Local Church Discussions  

Go Back   Local Church Discussions > Introductions and Testimonies

Introductions and Testimonies Please tell everybody something about yourself. Tell us a little. Tell us a lot. Its up to you!

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-21-2018, 08:21 PM   #1
acolyte4236
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Exclamation Hanegraaff and the LC-A Plea for Help

I am hoping some former LC persons can help me. I am a former employee of CRI. I was never a member of the LC though I am generally familiar with them. I also happen to be Eastern Orthodox.

I've been writing about Hanegraaff's conversion, his past financial scandals and theological foul ups at energeticprocession.wordpress.com.

Hanegraaff's right hand man Paul Young has been a member of the LC at least since 2008 and claims influence from Lee going back even further. Now evidence seems to have surfaced that Hanegraaff was going to join the LC sometime in 2014/15 but that he apparently changed his mind and started going to an EO parish.

Can anyone help me? You can contact me privately at acolyte4236@sbcglobal.net if it is easier.
  Reply With Quote
Old 02-22-2018, 05:50 PM   #2
Koinonia
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 535
Default Re: Hanegraaff and the LC-A Plea for Help

acolyte4236, Hanegraaff was indeed the darling of the LC for a number of years, and there was much discussion about the possibility of his joining the group. He attended many LSM conferences and trainings, visited the FTTA, numerous LC congregations around the world, and was very close to a few of the senior leadership.

You might start by reading this thread on this message board:

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...ad.php?p=63519
Koinonia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-24-2018, 02:31 PM   #3
Terry
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 3,197
Default Re: Hanegraaff and the LC-A Plea for Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
acolyte4236, Hanegraaff was indeed the darling of the LC for a number of years, and there was much discussion about the possibility of his joining the group. He attended many LSM conferences and trainings, visited the FTTA, numerous LC congregations around the world, and was very close to a few of the senior leadership.
That's fairly accurate. When I was meeting with local LC (2009/2010) that's what the local lead elder confirmed during a home meeting. Basically alluding to Hank as an honorary blended brother.
As to Hank's involvement with CRI, it created controversy whether he should be the one to lead CRI after Walter Martin's passing.
__________________
"Even a neutral has a right to take account of facts, even a neutral cannot be asked to close his mind or close his conscience."- Franklin D. Roosevelt
Terry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2018, 08:44 PM   #4
Acolyte4236
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 9
Default Re: Hanegraaff and the LC-A Plea for Help

Thanks all for the reply.

Since I lived through a portion of the debacle at CRI and I know the majority of players, I am well aware of Hanegraaff’s unethical behavior. For what it may be worth, in terms of bona fides, I also personally knew Bob and Gretchen Passantino along with many others.

Here is what I can help with. I have written up a number of posts detailing some of the past and some of the current situation. You can find them here www.energeticprocession.wordpress.com

Some of you may not know that Paul Young, the chief executive officer for CRI has been a member of the LC since at least 2008/2009. Young details the influence of Lee going back decades. Young and HH are very close with Young making about 140k a year by sitting on the CRI board. HH is also a co-owner of Young’s 4800 sq ft million dollar home in NC. HH’s mansion is far larger at 9200 sq ft. which he bought for 3.1 million.

You may also not be familiar with some of the of the following links.

http://articles.latimes.com/2003/aug.../me-watchdog17
http://articles.latimes.com/2000/apr/30/local/me-25109

What I am looking for is something very specific. The following book by HH was set to come out in 2014. The book has all the markings of a coming out of the LC closet announcement. But the book was yanked prior to going to market. It was set to release in China and the US simultaneously. The book is currently being reworked by HH as a book covering his conversion to Orthodoxy.

I can’t find a copy of the book in English, but it is possible it was released or some copies were in China. I want to know if anyone here has contacts there and would know if copies are to be had, even if they are in Chinese.
http://www.capitolchristianmusicgrou...px?iid=2012552

As to HH sitting in many LSM trainings and such, can anyone here provide documentation?
Acolyte4236 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2018, 10:58 AM   #5
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 10,095
Default Re: Hanegraaff and the LC-A Plea for Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acolyte4236 View Post
Thanks all for the reply.

