had a human-blood transfusion.

Death can be seen as the separation of the soul from the body.

Death can also be seen as the spilling of blood. Hence when God's blood is spilled, it is God's death. "The life is in the blood" - God's life left Christ. When the human life leaves the body, that is called "human death". When God's life left Christ's body, that is "God's death".

I believe Luther was correct when he wrote ""God died," "God's passion," "God's blood," "God's death." "

Dennis Ngien (Professor of Systematic Theology at Tyndale University College and Seminary in Toronto and Research Scholar in Theology at Blackfriars Hall, Oxford University. ) in a book "A Faith Worth Believing, Living, and Commending" writes

"Here is no surrogate. God Himself died a real death".

"The greatest marvel of the gospel is that the divinity was present in the Cross".
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Old Yesterday, 04:48 PM   #60
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For centuries in Christianity it was believed that Jesus's blood was not human, but only divine, coming directly from God the Father and not Mary the mother.

Why is the blood of Christ precious? Because it is divine. His blood is eternal and infallible. If Christ's blood was temporal, then we could not "plead the blood" today.


You said "This in turn led to the erroneous conclusion that it was God's blood when it was shed. "

It was God's blood before, during and after the crucifixion - Jesus never had a human-blood transfusion.

Death can be seen as the separation of the soul from the body.

Death can also be seen as the spilling of blood. Hence when God's blood is spilled, it is God's death. "The life is in the blood" - God's life left Christ. When the human life leaves the body, that is called "human death". When God's life left Christ's body, that is "God's death".

I believe Luther was correct when he wrote ""God died," "God's passion," "God's blood," "God's death." "

Dennis Ngien (Professor of Systematic Theology at Tyndale University College and Seminary in Toronto and Research Scholar in Theology at Blackfriars Hall, Oxford University. ) in a book "A Faith Worth Believing, Living, and Commending" writes

"Here is no surrogate. God Himself died a real death".

"The greatest marvel of the gospel is that the divinity was present in the Cross".
This is such superstitious drivel.

I have no interest in your ravings. Share the verse with me that you are talking about.

The word became flesh -- yes we all agree.

Jesus was born of a virgin -- yes we all agree.

God gave his son as a lamb -- He was in the likeness of sin yet without sin -- we all agree.

None of that is the question. The question is at what time did the human blood of Jesus become "God's blood"? That happened at the ascension. I have provided numerous verses to this effect. When you are asked to do the same you wiggle and squirm out of it.

How could Jesus blood be "God's blood" before the ascension? Jesus death was a peace offering to God.

I have leather shoes, they are mine, that does not imply that they were made from my skin.
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Old Yesterday, 05:22 PM   #61
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This is such superstitious drivel.

I have no interest in your ravings. Share the verse with me that you are talking about.

The word became flesh -- yes we all agree.

Jesus was born of a virgin -- yes we all agree.

God gave his son as a lamb -- He was in the likeness of sin yet without sin -- we all agree.

None of that is the question. The question is at what time did the human blood of Jesus become "God's blood"? That happened at the ascension. I have provided numerous verses to this effect. When you are asked to do the same you wiggle and squirm out of it.

How could Jesus blood be "God's blood" before the ascension? Jesus death was a peace offering to God.

I have leather shoes, they are mine, that does not imply that they were made from my skin.

You can't consistently believe in the "superstition" of the Virgin birth and at the same time deny the "superstition" that Jesus's blood was divine. Since Jesus did not have a "sin nature", how could Jesus have sinful blood? My understanding is that any fallen human blood from the mother was sanctified or washed away by divinity, thus the blood was divine blood.
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Old Yesterday, 05:27 PM   #62
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Default Re: God in life and nature... oh really?

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Evangelical said that on the cross it was God's blood because "God died".

I said that Jesus humanity became part of God's after His ascension, hence His blood is God's blood, but that does not mean that God died.

That is the general theme of this article. It shows that many teachers referred to "God's blood" based on this verse but very few of them taught that "God died". It also points out all the problems that arise from that doctrine, primarily that there is no scriptural support for it other than this interpretation of these two words.

This is why I said that the "more cautious" Biblical scholars -- i.e. those that require numerous verses before coming up with an interpretation.
Again, you seem to be conflicted between an exaltation christology whereby Jesus becomes God in ascension and an incarnation christology whereby Jesus is God at birth. You seem to lean toward the former but when questioned you assent to the former. In a way you seem to hold two opinions simultaneous or perhaps you're going back and forth between them.

