Where do we go from here?

[Toledo]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Anyway, we can go round-and-round here. If Toledo wants to clarify what he meant by "personal experience of Christ" he is welcome to do so.

No, I do not care to do so. I stopped contributing to this thread.

I have given 35 years of my life to follow the Lord Jesus in the local churches. To learn something of the hidden, dirty things of the Living Stream Ministry office has served as a discouragement to me. Especially as it comes at a time when that office is causing such open disruption amongst the churches. Right now there are divisions caused by LSM in hundreds of local churches, including more than a half dozen churches in which I have personally labored.

I came to this site because I was looking for some help in how to go on, and how to care for those brothers who are meeting with me. Instead I got the parsing of sentences, deliberate misunderstanding, and a focus on the misdeeds of the past.

Frankly, I don't much care about how the LSM brothers have twisted and distorted the riches of Christ for their own aggrandizement. I have never particularly looked to any of them for guidance. Nor have I ever considered myself to be under authority to any of them. We all must appear before the judgment seat of Christ. I hope I will not be standing to close to them on that day.

I am looking for a way to go on. I am struggling to consider what items to retain of my experience and of the teachings I have received, and what items to let go. For me, Christ has to be the center, and the appreciation of His riches must become a part of my daily walk. My concerns have to do with the care of all the dear saints with me who have been distressed, disturbed, and damaged, yet have remained faithful to follow the Lord.

Focusing on the sins of a dead man and of his ungodly son, and biting and devouring one another do not seem to be a way I care to follow. Thus, allow me as well to offer my apologies to those whom I may have offended. I am often too hasty with my words, and sometimes my colloquial expressions bring a hurt I did not intend. I endeavor to keep my heart open to you all.

Much love in Christ,

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Toledo

I have given 35 years of my life to follow the Lord Jesus in the local churches. To learn something of the hidden, dirty things of the Living Stream Ministry office has served as a discouragement to me.

I came to this site because I was looking for some help in how to go on, and how to care for those brothers who are meeting with me.

Frankly, I don't much care about how the LSM brothers have twisted and distorted the riches of Christ for their own aggrandizement. We all must appear before the judgment seat of Christ.I hope I will not be standing to close to them on that day.

I am looking for a way to go on. I am struggling to consider what items to retain of my experience and of the teachings I have received, and what items to let go. For me, Christ has to be the center, and the appreciation of His riches must become a part of my daily walk.

Toledo,
I don't post much anymore..and I barely scan through the threads as most of them don't interest me either.

I was not in the LC as long as most people here were but it did affect me like it affected everyone else.

Just a couple of comments..... first off I chuckled at your statement I hope I will not be standing to close to them on that day. When each of us stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ, we will be in our Glorified bodies. We'll be getting our rewards. If you see them, you won't see them through painful eyes. I'm sure you already know this...just wanted to console you just the same.

The main thing that has helped me move forward is being conscientious of not using the LSM/LC jargon. I noticed your term 'looking for a way to go on'

I had to work hard to get away from the phrases used such as "these ones", "we're going on" and "O LORD! What about so and so?"..

I also stopped addressing everyone as 'brother' or 'sister'. We are of course brethren in Christ and there is a TIME and Place for addressing one another as Brother or Sister...but we're also men and women of God and ladies and gentlemen in Christ.

Pray reading the way we used to. Praying the Word of God back to Him is excellent for sure but with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, look for a fresh way of praying the Word back to the Lord. Look for new scriptures to pray back to Him. Unfamiliar ones.

Talk to the Father. Talk to the Son. Talk to the Holy Spirit.

Obviously they are ONE God. But I learned a lot about the Holy Spirit the last couple of years. I thought I knew Him but I didn't. I was accustomed to praying to the Lord Jesus Christ only. Of course I knew I had the Holy Spirit in me. I confess to my shame I did not know the Holy Spirit like I knew the Lord Jesus though...and I knew the Father even less. I'm still getting to know our Heavenly Father.

The Trinity of the Godhead is complex to our earthly minds but I have found the more I pray to the Lord Jesus, seek Guidance and Counsel from our Comforter the Holy Spirit, listen and OBEY His Leading...pouring my love, & Praise with Thanksgiving to the Father through our Lord Jesus Christ and HIS HOLY SPIRIT...acknowledging each member of the Godhead, the closer I have been getting to the Lord..and His Word is enlightening me, renewing my mind, transforming me from Glory to Glory.

Go to Christian book stores, Borders or B & N and check out different subject matters that might interest you. Search & google different topics on the internet too.

And remember.....FORGIVE those who have trespassed against us. Doesn't mean we make them our best friends!....just Forgive them...it is hard at times but that's why we ask our HELPER..Jesus and His Holy Spirit to HELP us forgive those we don't want to forgive.

May the LORD draw you nearer and dearer to HIM as we await and LOOK for His Glorious Appearing which is Sooooooon!

[Hope]

Originally Posted by Toledo

...I have given 35 years of my life to follow the Lord Jesus in the local churches. To learn something of the hidden, dirty things of the Living Stream Ministry office has served as a discouragement to me. Especially as it comes at a time when that office is causing such open disruption amongst the churches. Right now there are divisions caused by LSM in hundreds of local churches, including more than a half dozen churches in which I have personally labored.

Greetings Dear Brother in Christ, Toledo,

Ps 66:12 Thou didst make men ride over our heads; We went through fire and through water; Yet Thou didst bring us out into a place of abundance.

Your theme verse is exactly the same verse the Lord gave me in 1987. It was my wistful longing for a while, became my hope and is becoming my current reality.

I know what your post is expressing. I can imagine the pain you must be experiencing as you see dear ones in the GLA suffering due to the LSM etc. I fully understand your concern for the well being of the brethren you know and have been with. I also understand the sighing and shaking of your head when you have run into the following on this forum, “Instead I got the parsing of sentences, deliberate misunderstanding, and a focus on the misdeeds of the past.”

Your are in a sometimes befuddling cross fire. The LSM zealots declare all is wonderful with “the ministry,” (whatever that means?) [Side bar: my old friend Don Looper used to tell me to pay no attention to the shouting by many of being “one with the ministry” as who knows what in the world that means to them.] Anyway, on one side are the LSM disciples who allow no discouraging word. On the other side are some on this forum who declare burn it burn it down to the ground. If you attempt to seek the Lord for His way without respect for persons, the LSM says you are negative. If you desire to give credit where credit is due, then you are a target for some on the forum. (Dear forum posters, Toledo is an elder in a local church. That is even worse than being a former elder. Feel free to parse his words and to misunderstand and shoot him down at will. Any and all free shots are allowed.)

Toledo, as far as I am concerned, you have offended no one and took advantage of no one. I appreciate your ability to graciously express your own experience without allowing others to put you in a pigeon hole and dismiss what you share.
Come see us sometimes down here in North Carolina. Your portion will be received and your visit would be a blessing to us all. We are just your poor country cousins but we are wide open to you brothers in the GLA and to any help and encouragement you can give us.

In fact, while I am issuing invitations, how about some of you other dear GLA saints, Suannehill, Norm, Ohio, Peter Debelak, AndPeter, Speakerscorner and any others whom I have not mentioned or recognized. Y’all come see us. Peter Debelak please invite your dad.

Your brother in Christ Jesus,

Hope, Don Rutledge, a believer in the Lord Jesus Christ who is seeking to be a true disciple

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Toledo

I have given 35 years of my life to follow the Lord Jesus in the local churches. To learn something of the hidden, dirty things of the Living Stream Ministry office has served as a discouragement to me. Especially as it comes at a time when that office is causing such open disruption amongst the churches. Right now there are divisions caused by LSM in hundreds of local churches, including more than a half dozen churches in which I have personally labored.

Thank you Toledo for your heartfelt post. Having given about 20 years of my life to follow the Lord Jesus in the local churches myself, I can relate. Even though I am sort of “on the other side of then fence” now, so to speak, I can still relate in a major way. Many of your posts have caused me to have a strong realization that “the fence” between us is not something of my doing, and it is certainly not of your doing. How much of the fence is something of God as opposed to something of man is not completely clear at this point. It is probably a little of both. Anyway, the very things you have experienced over the recent years were the very things that placed me on the other side of the fence so many years ago. Yet you feel before the Lord to remain and hold to a certain standing. I can understand and appreciate this as well, and I want you and the others out there to know this.

I came to this site because I was looking for some help in how to go on, and how to care for those brothers who are meeting with me. Instead I got the parsing of sentences, deliberate misunderstanding, and a focus on the misdeeds of the past.

[COLOR=Blue]As the originator, and for now the lone administrator, of this forum this saddens me more then you could know. I came to the Bereans Apologetic forum about 5 years ago for very similar reasons. I took over as moderator there for very similar reasons as well, and then tried my best to see that an acceptable atmosphere was fostered for people who were “looking for some help in how to go on”. Admittedly I did so partially for selfish reasons because I was looking for some help in how to go on myself. I still am. Anyway, I had the very same hopes and dreams for this little adventure here. Due to some rather significant health setbacks I have not been able to contribute and nurse this forum along like any good administrator should do. I am on the mend now and hope to make up for lost time in the very near future. (probably not good news to some!).

Frankly, I don't much care about how the LSM brothers have twisted and distorted the riches of Christ for their own aggrandizement. I have never particularly looked to any of them for guidance. Nor have I ever considered myself to be under authority to any of them. We all must appear before the judgment seat of Christ. I hope I will not be standing to close to them on that day.

Wow, pretty heavy duty stuff, and a pretty sad commentary regarding these brothers who consider themselves to be “brother Lee’s continuation”. Be of good cheer though my brother, for I boldly proclaim that the real riches of Christ can never actually be twisted, distorted or hidden in any way for long – we have them before us now in the sacred pages of His Holy and abiding Word. They are rich, they are complete and thanks to God and the blood, sweat and tears of many dear saints they are still available. Most importantly, it is these very Words that we will be judged by at the judgment seat and not the mere words of any man or group of mortal men. Also we shall be rewarded or punished on how we received, lived by and obeyed these Words, and not by the words of any man or group of men.

I am looking for a way to go on. I am struggling to consider what items to retain of my experience and of the teachings I have received, and what items to let go. For me, Christ has to be the center, and the appreciation of His riches must become a part of my daily walk. My concerns have to do with the care of all the dear saints with me who have been distressed, disturbed, and damaged, yet have remained faithful to follow the Lord.

[COLOR=Blue]Again, thank you for these heartfelt words. I hope and pray that this forum can be a place that can develop into something that helps (more then hinders) you in your effort to help the dear saints with you. Eventually, maybe it could even become a resource to actually assist them to follow the Lord. Believe it or not, this is what I hope and pray for more then anything else. May God bless you and anyone else who comes here to assist in this effort.

Focusing on the sins of a dead man and of his ungodly son, and biting and devouring one another do not seem to be a way I care to follow.

I would agree wholeheartedly... if it were not for the fact that this dead man and his ungodly son so deeply impacted the lives of many thousands of God’s people, and the fact that they virtually created a religion out of thin air that drew away many thousands of God’s people to themselves. I know you would not state the history of the Local Church movement in these stark terms, but it is becoming clear that the major sins of this dead man, and to a lesser extent the pollution added by his ungodly son, have been biting and devouring away at the Local Church movement since the very beginning. While it should not be the main focus, neither will these matters be buried and ignored as if they are insignificant or irrelevant – for this is exactly how the Local Church got to be where it is today.

Thus, allow me as well to offer my apologies to those whom I may have offended. I am often too hasty with my words, and sometimes my colloquial expressions bring a hurt I did not intend. I endeavor to keep my heart open to you all.

Thank you brother.

[SpeakersCorner]

I've enjoyed the last batch of posts. Toledo, yours touched me deeply.

My experience in the local churches has never been easy nor has it been typical. I am an outlier in more ways than one. In many ways, I've had a love-hate relationship with the LC from day one. Toledo, you know I speak the truth.

But despite my grudging going on, and my curmudgeonly ways here on the forums, and despite my antipathy for that group in Anaheim which is now just a distant reality to me, despite all that has gone before I do believe this winding path I went through was led by the Spirit. And I believe it was the same for all of us.

Hence I have no desire to subvert that experience with bitterness, anger, or even logic (my own, whether it's good or not). The experience was precious and it has led me to this day.

More and more, I realize that Christ must be the center of everything. During the past election I spent way too much time reading blogs, polls, and opinions. In the end all it got me was another day older and deeper in debt (figuratively, you know). The world I see before me is drifting and soon rushing downstream to a meaninglessness of meaninglessnesses. I have spent countless hours trying to figure out where I stand today. And most of that time has been as wasted as those hours reading political opinion. Instead, I must simply declare Christ. That is all I know, Christ and Him crucified.

I have had a chance to do that twice in the past month, not that much, I know, but what a refreshing thing it was both times. I yearn the Lord would bring me into contact with more and more athiests, agnostics, and sinners in general.

Oh, and by the way, since we're all apologizing here (except Igzy ... come on, Ig, you can do it), sorry for my many offensive words and aggressive attitudes.

Maybe I will come down to visit you, Hope, in North Carolina. I am planning to head that way (Morgantown or is it Morganton? Gotta check) next spring. How far is that from y'all, as they say?

And Matt, don't stop at two: it's too binary, too tree of knowledgy. Have three like I did. Then the fights are always two against one which makes them more interesting.


SC

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Hope

Your are in a sometimes befuddling cross fire. The LSM zealots declare all is wonderful with “the ministry,” (whatever that means?) ... Anyway, on one side are the LSM disciples who allow no discouraging word. On the other side are some on this forum who declare burn it burn it down to the ground.

Witness Lee was right about one thing.... Christ is indeed "VERSUS" religion. If nothing else, we know from our Local Church experience that when we get tangled up in religion we will find ourselves in opposition to Christ Himself. It is an absolute. The problem is that there is a difference between religion and religious men. (kinda the ole love the sinner, hate the sin thing) We see from the record in the gospels that Christ was in fact viciously and actively versus religion - especially the religion that men had invented that had replaced the genuine thing. He befuddled a whole lot of people, let me tell you.

In a sense the Lord Jesus was shouting out.."burn it, burn it to the ground!" and this befuddled a whole lot of people. He did not demand or even ask for the temple to be burned to the ground - rather He told them that they had turned turned His Father's house into a house a merchandise. I'm quite certain that there were a number a hired hands to make sure there were no "discouraging words" bantered about near the temple in those days.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Toledo

I am looking for a way to go on. I am struggling to consider what items to retain of my experience and of the teachings I have received, and what items to let go. For me, Christ has to be the center, and the appreciation of His riches must become a part of my daily walk. My concerns have to do with the care of all the dear saints with me who have been distressed, disturbed, and damaged, yet have remained faithful to follow the Lord.

Focusing on the sins of a dead man and of his ungodly son, and biting and devouring one another do not seem to be a way I care to follow. Thus, allow me as well to offer my apologies to those whom I may have offended. I am often too hasty with my words, and sometimes my colloquial expressions bring a hurt I did not intend. I endeavor to keep my heart open to you all.

Toledo, thank you for your portion. I echo what Don has shared,

"Toledo, as far as I am concerned, you have offended no one and took advantage of no one."

From my point view regarding anyone on this forum, any offense through posts is never cause to cease or to cut off fellowship.

As for the late Witness Lee, he is no longer with us. He is still part of his history. It is a history that cannot be changed. It cannot be revised and nor should it be trivialized which is why I appreciate the efforts of Don in his writing. He brings out the positive and negative aspects of this history. For the record my educational passion is reared in history. History is a way of explaining the present by looking at the past.

There is a way to go on. We all the the Word of God. We on the forum may differ when it comes down to where to meet. The important thing I had to learn the last year and a half is the need to be built with other Christians. So I meet with a congregation that takes a name. I'd rather suffer the condescension than not to meet at all. If I learned anything from the local churches is that I don't want to know so much. I just want the basic fundamentals of our Christian faith.

With grace,

Terry

[Indiana]

TOLEDO QUOTE: I am looking for a way to go on. I am struggling to consider what items to retain of my experience and of the teachings I have received, and what items to let go. For me, Christ has to be the center, and the appreciation of His riches must become a part of my daily walk. My concerns have to do with the care of all the dear saints with me who have been distressed, disturbed, and damaged, yet have remained faithful to follow the Lord.

Focusing on the sins of a dead man and of his ungodly son, and biting and devouring one another do not seem to be a way I care to follow. END QUOTE


- The LCS thread is one I never got involved in. Toward the end, I read through the first 236 posts, then about ten in the middle and about ten in the end, where it stopped for a long time. I have to say I was not alarmed by the comments that provoked controversy. I felt that a principle was there to consider carefully.

As I listened to the Whistler quarantine session recently, with brothers once again parading to the podium as they did in 1990, words came back to me from this thread. "Drunk on Lee", "idol worship", I didn't know how else to explain the behavior of brothers like Dan Towle especially. Instead of referring to the word of God, it seemed to me I kept hearing, but brother Lee said, brother Lee's wishes were that... Then I get a call from a brother/friend in Seattle yesterday questioning me about my contact with John Ingalls that came to his ears, and he couldn't hear a word I said about the importance of misrepresentations of brothers in the past, and he simply relegated the subject to be a matter of ancient history. Such a brother has no interest in the truth. He is obsessed with Lee..."Drunk on Lee"? "Addicted to Lee"? "Idolatry"?... all are relevant possibilities.

It is much more than a matter of ancient history or of "focusing on the sins of a dead man and of his ungodly son". In essence, the dead man lives, and will continue to live - the BBs will see to that. "Brother Lee said.......... Brother Lee said................" Regardless, as Unto Him said,

...if it were not for the fact that this dead man and his ungodly son so deeply impacted the lives of many thousands of God’s people............................................ it is becoming clear that the major sins of this dead man, and to a lesser extent the pollution added by his ungodly son, have been biting and devouring away at the Local Church movement since the very beginning. While it should not be the main focus, neither will these matters be buried and ignored as if they are insignificant or irrelevant – for this is exactly how the Local Church got to be where it is today.

Terry has shared in response to a GLA brother:

As for the late Witness Lee, he is no longer with us. He is still part of his history. It is a history that cannot be changed. It cannot be revised and nor should it be trivialized which is why I appreciate the efforts of Don in his writing. He brings out the positive and negative aspects of this history. For the record my educational passion is reared in history. History is a way of explaining the present by looking at the past.



- In the GLA as well as in Taiwan there are many disillusioned saints seeking help and direction in the aftermath of division and quarantines brought on by LSM. Over a hundred quarantined brothers met with Titus a couple of months ago to determine, hopefully, the right direction for their spiritual lives.

One of those brothers who met with Titus has thanked me for helping him understand the history of deviation in the LSM dominated churches that has been going on for many, many years. He is really very thankful – and freed to know the truth and even to embrace it. He is also going on exceedingly well in his freedom to minister Christ, in his locality and in his travels to meet with suffering saints, according to the truth he has embraced. This is much different than the response in the Great Lakes area over the couple of years I have been on a forum. I sense no freedom there and don't expect to till their so-called leaders can respond with a conscience, integrity, and a spiritual backbone to the truth before God and man, and the churches they represent.

[Former LC member]

I do so enjoy the way people fellowship here. Sometimes polemic, sometimes arguing, sometimes binding each others wounds. This is indead a healthy sign. And at all times being frank and open.
I think of David and his wandering in the wilderness. He sometimes complained, sometimes praised, sometimes wept, and yet at the end of that time, he was a man after God's own heart. This is where I want to end up, and it is my hope.
Like Toledo, I don't like to focus too much on the negative things of the past. I want to find a way to go on. But thank God for this forum, where we can all meet and support each other through the various stages that we are passing through- Be it complaining or rejoicing, we can do it together and help each other forward towards the goal- to be people after God's own heart.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Joanna Tysoe

... But thank God for this forum, where we can all meet and support each other through the various stages that we are passing through- Be it complaining or rejoicing, we can do it together and help each other forward towards the goal- to be people after God's own heart.

Thank you Joanna. Amen to the goal of being a people after God's own heart! We're all hungry - Maranatha! Come Lord Jesus, Come!

[Indiana]

Toledo Quote

- I have given 35 years of my life to follow the Lord Jesus in the local churches. To learn something of the hidden, dirty things of the Living Stream Ministry office has served as a discouragement to me. Especially as it comes at a time when that office is causing such open disruption amongst the churches. Right now there are divisions caused by LSM in hundreds of local churches, including more than a half dozen churches in which I have personally labored.

….I came to this site because I was looking for some help in how to go on, and how to care for those brothers who are meeting with me. Instead I got the parsing of sentences, deliberate misunderstanding, and a focus on the misdeeds of the past. – my emphasis


- I received an email this week from a quarantined brother in the Far East who I had referred to recently in a post. He had been quite perplexed over a year ago by LSM’s divisive behavior, but was also helped to understand that they have a long history of such behavior. Instead of being critical of “the focus on the misdeeds of the past”, he was thankful to know and to understand the track record. He was also released to minister Christ and build up the Body, free from a program, and focus on a man and a ministry and the control of brother Wee, and according to the leading of the Holy Spirit. A few months ago he and Don Hardy visited underground gatherings in China. Don, at 77 years old, said it was the most enjoyment of Christ he has had in his life.

Johnny's email - Dear Bro.Steve Isitt....praise the Lord! in His U.S.A.(Unique Sovereign Authority) i met a bro. from california today for dinner...we BOTH have a same feeling that the "LSM" really 'destroy' the LR.....too sad, now lots of BS family members are meeting in many different 'places' thru out the globe...what we need is JUST PRAY....HE will build His Church.

We suggest you schedule to come on 20th April,2009 to join my college graduation ceremony and the launching of the Book written by sis. Jane Chen, where Br. Don will be present as well....and after the celebrations, we go to the North and Thailand to visit the saints before we fly to TAIWN/HongKong and enter China thru Shenzhen/Macau...then we go 'in depth' the mainland with the local brothers there...BUT ONLY supplying CHRIST. Amen.

much prayer needed.
JC

Johnny had attended a conference recently with Titus in Taiwan and about 100 quarantined brothers in the Far East.