Since I lived through a portion of the debacle at CRI and I know the majority of players, I am well aware of Hanegraaff’s unethical behavior. For what it may be worth, in terms of bona fides, I also personally knew Bob and Gretchen Passantino along with many others.
Acolyte, it has long been suspected by former members of the LC's that CRI's "We Were Wrong" was bought and paid for by LSM. Hank needed money and LSM needed credibility.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

.
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2018, 11:13 AM   #6
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 10,095
Default Re: Hanegraaff and the LC-A Plea for Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acolyte4236 View Post
What I am looking for is something very specific. The following book by HH was set to come out in 2014. The book has all the markings of a coming out of the LC closet announcement. But the book was yanked prior to going to market. It was set to release in China and the US simultaneously. The book is currently being reworked by HH as a book covering his conversion to Orthodoxy.

I can’t find a copy of the book in English, but it is possible it was released or some copies were in China. I want to know if anyone here has contacts there and would know if copies are to be had, even if they are in Chinese.
Is this the book you are referring to:

The Authentic Christian Life
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

.
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2018, 11:50 AM   #7
Terry
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 3,197
Default Re: Hanegraaff and the LC-A Plea for Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acolyte4236 View Post
As to HH sitting in many LSM trainings and such, can anyone here provide documentation?
No documentation I've ever seen. I've only been exposed to verbal expression regarding Hank's visit's to Asia accompanying blended co-workers.
__________________
"Even a neutral has a right to take account of facts, even a neutral cannot be asked to close his mind or close his conscience."- Franklin D. Roosevelt
Terry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2018, 01:24 PM   #8
Nell
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 826
Default Re: Hanegraaff and the LC-A Plea for Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Is this the book you are referring to:

The Authentic Christian Life
It’s “out of print”, limited availability. I can’t find a way to purchase.
Nell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2018, 01:32 PM   #9
Acolyte4236
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 9
Default Re: Hanegraaff and the LC-A Plea for Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Is this the book you are referring to:

The Authentic Christian Life
Yes that is the book
Acolyte4236 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2018, 01:34 PM   #10
Acolyte4236
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 9
Default Re: Hanegraaff and the LC-A Plea for Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Acolyte, it has long been suspected by former members of the LC's that CRI's "We Were Wrong" was bought and paid for by LSM. Hank needed money and LSM needed credibility.
Yes, I suspect the same. This is because HH has a history of making backroom deals. If you listen to the interview I did a while back, I discuss it. Other former employees thought or recall that problem.

https://energeticprocession.wordpres...utionary-show/
Acolyte4236 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2018, 01:39 PM   #11
Acolyte4236
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 9
Default Re: Hanegraaff and the LC-A Plea for Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nell View Post
It’s “out of print”, limited availability. I can’t find a way to purchase.
The book never went to print. It was yanked by HH for some reason prior to publication in the US. He is reworking it now for sale as his conversion to Orthodoxy/memoir book.
Acolyte4236 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2018, 04:27 PM   #12
Koinonia
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 535
Default Re: Hanegraaff and the LC-A Plea for Help

According to what I have heard, this book was never published (in English or Chinese), and was likely never written (or finished).

LC leaders had introduced HH to the concept of "deification" (theosis) through the teachings of Witness Lee. Over time, HH became more and more enthralled with this teaching. Wanting to learn more, a few years ago, he sought out a meeting with Eastern Orthodox leaders in NYC (HH has spoken about this publicly, on one of his radio shows). These encounters eventually led to his aligning himself with Eastern Orthodoxy (instead of the LC). Ironically, LC leaders pointed HH to Eastern Orthodoxy, and then HH rejected the LC in favor of it.

