The Incompleteness of WL's Ministry

[kisstheson]

Hello dear ones,

At some point earlier in this decade (approximately 2002 or 2003), brother Ron Kangas stated in a message words very similar to these: “The written ministry we have received from Brother Lee is detailed, complete, and balanced, with every point receiving just the right amount of emphasis.” (I am obviously relying on memory, but his words were very, very, close to these. I vividly remember this speaking because it was the boldest speaking about WL’s ministry that I had heard up to that point. And at the time I was fully inclined to believe such speaking!)

Fast forward to October 31st, 2008. It has been almost two years since the Lord led my family and I to stop meeting with the LC. Even before my family and I stopped meeting, I was already beginning to immerse myself in the writings of other gifted ministers of Christ besides WL. I made an amazing discovery - many dear brothers and sisters in Christ have shared on various topics in a much deeper, richer, way than WL ever did. Some opened up various portions of the Scriptures better than Lee did, some expounded on various matters related to the Christian life better than Lee did, and some investigated matters related to eschatology, ecclesiology, pneumatology, etc. better than Lee did. On the one hand, this should not come as a surprise at all, since WL was, after all, only one man. On the other hand, for anyone who has lived in a region that had been solidly pro-LSM for decades, the fact that WL’s ministry is not "the final court of appeals" on all matters may come as something of a shock.

My primary interest in this thread is not to critique WL’s writings, either pro or con, but to simply point out those writings of other gifted ministers of Christ which I have encountered that do indeed fill up a lack in WL’s ministry. I invite all of you to join with me and share as well!

A disclaimer – the “seed” of the burden from which this thread sprang forth was a post I put together on “that other forum” during our fast and furious exchanges with brother “cuttingstraight”. I mentioned several writings of other ministers of Christ which covered certain specific matters in a fuller, more complete, way than WL ever did. At the end of that post, I stated “I could go on and on . . .”. Well, brother “cuttingstraight” responded, in his usual style (“Dear brother kisstheson, thank you for your post . . .” ). To my surprise, brother Ohio responded as well. I had stated “I could go on and on . . . “, to which brother Ohio responded, “Dear brother, I wish you would.” My point is this – before the Lord I feel strongly that I should respect dear brother Ohio’s burden. And so, if you don’t like this thread, don’t blame me, blame Ohio!

[kisstheson]

OK. Let’s start out with a very straightforward and obvious example of a brother who expounded deeply on one of the books of the Bible which WL touched in a very light way. I am sure you are all familiar with the history of the Life Studies. Beginning in 1974, WL held weekly meetings to go through the Life Study of Genesis, followed by weekly meetings to go through the Life Study of Exodus. At the same time, WL was holding biannual trainings for the Life Studies of the NT books. The NT Life Studies would often be supplemented by other conferences outside of the biannual trainings. In other words, the Life Studies of Genesis, Exodus, and all the New Testament books, were, by and large (but not always), a detailed exposition, on a verse-by-verse basis. When the NT Life Studies were completed in the mid-1980’s, WL spent several biannual trainings on matters like “The Conclusion of the New Testament” and “The New Way/The God-Ordained Way”.

When the Life Studies of the Old Testament books were resumed in the late 1980’s, the pace picked up rather noticeably. This was very evident from the Life Study of Numbers, where we started to get one message covering either half of a chapter from the Bible, or, in many cases, one message covering a whole chapter. With some rare exceptions, this continued through 1 & 2 Samuel. The pace then sped up even more beginning with the Life Study of 1 & 2 Kings. Now multiple chapters of the Bible were being covered in one message. This very fast pace continued right through the final Life Study Training (8 messages to cover the 31 chapters of Proverbs and 2 messages to cover the 12 chapters of Ecclesiastes before WL slowed down to cover Song of Songs in some depth).

One of the Old Testament books that got somewhat overlooked in this rush was the book of Esther. WL covered five OT books in the 1994 Winter Training: 1 & 2 Chronicles, Ezra, Nehemiah, and Esther. Esther, an OT book with 10 chapters, was covered in two rather brief messages. WL emphasized two points from the book of Esther: God’s hidden care for His people even in their captivity and God’s faithfulness to His Word. These are very good points, but for someone who had shown us "Christ and the Church" on every page of Scripture, there was a whole lot of rich detail, a whole lot of rich typology, and a whole lot of practical application in the book of Esther that he never touched.

Therefore, I present dear brother Ian Thomas’ book If I Perish, I Perish (originally published in 1967) as a much better exposition of the book of Esther. Brother Ian Thomas’ book really digs into the typology in the book of Esther. He points out that the different characters in Esther represent the different parts of the tripartite man. Mordecai represents the Holy Spirit and the whole book presents a detailed and rich portrait of the Holy Spirit’s work of regeneration and gradual transformation within God’s NT children. In Ian Thomas’ outline of Esther, the sections are: the Holy Spirit resisted, the Holy Spirit received, the Holy Spirit grieved, the Holy Spirit quenched, the Holy Spirit obeyed, and the Fullness of the Holy Spirit. All throughout brother Thomas’ book, NT verses are referenced which explain the spiritual reality of what the pictures in the book of Esther are showing. Brother Thomas’ book is truly a marvelous, helpful, enlightening book, much more so than WL’s Life Study of Esther.

[UntoHim]

Thanks kisstheson for starting this thread.

Anybody who has followed my little act over the years knows that I would consider the ministry of Witness Lee something far, far worse then "incomplete". Nevertheless, I will try to contain myself (just on this thread though)

Firstly, I think we should keep in mind who or what is the origin of this rather preposterous notion that any one man can have a "complete" ministry. For the purposes of our discussions, I think this notion could be traced directly to Watchman Nee.

Nee found the ministries of the Western missionaries to be rather shallow, and certainly incomplete as far as the "higher" biblical truths. (and who could blame him) Some of the main things that Nee found to be incomplete were the teachings and practices of "The Church". Nee, being a Chinese native, was much more concerned with the long term care and building up of Chinese Christians, while the missionaries, for the most part, were there to "save souls". Now, looking back over many years, it is easy enough to see that neither the missionaries NOR Watchman Nee had a "complete" ministry - rather they were BOTH part of the one, blessed and complete ministry.

Whether Witness Lee picked up this notion of one man having a "complete" ministry from Watchman Nee, or simply took Nee's apparent error here and greatly magnified it (as he did with many of Nee's teachings) is almost immaterial at this point. Somehow, some way, Witness Lee convinced a whole lot of people that his little personal "ministry" was THE complete "one ministry for the age". Thankfully, many are now coming to the realization that the very notion that the ministry of one man is "complete" is not only preposterous, it is downright dangerous.

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by kisstheson

2 messages to cover the 12 chapters of Ecclesiastes

That's a generous description!

It's less than 15 total pages!

The two "messages" are barely more than outlines.

And they only deal with the first and last chapters!

I never looked at "LS Ecclesiastes" before.

:rollingeyes2:

I would humbly suggest that it would be at least as important to study Eccl. 10:1 as the leprosy in the wall in Leviticus:

"Dead flies make the perfumer's ointment give off an evil odor; so a little folly outweighs wisdom and honor."

But perhaps not.

Does anyone among us here need an interpretation of this verse?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Anybody who has followed my little act over the years knows that I would consider the ministry of Witness Lee something far, far worse then "incomplete". Firstly, I think we should keep in mind who or what is the origin of this rather preposterous notion that any one man can have a "complete" ministry. For the purposes of our discussions, I think this notion could be traced directly to Watchman Nee.

UntoHim, I really need some support from you to accept this thought. This is the opposite of my current understanding. Can you elaborate and support it?

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Can you elaborate and support it?

Oh, probably not without taking this thread way off track. Did you miss this part of my post...

Originally Posted by UntoHim

..Whether Witness Lee picked up this notion of one man having a "complete" ministry from Watchman Nee, or simply took Nee's apparent error here and greatly magnified it (as he did with many of Nee's teachings) is almost immaterial at this point.

If you want to join me over on this board
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...splay.php?f=14
I will be glad to duke it out with you there

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by kisstheson

A disclaimer – the “seed” of the burden from which this thread sprang forth was a post I put together on “that other forum” during our fast and furious exchanges with brother “cuttingstraight”. I mentioned several writings of other ministers of Christ which covered certain specific matters in a fuller, more complete, way than WL ever did. At the end of that post, I stated “I could go on and on . . .”. Well, brother “cuttingstraight” responded, in his usual style (“Dear brother kisstheson, thank you for your post . . .” ). To my surprise, brother Ohio responded as well. I had stated “I could go on and on . . . “, to which brother Ohio responded, “Dear brother, I wish you would.” My point is this – before the Lord I feel strongly that I should respect dear brother Ohio’s burden. And so, if you don’t like this thread, don’t blame me, blame Ohio!