[Toledo]

Originally Posted by Indiana

He had been quite perplexed over a year ago by LSM’s divisive behavior, but was also helped to understand that they have a long history of such behavior. Instead of being critical of “the focus on the misdeeds of the past”, he was thankful to know and to understand the track record. He was also released to minister Christ and build up the Body, free from a program, and focus on a man and a ministry and the control of brother Wee, and according to the leading of the Holy Spirit.

Please do not misunderstand me. I realize how important it is to be set free from the chains of the LSM in every aspect of its ministry and control. For that setting free, few things are quite so helpful as the realization of the series of unrepented unrighteous deeds that issued from that source.

I guess the point of my musings is that having now learned of the sins and errors of the past, and having thus been set free from the control of the Local Church Denomination and its ministry office, how then do we proceed? It is not enough to rehash again and again the errors of the LSM, I got to know that (or some of that) already. Having seen it, I don't need to be constantly reminded of it. What I need is a view for the future.

I am not prepared to believe before the Lord that I've wasted 35 years of labor in the word, in the gospel, with the saints, building up in love. I don't feel content just to drop everything and go back to being a Presbyterian or a Pentecostal. Nor do I care to go on with any sort of remaining entanglement in the Recovery falsely so-called.

I do appreciate your remarks above: "released to minister Christ and build up the Body, free from a program, and focus on a man and a ministry and the control of brother Wee, and according to the leading of the Holy Spirit."

That may well be the sort of word I have been looking for.

[Indiana]

Toledo shared,

“I do appreciate your remarks above: "released to minister Christ and build up the Body, free from a program, and focus on a man and a ministry and the control of brother Wee, and according to the leading of the Holy Spirit."”That may well be the sort of word I have been looking for.”


- I like this experience and testimony by brother Johnny also; My sense is that he and Don Hardy could be overcomers; seriously, brothers; they are not caught up; they just move……….and they do so in love.


They are exposing to me. They are both relentless, Don counting his days, and Johnny, denying status and wealth in laying down his life for.................

[Suannehill]

Originally Posted by Toledo

...

I am not prepared to believe before the Lord that I've wasted 35 years of labor in the word, in the gospel, with the saints, building up in love. I don't feel content just to drop everything and go back to being a Presbyterian or a Pentecostal. Nor do I care to go on with any sort of remaining entanglement in the Recovery falsely so-called...

Great summary Toledo!
That's a feeling from many. I only want to rehash that stuff to help someone else.

[Hope]

Brother Toledo,

The future is bright. Remember Ps. 66:12. You did not waste your time. Yes, there was plenty that was not profitable. But the best is to come. How about I come see you some time and we can laugh and cry together at the same time?

We are this morning just a few minutes away from gathering. A sister just called and let me know she is bringing three unbelieving friends. What glorious complications. We just started a Lord's Day meeting in Durham. (For a long time we drove 30 minutes to Raleigh.) Now, we have three old local churchers, several younger couples at various stages and new unbelievers coming. Too bad the MWDR or whatever it is does not fit the need. We will just have to look to our Lord to care for all. Of course if you were here visiting, we would have your wonderful supply. I know, just a dream, as you Ohio boys don't come this far south.

Hope, Don Rutledge

A believer in Christ Jesus who is seeking to become a true disciple.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Toledo

Please do not misunderstand me. I realize how important it is to be set free from the chains of the LSM in every aspect of its ministry and control. For that setting free, few things are quite so helpful as the realization of the series of unrepented unrighteous deeds that issued from that source.

I guess the point of my musings is that having now learned of the sins and errors of the past, and having thus been set free from the control of the Local Church Denomination and its ministry office, how then do we proceed? It is not enough to rehash again and again the errors of the LSM, I got to know that (or some of that) already. Having seen it, I don't need to be constantly reminded of it. What I need is a view for the future.

I am not prepared to believe before the Lord that I've wasted 35 years of labor in the word, in the gospel, with the saints, building up in love. I don't feel content just to drop everything and go back to being a Presbyterian or a Pentecostal. Nor do I care to go on with any sort of remaining entanglement in the Recovery falsely so-called.

I do appreciate your remarks above: "released to minister Christ and build up the Body, free from a program, and focus on a man and a ministry and the control of brother Wee, and according to the leading of the Holy Spirit."

That may well be the sort of word I have been looking for.

----------------------------------------------

I have a request - mostly for Toledo - but others can chime in as well.

I would like permission to move this post and make it a discussion starter thread on the board entitled "Oh Lord, where do we go from here".

"What I need is a view for the future" - I really, really appreciate the honesty here. This is what we ALL want. Nobody likes stepping into the unknown, especially us oldies but goodies out here. (we're kinda set in our ways ya know) And nobody likes the idea that they have wasted decades of their life. Yet we also don't want to go back to something or some place which we consider to be in error from the truth.

Are we all simply "between a rock and hard place" with nowhere to go? Since we can't actually change the past or turn the clock back we are stuck to deal with reality (darn-darn, I hate that). This is where the DISCUSSION part comes into play. This is why this forum is called LocalChurchDISUSSIONS.com! If I wanted to just blast everybody with my personal opinions (even though they're the best), I could have saved myself a lot of heartache, time and expense by setting up one of those one-sided blogs and then just rant away.

In short, my hope is that so many of the threads here will develop into places where we find ourselves talking WITH each other more then talking AT each other (there is a difference...I think) I can talk at you....you can talk at me...but it's not nearly as profitable (or fun) as when we talk with each other. I consider this post by Toledo an excellent example of somebody wanted to talk WITH us, and not AT us.

Of course this forum will also allow for other kinds of postings as well.

Ok, off my soapbox.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Toledo

I guess the point of my musings is that having now learned of the sins and errors of the past, and having thus been set free from the control of the Local Church Denomination and its ministry office, how then do we proceed? It is not enough to rehash again and again the errors of the LSM, I got to know that (or some of that) already. Having seen it, I don't need to be constantly reminded of it. What I need is a view for the future.

Toledo,

I'm sure this board is not the sum total of the fellowship you are having now, but if it is, you are probably going to get a larger ratio of LSM bashing than you need. That's a big part of what goes on here, because people are working out their feelings and beliefs about that group and that takes being frank about their failings. If the bashing seems repetitive it's because some haven't gotten through it yet, or there are new people who need to hear it for the first time.

As to going on, that's a broad subject. I mean, basically it means living the Christian life. It means following the Lord from wherever you happen to be, whether it's in prison, getting over the death of a loved one, or coming out of a overwhelming group. In all cases we have to reach out to God and look to Him for answers. That's the only formula.

God's calling to all of us is the same--to let Him rule our lives and to be his ambassadors. We have to do that from wherever we find ourselves. We don't need a perfect "church life" to do it. Often we must do it in the context of a very imperfect church life. But God is looking for people to, in the midst of the chaos which is human existence, to be lights for him.

For years after leaving the LC, I tried to impose LC rules on myself in the churches I joined. There were two aspect of this: One was seeking the stamp of approval of leadership (to be "under" and "one"), the other was seeking to "build the church" (which meant being focused on having a ministry among the members). This always led to frustration.

Finally I realized I needed to drop my old concept of service happening within the context of a church and for a church and just serve wherever I could. I regularly meet with some guys, some who attend my church and some who don't. When we get together we just fellowship and minister. I don't think about whether I'm being "one" with the church. I just minister as best I can. My pastor has no idea what I'm doing and I'm sure that in the sense of stamping me with approval he couldn't care less. Everything seems to work out fine, and the meeting is being richly blessed. I know the Lord is with us and I know the church is being built, His church that is.

In other words, lift up your eyes, the fields are white for harvest. I don't think the Lord is that concerned that we are operating under the proper authority channels in his Body, as the old LC canard goes. There are plenty of opportunities to serve, so many people in need of ministry. We just need to jump in. That's how to go on.

[Toledo]

Originally Posted by Igzy

For years after leaving the LC, I tried to impose LC rules on myself in the churches I joined. There were two aspect of this: One was seeking the stamp of approval of leadership (to be "under" and "one"), the other was seeking to "build the church" (which meant being focused on having a ministry among the members). This always led to frustration.

This are somethings that I read here a lot, but as of yet do not understand. So, I suppose I should just go ahead and ask: Where do these so-called "LC rules" come from? I frankly have not heard of them.

1) Why is it that you need "the stamp of approval of leadership". What does that have to do with the practice of the church that we see in the bible? Why can't you just love the Lord, read the word, and care for the saints?

2) Since when does seeking to "build the church" mean being focused on having a ministry among the members? Having a ministry is worlds away from fellowship and care among the brothers.

I was taught that the church is something of life that proceeds out from the head, Christ. I am not familiar with the idea of having to have "a ministry" among the members, and needing the approval of the "leadership" to do so. No one has ever forbidden me to preach the gospel or kept me from reading the word and caring for the saints.

I find a lot of complaints against the idea of the local church on the ground of oneness, but usually the complaints seem to be based on improper teachings or practices taken from the old LSM churches, rather than on what the bible teaches.

Originally Posted by Igzy

I don't think about whether I'm being "one" with the church.

Yet for me, oneness is the primary issue: "Endeavor to keep the oneness of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace".

I exercise to receive and fellowship with any and every believer whom I meet. It is not unusual for there to be some strife among the various saints, but I am forced -- in order to maintain the oneness of the Spirit -- to let go of my preferences, favorite teachings and practices in order to facilitate the fellowship. In my understanding of the ground of oneness, I cannot insist that the other drop his preferences. The requirement is firstly upon me: " If it be possible, as much as in you lieth, be at peace with all men." That's what the ground of locality has always meant to me -- it has to include every born again believer in the city (heck, probably everyone in driving distance...!).

I confess, of course, that I've allowed the accretions from "the Ministry" to affect me over the years. I've struggled to be one with the office more than I've struggled to maintain a oneness with all the saints in my city. I may have had a lot of help, but the failure is mine. Now I am looking to reach out, seeking to find and fellowship with any and all who believe in our most excellent Lord Jesus.

[Hope]

Toledo,
It has been over 20 years since I was in and around the LSM local churches. When I left, I left, disappeared to the desert. Since I have come back on line, I too have wondered at times what are they talking about ie “local church rules.” As I was leaving, I did realize that there were many different understandings for various terms and practices.

ONENESS:
Some have the understanding you expressed.
Some meant uniformity.
Some meant one with the mission of the “ministry.”
Some meant one with the legacy of WN or with the legacy of “the Recovery.”

Igzy has put into clear words what I realized was going on in some Local Churches and definitely with the LSM cadre. In the Texas area, there were two men who were very extreme and promoted this kind of thought, Ray Graver and James Barber. Take my word for it, the church in Houston and the church in O K City reflected what Igzy has described. When you sat down with James or Ray, they did not talk about “the joy of the Lord,” or “the sweet fellowship” etc. They rather were constantly on the prowl for anyone who was not in line with the program and their leadership. They classified everyone according to who was carrying out the official program versus who was acting on their own.

I have noticed that at least 90%+ of those from the “Texas” area who have expressed their hurt and extreme disillusionment were from one or both of these two churches and then add Irving where Ray ended up. Did none of the other places have problems? Of course not. We all had systemic problems and bad influence from head quarters.

On the other forum I inquired by PM of "Thankful" if she had been in either the church in Houston or O K City as the experience she described matched what I had known of those two places. She was quite surprised as she felt she had kept her identity secret. She had but she had clearly described the kind of things that could have gone on under Ray or James. It turns out that I was right on and she had been in both of those places and only in those places except for conferences etc.

I personally have come out of the desert and the joy of the Lord is my strength. I share that to encourage us all.

Hope, Don Rutledge
A believer in Christ Jesus who is seeking to become a true disciple.

[SpeakersCorner]

Did you all catch this article in Time: "Finding Jesus in London"? It begins:

James Mumford is a well-dressed 27-year-old from the posh London neighborhood of Pimlico. He holds degrees in philosophy from Oxford and Yale and, like many of Britain's elite, spent a post-graduate stint working in London's finance industry. But tonight he wants to talk about how he came to accept the Lord Jesus Christ into his heart. "I don't mind talking about my faith," he says, sheepishly. "But it's a touch embarrassing. Just don't brand me as a mindless evangelical."

That peculiarly British reticence may be one reason that an unexpected spiritual awakening among London's high society has gone unnoticed in recent years. Long considered an aggressively secular city, London has quietly become one of Britain's most Christian areas, going from the least observant region in Britain in 1979 to the second most observant today.

You can read the whole thing at
http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...rss-topstories

As the Beatles once sang, "I've got a feeling, a feeling deep inside (oh yeah)" and that feeling is that winds of the Spirit are stirring in cemetery lands. Blow on, O Holy Spirit!


SC

[Indiana]

A reason I keep posting on matters of the past is for new ones or elders who venture onto the forum. Or for current members to read again and become more deeply impressed – each time we can see something more. We need to learn and know our past well so that we can determine our direction more clearly, for ourselves and for one another. We should not be ignorant of Satan’s wiles.

Once in a while I hear from someone who has read my writings on the forum, but they do not post; so forum members don’t know that they might be reading our posts. These seekers are from different parts of the country or the world. Two of them from the US are responsible ones who meet with elders in local, regional, and international meetings, including Whistler. One of the them has been following the forum(s) for about 6 years. Both brothers have been on the phone with me and I have prayed with both. Certain elders’ wives have read on the forum(s). A professor from CA called me and prayed with me, another professor from the East Coast wrote to me and wanted to translate Deviating from the Path into Mandarin, which did not take place. He was very thankful for the writings I have provided, as are most who contact me. The brother travels in China for his job and meets with saints there. He knows Johnny, who I spoke of yesterday, and who also travels in China on his job. My impression is that both brothers mingle with many saints in China, and word spreads.

And, I was told recently that the blending brothers ask about me when they come to Bellevue/Seattle for a conference. They do have some exposure to writings on the forum. Something others already might have read, a blending brother might be reading for their first time.

For these reasons, I continue to post on matters of the past, matters that still have significant effect on us today.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Toledo

I confess, of course, that I've allowed the accretions from "the Ministry" to affect me over the years. I've struggled to be one with the office more than I've struggled to maintain a oneness with all the saints in my city.

Toledo, thanks for sharing this. Please accept my apology for my generalizing/stereotyping of elders.
Often my thought had been elders strive to be more one with the LSM office and less with the locality. To the point I spent years keeping my thoughts and feelings inside. That anything not according to the flow of LSM had no or little interest.
I'm not talking about some of the past Ohio, Indiana, and myself have brought up, but basic struggles. For example seeking full time employment instead of attending FTTA.
In a roundabout way I am touched for your opening up regarding your struggles with the office and your locality. I realize if you felt this way, there are many other brothers with a similar predicament.

Terry

[Indiana]

I received the following email Dec 20 from a brother who I think is from India, but living now in USA. I do have his permission to post the following statements he made, and also to use his name.

His was the longest email, showing how much he has on his heart. I numbered most of his points, or statements, for reference. I hope any who would want to field his concerns will do so in love, as he has also shown us in his youth and in his desperate pleas and concern. I just post here, at this time, the last of his pouring out of his heart.

.................................................. .....................

33. Brother, I, being in my early 20s can at least see some foolishness in us, ...the matters of blind war?, blind conspiracy?, .. Oh my heart goes out to you and to all the saints...

34. There are a couple of million of saints in the church-life, but are not concerned with it.. praise the LORD : ) Not all the saints would write to you and to many of the others who left the church when she was week, when she needed you all the most, these are my convictions voice and not of any conferences or messages, not the words of the Living Stream's serving saints but mine ... the voice which is in agony and which is week and desperate to call out to all the sheep, all the saints, to all those who are not fed, not valued, not looked upon ..

35. Oh brother Steve, may I ask you to please take out your words off the internet and your mind --- and will you join the Spirit of the God, will you fast on God alone, will you be able to leave USA and visit some lone place, to have a reflection, a reflection on your life and on what have you done so far? the damages you have caused to the innocent saints and to the whole Body!! Will you leave this country or wherever you are to just step back a little and spend some time with the LORD, serving some saints in some small locality may be...

36. I don't know, you need to ask the LORD, but brother, I do know that I do love you and many of the saints in the recovery ... the blindness is not one sided, but is two fold on each eye, if the soul is void of love!

I again lost my pin-pointed message but this is what I had, I gave you brother. This could be a waste of time to you, ...then please forgive me. Or if you saw my heart and the message, ...God bless you brother. I'll still love you. Brother, I have many things to say, as much as it may become like your journal on the internet... but I do not seek to do so ...all I wished was that let my heart talk to your heart.

O Lord, Jesus. O Lord, O Lord Jesus.

Yours in Christ
Your innocent brother
Sal

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Toledo

I confess, of course, that I've allowed the accretions from "the Ministry" to affect me over the years. I've struggled to be one with the office more than I've struggled to maintain a oneness with all the saints in my city. I may have had a lot of help, but the failure is mine. Now I am looking to reach out, seeking to find and fellowship with any and all who believe in our most excellent Lord Jesus.

I come from a place that was noted for being particularly zealous ... firstly for the "ways" of Anaheim, and secondly for the many "ways" proceeding from Cleveland. As a deacon, whose primary responsibility was to assist the elders in their "present" burden, yet not always privileged to receive the same spiritual nourishment which accompanied many of these new "ways," I was often in the hardest of places. At times I felt my life consisted of only one thing -- all the "accretions" which Toledo referred to. I needed a dictionary for this word, since "accretions" sounded to me like some creatures out of Star Trek.

Each of us has endured our own little version of "LC world." Toledo makes it all sound so easy with comments like, "Why is it that you need "the stamp of approval of leadership". What does that have to do with the practice of the church that we see in the bible? Why can't you just love the Lord, read the word, and care for the saints?" It all sounds so good, and looking at Toledo's Avatar, you can understand how he would survive just about any environment thrown his way. But ... most of us have not found things to be "so easy."

Let me give a little "for instance." About 6 years ago, all the GLA workers were instructed (yes, required) by TC to visit Malaysia to see the latest "move of the Lord" and to bring back "the blessing" of the "new ecology." I remember sitting with my wife in what was probably our last Video Training, and the elders returned. The video message that day was sobering, and afterwards we gave the brothers the floor to share of their trip. They proceeded to teach us some "Polynesian dance ditty," which put my dear wife into spiritual turmoil. Oh the look on her face! It took me literally weeks to restore her. Due to what she considered inappropriate and childish behavior, her respect for the elders took a serious hit. Meanwhile, the brothers were like "kids opening presents on Christmas morning." Oh, btw ... what's wrong with sister so-n-so?

Thus was much of my life serving in the LC. It did not consist of just "loving the Lord, reading the word, and caring for the saints." Sure we talked about those, and I'm not saying they were not a part of my life, but there was so much more ... all the many "extras" ... which consumed precious time and energy, and more importantly "shaped our soul." It is these many "extras" which make things difficult.

In a recent post, Toledo made the comment, "I don't feel content just to drop everything and go back to being a Presbyterian or a Pentecostal." These sort of characterizations are part of the difficulty which I face. We have in recent history received much spiritual help and nourishment from those "Pentecostals." They have a joy and faith and love and a simplicity in Jesus Christ which I had not seen in the LC for perhaps 20 years. Yet ... I have so many "extras" which frustrate. It's not easy for a professed "judgaholic" to just "go on," as we used to say.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Toledo

This are somethings that I read here a lot, but as of yet do not understand. So, I suppose I should just go ahead and ask: Where do these so-called "LC rules" come from? I frankly have not heard of them.

1) Why is it that you need "the stamp of approval of leadership".

2) Since when does seeking to "build the church" mean being focused on having a ministry among the members? Yet for me, oneness is the primary issue: "Endeavor to keep the oneness of the Spirit in the uniting bond of peace".

Toledo,

I posted what I did because you seemed to be saying that you were struggling to find a way to "go on." So I posted some of the things which prevented me from "going on" and which by God's grace I've overcome. (Realize I grew up in Texas.)

I agree 100% with your post so it sounds to me you know exactly how to go on. So what do you think is preventing you from "going on."

The "local church" if it exists is really simple. It's just believers in your proximity. That's the reality of the church. So if I meet a Christian in Starbucks who I've never seen before, he or she is just as precious and important to be as ones I know. And our fellowship is instantly as vital, at least as far as I'm concerned. I don't care if he or she has the same "vision" as me. What's important is they are the Lord's. So with that Christian, I experience the local church.

Oneness is of the Spirit, not of being one with elders. Now, I submit to my elders, because the Bible commands me to. But submitting to elders is an expression of oneness, it doesn't create oneness. Some other Christian might not feel the need to submit to the elders I do. That's their business, not mine.

The Lord is working through my church and I know my elders are in touch with Him. I listen to their burdens and pray about them. But I don't automatically jettison burdens the Lord has given me simply because they are different from the elders. However, I have seen the Lord not bless some effort I was interested in because he really did want me to take a different way, which just happened to be what the elders were burdened about.

A dramatic example of this was when the Lord showed me that I should stop trying to educate people on "the building of the church." My vision was highly influenced by WN and WL and the Lord finally got me to realize it was simply out of whack. The reason was it was too inward focused, it tended to make people think in terms of "our group," rather than people in general, both believers and unbelievers. Now the Lord has helped me to see all believers as the same, and all unbelievers as precious to Him. There is no such things as "bad material" which again focusing on "building the church" can tend to make you think in terms of.

Anyway, these are just some thoughts about how the Lord has brought me along. Blessings, Toledo.

Igzy

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Each of us has endured our own little version of "LC world." Toledo makes it all sound so easy with comments like, "Why is it that you need "the stamp of approval of leadership". What does that have to do with the practice of the church that we see in the bible? Why can't you just love the Lord, read the word, and care for the saints?" It all sounds so good, and looking at Toledo's Avatar, you can understand how he would survive just about any environment thrown his way. But ... most of us have not found things to be "so easy."

Yes Ohio. Each of have endured something and probably can recount an experience where "the stamp of approval of leadership" was more imprtant than loving the Lord, reading the Word, and caring for the saints. For me it was when PSRP became the latest flow. It was more important for the "latest flow" to be pushed. This practice became more important than loving the Lord, reading the Word, or caring for the saints. My thought in the mid-90's was not embracing the latest flow is to recieve the stamp of disapproval from the local leadership.