This the way I understand it.
Koinonia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2018, 05:54 PM   #13
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 10,095
Default Re: Hanegraaff and the LC-A Plea for Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
According to what I have heard, this book was never published (in English or Chinese), and was likely never written (or finished).

LC leaders had introduced HH to the concept of "deification" (theosis) through the teachings of Witness Lee. Over time, HH became more and more enthralled with this teaching. Wanting to learn more, a few years ago, he sought out a meeting with Eastern Orthodox leaders in NYC (HH has spoken about this publicly, on one of his radio shows). These encounters eventually led to his aligning himself with Eastern Orthodoxy (instead of the LC). Ironically, LC leaders pointed HH to Eastern Orthodoxy, and then HH rejected the LC in favor of it.

This the way I understand it.
Why is it that those who feel they are above the law suddenly decide that "becoming god" is a great idea?

Acolyte, do you know that Witness Lee only introduced this teaching (his so-called "high peak" teaching) about man becoming god after excommunicating and slandering numerous man of God in the LC's who spoke their consciences in response to excessive abuses and sexual immorality at Living Stream Ministry?
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!

.
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2018, 07:27 PM   #14
Acolyte4236
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 9
Default Re: Hanegraaff and the LC-A Plea for Help

Ohio,

When I was younger, I did a fair amount of work in counter cult apologetics. I did my undergraduate work at Cal State Fullerton. I also lived at Brookhurts & Ball, which at the time had the LSM across the street. I ran into LC folks semi-regularly. I was generally familiar with them.

I am not up on all the ins and outs of LC history. They are a minor sect and I don’t run into them very often. I prefer to spend time learning about what I believe or ought to, rather than focusing on what everyone else believes.
That said, I would not be surprised if what you say is the truth given how sects that form around a single individual tend to be accompanied by sexual immorality and graft though.
Acolyte4236 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2018, 07:42 PM   #15
Terry
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 3,197
Default Re: Hanegraaff and the LC-A Plea for Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acolyte4236 View Post
I also lived at Brookhurts & Ball, which at the time had the LSM across the street. I ran into LC folks semi-regularly. I was generally familiar with them.
A coincidence. Same here. Lived on Cornwall Drive not far from Ball & Brookhurst instersection prior to moving to the mountains so many years ago.
__________________
"Even a neutral has a right to take account of facts, even a neutral cannot be asked to close his mind or close his conscience."- Franklin D. Roosevelt
Terry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2018, 07:44 PM   #16
Acolyte4236
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 9
Default Re: Hanegraaff and the LC-A Plea for Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
According to what I have heard, this book was never published (in English or Chinese), and was likely never written (or finished).

LC leaders had introduced HH to the concept of "deification" (theosis) through the teachings of Witness Lee. Over time, HH became more and more enthralled with this teaching. Wanting to learn more, a few years ago, he sought out a meeting with Eastern Orthodox leaders in NYC (HH has spoken about this publicly, on one of his radio shows). These encounters eventually led to his aligning himself with Eastern Orthodoxy (instead of the LC). Ironically, LC leaders pointed HH to Eastern Orthodoxy, and then HH rejected the LC in favor of it.

This the way I understand it.
Koinonia,

Yeah, that is the story HH sells but there are reasons for doubting its truth. Every Christian tradition has some doctrine of deification whether they are Lutheran, Reformed or whatever. That is because the biblical language is there and has to be made sense of somehow. That said, the Eastern Orthodox view is not the LC view. When the LC talk about partaking of the divine “essence”, ironically even in material quoted by Miller, uhm yeah, that’s not the Patristic view as held by the Orthodox.

Second, CRI had work done on deification in relation to other sects such as the LDS when HH came on board. There was a set of articles produced by Rob Bowman on it in the CRI Journal before Martin died. (I believe it was “Ye are gods?” in 1987.) I know those articles were mentioned on the show when HH was starting to sit in, so he had to know about it.

