How Much To Throw Out?

[HERn]

After twenty-something years being in The Lord's Recovery (TLR) I think I'm on my way out, but don't know how much to leave behind. TLR helped revive and restore my love of The Lord that I first had at my conversion. It did this by bringing my attention back to Christ and Him alone. I hope my restored love is genuine and not some type of fakery. I will also miss what we call The Lord's Table Meeting (TLTM) where I could express and pour out my love to Him by singing and prayers. For those of you who have left TLR how were you able to continue this type of corporate worship? Also, for those of you who had the same experience of recovering your first love for The Lord do you feel it was genuine and how did you continue to cultivate this after leaving TLR?

I am still just a guest here but was intrigued by your post and felt compelled to answer. I would say to "throw out" whatever it was that drove you out and "keep" whatever it was that you loved--including the focus on Christ Himself and the realization of His Body expressed in His members. That which drove you out is the very thing that, by leaving, you will remove. Try hard to continue fellowship with those who remain behind that love you. Remember that Christ is not limited in any way--that He loves the other parts of His Body as much as the LC (and He DOES love them!), and that you, with prayer, will find another place to worship and grow. It will take time because one thing the LC is right about is that so much of Christianity today has gone to a "lite gospel". However, many of my friends in the "denominations" decry that also. You will just have to pray and visit and go and "taste" until you find what you are looking for. BUT: first step is defining what is making you leave after 20 years. By the very number, you were not unhappy most of the time. Figure out what made you unhappy and shed that.

Just my thoughts...hope they help.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I am still just a guest here but was intrigued by your post and felt compelled to answer. I would say to "throw out" whatever it was that drove you out and "keep" whatever it was that you loved--including the focus on Christ Himself and the realization of His Body expressed in His members. That which drove you out is the very thing that, by leaving, you will remove. .

This is a wise and healthy suggestion.

Remember that the LC's are steeped in leaven. The Lord instructed the disciples to "beware of the leaven of the Pharisees." We surely must reiterate that word, "beware of the leaven of Lee and the Blendeds."

Please be aware that many former members could not discern the wheat from the chaff and have shipwrecked their faith. In an effort to purge themselves of all LC teachings, they thrust off both the good and the worthless.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by HERn

After twenty-something years being in The Lord's Recovery (TLR) I think I'm on my way out, but don't know how much to leave behind. TLR helped revive and restore my love of The Lord that I first had at my conversion. It did this by bringing my attention back to Christ and Him alone. I hope my restored love is genuine and not some type of fakery. I will also miss what we call The Lord's Table Meeting (TLTM) where I could express and pour out my love to Him by singing and prayers. For those of you who have left TLR how were you able to continue this type of corporate worship? Also, for those of you who had the same experience of recovering your first love for The Lord do you feel it was genuine and how did you continue to cultivate this after leaving TLR?

HERn,
Thank you and BLESS you for having the courage to come out and post what you have written here. This forum was created for, and has been maintained in large part for, a venue for brothers and sisters like yourself to have a place for fellowship, advise and prayer requests. Despite what it may seem at first appearance, this place is much more than just a place where former Local Church members come to bash Witness Lee and the Local Church movement (of course, lot's of that goes on here....but what can I say....I just rent the meeting hall...it's open to anybody who want's to stay on topic )

I was in the Local Church for about 20 years as well. Much of it right there in the hotbed of Orange County California back in the 1970s and early 1980s. My first "brother's houses" were lead by several of what are now known as "Blended Brothers" and Full Time Co-workers. I would not trade any of those years for anything. God is sovereign and God is GOOD. Maybe some of what we experienced was indeed "fakery" (God knows) but God does not look at the outward, but at the inner man - at our hearts.

As far as the Lord's Table is concerned, If you seek a place that holds a weekly Table I assure you the Lord will lead you to such a place. It may not be in the same format as you are used to in TLR, but the bread and the wine will be there, and it will still signify what our Lord declared it to be “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”.