Terry

[Cal]

In my experience, old LC concepts can really prevent you from freely enjoying Christ with other Christians (including Pentecostals and Presbyterians). The problem is not them, however, it's you. It's your limited concepts holding back the Spirit, not theirs.

Ohio calls it being a judgaholic, but it's not random judging. It's really about having a preset mindset that everyone is wrong but you, and that everyone needs to get on your page. In other words, pride.

How could such a person have any fellowship except with likeminded people? And yet he sees his lack of ability to fellowship with other Christians as evidence of their lack, not his. In other words, blindness.

[Toledo]

Originally Posted by Igzy

So I posted some of the things which prevented me from "going on" and which by God's grace I've overcome. (Realize I grew up in Texas.)

I understand. Some of Hope's recent comments have clarified what Texas was like.

Originally Posted by Igzy

The "local church" if it exists is really simple. It's just believers in your proximity. That's the reality of the church. So if I meet a Christian in Starbucks who I've never seen before, he or she is just as precious and important to be as ones I know. And our fellowship is instantly as vital, at least as far as I'm concerned. I don't care if he or she has the same "vision" as me. What's important is they are the Lord's. So with that Christian, I experience the local church.

I agree.

Originally Posted by Igzy

Oneness is of the Spirit, not of being one with elders.

I agree.

Originally Posted by Igzy

Now, I submit to my elders, because the Bible commands me to. But submitting to elders is an expression of oneness, it doesn't create oneness. Some other Christian might not feel the need to submit to the elders I do. That's their business, not mine.

I don't even think that submitting to the elders is necessarily a requirement of oneness. My children are still my children even when they are disobedient...

Originally Posted by Igzy

The Lord is working through my church and I know my elders are in touch with Him. I listen to their burdens and pray about them. But I don't automatically jettison burdens the Lord has given me simply because they are different from the elders.

All too often brothers will drop something the Lord has given them because they receive no encouragement from their elders (or worse -- their elders actually discourage them!). This has been a great failure among us.

Originally Posted by Igzy

A dramatic example of this was when the Lord showed me that I should stop trying to educate people on "the building of the church." My vision was highly influenced by WN and WL and the Lord finally got me to realize it was simply out of whack. The reason was it was too inward focused, it tended to make people think in terms of "our group," rather than people in general, both believers and unbelievers.

I don't know whether this came from Watchman Nee, or Witness Lee, or the LSM ministry office, or whether it resulted from the way we used to meet, but it surely happened. In my understanding, the local church is every born again believer in the city, but in my practice (and perhaps even in my heart...) the local church was that poor huddling bunch of saints who met with me.

Originally Posted by Igzy

There is no such things as "bad material" which again focusing on "building the church" can tend to make you think in terms of.

I can remember the time when Campus Crusade didn't think I was "good material". They were more interested in "key personnel". I suppose that is a result of wanting to build an organization rather than simply ministering Christ to all who are open to receive.

Originally Posted by Igzy

Anyway, these are just some thoughts about how the Lord has brought me along. Blessings, Toledo.

Igzy

Yup, much appreciated.

[Hope]

Dear Administrator,


Good thread. Exactly my feelings.


While on the one hand, I believe we need to consider the past, more importantly is the matter before us. Let us get on with our future in Christ.


I have been seeking to know more perfectly the Will of God for me personally and in general for His administration in this age.

Acts 18:27
But when Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately.
Acts 20:20
how I did not shrink from declaring to you anything that was profitable, and teaching you publicly and from house to house,

Acts 20:27
"For I did not shrink from declaring to you the whole purpose of God.


I am very surprised that I would get involved in something like an Internet forum and even more surprise that I would be writing a history of my experiences in the local churches. (I am about to release around 75 pages of history but a development has occurred which has put the release on hold. In addition, this forum and other sources have caused me to consider adding particular lines in the development of the story.)

Why am I here? Why am I writing the history? Brethren where I meet have inquired. My wife has asked me. I have asked myself. The reason or burden is very simple.

I. The Lord's judgment is coming on the LSM just as Jehu descended on Jezebel. Note the reason that the Lord sent Jehu, 2 Kings 9:6-8, "And you shall strike the house of Ahab your master, that I may avenge the blood of My servants the prophets, and the blood of all the servants of the LORD, at the hand of Jezebel. For the whole house of Ahab shall perish, and I will cut off from Ahab every male person both bond and free in Israel."

I am very concerned for the brothers in the LSM and hope many or at least some could repent and save themselves. At the very least, their appearance at the judgment seat of Christ will not be good if they fail to repent in this age.

A huge sin of the LSM is to silence and kill the Lord's speaking through the many oracles of God. (See the word to Jehu.)

1 Peter 4:11, Whoever speaks, let him speak, as it were, the utterances of God;
Rev 1:20, "As for the mystery of the seven stars which you saw in My right hand, and the seven golden lampstands : the seven stars are the messengers of the seven churches, and the seven lampstands are the seven churches.

Revelation 2:1 "To the messenger of the church in Ephesus write:The One who holds the seven stars in His right hand, the One who walks among the seven golden lampstands , says this:


II. I am heart stricken for those who have been stumbled. Romans chapter 14 is way too clear. If you usurp the conscience of others you will stumble them and may destroy the work of Christ in them.

Rom 14:13, Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this — not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother's way.

Rom 14:15, Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died.

Rom 14:20, Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food.

Rom 14:22-23, The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

I am very much concerned that the stumbled saints be given some chance to realize that it was not necessarily them. It was not necessarily their doing that they were hurt and may have been stumbled. The Lord can recover them back to their joy and walk with Him. Perhaps my little history would serve as a balm to heal some wounds.

III. In addition, there is much to learn for the future. The Lord did do some wonderful things among us but it was cut short. There were problems in our teachings. Some were misaimings. Some were incorrect. Some fell short of the full purpose of God. There were practices which offended the Lord and the Body of Christ and we need to take an honest look and learn for the future.

IV. I would like to preserve the memory of some of the wonderful works of God which we experienced and lived. During my time there, 1965-1988, there was a most unusual group of absolute dedicated believers. Toledo and Ohio were not your typical consecrated evangelical Christian who could make two short meetings per week, give 5% of their income and sit on the church board. When I visited the Far East Churches in 1967, several of us noted how the dear saints there were not nearly as dedicated and burning. We understood that part of Brother Lee's burden for the trip was for them to catch some of the fire from the USA.

Finally, some of the leaders and regular saints may have had bad motives. Some may have been fleshly. Some were surely soulish and natural. Some were sinful. There is a limit to the profit in dwelling on these matters but it does need to be touched due to the reverence given to leaders and traditions.

I do like the thought of this thread and commend the administrator for his wisdom. May the Lord head us all up and this forum be something that will bring Him honor and nurture us all.

Hope, Don Rutledge

A believer in Christ Jesus who is seeking to be a true disciple.

[Toledo]

Originally Posted by Ohio

In a recent post, Toledo made the comment, "I don't feel content just to drop everything and go back to being a Presbyterian or a Pentecostal." These sort of characterizations are part of the difficulty which I face. We have in recent history received much spiritual help and nourishment from those "Pentecostals." They have a joy and faith and love and a simplicity in Jesus Christ which I had not seen in the LC for perhaps 20 years. Yet ... I have so many "extras" which frustrate. It's not easy for a professed "judgaholic" to just "go on," as we used to say.

Sorry, I didn't mean to make a "characterization". Rather I was simply stating a fact. I used to be a Presbyterian. I grew up in a congregation where the gospel was not preached and the name of the Lord Jesus was not mentioned, and where it was considered a shame to preach the gospel or to claim to be "saved".

After I believed in Jesus (no thanks to those Presbyterians), I became a pentecostal. I agree that there was much joy and faith and love there. However, there was also a gross ignorance of bible truth that kept so many in darkness and in the slavery of the law.

Forgive me if I came across as condemning any and all Presbyterians or Pentecostals. Rather I was saying that I don't want to go back to the sort of experiences that I had before I came to the church.

Yet I also agree with Ohio that it is all the "extras" that are killing me and those with me. Thus I am here, struggling with you brothers, to determine just what is reality, what is Christ, and what is a life-killing "extra". I have long since jettisoned the HWMR. The practice of PSRP never got off the ground among us. Sometimes pray-reading and calling on the name of the Lord is a help; other times it seems a hindrance. We've been enjoying some new songs that our young people have brought in, yet find that many of the songs in our hymnal are still quite good.

How did that Bob Seger song go?

Ive got so much more to think about
Deadlines and commitments
What to leave in, what to leave out

and again:

And the years rolled slowly past
And I found myself alone,
Surrounded by strangers I thought were my friends
I found myself further and further from my home.
And I guess I lost my way
There were oh so many roads,
I was living to run and running to live
Never worried about paying or even how much I owed

and again:

Wish I didnt know now what I didnt know then...

Dag! We oughta put that one in the hymnal!

[Toledo]

Originally Posted by Hope

I am very concerned for the brothers in the LSM and hope many or at least some could repent and save themselves. At the very least, their appearance at the judgment seat of Christ will not be good if they fail to repent in this age.

"And the watchman told saying, He came to them, and does not return. And the driving is like the driving of Don the son of Hope; for he driveth furiously."

[Toledo]

Originally Posted by Indiana

A reason I keep posting on matters of the past is for new ones or elders who venture onto the forum. Or for current members to read again and become more deeply impressed – each time we can see something more. We need to learn and know our past well so that we can determine our direction more clearly, for ourselves and for one another. We should not be ignorant of Satan’s wiles.
(snip)
For these reasons, I continue to post on matters of the past, matters that still have significant effect on us today.

Yes, I have been greatly helped by your postings. I think the knowledge of our history is vital. The way you have exposed the sins and improprieties of the ministry office has been eye-opening.

I am only concerned that so many seem to insist on interpreting everything as though we are still in the same errors of the past. Somehow we need to learn from the mistakes (and blatant sins) of the past, while maintaining that which is scriptural. It is hard to know where to put the knife...

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Toledo

How did that Bob Segar song go?

I've got so much more to think about
Deadlines and commitments
What to leave in, what to leave out

And the years rolled slowly past
And I found myself alone,
Surrounded by strangers I thought were my friends
I found myself further and further from my home.
And I guess I lost my way
There were oh so many roads,
I was living to run and running to live
Never worried about paying or even how much I owed

Wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then...

We oughta put that one in the hymnal!

OK, Toledo, Here's your chance:

"Against the Wind," ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RiuRdjESiC4

[Hope]

Toledo writing to Indiana:

Originally Posted by Toledo

Yes, I have been greatly helped by your postings. I think the knowledge of our history is vital. The way you have exposed the sins and improprieties of the ministry office has been eye-opening.

I am only concerned that so many seem to insist on interpreting everything as though we are still in the same errors of the past. Somehow we need to learn from the mistakes (and blatant sins) of the past, while maintaining that which is scriptural. It is hard to know where to put the knife...

Toledo,

Well said. I wish I could be so clear and brief and to the point.

But I have to say a little more.

During the days of Stalin, the soviets had a justice system which was very effective in catching criminals and dissidents. If you knew the general whereabouts of the criminal just arrest everybody in that general place and time frame and you can be confident you got the guilty party. Herod tried the same thing when he had all the male children slaughtered two years and under who were in Bethlehem and its surroundings.

Also regarding Jehu, when he got around to the prophets of Baal he was careful and discerning. 2 Kings 10:23, Then Jehu and Jehonadab son of Recab went into the temple of Baal. Jehu said to the ministers of Baal, "Look around and see that no servants of the LORD are here with you — only ministers of Baal."

Some on the forums have seemed to want to kill everyone then they know they got those prophets of Baal. One can be absolute and ruthless and careful and discerning.

Can you imagine the problems for Jehu if he had slaughtered some of the Lord's prophets and servants.

Hope, Don Rutledge

A believer in Christ Jesus who is seeking to be a true disciple.

PS Toledo, I have heard the hoof beats and the cracking of Jehu's whip. I have smelled the horses and heard the whirl of the chariot wheels. It is coming.

[Toledo]

Originally Posted by Hope

During the days of Stalin, the soviets had a justice system which was very effective in catching criminals and dissidents. If you knew the general whereabouts of the criminal just arrest everybody in that general place and time frame and you can be confident you got the guilty party. Herod tried the same thing when he had all the male children slaughtered two years and under who were in Bethlehem and its surroundings.

Buncha idolaters... :rollingeyes2:

[Toledo]

Originally Posted by Ohio

About 6 years ago, all the GLA workers were instructed (yes, required) by TC to visit Malaysia to see the latest "move of the Lord" and to bring back "the blessing" of the "new ecology." I remember sitting with my wife in what was probably our last Video Training, and the elders returned. The video message that day was sobering, and afterwards we gave the brothers the floor to share of their trip. They proceeded to teach us some "Polynesian dance ditty," which put my dear wife into spiritual turmoil. Oh the look on her face! It took me literally weeks to restore her. Due to what she considered inappropriate and childish behavior, her respect for the elders took a serious hit. Meanwhile, the brothers were like "kids opening presents on Christmas morning." Oh, btw ... what's wrong with sister so-n-so?

As I reconsider this post, I think it is a most marvelous example of some of the "extras", and our judgment concerning them.

I, too, went on that trip to Malaysia. It was eye-opening. The churches there had clearly stumbled onto some sort of blessing. The increase in numbers was impressive (meetings more than tripling in size in only a very short time). The joy was palpable. The music was new and fresh. The new ones were lined up to be baptized.

The churches there practiced a genuine "blending" (no, really!). The saints would come together for a picnic or a dinner with saints from other places. There was no need for an anointed "blending brother" (acchhh, ptooey), everyone would dance and sing and talk and fellowship and get to know one another and on and on and on.

But, however, with this caveat, the problem is... nobody could tell us what had caused the revival. I was particularly aware of it, because I was one of the brothers who was going to have to make a report when we got back.

Not many of the saints there had given much thought to what had brought their revival about. They just enjoyed it. We were advised repeatedly that it was the result of their new children's work. Sorry, I didn't buy it.

Then, when we were in Kuching, there was a brother who explained to me what had happened. He told how the saints in a certain locality had come together, confessing their sins and opening their hearts to one another. He went on at length and in great detail. I was so impressed, I went and got another elder with whom I served and brought him to meet with that Malaysian brother the next night. He also was impressed.

The third night I invited some elders and co-workers from a major midwestern locality to come and hear this what this brother had to say. They were impressed as well. We felt that we had put our fingers on the pulse of what was happening there. We were filled with rejoicing. I sat down and wrote a new song in less than ten minutes! We sang that song again and again throughout our trip.

However, Ohio is quite correct. When we returned, we were advised that the new song wouldn't fit our situation. The words needed to be changed and somehow we never got around to singing it again. The heart, the kernel, the center of what we had seen somehow never got out to the saints.

Even so, undaunted (I do not tend to daunt very easily), we began to practice what we had learned in my locality. There was a sister who had been in the church life for over 20 years who had never opened up her home for hospitality. After our fellowship, she began to invite saints over to her home several nights each week. We elders began to meet together to open up our hearts to one another. Our meetings were fresh, new ones were added, our numbers nearly doubled, and the sense of Christ in our meetings was palpable.

Alas that this was damaged by the recent quarantine and concurrent LSM induced local rebellions. Those who had opened up their hearts quickly slammed them shut once again, half the saints went off with a disgruntled co-worker, and we have been left drifting.

Alas, for the distinction between the things that matter and the things that don't -- the "extras" that do not matter at all except to weigh us down and occupy our hearts with things other than Christ.

I still believe in the practice of the local church. I only regret that it is so fragile, so easily damaged, so vulnerable to harm from evil workers, and so easily lost to distractions.

[countmeworthy]

[QUOTE=Ohio;4747]
Each of us has endured our own little version of "LC world." Toledo makes it all sound so easy with comments like, "[COLOR=Indigo][I]

Why is it that you need "the stamp of approval of leadership"

.

For whatever it's WORTH......I'll share my thoughts in my next post which will be a response to Igzy's post. (Do you guys even read my posts? Not to worry...if you don't, I'm not offended. I keep hoping one of the these days the Holy Spirit will release me from these forums. -First I have to figure out if He is keeping me here or if it's my SELF that's keeping me here Sometimes, these things are hard to decipher. )

From Ohio:
..all the GLA workers were instructed (yes, required) by TC to visit Malaysia to see the latest "move of the Lord" and to bring back "the blessing" of the "new ecology

.
...reminds me of the Lakeland Florida Revival of this past summer. I suspect ALMOST everyone here knew nothing about that revival..except MAYBEOBW/Mike H...and maybe Igzy....

It was the talk of much of the Christian world outside the LC and the dead protestant churches ! Some good came out of it but it turned into an embarrising fiasco. Pastors and leaders from all over the world were coming to Lakeland all summer and 'taking back to their cities..the blessings and 'anointed move' from the Lakeland Revival.

The LSM/LC 'movements' are not the only 'movements' on the face of the earth. They're not the ONLY ones claiming 'God's move on the earth today!'.

[Hope]

Originally Posted by Toledo

As I reconsider this post, I think it is a most marvelous example of some of the "extras", and our judgment concerning them.

I, too, went on that trip to Malaysia. It was eye-opening. The churches there had clearly stumbled onto some sort of blessing. The increase in numbers was impressive (meetings more than tripling in size in only a very short time). The joy was palpable. The music was new and fresh. The new ones were lined up to be baptized.

The churches there practiced a genuine "blending" (no, really!). The saints would come together for a picnic or a dinner with saints from other places. There was no need for an anointed "blending brother" (acchhh, ptooey), everyone would dance and sing and talk and fellowship and get to know one another and on and on and on.

But, however, with this caveat, the problem is... nobody could tell us what had caused the revival. I was particularly aware of it, because I was one of the brothers who was going to have to make a report when we got back.
Not many of the saints there had given much thought to what had brought their revival about. They just enjoyed it.

We were advised repeatedly that it was the result of their new children's work. Sorry, I didn't buy it.

This story is a great example of our history for decades. The Lord as the head of the church would bring in a real and fresh move of the Spirit. The "workers" who have the thought that some activity was the cause seek to codify the event. But what about John 3:8, "The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Lord, save us from the co-workers who think it is their job to direct the move of the Spirit.

Then, when we were in Kuching, there was a brother who explained to me what had happened. He told how the saints in a certain locality had come together, confessing their sins and opening their hearts to one another. He went on at length and in great detail. I was so impressed, I went and got another elder with whom I served and brought him to meet with that Malaysian brother the next night. He also was impressed.

The third night I invited some elders and co-workers from a major midwestern locality to come and hear this what this brother had to say. They were impressed as well. We felt that we had put our fingers on the pulse of what was happening there. We were filled with rejoicing. I sat down and wrote a new song in less than ten minutes! We sang that song again and again throughout our trip.

A testimony of the Lord's work in the heart of local saints and the release of Life that was so real it produced a song in the USA brothers. This is the story of the early days. Our early history was not the history of the work of the age but the work of the Spirit where ever He chose to blow.

However, Ohio is quite correct. When we returned, we were advised that the new song wouldn't fit our situation. The words needed to be changed and somehow we never got around to singing it again. The heart, the kernel, the center of what we had seen somehow never got out to the saints.

Even so, undaunted (I do not tend to daunt very easily), we began to practice what we had learned in my locality. There was a sister who had been in the church life for over 20 years who had never opened up her home for hospitality. After our fellowship, she began to invite saints over to her home several nights each week. We elders began to meet together to open up our hearts to one another. Our meetings were fresh, new ones were added, our numbers nearly doubled, and the sense of Christ in our meetings was palpable.

The wind of the Spirit reaches Toledo not the technique of Malaysia. The Lord's work in the heart of a local sister and a mutual fellowship among the local elders without an imposed agenda from afar energizes the church.

Alas that this was damaged by the recent quarantine and concurrent LSM induced local rebellions. Those who had opened up their hearts quickly slammed them shut once again, half the saints went off with a disgruntled co-worker, and we have been left drifting.

Alas, for the distinction between the things that matter and the things that don't -- the "extras" that do not matter at all except to weigh us down and occupy our hearts with things other than Christ.

I still believe in the practice of the local church. I only regret that it is so fragile, so easily damaged, so vulnerable to harm from evil workers, and so easily lost to distractions.

I too believe in the practice of the local church. Oneness is not the major issue of the local church but it is rather the headship of Christ and God's administration of the Mystery. It is the manifestation of the One New Man which is Christ walking the earth again in many places. You can have something you call "oneness" and be without the headship of Christ and the local speaking of Christ as He administers directly and cares for the Golden Lampstands.

This post by Toledo is vital to understand the things that were right in the past and what derailed everything.

Hope, Don Rutledge

A believer in Christ Jesus who is seeking to be a true disciple.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Igzy

In my experience, old LC concepts can really prevent you from freely enjoying Christ with other Christians (including Pentecostals and Presbyterians). The problem is not them, however, it's you. It's your limited concepts holding back the Spirit, not theirs.

It's really about having a preset mindset that everyone is wrong but you, and that everyone needs to get on your page. In other words, pride.

How could such a person have any fellowship except with likeminded people? And yet he sees his lack of ability to fellowship with other Christians as evidence of their lack, not his. In other words, blindness.

Boy Igzy you hit the nail on the RIGHT spot!

I understand EXACTLY what you mean.

Can I entertain you with part of my testimony AGAIN! (BIG GRIN-WINK-WINK)
30 yrs after leaving the LC and wandering in the wilderness because 'there is NOTHING' better 'OUT THERE', I re-dedicated, re-consecrated my life to the LORD.

That was step one.

Step 2.
I began to watch Christian TV and listen to Christian radio.
I needed to get a FEEL of what WAS 'out there'.

Step 3

I earnestly PRAYED for the LORD to lead me to a church, a group of believers who I could be a blessing to and who would be a blessing to me.

Well...The LORD answered my prayer alright but He didn't tell me He was going to burn the preset mindset I thought I DID NOT HAVE about other believers!