Further the topic had to come up on the show and elsewhere more than once in over twenty years prior to any real wining and dining by the LC.
For these reasons I find it highly improbable that the LC introduced HH to the general concept of deification.

So what we have is a story that HH is selling. And I learned long ago not to believe any story that HH offers. Such narratives are how HH wants people to think about it, as if the change in views is part of some long period of academic study.

The fact is that a fair amount of HH’s books are most likely ghost written by staff or others. I know when I worked there he tried to get Michael Horton to ghost write for him. I also witnessed some of the ghost writing myself with HH signing off on CRI Perspectives I know he did not write.

Given that HH doesn’t even have a bachelors degree in any field and no competence in the biblical languages, logic or anything else, I find his claims that his views are the product of intense and prolonged study farcical.

It is possible that he cherry picked this doctrine. He tends to be idiosyncratic and not a systematic “thinker.” It is also possible that he got snookered by the LC as well and figured out at the last minute that the LC would liquidate his empire but the Orthodox wouldn’t. That too is possible. What is clear to me after nearly twenty years of being Orthodox, having a graduate level education in philosophy, which a strong background in historical and philosophical theology, HH has no idea what he is talking about when it comes to Orthodoxy, let alone much of anything else. This is why he cribs from the works of others to give the false impression that he is knowledgeable. The entire show is a facade IMHO. I know. I sat in the BAM studio for a year as part of my job. Plenty of other former employees will tell you the same.

That said, I think the LC influence is coming directly from Paul Young who is on the CRI board and an LC member. It seems clear to me, either Paul Young cares about selling lots of books or he has really drunk a lot of LC kool-aid.
Acolyte4236 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2018, 08:13 PM   #17
NewManLiving
Member
 
NewManLiving's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 135
Default Re: Hanegraaff and the LC-A Plea for Help

This link is very interesting. There is also a video at the bottom.

http://an-open-letter.org/en/paul-young/
NewManLiving is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2018, 08:14 PM   #18
Nell
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 826
Default Re: Hanegraaff and the LC-A Plea for Help

You might be interested in this rebuttal of the CRI “We Were Wrong” article, written by a former LC member.

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...23&postcount=1
Nell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2018, 08:21 PM   #19
Koinonia
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 535
Default Re: Hanegraaff and the LC-A Plea for Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acolyte4236 View Post
That said, I think the LC influence is coming directly from Paul Young who is on the CRI board and an LC member. It seems clear to me, either Paul Young cares about selling lots of books or he has really drunk a lot of LC kool-aid.
Acolyte4236, Paul Young did not get involved with the LC first; HH did--through CRI's "research project." They have both testified to the story in many LC venues. During the dialogue, HH befriended LC leaders and started getting further and further involved. Paul Young did become a member, but this was after the process had already started. Young's earlier encounters with Witness Lee/the LC are merely a footnote.
Koinonia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2018, 09:01 AM   #20
Acolyte4236
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 9
Default Re: Hanegraaff and the LC-A Plea for Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Koinonia View Post
Acolyte4236, Paul Young did not get involved with the LC first; HH did--through CRI's "research project." They have both testified to the story in many LC venues. During the dialogue, HH befriended LC leaders and started getting further and further involved. Paul Young did become a member, but this was after the process had already started. Young's earlier encounters with Witness Lee/the LC are merely a footnote.
Yeah, I am not sure that that is true. Hank doesn't extend relations to others in this way unless he thinks it is going to be profitable. I'd bet money that there were private discussions before any public meetings, which is Hank's typical MO. This is what he did with Set Free, which is how he got caught with Phil Aguilar recording the phone conversation and then using it to blackmail Hank.

I'd wager that the LC was influencing PY for some time and got him to move Hank in that direction. And I am sure Hank recognized the profitability of such a relationship as well.
Acolyte4236 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2018, 09:34 AM   #21
Acolyte4236
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 9
Default Re: Hanegraaff and the LC-A Plea for Help

For ex- LC members who may wish to read up more on The Hankadox mess, I’ve put the posts in order. There are various links with supporting information. Be aware that CRI changed their doctrinal statement in response to criticism in my posts so that the links to their doctrinal statement refer to the new on since they didn’t change the url. In a later post I link to the original from the waybackmachine.