As far as coming out and finding a good place to worship, you are very much ahead of the game from some of us who left so many years ago. We were on our own, with nobody to talk to or commiserate with. Please...take advantage of us! You don't have to make some of the mistakes that many of us did when we left.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Remember that Christ is not limited in any way--that He loves the other parts of His Body as much as the LC (and He DOES love them!), and that you, with prayer, will find another place to worship and grow.

AMEN!

It will take time because one thing the LC is right about is that so much of Christianity today has gone to a "lite gospel".

Amen to this too. HOWEVER, please keep in mind that a "lite gospel" is better - infinitely better - than a false gospel.

[zeek]

HERn Only you can answer for yourself what to throw out and what to keep. Those choices will be based on your own values.

Since you love Jesus, you may find that you are able to see him afresh as if with new eyes. I was reading the book of Matthew today and I noticed that Jesus said "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." Did Witness Lee or his followers teach you that? Because it seems like it was important to Jesus. He summarized the Hebrew scriptures by asking us to do one simple thing: treat others as we would have them treat us.

Jesus went further"... Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. ..."

Later in the same book Jesus expanded on the same principle when he said " Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Jesus was saying that the entire Law is at its core a commandment to love God and to love other people. He didn't limit it to loving church people either, I notice. He said love was the true intent of the entire Old Testament and it was to be fulfilled in the New. We must love in order to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Now I recall many things that Witness Lee and his followers taught me but I don't recall that they taught me how important loving people was to Jesus. Maybe it was just too simple for them. It's not a mysterious high peak teaching that had to recovered to shock the Christian world. But, if you learned anything about how to love others while you were in the church, I would hang on to and practice that. Because, based on what he said, it seems like Jesus would appreciate it if you did.

[awareness]

If you found God keep that. Then human institutions don't matter; especially personality cult leaders.

[aron]

Originally Posted by zeek

HERn Only you can answer for yourself what to throw out and what to keep. Those choices will be based on your own values.

Since you love Jesus, you may find that you are able to see him afresh as if with new eyes. I was reading the book of Matthew today and I noticed that Jesus said "Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets." Did Witness Lee or his followers teach you that? Because it seems like it was important to Jesus. He summarized the Hebrew scriptures by asking us to do one simple thing: treat others as we would have them treat us.

Jesus went further"... Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you ..."

Later in the same book Jesus expanded on the same principle when he said "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Jesus was saying that the entire Law is at its core a commandment to love God and to love other people. He didn't limit it to loving church people either, I notice. He said love was the true intent of the entire Old Testament and it was to be fulfilled in the New. We must love in order to enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Now I recall many things that Witness Lee and his followers taught me but I don't recall that they taught me how important loving people was to Jesus....

I liked this point: zeek showed us the values that he used to extract a coherent message, and mission, from the text of the Jesus story. Love your neighbor. Treat others as you'd be treated. Etc. Nothing about "building the Body" etc. Just take care of the person next to you, arguably put there by God Himself.

I'd like to share my experience of leaving, not that my many failures should be a model for anyone. But it might be somewhat of interest. I was as rabid, as hard-core for "the church" as I could possibly be. Anything inside, I thought, was purified by "the ground", anything outside was hopelessly corrupted "Babylon". The ministry of a certain brother from Chefoo China I wasn't as rabid about, because I felt that his language was somewhat contrived, and stilted, and I was put off by his antagonism toward anyone who didn't agree with him over obscure points of the trinity (see e.g. his contretemps with the Bible Answer Man - a seemingly lifeless quarrel). I also didn't like the near-idolization of Witness Lee by the rank-and-file and the emerging "blended brothers", nor how the poor, the sick and weak were ignored or even rejected in the rush to get supposedly good building materials. But I'd seen a vision of "the church" and I was all in.

So imagine my surprise when one day, out of the blue, the Holy Spirit told me to leave. Just pack it up and go. I was truly shocked. Leave here? After tearfully pledging obedience to the cause, and never to return to Babylon again? After all the trainings, conferences, meetings, trips and blending hospitalities? Well, I got clear marching orders, and I recognized the voice of my Shepherd, so I went, but I went out with a big chip on my shoulder. I went into the denominations with the supposed truths of the Recovery in my hands; I went in there and proselytized, and passed out LSM literature. I tried to show them what they were missing.

