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The Local Church in the 21st Century Observations and Discussions regarding the Local Church Movement in the Here and Now

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Old 08-15-2013, 02:44 PM   #1
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Default Current status of the Local Church?

I have relatives who accepted Christ as Savior in the mid 70's. Their lives and personalities started to change positively. They then became involved in the local church, which they are still involved in, and they became distant from the family, somewhat argumentative and critical. One of the members seemed to be coming out of lifelong depression after first becoming a Christian - appearing happy, until they started with the local church. Now, after almost 40 yrs in that cult, depression and withdrawal seems to characterize the personality.

I have frequently prayed for the cult's deliverance from deception. I'm wondering if anyone knows whether the local church is increasing or decreasing in numbers. Also, does anyone know if perhaps individual churches are seeing their doctrinal errors and turning away from them to true Biblical Christianity? Are there particular states or cities where people are coming out and/or changing their fellowship's beliefs?
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Old 08-18-2013, 08:18 PM   #2
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I have relatives who accepted Christ as Savior in the mid 70's. Their lives and personalities started to change positively. They then became involved in the local church, which they are still involved in, and they became distant from the family, somewhat argumentative and critical. One of the members seemed to be coming out of lifelong depression after first becoming a Christian - appearing happy, until they started with the local church. Now, after almost 40 yrs in that cult, depression and withdrawal seems to characterize the personality.

I have frequently prayed for the cult's deliverance from deception. I'm wondering if anyone knows whether the local church is increasing or decreasing in numbers. Also, does anyone know if perhaps individual churches are seeing their doctrinal errors and turning away from them to true Biblical Christianity? Are there particular states or cities where people are coming out and/or changing their fellowship's beliefs?
I first contacted brothers in the Local Church over 40 years ago while working at an optical factory in downtown Cleveland on Prospect Avenue. I saw their love and joy in the Lord Jesus. Their testimony of salvation shook up that little eyeglass factory for God. I would have to testify that their love for Jesus Christ was no different than that of the first century believers. They placed Christ as first in their hearts. It was clearly evident for all to see.

Slowly, almost imperceptibly, Local Church leaders changed that environment. As the Apostle Paul so clearly warned us with tears in Acts 20.30, "and from among you yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverted things, to draw away the disciples after themselves."

Things have changed since those early days. What the Apostle Paul warned us about has happened again. Happened in the Local Churches in the 20th century. Leaders in the Local Churches rose up and drew our love and attention away from the Lord Jesus to themselves, speaking perverted things, and, in a nutshell, that was the history of Witness Lee in the Local Churches.
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Old 08-19-2013, 04:14 AM   #3
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Default Re: Current status of the Local Church?

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I'm wondering if anyone knows whether the local church is increasing or decreasing in numbers.
This might not be the place to get an answer. Most of the posters here have not been meeting with the local church for a while.

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Also, does anyone know if perhaps individual churches are seeing their doctrinal errors and turning away from them to true Biblical Christianity?
Doubtful. The whole system is built on a perfect ideal, so how can they change?

Let me give you a case study. A disabled brother on pension moved about 40 miles outside the city where housing is cheap. I periodically call him. He bemoans the fact that "the saints" have abandoned him, don't visit him, etc. I ask why not visit with some of the Christians near him? No, he replies; "I am absolute". This man won't have anything to do with "Christianity" because he is completely sold out for the local church, and the local church won't have anything to do with him because they don't consider him "good building material".

So in spite of the fact that the only evident fruit of Lee's ministry is to cut people apart, they won't change, because "they are absolute".

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Are there particular states or cities where people are coming out and/or changing their fellowship's beliefs?
Two areas where people have "come out" somewhat are the Midwest (Ohio, Pennsylvania, Indiana, Ontario etc), and Brazil. But most of them have not changed their beliefs and practices very much. They are just practicing local church beliefs and customs apart from their original source, Witness Lee's Living Stream Ministry.
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Old 08-19-2013, 12:42 PM   #4
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Default Re: Current status of the Local Church?

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I have relatives who accepted Christ as Savior in the mid 70's. Their lives and personalities started to change positively. They then became involved in the local church, which they are still involved in, and they became distant from the family, somewhat argumentative and critical.
The attitude they adopted after joining the LC system in the 1970s is a result of Witness Lee's attitude, teachings and practices namely:

1. Be "sold out" and "absolute" for the/his church to the detriment and damage of family relationships.

2. We are God's best - the only true legitimate church and all other Christians are spiritually bankrupt and blind. We have all the riches and light and they have nothing.

Sadly like so many your relatives drank the kool-aid and in the late 1980s what existed all along became more boldly manifest i.e. Witness Lee is God's one divine oracle on the earth, the Minister of the Age, etc.

After he died he left behind coworkers who could by rote repeat his messages. His writings became an authoritative text for those in the LC system with a status at or above the Bible itself.

In 2006 a big division occurred between Titus Chu and his coworkers and the coworkers in HQed in Anaheim. What was the division about? Witness Lee of of course - who BTW had already been dead for 9+ years! Those based in Anaheim excommunicated Titus because they disagreed with his interpretation and representation not of the Bible but of Witness Lee. Later a similar division took place in Brazil. For the most part they are all still basically the same.

Truth be told they threw away the "Local Church" idea a long time ago. For all intent and purposes they are the Witness Lee Church and will continue to be so for the forseeable future. Too bad they didn't call it that back in the 1970s. If they did I'm sure your relatives would have at least had second thoughts about joining or more likely have run in the opposite direction!
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Old 08-21-2013, 09:06 AM   #5
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Default Re: Current status of the Local Church?

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I have relatives who accepted Christ as Savior in the mid 70's. Their lives and personalities started to change positively. They then became involved in the local church, which they are still involved in, and they became distant from the family, somewhat argumentative and critical. One of the members seemed to be coming out of lifelong depression after first becoming a Christian - appearing happy, until they started with the local church. Now, after almost 40 yrs in that cult, depression and withdrawal seems to characterize the personality.
Do not despair. We are living in the last days and everyone's eyes will open to the Glory and Praise of our Savior sooner than later. It is the Holy Spirit Who drew us to the Lord Jesus, Who is constantly filling us with His Love, His Truth, His Life. No matter how loyal people are to Witness Lee, The Spirit of God will open their eyes and their hearts to repent and cry out to Jesus as Lord and Savior.