Eventually, all of the files and documents pooled from many former employees will be put up on a separate stand alone site rather than my personal blog.
Should you have any questions or have information requests, please feel free to contact me.

https://energeticprocession.wordpres...el-answer-man/ The Babel Answer Man
https://energeticprocession.wordpres...ox-intermezzo/ A Hankadox Intermezzo
https://energeticprocession.wordpres...ith-frederica/ Footsies with Frederica
https://energeticprocession.wordpres...utionary-show/ The Orthodox Subversive on the Orthodox Revolutionary Show
https://energeticprocession.wordpres...martin-morgan/ A Response to Cindee Martin Morgan
https://energeticprocession.wordpres...nk-hanegraaff/ My Meeting with Hank Hanegraaff
https://energeticprocession.wordpres...his-para-rock/ Upon This Para-Rock
https://energeticprocession.wordpres...of-my-enemies/ A Table in the Presence of My Enemies
https://energeticprocession.wordpres...water-gave-me/ What the Water Gave Me
Acolyte4236 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2018, 03:40 PM   #22
Koinonia
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2016
Posts: 535
Default Re: Hanegraaff and the LC-A Plea for Help

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acolyte4236 View Post
Yeah, I am not sure that that is true. Hank doesn't extend relations to others in this way unless he thinks it is going to be profitable. I'd bet money that there were private discussions before any public meetings, which is Hank's typical MO. This is what he did with Set Free, which is how he got caught with Phil Aguilar recording the phone conversation and then using it to blackmail Hank.

I'd wager that the LC was influencing PY for some time and got him to move Hank in that direction. And I am sure Hank recognized the profitability of such a relationship as well.
I understand what you are saying, but I don't see is any reason to believe this is true. It does not match the published/spoken accounts of LC leaders, HH, or Paul Young. You should review those.
Koinonia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2018, 11:38 AM   #23
Terry
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 3,197
Default Impenitent

Quote:
Originally Posted by Acolyte4236 View Post
For ex- LC members who may wish to read up more on The Hankadox mess, I’ve put the posts in order. There are various links with supporting information. Be aware that CRI changed their doctrinal statement in response to criticism in my posts so that the links to their doctrinal statement refer to the new on since they didn’t change the url. In a later post I link to the original from the waybackmachine.

Eventually, all of the files and documents pooled from many former employees will be put up on a separate stand alone site rather than my personal blog.
Should you have any questions or have information requests, please feel free to contact me.

https://energeticprocession.wordpres...el-answer-man/ The Babel Answer Man
https://energeticprocession.wordpres...ox-intermezzo/ A Hankadox Intermezzo
https://energeticprocession.wordpres...ith-frederica/ Footsies with Frederica
https://energeticprocession.wordpres...utionary-show/ The Orthodox Subversive on the Orthodox Revolutionary Show
https://energeticprocession.wordpres...martin-morgan/ A Response to Cindee Martin Morgan
https://energeticprocession.wordpres...nk-hanegraaff/ My Meeting with Hank Hanegraaff
https://energeticprocession.wordpres...his-para-rock/ Upon This Para-Rock
https://energeticprocession.wordpres...of-my-enemies/ A Table in the Presence of My Enemies
https://energeticprocession.wordpres...water-gave-me/ What the Water Gave Me
Having read through a few of these links, what Acolyte4236 has to say regarding HH truly resonates as that behavior is likewise reflected by certain blended coworkers. They are simply impenitent. At least Hank made the effort to reach out to the author of the blogs.
__________________
"Even a neutral has a right to take account of facts, even a neutral cannot be asked to close his mind or close his conscience."- Franklin D. Roosevelt
Terry is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 08:16 AM.


3.8.9