So here's what happened. First, I realized that God loves these poor slobs just as much as the "saints" in the "local churches". You look in their eyes and you realize that God loves them. Eventually I began to preach less and listen more. I realized that the Father wants to meet these people, even if it's not "on the ground of oneness".... shock of shocks! God meets people where they are!! That one completely blew me away.

Remember that song, "Just as I am, without one plea, but that Thy blood was shed for me"? Well if the Spirit of Jesus came to me just as I am, shouldn't I also come to others just as they are? Or, should I set up some requirements before presenting them with the truth of God's saving love? We'd been told not to cast our pearls before swine, but at the same time if God was willing to humble Himself in the person of Jesus Christ to reach lepers, sinners, and Gentile dogs, shouldn't I also try to minister on whatever ground I found myself? I quit looking for "the right church" and began to minister. The right person is the one next to you. The right group is wherever you find yourself. Stop being a snob. Stop judging.

Second, as I slooowly began to open myself up to other voices I began to see an entirely different Bible. The idea of "one oracle per age" is absolute nonsense. Of course there is a lot of crap out there. But we'd been told that Nee read everything worth reading, and filtered it, and gave us the pure kernel of truth. And then he and Lee gave us nothing but the pure word thenceforth: the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. Again, that's self-serving nonsense. Nee was a bright guy, and a diligent reader, but he was just like us. He put his pants on one leg at a time, and his voice needs to be balanced with other voices. Nee's 1950s writings on relations vis-a-vis the emerging Communist government in China show us that the "later Nee" was as whacked out as the later Lee.

Everyone needs to be adjusted, and balanced. And that especially goes for the people who claim that they need no balancing or adjustment, that through some process of rugged transformation they've entered the rarefied air of pure Spirit, and now only God can adjust them...cult alert...cult alert! Ooogah... ooogah!

I kept a lot, and use it today, but now I treat them as I would any of the Christian faith. Though I occasionally get vitriolic against Lee (that he lorded it over the flock, divided the flock for his own personal empire, and repressed parts of the Bible which didn't fit his vision), I still use what I heard when I was there. I still quote their footnotes, outlines and maxims when I minister to people, and don't have a problem doing that. True, Nee & Lee ministered inside an unbalanced system that wrongly elevated them, but we can still use what we learned and experienced. God is a businessman and wants a return on his investment, and so am I -- I invested part of my life in the Local Church system and now I want a return on my investment. Lee did the same, using Wescott, Vincent, Alford and others. Why can't I also with Lee?

We had a false "all or nothing" paradigm for Lee's ministry, that temporarily trapped and paralyzed us. I'm here to testify that you can leave that group, and you can still use what you learned there, and minister to your neighbor. Notice Jesus saying, "I will build my church": if you take care of your neighbor by testifying to them of Jesus Christ, God will "consummate the New Jerusalem" and all that. Just take care of your neighbor. They are already on the proper ground, waiting for you to come and help them.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Remember that the LC's are steeped in leaven. The Lord instructed the disciples to "beware of the leaven of the Pharisees." We surely must reiterate that word, "beware of the leaven of Lee and the Blendeds."

That has been my sense also. There is leaven, but we must be careful not to generalize.
As it is whenever the Holy Word for Morning Revival is read, the ministry text is received as canonized scripture and may not double check and verify what scripture says in respect to the ministry text. As a result the leaven is accepted without question.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

That has been my sense also. There is leaven, but we must be careful not to generalize.
As it is whenever the Holy Word for Morning Revival is read, the ministry text is received as canonized scripture and may not double check and verify what scripture says in respect to the ministry text. As a result the leaven is accepted without question.

I have many close friends and family who have left the Recovery, yet still feel that Lee and Nee are mostly worth reading, and most of what we were taught is worth hanging on to. None of them has a clue what really happened when Ingalls and others were quarantined, and they basically don't want to know either.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I have many close friends and family who have left the Recovery, yet still feel that Lee and Nee are mostly worth reading, and most of what we were taught is worth hanging on to. None of them has a clue what really happened when Ingalls and others were quarantined, and they basically don't want to know either.