Oh my Goodness GRacious!
Little did I know I was going to be so judgmental!!

First it started with the Praise/Worship music..

That was my first hurdle to jump. "Too LOUD..too 'worldly' but the WORDS were awesome.. I WAS willing to lift my hands and open my arms though.

(When we see someone we haven't seen in a while (especially) and we are happy to see them, don't WE open our arms, reaching out to them?) Where in the world did we get the notion to clench our fists and make our arms look like hammers when we would be praying 'strongly' ??? (rolling my eyes here)

And then I began to weep almost uncontrollably at some of the Worship songs. My weeping had NOTHING to do with it being an 'emotional song or service'. I had carried around a LOT of emotional pain ..nothing to do with the LC...it was personal pain. The weeping was part of the Healing process I was experiencing. I was experiencing the Precious Holy Spirit healing me.

Listening to a 'Pastor' not a 'Brother' or 'elder' (as we did back in the day)
speak on the platform...and then referring to him as a pastor! Horror of horrors!
[Just curious... Did the LSM/LC remove the word PASTOR from Ephesians 4:11?
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; ]

I was attending a SERVICE not a MEETING. It feels like a SIN to say you went to a SERVICE!! I was going to 'church' too!!

Most didn't constantly say "Lord Jesus" or 'O LORD!'. Most pray to the FATHER in the Name of Jesus.

WHAT's WRONG with them!!??

A lot of reference is made to the Holy Spirit sometimes called [GULP!] the Holy 'Ghoooooost.' Actually they don't refer to Him like that. They respect the Holy Ghost.

Most pastors don't know who Witness Lee is. Many however do know who Watchman Nee is but don't refer to him much. (Joyce Meyer has though. Imagine my SHOCK when I heard her refer to something Watchman Nee wrote!)

Most are respectful of the pastors/preachers if they have left a particular church. (In this city where I live, there seems to be a lot of church hopping. LOL!!)

The list of MY nonjudgmental..no longer an LCr preset ideas goes on and on..

I also think this is part of the problem most former LCrs cannot regroup. Perhaps I should speak for myself. I don't think I could really meet with former LCrs on a regular basis.

Do former Alcoholics hang out with other Former Alcoholics and talk about their recovery from the days they were alcoholics and wouldn't admit to themselves or others that they were?

We ALL have a pre-programmed mindset and it takes YEARS for it to unravel. We think we don't. But we do.

Case in point: I am still curious WHO from the LC might show up on these forums that I might have known. WHAT does it matter?? Please know, I'm talking out loud to myself. [VBG]

Ok...'nuff said. Thanks for listening/reading.

[Toledo]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Little did I know I was going to be so judgmental!!

First it started with the Praise/Worship music...

Yup, that sounds a lot like the music we use in my locality.

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

(When we see someone we haven't seen in a while (especially) and we are happy to see them, don't WE open our arms, reaching out to them?) Where in the world did we get the notion to clench our fists and make our arms look like hammers when we would be praying 'strongly' ??? (rolling my eyes here)

I would tend to agree with you here, except I have to ask, NOW who's being judgmental...?

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Listening to a 'Pastor' not a 'Brother' or 'elder' (as we did back in the day)
speak on the platform...and then referring to him as a pastor! Horror of horrors!
[Just curious... Did the LSM/LC remove the word PASTOR from Ephesians 4:11?
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; ]

Nope, not in my experience. There are lots of pastors in the various local churches. Just like there are lots of teachers and prophets, and evangelists. However, we don't call someone a pastor just because he takes the lead.

And what's wrong with "brothers" and "elders"? Has someone taken them out of your bible as well?

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I was attending a SERVICE not a MEETING. It feels like a SIN to say you went to a SERVICE!! I was going to 'church' too!!

So you changed your vocabulary a bit to the more traditional one. Fair enough. Whoever told you that was a sin?

And "going to church"? I dunno, it's my understanding that the believers are the church, not some brick building. That's why I don't say "go to church".

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Most didn't constantly say "Lord Jesus" or 'O LORD!'.

Their loss... or has someone removed Romans 10 from your bible, too?

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Most pray to the FATHER in the Name of Jesus.

WHAT's WRONG with them!!??

I dunno, that seems scriptural enough to me. Why do you have a problem with it?

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

A lot of reference is made to the Holy Spirit sometimes called [GULP!] the Holy 'Ghoooooost.' Actually they don't refer to Him like that. They respect the Holy Ghost.

Okay, so they choose to translate the greek text using the archaic word "ghost" rather than the more contemporary word "spirit" -- their call. Hey, if the King James version was good enough for the Apostle Paul, it's good enough for me...

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Most pastors don't know who Witness Lee is.

Lucky them, huh?

"Wish I didn't know now what I didn't know then..."

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Many however do know who Watchman Nee is but don't refer to him much. (Joyce Meyer has though. Imagine my SHOCK when I heard her refer to something Watchman Nee wrote!)

Why would you be shocked? Watchman Nee has been popular in Christianity for years. I read his stuff for several years before I heard of Witness Lee.

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Most are respectful of the pastors/preachers if they have left a particular church. (In this city where I live, there seems to be a lot of church hopping. LOL!!)

Yeah, I used to do that a lot. When there's no satisfaction, you try someplace else...

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

The list of MY nonjudgmental..no longer an LCr preset ideas goes on and on..

Perhaps, but it surely sounds like you've picked up another judgmental list.

There are terrible things wrong with the way the local churches and the LSM office has practiced over the past many years. So far you haven't mentioned any of them. There are things that matter and things that don't. Why be bothered by things that don't matter, but fail to mention the important things?

You wanna pray to the Father? Fine. Go ahead, that's scriptural.

You wanna raise your hands when you pray or sing? Fine. Go ahead, that's scriptural.

You wanna call some man pastor (just because he's taking the lead)? Fine. Go ahead, that's not scriptural, but it's not life-threatening.

You wanna use the King James bible and use Elizabethan English to pray? Fine. The King James bible is a pretty good translation. The language in places is a bit archaic, but for the most part it's fine. I like to use it sometimes myself. But why hast thou a problem with those who prefer a more modern translation?

You wanna watch Christian tv and listen to Christian radio? Fine, that's not a sin. Who said that it was? I don't care for it, but then again, I didn't care for much that's on tv even before I got saved. That's your call. Why do you condemn the brothers who choose not to watch it?

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I also think this is part of the problem most former LCrs cannot regroup. Perhaps I should speak for myself. I don't think I could really meet with former LCrs on a regular basis.

Okay, why not? Are they not also believers? Is there some sort of problem with the blood of Christ, or are you just being judgmental? Keep in mind that many who post on this forum are former local church saints.

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Do former Alcoholics hang out with other Former Alcoholics and talk about their recovery from the days they were alcoholics and wouldn't admit to themselves or others that they were?

Yes, actually, they do. It's called AA -- Alcoholics Anonymous. I've taken many brothers to those meetings over the years. For most, it's the only way they are able to remain sober.

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

We ALL have a pre-programmed mindset and it takes YEARS for it to unravel. We think we don't. But we do.

Good point. We do need to deal with that mindset. It's not enough to change the people and the things that we condemn; we need to change the mindset itself.

Based on what you have written, it would seem you have been very critical, judgmental, and condemning of the brothers in Christianity. You seem to think that is a requirement of the local church life. It isn't. You seem to have condemned things that I never heard condemned (though I do not doubt that some places may have done exactly as you say).

Now, instead of dealing with our judgmental mindset, we simply change the target of our condemnation. Do we really think condemning a brother for calling on the name of the Lord (or not) is proper? Is it really proper to condemn someone for saying "spirit" instead of "ghost"? Or for shaking his arm one way when we shake ours another?

Are we not still majoring in minors? Are we not still focusing on the things that don't matter? Whatever ever happened to Christ? To the blood? To forgiveness?

Thank you for your insightful post. I think you have brought up some interesting points that need to be resolved.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Toledo

I, too, went on that trip to Malaysia. It was eye-opening. The churches there had clearly stumbled onto some sort of blessing. The increase in numbers was impressive (meetings more than tripling in size in only a very short time). The joy was palpable. The music was new and fresh. The new ones were lined up to be baptized

Amen Toledo. I enjoyed what you had to share.
First question I was thinking to myself is what caused the revival? It cannot be manufactured or duplicated.
Then I read your experience in Kuching. There is see a catalyst for the revival:
confessions of sins and opening of hearts. This is how I see a way being paved for the Lord to move and to increase.

Terry

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Toledo

However, Ohio is quite correct. When we returned, we were advised that the new song wouldn't fit our situation. The words needed to be changed and somehow we never got around to singing it again. The heart, the kernel, the center of what we had seen somehow never got out to the saints.

Even so, undaunted (I do not tend to daunt very easily), we began to practice what we had learned in my locality. There was a sister who had been in the church life for over 20 years who had never opened up her home for hospitality. After our fellowship, she began to invite saints over to her home several nights each week. We elders began to meet together to open up our hearts to one another. Our meetings were fresh, new ones were added, our numbers nearly doubled, and the sense of Christ in our meetings was palpable.

Toledo, I am glad to hear "the wind" of the Spirit had positively invaded your heart, and affected the ones near you. At the time I was only able to watch from afar and attempt to receive the Spirit third or fourth hand while watching "dances." I heard the saints had a lot of fun. With a distraught wife and a middle name like "clumsy" there was no way for me to participate in this "fun."

At the time, I saw the whole ordeal as yet one more "way" full of promises, yet short on fulfillment. I decided that even though I couldn't participate, I would in no way frustrate any blessing the Lord would bring our way. Concerning the damages wrought by evil workers, the joy of the "blending dancing" had long fizzled around here when the events of the recent quarantine took place.

There are a number of factors involved here. The first of which is the endless need to search around the world for some "move of the Lord" and bring the blessing back home. This phenomena apparently was more pronounced in my area than yours. This "copycat" mentality had occurred so often (since 1986) for so long, that I had long become weary.

I now feel that we had long ago lost our status as "local" church, and became a dreaded "denomination." The 20+ year decline in attendance here seems to confirm this. A root cause seems to be this inherent need to "find THE way" and bring it home. The thought of finding the Lord walking in our midst seemed nonexistent. Finding what the Lord was doing locally, and cooperating, would never occur in our "top-down" management style.

I realize this is an indictment on local shepherding, but I see them also as victims of a failed "program." Had they (and me), over the many years of ways and new ways, been able to develop their leadership and shepherding talents, I believe the recent quarantine would not have been so damaging. The saints know who cares for them! I believe this is the reason many congregations have enjoyed the Lord's blessing, while we have not.

[Hope]

Dear Countmeworthy and Toledo,

Your past two post have caused me to reflect on the past. I remember many sessions with young saints going over our attitude towards believers. That is, we needed to see them as those for whom Christ died etc. On the other hand, I can remember speaking a lot on the need to be in Spirit and in Reality. The latter applied to our own meetings and fellowship as to anyone else. Can we have discernment and be full of love at the same time? Was the writer of Hebrews wrong for urging the believers to press on to maturity and to chide them for their lack of discernment. Heb 5:12-6:2, "For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you have need again for someone to teach you the elementary principles of the oracles of God, and you have come to need milk and not solid food. For everyone who partakes only of milk is not accustomed to the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food is for the mature, who because of practice have their senses trained to discern good and evil. Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, of instruction about washings, and laying on of hands, and the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment."

Likewise note that Paul not only prayed for the saints to have abounding love but also discernment and the ability to approve and disapprove in order to know what is excellent. Phil 1:8-10, "And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment, so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ;"

A battle for me and many I know from the lc days has not been being critical of Christianity but the teaching that we should not discern anything that came from the “ministry” or the “deputy authorities.” “Don’t be critical.” “ Don’t be negative.” “Don’t know so much.” “Don’t pay attention to the chicken feathers and chicken bones. Just enjoy the chicken.” “Things are messy in the kitchen. Don’t look at that but enjoy the rich food prepared.” “Every church has problems just like every home has a trash can. Don’t spend time looking in the trash can.” And on and on. There were so many catch phrases to put down discernment and checking things by that which was excellent. For a long time, I felt guilty for judging things that came from Anaheim or from the LSM cadre. I deeply regret not judging and discerning all. Then we could have been saved a lot of trouble.

I have many dear friends who were formerly in an lc who are now in fellowship in a denomination or independent type assemble as well as several former lcers who meet with us here. Many of them have thrown out the baby of healthy discernment with the bath water of spiritual pride. Some of them have been frustrated in advancing in their Christian life due to being interested only in love and harmony devoid of any admonition to press on to what lies before or to apply all diligence to supply in our faith the items listed in 2 Peter chapter one. Not only do those who meet with us have the need to seek to know the Lord more and more and to grow in grace but it is the same with other Christian groups. To realize they have not arrived is not being critical.

Dealing with an attitude of judging is not to take a position that anything goes and everything is just hunky dory as long as we acknowledge Jesus Christ as our personal savior.

On the other hand, some former lcers, in their desire to have discernment of the past and in reaction to all the “don’t be negative,” admonishments, have thrown out everything good, bad and indifferent in order to deal with the problems of the past.

Thus, it does seem that Paul had it right. To have both love and discernment is a matter of earnest prayer and is not something we can just decide to have.

May the Lord have mercy on us all as we work through all the complications.



Hope, Don Rutledge

A believer in Christ Jesus who is seeking to be a true disciple.

[countmeworthy]

Hi Toledo and all,

Let me re-clarify something regarding my post. MOST of it, if not all of it was a means of explaining the preset mindset I HAD. When Igzy shared his post on the preset mindset, I personally felt I could relate to it very well.

As for being judgmental, I often pray for a Discerning spirit. The pendulem in my soul used to swing from one end to another. It's gotten better...not such high swings anymore.

During my tenure in the LC, back in the 70s', there was a lot of "POOR-POOR CHRISTIANITY." I had a Catholic upbringing and was never around any 'living' Christians until I met the saints from the LC. I developed a critical spirit for Christianity. Then the pendulum swung the other way & I developed a critical spirit towards the LSM/LC..brother Lee. I've gotten better...I sense a balancing in my life...not completely there yet..but getting there.

When I first left the LC, I went to various 'home gatherings'. I attended a Baptist church once or twice, I went to a Luthern service, a Prebsybeterian service and a somewhat Charasmatic church for a short while which met at a school. I was very leery of most Christians even though I didn't want to be a part of the LC anymore.

After a while, I decided I would mainly hangout with non believers.
I had never heard of Nee or Lee before I got saved and even though Nee is known in many Christian circles, his works are not referenced very much.

In the Christian community I'm around with, I hear a lot about Kenneth Hagin Sr, Oral Roberts, Smith Wigglesworth. No one mentionso Watchman Nee although I know some people know who he is and a few have a book or two by him.

Personally speaking, I feel I'm in a unique position..not BETTER or worst than anyone else...just unique. Most people here are former LCrs and you are the only former LCrs, I 'know'. Some of you I have met. Most of you I have not.

I have a LOT of contact with an LSMr/LCr who is in Wisconsin. This person knows I am NOT going back to the LSM/LC. We fellowship several times a week and sometimes I'm 'introduced' to other saints in the LC via a phone conference.

They're nice enough..and for the most part I am not critical but I do HATE the way they pray. It's the tone..the same type of prayer we prayed back in the day. And LORD HELP ME not to be judgmental!!! That said, I also hate the way Pentecostals will get riled up 'in the Holy Ghost' and start sing/songing prophesying. I also TRY not to be judgmental either...LORD HELP ME!!!

I have several CD's from the LSM conferences given by Ron Kangas, ? Taylor, and a few others. I find the sharing quite boring. BUT there are a lot of TV preachers that bore me too.

My reference to Pastors was when I WAS in the LC we never addressed the elders or leaders of the LC as Pastors and I KNOW for a fact the LCr I fellowship with does not like using the word Pastor. But the word Elder is not mentioned either. All 'leading ones' are brothers. AND NOT all leading men and women of God call themselves pastors either in the Christian community!

Where I meet, we had a series of teaching messages on the offices of the ministry one year...in fact, it was my first year there. OH MY GOSH...I was CRINGING through every session. Why? Because we never had meetings on the offices mentioned in the book of Ephesians when I WAS in the LC!

OF COURSE we're all BROTHERS Toledo!! That's not my point! I was merely pointing out differences of the observations I have made! I am sharing steps that helped ME get out of the LC MINDSET !

I don't care if you or anyone doesn't call a man of God Pastor IF that what he is. Not all men on the pulpit are Pastors! Not all Pastors are PREACHERS and not all PREACHERS are TEACHERS! Not all preachers/teachers/pastors/brothers/sisters are called to teach/preach.

I am sharing the steps I had to take to shed the OLD WINE SKIN and put on NEW WINE SKIN. But that said, sometimes AGED WINE is really good! I will forever be grateful for the way I was taught to be rooted and grounded in the Word of God while in the LC !

I'm not throwing out everything I learned/picked up in the LC. In fact, most of my experience in the LC was not BAD. The fellowship was GREAT! That we could fellowship one with each other was awesome.

Last week I went to a 'corporate' prayer meeting. A brother there greeted me, asked how I was, asked if I was ready to pray. I told him...YEPPERS! I've got the FULL ARMOUR OF GOD on me..The Helmet of Salvation is snuggled around my head, I'm wearing the Breastplate of Righteousness, I've got the Sword of the Spirit right here with me. Yes Indeedie...I'm ready to PRAY alright!

His reply was something like...oh. That's good. He smiled and walked away.
I tell my LC friend the LC was basically Grade School/High School for me. I'm now attending 'Holy Spirit University'. I hope you get my JEST!! I'm not going to a bible college called HSU. I'm letting the Holy Spirit teach me, guide me, enlighten me through the Word of God and through the fellowship with the saints...whereever we might be.

The topic of discussion on this tread is 'Where do we go from here?' A brother released from ministry.I'm sharing my journey..that's all and the reason I'm sharing it is because I know how deep the LC 'spirit' was in me and I was only there a short time.
Many here were in the LSM/LC a LOT longer than I ever was. You guys saw the changes I never did. Those in the GLA..WOW...the lawsuits ! The big arguments over who are the real LCrs! Quarantines! All that stuff..."Blended Brothers" HUH??? I had never heard of them. FTTA? HUH??
And many of you suffered through all of this. My heart goes out to each and every one of you.

Finally, I'd like to say, most of us here don't really know each other. We post and we have our private 'real' lives outside the forum.

Let me share a little bit about myself. I'm single..Happy and exceedingly BLESSED...HIGHLY FAVORED. But as sons and daughters of the MOST HIGH GOD, each and everyone of us on this forum, LCr or not, if we're the children of GOD, each and everyone of us is EXTREMELY BLESSED and HIGHLY FAVORED to be in the KINGDOM..for GOD is our KING and that means we have ROYAL BLOOD running in our spiritual veins!

What Satan meant for evil, God turned to Good. I'm 'retired'. I'll skip the details but I like to say I 'work' for God. I spent a LOT of my day in prayer, studying the Word, listening to teaching CDs, fellowshipping when I can and sharing the gospel when I can. I've brought several people to the LORD the last couple of years.

Not everyone is able to stay at home like I can. My life is basically stress FREE now...but I sure paid a heavy duty price for it ! I lived in the valley of the shadow of death for a lonnnnnnng time and paid a heavy duty price for disobeying the Lord and Rebelling against Him. But I learned His Mercy is everlasting and His Mercy and Kindness is everlasting. Surely His GOODNESS and MERCY WILL follow me all the days of my life.

I've learned and am still learning to listen to the Voice of God, that is the Holy Spirit in my spirit and Obey the LORD.
Because of my blessing to be at home, I have a HUGE responsibility to make sure I honor the LORD and SERVE Him in spirit and in truth..at ALL TIMES!

Thanks again for reading my long winded post. I hope I didn't bore you all too much and if I did...oh well...you probably stopped reading it a long time ago! LOL!

May the LORD continue to RICHLY bless each and everyone of us and restore in us the JOY of our Salvation in Christ Jesus.

[Hope]

Dear Brother Countmeworthy,

Thank you for you long post. I enjoyed reading all of it. May the Lord grant you much rich enjoyment and fruitful days. Great testimony of one coming back to the Lord. It is very encouraging for I know several who have "for a season" left the Lord since they left the lc. I pray they may return to the Lord very soon.

Hope, Don Rutledge

[aron]

Originally Posted by Toledo

As I reconsider this , the problem is... nobody could tell us what had caused the revival. I was particularly aware of it, because I was one of the brothers who was going to have to make a report when we got back.

Not many of the saints there had given much thought to what had brought their revival about. They just enjoyed it.

Hope's comment about John 3:8 ("The Spirit [wind] moves where it wills, and you hear the sound of it, yet you cannot tell from whence it comes, nor whither it goes, so is every one who is born of the Spirit") at this point is so appropriate.

Why is it that we continually try to put the wind in a box? It is no longer the wind when confined within our walls. Just let it flow.

The only rules I can see are:

1)repent. Unless, of course, you are already perfected. Then you can go straight to step 2

2)love the person next to you. God loves them.

3)Forgive others their offenses.

4)As much as you can, stay away from sin of all types. When you fail, see step number 1

For me, getting more complicated than that brings stasis, stultification, religion, and various types of distress.

Paul said, "It is for freedom that Christ has set us free..." Some rules (a very few) bring freedom. Most other rules just bring new chains...see Galatians chapter 5, verse 1, etc.

[Toledo]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Not all Pastors are PREACHERS and not all PREACHERS are TEACHERS! Not all preachers/teachers/pastors/brothers/sisters are called to teach/preach.

Okay, now say that three times -- really fast...!

[finallyprettyokay]

Hello. I have been unable to log on very often, but I'm baaaack. Actually, I've been lurking for almost a month now, just wondering if I would jump in or not. Well, here goes.

A couple of thoughts:

Sometimes it takes a lot of courage to post here. I wonder sometimes if it may be just a little harder for the women among us (example - me). This can be a really rough and tumble place, sometimes I just don't know if I want to open myself to that. I don't know what the answer is, exactly. We are a bunch of really strong folks here -- that is clear. Thank you Sister CountMeWorthy for your courage.