When people desperately want to be set free and healed, The Lord will answer and deliver them.

Quote:
I have frequently prayed for the cult's deliverance from deception.
Keep praying for the LORD to draw your family to Himself, to watch over them, to fill them with His Love, to cover them with His Precious Blood and to protect them from all weapons formed against them.

You will be rewarded for your prayers.


Quote:
I'm wondering if anyone knows whether the local church is increasing or decreasing in numbers. Also, does anyone know if perhaps individual churches are seeing their doctrinal errors and turning away from them to true Biblical Christianity? Are there particular states or cities where people are coming out and/or changing their fellowship's beliefs?
Of the people I have been in contact with who have been in the LC "forever", many of the children (who are adults now) no longer are in the LC. Some have civil relationships with their parents. Others have nothing do do with them and it goes both ways. Some LCrs practically have disowned their kids and some kids have practically disowned their parents.

I pray for the restoration and Bonding Love in families and friends.

Blessings,
Carol G
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Old 08-25-2013, 02:20 PM   #6
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The attitude they adopted after joining the LC system in the 1970s is a result of Witness Lee's attitude, teachings and practices namely:

1. Be "sold out" and "absolute" for the/his church to the detriment and damage of family relationships.

2. We are God's best - the only true legitimate church and all other Christians are spiritually bankrupt and blind. We have all the riches and light and they have nothing.

After he died he left behind coworkers who could by rote repeat his messages. His writings became an authoritative text for those in the LC system with a status at or above the Bible itself.

Truth be told they threw away the "Local Church" idea a long time ago. For all intent and purposes they are the Witness Lee Church and will continue to be so for the forseeable future.
Making some solid points alwayslearning. When a church is tailored towards a specific ministry, how can you call it anything but a ministry church? The mode of receiving becomes narrower than God's receiving, because the ministry is narrow.
Sure you can say the ministry is for the edification and for the building up. True, there is a building up. Yet, what is the composition of the building?

True, the ministry has helped and is helping many believers. Yet the ministry is not comprehensive as the Word of God is comprehensive. The ministry is according to what is profitable. If there's portions of the Word of God that is not profitable for the ministry, it is summarily passed over.

However if you want to exclude brothers and sisters because they raise points that are negative, just examine the Word of God. Specifically read the geneology of Jesus in Matthew 1. There alone are very negative situations.
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Old 08-31-2013, 10:17 AM   #7
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Thank you everyone for your replies, information and encouragement.
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Old 06-05-2015, 09:25 PM   #8
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I was in the LC from '70-'80. I now live on the other coast from where I attended. I have kept up on issues, and have just wondered, what is the church like now? About ten years ago I went to my local LC. I walked in to the meeting hall, built for hundreds like Anaheim, but only about 50 sat in a circle. When I sat, two brothers, whom I later discovered were elders, sat next to me, one on each side. I felt like I was going into a besieged city, and the occupants were readying the boiling oil and raising the drawbridge. What a difference from the joy I remember towards the Lord, and the love feasts where we shared a meal and then rejoiced in the Lord. I felt like I was treated as an invader. However I think each LC unit has individual responses. I've gone back to where I was a member. Even though I told some of them I worshipped elsewhere, I was received warmly, and am still in contact. Others assumed I was still in the LC said to say hello to those in my city, and were surprised I am in 'Christianity". Pray for those in the LC. I remember many who had a heart for the Lord, but were led astray into only accepting the LC way as the only one.
In Christ, JK
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Old 06-06-2015, 12:03 PM   #9
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I was in the LC from '70-'80.
Me to Jk. Left while in the c. in Ft. Lauderdale, under -- and I mean under -- Mel Porter. A very far cry from Kangas in the c. in Detroit. And even a further cry from the c. in Santa Cruz (my fondest days in the LC).

From time to time, over the years, I have checked back with the local church. To see if they've changed. After discovering these local church forums, and hearing from so many other exLCers, stories that make your eyes bug out, I found that they got much worse after I left.

I guess I was holding them up and when I left they all fell down ... ha ha

Bro JK, you should consider joining the forum. We could use a fresh mind out here. And I love to hear more from you.
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Old 06-06-2015, 01:47 PM   #10
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About ten years ago I went to my local LC. I walked in to the meeting hall, built for hundreds like Anaheim, but only about 50 sat in a circle. When I sat, two brothers, whom I later discovered were elders, sat next to me, one on each side. I felt like I was going into a besieged city, and the occupants were readying the boiling oil and raising the drawbridge. What a difference from the joy I remember towards the Lord, and the love feasts where we shared a meal and then rejoiced in the Lord. I felt like I was treated as an invader.
I don't see anything positive and noteworthy happening in the LC these days. The early days were long before my time, but by every account, it sounds like new people were coming in all the time, people were happy and it was a completely different environment. I have noticed that they treat newcomers with a bit of suspicion. Those who ask to many questions or challenge teachings/practices are not worth spending any time on. So they want the "low information" types. Those who will swallow anything they're told.
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Old 06-06-2015, 06:28 PM   #11
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Others assumed I was still in the LC said to say hello to those in my city, and were surprised I am in 'Christianity".
This is common when you're in different cities. This was my experience also myself and others I knew from previous localities. It's not until the question comes is there the realization brother and sister so and so left many years ago, but they've never changed. Local church or no Local Church, they're still the same couple.
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Old 06-07-2015, 06:10 PM   #12
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Somewhere in heaven...

WL to Gabriel "What's the current status of the Local Church?"