Of course. Many probably prefer early Lee over later Lee. Although later Lee can come across as sectarian.

Originally Posted by Ohio

This is a wise and healthy suggestion. Remember that the LC's are steeped in leaven. The Lord instructed the disciples to "beware of the leaven of the Pharisees." We surely must reiterate that word, "beware of the leaven of Lee and the Blendeds."

Please suggest where I could fellowship without any leaven? Certainly not with ambitious and divisive brothers.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Please suggest where I could fellowship without any leaven? Certainly not with ambitious and divisive brothers.

The problem with the LC is that they divide from others because of the corruption and degradation. Then, when you point out their corruption and degradation they effectively shrug, "Hey, nobody's perfect." They don't realize that was the exact same argument used against Martin Luther and John Wesley. "So what if we have faults. We [RCC, Anglicans] are the Body of Christ and the house of God."

When WN was in "dead religion" he wanted freedom, to follow his conscience and the truths as he saw them. But as soon as he got a following he denied others those same freedoms. Now, the buzz word in the LC is "restrictions". But WN and WL weren't restricted, were they? When WL wanted to create a for-profit motorhome company, and to put his son in charge, no problem. He called special meetings and told church members about the new investment opportunities. But if anyone has had issues with these kinds of conflicts of interest, then they've been called ambitious and divisive, etc etc.

Most people can see through all this, pretty quickly. Only naïve teenagers on college campus, who are barely more than children, and those whose perceptions have been dulled by incessant repetitive chanting will think everything's okay. The rest realize that something's very off but they got "wrecked and ruined" and now can't get out. Do you remember those words? "I got wrecked" for the Lord's recovery. Common sense, to follow one's conscience and inner voice, all got ship-wrecked.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Please suggest where I could fellowship without any leaven? Certainly not with ambitious and divisive brothers.

What area are you located in?

[UntoHim]

No need to reveal what location you are in unregistered, unless you want to.
-

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Please suggest where I could fellowship without any leaven? Certainly not with ambitious and divisive brothers.

I’m sure leaven can be found almost everywhere among the teachers of Christ’s sheep. To me the amazing thing about leaven is its asymmetry between size and effect. We are told that even a small amount of leaven can have a profound effect upon the whole lump (church). For example, the leavenous teaching that Witness Lee is something more than a member of the Body of Christ has created a whole system of error known as The Lord’s Recovery sponsored by Living Stream Ministry supported by the giving of the members in the Local Churches. Given the fallen nature of man the Lord’s Recovery provides a place for ambitious and divisive brothers to hide under the covering of being absolute for the ministry of Witness Lee. I think it’s safer to be absolute for Christ alone. I’m throwing out the teaching that Witness Lee was more than just a member of the body of Christ.

[Robert]

"We are told that even a small amount of leaven can have a profound effect upon the whole lump (church). "

To be correct, i do not thing lump is church. Church are people.
Lump is good food. This is Word of God. It corresponds with all verses. May be this is not big deal, but Jesus said about deliberately falsifying a Word for their own gain.
Our food, lump should be free of any additional element of the man. Pharisee's wrk was to teach people. So conclusion is clear.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

first step is defining what is making you leave after 20 years. By the very number, you were not unhappy most of the time. Figure out what made you unhappy and shed that.

I think that everyone has a unique journey. So mine is mine and yours is yours. But I will share something of mine, because I trust that it overlaps somewhat with those of others.

For example, brother Ohio and I have shared that we both formerly engaged in a kind of "primal scream therapy" in the bars, in the concert halls, in the keg parties. We'd engage in some kind of berserk Bacchanalia, an orgy of shouting and arm-waving, throw a few beer bottles and then go home and sleep it off. Then wake up, fumble around for the cigarettes and keep going. Why? Because it was fun.

Then by God's mercy I got sober and soon found myself in the second row (first being the "blended brothers" of Lee) of a meeting, shouting and waving my arms. Fun! Really, I liked it. I liked to have a kind of sober "primal scream therapy" session holding a bible or hymnal. So I did that for a number of years. Like I said elsewhere, there were a lot of things that didn't square with either the word or my conscience, but it was more fun than being a drunkard.