Aron: Good three rules. I wonder if maybe it doesn't boil down to even just two rules -- Love the Lord God with all your heart, mind, strength and Love your neighbor as yourself. With those two things lighting my path, everything falls into place much easier.

About how we all go on -- all the different variations there are -- I think maybe most of the time we are each doing pretty much our best. For all the different reasons we are each who we are, a universe and a lifetime of reasons -- we all seem to find the way to go on the best we can. My son is a film buff and tells me really interesting things about films and film makers that I am usually too restless to find out myself. Here's one of my favorites - one of his favorites, too - French film maker Jean Renoir, son the famous painter, makes films that often show an issue or experience from many different sides. Here's the quote -- "The problem with life is everyone has their own good reasons".

My post LC life would look like a maze in one of those old spook houses at a carnival. Man, I have been all over the place and bumped into things all along the way. I sometimes thought I would be in that maze for the rest of my life. Because I really was doing my best, and for my own good reasons, I would pray (to a God I didn't even think I believed in, mind you) "Please, know I am doing my best here. Please don't let me be deceived again, and don't let me deceive myself". And I would also say (to that unknown God) "Don't be mad at me, I am confused but not meaning to be stubborn". Wild prayers, huh? But God is good and God is real and I am mostly out of the worst of the maze now. Mostly

I should really wrap this with more literary style, but I think I am just gonna stop here. Thanks, all.

And Merry Christmas, too.

finallyprettyokay (Sister!)

-

[countmeworthy]

Toledo,
I'm still trying to play catch up on all the posts on this thread.

This is one of the BEST threads on this forum! I hadn't read your entire post and responded to just glimpses then went on to 'toot' my own horn if you will. If I came across as if I was playing leap frog and get in front of the pack, I apologize.

I, too, went on that trip to Malaysia. It was eye-opening. The churches there had clearly stumbled onto some sort of blessing. The increase in numbers was impressive (meetings more than tripling in size in only a very short time). The joy was palpable. The music was new and fresh. The new ones were lined up to be baptized

.
My bad here....I haven't gotten to the original post of who went to the trip to Malaysia and when was it. But what I read in this post....WOWSEE ! WOWSEE!! The Wonderful Holy Spirit was bringing in a FRESH ANNOINTING of Himself to the saints there !!! He is the Oil of Joy ya know!

The churches there practiced a genuine "blending" (no, really!). The saints would come together for a picnic or a dinner with saints from other places. There was no need for an anointed "blending brother" (acchhh, ptooey), everyone would dance and sing and talk and fellowship and get to know one another and on and on and on.

How exciting !!! Ohhhh I wish I could have been there !!! On a much smaller scale, I had a similar experience yesterday. There is a 'church' within the 'church' I meet with. I'll explain. The church I meet with has a special service/meeting for Spanish speaking people. The entire meeting is in Spanish..from the Praise/Worship music to the teachings and the scripture readings.

Being that I'm of Mexican descent and am bi-lingual, I felt the Lord was leading me to go that service. If you'll allow me to explain. I have relatives in Mexico I talk to a couple of times a month. They scolded me last month telling me my Spanish was rusty and I needed to brush up on it.

Knowing there was a Spanish speaking service, I started going to it a few weeks ago.

Leave it to the LORD JESUS to use my aunts !

Being that it's the Christmas season, we skipped the service and had a nice luncheon at a couple's home. It started off with about 12 people and a couple of hours later there were about 50!! The Fellowship was heavenly. Pockets of people were gathered everywhere and everywhere I went, the fellowship was Glorious.

I learned soo much and it was awesome to get to know everyone there. Btw, it was a bi-lingual get together..Some spoke english others spanish.

I speak mostly English. Anyway....in one little pocket, I was sharing whatever the Lord had me share. I remember sharing a little bit about Sanctification. But it's somewhat of a blur.

What I noticed was everyone was extremely quiet and all their eyes were on me while I was speaking. It was a small group I was talking to and I didn't know any of them. As I'm watching them focus on me, I asked the LORD if I was going over the top. I was a tad nervous...mainly because I didn't KNOW what level they were on...spiritually speaking.

After a little time went by, the silence was broken. One of the sisters listening to me speak came over and said to me : Are YOU an ANGEL ? Did you come from Heaven? I smiled sheepishly as she spoke. She then added.." YOU ARE SOOO ANOINTED!" I replied..'I am???'

YES !! Did you not notice how everyone kept watching you speak and how no one was able to talk?

LOL..

I chuckled and told her I had and was praying while talking because I didn't know what they were thinking of what I was saying !!!

Forgive me if it appears I'm trying to draw attention to myself. If you really knew me face to face, you would know I don't...or at least TRY not to. Believe me, the Lord will whack me over the head if I step out of line.

My point is, when the Holy Spirit moves, there is no stopping HIM !

But, however, with this caveat, the problem is... nobody could tell us what had caused the revival.

THAT WAS THE HOLY SPIRIT !! THAT'S our GOD !!!
Does Joel and Acts not prophesy that in the last days the SPIRIT would pour Himself on all flesh?

IF that happened today, everyone would know it was the Holy Spirit MOVING!

These kinds of happenings have taken place all over the world. Many Christians believe there is going to be a world wide Revival, a pouring out of the Latter Rain so to speak in the last days. It has begun if you ask me but if it's MAN MADE like it was in Lakeland Florida this past summer, it's going crumble. God is not mocked..

Not many of the saints there had given much thought to what had brought their revival about. They just enjoyed it. We were advised repeatedly that it was the result of their new children's work.\ Sorry, I didn't buy it

OOh Toledo...how that must have grieved the Holy Spirit. He was not given the credit. YOU on the other hand, knew it was GOD who brought the revival!
Why look at Brother Toledo go! You got yourself a JEWEL on that CROWN of yours![/B]

Then, when we were in Kuching, there was a brother who explained to me what had happened. He told how the saints in a certain locality had come together, confessing their sins and opening their hearts to one another

.
Ya see what the POWER of Repentance and Confession does? It releases the POWER of the HOLY SPIRIT!! The FIRE of the Holy Spirit began to spread ! Praise You LORD JESUS!

We felt that we had put our fingers on the pulse of what was happening there. We were filled with rejoicing. I sat down and wrote a new song in less than ten minutes! We sang that song again and again throughout our trip.

Aww...the Crown of Rejoicing is awaiting you at the Bema Seat of Christ Toledo! 1 Thessalonians 2:19 (KJV)

For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?

1 Thessalonians 2:19 (NLT)
After all, what gives us hope and joy, and what will be our proud reward and crown as we stand before our Lord Jesus when he returns? It is you! (Toledo!)

And from the Amplified:
For what is our hope or happiness or our victor's wreath of exultant triumph when we stand in the presence of our Lord Jesus at His coming? Is it not you?

However, Ohio is quite correct. When we returned, we were advised that the new song wouldn't fit our situation. The words needed to be changed and somehow we never got around to singing it again.

Oh my Goodness. What a horrible thing they did to the Holy Spirit. What they did must have really grieved Him and thus He departed. His Presence left. He was 'kicked out'. He was not welcomed. How terribly sad for them.

I'm guessing this was LSM's doing?

Even so, undaunted (I do not tend to daunt very easily), we began to practice what we had learned in my locality. There was a sister who had been in the church life for over 20 years who had never opened up her home for hospitality. After our fellowship, she began to invite saints over to her home several nights each week. We elders began to meet together to open up our hearts to one another. Our meetings were fresh, new ones were added, our numbers nearly doubled, and the sense of Christ in our meetings was palpable.

Aww ! The Holy Spirit knew/KNOWS where He is Welcomed! So He BLESSED you..blessed the Sister..blessed the fellowship and anointed you with the Oil of Gladness and the Oil of Joy. Praise You Precious Jesus!

Alas that this was damaged by the recent quarantine and concurrent LSM induced local rebellions. Those who had opened up their hearts quickly slammed them shut once again,

Toledo...this is spiritual warfare. The devil's comfort zone in the LSM was disturbed. We war against the principalities and powers of the air...not against flesh and blood.

Do not let your hearts be troubled. If God is for YOU and HE is, WHO can be against you? Keep seeking the Guidance and Leading of the Holy Spirit.

Keep getting together in Praise and Worship with a heart of Thanksgiving.

Remember what the Psalmist says in Psalm 100:4 : We enter into His Gates with THANKSGIVING...into His Courts with Praise. Praising the LORD leads us into the Holy of Holies where we Worship Him because we are now in His Holy Presence. When we're in His Presence, the Peace of God surpasses all understanding. No weapon formed against you can even touch you. Remember what Stephen saw and what he said as he was being stoned: LORD JESUS! Receive my spirit! I bet he didn't even feel the rocks as he was being stoned because he was soo immersed in the Presence of the LORD. He saw the heavens open and the LORD who was sitting at the right hand of the Father stood up!

[Indiana]

I will share (below) this young brother's whole letter of concern, which is not only for me, but for all forum members. I believe he represents the way many younger people in the church think, who did not pass through in time what we have. If you find points of interest to you that you feel to comment on, please do. I admire him for his time spent to appeal to us. He does speak his heart. Such young people are the future of the local church. What do we have to share with them? And, what can we receive from them? I believe there are many looking on.

This thread is on How we should go on - this young, dear brother, has his thoughts about us and how we should go on.

1 The brothers, those who blend in Christ with each other - they have their own limitations, similarly, I have my own, Dr. Tomes has his own; we all have our own short-comings and limitations! But there is One who is perfect, without any short-comings, He is Christ, God's Son and the mystery of God and the reason Why God created all this (in the first place).

2 No brother - Nee, Lee, Darby, John Newton, who else?? Augustine, even Paul, claimed that they know God 100%,... brother Lee only preached that "look, dear saints - this is the present move, the present truth God and His word are echoing based on His Word, that there should be only Body of Christ!"

3 What’s wrong with that! What’s wrong if a person is not 100% Christ-like. Life study of Genesis 85 speaks about having bones and dung and feathers in Brother Lee's ministry, similarly brother Nee had his own bones, feathers, and dung -- but do we have to focus on dung or shall we look to the perfect Christ and receive the healthy teaching of a servant of God

4. I, and others like me, most saints in the Lord's recovery - do not think that brother Lee was God or that He will be the last man standing until Christ comes back. Brother Lee never mentioned that. Are there any shortcomings in brother Lee's teachings or living/ life practices/styles - surely He does have; no one is perfect! But then again, those who are serious about God, they do not focus on the dung, feathers, and the bones of brother Witness Lee but they keep the oneness in the Spirit and love.

5 I see a total of 91 brothers and sisters on the "localchurchdiscussions.com" forum and they all, very matured in their physical age -- but hardly had they demonstrated any spiritual maturity - they talk vain, they speak out their bitterness, they fight, and they speak lies just like small kids! Do you think by doing this any new soul can be won to one's side! I do not think so. Maybe there will be some who would buy such cheap talks but then those who will - will they be profitable to them or their ministry? Only God knows!

6 Brother Steve, I don't know how come I wrote this much, (this letter might get longer, pardon me brother) ..but all I wanted to say to you that I was really touched when I found that you did your best to re-unite all the brothers against the tides!

7 Whether you succeeded or not, matters not, but what matters is that we all have our life open before the Lord. The Lord will judge all of us and I am not for any further division. I am not that old, may be I am a stupid boy - but even I can say that what Dr. Tomes, Sis Jane, and brother Titus did was silly, .. I am not saying that Sis Jane or many others in the times of br Philip Lee did not suffered, no I am not saying that, but I am saying what they are doing today is silly. There is something called as "past things" and "forgiveness and love". It seems that even Christians are capable of doing politics and envy!!

8 Mercy on such souls, O Lord!! God is watching. Brother, I am not defending any one here. I am not speaking on behalf of DCP or LSM. I don't even know anyone from there besides some names and faces. And so I do about the GLA and others. I am not here from any human-formed party, or for any man's agenda, I am speaking on behalf of the Bible and God's plan for all of us. And this was the very thing - both brother Lee and Nee and many others before them spoke and preached for hundreds of years!

9 Brother, any person, going to the www.lastadam.org will receive some life (some encouragement, some cheers) but any person going to the forum will taste vanity and hatred and confusions, and countless stories of self-suffering) ... oh my God, how come some of these sisters have that much self, that all they see is in terms of their self-suffering. If someone will boycott me - and I do not entertain my self, I will not suffer much self-suffering!

10 Similarly, there was a time when the church in Shanghai left brother Nee and all were against him, still he preached and later testified that he still loved the church because the Lord loves His church. May be the church is against him but then he can not be against the church. Finally, when brother Lee came and things got fine again in 4-6 years of time, brother Nee demonstrated a very strong example. I believe, you must know about this brother.

11 Brother, I read your book, our secret history - and I always wonder, what is point here? - how does it relates to me today or to the churches I have even been to - I always wondered, if you have got a right point and if there are lessons we all can learn and apply to us today, how come then the other brothers and saints did not received you? Truly speaking I don't know. Personally speaking, I believe, you all have something valuable to share, very much priceless, but then the way saints reacts in the Body when touched is alarming and even confusing…

12 Then they will fully use capital L and C, to denote that, yes, we do understand, but there is a LSM/LCS, to which we do not belong! Wow, this is silly, very silly... This is not Love, this is not genuine Christ-likeness, this is not forgiveness, and this is not Christian maturity, the Lord is suffering, I know!!

13 Do they believe that someone offended them (their "self"); the answer is - Yes, absolutely! Now when they do this to towards those who are innocent (for example, I was not even born when Philip Lee caused so much problem and division) - Now if someone wants to throw those past garbage on me, Lord save me!!

14 When sister Jane wrote her book, or whatever, spiritual journey (in which, truly speaking, I did not saw any spirituality, the author seems to be really unaware about what spirit is, on the first hand) ... she needs to come to India or go to Tibet (sorry now there is no more Tibet), to see what mystics are like, what different spirit are, and what it means to be separate from the world. Well, Christ also taught us not to love the World, or money, or your self; I did not saw that she even denied her self or her family or her children but that she mentioned a lot about these and also charged the local churches for all the bad happening sin her life, so sad!! So sad brother!!


15. Now, I was not even a Christian when all these happened, and the things have changed today from 1930s, …things have progressed, (we are out of the dark ages; we are out of the WW1, 2; we are out of the cultural revolution … but the LORD is the LORD) and the things will always progress (both for the better and the worst), …after all God is there to judge, but right now, all my heart can bear to ask you, ”What do you understand by "being a member" in the local church or of the local church?”

16. Brother, please trust in the LORD and read your New Testament until you see these “fleshly” forums and this World (and its knowledge, and things) as nothing but fake, corrupted, and in total depravity and decay! I always feel sad whenever I read brother Don Ruthge, as he always write the words which a soul uses to express the things of the spiritual realm but his points, messages, stories are far-far from it; oh that he may see it that he will see it! O Lord.

17. I would definitely love to meet you Steve one day. Trust me I won't try to bring you to any church or church life, but I love you and I would just love to meet you and to have fellowship with you.

18. I gently ask you, “how you can be an ex-member?”, as we all are the members of the One Body of Christ. The local churches are the local churches and the Body is the Body. Whether the Lord’s recovery has become a LCS or LSM-churches is only a matter of “perspectives” and vain human reasoning and opinions but it has nothing to do with the Eternal Truths that Jesus is the LORD. I believe I am a member in the Body of Christ. And I also see and believe in the grace of God in His recovery today. And I also have heart for those who were once mistreated or those who are confused or bitter: may the Lord heal them and bond them in the Body.

19 Further as there is no registration for the membership or church formal membership application or procedure, how one can be an ex-member or even a former member. It depends upon what vision one is into and what is one's concepts of divine things are... the truth is to have no concepts but to live by faith in the Life of Christ by the Spirit for the God as God Himself Is and ... its a matter of expression of all these truths ...

20 One thing which I have noticed here in this country is that people are too vulnerable and easily fooled.. As the internet and the print media is so open and so strong ... people are really attacked by the Satan into the deception and actually into the various deception...

21 We do not have any headquarters or organization. The church is headed up only by Christ; Christ being both the head of each saint and the head of the church. In the church there are leading brothers or elders who are placed not by any official persons but by the Lord's leading and arrangement through the spirit and the Body's representatives. We have No church directory. Any born again believer who comes to the meeting is considered a member of the Body. In fact, any born again believer in any particular city is actually a member of the Body and a part of the church in that city. There is only one church in a city; however, not all Christians realize or practice this truth.

22 We may have name lists for keeping track of the saints. A church may issue a baptism certificate on occasion at the request of a saint. We also may place the leading brothers' contact numbers in a book with a list of churches. That book however is not something official but rather it is the labor of a brother or group of brothers who have the burden to do this for the sake of practicality and the convenience for fellowship. All the genuine local churches have fellowship with each other but there is no headquarters or committees that control the churches.

23 An individual local church may have to register with the government as some kind of official society and even may have to register a name with the government. This is according to the eyes and laws of the government in any particular city. Thus, there are accounting records kept, reporting made to the government etc. The saints who offer financial gifts may also desires receipts for the sake of the law.

24 Thus, you can see there are two sides to this: one is the organic side with Christ the head and the saints as the members of His Body. This is in the spiritual realm of the church. There is no hierarchy or official ordinations, memberships or directories. We are simply heavenly citizens with the saints, members of the household of God and members of the Body of Christ.

25. Brother Steve, now don’t you and the other so called “ex-members” know about this? Don’t they see this; realize this? Now the matter of fact could be little different from one locality to another, that’s understandable. For example, the previous church where I was baptized, they do not even have the registration with the government. They didn’t have the website, or any sort of manual effort but all they trusted was the Spirit! Now, you tell me brother, I ask you brother Steve – this very church I mentioned to you, they received the Holy Words for the Morning Revival from an another church which in turn printed it and they had the materials for the Living Stream Ministry. Now, I ask you, the church I mentioned was that a genuine church or a LSM-church? How silly, these remarks are!! How pitiful, how ignorant!

26. If someone has the eyes to see the negatives, why they don’t exercise their spirit and ask for the Lord’s mercy to see the bigger picture. I ask all the ex-members, have they even been on a trip to various churches after they thought that thy have been cut-off from their home locality?

27. Unlike believing in the questions, we the saints in the Lord's recovery believe in truth, love, and the Body-Life. I trust "silence" and I know my LORD! So does all HIS children and friends. If we are the friends of God, and the lovers of the church, then how come even after seeing so much, we do what we shouldn't do? Well, brother, I have read your book (online), I have read and followed your comments, discussion and reactions to various ex-members? on the bearen forum ... Is that a place for a saint?

28. You are old and matured, I trust you, you have a heart, I have seen that; yet brother, in a simple innocence, I plead to you to take a leave and go to some mountain and live in seclusion for some time, spend your days with the LORD alone and fast on the very triune GOD. Brother, we all are the members of One Body of Christ, aren't we? Then why and how one can be an -"ex-member"; is this the Lord's recovery?

29. We all are the members, whether we like it or not, whether one meet in a local church or not, but we all are the many members of One Body. And the Body is the LORD HIMSELF. There is One God and One Body and One expression of HIM even in the eternity, then if the local church is true, and you are true, and I am true, then where is the reality of the term "ex-member", as if there is some formality to get into the Body!

30. Brother, now we have moved to 2008, this is not 1927, this is not 1988-89, this is not 1997, nor 2001-02, but we have repented and have learned of our mistakes, and who are this "we"! This "we" is not local-churches, what are the local churches? But this "we" is the "Body"; together as a Body, even as One body, keeping the Lord's testimony in the oneness and in each locality, we have learned our lessons and we will keep learning until the day comes when we will see the Son of Man Once again coming on the clouds and the blowing trumpets of the angels .. We’ll keep learning!

31. But again, this "We" is the Body, not my church, nor yours, nor ex-ones?, nor sister Janes', not brother Titus', nor of brother John So', not even of br Lee, or Nee, or of Darby, or Wesley ... this is the LORD'S church, the Body is of LORD'S.

32. The Body has learned, the Body will learn - and the Body will continue, we continue with the Body and in the Body, for the Body, as the Body and even One with Body!

33. Brother, I, being in my early 20s can at-least see some foolishness in us, ...the matters of blind war?, blind conspiracy?, .. Oh my hearts goes out to you and to all the saints...

34. There are couple of million of saints in the church-life, but not are concerned with it.. praise the LORD : ) Not all the saints would write to you and to many of the others who left the church when she was week, when she needed you all the most, these are my convictions voice and not of any conferences or messages, not the words of the Living Stream's serving saints but mine ... the voice which is in agony and which is week and desperate to call out to all the sheep, all the saints, to all those who are not fed, not valued, not looked upon .. Oh brother Steve, may I ask you to please take out your words off the internet and your mind --- and will you join the Spirit of the God, will you fast on God alone, will you be able to leave USA and visit some lone place, to have a reflection , a reflection on your life and on what have you done so far? the damages you have caused to the innocent saints and to the whole Body!! Will leave this country or wherever you are to just step back a little and to spend some time with the LORD, serving some saints in some small locality may be...

35. I don't know, you need to ask the LORD, but brother, I do know that I do love you and many of the saints in the recovery ... the blindness is not one sided, but is two fold on each eye, if the soul is void of love!

I again lost me pin-pointed message but this is what I had, I gave you brother. This could be a waste of time to you, ...then please forgive me. Or if you saw my heart and the message, ...God bless you brother. I'll still love you. Brother,

I have many things to say, as much as it may become like your journal on the internet... but I do not seek to do so ...all I wished was that let my heart talk to your heart.

O Lord, Jesus. O Lord, O Lord Jesus.