Gabriel to WL "Situation normal sir!" (snafu)
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Old 06-13-2015, 06:38 PM   #13
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I want to say more in addition to my previous post. There is a difference between disagreeing and mocking arrogance. Past Christians have disagreed with their churches. The Pilgrims separated from the Church of England, to start a purer form in N. America. The Puritians decided to stay within the C of E., to reform it, (Purify, hence their name) until they were forced to leave by the leaders of the C of E. and come to N America. You can stay or leave if you disagree, but mocking arrogance of Christianity pushed the LC over the line for me. When I heard about ISIS martyring the Coptic (Egyptian) Christians recently, I decided to visit the Coptic (Egyptian Orthodox) Church near me and give them some brotherly solidarity. What was I told? They were comforted that those Coptic Christians would not deny Christ and were martyred instead....They loved not their lives unto death!!! And the LC says this is degraded Christianity? LCers get over yourselves. We are all equal in Christ. No one is better than the next. And there is plenty of room for different styles of worship or service. If Christians believe in the basics (Nicene creed), there is then liberty for how we approach God. I'm not going to put God in a box. ...and I dare anyone in the LC to go up to one of the Coptic Christians I have met and call them degraded Christianity! These are my brothers and sisters in Christ and I am humbled by them.
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Old 06-14-2015, 08:56 PM   #14
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I want to say more in addition to my previous post. There is a difference between disagreeing and mocking arrogance. Past Christians have disagreed with their churches. The Pilgrims separated from the Church of England, to start a purer form in N. America. The Puritians decided to stay within the C of E., to reform it, (Purify, hence their name) until they were forced to leave by the leaders of the C of E. and come to N America. You can stay or leave if you disagree, but mocking arrogance of Christianity pushed the LC over the line for me. When I heard about ISIS martyring the Coptic (Egyptian) Christians recently, I decided to visit the Coptic (Egyptian Orthodox) Church near me and give them some brotherly solidarity. What was I told? They were comforted that those Coptic Christians would not deny Christ and were martyred instead....They loved not their lives unto death!!! And the LC says this is degraded Christianity? LCers get over yourselves. We are all equal in Christ. No one is better than the next. And there is plenty of room for different styles of worship or service. If Christians believe in the basics (Nicene creed), there is then liberty for how we approach God. I'm not going to put God in a box. ...and I dare anyone in the LC to go up to one of the Coptic Christians I have met and call them degraded Christianity! These are my brothers and sisters in Christ and I am humbled by them.
When I was active in the LC in the heyday of the movement I might have been willing to die for what I believed---the local ground---not sure ...didn't happen. The Nicene Creed is believed by the RCC, the Coptics etc and many others and it is admirable that they stood up for their faith to the point of death.

In light of this, aren't we being a little too hard on the LCer's? Wouldn't they die for what they believe today? Many have grown up in this faith of theirs. They would die for it and maybe more willingly then those of us who criticize them would die for what we believe. Aren't they true believers? I agree that they have drifted but they still are dedicated to what they believe even though we know that there are serious flaws in who and what they believe and what they are following. God have mercy on us all.
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Old 06-16-2015, 08:03 PM   #15
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In light of this, aren't we being a little too hard on the LCer's? Wouldn't they die for what they believe today? Many have grown up in this faith of theirs. They would die for it and maybe more willingly then those of us who criticize them would die for what we believe. Aren't they true believers? I agree that they have drifted but they still are dedicated to what they believe even though we know that there are serious flaws in who and what they believe and what they are following. God have mercy on us all.
Sorry, but enthusiasm does not justify what one is enthusiastic about.
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Old 06-17-2015, 12:07 PM   #16
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If the status is still the same since I last met with a locality (apart from visiting once a year), you can disregard much of apostle Paul's instruction from his epistles. Core biblical conduct most church leaders have in non-LC Christianity does not apply in the local churches. You need to apply Isaiah 5:20 in order to have a proper comprehension.
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Old 06-19-2015, 05:27 PM   #17
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They're wondering in the wilderness and only have twenty more years!
They should have turned right!
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Old 06-19-2015, 06:38 PM   #18
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They're wondering in the wilderness and only have twenty more years!
They should have turned right!

manna-man
great to see you again! Been a long time.
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Old 06-19-2015, 08:39 PM   #19
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Sorry, but enthusiasm does not justify what one is enthusiastic about.
Okay, Igzy, I can understand where you are coming from but a lot of this seems so fragmented without any direction. I think I understand the intent of the forum...open to those who have been or are in the LC as an opportunity to share experiences from the LC. However, the experiences are like a prism, fragmented because each of us are from different time periods, different frame of references regarding areas of the world, different levels of involvement, different perspectives and backgrounds when we joined....there are places where this fragmentation/prism joins and that is where we recognize the same experiences we had in the LC (eg. pray reading, calling on the Lord...) or the same leaders (e.g. Titus Chu), or the same locality. My question is --- is this a monolithic experience...? My own experience says no.

Like Christianity, it is fraught with fragmentation although there is an attempt at maintaining an epicenter. However, although we have had many different or similar experiences which is what we are sharing on this forum there is a realization that we need to let it go and allow the LC to do its thing. I don't see it as anything new or different from what Christianity has had to offer and I would hope that we could find the positives of what it offered in our lives and move on in our own development.
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Old 06-20-2015, 04:38 AM   #20
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Amen, Dave

As the grand Hosified says:

"You are where you are."

Seems a bit simplistic but nonetheless true. We were called out of where we were. They didn't heed the calling out of Mystery Babylon.

Hence they will stay in the Desert. We need to pray for those who are blinded and hope for their ears/eyes to be opened. We also need to learn to move on never forgetting the experience and appreciating the experience making us all the wiser while remaining tame as the Dove.

Peace to you brother Dave!
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Old 06-20-2015, 06:00 AM   #21
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Hi Ohio, glad to be back. :-)
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Old 06-20-2015, 07:25 AM   #22
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Greetings Awareness.

:-)
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Old 06-20-2015, 09:21 AM   #23
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We need to pray for those who are blinded and hope for their ears/eyes to be opened. We also need to learn to move on never forgetting the experience and appreciating the experience making us all the wiser while remaining tame as the Dove.
Amen! In a manner of speaking, the past has formed where we are presently. While we move on with new experiences.
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Old 06-20-2015, 09:31 AM   #24
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Hello brother Igzy! :-)
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Old 06-22-2015, 10:44 PM   #25
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Greetings Awareness.

:-)
I've been waiting to see you back again. And glad to see it. When you get your footing try your hand in Alternative views.
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Old 10-03-2015, 03:39 PM   #26
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I am the unregistered guest from 6-5-15. One thing that always bugged me was the justification I heard with my own ears, quoted many times in the local church , for suing other Christians. It was based on Acts 25:11 where Paul says "But if the charges brought against me by these Jews are not true, no one has the right to hand me over to them. I appeal to Caesar!”
Look at the full context starting with v7: "When Paul came in, the Jews who had come down from Jerusalem stood around him. They brought many serious charges against him, but they could not prove them." The Jews went to Caesar first and brought the issue to unbelievers! It was not how a God knowing people should treat other God knowing people,
i.e. going to the gentiles. To see how Christians should treat an internal disagreement, look at I Cor 6.

