The Empire Strikes Back, Minoru Chen battles Nigel Tomes.

The Empire Strikes Back, Minoru Chen battles Nigel Tomes (hope you dont mind my star wars humor).

2007April15-AnswersTo7Accusations (Part 1 of 3)- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-lIbTiqWHY&t=299s

2007April15-AnswersTo7Accusations (Part 2 of 3)- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k9dnAAT-Zbg&t=357s

2007April15-AnswersTo7Accusations (Part 3 of 3)-
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=46V5Ky__DmQ&t=509s

Here are some interesting video clips on the how the coworkers attempted to address the papers Nigel Tomes posted. I found it kind of funny, there was YouTube comments addressing something along the lines of “you can have all the amens you want it doesn’t take away the truth” (paraphrase). It really made me think on all the men of God that have exited this group cause of authoritative submission to Lee ministry. The funny thing is that in one way, the leader of the LR desires a bunch of absolute Leeites in their group. On the other hand, I frequently from time to time always hear the coworkers complain of certain leaving their group that decided not to be a full on Leeite.

One example I can give is when a coworker basically gave some sort of downcast mood on a person he describes as “making his own speedboat and not following Noah ark”. To keep the story short, with the details he gave about this man, he was clearly talking about Bill Freeman. The gifted man who got ambitious and “made his own group”. Just went on and on about how he was prideful and rebellious and supposedly “wasted his talents”. Im like seriously, you still complaining about a man who left nearly half a century ago?

The reason I bring up the Bill Freeman example is because I want to address the irony of the lords recovery. They want everyone to be a Leeite and just fully submit to Lee in “absoluteness”. You see what that looks like in action, in the videos, you see these people being robotic and mindless in their “absolute loyalty” to LSM. The recovery for the most part a majority of this kind of Leeite mentality. That there is hardly any fruits of the holy spirit flowing through them, they don’t have the joy of life genuinely empowering them. They have fear based and culture embedded “Amens” and “absoluteness” but the LR realizes something is missing. They want it both ways, they want some weird hybrid of a person that is one way like Bill Freeman, Bill Mallon, Nigel Tomes, or John Ingalls (Towards God) but mixed in with in with someone like Benson Philipps, Minoru Chen, or Ray Graver (Towards Lee).

You want a man of God to be mixed in with a man of Lee and it just does not work like that. You can complain and go on tirades of all the “storms” and all the “speed boats” but just realize it was being absolute to Lee instead of God that caused all those issues you have. Its literally impossible for a genuine man of God to just be a blind Lee loyalist. Its like mixing Oil and Water, literally incompatible and they don’t mix. They keep wondering where all the men of God go, and why they don’t have them in the lords recovery. They wonder we don’t have those fiery and “life giving” talents, well its because your Lee culture eliminates them one way or another. They either leave or hide in the background in fear, anxiety, and dissension. You have a lot of talented and smart people (potentially), you just ruin them with the Lee absolute nonsense.

I will end it with this, to the LR lurkers, is this really what you want. Is being blind and absolute with all the vain Amens really something you want? Is being absolute for Lee an environment that you want to spend your life in? Are you telling me there isn’t something so much better to experience? If a bunch of Leebots is all you want, then stop complaining about people who left nearly half a century ago. But deep down inside you know darn well, it is a miserable cycle of just emptiness and death in the Lords Recovery. People of all ages are leaving and see the truth, God is leading them out. The campus workers are barely keeping you up afloat and you can scare people all you want with the “1000 years of darkness” to pressure your members to try do more for the LSM agenda, it isn’t going to solve your issues. Without Gods grace and favor, you will just continue falling further and further down this path of failure.

You cant mix oil and water
These are my thoughts and responses to this video. I think versatile discussion can be had with these videos. Thank you for your attention and I want to hear your thoughts on anything remotely related to this topic.
My Final Thoughts
- Can’t Mix Oil and Water (Man of Lee vs Man of God)
- Where did all the men of God go (people leaving the LR because of seeing the truth whether individually or during storms and turmoil’s)
- Once the “helper” comes you can’t go back (Conviction and Judgement of the holy spirit showing you the unbiblical and contradictory nature of Lee ministry and therefore making you unable to be absolute and blind for Lee whether you stay or leave the LR)
- The barricade of the river of life (The desolate environment of having an overwhelming majority of Lee absolutes reject and cast away the lead of the holy spirit)

[Nell]

These links aren’t working for me…sorry. Can you please check them out?

[Trapped]

Well there it is, Minoru Chen on recorded video, instructing people to "be Bereans" and "examine the Word".

Too bad he leaves out the inconvenient fact that they eviscerate people who do just that when those Word-examiners inevitably come to the conclusion that the ministry is wrong in many areas.

These videos can only be described as Minoru "working the crowd".

Nell if you copy and paste the links in google search it should lead you directly to the video on youtube. Or you can copy and paste the titles of the video on youtube and the videos posted by the channel "lastadam" should pop up.

Trapped, you are indeed correct, on the surface that is what these videos are about. Minoru Men just being an LSM puppet and working up the crowds. But there is something much deeper to be looked at (IMO). Nigel Tomes writings are just a very well written and effective method to communicative why people leave the recovery and why genuine men of God like Nigel Tomes just end up being able not to stay. The conviction of the holy spirit brought him out, just it did everyone else whether an ordinary member or a leadership position. I think the overall theme of this video can breach many different subtopics of conversation.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Vagabond

Nell if you copy and paste the links in google search it should lead you directly to the video on youtube. Or you can copy and paste the titles of the video on youtube and the videos posted by the channel "lastadam" should pop up.