Yours in Christ
Your innocent brother
Sal

"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free." (GOD )

[Suannehill]

Well...my dear young brother, many of us did not reject Christ or the saints. Due to leading from Benson Phillips and others we were rejected by them.
They stopped fellowship, stopped speaking and were very angry and bitter toward us. You were not in the middle of the turmoil. It is very easy to speak peace when all around you is peaceful.
I have seen the third world, I have smuggled Bibles to mountain villages and to teaming cities. I have called on the Lord for days due to the demonic surroundings.
I am guessing that I'm not the only one here with such experiences.
You have painted us with a broad and condemning brush without knowing us spiritually. Is that from the Spirit?
I offered to fall on my face anywhere in prayer to restore fellowship. The response was silence.
There are many assumptions in your letter and I will not attempt to address them all.
Please know that we are here to love the Lord Jesus and expose His enemy everywhere...even in the local churches.
Your sister
Sue

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Hope

A battle for me and many I know from the lc days has not been being critical of Christianity but the teaching that we should not discern anything that came from the “ministry” or the “deputy authorities.” “Don’t be critical.” “ Don’t be negative.” ... "Don’t spend time looking in the trash can.”

There were so many catch phrases to put down discernment and checking things by that which was excellent. For a long time, I felt guilty for judging things that came from Anaheim or from the LSM cadre. I deeply regret not judging and discerning all. Then we could have been saved a lot of trouble.

I appreciate this kind of fellowship which "rightly divides." PeterD. uses a great verse in his signature line: "Test everything. Hold on to the good." 1 Th. 5:21 It is normal, healthy, and quite scriptural to discern those things which are excellent. Paul said, "by the renewing of the mind that you may prove what the will of God is." I find myself constantly checking scripture in my mind, when I come across those many things in the "greater body of Christ" which I once judged. Like Toledo has said, what we need is a new mindset.

Let me address just one example. I also still treasure calling the Lord's name, but not that thing "you seem sleepy this morning, so let's all stand and call on His name 3x." That's why it becomes so hard for many to discern the "baby" and the "bathwater." If an ex-lc'er cannot discern these, then s/he will reject both. Due to this difficulty in discerning, most former members have "chucked" everything that differs from Christianity. To me, that's not the best way, but it seems to work for them, as they "blend" into new congregations. Using these different "standards" does seem to create conflict on the forum at times.

Here's another example, Toledo said:

You wanna call some man pastor (just because he's taking the lead)? Fine. Go ahead, that's not scriptural, but it's not life-threatening.

For me, "pastor" is in the Bible. It's a variant of shepherd, so to me it's not an issue. What is an issue is the title "pastor." Should we call a leader, "Pastor Don," for example. Formerly, I vehemently opposed this. Now, I'm rethinking this. In the LC's, "Brother" can be a title too. We always said, "Brother Lee" and not Witness Lee or Mr. Lee. "Apostle Paul" and "Elder Peter" were also titles, but that doesn't bother people. Did we just use this distinction to separate ourselves from others, or is it valid? What say ye?

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Suannehill

... many of us did not reject Christ or the saints. Due to leading from Benson Phillips and others we were rejected by them.
They stopped fellowship, stopped speaking and were very angry and bitter toward us. ....
I have seen the third world, I have smuggled Bibles to mountain villages and to teaming cities. I have called on the Lord for days due to the demonic surroundings.
...we are here to love the Lord Jesus and expose His enemy everywhere...even in the local churches.
Your sister
Sue

Sue,

I've been reading and learning about the crowns awaiting us at the Bema Seat of Christ. (This was something the LORD dropped on my lap. I didn't intentionally purpose myself to study/learn about the crowns but it has been a REWARD in itself to learn about the crowns. The crowns may not be our goal but they're awaiting us when we finish running the race!)

Anyway......Just wanted to tell you...Ya got some mighty fine crowns awaiting you at Judgment day! Let's see, there is
the Crown of Rejoicing, (the soul-winners crown) (1 Thessalonians 2:19)

the Crown of LIFE, for people who endured suffering (James 1:2) (Revelation 2: 10)

the Incorruptable Crown, for those who ran the race with endurance. (1 Corinthians 1:24)

The Crown of GLORY The Victor's crown..the crown that will never fade away. (1 Peter 5:1-4)

The Crown of Righteousness for those who LOVE His Appearing. (II Timothy 4:8)

Keep running the Race Sue! Don't look back... we're almost at the finish line! We've got a cloud of witnesses surrounding us...urging us, cheering us on !!!

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

It is normal, healthy, and quite scriptural to discern those things which are excellent. Paul said, "by the renewing of the mind that you may prove what the will of God is." I find myself constantly checking scripture in my mind, when I come across those many things in the "greater body of Christ" which I once judged. Like Toledo has said, what we need is a new mindset.

COMPLETELY!

Let me address just one example. I also still treasure calling the Lord's name, but not that thing "you seem sleepy this morning, so let's all stand and call on His name 3x." That's why it becomes so hard for many to discern the "baby" and the "bathwater."

I'm totally on the same page with you Ohio! I too call on the Name of the LORD. A LOT. But I'm very consientious of why I'm calling on Him...very respectful.. I have done an indepth study of His Precious Name..and we barely can grasp at the POWER we release to the universe when we call on the Name of JESUS with a pure heart.

I've also learned in the last couple of years to talk more to God, the Holy Spirit. I've also done an indepth study of our Precious Holy Spirit. And WOW...the Triune God, the GodHead may be a mystery but because I've come to KNOW each person of the GodHead (still trying to get to know our Heavenly Father better..I confess) I say this very, very humbly, I have been taken up a notch in the heavenly realm. It's hard to explain in earthly words.

All I can say is because of my relationship with the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit through the WORD of God, I'm not the same person I was last year. Ok...none of us are but something has 'happened' to me which transcends this earthly realm.

Here's another example, Toledo said:
For me, "pastor" is in the Bible. It's a variant of shepherd, so to me it's not an issue. What is an issue is the title "pastor." Should we call a leader, "Pastor Don," for example. Formerly, I vehemently opposed this. Now, I'm rethinking this. In the LC's, "Brother" can be a title too. We always said, "Brother Lee" and not Witness Lee or Mr. Lee. "Apostle Paul" and "Elder Peter" were also titles, but that doesn't bother people. Did we just use this distinction to separate ourselves from others, or is it valid?

That was EXACTLY the point I was trying to make!

Elders are found in the Old Testament. When I came into the LC in the 70's, each locality had an 'elder' or several 'elders'. No one was addressed as Pastor. That's fine. I have no problem with that but the BIBLE does speak of Pastors/Shepherds. So why not say brother or sister so & so is really a Pastor in their calling! Brother Lee was not just your local 'brother'. His TITLE was BROTHER LEE. No one including brother Lee ever addressed "BROTHER" Watchman Nee. When he is referred to it is "Watchman Nee".

These forums of mostly former LCrs (I think) have been trying to make a point to lurkers that the LC didn't have titles but they did. The titles were more subtle...especially 'Brother Lee's'. We in the LC made it a point to address each other as "BROTHER" or "SISTER" in the meetings. It was 'The SISTERS meeting' or the 'Brothers' house...or 'the saints'. In 'Christianity', the saints recognize we men and women of God, born again, are brothers and sisters in Christ. I occassionally here someone address the congregation as 'Saints' too. But overall, most people don't address each other as 'brothers' or 'sisters' or 'saints'.

I am making an observation..not asking or stating we should or should not.

"Titles" are not important. It is how we live, how we conduct ourselves daily. Do people know there is something 'different' about us. Do people know us by our fruits?

In the end..when each of us stand before the LORD at Judgment day, I doubt very, very much He will be addressing anyone as 'Pastor', Bishop, 'Pope' or 'Brother' or 'Sister'.

[UntoHim]

RE: "Your innocent brother, Sal"

Now I understand the saying "Youth is wasted on the wrong people!"

Sal, you really, really need to get out more bro. Get some sun. Get some fresh air. You are much, much too young to be so narrow minded, obtuse and bigoted. If you are not careful you will end up like our dear brother Ron Kangas. Have you ever seen somebody so spiritually constipated in your entire life? (no worries brother Ron..we only kid the ones we love).

Sal, your 35 points reminded me a little of Luther's 95 Thesis. It was almost as rambling, almost as self indulgent and almost as long! My, my, my...all this out of such a young guy! Don't tell me... you are about ready to enter that little faux seminary that has been dubbed the Full Time Training. I dread to think of the lectures you will be giving us after you get processed through that robot factory! (sorry, sorry, that's a little over-the-top...but that's the way I feel about the FTT)

"Matured in their physical age" you say? Sal, you crack me up dude. You should try using this term with your mother or some older woman boss you work for. Just call us "OLD"... we can handle it. Look, the sooner you stop equating spirituality with how one views the religion of the Local Church and it's founder, the sooner you will be seeing that light and breathing that fresh air I talked about. In the meantime you must realize that this is an Internet discussion forum, not a meeting of the Local Church.

Keep reading my boy, keep reading.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Toledo

And "going to church"? I dunno, it's my understanding that the believers are the church, not some brick building. That's why I don't say "go to church".

It took me a while to get used to this one again. (It was a big point of ridicule in Texas because, you know, we were so clear about what the church was, not like those ninnies in Christianity. You laugh, but for all our talk about oneness we really did think everyone else were ninnies.)

Anyway, everyone says "go to church," so why fight it? It's a idiom, a shorthand. And really it's okay, because when people say go to church they mean they are going to the meeting/service, not the building. Nobody says "I'm going to church" when they are just going to the building to run an errand.

A while back, I was speaking to small group leader and he kept talking about "going to group." And I thought to myself, See? Here's another idiom getting started.

[Hope]

Good morning Sister Countmeworthy,

From reading the posts this morning I now realize I referred to you as brother. I trust we are okay. Great testimony regarding the meeting where you were sharing with others regarding santification. How I love to hear of the Spirit's fresh work in specific people in specific places at specific times. This is a big part of God's administration, (economy).

I recall with great emotion the times during the sixties and seventies when the time after the Lord's Table was like hearing from Acts chapter 29 or 30 or chapter 1,567. I am hoping the Lord will renew my old memory and I can put together a book of rememberances
Mal 3:16-18, Then those who feared the LORD spoke to one another, and the LORD gave attention and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before Him for those who fear the LORD and who esteem His name. "And they will be Mine," says the LORD of hosts, "on the day that I prepare My own possession, and I will spare them as a man spares his own son who serves him." So you will again distinguish between the righteous and the wicked, between one who serves God and one who does not serve Him. NASB

Hope, Don Rutledge

A believer in Christ Jesus who is seeking to be a true disciple.

[Toledo]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

So why not say brother or sister so & so is really a Pastor in their calling!

If someone is a pastor, a shepherd, one who is gifted for taking care of the saints, then that is simply a fact. We don't use "elder" or "evangelist" or "prophet" as a title. Why should we use "pastor"? The practice in modern denominations of calling someone "pastor" has very little to do with who is gifted to shepherd. Rather it is the name given to one who has a leading position.

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Brother Lee was not just your local 'brother'. His TITLE was BROTHER LEE. No one including brother Lee ever addressed "BROTHER" Watchman Nee. When he is referred to it is "Watchman Nee".

Your point is well taken. "Brother" was indeed Witness Lee's title among us. However, I don't know of anyone else who used that word as a title.

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

These forums of mostly former LCrs (I think) have been trying to make a point to lurkers that the LC didn't have titles but they did. The titles were more subtle...especially 'Brother Lee's'. We in the LC made it a point to address each other as "BROTHER" or "SISTER" in the meetings. It was 'The SISTERS meeting' or the 'Brothers' house...or 'the saints'. In 'Christianity', the saints recognize we men and women of God, born again, are brothers and sisters in Christ. I occassionally here someone address the congregation as 'Saints' too. But overall, most people don't address each other as 'brothers' or 'sisters' or 'saints'.

Nope, I don't buy it. We'd call someone "Brother" or "Sister" because they were a brother or a sister. It wasn't a title, but simply a term of address (and it beat having to remember everybody's name!).

The "Brothers' House" was where the brothers lived. Same with the "Sisters' House". A sisters meeting was a meeting for sisters. That's not a title; that's simply a fact.

We call each other saints because we are saints, but we don't call anyone Saint Don. Heck, we hardly even say "Saint Paul" or "Saint Peter".

I think you have a point about "Brother" Lee. I don't think the rest holds quite as much water.

But even so:

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

"Titles" are not important. It is how we live, how we conduct ourselves daily.

I wholly agree with you on this.

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

In the end..when each of us stand before the LORD at Judgment day, I doubt very, very much He will be addressing anyone as 'Pastor', Bishop, 'Pope' or 'Brother' or 'Sister'.

I don't think He will be calling anyone Pastor, Bishop, Elder, or Pope, but I'm willing to bet He will be pleased to call us brothers and sisters.

[Cal]

Dear Sal,

All I can say is... at least you read our forum. You only saw what you wanted to see, or what you were told to see, or what would knew would show you as a brother in good standing if you said you saw. Or, sadly, you only saw what your mind will let you see anymore, indoctrinated as it is.

But at least you read the forum. Next time try dropping the frightening bias you cling to and you might see something else.

Igzy

[YP0534]

12 Then they will fully use capital L and C, to denote that, yes, we do understand, but there is a LSM/LCS, to which we do not belong! Wow, this is silly, very silly... This is not Love, this is not genuine Christ-likeness, this is not forgiveness, and this is not Christian maturity, the Lord is suffering, I know!!

I am a very big advocate of the historically reviled "capital L and C" nomenclature primarily because it has now been embraced and utilized BY the Local Church itself in its recent lawsuit against Harvest House that was appealed to the United States Supreme Court.

The Local Church is the organization which has now written this name on its papers and put it before our nation's highest justice court. At a certain point in the litigation they realized what they had done and tried to take it back in a footnote. Trouble is, the veil has been lifted and the farcical objection to their name is at this point ended.

The Local Church is a denomination which is organized according to guidelines promulgated and frequently revised by Living Stream Ministry. I am NOT a member of this organization that sued Harvest House.

There's nothing silly about it.

I'm just not.



Brother, buy the Lord's eyesalve!

[OBW]

My primary concern in the thread “where do we go from here?” is to point back to normalcy. As a collection of forms, the LC was quite peculiar. It redefined almost every significant word of the Christian experience. It changed all of its forms of meeting such that there was little obvious resemblance. Layered onto that were the direct statements about the “errors” of Christianity — how divisive the name outside the building was; how divisive their Lord’s table was. The list goes on and on.

One thing that has concerned me — both here and in the other forum — is that it too often appears that we who have left the LC too often have taken the LC with us in many ways. I would not say that many of the forms to which we grew accustomed were wrong, just that they are nothing more than forms. If others follow similar forms, that’s great. But if they do not, it seems that our tendency is to judge everything based on the LC ways. (If you think this does not apply to you, that is OK. I'm not saying that we all do it, or that we do it all the time. It is just something that I keep finding in myself where I thought it would not be. I figure that it must be a fairly common experience.)

I’ve been away from the LC for over 21 years now. The only think like a meeting I have been to in that time was my mother’s funeral last year. (It was more than annoying, and should not have happened the way it did.)

But in those 21 years, I have had to fight with one old LC issue after another as I joined more and more closely with the group I changed to back in 1987. I even had the idea that I should try to teach them some of the LC ways. Fortunately, I tend to be more of a planner than a doer, so I never actually tried. I have fretted about being in the choir; about playing my guitar in worship services (acoustic 12-string); about the change to more modern music, including electric guitar and all that goes with it; about there actually being candles in the services (not lit to anyone, but as a visual testimony of God’s working in our lives). Even recently about allowing women to be among those who preach in the church.

Some refer to “Pastor Andy” and others just to “Andy.” Our assembly is so diverse socially that despite the conservatism you would expect from a “Bible church” there is no way that everyone voted for McCain. Besides the multitude of gospel outreach efforts, we also dig water wells in the Sudan, and provide aid to single parents who never get anywhere near our church or any other — no strings attached.

Lee and the LC liked to say “drop your concept.” Well, what about our LC concepts? I think that where we go from here is “forward in Christ.” If we have a preconceived idea of what that is, we might just miss it. I do not pretend that where I am is “the way” but am joyous in Christ at the progress. Each of us should be doing the same. I will not even fault those who find themselves among the more liturgical of Christian groups. We have friends that have recently begun to meet with a small break-away from the Anglican church. I would never have gone that route. But despite the separation from what they considered a better assembly, they felt a calling of God to do that. I will not stand in opposition, even if it is not the direction I would take.

Where do we go from here? The only answer is onward and upward. There is no single way, other than the way of the cross. And the cross may lead each of us in different directions. But those directions are only with respect to our living here on earth. If each of those directions is “forward in Christ” then we are all going the same way.

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by OBW

Lee and the LC liked to say “drop your concept.” Well, what about our LC concepts? I think that where we go from here is “forward in Christ.” If we have a preconceived idea of what that is, we might just miss it.

Well said, OBW.

Unfortunately, there's also an LC concept about those who drop LC concepts.

They're called "opposers" and are treated as if diseased...

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Toledo

If someone is a pastor, a shepherd, one who is gifted for taking care of the saints, then that is simply a fact. We don't use "elder" or "evangelist" or "prophet" as a title. Why should we use "pastor"? The practice in modern denominations of calling someone "pastor" has very little to do with who is gifted to shepherd. Rather it is the name given to one who has a leading position.

My point exactly ! The LC didn't use the word Pastor when referring to the Elders of each locality. But in my eyes, the Elders WERE the Pastors! They're the ones who shared the messages handed down from Pope Lee.

They're the ones that went to the meetings with Brother Lee in closed quarters where the rest of us couldn't go.

Again, for clarity's sake, I'm not saying one is right and one is wrong..it's pure observation. I can tell pretty much, who is a preacher and who is a teacher. And I know not everyone who holds a title of Pastor IS a pastor!

For the most part, it doesn't bother me if a person is a Pastor or Elder. In most Christian churches, the pastor is acknowledged as Pastor Jon or Pastor Mary. But there are Pastors who simply go by Joe or John or Mary.

John Hagee is a well known 'Pastor' in San Antonio. He's a Preacher to me..not a teacher. Some people call him Pastor Hagee and some call him "Hagee". or John Hagee.

We would never call Brother Lee...just "Lee" while in the LC. It was always "Brother Lee". I wonder what would have happened if we would have said 'Lee gave a very good message.'...silly me. We would have been 'corrected'.

I'm merely pointing out observations that have helped me break the wall of the LC and Christianity.

Nope, I don't buy it. We'd call someone "Brother" or "Sister" because they were a brother or a sister. It wasn't a title, but simply a term of address (and it beat having to remember everybody's name!).

They were/are our brothers & sisters in Christ but it really stood out in the LC in comparison to other fellowship groups I've met with. Most Christians who were never in the LC can't relate to what we went through. Even the good stuff is foreign to them.

And though we consider ourselves brothers and sisters in Christ, ya know, very few of us really KNOW each other like siblings do (Although not all siblings really know each other either. )

I prefer to address people by their names personally speaking. It has a warmer, personal touch..than 'Brother so & so'. Again..that is MY PERSONAL PREFERENCE!

The "Brothers' House" was where the brothers lived. Same with the "Sisters' House". A sisters meeting was a meeting for sisters. That's not a title; that's simply a fact.

Yes..it's a fact. I know that. No qualms there...just pointing out how we in the LC were different from most Christian fellowships, as if WE didn't know it! LOL! My experience living with families or in sisters' houses was overall good.. for others, it was not.

We call each other saints because we are saints, but we don't call anyone Saint Don. Heck, we hardly even say "Saint Paul" or "Saint Peter".

Well Saint Toledo I actually SOMETIMES once in a while, do refer to the apostle Paul as Saint Paul. It's fun to throw a curve ball now & then. Oooh. I should go to an LSM/LC meeting and stand up and testify or prophesy or whatever the heck they call it these days and say something like: I enjoyed what SAINT PAUL wrote to the saints in Epheses.

Having our Lord Jesus call us Brothers when we meet HIM will be ok me, if THAT'S what He wants to call me but I'd rather be referred to as HIS BRIDE, HIS WIFE...and a kingly WIFE at that!

This is SISTER SAINT COUNTMEWORTHY signing off now.

[countmeworthy]

Good morning Sister Countmeworthy

And Good Day to you too Brother Hope!

I didn't get a chance to respond to your reference last night but I chuckled when I read it. I was reminded of the times we were told the BROTHERS were SISTERS as we are the Bride of Christ and the SISTERS are brothers because we are sons of GOD and the Brothers of Christ.
What is even funnier or ironic is Sunday evening, the PASTOR of the CHURCH I meet with read the scripture of us being sons of God and told us WOMEN it's ok to be sons of God because the MEN are part of the BRIDE of Christ too.

I am hoping the Lord will renew my old memory and I can put together a book of rememberances

Now Hope. You don't want the Lord to renew your OLD memory. You want Him to renew your mind and thus restore your memory a new so it's fresh.

I'm just ribbin' you.

Mal 3:16-18, Then those who feared the LORD spoke to one another, and the LORD gave attention and heard it, and a book of remembrance was written before Him for those who fear the LORD and who esteem His name. "And they will be Mine," says the LORD of hosts, "on the day that I prepare My own possession, and I will spare them as a man spares his own son who serves him." So you will again distinguish between the righteous and the wicked, between one who serves God and one who does not serve Him. NASB

Yeppers! Our names are not only written in the Lamb's book of LIFE but we're going to have a book of Rememberance on us too! I've been told everytime we talk to one another or in this case write to one another of the things of the LORD and His Wonderous Ways, it is being recorded in the book of Rememberance.

Oh there's going to be all kinds of goodies awaiting us !! First and foremost, we're going to see our Beloved LORD and KING Jesus face to face. To Behold the BEAUTY of the LORD!!! and to inquire in His Temple. Can you FATHOM that dear brother Hope ?

We'll have our GLORIFIED BODIES. We'll be clothed in white raiment garments. We'll be wearing crowns of Rejoicing, Glory, Righteousness, of LIFE, and an Incorruptable crown. We're going to be given our assignments..where we're going to rule and reign with Christ for a Thousand years...we're going to be doing things we have never been able to do in these human, earthly bodies..and finally, we will never suffer sorrow, pain, or death.

Come QUICKLY LORD JESUS!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Hope]

Dear, Your innocent brother, Sal

Steve has invited any who desire to reply to your post. I hope it will be acceptable to you if I give you a little response.