I like this thread, I like this thread! I remember those exchanges with cuttingstraight! How could I forget that time!?!

KTS, reading your testimony again, I am amazed that more real seekers of Christ in the LC's, have not reached the same conclusions. Keep seeking!

Quick testimony. Back in ~'89, a brother I was laboring with then, told me this one day: "I spent far more time laboring in the scripture before I met with the LC." By that time, we had together gone thru several years of unending changes during the 80's concerning the "new way."

His comment always bothered me. At that point I was the "senior" with 2 migrations and a decade and a half serving in the LC's. He only had several years, hence, I dismissed his comment as "immaturity." But, looking back, he was right on!

The "ministry" filled us with many "lies" and so many "broken promises." I wanted to believe them. I wanted to believe them all. By then, I had too much invested not too! But what do I do about all the plain facts? We had become a people of endless changes, looking for the ultimate "way" or "new way" to bear fruit and bring the Lord back, but ... no "way" worked! No "way" could work! "Unless the Lord build the house, the laborers labor in vain." And ... all our work took us further away from the Lord! But ... it was supposed to bring us closer to Him! So ... I dare dare not bring up the topic to other brothers, lest I "blow cold winds." By then so many of us had traded in our "seeking" for all the "doing" that was required of us. How sad!

Anyways, keep posting! I am reading!

[kisstheson]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Oh, probably not without taking this thread way off track. Did you miss this part of my post...


If you want to join me over on this board
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...splay.php?f=14
I will be glad to duke it out with you there

Dear brothers Ohio and UntoHim,

Thank you so much for not derailing this thread! I appreciate your respect for the burden of the Lord in this present thread. We don't need any "flies in the ointment" here! (Thanks for the verse reference from Ecclesiastes, YP0534!)

I took the liberty of opening a new thread entitled "Early Nee" vs. "Later Nee'" on the "If You Really Nee To Know" sub-forum. I hope that new thread proves to be a useful beginning for a profitable discussion in the Lord.

[kisstheson]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Anybody who has followed my little act over the years knows that I would consider the ministry of Witness Lee something far, far worse then "incomplete". Nevertheless, I will try to contain myself (just on this thread though)

I appreciate your willingness to contain yourself, dear brother UntoHim!

Like I stated in my opening post, I foresee this being a thread whose purpose is not to critique WL’s ministry, either pro or con. Rather, I foresee a thread whose purpose is to point out the writings of other gifted ministers of Christ who covered certain matters in a better, fuller, more complete, way than WL did. My hope is that easily verifiable historical facts will be presented, facts that anyone can verify for themselves by looking at their own LSM publications or by going to lsm.org.

I do believe there is something of the Lord in all this, since the string of events which led up to this point has been rather remarkable. Just yesterday I received a PM from a dear brother who opened his heart and stated a “mission statement” for this thread in much clearer terms than I ever could have done!

One thing we should be thankful for regarding our time inside the LC is this: We truly were exposed to a good bit of the best writings from historical Christianity, across the spectrum of denominations and affiliations. From Luther to Guyon! From Darby to TAS! As a group we really have passed through something together that has equipped us to present the rich and diverse spiritual heritage of Christian writings in an unbiased way. This rich and diverse spiritual heritage is not ours alone – it is the birthright of every born-again believer. As we have all experienced for ourselves, many of these riches reside outside of the LSM presses! Those inside the LC may very well be completely unaware of these others riches. And those outside the LC may be surrounded by such a dizzying assortment of Christian literature that they would welcome any help they can get in separating the wheat from the chaff.

I love you in Christ, dear brother.

[kisstheson]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I like this thread, I like this thread! I remember those exchanges with cuttingstraight! How could I forget that time!?!

KTS, reading your testimony again, I am amazed that more real seekers of Christ in the LC's, have not reached the same conclusions. Keep seeking!

Quick testimony. Back in ~'89, a brother I was laboring with then, told me this one day: "I spent far more time laboring in the scripture before I met with the LC." By that time, we had together gone thru several years of unending changes during the 80's concerning the "new way."

His comment always bothered me. At that point I was the "senior" with 2 migrations and a decade and a half serving in the LC's. He only had several years, hence, I dismissed his comment as "immaturity." But, looking back, he was right on!

Anyways, keep posting! I am reading!

Dear brother Ohio. Thanks for the encouragement! It means a lot to me, it really does.

May many of those in the LC come to see that they were not given a complete package after all. May they come to see that in many areas where WL's portion is incomplete, other gifted ministers have a wonderfully rich portion that fills the gap. The truly "complete" ministry can only be known when we open ourselves to receive spiritual help from all gifted ministers of Christ. That would include opening ourselves to frequently receive spiritual help directly from the written Word of God!

[kisstheson]

Originally Posted by YP0534

That's a generous description!

It's less than 15 total pages!

The two "messages" are barely more than outlines.

And they only deal with the first and last chapters!

I never looked at "LS Ecclesiastes" before.

:rollingeyes2:

I would humbly suggest that it would be at least as important to study Eccl. 10:1 as the leprosy in the wall in Leviticus:

"Dead flies make the perfumer's ointment give off an evil odor; so a little folly outweighs wisdom and honor."

But perhaps not.

Does anyone among us here need an interpretation of this verse?

Dear brother YP0534,

I am very glad that you checked out what I said for yourself. Yes, my description of "brief" is probably too generous. Whole chapters of Ecclesiastes are sometimes covered in one page of the Life Study. A lot of the speaking in the Life Study is simply a restating of the points on the outline. Ultimately, however, what is the most serious is that many verses of Ecclesiastes, with all their rich detail, were never covered at all.

This is also the case with the Life Study of Esther. There are only two messages to cover an OT History book containing ten chapters. The second message is almost entirely a plain retelling of the story in the book of Esther, with no interpretation. So much rich detail, so much typology, was never touched. Anyone desirous of being blessed by the richness of the divine revelation in Esther will have to look elsewhere. I can think of no richer interpretation of Esther than brother Ian Thomas' book If I Perish, I Perish.

[Hope]

Dear KTS,

I heard the spoken messages by Ian Thomas from which the book was composed. They were a life changer for me. My Christian life took off after that experience. Thomas was traveling in Texas in 1963-64 and in many ways set the stage for Brother Lee. He caused Don Looper and many others as well as myself to have a craving for more of Christ than what we were receiving in the Baptist denomination. I still regularly contemplate the practical truths I learned from Major Ian Thomas. In fact, when I was considering if there was a future with the LSM and what course I should take I quoted this verse to brothers with whom I was in fellowship, “If I perish I perish.”

A believer in Jesus Christ, who is seeking to be a true disciple,

Hope, Don Rutledge

[kisstheson]

Dear brother Hope,

That is quite a testimony! There really is a lot of power in those words "If I perish, I perish", isn't there? What a wonderful attitude of abandonment to the Lord is contained in those words.

You heard those messages in person?! I am jealous! (In a good way! ) Those messages by brother Ian Thomas had a similar effect on me. I first heard them in my home church not that long ago. We all had purchased a copy of If I Perish, I Perish and we also had a set of the audio tapes. What a rich time we had going through those messages! I really appreciated the way brother Thomas unveiled the flow of the spiritual typology in Esther in a very practical way. What a marvelous picture of the Holy Spirit's transformation work within us. For the record, we also went through brother Thomas' messages entitled The Saving Life of Christ in a similar way.

Your testimony definitely points out that even in his early days in the U.S., brother WL was not complete in himself. At least in part, he reaped what brother Ian Thomas had previously sown. There really is a marvelous interdependency amongst all believers in Christ, and we desperately need one another. We can not afford to draw lines around those from whom we will receive the supply from the Head and those from whom we will not receive the supply.

May God be merciful to us all.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by kisstheson

One thing we should be thankful for regarding our time inside the LC is this: We truly were exposed to a good bit of the best writings from historical Christianity, across the spectrum of denominations and affiliations. From Luther to Guyon! From Darby to TAS!

kisstheson, I would strongly disagree that we were properly exposed to the writings of other Christian teachers and scholars. The way for people to be exposed to such things is let them read the works for themselves and decide for themselves what is "the meat" and what might be "the bones". I don't know that much about Nee in this regard (very few do), but Witness Lee strongly discouraged (forbid would be more accurate) his followers from delving into the actual works in full - rather he told them he had already decided for them what was the meat and what was the bones to be discarded. Of course this could be taken as a fatherly figure protecting his children, but we can no longer take for granted that Witness Lee had such altruistic motives here. In fact we have every reason to believe that Lee discouraged us for the very reasons that kisstheson is bringing up in this thread.

“From Luther to Guyon! From Darby to TAS!”