Lawsuits Among Believers

6 "If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people? 2 Or do you not know that the Lord’s people will judge the world? And if you are to judge the world, are you not competent to judge trivial cases? 3 Do you not know that we will judge angels? How much more the things of this life! 4 Therefore, if you have disputes about such matters, do you ask for a ruling from those whose way of life is scorned in the church? 5 I say this to shame you. Is it possible that there is nobody among you wise enough to judge a dispute between believers? 6 But instead, one brother takes another to court—and this in front of unbelievers!

7 The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? 8 Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers and sisters."

The minute the LC took doctrinal disputes to secular court, their biblical credibility with me went to zero. If they publicly repented of this, they might begin to be restored in my mind, but I don't think this will ever happen.
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Old 10-03-2015, 06:54 PM   #27
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Paul's appeal to Caesar was about his very life. It wasn't about financial gain or an attempt to silence one's voice.
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Old 10-05-2015, 04:31 PM   #28
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I've been waiting to see you back again. And glad to see it. When you get your footing try your hand in Alternative views.
In my 40 years in the LC I never heard a word about Paul's appeal to Caesar got him killed. No 25 million judgement for Paul. WL wasn't comparing apples to apples. I think the world calls this something like situation ethics, getting out of the Bible what you want, not what it says.
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Old 10-05-2015, 06:15 PM   #29
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In my 40 years in the LC I never heard a word about Paul's appeal to Caesar got him killed. No 25 million judgement for Paul. WL wasn't comparing apples to apples. I think the world calls this something like situation ethics, getting out of the Bible what you want, not what it says.
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It's also called base gain and filthy lucre, getting money out of the Bible cause that's what you want.
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Old 10-05-2015, 09:59 PM   #30
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It's also called base gain and filthy lucre, getting money out of the Bible cause that's what you want.
LC leaders aren't the only ones. Some of their newfound friends also have a history of such:

Quote:
1. Brad Sparks, formerly a top researcher on the staff of CRI (from 1992-1994) and assistant to Hanegraaff, stated in the suit that Hanegraaff and his wife, Kathy, had pocketed over $750,000 in bloated "salaries and benefits." This while CRI's rank and file employees "typically earn[ed] poverty-level income of approximately $13,000 per year!"

2. Sparks... noted that CRI enjoys non-profit organization status by the IRS, but had fraudulently used its tax exemption privileges to provide tax exempt "cover" for the Hanegraaffs' own personal, profit-making business, Memory Dynamics, Inc., a Georgia corporation, which was conducted out of the couple's home. Sparks' suit charged that the Hanegraaffs had repeatedly bled the ministry's bank accounts to feather their own nests. For example, "defendant Hanegraaffs have sought to conceal their total six figure income by the device of separating out major categories of personal expense such as the estimated $50,000 per year 'pastor's housing allowance.'" [Hanegraaff reportedly lived in a $730,000 house in an exclusive gated community in Orange County, California; CRI's board allegedly loaned Hanegraaff the $100,000 down payment.] The financial details provided by Sparks to support his lawsuit were convincingly documented. Some 14 pages of fine print were contained in the lawsuit.


http://www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/...gy/cri/law.htm
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Old 10-28-2015, 11:20 PM   #31
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...

...And I might add that this argument about "appealing to Ceasar" is spurious to say the least. Strictly speaking, the Jews, as those who had rejected the good news of the gospel, and who had even gone ahead to have Christ crucified, were NOT BELIEVERS. So Paul, in appealing to Ceasar against them, in a bid to save his life, did not contradict his very own injunction to the Corinthian BELIEVERS to not sue fellow believers.

Of course the LC System can argue that Christians are not true believers, and that thus they can be sued without qualm. Well, I wonder how that will go over before the Lord at His judgement seat.
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Old 10-29-2015, 09:26 PM   #32
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...

...And I might add that this argument about "appealing to Ceasar" is spurious to say the least. Strictly speaking, the Jews, as those who had rejected the good news of the gospel, and who had even gone ahead to have Christ crucified, were NOT BELIEVERS. So Paul, in appealing to Ceasar against them, in a bid to save his life, did not contradict his very own injunction to the Corinthian BELIEVERS to not sue fellow believers.

Of course the LC System can argue that Christians are not true believers, and that thus they can be sued without qualm. Well, I wonder how that will go over before the Lord at His judgement seat.
The many ways WL misused the bible makes me angry.
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Old 03-04-2016, 05:28 PM   #33
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An excerpt from Daily Words for the Christian Life best describes what Living Stream Ministry has become:

"We Christians often serve both in the spirit as well as in the flesh, using our own ways. This is the principle of mixture. We find it hard to walk solely by the spirit, so we mix the spirit with the flesh. This produces “mighty men of renown.” On the one hand we pray with our spirit, and on the other hand, we are full of plans and try our best to handle things according to the flesh. This is mixture. As a result, we build ourselves up, seeking to become mighty men."

I'll take it a step further to say at the Lord's name does get taken in vain. To suggest whatever the latest flow is, latest plans are, become qualified by saying this is where the Lord is moving.....As if to say whichever direction Living Stream choses to go in, that's the Lord moving. For years we've heard LSM is not an organization, but an organism. Really?
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Old 03-03-2018, 02:51 PM   #34
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I wrote the original post on this thread in 2015. I am especially interested in the state of the LC in the state of Washington. One major thing I've wondered about is if many of the LC people are not really converted because they have not learned about true repentence? From what I've heard, it seems that they see themselves as above other believers and almost 'part of God Himself'.