Thanks. I actually tried that. I’m on my iPad which is sometimes wonky. I’ll try my Windows box later.

Nell

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Vagabond

My Final Thoughts
- Can’t Mix Oil and Water (Man of Lee vs Man of God)
- Where did all the men of God go (people leaving the LR because of seeing the truth whether individually or during storms and turmoil’s)
- Once the “helper” comes you can’t go back (Conviction and Judgement of the holy spirit showing you the unbiblical and contradictory nature of Lee ministry and therefore making you unable to be absolute and blind for Lee whether you stay or leave the LR)
- The barricade of the river of life (The desolate environment of having an overwhelming majority of Lee absolutes reject and cast away the lead of the holy spirit)

Point number 1. Can't Mix Oil and Water- this to me is in line with Matthew 6:24
“No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money.
The co-workers, elders, and responsible ones want the saints to be submissive to their authority as deputies authorities of God. You cannot fear God and man at the same time. You cannot serve to masters. Who is the head? Is it God or is it "oneness with the brothers". This leads into the next point.
Point number 2. Where did all the men of God go? It goes back to Matthew 6:24. Realizing they cannot serve two masters. Those that fear God and hold God as the head, know they cannot stay. To stay in the Lord's Recovery movement would require them to ignore their conscience and live a conflicted life. I truly believe this is why many brothers and sisters in the Local Churches have had nervous breakdowns among other mental health illnesses. I wonder, how many dear saints kept their thoughts and feelings suppressed only to be manifested in bipolar disorder?
If one fears God, they will not make that choice. Unfortunately many of us have feared man for too long before waking up.
Point number 3. "Once the helper comes". I am not sure what exactly is meant, but for me when one spends more time reading the Bible and less time reading the ministry, you begin to see more clearly how practices and teachings in The Lord's Recovery movement does not match scripture.
Point number 4. "The barricade of the river of life" The notion one must have oneness with the brothers (aka feeling of the Body) quenches lead of the Holy Spirit. Yes, there were times I thought while in the Local Churches, we should spend less time reading the ministry publications and more time praying for one another. This unyielding devotion to a man's ministry is not an excercise of liberty, but a yoke of slavery.
Galations 5:1
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

[Robert]

It is so hard to me reject impression that Pinoccio nose is longer and longer with each next sentenceof Minoru denying that Toronto and any other church is not LSM's church.
I think he should hit table with feast aslo. Would be more convincing...
Part 1/3 min 5:30 plus...

[Robert]

P.S. I wrote this like joke. But deep in my heart is big sorrow and pain.
First of all there is no need to defend any church and lay head for them. We do not know many saints and their motivations.
How in the World he dare to claim it in the name of others? Is it not simply cult speech having as goal to keep members close to ministry?
If this is not indoctrination then I do not know real definition of this word...

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Vagabond

The Empire Strikes Back, Minoru Chen battles Nigel Tomes (hope you dont mind my star wars humor).

2007April15-AnswersTo7Accusations (Part 1 of 3)- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-lIbTiqWHY&t=299s

If the churches are autonomous and not "LSM churches" then why does the money flow to LSM? Why are the tithes sent to LSM? Why are LSM publications only exclusively being sold at local meeting halls? And why if a locality that is supposedly "autonomous" doesn't fall in line with the big brothers at LSM are they designated a "rebel church?" Their words and their actions don't line up

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Jay

If the churches are autonomous and not "LSM churches" then why does the money flow to LSM? Why are the tithes sent to LSM? Why are LSM publications only exclusively being sold at local meeting halls? And why if a locality that is supposedly "autonomous" doesn't fall in line with the big brothers at LSM are they designated a "rebel church?" Their words and their actions don't line up

Autonomous only in the sense of setting meeting times. In every other sense, they're ministry churches.
In my time the only local church close to being autonomous was Spokane. I'm sure much changed since they're lead elder passed. Since then I'm sure the Puget Sound localities were able to get Spokane to line up.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by TLFisher

Autonomous only in the sense of setting meeting times. In every other sense, they're ministry churches.
In my time the only local church close to being autonomous was Spokane. I'm sure much changed since they're lead elder passed. Since then I'm sure the Puget Sound localities were able to get Spokane to line up.

I distinctly remember WL saying that the LC elders had the authority to decide when the prayer meeting starts. I about fell off my chair …

[Jay]

Originally Posted by TLFisher

Autonomous only in the sense of setting meeting times. In every other sense, they're ministry churches.
In my time the only local church close to being autonomous was Spokane. I'm sure much changed since they're lead elder passed. Since then I'm sure the Puget Sound localities were able to get Spokane to line up.

Very interesting you said this, because I remember when I moved away from Spokane in 2006 to Bellevue. I was in a Bellevue home meeting and for whatever reason (probably a conference in the area) the leading Spokane brother (not the old guy) was at that home meeting. And it was at a Bellevue elder's home and two of the three leading elders from Bellevue were there. Well they kind of broke away to another table with only the two elders from Bellevue and that leading brother from Spokane and had a weird little talk. That always stood out to me. For some reason the Lord occasionally shows me little blips of scenes that I ponder at and later on figure out why. This could be one of those scenes. Anyway I haven't been back to Spokane since 2006 so I have no way to verify. That was so long ago now. The church in Spokane could be completely different than it was when I was there. I wonder now how it has changed. I love the city of Spokane as well. It used to be such a gem of a city. I'm so glad I grew up there. Beautiful city and wonderful people, as opposed to dreary Seattle with the gloomy insulated passive aggressive people here. But Spokane had a lot of drug and homelessness problems since I moved away. Even one or two young brothers from the church there got caught up in it. One of my dreams is to move back there some day