I must point out a glaring shortfall with this. None of these were contemporaries of Witness Lee. (Sparks was virtually stricken from the record by Lee and was certainly never an influence from the time Lee came to America). Of course we found out later that Witness Lee did not consider any contemporary teacher or scholar worthy of serious consideration. So are we to believe that since the death of Watchman Nee and T. Austin Sparks, Witness Lee was the only person on earth speaking anything worthy of our consideration? I understand that kisstheson is NOT implying this, but I want to point out the apparent non sequitur here before we march too far down the road.

I have not posted these things to stop, or even slow down, the discussion here. All I am saying is that is order to fairly and completely...

Originally Posted by kisstheson

…point out the writings of other gifted ministers of Christ who covered certain matters in a better, fuller, more complete, way than WL did

…we would do well to take into consideration the writings/speaking of a number of contemporary Christian teachers, ministers and scholars. I hesitate to mention names, let’s just say that I am speaking of people who are actually living and breathing and ministering to the Body of Christ in the here and now. When I have time I will bring up names and examples of other gifted ministers of Christ who have been covering certain matters in a better, fuller and more complete way then Witness Lee did.

[kisstheson]

UntoHim! You promised to try to contain yourself! Obviously I speak in jest. After all we have been through, I would hope we would always allow one another to be fully genuine and forthright.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

kisstheson, I would strongly disagree that we were properly exposed to the writings of other Christian teachers and scholars. The way for people to be exposed to such things is let them read the works for themselves and decide for themselves what is "the meat" and what might be "the bones".

I fully understand your objection. While we definitely were not properly exposed to the writings of other Christian teachers and scholars in the LC, we were nonetheless exposed to the writings of other Christian teachers and scholars. This took place more through WN’s ministry than through WL’s ministry, no doubt about it. WN’s one message “What Are We?” spoken in 1934 is an excellent introduction to the writings of dozens of gifted Christian ministers, several of whom were contemporaries of WN at that time. I guess my main point is that despite all the later attempts to limit our exposure to other ministries, our Lord did manage to gain a group of us who have developed a deep appreciation for Christ-centered ministry. I am not so much concerned with the actions of WL or the BB’s on this point; rather, I am much more focused on what our Lord has gained in us in spite of everything. I am very thankful to Him and at the same time I feel a strong burden to let all of God’s children (both inside and outside the LC) know about all the rich ministries that exist out there (Hence this thread).

Originally Posted by UntoHim

So are we to believe that since the death of Watchman Nee and T. Austin Sparks, Witness Lee was the only person on earth speaking anything worthy of our consideration? I understand that kisstheson is NOT implying this, but I want to point out the apparent non sequitur here before we march too far down the road.

We are definitely NOT to believe that since the death of Watchman Nee and T. Austin Sparks, Witness Lee was the only person on earth speaking anything worthy of our consideration! Let me go on record and say that I am NOT implying this in any way, shape, or form. The example of brother Ian Thomas is just one among many whose speaking was definitely worthy of attention. Our brother Ian Thomas went to be with the Lord not that long ago (on August 1, 2007). He lived from 1914 to 2007, so now we know of at least one brother contemporary to WL whose speaking was worthy of our consideration. Please see brother Hope’s testimony and the testimony of my home church regarding the rich blessing we received through the anointed speaking of Ian Thomas.

Originally Posted by UntoHim

When I have time I will bring up names and examples of other gifted ministers of Christ who have been covering certain matters in a better, fuller and more complete way then Witness Lee did.

Excellent! I really believe that this is exactly the reason why our Lord wanted this thread to be opened in the first place! Please share!

[kisstheson]

Wow! I just had a neat experience and it relates to the discussion on this thread. I was listening to an audio tape of a message spoken by TAS back in 1965. The title of the series of messages was “God’s Supreme Interest in Man”. The actual message title is rather intriguing: “The Exclusiveness and Inclusiveness of Christ”.

Brother TAS was expounding on the phrase “the man so-and-so” found throughout the OT. For example, Numbers 12:3 says “Now the man Moses was very meek . . .”. Why not simply say “Now Moses was very meek . . .”? Why do the Scriptures add the words “the man”? TAS was explaining this phrase “the man” and he came to Esther 9:4b, “for the man Mordecai became continually greater”.

TAS began speaking of the history of Mordecai in the book of Esther. Some very interesting typology began to unfold. In the book of Daniel the three friends of Daniel refused to bow down and worship the golden idol and only the three friends of Daniel were thrown into the fiery furnace. In contrast, in the book of Esther when Mordecai refuses to bow down to Haman, Haman flies into a rage and right away Haman seeks to destroy not Mordecai individually, but ALL “the people of Mordecai”! (see Esther 3:6). Haman received letters of permission from the king to carry out his evil plan. Sound familiar? Just as Saul of Tarsus persecuted Christ when he persecuted the people of Christ and our Lord Jesus Christ did something about it, so Haman affected Mordecai by persecuting “the people of Mordecai” and Mordecai did something about it. Quite a picture! It enriches my understanding of the NT phrase "Saul, Saul, why do your persecute Me?"

Anyway, the point is that even with all the riches in brother Ian Thomas’ book If I Perish, I Perish, it still takes the portions of many gifted ministers of Christ to bring out all the riches of a Scriptural book like Esther. Praise the Lord for brother Ian Thomas’ portion of the New Testament ministry! Prasie the Lord for brother TAS’s portion of the New Testament ministry! Prasie the Lord that each of these brothers enriches my spiritual understaning of the book of Esther!

“In the multitude of counselors there is safety”! (Proverbs 11:14b and 24:6b)

[kisstheson]

Dear ones,

I have a list of examples of “the incompleteness of WL’s ministry” to present to you, but before I move on to the next example, I thought I should share a little bit more about our dear brother “Major” Ian Thomas.

Besides his very detailed and very rich study on the book of Esther entitled If I Perish, I Perish: The Christian Life as Seen in Esther, brother Thomas wrote three other books that are also excellent studies related to Christ being everything to us and various practical matters of the Christian life. The titles of these three other books are as follows:

1. The Indwelling Life of Christ: All of Him in All of Me
2. The Mystery of Godliness
3. The Saving Life of Christ

If you are currently “Lee-only”, I present these four books as very safe reading. The subject matter in these books will be very familiar to anyone who has ever been involved with the LC: Christ as everything to us, “Not I but Christ”, the tripartitie man, transformation, the flesh opposing the spirit, etc. The only adjustment that a reader will have to make is an obvious one: the reader will have to recognize that brother Ian Thomas does not use some of WL’s unique vocabulary. For example, Ian Thomas will use the phrase “God’s eternal purpose” whereas WL would use “God’s eternal economy”. Ian Thomas will simply say “The Holy Spirit” whereas WL would say “The processed, consummated, compound, all-inclusive, sevenfold-intensified, life-giving Spirit”.

I really believe that any fair-minded seeker who compares WL’s Life Study of Esther with Ian Thomas’ book If I Perish, I Perish: The Christian Life as Seen in Esther will see the great value of Ian Thomas’ book. To be fair, WL’s Life Study of Esther is not really worthy of the name “Study”; rather, due to its brevity and the very high-level view adopted, WL’s Life Study of Esther really should be called "The Life Synopsis of Esther”, similar to Darby’s Synopsis of the Books of the Bible. If you seek a much more thorough and detailed view of the book of Esther seen through the lens of “Life”, brother Thomas’ book is by far the superior choice.

[Cal]

RE: The Brevity of Lee's Life-Study of Esther

It's very misleading to say Witness Lee "completed" a full study of the Old Testament. Many of his studies of the minor prophets are merely outlines of the books' texts, with little added save yet another foray into his view of "God's economy."


As for Ian Thomas. I don't know much about him. But it seems this thread is somewhat about finding someone who is similar enough to Lee to replace him.

It seems to me that LCers don't need someone similar to Lee. They need someone different.

The fact is there is much lacking in the biblical perspective of LCers. For example, they think that the two greatest commandments are (1) be in the divine dispensing and (2) build the church, when in fact they are (1) love God and (2) love people. This is just one example of their error, but there are more.

[kisstheson]

Hello dear brother Igzy,

Thank you for corroborating what I have been saying about WL's OT Life Studies. Yes, what you say about many of the books of the minor prophets is one more example where a "Synopsis" was given, rather than a true "Study".

My burden for this thread is to really zero in on this point of "incompleteness", using easily verifiable facts. As I am sure you are aware, for a "hard-core" Lee-only person, the very thought that other brothers and sisters shared on various topics in a better way than WL ever did will come as a real shock. And yet, because this claim that others shared is a better way is easily verfiable, the underlying facts could very well serve as the initial catylst which causes the whole LC "house of cards" to collapse for some seeking ones. It is for such ones that I dedicate this thread.