Have they really been taught to repent before God? And to believe that it is only Christ Who saves them, not the LC. Is it possibly just a religion to many or most of the LC'ers.
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Old 03-03-2018, 06:13 PM   #35
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I am especially interested in the state of the LC in the state of Washington.
As local churches have expanded in Washington state, I haven't seen growth. It's more a case of raising up a locality by taking members from another locality.
There was also reestablishing contact with those formerly meeting with the local churches as in the case of myself and my cousins. We received random phone calls being invited to meet on LDM. Myself in Renton and my cousins in Vancouver as in these two cities the ground was being taken.
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Old 03-03-2018, 11:12 PM   #36
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I wrote the original post on this thread in 2015. I am especially interested in the state of the LC in the state of Washington. One major thing I've wondered about is if many of the LC people are not really converted because they have not learned about true repentence?
Anyone who can say Jesus is Lord and believe it is truly converted.

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From what I've heard, it seems that they see themselves as above other believers and almost 'part of God Himself'.
As the term "we are the body of Christ, who is God" would suggest, we are part of God in this sense.


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Have they really been taught to repent before God? And to believe that it is only Christ Who saves them, not the LC. Is it possibly just a religion to many or most of the LC'ers.
Moment by moment repentance is a key teaching as is salvation by Christ alone. That is indisputable. Also if a person truly belongs to Christ then repentance is automatic - turning to Christ IS repentance.
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Old 03-04-2018, 05:20 AM   #37
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Coreopsis,

You may be curious, as I am, about references for these "sayings", "terms" and "key teachings". Of course, the poster never said these were in the Bible. Perhaps they were just his personal non-scriptural beliefs. Christians, and people in general, often "quote the Bible" with phrases which are actually not in the Bible. Words have meanings, and should be chosen carefully, especially when using the Bible as an implied source. In which case, without Biblical references, we must always challenge the authenticity of words and phrases as to the origin, that is, whether these are actually in the Bible. In fact, I don't recall the quotes below as being taught even by Witness Lee, so I would also need references if that is the case. I also find it helpful to insist on direct quotes, word by word, which is, in fact, the definition of a "quote". Otherwise, we might find ourselves dealing with "Christian beliefs that are not in the Bible."

If you Google "Christian beliefs that are not in the Bible" you may find the results a bit entertaining. Mike Ditka believes that "this too shall pass" is in the Bible, but provides no reference. "Cleanliness is next to Godliness" is another example.

Quote:
(1) Anyone who can say Jesus is Lord and believe it is truly converted.

(2) As the term "we are the body of Christ, who is God" would suggest, we are part of God in this sense.

(3) Moment by moment repentance is a key teaching as is salvation by Christ alone. That is indisputable. Also if a person truly belongs to Christ then repentance is automatic - turning to Christ IS repentance.
The closest I can come to (1) the above "saying" is this:
1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit (Ghost). (KJV) At that, it's not very "close" at all...nothing about "conversion."

(2) "We are the body of Christ, who is God". It's true that Jesus is God, but this "term" implies that body of Christ is God...hummm. We really need a scripture reference for this "term"!

(3) "Moment by moment repentance" I could find neither with Google, nor in the Bible, but I did find an article in the Christian Science Monitor which references the teachings of Mary Baker Eddy. https://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1012/p18s01-hfcs.html

“Automatic repentance” is also a curiosity.

Nell

Last edited by Nell; 03-04-2018 at 06:07 AM.
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Old 03-04-2018, 01:17 PM   #38
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"Christians, and people in general, often "quote the Bible" with phrases which are actually not in the Bible. " ~ Nell.

Note that the terms "true and false" repentance are not in the bible either, to my knowledge. Strictly speaking, there is only two possibilities - repentance, and no repentance.


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The closest I can come to (1) the above "saying" is this:
1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit (Ghost). (KJV) At that, it's not very "close" at all...nothing about "conversion."

It helps to know the context of this verse, which shows that it can be used to determine whether one is a genuine convert or not.

The Corinthian church was affected by the Corinthian's pagan and cultural influences. On any given Sunday "church meeting", it is probable that not everyone who spoke messages were genuine Christians. Some people may have been like today's new agers or Hindus who believe in many gods and one of them is Jesus. However, they cannot say Jesus is Lord above all their other many gods.

This verse is the test which Paul gave the Corinthians so they could know who speaks by the Spirit and who does not. Obviously a person who says Jesus is Lord by the Spirit is a converted person as indicated by "no man can say".


Quote:
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(2) "We are the body of Christ, who is God". It's true that Jesus is God, but this "term" implies that body of Christ is God...hummm. We really need a scripture reference for this "term"!
The body must be the same as the head or it will be a monster. It would be like an animal with a horses head and a lions body. We don't need a scripture verse to state the obvious. There's only three possibilities of what the body of Christ could be - God, man, or Satan. Definitely not Satan. Is it man? The body of Christ is man? It doesn't sound right. So I think the body of Christ is God.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Nell View Post
(3) "Moment by moment repentance" I could find neither with Google, nor in the Bible, but I did find an article in the Christian Science Monitor which references the teachings of Mary Baker Eddy. https://www.csmonitor.com/2005/1012/p18s01-hfcs.html

“Automatic repentance” is also a curiosity.
Nell
If we turn to the Lord continually through prayer, praise or thanksgiving, we are actually repenting continually. Repentance means to change ones mind or change our direction, and as we turn from our self to the Lord we are doing this. Many Christians confuse repentance with confession. Confession is where we admit our mistakes and sins to the Lord. It is possible to admit sins and mistakes but never actually turn to the Lord. This act of "repentance" can alleviate the person's conscience but there has been no genuine change because they have not touched the Lord's life.

There is a term in Christianity called "spiritual breathing" and moment by moment repentance is related to that. The concept is not foreign in Christianity.

For me it returned 135 hits on Google

Here is a few that are not CS related to my knowledge.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/...e_Spirituality

https://godfactor.com/do-this-and-you-will-be-free/

https://banneroftruth.org/us/resourc...of-repentance/
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Old 03-04-2018, 07:34 PM   #39
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"Christians, and people in general, often "quote the Bible" with phrases which are actually not in the Bible. " ~ Nell.

Note that the terms "true and false" repentance are not in the bible either, to my knowledge. Strictly speaking, there is only two possibilities - repentance, and no repentance.

It helps to know the context of this verse, which shows that it can be used to determine whether one is a genuine convert or not.

The Corinthian church was affected by the Corinthian's pagan and cultural influences. On any given Sunday "church meeting", it is probable that not everyone who spoke messages were genuine Christians. Some people may have been like today's new agers or Hindus who believe in many gods and one of them is Jesus. However, they cannot say Jesus is Lord above all their other many gods.