Witness Lee is quoted to say:
Quote:
The crucifixion of Christ was also God's crucifixion because God is one with Christ all the time (John 8:29; 16:32). God never left Christ alone. When Christ was incarnated, God was incarnated. They coinhered. When Christ was living on this earth, God was living. When Christ was crucified, God was crucified. This is because They coinhere, that is, They mutually indwell each other. In the Gospels Christ told us repeatedly that the Father was in Him and He was in the Father (John 10:38; 14:10-11, 20; 17:21). Thus, we may say that god died in Christ, so Christ's crucifixion became God's crucifixion. god died in man. god died not in His own death but in another One's death. god died in the Son's death. (The Move of God in Man, Chapter 4, Section 4)
WL and/or LSM is hedging a bit by putting god in the lower case whatever that means.

At the moment it seems to me that no matter how "cautious" the interpreter , is in talking about this stuff, it is unlikely that anyone knows what they're talking about. From a human standpoint it's clear that it was the early church that produced the New Testament and the church that deified Jesus of Nazareth. What happened in heaven, the divine realm, ultimate reality, the metaphysical sphere or whatever you prefer to call it, is anybody's guess.

Feel free to argue on about it. Perhaps there is something to be learned in the process, But, be kind to each other in the process. Kindness seems to be a value the man Jesus actually stood for.
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Old Yesterday, 06:46 PM   #63
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You can't consistently believe in the "superstition" of the Virgin birth and at the same time deny the "superstition" that Jesus's blood was divine. Since Jesus did not have a "sin nature", how could Jesus have sinful blood? My understanding is that any fallen human blood from the mother was sanctified or washed away by divinity, thus the blood was divine blood.
I believe in the Bible.
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Old Yesterday, 06:48 PM   #64
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Again, you seem to be conflicted between an exaltation theology whereby Jesus becomes God in ascension and an incarnation theology whereby Jesus is God at birth. You seem to lean toward the former but when questioned you assent to the former. In a way you seem to hold two opinions simultaneous or perhaps you're going back and forth between them.

Witness Lee is quoted to say:


WL and/or LSM is hedging a bit by putting god in the lower case whatever that means.

At the moment it seems to me that no matter how "cautious" the interpreter , is in talking about this stuff, it is unlikely that anyone knows what they're talking about. From a human standpoint it's clear that it was the early church that produced the New Testament and the church that deified Jesus of Nazareth. What happened in heaven, the divine realm, ultimate reality, the metaphysical sphere or whatever you prefer to call it, is anybody's guess.

Feel free to argue on about it. Perhaps there is something to be learned in the process, But, be kind to each other in the process. Kindness seems to be a value the man Jesus actually stood for.
Incarnation is a mystery. The humanity of Christ becoming divine is a mystery. I have not hedged the slightest bit on accepting the Bible as the final arbiter of truth. What is extremely disappointing is Evangelical perpetuating his doctrine without the slightest scriptural support.
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Old Yesterday, 07:01 PM   #65
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Incarnation is a mystery. The humanity of Christ becoming divine is a mystery. I have not hedged the slightest bit on accepting the Bible as the final arbiter of truth. What is extremely disappointing is Evangelical perpetuating his doctrine without the slightest scriptural support.
I think there is scriptural support in as much as the Gospel of John portrays Jesus as God who's life could not be taken from him. He is the I am who lays down his life and has the power to take it back. Only God has that power. Therefore , Jesus is God . When he died , God died. What else do you need?
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Old Yesterday, 07:50 PM   #66
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I think there is scriptural support in as much as the Gospel of John portrays Jesus as God who's life could not be taken from him. He is the I am who lays down his life and has the power to take it back. Only God has that power. Therefore , Jesus is God . When he died , God died. What else do you need?
God is not "lower than the angels". I provided the verse reference that Jesus became "lower than the angels" so that He could suffer death.

Look at the verses I have provided. I think they are very persuasive and very clear and it says plainly, repeatedly, Jesus suffered death for man, not for God.

The only arguments I have seen for "God died" are logical arguments based on an inferential understanding. That is extremely unsatisfying to me when you want to propose a doctrine that is so wildly contradictory to everything we thought we knew based on the OT.

God is love. After the ascension man, in the form of Jesus Christ, "was worthy" and entered into the Godhead. Why? The cross demonstrated that this man also "was love". Man died on the cross, just like Jesus said "I am the Son of Man".
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Old Yesterday, 08:02 PM   #67
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God is not "lower than the angels". I provided the verse reference that Jesus became "lower than the angels" so that He could suffer death.
OK. So the Gospel of John gets it wrong. Got it.

Quote:
Look at the verses I have provided. I think they are very persuasive and very clear and it says plainly, repeatedly, Jesus suffered death for man, not for God.
The issue is what he was not who he died for.