Then one day the Holy Spirit said, "Go, for I send you far away, to the Gentiles!" (Acts 22:21) It certainly was a challenge, and without the constant reinforcement of the movement (meetings 5 days a week, plus constant "fellowship" socially) my faith got battered, occasionally.

But guess what? I can still have fun. Guess why I write on this forum? To convince the world that my ideas are correct? Not really; I just like to write. I like having people like OBW and awareness comment on my ideas. Knock 'em about, see if there's anything there. So that's what I kept. I kept the focus really appreciating each day, each moment. Remember that healed Samaritan that fell on his face, before Jesus, praising God for His mercy? (Luke 17). Surely God deserves our praise and thanks! I don't want to quit that. So I keep going, because it's more fun for me to continue than to quit.

--What I left behind was the adoration and elevation of a man's ministry (I have my favorites, I admit - Eusebius and Origen being a couple examples - but they departed the earth long ago and I don't anticipate joining a cult of personality based on either one).

--What I left behind was letting someone else think for me. I now realize that I am responsible for my own thoughts. It is time for me to be a big boy, to grow up and take responsibility for my own ideas. They are mine; I own them.

--What I left behind was the arrogance of thinking that I knew the Bible better than others, just because I could wave a couple verses around. That is like the 3rd grader sneering at the 1st grader. Pretty dumb.

--What I left behind is the idea that an organization can replace the Holy Spirit.

--What I left behind was the "us" and "them" mentality that so easily pervades mankind, identifies us as strangers from one another, and sets us on antagonistic courses. We are all here together. We are all sinners. Jesus can save us all. Jesus left the 99 and found the lost sheep. Why should we so easily dismiss one another? Can't we at least acknowledge, respect one another? If anyone was qualified to condemn, and ignore, and reject, it was Jesus. But He was moved with compassion, and he stretched out His hand and healed.

--What I left behind is the theology of the museums. Like glass cases to house the mummified animals, like dioramas in the Museum of Natural History, beautiful and leafy, with painted clouds... all fake. Instead I try to let the Word guide me deeper into the reality. Jesus, when He argued with the scribes, continually said, "Have you not read the scriptures?" (e.g. Matt 19:4) and "do you not yet understand the scriptures?" (e.g. Mark 12:24). We have a very shallow and fragmentary awareness of the scriptures. If we think we have created some "high peak" theology we will maul the scriptures just like Nee & Lee did. Lee went through the scriptures like a bulldozer driving through a flower garden. Not a pretty sight.

For all the exasperation I feel at people like awareness and zeek at their seemingly obstinate refusal to believe anything, I would much rather have a conversation with them any day, than a zombie from the LSM or the LDS or the JWs or 7th Day Adventists. I find it literally impossible to talk to such people. You can say, "The sky is blue", to them, and you can see their eyes roll back as they search their cranial circuits for the programmed response.

Theology is good, and it's necessary, but it should never become a cage to imprison us and derail our journey. Anyway, as Unregistered said, Find out what makes you happy and keep doing that. Whatever makes you unhappy, drop it.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

For all the exasperation I feel at people like awareness and zeek at their seemingly obstinate refusal to believe anything,

I can't speak for Zeek (actually I can but won't - he exasperates me as well - he's an equal opportunity exasperater) but it's not a matter of refusing to believe, it's just that I can't prove anything with certitude. Every thread I pull, as I'm going along, when I look up, I find myself in the land of uncertainty.

Sort of like what happened to us on the 15:45 thread.

There's lots in the Bible, and about the Bible, that's like that. I love the book but lots of it can't be pinned down. For example, before the creation of the sun, that a day is based upon, how long was a day in the beginning of Genesis? I couldn't have been 24 hours. There were no hours then. We don't and can't know. So what do we do? We just proclaim we know. And Bible literalist's proclaim it to be 24 hours, like it is today. But I'm not a Bible literalist. I had enough of that. It's a method that has failed me too many times. And from what I've read, down thru history, has failed many times before.