This verse is the test which Paul gave the Corinthians so they could know who speaks by the Spirit and who does not. Obviously a person who says Jesus is Lord by the Spirit is a converted person as indicated by "no man can say".

The body must be the same as the head or it will be a monster. It would be like an animal with a horses head and a lions body. We don't need a scripture verse to state the obvious. There's only three possibilities of what the body of Christ could be - God, man, or Satan. Definitely not Satan. Is it man? The body of Christ is man? It doesn't sound right. So I think the body of Christ is God.

If we turn to the Lord continually through prayer, praise or thanksgiving, we are actually repenting continually. Repentance means to change ones mind or change our direction, and as we turn from our self to the Lord we are doing this. Many Christians confuse repentance with confession. Confession is where we admit our mistakes and sins to the Lord. It is possible to admit sins and mistakes but never actually turn to the Lord. This act of "repentance" can alleviate the person's conscience but there has been no genuine change because they have not touched the Lord's life.

There is a term in Christianity called "spiritual breathing" and moment by moment repentance is related to that. The concept is not foreign in Christianity. ...
Please provide verses. From the Bible. No "terms". No "sayings". No "teachings." No "concepts." No spin. Verses...from the Bible.

.
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Old 03-04-2018, 11:40 PM   #40
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Please provide verses. From the Bible. No "terms". No "sayings". No "teachings." No "concepts." No spin. Verses...from the Bible.

.
Maybe if Coreopsis or yourself also provides verses for these concepts:

"people are not really converted because they have not learned about true repentence" ~does the bible really say people are not really converted because they haven't learnt this concept called "true repentance"? Firstly, does the bible teach "true" repentance or does it just teach repentance? Secondly, is it something to be learnt, must we learn how to repent before we can truly be saved?

"taught to repent before God" ~ - this also carries the theme of being "taught to repent". Also the notion of "repenting before God" is a concept. Catholics may repent before a priest, or statue of Mary.

" believe that it is only Christ Who saves them" ~ again, this must be clarified as it is a modern evangelical Christian concept and needs biblical support. There are others involved in salvation as well. Possibly the Catholic/Orthodox might disagree that "only Christ" saves - "there is no salvation outside of the Church". Also, Acts 2:40 suggests that we can save ourselves - "Save yourselves from this untoward generation".

Coreopsis's post is full of concepts.
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Old 03-05-2018, 05:03 AM   #41
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Maybe if Coreopsis or yourself also provides verses for these concepts:
...
Coreopsis's post is full of concepts.
These "concepts" were not put forth by me, therefore, the burden of proof does not fall to me. For now, i will think of them as “straw verses” or “straw concepts.”

Also? You haven't provided verses to back your "verses". I'm not asking Coreopsis ... I'm asking you. Please substantiate your, as yet, non biblical Christian teachings.

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(Evangelical 1:1) Anyone who can say Jesus is Lord and believe it is truly converted.

(Evangelical 1:2) As the term "we are the body of Christ, who is God" would suggest, we are part of God in this sense.

(Evangelical 1:3) Moment by moment repentance is a key teaching as is salvation by Christ alone. That is indisputable. Also if a person truly belongs to Christ then repentance is automatic - turning to Christ IS repentance.
(Emphasis added)
It's a simple question. Without chapter and verse, your "verses" remain your own quotes from the “Book of Evangelical."

Nell

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Old 03-05-2018, 01:22 PM   #42
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These "concepts" were not put forth by me, therefore, the burden of proof does not fall to me. For now, i will think of them as “straw verses” or “straw concepts.”

Also? You haven't provided verses to back your "verses". I'm not asking Coreopsis ... I'm asking you. Please substantiate your, as yet, non biblical Christian teachings.
You have already provided one verse on which I elaborated. My post is a reply to Coreopsis. If I am asked to provide bible verses then they should be as well. Coreopsis has made some serious "accusations" (or at least implications) about local church members and all based on their concept of true repentance and conversion which they gave without biblical support.

If you want to be fair you should also ask Coreopsis to present their bible verses for the following concepts:

"true repentance" - this concept is not clearly found in the bible. People either repented or they didn't. There is no case that I can think of where an apostle said to a new convert - "did you truly repent? maybe your repentance was not true, do it again, try harder!"
"being taught how to repent" - can repentance be learnt or taught or is it something we just do when confronted by a holy God? Again, learning or teaching repentance may not be biblical.

"repenting before God" - what does "before God" mean? When people came to John to be baptised they seemed to repent "before John".

"true repentance leading to true conversion" - that true conversion must be preceded by true repentance may not be the case. This is a long standing debate in Christianity about how a person is saved. Must they repent first or repent later, do they have to repent at all, or does repentance just occur once a person receives the Spirit or believes and confesses Christ? Is repentance simply a change of heart or must a person make a thorough audible confession of all their known sins to be a "true convert"? Must a person cry and sob for it to be genuine repentance or is no tears okay? Can you believe first and repent later?

I'm happy to explore all these from the bible if you want, but leave the Googling to me okay? I do a much better job. I mean, on the one hand you are asking me for bible verses, meanwhile asking Coreopsis to Google and not doing such a good job of it yourself because you only returned a CS article and I found lots of references, over 100.
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Old 03-05-2018, 03:09 PM   #43
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My concern was, does the local church teach repentance, or merely a joining of oneself with their 'denomination' and practices.

Repentance: 2 Cor 7:9,10; Ps 51; Mt 5:3,4; 2 Chr 33:12,13; Mt 3:8; Acts 26:20;
1John 1:9;

Calling Jesus Lord: Mt 7:21-23; James 2:19

One with God? Is 14:12-15; 1 Cor 8:5; Is 46:9;
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Old 03-05-2018, 04:27 PM   #44
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It's all in the gospel tract:

http://www.lsm.org/pdfs/Mystery-of-H...HL-English.pdf
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Old 03-06-2018, 07:01 PM   #45
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Beware of the false teaching in the Mystery of the Human Life.

. God’s PlanGod desires to express Himself through man (Rom. 8:29).
For this purpose, He created man in His own image (Gen.
1:26). Just as a glove is made in the image of a hand to
contain a hand, so also man is made in the
image of God to contain God. By receiving
God as his content, man can express God
(2 Cor. 4:7).