I started this thread with a very safe example: Ian Thomas' detailed study of Esther compared to WL's brief "Life Study". My second example, which Lord willing I will share very soon, concerns another brother (i.e. not Ian Thomas). I am most definitely NOT trying to replace one "THE minister of the age" with another "THE minister of the age".

I definitely agree with your closing paragraph. I think you will probably see this thread get bolder and bolder over time. Just give it some time for the fact of "incompleteness" to be solidly established.

[kisstheson]

Who can believe it?! WL’s Life Study of Genesis contains 120 messages, some of them rather lengthy. Since Genesis is a book of 50 chapters, 120 lengthy messages surely covers each chapter in adequate detail, right? Didn’t the Life Study of Genesis proceed chapter-by-chapter and verse-by-verse? Well . . . you may be rather surprised to learn that one important chapter in Genesis is almost passed over without comment.

Lest you think I am being overly unfair, I am not referring to Genesis chapter 36. Chapter 36 is a detailed listing of the descendants of Esau. There are a few interesting details here, but since the rest of Genesis focuses on Jacob, and it is through Jacob, not Esau, that Jesus Christ came forth, I can understand not wanting to dwell on the detailed genealogy of Esau in chapter 36.

I am thinking of a chapter in Genesis that bears directly on the lineage that brought forth Christ and a chapter whose details are specifically mentioned in the genealogy of Christ given in Matthew chapter one. Somehow, this chapter got overlooked in the Life Study of Genesis. How did this happen? Well, consider how the story-line unfolds in Genesis. In the early chapters, the history is fairly “linear”, focusing on one generation at a time. Once the history of Abraham begins to develop, however, the history becomes more complicated and more intertwined since the stories of the generations overlap (i.e. Abraham’s history overlaps with that of Ishmael and Isaac, Isaac’s history overlaps with that of Esau and Jacob, Jacob’s history overlaps with that of his sons).

By the time the story reaches Jacob and Joseph in the final chapters, the plot lines become hopelessly intertwined. To deal with this situation, WL first covered the last fourteen chapters of Genesis from the point of view of Jacob and he then went back and covered these same fourteen chapters from the point of view of Joseph. (I have maintained on another thread that WL was relying a good deal on the spiritual biography series written by F.B. Meyer at this point in the Life Study of Genesis. F. B. Meyer wrote a book entitled Israel [i.e. Jacob] and a book entitled Jospeh.) This is an OK approach, except for the fact that there is one chapter that covers neither Jacob nor Joseph – Genesis chapter 38! This is the chapter where Judah departs form his brothers for a time and all the events related to his first three sons, his incest with Tamar, and the twin sons born to Tamar take place. This chapter unlocks the phrase “And Judah begot Perez and Zerah of Tamar” in Matthew 1:3b.

It is not that WL never mentions chapter 38 – there is one paragraph devoted to Perez and Zerah in message 96 and in messages 110 and 111 we have chapter 38 mentioned in a very general way. Many of the details in this chapter, however, are never touched upon by WL, which is a shame since the Lord’s gradual gaining of a heart of love in Judah is one of the precious gems hidden in the second half of Genesis. If you would like to hear a sweet unveiling of the story of Judah, you should listen to dear brother John Saunder’s message “Built by the Love of Christ” given in June of 2004. John Saunders was a dear brother in that assembly in Memphis, TN, which has no name but which bears such a sweet fragrance of the Lord.

You will really be blessed by listening to this message. The first half of the message is full of NT verses, but the second half contains the story of how the Lord gained a heart of love in Judah. To listen to the message, go to christiantapeministry.com and click on the link to “Speakers”, then the link to “Saunders, John (13)” then the link to “Built by the Love of Christ”, and then the link to “Listen”. Enjoy and be blessed!

[Cal]

KTS,

I see your point now. Please carry on.

[kisstheson]

Originally Posted by Igzy

KTS,

I see your point now. Please carry on.

Thank you, dear brother Igzy. If during your times of reading or listening to a message given by a brother or sister in Christ you ever have the sense "Witness Lee never talked about that!" or "Witness Lee never covered that subject in a proper way!", please feel free to share it on this thread!

I have a list that I have been compiling ever since I was led out of the LC, but I am just one brother. It would be great to see others post examples of the incompleteness of WL's ministry as well.

BTW - I think you would really enjoy listening to the message given by dear brother John Saunders which I referenced in my last post (Post #20). It is definitely refreshing to hear someone speak who considers brotherly love to be vitally important.

[kisstheson]

Dear ones,

I just listened again to dear brother John Saunders’ message “Built by the Love of Christ” spoken in June of 2004. I am impressed all over again with how our Lord led brother John to tie together all the mentions of Judah in the book of Genesis to create such a beautiful message. The second half of this message centers on the all the dealings Judah went through in order for the Lord to produce a heart of true brotherly love in him.

Due to WL’s approach in expounding the last 14 chapters of Genesis, he never tied together all these mentions of Judah. WL first expounded these 14 chapters from the point of view of Jacob, and then went back and expounded them from the point of view of Joseph. This is all well and good, but this leaves out an expounding of the story of Judah. Judah's role in these 14 chapters, while certainly less than that of Jacob and Joseph, is still very prominent. Consider the following facts from the book of Genesis:

1. It was Judah who recommended that Joseph be sold to the caravan that was traveling to Egypt (37:26-28).
2. There is a whole chapter (chapter 38) that deals with Judah and his experiences during the many years in which he was separated from the rest of his family. This is a very important chapter in that it covers another step in the lineage that brought forth Jesus Christ.
3. It was Judah who offered himself to Jacob as a guarantee that Benjamin would be brought back safely from Egypt (43:8-9).
4. It was Judah’s long humbling and abasing of himself that finally led Joseph to reveal himself to his brothers (44:16-45:1).
5. Verses like 44:14 and 46:28 point out the prominence of Judah (“When Judah and his brothers came to Joseph’s house . . .” [44:14], “Now he [Jacob] sent Judah before him to Joseph . . .” [46:28]).

By giving only brief references to Judah’s experiences, including very brief references to an entire chapter (chapter 38) and very brief references to Judah’s lengthy humbling and abasing of himself in eighteen verses in chapter 44, WL left an unfilled gap in his normally detailed Life Study of Genesis. WL really should have devoted an entire message to Judah, or at least a significant portion of a message. Because his Life Study of Genesis is incomplete in this regard, and because John Saunders did such a marvelous job tying together the experiences of Judah in the second half of his spoken message “Built by the Love of Christ”, I present this as a second example of the incompleteness of WL’s ministry. I also present dear brother John Saunders as a gifted minister of Christ who was a contemporary of WL and whose speaking is well worthy of our consideration.

[kisstheson]

Over on that “other discussion forum”, a discussion is taking place related to the utterance of Bishop Athanasius which, with qualifications, WL said was "the high peak of the Divine revelation”. A key point in this discussion is the question of whether or not we can say that the "High Peak" utterance is Scriptural. To some, the two mysterious verses in John chapter 10 (vv. 34 & 35) are indeed proof of the “High Peak” utterance, whereas to others these verses in John in no way prove the “High Peak” utterance. Sticking to the point of this thread as stated in the opening post, I will not argue one way or the other; rather, I will simply share an experience I had while I was investigating these verses.

John 10:34-35 are certainly verses that boggle the natural mind and cry out for proper exposition! These verses state “Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, “I said, You are gods”? If He said they were gods, to whom the word of God came, and the Scripture cannot be broken, . . .” What in the world is going on with this word “gods” in these verses? What about the OT verse that Jesus is quoting from here, Psalm 82:6? I just had to find out more!

First, I checked the footnotes in the Recovery Version. To my disappointment, there are no footnotes covering either verse 34 or verse 35. OK, I thought, I will just have to dig into the Life Study of John. I was shocked when I saw that the message which covers John chapter 10, which is message 22, jumps from 10:33 directly to 10:41-42, with only a passing reference to 10:39. I remembered that WL revisited the Gospel of John in the early 1980’s, so I looked at The Fulfillment of the Tabernacle and the Offerings in the Writings of John. There are two chapters in this book which cover John 10, chapters 27 and 28. I came away very disappointed, as verses 34 and 35 are once again completely ignored. This left only the Crystallization-Study of the Gospel of John spoken by WL in the summer training of 1996. In message 12 I found some speaking that appears to borrow the word "gods" from John 10:34 and 35, but still there was no mention and no exposition of verses 34 and 35.