But I'm still in the Bible every day. I'm a Bible addict. And it's proven to be self-destructive, at times, like addictions usually are (Robin Williams ). I'm not quite the Bible addict that Professor Bart Ehrman is. (Went to same Theology Seminary as Kangas - totally different conclusion - he's obsessed with getting at the autograph copies, the actual words of God. A fool's errand, methinks, perhaps.

And I love learning about all this stuff. I've really enjoyed ICA's presentations on the EO. I found, for example, that even tho I wasn't raised a Catholic, and was even raise to believe it was/is the whore of Babylon, I still thought Western Christianity was better than Eastern Christianity.

Now I find myself in the land of uncertainty again, concerning the matter. Thanks ICA.

I don't want to leave y'all with the wrong impression. Yes, I threw it all out, even God. Well not all. In the LC I had developed a habit, of always carrying on an inner conversation with God. And I couldn't break the habit (addicted to God too, I suppose, or at least talking to Him).

Even that led to trouble. Eventually I got tired of the dialogue. Of only a dialogue. Of God not talking back. So I went around for quite awhile telling people that God is deaf, dumb, and mute.

Talk about what to throw out. I was totally bonkers (unlike now .. ha ha). I was even into throwing God under the bus.

But, to make an OBW style, already long story short, eventually God came to me. And changed everything. That's another story.

I just had an eye operation, am still groggy, with a patch on one eye. Hope y'all can make sense of this.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by awareness

There's lots in the Bible, and about the Bible, that's like that. I love the book but lots of it can't be pinned down. For example, before the creation of the sun, that a day is based upon, how long was a day in the beginning of Genesis? I couldn't have been 24 hours. There were no hours then. We don't and can't know. So what do we do? We just proclaim we know. And Bible literalist's proclaim it to be 24 hours, like it is today. But I'm not a Bible literalist. I had enough of that. It's a method that has failed me too many times. And from what I've read, down thru history, has failed many times before.

But I'm still in the Bible every day. I'm a Bible addict. And it's proven to be self-destructive, at times, like addictions usually are (Robin Williams ). I'm not quite the Bible addict that Professor Bart Ehrman is. (Went to same Theology Seminary as Kangas - totally different conclusion - he's obsessed with getting at the autograph copies, the actual words of God. A fool's errand, methinks, perhaps.

I just had an eye operation, am still groggy, with a patch on one eye. Hope y'all can make sense of this.

Hi awareness. Don't know if you're a reader, but this book had some good chapters in it. The Galileo Connection [Paperback],
Charles E. Hummel (Author)

[HERn]

Well I've visited Baptist, E-free, family, and community churches and have not been hit by a car, lightening or depression, and I can still pray and enjoy The Lord. I can also report that I remained simple and did not bring up any of the high peak truths...although I did enjoy fellowshipping with others re: the life, death and resurrection of our wonderful Lord Jesus Christ!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by HERn

Hi awareness. Don't know if you're a reader, but this book had some good chapters in it. The Galileo Connection [Paperback],
Charles E. Hummel (Author)

HERn,

I am a reader. Thanks for the tip. The book strikes me as a Francis Schaeffer type book. Am I right?

[InChristAlone]

HERn, thank you for your post. Could you please share your experience? What made you come up with the idea to leave the Local Church?

As for your question, "How much to throw out?" Read the Gospels and you will get the answer. Christ's message is never lite.

May the Lord bless you.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

As for your question, "How much to throw out?" Read the Gospels and you will get the answer. Christ's message is never lite.

May the Lord bless you.

Yes bless you.

And don't throw out what Zeek presented in post #5.

Hold to love ... that is what Jesus clearly prescribed.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

HERn, thank you for your post. Could you please share your experience? What made you come up with the idea to leave the Local Church?

As for your question, "How much to throw out?" Read the Gospels and you will get the answer. Christ's message is never lite.

May the Lord bless you.

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

HERn, thank you for your post. Could you please share your experience? What made you come up with the idea to leave the Local Church?

As for your question, "How much to throw out?" Read the Gospels and you will get the answer. Christ's message is never lite.

May the Lord bless you.

Why am I on my way out? Two words; cognitive dissonance.