Quote:
The only arguments I have seen for "God died" are logical arguments based on an inferential understanding. That is extremely unsatisfying to me when you want to propose a doctrine that is so wildly contradictory to everything we thought we knew based on the OT.
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Old Yesterday, 08:06 PM   #68
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God is love. After the ascension man, in the form of Jesus Christ, "was worthy" and entered into the Godhead. Why? The cross demonstrated that this man also "was love". Man died on the cross, just like Jesus said "I am the Son of Man".
OK so Jesus was not God until he ascended. Got it. Scratch the incarnation. Throw out the Gospel of John. Got it.
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Old Yesterday, 08:37 PM   #69
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Copied from LCD on the thread with same name:

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Originally Posted by awareness
Some of those early church fathers you are falling back on got fired. Including your favorite boy Athanasius.

The early church fathers were just men, living in the iron age. Why should we listen to any of them, or consider them authoritative?

They invented the RCC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by EvanG
You believe the writers of the scripture, Peter Paul etc were just iron age men as well?

Anyway, one reason we can consider them authoritative is because they used the Scripture authoritatively:

No one reading the apostolic and other early Fathers can’t help but be stuck by their extensive and authoritative use of Scripture. Just seven major Fathers from Justin Martyr to Eusebius cites 36, 289 verses from the New Testament–every verse but eleven (most of which are from 3 John). Irenaeus alone cites nearly 2000 verses (1819 to be exact) (see Leach, OBHGI, 35-36).


http://normangeisler.com/tag/early-church-fathers/

On the topic of modalism quotes of Athanasius was the favorite of people on here. People will quote Athanasius and perhaps other early church fathers on here when it suits them.

They are not as authoritative as Scripture obviously but there's a difference between rejecting a doctrine because the Bible denies it (which in this case, it doesn't) and rejecting a doctrine because the Bible doesn't say it (and ignoring what the early church fathers, even the Reformers like Luther say). So far the only argument I have seen against it is that "the bible doesn't say it". The Bible does not deny it, in which case the weight of the early church fathers, Luther, Wesley and others, must count for something.

Dennis Ngien (Professor of Systematic Theology at Tyndale University College and Seminary in Toronto and Research Scholar in Theology at Blackfriars Hall, Oxford University. ) in a book "A Faith Worth Believing, Living, and Commending" writes

"Evangelicals should not be offended at the thought that the death of the
crucified Christ involved not only the humanity of Jesus but also his deity".

"Here is no surrogate. God Himself died a real death".

"The greatest marvel of the gospel is that the divinity was present in the Cross".

"If we take the Trinity and Incarnation seriously and recognize that this human Jesus is the second divine person, there is no suffering closer to God than the suffering of the human Jesus. Thus the human suffering of Jesus is really God's own suffering: God suffered as we do".

What has been happening in recent years in Christianity, although for some time I guess, is a denial of Jesus's divinity and people's reactions to "God's death" is a symptom of that. A heresy which the early church battled was that Jesus was not human. Today it is the opposite - that Jesus was not divine. Only Witness Lee (and possibly others) have stressed the God-man aspect of Christ, which in my view is fair and balanced.
Untohim has made it clear that, this couldn't be discussed on the Evangelical section of LCD. I paste it here for discussion. I will chime in after it marinates on here for awhile.

Thanks for posting it Evangelical.
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Old Today, 02:55 AM   #70
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Copied from LCD on the thread with same name:


Untohim has made it clear that, this couldn't be discussed on the Evangelical section of LCD. I paste it here for discussion. I will chime in after it marinates on here for awhile.

Thanks for posting it Evangelical.
I am an evangelical and I'm quoting other evangelicals..eg..Geisler and Luther. I dont see the problem but if thats the case lets discuss here.
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Old Today, 05:52 AM   #71
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OK so Jesus was not God until he ascended. Got it. Scratch the incarnation. Throw out the Gospel of John. Got it.
Not what I said. Incarnation brought God into man. Ascension brought Man into God.

How can you not understand? If I buy a smart phone, the phone has all the chips and equipment necessary to access the internet, cellular service, bluetooth, wifi, etc. All of that was put into the phone. That is similar to the incarnation.

However, that phone is a glorified calculator until it is hooked up to a plan. AT&T, Verizon, etc. Once the phone is activated with a plan, that is ascension.

God did not have blood and flesh as part of the Godhead at the time of the crucifixion. It was not God that died on that cross. On the other hand that body hanging on the cross was an offering to God, so it is fair to say it belonged to God in the same way my leather shoes belong to me.

Therefore Paul was correct in saying that it was "God's blood" and Witness Lee was incorrect in saying that God died.
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Old Today, 05:58 AM   #72
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Copied from LCD on the thread with same name:


Untohim has made it clear that, this couldn't be discussed on the Evangelical section of LCD. I paste it here for discussion. I will chime in after it marinates on here for awhile.

