Brothers, what shall we do?

[leastofthese]

I've started this thread, inspired by a different discussion (their quotes below). I apologize if this already exists somewhere else on the forum or if it needs to be in a different section...

We all know that Lee and his Ministry has been (and still is) accused of many things. We know that Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. To some degree, most people on this thread have broken free from the organization of LSM to more honestly pursue the God of the Bible, our Savior Jesus Christ, and His Spirit who guides us as his Children.

How do you describe LSM and the local church denomination to those outside of the church? Many have found good things, experiences, and nice people in LSM - I have heard many of these same thoughts from Mormon friends and assume I can find similar claims within Jehovah Witnesses, Muslim, Scientologists, etc. We know that feelings, experiences, and nice people is not what our Lord calls us to. We know through Scripture that there is one true God, who has revealed himself to us through His Son, Spirit, and Word. The Lord has made this clear for me and my family, but what about others?

In regards to LSM:

Should we warn others that have recently touched the church?

Should we continue to pray for deliverance for friends in the church?

Do you consider LSM and LC to be standing on solid ground?

Should we command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies?

Should we step in when we see believers led astray by hypocrisy and conduct that is not in step with the truth of the gospel?

I know that I've rambled through many questions, but I hope you are able to get the underlying theme of my questions. It is difficult for me to reconcile these thoughts. I know that many on this forum have already reflected on questions like these and would like to hear your conclusion.

Originally Posted by Freedom

I agree about the issue not being organization. For the LCM to have followed a 'pattern' that Nee warned about is more a matter of irony than anything else. As I see it, the true "fatal flaw" of the LCM (besides their ever-willingness to blindly embrace extremes) is something Nigel mentions later on in his paper, that is, the canonization of Lee. They have eliminated the ability introduce anything new, any kind of considerable change, and also make it perfectly clear that nothing can be thrown out. Additionally, only practices which WL endorsed are accepted.

So the LCM finds itself in a state lacking any ability to adapt, at a time when change is so desperately needed. How can a group reasonably expect to survive in such a state? Obviously, this is something the LCM can’t come to terms with. They blame their condition and decline on things like 'opposition'. From their point of view, they mainly rest their hopes in the notion that someday people at large will begin to discover WL's supposed 'storehouse' in the midst of the ‘famine’. In their minds, this hypothetical scenario makes up for whatever lack of success they face at present.

I find it hard to really qualify how 'beneficial' WL's ministry actually was, and I think the answer is different for everyone. There are things I thought were useful, which I later decided were toxic, and there are also things that still think were probably were helpful. Needless to say, twenty years after WL's death, given there hasn't been a substantial interest in WL’s ministry outside the LCM, I think it’s fair to say that the case is closed. Whatever true benefit there was has already been seen, and whatever it is that was in WL's 'storehouse' has definitely gone stale by now.

Originally posted by ZNPaaneah

I think this hits the nail on the head. Canonization of WL is far more serious than any error he may have made. Hence, the fatal flaw. As a result LCM is unable to adapt, no flexibility, no ability to respond, like an arthritic person. Also I think it is very interesting how little of WL's ministry has been picked up by Christians outside of LCM (unlike WN which was absorbed). This is the real proof of the "globalization". Can anyone find Christians outside of LCM going to WL for the "storehouse". I think it is safe to say no, after all he routinely condemns those outside, this is the "toxic stew" that is mixed into his ministry.

__________________

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

In regards to LSM: Should we warn others that have recently touched the church?

I have no burden to do anything of that sort other than the posts on this forum.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Should we continue to pray for deliverance for friends in the church?

By all means, as the Lord leads, pray.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Do you consider LSM and LC to be standing on solid ground?

LSM has to deal with the unrighteousness of their past which they have tried to sweep under the rug. Until they have dealt with the unrighteousness they will not be standing on solid ground.

If the LC continues to be a LSM franchise they are not standing on solid ground. They also have to go back to the Bible and reassess their ground of the church doctrine. I have posted on this forum about this issue repeatedly. Their doctrine of the ground of the church is seriously flawed and unscriptural and results in justifying division making it one of the key pillars of the damnable heresy.

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Should we command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies? Should we step in when we see believers led astray by hypocrisy and conduct that is not in step with the truth of the gospel?

We should be imitators of the Apostles.

[JJ]

Concern

Originally Posted by leastofthese

In regards to LSM:

Should we warn others that have recently touched the church?