Things did not get any better when I dug into Psalm 82:6. In Christ and the Church Revealed and Typified in the Psalms, WL covers Psalms 81-83 very briefly. He even states, “In Psalms 81 through 83 there are not many crystals, but there are two points which indicate God’s intention is to inherit the earth.” These “two points” are a reference to Psalm 82:8 and Psalm 83:12. There is no mention of Psalm 82:6. In the Life Study of Psalms, WL covered Psalms 77-83 in one message. Psalm 82 is covered in two brief paragraphs and all WL says about verse 82:6 is “Psalm 82:6 is quoted by the Lord Jesus in John 10:34 and 35.“

What was I to do? Turning back the clock three centuries to 1710, I consulted Matthew Henry’s Commentary on the Whole Bible (the unabridged version). I had forgotten that brother Matthew Henry’s commentary is a true chapter-by-chapter, verse-by-verse, study of the Bible. I was delighted to find a very helpful discussion in the portions covering both John 10:34-35 and Psalm 82:6. While modern renderings of Matthew Henry’s Commentary on the Whole Bible are copywritten, the original is in the public domain and can readily be found on the web. For example, click here for a link. After clicking on this link, choose which book of the Bible you would like to read about from the drop-down box.

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by kisstheson

What was I to do? Turning back the clock three centuries to 1710, I consulted Matthew Henry’s Commentary on the Whole Bible (the unabridged version). I had forgotten that brother Matthew Henry’s commentary is a true chapter-by-chapter, verse-by-verse, study of the Bible. I was delighted to find a very helpful discussion in the portions covering both John 10:34-35 and Psalm 82:6.

I always take great delight when I find new lacunae in Lee's writings because this phenomenon powerfully demonstrates that we have more work to do on our own in God's Word! I often scan passages I'm studying to see where the RcV's footnotes are significantly lacking so that I can focus on those areas. Lee's ministry is simply not complete in itself and although I would not lay claim to having received much extra light myself in the places Lee lacks, I do exercise over such passages much more, even for years. It's an important point that these gaps, at the least, clearly require us to go beyond what Lee did. Moreover, we should not just leave this task to his self-appointed successors to accomplish this for us, as if they are our clergy.

The deficiencies of Lee's exegesis aside, however, I've never found Henry's Commentary of much use.

Is this the section you found helpful?

Magistracy is a divine institution; and magistrates are God’s delegates, and therefore the scripture calleth them gods...

To me, Henry's whole argument is to talk around the very point at issue and I've seen him do that before in other contexts. As a consequence, this is one reference work I've never found much use for.

I don't care to really discuss such a critique at length but just to be clear to our visiting brothers and sisters who might be reading this and like me find Henry's Commentary to be far less helpful than the Life Studies, the main point here is that Lee's ministry doesn't actually solve "the common and hard problems found in the Bible" in every case (as is commonly believed in the Local Church) and that reference to the work of others, as well as our own diligent study, is required to be faithful to the Lord in the study of His Holy Word.

I personally find Henry's discussion about "magistracy" unpersuasive, to say the least.

[kisstheson]

Amen, dear brother YP0534. I really appreciate your post. I especially want to thank you for caring for all the visiting brothers and sisters. It is to these visiting ones that this thread has been dedicated.

Yes, this is definitely a rather glaring lacuna in WL’s writings. I have been keeping a list of such lacunae ever since I was led out of the LC, especially in those cases where some other minister of Christ shared in an excellent way on a point overlooked by Lee. I just came across this particular lacuna a few days ago, while investigating the whole mysterious matter of “gods” in John 10:34-35 and Psalm 82:6. What exactly is our dear Lord saying when He states: “I said, ‘You are gods.’”? This begs for proper exposition!

I really did give Lee every benefit of the doubt and I dug into all of his ministry concerning the Gospel of John and the Psalms, starting with the Recovery Version footnotes. As you said, this lack on Lee’s part has turned into a blessing, as it has forced me to dig into God’s word for myself. For once, I had to resolve one of the “common and hard problems in the Bible” through my own diligent labor. I see now that WL’s ministry, and the continuance of his ministry through the BB’s, really can turn the brothers and sisters in the LC into “lazy laity”, if they just sit there and absorb “the riches” without any discernment and labor on their own.

Concerning brother Henry and his commentary, I fully understand your position, and to a large extent I share your position. There are three points where Henry’s Commentary deserves some credit: First of all, it really is a chapter-by-chapter, verse-by-verse, study of the Bible. Brother Henry labored over all those hard verses in books like Esther, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, etc. that WL never dealt with in his Life Studies. Secondly, brother Henry always took care of the context of the verses he was discussing. Thirdly, brother Henry, like all Bible expositors, has his moments of occasional brilliance. Having said all that, I must admit that very often I too find myself to be disappointed with Henry. Since his Commentary is available on the web for free, I like to check out what he had to say, but many times I get much more help from the writings of others, including those of Lee.

Regarding the point being discussed, I found Henry’s entry under Psalm 82:6 to be more helpful than his entry under John 10:34-35 in clarifying the word “gods”. Henry’s entry under Psalm 82:6 points to another OT verse where elohim is applied to the rulers of Israel. To give credit where credit is due, however, I admit that the following writings were even more helpful than Henry's Commentary: the footnotes in Darby’s New Translation, the A Concise Dictionary of the Words in the Hebrew Bible at the back of my Strong’s Concordance (elohim is Strong’s Hebrew word number 430), and the entry for elohim in The New Brown-Driver-Briggs-Gesenius Hebrew-English Lexicon. The book that was by far the most helpful of all in covering this matter of ‘gods’, however, is R.B. Girdlestone’s Girdlestone’s Synonyms of the Old Testament. Brother Girdlestone’s article in his book entitled “Secondary Uses of the Name Elohim” is very well done. This article covers Psalm 82 in detail, along with covering all the other OT verses referenced by Henry and Darby and covering our Lord’s words in John 10:34-35. Brother Girdlestone's article is the most detailed coverage of the word “gods” in these verses that I have ever seen. I would humbly ask the readers of this thread to allow me to replace my recommendation for Henry’s Commentary with a strong recommendation for Girdlestone’s book.

[kisstheson]

Dear ones,

This is getting richer and richer all the time! I have found another excellent reference which expounds the word "gods" in John 10:34-35 and Psalm 82:6 in great detail. In the early part of the 20th century, dear brother R.C.H. Lenski wrote a very detailed 12-volume Commentary on the New Testament. Lenski's Commentary is a wonderful combination of exposition of the orginal Greek words and grammar, detailed studies of Biblical terms, habits, and customs, and much spiritual fellowship to encourage believers. All this is presented from a very conservative, Scripture-honoring, point of view. These commentaries are not short, but they make an excellent reference whenever verses are encountered which require further investigation, such as John 10:34-35.

And so, in order to fully understand the word "gods" in John 10:34-35 and Psalm 82:6, I would definitely recommend both brother R.B. Girdlestone’s Girdlestone’s Synonyms of the Old Testament and brother R.C.H. Lenski's The Interpretation of St. John's Gospel (the fourth volume of his 12-volume Commentary on the New Testament). John 10:34-35 and Psalm 82:6 are verses that Witness Lee, for whatever reason, never expounded on. WL passed right over these verses multiple times. How wonderful that our Lord used these other dear brothers to dig into these verses!

[kisstheson]

Dear ones,

I realize that many of the posts on this thread are rather long. This is due to the need for sufficient supporting detail to be provided to back up the claims being made. The supporting detail must be presented in such a way that the facts set forth can easily be verified by anyone who chooses to investigate whether or not “these things are really so”.

To help our visitors who may have gotten lost in all the detail, I feel before the Lord that periodic “summary posts” should be presented, containing a brief overview of the claims made since the last “summary post”. This is the first such “summary post”.

Thus far, three examples have been presented where Witness Lee’s ministry was incomplete and another minister of Christ was used to fill in the gap. The detail related to these three examples exists in the preceding posts. The following is a summarized listing:

1. Several OT Life Studies were found to consist of barely more than a presentation of an outline of points from the Bible text. The messages in these Life Studies are very brief, passing over lots of verses and lots of rich detail. Examples include the Life Studies of Esther, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, and many of the books of the Minor Prophets. In the case of the book of Esther, brother Ian Thomas, a gifted minister of Christ, conducted a very rich, in-depth study of book of Esther in his book If I Perish, I Perish. A spoken message by brother TAS was also found to contain a rich example from the book of Esther of OT typology pointing to Christ and the Church.
   
   
2. Surprisingly, even in a detailed Life Study like the Life Study of Genesis, it was found that WL gave very little attention to Genesis chapter 38, an important chapter in Genesis dealing directly with the lineage which brought forth Jesus Christ. Because he was focusing almost exclusively on Jacob and Joseph, WL largely overlooked Genesis chapter 38, a chapter which focuses on Judah. John Saunders, a dear brother from that assembly in Memphis that has no known name but bears such a fragrance of Christ, spoke a sweet message in 2004 called “Built by the Love of Christ.” The second half of this message details God dealings with Judah in order to bring forth a heart of brotherly love in Judah.
   