You referred to me specifically. See the quote below.

16. Brother, please trust in the LORD and read your New Testament until you see these “fleshly” forums and this World (and its knowledge, and things) as nothing but fake, corrupted, and in total depravity and decay! I always feel sad whenever I read brother Don Ruthge, as he always write the words which a soul uses to express the things of the spiritual realm but his points, messages, stories are far-far from it; oh that he may see it that he will see it! O Lord.

Dear Sal, I am well aware of 1 Cor 2:12-16, Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words. But a natural (soulish) man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God; for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised. But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no man. NASB

I am exercised to be a spiritual person. Your post is very long but contains almost nothing specific. I am always open to help and desire to be expressing the real things. Could you be more specific? Please note that the Spirit of God is always very specific. That is called conviction. While the accuser of the brethren is very general, that is called accusation.

Here we see reference to the Spirit. John 16:8, "And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin, and righteousness, and judgment; NASB

On the other hand, Rev 12:10m, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, who accuses them before our God day and night. NASB

Thank you in advance for pointing out where I am far-far from the spiritual realm.

I have some questions regarding the following statement you made.

34. There are couple of million of saints in the church-life, but not are concerned with it.. praise the LORD : )

Are there really “couple of million of saints in the church-life”? Where did you get this number? How many have you witnessed yourself? I remember hearing wild exaggerated numbers in the past that were not real. Thus I am very skeptical of this statement.

Not all the saints would write to you and to many of the others who left the church when she was week, when she needed you all the most, these are my convictions voice and not of any conferences or messages, not the words of the Living Stream's serving saints but mine ... the voice which is in agony and which is week and desperate to call out to all the sheep, all the saints, to all those who are not fed, not valued, not looked upon .. Oh brother Steve, may I ask you to please take out your words off the internet and your mind --- and will you join the Spirit of the God, will you fast on God alone, will you be able to leave USA and visit some lone place, to have a reflection , a reflection on your life and on what have you done so far? the damages you have caused to the innocent saints and to the whole Body!! Will leave this country or wherever you are to just step back a little and to spend some time with the LORD, serving some saints in some small locality may be...

Dear Sal, perhaps Steve has indeed sought out the Lord and done all the things you chide him for not doing. Perhaps it is due to much reflection that he has come forward.

Also consider your charge, “the damages you have caused to the innocent saints and to the whole Body!!.” Does this admonition apply to the LSM and the blended brothers? Do things cut both ways?

Dear Sal, consider what the sister Suannehill wrote.

Also please consider the following passage, Matt 7:2-5, "For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. And why do you look at the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me take the speck out of your eye,' and behold, the log is in your own eye? You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother's eye. NASB

I again lost me pin-pointed message but this is what I had, I gave you brother. This could be a waste of time to you, ...then please forgive me. Or if you saw my heart and the message, ...God bless you brother. I'll still love you. Brother,

I have many things to say, as much as it may become like your journal on the internet... but I do not seek to do so ...all I wished was that let my heart talk to your heart.

O Lord, Jesus. O Lord, O Lord Jesus.

I am looking forward to the opportunity to receive your specific exposing of my soulishness. I am anxious to learn in what ways I am “far-far” from “the spiritual realm.”

I am also eagerly waiting for some documentation of the “couple of million of the saints in the church life.

Hope, Don Rutledge

A believer in Christ Jesus who is seeking to become a true disciple

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Toledo

If someone is a pastor, a shepherd, one who is gifted for taking care of the saints, then that is simply a fact. We don't use "elder" or "evangelist" or "prophet" as a title. Why should we use "pastor"? The practice in modern denominations of calling someone "pastor" has very little to do with who is gifted to shepherd. Rather it is the name given to one who has a leading position.

Nope, I don't buy it. We'd call someone "Brother" or "Sister" because they were a brother or a sister. It wasn't a title, but simply a term of address (and it beat having to remember everybody's name!). We call each other saints because we are saints, but we don't call anyone Saint Don. Heck, we hardly even say "Saint Paul" or "Saint Peter".

It's easy to delegate these comments to mere semantics, but these are the kinds of things that set off alarms when believers come together to fellowship. The issues are on both sides, those within and those without the LC's. For example, we made an issue of "going to church," yet at the same time we were proud of the fact that "church" could be a verb, as in "going to assemble." Years ago, when Christians had few options but to choose between archaic denominations, the concept of "going to church" was worth critiquing, because it mainly implied Catholic Mass or some other non-gospel edifice, for all of us here in the "rust belt."

Today the situation has changed dramatically, attrition has dwindled the attendance in archaic denominations, and the English language has followed these changes. All the genuine Christians I know, when they say "go to church" they mean to gather with other believers to worship God. For me to protest this phrase is to introduce confusion, not truth or fellowship. Can't they mean in their heart, "I am going to assemble" when they say "I am going to church?" Today's "churches" no longer even look like they once did. A while back the Catholic diocese couldn't even give away their old structures. No one wanted them. The were architecturally obsolete. Many growing congregations are finding that old schools are extremely suitable for their gatherings. They have auditoriums, classrooms, and offices which churches readily adapt to. I often meet with a congregation which is in a school. Columbus Christian Assembly does too. Maybe the time will come when Christians will say "I am going to school" when they "gather with other believers to worship God."

I am still uncomfortable applying a title, such as "pastor," to a leading brother, whether or not he is truly gifted as a shepherd or pastor ... but I am changing. We used to say "Brother Bill" but never "Saint Bill," but is there really any difference? We also would call those inside the LC's "saints," but those outside as "Christians," but was that just another elitist term to make us feel special? Does the Bible really forbid us from titling gifted members of the body? I would rather just call them by a title, than to give them all those special perks, elevating their status far above what the Bible permits, and then call them "Brother What-What."

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I am still uncomfortable applying a title, such as "pastor," to a leading brother, whether or not he is truly gifted as a shepherd or pastor ... but I am changing. We used to say "Brother Bill" but never "Saint Bill," but is there really any difference? We also would call those inside the LC's "saints," but those outside as "Christians," but was that just another elitist term to make us feel special? Does the Bible really forbid us from titling gifted members of the body? I would rather just call them by a title, than to give them all those special perks, elevating their status far above what the Bible permits, and then call them "Brother What-What."

Brother Ohio:

Just a word.

I came into and out of the LC rather quickly after having a strong RCC background.

The way the LC folks referred to certain brothers as Brother always bothered me but it was not uniform - you are brother Ohio regardless, right? I often chose to not capitalize the term when writing to avoid confusion with a title of respect but we use words - what can we do when others use the same words differently?

Similarly, being from New Orleans, I've always had many perspectives on use of the term "saints"...

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by YP0534

The way the LC folks referred to certain brothers as Brother always bothered me but it was not uniform - you are brother Ohio regardless, right? I often chose to not capitalize the term when writing to avoid confusion with a title of respect but we use words - what can we do when others use the same words differently?

brother YP,

The word "brother" has extra baggage for me too, going to a Catholic HS, most of my teachers were "Brothers."

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Ohio

brother YP,

The word "brother" has extra baggage for me too, going to a Catholic HS, most of my teachers were "Brothers."

Exactly so.
Bro. Leo taught me calculus.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

brother YP,

The word "brother" has extra baggage for me too, going to a Catholic HS, most of my teachers were "Brothers."

To Ohio and YP and the rest of the men of God on this forum...I have this to say to you:

Oh Brother.

-> to my silly, corny comment.

[Hope]

Question:
When I hear the word “Christianity” or something like that am I suppose to have some kind of warm and fuzzy feeling? I have read so much on this and the other forum about the criticism regarding modern Christianity heard in the local churches.
Where do we go from here? Point number one: This is not 1965 or 1971 or 1978 etc. I have no interest is becoming 20 or 26 or 33 again. I sure do not want to go back to the Mississippi river bottoms of Eastern Arkansas and chop cotton. I have no interest in going back to the Southern Baptist denomination. I am not interested in going back to the “wonderful glorious” days of the “church in Dallas” on Gus Thomason Road.

When I was sitting in some local church gathering, and heard “we need to reach the good material,” or “serve the ministry,” or “serve the office,” or “the new way,” or “consolidate churches to the strategic cities,” or “the co-workers of the Lord’s Recovery,” or “one with the ministry,” or “God’s Move on the Earth today,” or “the second stage of the Lord’s Recovery in the USA, the stage of Truth,” or “just be one,” etc. I can go on like this for some time, then I should have had enough discernment to disagree. At least I should have disagreed inwardly and had a definite concept that did not agree. In the same way, it is okay to have a disagreement with many practices that go on in modern Christianity. It does bother me when I read a post about someone needing to break out of some LC concept in order to meet with an assembly of believers. Maybe that assembly of believers is short on some of the reality of Christ. Yes, you may have learned about clergy laity and rituals and forms in the lc but could it be the Lord in your spirit protesting when the chalky faced song leader calls the congregation to worship with the same rendition of Holy Holy Holy that has been sung for the last 75 years.

There is the spiritual reality and there is practice, practicality. Chairs or Pews? Platform for a speaker or just a level floor? Chairs in one direction or in four directions? Refer to the members as “brother, sister” or by given name? Pray silently or pray one by one or pray reciting the same prayer all together or all pray at once who so ever pray whatever? Dance or knell? If you dance should it be slow or fast? The practice is just the practice. But is there any reality? Is the practice from Christ or from tradition? People need a place to sit. Should it be on the floor, in chairs or in pews? Is it okay to consider why such strange specialized things as pews?

Let me be a little harsh. For me this may be for the first time on the forum. If you are having the heeby jeebies when someone says Pastor Jim or Brother John or you hear a guitar or a tamborine or someone call O Lord Jesus or pray read you need to get beyond that. On the other hand, you may realize in S/spirit that something is off or impure etc. We believers should not be some kind of lemmings who have no discernment. Just as there are many problems in the LSM/LC now and in the past, so there are many problems in Christianity.

I can be with brothers in Christ and receive Christ even if they have clerical robes on. I can be with brothers in Christ who serve the LSM and receive Christ. Yet I am not going to call some Catholic clergyman Father. I am not going to go gaga when some LSM cadre starts in with brother Lee said. Once a group called the gospel team showed up in Dallas. They demanded I set up a time with the various campus saints. We had a gathering in Arlington with about 50 brothers and sisters. Some from Austin came up including Don Looper. One of the gospel team coordinators was doing his thing. He kept declaring “Brother Lee said.” Finally I corrected him and said we should say “the Bible says.” Did that ever set him off! Were they ever invited back? Not on your life. Did the bad report on Don Rutledge go out? Do bears live in the woods? Poor ole Don Looper even got blamed. Was I somehow wrong for being bothered by this respect of persons? How about the fawning over leaders by some christians?

Now let us consider the exhibition currently put on by Sal. The poor brother seems to have zero discernment but plenty of critical attitude. It is classic. All is well in the LC and all on the forum are bitter and negative. In the same way, sometimes we are treated to all is well in Christianity and all in the LC are bitter and negative.

Where do we go from here? Please do not tell me we now swallow anything that comes with a Christian wrapping and we toss everything of WL or the LC.

Here are a few verses to consider for our desire to go on from here.

Heb 6:1, Therefore leaving the elementary teaching about the Christ, let us press on to maturity,

2 Cor 7:1, Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Phil 3:12-14, Not that I have already obtained it, or have already become perfect, but I press on in order that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

Col 1:28-29, And we proclaim Him, admonishing every man and teaching every man with all wisdom, that we may present every man complete in Christ. And for this purpose also I labor, striving according to His power, which mightily works within me.

James 1:4, And let endurance have its perfect result, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.


Hope, Don Rutledge
A believer in Christ Jesus who is seeking to be a true disciple.

[countmeworthy]

[QUOTE=finallyprettyokay;4777]

Hello.

Welcome back FPO...hope you aren't too cold in Oregon, this time of the year.

I wonder sometimes if it may be just a little harder for the women among us [to post] (example - me)

I can't speak for you FPO. As for me...I'll probably get hammered or ignored for what I'm about to say but I find most of the threads.....hmmmm..let's say, not to my liking. I UNDERSTAND the need to sort through stuff from the past but some of these threads are to the tune of debating one another..and sometimes I get the sense, some people are trying to impress the readers with how intellectually spiritual they are. If that makes sense.

Now fellas...don't take it personal. You all seem to enjoy hashing it out with each other or discussing topics that don't interest me much.

And for all I know, you fellas might find me boring or over the top or under the table. I dunno! I don't get much feedback..except for lately.

We are a bunch of really strong folks here -- that is clear. Thank you Sister CountMeWorthy for your courage.

It's easier to write my thoughts than to express them in person unless we are in heavenly fellowship. I don't know how 'expressive' I'd be with this bunch in person.

About how we all go on -- all the different variations there are -- - French film maker Jean Renoir, son the famous painter, makes films that often show an issue or experience from many different sides. Here's the quote -- "The problem with life is everyone has their own good reasons".

Ain't that the truth !! And if they don't have good reasons....they blame everyone else for what's gone wrong with their lives!

My post LC life would look like a maze in one of those old spook houses at a carnival. Man, I have been all over the place and bumped into things all along the way.

So has mine FPO. I have my share of 'skeletons in the closet'. God knows what they were. Truth is..I had hidden sin...unconfessed sin. I tried to justify my actions/behavior to God.

He didn't buy it. Once I 'threw in the towel' and gave up..the Lord delivered me from the belly of Jonah's whale.

Awww. I could BREATH FRESH AIR again! The Word of God truly came alive to me...it's like it all came together. LIFE in Christ Jesus actually CLICKED in me! I KNOW what it is to be truly FORGIVEN. I KNOW the power of REPENTENCE. I KNOW what it is to be sanctified, to be set apart. I know what it means to be in the world but not OF it.

We didn't really learn this...let me rephrase this..I didn't learn the depths of repentance, the POWER of repentance, what it means to be truly Sanctified in the LC. When I got saved, yes, I repented and had an awesome Spirit filled Salvation. I went around saying all the time "Lord, I repent".."We repent". Perhaps I was truly repentent for whatever it was..but looking back, I was what we considered 'good material'..'a good sister'.

What did I know about being a 'good sister'..being 'good material' ? NOW I know the real meaning of Repentance. When you shed buckets of tears for not obeying the Voice of the Lord, when you shed tears for putting Him on the back burner like I did, when you shed buckets of tears for allowing yourself to have been decieved...and I take FULL responsibility, my life stopped being a maze. I still get off track here and there but I find the path to the 'straight' and 'narrow' real quick !

I sometimes thought I would be in that maze for the rest of my life. Because I really was doing my best, and for my own good reasons, I would pray (to a God I didn't even think I believed in, mind you) "Please, know I am doing my best here. Please don't let me be deceived again, and don't let me deceive myself". And I would also say (to that unknown God) "Don't be mad at me, I am confused but not meaning to be stubborn". Wild prayers, huh? But God is good and God is real and I am mostly out of the worst of the maze now. Mostly

FPO...there's nothing like being HONEST with our GOD. He knows all. He know the thoughts and intents of our hearts. He's not going to leave us or forsake us. But He's not going to impose Himself on us either. If we PUSH HIM away, He's going to stay away. If you push someone out of your life long enough, they're gonna get the picture that you don't want them in their life.

Don't stay away so long anymore. I need a fighting SISTER here! I keep trying to LEAVE this place..and it never fails...when I think I'm done, something NEW brings me back to post.

WHY LORD WHY????????

And Merry Christmas, too.

If I don't post again in the next few days, you TOO have a MERRY CHRISTMAS. And for those who don't do Christmas...Have a HAPPY THURSDAY ! Remember...HAPPY are those people...Happy are those people who are in such a case. HAPPY are those people whose GOD IS the LORD!
Praise You Lord Jesus. Praise You Holy Spirit. Praise You Father God. We LOVE YOU JESUS!!!

[Indiana]

Sal,

"In your statement #4 you say that nobody is perfect. This was what Brother Lee said about his son, Philip, after major damage and division was caused by him in the churches..."

pdf copy
www.twoturmoils.com/NobodyPerfect.pdf

[SpeakersCorner]

Concerning the phrase "going to church," in it the noun "church" denotes an institution or abstraction, not a building. The building is a part of that abstraction and in fact is a metonymy, an object that comes to represent an entire abstraction. We do the same thing in using the phrase "going to school." When a young person says they're "in school" they mean they're in college.

The banning of the word "church" as a synonym for "meeting hall" was important in more ways than one. First, it reminds us that the original meaning of the word "ecclesia" from which "church" ultimately is derived, is us, the "called out ones." Second, it helps cement in our minds that there are not a whole bunch of local churches in every community. If we call each building that, we effectively nullify the teaching of the ground of locality.

So it's a conundrum (that is, if you buy into the ground of locality teaching which many here don't): Should we accept the standard usage of the word to be one with our culture or should we stand against it to make a principled statement?

The answer: follow the Spirit.


SC

[YP0534]

SC:

I've come to release the word "church" back to its common uses (since controlling language is tilting windmills anyway) and apply the Brethren translation "assembly" for principled statement purposes.

I commend this approach to all.

I have been told that the main reason "church" was retained in the Recovery Version was to be different from the Brethren but in hindsight I think that clearly wasn't such a great idea...

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

Concerning the phrase "going to church," in it the noun "church" denotes an institution or abstraction, not a building. The building is a part of that abstraction and in fact is a metonymy, an object that comes to represent an entire abstraction. We do the same thing in using the phrase "going to school." When a young person says they're "in school" they mean they're in college.

The banning of the word "church" as a synonym for "meeting hall" was important in more ways than one...... It's a conundrum (that is, if you buy into the ground of locality teaching which many here don't): Should we accept the standard usage of the word to be one with our culture or should we stand against it to make a principled statement?

The answer: follow the Spirit.

SC

OK SC...
I'll be straightforward here before I add my .02 worth.

Your explanation of the word church...came across quite convuleted:

The building is a part of that abstraction and in fact is a metonymy, an object that comes to represent an entire abstraction

In the future for the sake of those who are not as 'intellectual' as you are, could you explain things in simple english? Explanations such as these turn me off and I'm sure turn off others. I hope I'm not coming across brash. I am merely trying to point out possible reasons some people or many people don't jump into these discussions.

Thanks for hearing me out.

Next:

Growing up, MOST of us went to 'church'. We knew we were going to a church service. We were going to Mass or a Protestant service and listen to a Pastor, Minister or Preacher give the Word of God or perform a religious ritual.

All I knew before I got saved was that God was real somewhere in the sky and that He sent His Son Jesus to die on the cross and that He rose again from the dead. I had no clue where the Holy Ghost or Holy Spirit fit in except that He was part of the Trinity.

Enter the LC in the 70s. I get saved. I learn PEOPLE are the church, not a building. WHY because the NEW TESTAMENT explains this following the Gospels!

So we understood WE the saints, the believers are THE church and we didn't go TO CHURCH. We went to MEETINGS in a BUILDING. We didn't have a PASTOR or PRIEST but we did have a LEADING BROTHER who had the TITLE of being an ELDER who ministered the WORD of GOD to us.that came from a message given by Brother LEE in Anaheim. EVERY church in the 'Lord's Recovery' did the same thing.

Hmm. Funny. A person can go to a MASS any part of the world and they will know it's a mass and if they're catholic will feel right at home in the mass no matter what language it's done in.

Following the MESSAGE, not to confuse it with a "SERMON", the congregation of saints gathered at the MEETING HALL, NOT "the church BUILDING". We never went to the church (the BELIEVERS') building. We went to 'the MEETING HALL'. In the eyes of Brother Lee, a meeting hall was not the same as a CHURCH BUILDING. :rollingeyes2:

We differed from most church (BELIEVERS) gatherings in that we would stand up and give support to the message via testimonies. That is what we called them back then. There were no bells that told you to sit down if you got to long winded. When this happened, the LEADING BROTHERS, known as ELDERS, would boldly stand up and interrupt the person talking. They never told the person (usually a BROTHER) to sit down, they'd say something like "Brothers and Sisters: The Lord this or that. Let's make the testimonies short and to the point, giving everyone a chance to speak, especially those who never get up.
It was their way of getting the testimonies back on track to supporting the message.

This was the case in MY LOCALITY!

Fast forward 30 plus years later. The "LEADING ONE" at the assembly of believers I meet with (Translation: The PASTOR of the church I attend) often tells us WE, the believers ARE the church. He's NOT the only one. Most Ministers of the LIVING WORD of GOD know this and most LIVING, BREATHING Believers and followers of the Lord Jesus Christ who read and study their bibles KNOW this too.

This is NOT a unique teaching to the LC. It never was. Many of us who came from the RCC background or a DENOMINATIONAL background had never picked up a bible so we didn't know that the true Followers of our Lord Jesus Christ were and are THE church.

As for the ground of locality business. Our ONENESS is IN Christ JESUS. PERIOD! Back in the day, the LCrs stood out like SORE thumbs because the UNSPOKEN rule of ONENESS was LOOKING alike, (brothers with white shirts and black ties, short cromped hair. ) Sisters in frompy clothes with no make-up...entering the meeting hall, the CHURCH BUILDING with echoes of "Praise the LORD". Let me say this...THAT WAS GOOD. That was a GOOD THING we did. More people should be praying before the gatherings for the annointing of the Holy Spirit and the Presence of GOD to be manifested during the ministry of the Word or the fellowshipping of the saints.

So for ME, 'the ground of oneness' was 'praying the same way as everyone else, speaking in a 'different' tone when reading the Word of God outloud especially with others in the room, reading the messages together, fellowshipping around what Brother Lee said, dressing alike, looking alike, constantly saying "Praise the Lord for the church!". That's what the 'GROUND of ONENESS' was to me. It was Brother LEE and the church first and foremost...NOT Christ and the church.

One more thing, I believe most of us former LCrs did have our spiritual eyes opened in a good way during part of our tenure in the LC. We were a UNIQUE bunch and forums like this is the proof. We understand where we came from in a way very few other groups do although I'm sure there are others. Do they fellowship like this though? I don't know!