Should we continue to pray for deliverance for friends in the church?

Do you consider LSM and LC to be standing on solid ground?

Should we command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies?

Should we step in when we see believers led astray by hypocrisy and conduct that is not in step with the truth of the gospel? __

Participating in this forum is a good way to warn others. There is nothing more powerful than former members speaking from the Word of God, in the Spirit, and from experience. But, ultimately keeping our eyes on Jesus and testifying of His glory and triumph is the most important thing, and really the only thing that we Christians can agree about anyway

If the LSM and LC were on solid ground I'd be there. Initially the ground of locality was presented to us as being inclusive of all blood washed and Spirit born Christians, and allowed freedom to receive a variety of ministers and ministries of Christ as long as they share the common "faith once delivered to the saints". Unfortunately that is not practice, and grieves the Holy Spirit.

God will take care of it. The leaders have been asked to repent by many sincere brothers in love for over 30 years.

Prayers certainly help!

I've suggested a "local church discussions" conference on this topic "what should we do?" to some of the brothers here. But that hasn't gained any traction.

My motivation for that was to allow discussion of both positive and negative of TLR and LSM, test, and keep the good. I've gathered from two years of reading these boards that most of the saints here think it is best to throw out the whole leavened lump.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

In regards to LSM:
Should we warn others that have recently touched the church?
Should we continue to pray for deliverance for friends in the church?
Do you consider LSM and LC to be standing on solid ground?
Should we command certain people not to teach false doctrines any longer or to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies?
Should we step in when we see believers led astray by hypocrisy and conduct that is not in step with the truth of the gospel?

leastofthese has posed some very relevant questions. My answers, in short, are Yes, Yes, No, Yes and a BIG YES! Nothing, absolutely nothing, can be more important, and even urgent, than what is "in step with the truth of the Gospel", especially when it comes to some dear brothers and sisters who have been led to believe that there is some "higher gospel", or higher truth than what has been plainly presented to us in the four Gospels and teachings of the apostles. The very foundation, the very core, the very essential content of the Christian Faith is found within the four biblical Gospels, Acts and the epistles of Peter, Paul, John, James and Jude, along with Hebrews. "The truth of the Gospel" is solely and completely invested in the canon of the New Testament, and NOT in any interpretation thereof. Sadly, and even tragically, our dear brothers and sisters in the Local Church have been led to believe that "the interpreted word", AKA "the Ministry", AKA the spoken/written words of Witness Lee, is equal to, or even supersedes the Holy Writ itself.

Speaking the truth in love is not a suggestion or an option when it comes to "the defense and confirmation of the Gospel". (Philippians 1:7) The Local Church/LSM has a sub-organization they have dubbed "DCP - Defense and Confirmation Project", but they have little to no interest in defending or confirming the Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, but rather they are "in business" to defend and confirm the person and work of Witness Lee. Ostensibly, DCP was also established to defend and confirm the ministry of Watchman Nee, however, apparently the revered founder of the Movement is not in as much need of defense and confirmation as Witness Lee, because the fast majority of their efforts go into attacking (sometimes suing) Lee's critics.

All this being said, I would emphasize that "our struggle is not against flesh and blood" (Ephesians 6:12) - Our brothers and sisters in the Local Churches, including the brothers over at DCP, are deserving of all the love and respect afforded to any and all of "those who are of the household of faith", even if they to not return the favor. Yet our love and respect must always and forever be decidedly linked to the Truth of the Gospel - The Gospel which is clearly presented in the New Testament.

Originally Posted by JJ

Participating in this forum is a good way to warn others. There is nothing more powerful than former members speaking from the Word of God, in the Spirit, and from experience. But, ultimately keeping our eyes on Jesus and testifying of His glory and triumph is the most important thing, and really the only thing that we Christians can agree about anyway

My motivation for that was to allow discussion of both positive and negative of TLR and LSM, test, and keep the good. I've gathered from two years of reading these boards that most of the saints here think it is best to throw out the whole leavened lump.

As far as JJ's last observation (in bold), I would say there is quite a diversity among the forum members. In my experience and observation over the past 40 years, there is an inherent danger in attempting to "keep the good", or try to "keep the baby while throwing out the bathwater", as it were. When it comes to the teachings and practices of the Local Church of Witness Lee, the baby and the bathwater are so intermingled and intertwined that they have become virtually indistinguishable. Furthermore, to one dear brother, there may be a teaching or practice that they feel is very good and well worth holding on to, while another brother may consider the very same teaching or practice something of the "leavened lump", and needs to be discarded in any event.