Here is what Romans 8:29 says
Romans 8:29 New International Version (NIV)

29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. Please note that there is no indication in this verse that God wants to express Himself through man.





2 Corinthians 4:7 New International Version (NIV)

7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us. Note that there is nothing in this verse about God wanting to express himself through man.



It's a good sentiment, but not supported by these verses. Maybe E, Drake, or Steel can help direct us to more pertinent versus?


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Old 03-06-2018, 07:04 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by HERn View Post
Beware of the false teaching in the Mystery of the Human Life.

. God’s PlanGod desires to express Himself through man (Rom. 8:29).
For this purpose, He created man in His own image (Gen.
1:26). Just as a glove is made in the image of a hand to
contain a hand, so also man is made in the
image of God to contain God. By receiving
God as his content, man can express God
(2 Cor. 4:7).

Here is what Romans 8:29 says
Romans 8:29 New International Version (NIV)

29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. Please note that there is no indication in this verse that God wants to express Himself through man.





2 Corinthians 4:7 New International Version (NIV)

7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us. Note that there is nothing in this verse about God wanting to express himself through man.



It's a good sentiment, but not supported by these verses. Maybe E, Drake, or Steel can help direct us to more pertinent versus?


Well, an image is an expression of the thing the image represents, not just a cold, carbon copy. We gain this from the biblical meaning of the word image. I guess this is why people like taking pictures of themselves with their mobile phones, and posting on instagram or facebook - they want to express themselves.

The desire to express Himself through man is found more clearly in the next verse, Romans 8:30. Man's glorification, is the expression of God through man.

But my main reason to present the gospel tract is to show that repentance is clearly taught there. Lee also wrote a number of books on repentance.

God being expressed through man is the genuine gospel. Not the "get to heaven or go to hell" gospel. If God's only goal was to get humankind into heaven then this doesn't require glorification or being created in his image. So we ask why we are created in His image, why are we glorified. So we can get to heaven? Obviously we don't get to heaven by being glorified - justification is sufficient. And why be created in His image? We might be a lump of unformed clay and still go to heaven. No, because God wants to be expressed.
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Old 03-06-2018, 07:16 PM   #47
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Well, an image is an expression of the thing the image represents, not just a cold, carbon copy. We gain this from the biblical meaning of the word image. I guess this is why people like taking pictures of themselves with their mobile phones, and posting on instagram or facebook - they want to express themselves.

The desire to express Himself through man is found more clearly in the next verse, Romans 8:30. Man's glorification, is the expression of God through man.

But my main reason to present the gospel tract is to show that repentance is clearly taught there. Lee also wrote a number of books on repentance.

Romans 8:30 New International Version (NIV)

30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

ok. here is the next verse and no indication of God wanting to express himself thru man. What else do you have?
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Old 03-06-2018, 07:16 PM   #48
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Romans 8:30 New International Version (NIV)

30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

ok. here is the next verse and no indication of God wanting to express himself thru man. What else do you have?
Look up the meaning of "glorified".
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Old 03-06-2018, 07:20 PM   #49
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Look up the meaning of "glorified".
You are deceived by Satan, what else do you have?
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Old 03-06-2018, 07:21 PM   #50
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You are deceived by Satan, what else do you have?
You're a slow learner. Like I said, look up the meaning, it's there. This gotquestions article may help you:

https://www.gotquestions.org/glorification.html

Even a non-LC affiliated apologetics website like gotquestions gets it:

"At Christ’s coming, the glory of God (Romans 5:2)—His honor, praise, majesty, and holiness—will be realized in us"


If you don't believe in glorification then you're not really a Christian.
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Old 03-06-2018, 07:24 PM   #51
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Here's what 2 Corinthians 4:7 says. Nothing about expressing God.

2 Corinthians 4:7 New International Version (NIV)

7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us.
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Old 03-06-2018, 07:28 PM   #52
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Here's what 2 Corinthians 4:7 says. Nothing about expressing God.

2 Corinthians 4:7 New International Version (NIV)

7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us.
It's showing that God's power/Spirit is in us, merely jars of clay. Our purpose is not to express clay but to express what is in the jars, which is the treasure. The "low gospel" such as Billy Graham taught only teaches that jars of clay get to heaven. They don't focus on the treasure in the jars.

Let me break it down:

"Show" also means express

"that this all-surpassing power is from God" (i.e. God)

"not from us" - i.e. God alone.

"show power from God not us" = "Express God"


If we're not expressing God we're expressing ourselves (e.g. taking pics of ourselves and putting on facebook) or Satan. It's that simple.
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Old 03-06-2018, 07:30 PM   #53
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It's showing that God's power/Spirit is in us, merely jars of clay. Our purpose is not to express clay but to express what is in the jars.

If we're not expressing God we're expressing ourselves (e.g. taking pics of ourselves and putting on facebook) or Satan. It's that simple.
If the verse does not support your WL teaching, then it's false teaching.
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Old 03-06-2018, 07:32 PM   #54
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If the verse does not support your WL teaching, then it's false teaching.
The only false teacher here is you.
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Old 03-06-2018, 07:40 PM   #55
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The only false teacher here is you.

E, that's a good one. i'm not a teacher you are and i just covered two of your verses, wait till i'm finished with the other verses. maybe you will get one of them right.
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Old 03-06-2018, 07:45 PM   #56
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E, that's a good one. i'm not a teacher you are and i just covered two of your verses, wait till i'm finished with the other verses. maybe you will get one of them right.
Being created in God's image means to express God. It's very simple, I don't know why you are complicating it.

There's a good explanation at gotquestions.org

https://www.gotquestions.org/image-of-God.html

The other relevant verses are the ones about being a light in the world, a lamp on a hill etc.

A light bulb is made to express light.
Humans are made to express God.
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Old 03-06-2018, 07:48 PM   #57
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Being created in God's image means to express God. It's very simple, I don't know why you are complicating it.
Other than fallen human logic, do you have scripture?
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Old 03-06-2018, 07:50 PM   #58
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Other than fallen human logic, do you have scripture?
Genesis 1:27 is the verse, and the meaning is contained in the word image.