   
3. Two very mysterious portions in the Bible, John 10:34-25 and Psalm 82:6, contain the Lord’s speaking: “I said, ‘You are gods.’”. In WL's five books that cover the Gospel of John and the Psalms, these verses are never expounded and the mysterious word “gods” is never explained. Two reference books that do a marvelous job of digging into these verses are brother R.B. Girdlestone’s Girdlestone’s Synonyms of the Old Testament and brother R.C.H. Lenski's The Interpretation of St. John's Gospel (the fourth volume of his 12-volume Commentary on the New Testament).

[kisstheson]

Dear ones,

A few weeks ago I had the privilege and the pleasure of reading through the book Brother Bakht Singh of India: An Account of 20th Century Apostolic Revival written by a co-worker of brother Bakht Singh named T. E. Koshy. Brother Koshy had been appointed by Bakht Singh while he was still alive to write the “official” biography of Bakht Singh’s life. (Those of you in the GLA, and others, may be interested to know that T. E. Koshy lives in Syracuse, NY.)

I had long since excused brothers Nee and Lee for never mentioning Bakht Singh in their speaking, figuring that the Lord’s move through WN and WL in China and Taiwan was a “parallel” move alongside the Lord’s move through Bakht Singh in India and Pakistan. As we all remember from high school geometry, “parallel lines never meet”. I still excuse WN for never mentioning Bakht Singh. It was not until 1941 that Bakht Singh changed his way of working from that of a “revivalist” to that of raising up “local churches after the New Testament model”. With the terrible events of WWII and WN’s imprisonment in 1952, it may very well be that WN never knew of Bakht Singh’s sacrifice and labor in raising up local assemblies all over the Indian subcontinent.

What really shocked me when I read through this biography of Bakht Singh was that all of the senior co-workers sent out from mainland China by WN (i.e. Simon Meek, Faithful Luke, and Stephen Kaung) co-worked with Bakht Singh, except WL. There is a picture in this book of Bakht Singh with Simon Meek and Raymond Golsworthy (a co-worker of TAS) taken in the Philippines sometime in the 1950’s. Bakht Singh specifically mentions spending time with Faithful Luke in Singapore in a 1968 article in his periodical entitled Hebron Messenger. And most of us already know of the 1957 conference at Honor Oak Fellowship Center in London in which TAS, Stephen Kaung, and Bakht Singh all spoke. As a final shocker, there is a 1954 photo taken of Bahkt Singh with “Chinese believers in Formosa (Taiwan)”! Bakht Singh was well aware of the situation in Taiwan for he wrote “About the year 1948, nearly two hundred believers, who had been if fellowship with Brother Watchman Nee, came and settled down in Taiwan, and the Lord began to use them for the salvation of many souls throughout the island.” There is simply no way that WL did not know about Bakht Singh.

Without speculating on motives, I have to present the failure to mention brother Bakht Singh and his planting of local assemblies all over India and Pakistan as another example of the incompleteness of WL’s ministry. I actually remember WL mentioning Billy Graham a few times during the “New Way/God-Ordained Way” years. If Billy Graham’s labors were mentioned, why not the labors of someone who planted local assemblies in some of the most difficult environments on the whole earth?

[kisstheson]

Amongst other places in WL's ministry, I see two books where he really should have included a mention of dear brother Bakht Singh. By not mentioning brother Bakht Singh, WL's presentations of the history of the Lord's recovery work and his reportings concerning the Lord's up-to-date move are both lacking. The two books which should have mentioned Bakht Singh are the 1973 book The History of the Church and the Local Churches and the 1989 book The Present Advance of the Lord's Recovery.

Bakht Singh began a powerful ministry to raise up "local churches after the New Testament model" (his own words) beginning in 1941. Either directly through Bakht Singh or through his co-workers, hundreds of local assemblies were raised up in very difficult circumstances in India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Nepal, some of the Pacific Island nations - and even a few in the United States of America! Along with these new assemblies, Bakht Singh willingly co-labored with many dear gifted ministers of Christ in order to strengthen existing local assemblies. Some of the dear ones he co-labored with were TAS, Simon Meek, Faithful Luke, and Stephen Kaung. Bakht Singh was a skilled Bible expositor. I have read three of his books and they all are very edifying.

He surely deserved at least a brief mention in one of WL's speakings on the history of the Lord's move in the twentieth century.

[kisstheson]

Dear ones,

We have been discussing some of the OT books which WL rushed through and covered in only a very brief way during his Life Study trainings on the OT books. Some of you might not be aware that a “Life Study of Ezekiel” training was never even held. As he was moving through the OT books in an ever-increasing pace, WL stated his feeling that he had covered the book of Ezekiel in sufficient detail during his famous “Ezekiel Conference” held during the summer of 1971. When it came to time to actually compile the OT Life Studies in hard-bound “Green Book” format right around the time WL went to be with the Lord, some serious consideration had to be given to the question of the Life Study of Ezekiel. The editors at LSM realized that the messages spoken during the 1971 conference were rich in details from those chapters which were the focus of the conference, but as a whole these messages were not adequate to be a “Life Study” on their own. Consequently, some of WL’s speaking on the book of Ezekiel from Taiwan in the 1950’s was included to help “beef up” the content.

Even with this extra content, however, the Life Study of Ezekiel still skims over a huge portion of the book of Ezekiel. The Life Study starts out with twelve messages covering Ezekiel chapter one. There are then three messages covering Ezekiel chapters 2 – 32, three messages covering the “recovery” chapters (chapters 33 – 39), and nine messages covering Ezekiel "millennial visions" in chapters 40 – 48.

As one can imagine, a whole LOT of rich detail in the book of Ezekiel never gets any mention in the Life Study. Ezekiel chapters 38 and 39 are covered in a very brief way in only two paragraphs on the last page of message eighteen. Ezekiel chapters 2 – 32 are covered in only three messages, which means that each of these three messages covers, on average, 10 1/3 chapters from the Bible! That leaves room for only a very brief synopsis of these thirty-one chapters of Ezekiel. According to my unofficial survey, this is the briefest treatment of any portion of the OT in all of the Life Studies.

If one wants a true exposition of all of the book of Ezekiel, covering each and every chapter in some detail, the one that has edified me the most is dear brother Arno C. Gaebelein’s book The Prophet Ezekiel: An Analytical Exposition. Brother Gaebelein (1861 – 1945) was very-well known in his lifetime as one of the strongest proponents of millennialism and dispensationalism. He had a lot of influence on both Cyrus Scofield (well known for the The Scofield Study Bible) and Lewis Sperry Chafer (founder and first president of Dallas Theological Seminary).

[kisstheson]

One thing that surprised me greatly when I first read brother Gaebelein’s book The Prophet Ezekiel: An Analytical Exposition is the existence of two very detailed diagrams contained towards the end of the book. The first detailed diagram shows the layout of all the parts of the Millennial Temple, as seen in Ezekiel’s great vision. The second detailed diagram shows the allocation of the Good Land amongst the Messiah and the Twelve Tribes during the Millennium, also seen by Ezekiel. I had previously thought that WL was the first to develop these diagrams, but I was wrong – these diagrams were first printed in brother Gaebelein’s book in 1918 - well before WL's 1971 Ezekiel Conference!

[kisstheson]

Hello dear ones,

If anyone enjoys a "Scripture Challenge", I think I have a good one for you:

In John chapter 3 Nicodemus came to speak with Jesus at night. During the converstation, our Lord spoke some amazing words to Nicodems: "Unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God", "That which is born of the Spirit is spirit", "You must be born again", etc. Nicodemus, of course, did not understand these things and in verse 9 he asks Jesus "How can these things be?" Verse 10 then states "Jesus answered and said to him 'Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not understand these things?'"

Here is the challenge: Upon what basis was Nicodemus supposed to understand the things related to the new birth? In other words, in what portion(s) of the Old Testament writings are "these things" (i.e. being born again, seeing/entering the Kingdom of God, being born of the Spirit, etc.) spoken about?

In keeping with the theme of this thread, you will not find the answer in the Recovery Version footnotes, the Life Study of John, The Fulfillment of the Tabernacle and the Offerings in the Writings of John, or the Crystallization-Study of the Gospel of John. This is another example of a lack, a lacuna, in Witness Lee's speaking concerning the Gospel of John. It took the writings of another brother besides WL to answer this question for me. I didn't know the answer and I wasn't even looking for the answer - it took me by surprise while I was reading the writings of another gifted minister of Christ!

I will share the answer that I came across in a few days (in order to give everyone who wants to a chance to dig into the Word for themselves).