I would point you to the experiences of some of the brothers and sisters in the MidWest and Canada over the past number of years. I'm thinking mainly of Nigel Tomes in Toronto and John Myer in Columbus, and all the saints that stood with them. I believe they made a very gallant and determined attempt at discarding many of the unprofitable and divisive teachings and practices, while trying to "hold to what is good". But they ran into a very big problem - When they attempted to throw out the bath water, the baby turned on them with great resistance and indignation! In fact, the baby ended up telling them to stop throwing out the bathwater, or else they could just leave the tub! Soooo.....they both ended up just leaving the tub....after being sued and excommunicated, of course, by that rather contentious and litigious baby, who cares more for his precious bathwater than the other occupants of the tub.

These two brothers have gone on to seek, pursue and proclaim the Lord and his Word among the wider Body of Christ. Their efforts have produced some very good fruit, and some of this fruit has been shared with us on this forum. And many of the members of the forum have also blessed the wider body of Christ through their thoughtful and heartfelt postings over the years, and for this I am greatly encouraged, thoroughly blessed and forever grateful.
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[Ohio]

Brothers, what shall we do?

Good question. And probably no right answer for all.

Recently I heard something written in a book by Titus Chu. He said that "our spiritual progress is determined by how we treat the brothers ahead of us in the Lord." Think about how this can be construed, or misconstrued, by the readers. Immediately I considered aron's immensely valuable insights about the Chinese culture coloring the truths of the Bible in the LC's. Let's look at this statement in light of our Lord's instruction to "beware of the leaven of the Pharisee's."

In the greater body of Christ (outside the LC's) this statement would never be spoken, but if it was, it would be understood that we cannot expect to grow in the Lord by constantly insulting and denigrating every older brother we meet. Who would not agree with that? But in the LC's, these coded words imply total subjection to their designated authorities at the expense of our faith. Break that rule and you are finished with the Lord. Your Christian life is over. In fact, the lesson is simple: the more you submit, the more you will grow, despite sacrificing one's walk with the Lord Himself. Thus a set of false fears kept us in bondage for years. I agree that we should subject ourselves to our leaders, but have we no recourse when these same leaders are hurting other brothers.

Where are the caveats for leadership error? Where are the mechanisms to address serious issues in the LC's? There are none! When all the corruption occurred at LSM over the years, Titus Chu looked the other way and said, "Witness Lee is my spiritual father, his mistakes are none of my business." Wait a minute here folks! I thought, based on the scriptures, that the business of all ministers was to serve the Lord faithfully and shepherd His children. It is Chinese culture which places a "spiritual father" above the Lord and His children.

Some will say, "Oh Ohio, you are reading way too much into this!" Maybe so. But I was there 30 plus years, and then I spent the last 10 years studying them from the outside. Needless to say, I have learned a few things, especially from literally hundreds of others who were there too. My point in writing this is not to bash anyone, but to highlight the difficulty in discerning the "good and the worthless" in the LC, which often covers true spirituality with a Chinese cultural veneer.

[Freedom]

I don’t know if there are definite answers to the questions posed at the beginning of this thread, but I am certain that it is appropriate to confront the LCM in public forums or to speak with LC members individually with the goal of holding people accountable to their words and actions. For instance, if it is proclaimed by LC members that Christianity is a “barren wasteland”, it might be a good idea to ask for the evidence behind such a statement instead of just saying ‘amen’. Simple stuff like that. A full-on debate might not resolve anything, but putting the burden of proof on the person who is asserting something is a good way to get people to think about what they are actually saying.

The LCM is a system reliant upon constituents who blindly trust their leaders. So I guess my point is that those who are in the LCM are there because they feel that it is the best place to be. It’s not likely they can be convinced otherwise. But they can be held accountable to what they say and do, especially if they are pressuring people to attend their meetings, distributing their literature, etc. To the extent that they do that, I see engaging in discussion or debate as being fair game.

[JJ]

One of the positive things about TLR to me is still the format of Lord's table and other large meetings that allow more freedom of the Spirit (than I've seen in community churches) for saints to spontaneously respond to the Lord's prompting to:

Pray
Praise
Read scripture
Call a hymn or song
Break and pass bread and wine
Testify to encourage and exhort
Confess sin

[JJ]

Of course I've seen some real abuses of the format I mentioned too!