I won't speak for anyone else but when I meet with other believers, I bring with me everything the LORD has shown me and given me including the revelations, insight, knowledge I received in my short time in the LC. I also bring with me the memory of having been a Catholic. I was never a Mormon, a Luthern, a Baptist, a Buddhist or Hindu or Muslim. So that baggage doesn't come with me!

Do I hold on to my past? NO! But my past is part of my makeup. Just like this body is the vessel my soul and spirit drag along.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Indiana

3 What’s wrong with that! What’s wrong if a person is not 100% Christ-like. Life study of Genesis 85 speaks about having bones and dung and feathers in Brother Lee's ministry, similarly brother Nee had his own bones, feathers, and dung -- but do we have to focus on dung or shall we look to the perfect Christ and receive the healthy teaching of a servant of God

7 Whether you succeeded or not, matters not, but what matters is that we all have our life open before the Lord. The Lord will judge all of us and I am not for any further division. I am not that old, may be I am a stupid boy - but even I can say that what Dr. Tomes, Sis Jane, and brother Titus did was silly, .. I am not saying that Sis Jane or many others in the times of br Philip Lee did not suffered, no I am not saying that, but I am saying what they are doing today is silly. There is something called as "past things" and "forgiveness and love". It seems that even Christians are capable of doing politics and envy!!

11 Brother, I read your book, our secret history - and I always wonder, what is point here? - how does it relates to me today or to the churches I have even been to - I always wondered, if you have got a right point and if there are lessons we all can learn and apply to us today, how come then the other brothers and saints did not received you? Truly speaking I don't know. Personally speaking, I believe, you all have something valuable to share, very much priceless, but then the way saints reacts in the Body when touched is alarming and even confusing…

18. I gently ask you, “how you can be an ex-member?”, as we all are the members of the One Body of Christ. The local churches are the local churches and the Body is the Body. Whether the Lord’s recovery has become a LCS or LSM-churches is only a matter of “perspectives” and vain human reasoning and opinions but it has nothing to do with the Eternal Truths that Jesus is the LORD. I believe I am a member in the Body of Christ. And I also see and believe in the grace of God in His recovery today. And I also have heart for those who were once mistreated or those who are confused or bitter: may the Lord heal them and bond them in the Body.

20 One thing which I have noticed here in this country is that people are too vulnerable and easily fooled.. As the internet and the print media is so open and so strong ... people are really attacked by the Satan into the deception and actually into the various deception...

22 All the genuine local churches have fellowship with each other but there is no headquarters or committees that control the churches.

Sal,
On your point #3 you made the statement "What’s wrong if a person is not 100%". Of course none of us are perfect. There only one who is. However that should not be an excuse to willingly committ transgressions against one another. The Bible is our standard and if our behavior and actions are not regulated by the Bible through our regenerated spirit, what life are we living?

On your point #7 you mentioned "There is something called as "past things" and "forgiveness and love"." Brother, it cuts both ways. I do believe there can be forgiveness, but do you think it can be mutual enough to forget the past?

On point #11, history is one way to explain the current situation by looking towards the past. If the brothers and sisters are alarmed, they should be.

On point #18, you had asked Steve how he could be an ex-member. Within the Body of Christ there is no ex-members. We are all included. However locally, the officers heading a locality can determine who can meet and who cannot. So in this sense it was determined Steve cannot meet in his locality.

On point #20, I'm sure the same case can be made with LSM/DCP.

On point #22, you said "but there is no headquarters or committees that control the churches". How is it that LSM sent representatives to head up lawsuits against assemblies that met as the Church in Mansfield, the Church in Columbus, etc. How is it when one of the blended brothers gave a word concerning Steve to an elder in his resident locality, that Steve became disciplined?

Terry

[Hope]

Where do we go from here? An arresting thought!!!

Let me begin with a recent personal experience. At least 10-12 years ago, my son, Daron, gave me four CDs of current Christian music. He also loaded them on my home computer. I work from home on my computer on a regular basis. He showed me how I could listen to the music while I worked. (It must be great to be from the computer literate generation.) One of my absolutely most favorites was Amy Grant. Two of her songs, “Thy Word is a Lamp unto my Feet,” and “El Shaddai” meant so much to me and had inspired me countless times. A few months ago, I was speaking with my son Deric and his wife Jennie about Christian songs and mentioned Amy Grant. (Keep in mind I pretty much keep my head down and am very uninformed regarding trends in Christianity.) They informed me that she had divorced her husband and married the singer Vince Gill. In addition, some Christian radio stations would not now play her songs. Was I ever disappointed!!! I instantly thought, “well that does it. I am not going to listen to her music.” Then I thought, “well I wonder if she just had a good voice. Maybe I was not really blessed by her singing.” I am glad to report that I got through that fairly quickly.

Unfortunately any of us can fall away or have a failure. That does not make our previous experience of Christ invalid nor does it do away with all of our prior service. I have been comforted many times by 2 Tim 2:13, If we are faithless , He remains faithful; for He cannot deny Himself. NASB I have read many posts regarding our past in the local churches which declare that in essence all was null and void due to later failures. I once had a similar problem but with my future. I considered that since I had failed the saints in Dallas so miserably, I was disqualified from service to the Body of Christ. It was so intense that I despised the sound of my voice if I uttered anything in a Christian gathering. Thus for six years I was silent. Of course that was just my own notion. The Lord does not throw us away. Matt 12:20, "A battered reed He will not break off. And a smoldering wick He will not put out.” NASB

Some demand we consider some of the bad fruit of the local churches and lay waste to everything. Matt 3:10, "And the axe is already laid at the root of the trees; every tree therefore that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. And… Matt 7:17-20, "Even so, every good tree bears good fruit; but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. So then, you will know them by their fruits. NASB

Consider the fruit of the Church in Corinth. Division, law suits, drunkenness even at the Lord’s Table and fornication that is even too gross for the unbelievers just to name a few of their problems. This is some really bad fruit!!!

The Darby wing of the brethren had a teaching of declension, that is that things always go from good to bad to failure. The various “ages” in the Bible are due to the failure of the contemporaries of the current age so God’s plan B and plan C etc then comes in and a new age begins. Thus the time of the direct presence of God failed followed by the failure of the age of conscience, followed by the failure of the age of human government, followed by the failure of the age of the fathers, etc until the failure in the church age is followed by the call for overcomers, then the kingdom age until God just finally gives up and ends all and has the New Jerusalem. MY OH MY.

On the other hand, I hold to the fact that God is the God of recovery. (Please forget the use of the word recovery by the LSM.) He will search for the lost sheep “UNTIL” he finds it. The loving Father met the prodigal son while he was still a "LONG WAY OFF." The Lord never gives up on us. Believe me, there is HOPE.

Do not throw out what we gained of Christ in the past. How can we limit what the Lord might do in the future by our bias based on disappointing experiences in the past. Some posters have told me in no uncertain terms that there is no place for any positive balancing testimony on threads where the intent is to deal with all the bad fruit as if that is all there was. This notion is very counter productive and will lead to eventual further disillusionment.

There are two sides to the matter of looking back and evaluating the past. Consider 1 Corinthians chapter ten.

1 Cor 10:5-13, 6 Now these things happened as examples for us, that we should not crave evil things, as they also craved. 7 And do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written, " The people sat down to eat and drink, and stood up to play." 8 Nor let us act immorally, as some of them did, and twenty-three thousand fell in one day. 9 Nor let us try the Lord, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the serpents. 10 Nor grumble, as some of them did, and were destroyed by the destroyer. 11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. 13 No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, that you may be able to endure it. NASB

Likewise consider Philippines chapter three.

Phil 3:12-16, 12 Not that I have already obtained it, or have already become perfect, but I press on in order that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. 13 Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus. 15 Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you; 16 however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained. NASB

Likewise may we practice, Eph 4:31-32, 31 Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. 32 And be kind to one another, tender-hearted, forgiving each other, just as God in Christ also has forgiven you. NASB

I treasure Toledo’s theme verse, Ps 66:12, Thou didst make men ride over our heads; We went through fire and through water; Yet Thou didst bring us out into a place of abundance. NASB

I believe our future is described very well in the following passage:
Zeph 3:9-20, 9 "For then I will give to the peoples purified lips,That all of them may call on the name of the LORD,To serve Him shoulder to shoulder. 10 "From beyond the rivers of Ethiopia My worshipers, My dispersed ones,Will bring My offerings. 11 "In that day you will feel no shame Because of all your deeds By which you have rebelled against Me;For then I will remove from your midst Your proud, exulting ones,And you will never again be haughty On My holy mountain. 12 "But I will leave among you A humble and lowly people,And they will take refuge in the name of the LORD. 13 "The remnant of Israel will do no wrong And tell no lies,Nor will a deceitful tongue Be found in their mouths;For they shall feed and lie down With no one to make them tremble."

14 Shout for joy, O daughter of Zion!Shout in triumph, O Israel!Rejoice and exult with all your heart, O daughter of Jerusalem! 15 The LORD has taken away His judgments against you, He has cleared away your enemies.The King of Israel, the LORD, is in your midst;You will fear disaster no more. 16 In that day it will be said to Jerusalem: "Do not be afraid, O Zion;Do not let your hands fall limp. 17 "The LORD your God is in your midst,A victorious warrior. He will exult over you with joy, He will be quiet in His love, He will rejoice over you with shouts of joy. 18 "I will gather those who grieve about the appointed feasts — They came from you, O Zion; The reproach of exile is a burden on them. 19 "Behold, I am going to deal at that time With all your oppressors, I will save the lame And gather the outcast,And I will turn their shame into praise and renown In all the earth. 20 "At that time I will bring you in,Even at the time when I gather you together; Indeed, I will give you renown and praise Among all the peoples of the earth,When I restore your fortunes before your eyes,"Says the LORD. NASB

We have a wonderful hymn which is based on these verses. Come visit us and we can sing it together.

Hope, Don Rutledge

A believer who is seeking to be a true disciple.

John 8:31-33, Jesus therefore was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, "If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. "

[SpeakersCorner]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

OK SC...
I'll be straightforward here before I add my .02 worth.

Your explanation of the word church...came across quite convuleted:

In the future for the sake of those who are not as 'intellectual' as you are, could you explain things in simple english? Explanations such as these turn me off and I'm sure turn off others. I hope I'm not coming across brash. I am merely trying to point out possible reasons some people or many people don't jump into these discussions.

Thanks for hearing me out.

Yeah, I feared it would be read that way. I decided to go ahead and take the chance. Guess it backfired.

As for the convolutedness of it, allow me to try to rephrase what I wanted to say.

1. It's okay to say "going to church." It's standard English.

2. Still, there's a reason why we rejected this years ago and it relates to the very core theology of the local churches. For those who have rejected this theology of locality, then there's no good reason to avoid the phrase "going to church." For those who still harbor some belief that maybe God really did intend just one church per city, there is reason to hesitate.

3. Rather than have a one-size fits all answer, we should just follow the leading. For example, when I'm with non-LCers, I usually say, "going to church" and refer to the building as a church. When I'm with oldtimers from the LC, I avoid this usually. It depends on my feeling in the situation but these are the general rules I follow.

4. As for that ten-dollar word "metonymy," it's something very few people know of. I like it because it names a kind of symbolism in a specific way. But I understand why some would be put off by such a term.


SC

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

4. As for that ten-dollar word "metonymy," it's something very few people know of. I like it because it names a kind of symbolism in a specific way.

Not lost on everyone and quite accurate.

Of course, the choir already knows the lyrics, too...

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by SpeakersCorner

Rather than have a one-size fits all answer, we should just follow the leading. For example, when I'm with non-LCers, I usually say, "going to church" and refer to the building as a church. When I'm with oldtimers from the LC, I avoid this usually. It depends on my feeling in the situation but these are the general rules I follow.

Point well made ! That's exactly how I do things too. When I talk to my LC friends, I normally tell them I went to a church meeting or gathering. With my non-LC Christian friends, I talk as in 'going to church'.

I personally could care less about the ground of locality. Maybe I never 'got it'. BUT I got the part of 'Building the church and edifying the saints'. THAT is one teaching I got in the LC I hold on to. I don't think many people see it..but oh well, if GOD has given ME that Revelation and Insight, I better obey the Vision He's given me! I'm going to have to answer to HIM at the Bema Seat, not to Lee or even the pastor of 'my church'.

4. As for that ten-dollar word "metonymy," it's something very few people know of. I like it because it names a kind of symbolism in a specific way. But I understand why some would be put off by such a term

.
Oh yes..I understand completely. I remember a few years ago the word 'paradigm and paradigm shift' were the latest rave on the vocabulary scene. A few people began tossing the word around & I suspected they did that on purpose to show off. Well, that MODEL of a word has shifted and somewhat declined among the vocabulary elitists! It's still used but I haven't heard it used as much as I did in the late 90s.

Btw, these days, the younger crowd use the word 'CRAZY' to express something other than it's original meaning. It took me a while to '''GET IT".

[Indiana]

I deleted the 10 excerpts from Sal's 2nd letter.

I had much to say in response to Sal, including addressing further notable assertions he made in his 2nd letter, but I wanted to wait for others to post first. He wasn't planning to write again, and will not be making his own posts, of course.

His was a thorough display of a mentality of HUGE DENIAL that pervades the Local Church System of today that began at the top many years ago and now imbeds the hearts and minds of the current young people. He made many, many assertions in two long letters that I felt could be publicly addressed for all the readers to view both his charges, and our responses.

(Maybe there is a rule on the forum I am not aware of about making such posts as brother Sal's)

[YP0534]

unbelievable

The need for revival is not that “what we are” is something un-Biblical or wrong but that “what we are” today is perhaps not-sufficient to bring the Lord back.

Again I plead, buy the Lord's eyesalve.

[TLFisher]

Indiana, what is your response to Sal?

Terry

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Indiana

Life study of Genesis 85 speaks about having bones and dung and feathers in Brother Lee's ministry, similarly brother Nee had his own bones, feathers, and dung -- but do we have to focus on dung or shall we look to the perfect Christ and receive the healthy teaching of a servant of God

The trouble is that there are bones and feathers and dung which you are accepting of unawares.

You have cited one of brother Lee's messages. It is actually message 88. Reviewing that message, I was struck with a particular section. This is how it appears now:

THE SECRET TO BEING PERFECTED TO BE A PILLAR

Let me now tell you the secret to being solidly perfected to be a strong pillar for the Lord's move. Certain brothers have been perfected because they have had no concepts of their own. Recently, one brother declared strongly that he only knows to follow the ministry of Brother Lee and to absorb everything of this ministry. There have been others among us who were quite opinionated. They often said, "Brother Lee says such-and-such. Is this right? Is the church right? Just a week ago, I learned about a mistake made by the church." None of these opinionated ones has yet been perfected. But those who haven been perfected to be pillars are not like this. Even when they see certain mistakes, they forget about them, having no time to waste discussing them. They only desire to soak in all the positive things.

Here is the way it was printed in 1987, however:

THE SECRET TO BEING PERFECTED TO BE A PILLAR

Let me now tell you the secret to being solidly perfected to be a strong pillar for the Lord's move. Brothers like Benson Phillips and John So have been perfected because they have had no concepts of their own. Recently, Brother Benson declared strongly that he only knows to follow the ministry of Brother Lee. When John So stayed with us in Los Angeles, he knew nothing except to absorb everything of this ministry. Do not think he is not intelligent. No, he is very clear. However, during the same years John So was in Los Angeles, there were others among us who were quite opinionated. They often said, "Brother Lee says such-and-such. Is this right? Is the church right? Just a week ago, I learned about a mistake made by the church." None of these opinionated ones has yet been perfected. But John So and Benson Phillips were not like this. Even when they saw certain mistakes, they forgot about them, having no time to waste discussing them. They only desired to soak in all the positive things.

John So's name was deleted from among the feathers, bones and dung found in LS Genesis 88.

But his name still appears among the feathers, bones and dung in Elders' Training Book 10:

An article entitled "Being Realistic" was published in a periodical entitled The Word and the Testimony. The author of this article is John So, and the editors of the periodical are John Ingalls and Bill Mallon. This article insinuates that I am like the Japanese army when it invaded and occupied the Philippines in the Second World War. This implies that I invaded the church in Anaheim, taking it and possessing it in order to make it "the church of Witness Lee." The article goes on to indicate that the meeting on Ball Road in Anaheim is no longer a local church, because it has lost its ground. According to this article, the ground of the church in Anaheim has become a person (Witness Lee) and his work and ministry, and it is now occupied by us, just as the site of the temple in Jerusalem is occupied today by the Moslems. Is this not a perverted word?

In another portion of this article, under the heading "The Nicolaitans," I am categorized by innuendo as a Nicolaitan. In the way of innuendo, I am also likened to Balaam, who peddled the word of God in order to make money.

This article by John So also likens me to Jezebel, who called herself a prophetess and killed all the prophets of God, making herself the unique oracle of God. Is this not a perverted word that fulfills Acts 20:30?

The worst feathers, bones and dung are the ones you swallow without knowing it.

This is why we post here.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by YP0534

The trouble is that there are bones and feathers and dung which you are accepting of unawares.

The worst feathers, bones and dung are the ones you swallow without knowing it.

This is why we post here.

Thanks for the quote YP0534. For those like myself that began puchasing Living Stream publications in the 90's, you wouldn't know what was ommitted from previous print editions.
For me was the obvious case of erasing brothers from the Recovery's history was taking away credit from the brothers who labored on the RcV New Testament. In the 1985 edition credit was given to John Ingalls, Bill Duane, and Bill Mallon. By the 1991 edtion their names were ommitted.

Speaking of feathers, bones, and dung, allow me to give a testimony. In my wife's culture, the national fish is called a Milkfish or Bangus. It's a fish with more bones than most fish. As parents, we need to remove the bones so our children can eat the meat.
Even if you have a child crawling on the carpet and the child finds a small piece of dung, the love for the child you will not look the other way and allow the child to ingest the dung. You'll remove the dung so the child won't touch it.
Same applies to this forum. Most of us here saw the meat in this ministry and took the meat. When it came to the the feathers, bones, and dung, if you don't point out the feathers, bones and the dung how would anyone know? You just cannot pretend to not see it and ignorantly ingest it.

Terry

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Terry

For me was the obvious case of erasing brothers from the Recovery's history was taking away credit from the brothers who labored on the RcV New Testament. In the 1985 edition credit was given to John Ingalls, Bill Duane, and Bill Mallon. By the 1991 edtion their names were ommitted.

Actually, Terry, it's not inappropriate that the 1991 revised RcV omits those brothers' names. Lee was responsible for notes and outlines but they labored upon the text only.

The 1991 and following text is not the same text.

Witness Lee was fond of speaking about the "taste" of "The Ministry" but I would testify that I have never been able to acquire a taste for the revised RcV text.

I was excited about it when I heard it came out. The lack of proper footnotes in Romans and the italicized notes in John and Hebrews were obvious deficiencies in the 1985 RcV. I had been ejected from the Local Church in Spring of 1989 and wasn't even aware that a revision was officially in the works, although it seemed obvious that it would be eventually. And the LS Leviticus I had attended left me with RcV pamphlet versions so I figured an entire Bible would come out one day. I had no contact whatsoever with the Local Church from the day I moved away at the end of 1990. A few years later I moved back for a job and around the Spring of 1994 I learned on the Internet (my how times have changed!) that a revision had been published. I reestablished contact with those people as soon as I could and arranged to buy a copy of the revised RcV from them. I figured they surely wouldn't begrudge me wanting to buy a Bible.

As an outsider and not in that good of a job, it was expensive. But the text was so nice and uniform inside! Romans had been given footnotes and the italics in John and Hebrews were gone. I kind of preferred the 1985 layout of single column but that was obviously just my preference. Also, I would have preferred if that leading brother had sold me a black cover instead of a red cover but I guess they were just sold out of the black ones and he didn't tell me I had a choice. But the binding was much improved over the ones that literally fell apart from 1985. We had the color chart of the 70 Weeks sewn right in, the little chart from God's New Testament Economy, and it was just better in so many ways. In any case, I myself had waited for nearly a decade for this revision and I was very thankful for it.

But very quickly I realized that it wasn't quite right. The language in the footnotes had been "polished" in ways that didn't quite sit right with me. I was willing to maybe overlook that as merely my opinion. But then, as I was saying, the text itself was different! The brother who sold it to me candidly confessed when I complained that he had been bothered by the revised translation of John 4:24, where "reality" had been removed from the text and "truthfulness" had been substituted. What an exchange! Had the ones revising the text never actually READ the ministry of Witness Lee to know why this word was better translated as it had been in the original RcV?!? Pitiful! This brother then testified that he'd gotten used to the new translation and had come to prefer it. (This was when I finally realized that the Local Church had become Laodicea as prophesied.)

I have multiple copies of the revisions of the RcV but I rarely touch them. My little meeting group uses copies of the 1985 edition, some of which I've collected over the years from used book stores. I've got the multiple copies of the revisions in part because I have awaited the day that the Lord would show me how "truthfulness" is a matter of "recovery" over "reality" but for some reason that day has never come and those revised versions continue to require regular dusting.

I was blessed soon after I joined this forum that I was able to write to John Ingalls and thank him for his part in producing the original RcV translation. I never really knew him other than his name on that book and the praise I had heard Witness Lee give him in trainings. (He had a delightful sing-song way of saying "JohnIngalls" as he ran the two names together!) But I've played with Greek language tools and considered the problems of translation and as a consequence I really appreciate the effort those brothers made to produce something so faithful to the Greek text. By comparison, the text of the revised RcV appears to be the product of a committee that lacked very much spiritual insight. Furthermore, the revisions to the footnotes are very rarely an improvement over the original that came from Witness Lee's own pen and actually tend to make things less clear than Lee's sometimes non-standard English expression.

In other words, if I were John Ingalls, Bill Duane or Bill Mallon, I'd prefer that they left my name out of it if they weren't going to use what I actually did. In fact, I believe most would recognize that the primary reason for the radical revision of the text was so that LSM could do just that.

Think about what I've just said: they actually rewrote the Bible to be able to exclude those brothers. How much clearer can you get that they went off the tracks?

Grace to you today, Terry!