Thanks for posting it Evangelical.
Evangelical -- "No one reading the apostolic and other early Fathers can’t help but be stuck by their extensive and authoritative use of Scripture."

What I am struck by is that WL lambasted and ridiculed these guys without end, but now the only way to support his unscriptural doctrine is by claiming that these guys used the scripture authoritatively.

Using the scripture "authoritatively", is this one of the items of the MOTA teaching? Maybe if you quote scripture and you are not a MOTA then it is not "authoritative" but if you are a MOTA then it is "authoritative".

I hope Evangelical can explain this. The same person who said we shouldn't use scripture to support the "God died" doctrine because of the potential for differing interpretations yet says the reason we should trust these guys is because of their authoritative use of scripture (presumably with other doctrines since he still hasn't given us this authoritative scripture to support his outlandish claims).

Since when is not providing a single scripture reference to support the "God died" thesis considered "extensive" use of scripture? Once again Evangelical continues to astound and amaze with his bizarre use of the english language.
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Old Today, 07:33 AM   #73
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Not what I said. Incarnation brought God into man. Ascension brought Man into God.
So, God was in Jesus when he was born, but he wasn't God until he ascended into God. It's all about spacial metaphors. Jesus is a non-God container for God. God is up so Jesus has to ascend upward to get to God.

Quote:
How can you not understand? If I buy a smart phone, the phone has all the chips and equipment necessary to access the internet, cellular service, bluetooth, wifi, etc. All of that was put into the phone. That is similar to the incarnation.

However, that phone is a glorified calculator until it is hooked up to a plan. AT&T, Verizon, etc. Once the phone is activated with a plan, that is ascension.
So Jesus was like a phone without a wireless plan. How can I not understand?

Quote:
God did not have blood and flesh as part of the Godhead at the time of the crucifixion. It was not God that died on that cross. On the other hand that body hanging on the cross was an offering to God, so it is fair to say it belonged to God in the same way my leather shoes belong to me.
Christologies are different ways of imagining the Christ narrative. This is what works for you. Other people's narratives can look pretty ridiculous. God only knows which one's are right if any.

Quote:
Therefore Paul was correct in saying that it was "God's blood" and Witness Lee was incorrect in saying that God died.
Lee and a bunch of other orthodox church theologians across two millennia.
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Old Today, 08:09 AM   #74
awareness
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Default Re: "God died on the cross."

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Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah View Post
Evangelical -- "No one reading the apostolic and other early Fathers can’t help but be stuck by their extensive and authoritative use of Scripture."

What I am struck by is that WL lambasted and ridiculed these guys without end, but now the only way to support his unscriptural doctrine is by claiming that these guys used the scripture authoritatively.

Using the scripture "authoritatively", is this one of the items of the MOTA teaching? Maybe if you quote scripture and you are not a MOTA then it is not "authoritative" but if you are a MOTA then it is "authoritative".

I hope Evangelical can explain this. The same person who said we shouldn't use scripture to support the "God died" doctrine because of the potential for differing interpretations yet says the reason we should trust these guys is because of their authoritative use of scripture (presumably with other doctrines since he still hasn't given us this authoritative scripture to support his outlandish claims).

Since when is not providing a single scripture reference to support the "God died" thesis considered "extensive" use of scripture? Once again Evangelical continues to astound and amaze with his bizarre use of the english language.
We're all different bro ZNP. All raised differently, with different fathers, and so different father figures in our heads.

Some of us need authority figures more than others. I'm not sayin', but, maybe our brother Evangelical is one of them.

If I read him out here correctly I'd draw that conclusion. He seems to have a fixation on Authoritative-ness. I can't blame him, I've been there. I think prolly, given our relations with the LC, we all have been there, at one time or other.

I do find it telling that he seems to be scrambling for any "authoritative" voice to support his position that, God died on the cross (com'on, that has to hit everybody's funny bone).

He not only reaches back to the "authoritative" church fathers -- who read the scriptures with authority (scriptures, NT, that weren't fully developed by that point - so no absolute authority there yet), he offers Norman Geisler as authoritative. I guess he uses Geisler because he pulls no punches and outright states that, God died on the cross.

But regardless, even with all the disagreements down thru the ages (that started early on) this is the Christianity that has come down to us : Jesus was God, therefore God died on the cross.

Like bro zeek pointed out, speaking perchance from an apologist perspective, it's a mystery.

And like Paul said of "a guy that he knew," that "was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.* it may be unlawful to even speak of this matter.

God died on the cross? As Paul said, it's unspeakable.
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