[cityonahill]

W. Hall Harris wrote an exegesis on this passage that was very good...

I'll copy and paste some of it that deals with this question:

3:9 Here we have Nicodemus’ answer. It is clear that at this time he has still not grasped what Jesus is saying.

Note also that this is the last appearance of Nicodemus in the dialogue (!). Having served the purpose of the Evangelist, at this point he “ disappears” from the scene.

3:10 There is irony in Jesus’ question here: “you are the teacher of Israel (a spiritual leader) and don’t know these things?”

This carries the implication (at least) that Nicodemus had enough information at his disposal from the Old Testament Scriptures to have understood Jesus’ statements about the necessity of being born from above by the regenerating work of the Spirit.

When we ask what passages Nicodemus might have known which would have given him insight into Jesus’ words, we could return to Isa 44:3-5 and Ezek 37:9-10. But even more astounding is the passage proposed by Z. C. Hodges as the “seed-bed” for the ideas in Jesus’ dialogue with Nicodemus: Prov 30:4-5.66

“Who has ascended into heaven, and descended [John 3:13]? Who has gathered the wind [John 3:5, 8] in his fists? Who has wrapped the waters [John 3:5] in his garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, or his Son’s name [John 3:15-16]? Surely you know! Every word of God is tested; he is a shield to those who put their trust in him [John 3:15-16].”

3:11 “We speak what we know and we testify about what we have seen…” Note the remarkable similarity of Jesus’ words to the later testimony of the Apostle John himself in 1 John 1:2—”and we have seen and testify and report to you the eternal life which was with the Father and was manifested to us”. It seems to me this is only one example of how thoroughly John’s own thoughts were saturated with the words of Jesus (and also how difficult it is to distinguish the words of Jesus from the words of the Evangelist in the Fourth Gospel!).

very deep passage here indeed...

I also found this bibliography dealing with this passage in John:

Belleville, L. L., “Born of Water and Spirit: John 3:5,” Trinity Journal (1981): 125-41.

Borgen, P., “Some Jewish Exegetical Traditions as Background for Son of Man Sayings in John’s Gospel (Jn 3,13-14 and context),” in L’vangile de Jean: Sources, rdaction, thologie, ed. M. de Jonge (Louvain: University Press, 1977): 243-58.

Guthrie, D., “The Importance of Signs in the Fourth Gospel,” Vox evangelica 5 (1967): 72-83.

Hodges, Z. C., “Problem Passages in the Gospel of John, Part 3: Water and Spirit—John 3:5” Bibliotheca Sacra 135 (1978): 206-20.

Jonge, M. de, “Nicodemus and Jesus: Some Observations on Misunderstanding and Understanding in the Fourth Gospel,” Bulletin of the John Rylands Library 53 (1971): 337-59.

Lindars, B., “Two Parables in John,” New Testament Studies 16 (1969/70): 318-24.

Moody, D., “‘God’s Only Son’: The Translation of John iii 16 in the RSV,” Journal of Bibilcal Liturature 72 (1953): 213-19.

granted, I have not read them, but they are worth checking out...

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by kisstheson

Here is the challenge: Upon what basis was Nicodemus supposed to understand the things related to the new birth? In other words, in what portion(s) of the Old Testament writings are "these things" (i.e. being born again, seeing/entering the Kingdom of God, being born of the Spirit, etc.) spoken about?

Dake in his massive Annotated Reference Bible notes this issue but mostly he just gathers references relating to creating a new heart.

Here's the best one he had:

Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do [them].

But I'd rather see something more directly utilizing the concept of birth, perhaps something from typology?

[kisstheson]

Hello dear cityonahill and YP0534,

I apologize for my delay in responding – Thanksgiving week turned out to be incredibly hectic for me.

Very impressive responses from both of you! Excellent research indeed! Your reference books came up with the same answer that mine did – Ezekiel chapters 36 and 37, with an emphasis on Ezekiel 36:25-27, supported by 37:9-10, 14.

I was reading in brother Gaebelein’s The Prophet Ezekiel: An Analytical Exposition. After discussing the cleansing in 36:25, brother Gaebelein states the following regarding Ezekiel 36:26-27:

“Then follows the promise of the new birth of Israel. ‘A new heart will I also give you, and a new spirit will I put within you.’ The stony heart is to be taken away and they will receive a heart of flesh. Our Lord had this passage in mind when He talked with Nicodemus about the new birth. Nicodemus, the teacher in Israel, was ignorant of the fact that this new birth for Israel is necessary in order to be in that coming kingdom and to receive its blessings. Therefore the Lord said to him, ‘If I have told you earthly things (about Israel and the new birth as the way into the kingdom) and ye believe not, how shall ye believe if I tell you of heavenly things?’ (the heavenly blessings which follow His sacrificial death)."

These two chapters of Ezekiel regarding the new birth and spiritual revival of Israel end with a remarkable picture of the healing of the divisions amongst the Jews and the bringing in of the kingdom (Ezekiel 37:15-28). It is this kind of portrayl of the kingdom that Nicodemus would have been very familiar with. Our Lord was reminding Nicodemus of the actual sequence shown in Ezekiel's writings - the preceding verses in Ezekiel chapters 36 and 37 point out that the new birth of Israel has to come first, before the kingdom blessings can be enjoyed.

[kisstheson]

Dear ones,

As best I can tell, our dear Lord is bothering me to get this thread up and running again.

We had left off with a Scripture challenge related to the conversation between Nicodemus and the Lord Jesus in John chapter three. After Jesus spoke of being born anew, of being born of the water and the Spirit, and of being born of the Spirit, Nicodemus asked “How can these things be?” Jesus responded to Nicodemus: “You are a teacher of Israel , and you do not know these things?”

The question which comes to mind for students of the Bible is this: Upon what basis was Nicodemus supposed to know about the new birth by the Spirit? In other words, where in the Jewish Scriptures was this topic mentioned so that Nicodemus should have known about it? This question is not answered in any of brother Witness Lee’s speakings covering the Gospel of John. Witness Lee simply does not address this question.

It really is a fascinating question! Where is spiritual rebirth - a concept so central to the New Testament - spoken of in the Old Testament? :veryconfused: I found my answer in brother Arno C. Gaebelein’s The Prophet Ezekiel: An Analytical Exposition. Two other dear posters, cityonahill and YP0534, also presented the sources which helped them to answer this question.

I am presenting this case as the sixth example of the incompleteness of Witness Lee’s ministry.

[Toledo]

Dear KTS,

I have greatly enjoyed reading through this thread. Although I have not followed the "Early Lee/Later Lee" thread, I see some distinctions here between what was ministered during my early days in the church and some things many of you brothers keep referring to.

I attended my last "training" meeting in Anaheim in 1999. I have not been back since (although I have continued to meet in a local church, I owe no allegiance to the Anaheim headquarters). My memories of my early days include such things as WL saying (in Akron, Ohio -- summer 1972) "Don't say 'Brother Lee said'. If the Bible says it, say 'the Bible says'." Unfortunately, that changed more and more as time went on.

Also I recall WL telling us that the "riches" he presented were intended to be "groceries" for us to take home and "cook". At least as late as the mid-1980's, it was incumbent upon us to prepare messages to feed the saints. I don't think he intended to leave the lacunae you have pointed out, but he was at the least aware that further work needed to be done. It was only later that the LSM and the BB began to claim that everything has been recovered and we now have a fully expounded bible.

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Toledo

Also I recall WL telling us that the "riches" he presented were intended to be "groceries" for us to take home and "cook". At least as late as the mid-1980's, it was incumbent upon us to prepare messages to feed the saints. I don't think he intended to leave the lacunae you have pointed out, but he was at the least aware that further work needed to be done.

I was newly saved when I heard these words.
This was burned into me.

[kisstheson]

Amen, dear brothers Toledo and YP0534,

I too believe that our dear brother Witness Lee did not intend to leave these lacunae. They simply occurred when he focused intensely on certain portions of the Word, unwittingly leaving nearby portions of the Word relatively untouched. The third lacuna I listed, the one involving the mysterious phrase “I said, you are gods” (John 10:34-35 and Psalm 82:6) is a good example of this. In all his speaking concerning John chapter 10, Witness Lee always expounded a great deal on the opening verses of this chapter. He had a lot to say about “the sheepfold”, “the pasture”, “the door”. “the sheep” and “The Good Shepherd” in verses 10:1 – 21. I think all of us remember the main points in the first half of John chapter 10!

Witness Lee had much less to say about the second half of John chapter 10 (i.e. verses 22 – 42), which meant that the mysterious phrase “I said, you are gods” was never expounded. While covering the Psalms, very little was set about Psalm 82. Most of what Witness Lee said about Psalm 82 focused on verse 7. Again, due to the fact that WL’s focus was elsewhere, the mysterious phrase “I said, you are gods” contained in verse 6 was never expounded.