This is not a lack of scripture problem, this is lack of comprehension, on your part.

If I can quote gotquestions.org or other sites which confirms Lee's interpretation then I know that Lee is not the problem here.
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Old 03-06-2018, 07:51 PM   #59
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Ephesians 5:18 New International Version (NIV)

18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit,

Nothing here about being filled in the human spirit. Just be filled with the Spirit, maybe in our soul?
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Old 03-06-2018, 07:52 PM   #60
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Ephesians 5:18 New International Version (NIV)

18 Do not get drunk on wine, which leads to debauchery. Instead, be filled with the Spirit,

Nothing here about being filled in the human spirit. Just be filled with the Spirit, maybe in our soul?
To be filled with the Spirit means to have our soul affected by the Spirit to the fullest degree. Where does the Spirit come from? - our spirit. 1 Cor 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. Our spirit and God's spirit are one spirit. For a believer who has the Spirit, to be filled in the "human" spirit is the same as being filled in the Spirit.
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Old 03-06-2018, 07:55 PM   #61
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Genesis 1:27 is the verse, and the meaning is contained in the word image.

This is not a lack of scripture problem, this is lack of comprehension, on your part.

If I can quote gotquestions.org or other sites which confirms Lee's interpretation then I know that Lee is not the problem here.



Here's your verse. And yes, your Lee is the problem.


Genesis 1:27 New International Version (NIV)

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
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Old 03-06-2018, 08:16 PM   #62
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Here's your verse. And yes, your Lee is the problem.


Genesis 1:27 New International Version (NIV)

27 So God created mankind in his own image,
in the image of God he created them;
male and female he created them.
That's the verse, and the meaning is contained in "in his own image".

Logically there are only 4 possibilities:

God wants us to:
a) express nothing
b) express ourselves
c) express Satan
d) express God

If the verse said "So God created mankind in the image of a fish",

then we can deduce that God wants mankind to express fish.

This is simple stuff, I don't know why you struggle with it. Maybe you could share what you believe the purpose of human life is?
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Old 03-06-2018, 08:27 PM   #63
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That's the verse, and the meaning is contained in "in his own image".

Logically there are only 4 possibilities:

God wants us to:
a) express nothing
b) express ourselves
c) express Satan
d) express God

If the verse said "So God created mankind in the image of a fish",

then we can deduce that God wants mankind to express fish.

This is simple stuff, I don't know why you struggle with it. Maybe you could share what you believe the purpose of human life is?
why would u be interested in what i think the purpose of human is?
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Old 03-06-2018, 08:32 PM   #64
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why would u be interested in what i think the purpose of human is?
Because if you deny that it is to "express God" then it must be one of the other four possibilities. Or perhaps you agree it is to express God but disagree with the choice and interpretation of the verses. I concede that the idea of expressing God is mostly a Catholic/Orthodox one, but it is a very old and historical idea, and the idea fell out of favor with the Reformers and evangelicals, with some kind of modern revival by the pentecostals and inner life groups. Yet, most evangelicals don't have a clue what the purpose of human life is - apart from "to sin, to be saved, to go to heaven".
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Old 03-07-2018, 02:14 AM   #65
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Yet, most evangelicals don't have a clue what the purpose of human life is - apart from "to sin, to be saved, to go to heaven".
And with this pitifully poor attitude about fellow Christians, I can understand why you have trouble communicating with others.
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Old 03-07-2018, 05:14 AM   #66
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And with this pitifully poor attitude about fellow Christians, I can understand why you have trouble communicating with others.
Instead of personal attacks, perhaps you could also share what you think the purpose of human life is? HERn seems unwilling or unable to, which confirms my remark about "most evangelicals".
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Old 03-07-2018, 06:55 AM   #67
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You are deceived by Satan, what else do you have?
HERn,

Come on. Really?
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Old 03-08-2018, 02:02 PM   #68
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HERn,

Come on. Really?
They got nothing. Clearly clueless about the meaning of Genesis chapter 1.
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Old 03-08-2018, 07:59 PM   #69
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They got nothing. Clearly clueless about the meaning of Genesis chapter 1.
Seemed like we had arrived to the last line of defense..... the dreaded “nanny nanny boo boo” argument.
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Old 03-16-2018, 11:14 PM   #70
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Let me give you a case study. A disabled brother on pension moved about 40 miles outside the city where housing is cheap. I periodically call him. He bemoans the fact that "the saints" have abandoned him, don't visit him, etc. I ask why not visit with some of the Christians near him? No, he replies; "I am absolute". This man won't have anything to do with "Christianity" because he is completely sold out for the local church, and the local church won't have anything to do with him because they don't consider him "good building material".
This reminds me of a personal experience. Please know, I say this with love and respect for my dad- but he was taught this “good building material” mindset it seems...

It was pretty common for saints to live close to the meeting hall, that way fellowship was easier- makes sense! There was a certain brother though (really admire him and his wife) who decided to build a big house in the country, almost an hr away from the meeting hall. They built it themselves and I’m sure saved a lot of money by doing it that way! I remember my dad was (sadly) very critical of this. He didn’t think it was “good for the church.”

The interesting thing though is that house turned into YP central for probably decades now. We just caravaned out to the country for Saturday YP meetings. They built zip lines in their backyard, a rock climbing wall, had bon fires, even a pool table. Aside from all the forced participation stuff, I have some really great memories in that home. Also, a lot of the saints were married there and it was a little
more fun than the typical “wedding meeting.”

Just goes to show the blessings that can happen when you listen to the Lord instead of the elders, who might mean well- it’s just not their place. I’m not implying there’s not a need for elders or leading ones but ultimately- it’s not their place to tell anyone what to do and definitely not their place to judge you or condemn you for a decision you make that they don’t agree with. Unfortunately, what I saw growing up was people just going with the flow of everyone around them, which results in a lot of people dressing the same, talking with the same intonations/verbage, even decorating their home the same. I’m sure anyone who ever spent time in the LC could accurately describe the way many of their homes look! Put all the LSM books on display, a few pics are ok, not too much, framed versus on the wall, simple, no personality allowed, ha! Sorry, I’m kind of teasing them- I don’t care, it’s just funny to me.

Sorry to change the topic here, was glad to be reminded of this though after reading this thread
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