This case is similar concerning the second lacuna I listed, the one involving Genesis chapter 38. Witness Lee covered the last big section of the book of Genesis (chapters 37 – 50) twice, first from the point of view of Jacob’s experiences, and the second time from the point of view of Joseph’s experiences. By focusing on the experiences of Jacob and Joseph, the smaller gem of Judah’s experiences was overlooked, especially Judah’s experiences mentioned in Genesis chapter 38.

The end result of the investigations of many dear ones is this: these kind of lacunae really do exist in WL's ministry, even in those Life Studies which contain the most detailed exposition. If one takes the attitude that WL’s ministry presents us with a fully recovered and fully expounded Bible, then these lacunae will never be addressed. If, however, one humbly and diligently searches Witness Lee’s ministry with an open spirit towards God, one can not help but notice these lacunae. Interestingly enough, these lacunae should not discourage us; rather, they should actually encourage us! I really like something dear brother YP0534 said in an earlier post – “I always take great delight when I find new lacunae in Lee's writings because this phenomenon powerfully demonstrates that we have more work to do on our own in God's Word!” Amen! Amen!

When the later Old Testament Life Studies are factored in, some really large lacunae come into view! The majority of the later Old Testament Life Studies were very brief and very high-level. So much rich detail was never touched! I remember Witness Lee saying that his speaking was like the opening of the door to a mine. While we could use his speaking to open the mine, all of us had to enter the mine for ourselves in order to dig out further, deeper, riches. Along with the idea of Witness Lee’s speaking being like “groceries” requiring our “cooking” and “preparing”, this idea of a mine certainly conveys the thought that there is a lot more laboring in God’s Word remaining for all of us to do!

I believe we will find that a good bit of the digging out of the riches has been already done by other brothers and sisters outside the LC, requiring us to become more familiar with the ministries of other gifted ministers of Christ beside WL and the BB’s. Besides these other ministries, who knows? Perhaps in some cases no one has yet done the digging out and if we remain humble and diligent, we ourselves may be the first to lay eyes on some long-hidden gems!!

I love you both in Christ, dear brothers.

[kisstheson]

Hello dear ones,

This may seem like a very minor point, but it is amazing how much difference it makes while reading through a commentary on a book of the Bible. In dear brother Arno G. Gaebelein’s The Prophet Ezekiel: An Exposition, the actual text of the book of Ezekiel is interwoven with Gaebelein’s comments. A portion from Ezekiel will be presented (usually about one-fourth or one-third of a chapter), followed by Gaebelein’s detailed comments. Then, another portion from Ezekiel will be presented, followed by more of Gaebelein’s comments . And so it goes, all throughout the book. By the time I had finished reading Gaebelein’s book, not only had I read through all of Gaebelein’s comments, but, as a very nice bonus, I had also read through all of the book of Ezekiel!

Other dear Bible expositors utilize this pattern. Two that come to mind immediately are H.A. Ironside in his expository commentaries and R.C.H. Lenski in his 12-volume Commentary on the New Testament. Both of these dear brothers precede their comments with the actual Biblical text.

It is hard for me to put into words, but I sense a real safeguard when this pattern is followed. First of all, the actual Scriptures being commented on are never far away. Secondly, I can very easily check everything the author says against the actual Scriptures. Lastly, but perhaps most importantly, the Scriptures are very fresh in my mind when I read the comments. In contrast, many (but definitely not all) of Witness Lee’s Life Study messages begin with a listing of relevant scriptures, but the actual text of the Scriptures is not presented. To counter this lack. the Life Studies obviously need to be read alongside an open Bible. But let’s be honest – how many of us actually read the Life Studies with an open Bible next to us? Slothfulness always seems to win out over diligence! I admit it - I can be lazy!

I have heard from several other brothers and sisters who had experiences similar to mine – they would be reading through the Life Studies and suddenly they would get a very strong impression that they were drifting too far away from the Bible itself. This would cause an acute sense of spiritual uneasiness that would not go away. I am not the only one who experienced this! All of this could be prevented if the Scriptures themselves were interwoven into the Life Study messages. As I said in my opening statement, this may appear to be a very minor point, but it really does make a big difference when reading through a commentary on a book of the Bible.

[kisstheson]

Dear ones,

I have one last point to share related to dear brother Arno C. Gaebelein's The Prophet Ezekiel: An Exposition. Brother Gaebelein picks up a really marvelous definition of the word "grace" in his exposition of Ezekiel. In verses 21-38 of Chapter 36 of Ezekiel, Jehovah God states 18 times "I will" in reference to the inward and outward works He will accomplish for His people.

"I will take you from among the nations, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land. Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean . . . A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you, and cause you to walk in my statues . . . I will be your God. I will also save you from all your uncleannesses; and I will call for the corn and increase it and lay no famine upon you. And I will multiply the fruit of the tree . . . I will cause you to dwell in the cities . . . I will increase them with men like a flock." (excerpts from Ezek. 36, vv. 21-38)

So many sweet and encouraging "I will" promises from God! Gaebelein sees these "I will" statements as words of sovereign grace. In other words, when God comes into our hopeless, desperate, situations and He Himself does the inward and outward work needed to restore us and revive us, that is grace. This is much more meaningful than the definition of grace as "unmerited favor".

I say this so that we can all realize that others outside the Local Church have also seen a higher definition of grace. Not all Christians outside the LC think of grace as simply being "unmerited favor".

I appreciate that a brother like Gaebelein, who obviously was very well acquainted with the Brethren teachings of dispensationalism and millenialism, also received much of the "inner life/deeper life" ministry from the Keswick Convention speakers. Dear ones like Gaebelein, Cyrus Scofield (well known for the The Scofield Study Bible) and Lewis Sperry Chafer (founder and first president of Dallas Theological Seminary) all had this testimony in common: they received deeply the healthy teachings of both the Brethren and the Keswick Convention. In this they were not very different from WN and WL.

[kisstheson]

How ‘bout that? It’s time for another “summary post”!

This post will summarize the second set of three examples in which Witness Lee’s ministry was found to be incomplete and another minister of Christ was used to fill in the gap. The details related to these three examples exist in the preceding posts. The following is a summarized listing:

1. In all of WL’s speaking, not one mention of dear brother Bakht Singh can be found. The absence of any mention of Bakht Singh is especially glaring in WL’s 1973 book The History of the Church and the Local Churches and WL’s 1989 book The Present Advance of the Lord's Recovery. Bakht Singh surely deserved some mention from WL. Bakht Singh began a powerful ministry to raise up "local churches after the New Testament model" (his own words) beginning in 1941. Either directly through Bakht Singh or through his co-workers, hundreds of local assemblies were raised up in very difficult circumstances in India, Pakistan, Sri Lanka, Nepal, and some of the Pacific Island nations. Bakht Singh also co-labored with many dear gifted ministers of Christ, including TAS, and three co-workers of Watchman Nee: Simon Meek, Faithful Luke, and Stephen Kaung. I highly recommended the “official” biography of Bakht Singh entitled Brother Bakht Singh of India: An Account of 20th Century Apostolic Revival. This biography was written by a co-worker of brother Bakht Singh named T. E. Koshy.
   
   
2. Upon investigation of WL’s The Life Study of Ezekiel, we find out that many chapters in Ezekiel receive very little attention in the Life Study. A whole LOT of rich detail in the book of Ezekiel never gets any mention in the Life Study. Ezekiel chapters 38 and 39 are covered in a very brief way in only two paragraphs on the last page of message eighteen. Ezekiel chapters 2 – 32 (31 chapters of the Bible!) are covered in only three messages, which means that each of these three messages covers, on average, 10 1/3 chapters from the Biblical book of Ezekiel! That leaves room for only a very, very, brief synopsis of these thirty-one chapters from Ezekiel. To remedy this situation, I highly recommend dear brother Arno C. Geabelein’s book The Prophet Ezekiel: An Expostion. This exposition covers all the chapters in Ezekiel in a detailed way.
   
   
3. In Chapter 3 of the Gospel of John, after Jesus spoke of being born anew, of being born of the water and the Spirit, and of being born of the Spirit, Nicodemus asked “How can these things be?” Jesus responded to Nicodemus: “You are a teacher of Israel , and you do not know these things?” The question which comes to mind for students of the Bible is this: Upon what basis was Nicodemus supposed to know about the new birth by the Spirit? In other words, where in the Jewish Scriptures was this topic mentioned so that Nicodemus should have known about it? This question is not answered in any of brother Witness Lee’s speakings covering the Gospel of John. Witness Lee simply did not address this question. I was pleasantly surprised to find this question addressed in Arno C. Geabelein’s book The Prophet Ezekiel: An Exposition. Several other posters also shared the names of other reference books and study Bibles which address this question.