To me the local churches are like a large extended family living in a large house where all but the infants are aware that a "crazy aunt" lives in the attic, but no one is willing to acknowledge or discuss the "crazy aunt". The "crazy aunt" is not a real person, but a nagging feeling of not being able to discuss the questionable teachings within Nee's and Lee's otherwise healthy ministry, or the shame of the alleged Daystar business investment debacle, or the alleged immorality of a past manager of the ministry, or the rude treatment of the saints by certain brothers using deputy authority. Because (in my opinion) the living of the brothers and the practices of the ministry were not congruent (to me) with the teaching of the bible (as I understand it) I found myself spending an enormous amount of mental and emotional energy trying to manage this cognitive dissonance. I finally gave up.

I get the feeling from some of the brothers that it is best to avoid negative things like those mentioned above because it does no good to know, understand or discuss them. But this does not agree with how I manage the more intimate aspects of my life. For example, if my spouse was being unfaithful I suppose you could say I would suffer less and be happier not knowing of his/her unfaithfulness. But, what about STDs to which I might be exposed? And, if s/he is unfaithful in one area what could s/he be doing in other areas like children, savings, retirement and our plans for the future? So, in the intimate areas of life I really do need to know about negative things in order to protect myself, family and future. I believe my church life and those that I allow to be spiritual leaders over me are also intimate areas of life where I need to be aware of negative things and not feel like I need to remain ignorant. My legitimate need to know and then feeling I'm being negative and divisive for asking or discussing these things with saints is another area of cognitive dissonance that bothers me. We are warned not to read the negative comments because it could poison or deceive us, but I have an intuition that I think I can trust or at least to which I should listen. Having lived with my spouse for a number of years I have an intuition that I can trust him/her. If someone tells me some negative things about him/her or points me to a source of information then I probably need to hear or read it. If when I try to talk to him/her about it and I'm given the impression that I'm being negative or divisive in my marriage, that to me is a huge red flag (and another area of cognitive dissonance). I think I have read that prolonged cognitive dissonance can lead to mental illness. If none of this is your experience, then please ignore all I have written, for I could be deceived.

[aron]

Originally Posted by HERn

I think I have read that prolonged cognitive dissonance can lead to mental illness. If none of this is your experience, then please ignore all I have written, for I could be deceived.

My experience of cognitive dissonance within the Lord's Recovery/Local Church movement, a subject touched upon often in these threads, was highlighted in the fact that members were allowed and even encouraged to criticize "Christianity", meaning all those outside the group, but not permitted to be "negative" or "questioning" regarding anything within the group itself.

Second, group leadership could excoriate rank-and-file members for faults and failures, and even drag up imaginary ones, and do it quite publicly (which I witnessed in trainings and conferences), to show who was situated where in the leadership & social pecking order. But any return questioning of the upper tiers by lower members would immediately be branded as "leprosy" and "rebellion". Criticizing higher-ups was simply not tolerated in any way.

So you got this weird combination of outspokenness and silence, depending on where the attention was focused. To me it is a classic example of cognitive dissonance, and it reminds me nothing so much as the slave in the parable in Matthew 18:23-35, who was hyper aware of the slights of others, and yet wanted his own to be ignored.

When an individual behaves this way, he is probably mentally unbalanced; when a group is persuaded to take this as its preferred social arrangement, what do we call it? Socially unbalanced? Certainly it seems to be cognitive dissonance on a larger scale. Members have to adopt this repressed and unbalanced thinking as their own, in order to flourish within the social structures of the group.

Of course it is done widely among "fallen humankind"; we demonize other races, groups and cultures whom we oppose. Those who are alien are considered as inferior. Politics feeds on this distortion of reality to highlight the opponent's faults while masking one's own. And families maintain cohesion, at least somewhat, by drawing borders, and making "us" and "them" judgments, which of course are biased.

In Witness Lee's church, we presumed ourselves beyond all of that. Fallen humankind's social arrangements never touched us! So we never questioned, and never considered, even when things got weirder and weirder, as gaps between individual perception and social consensus widened themselves.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

Of course it is done widely among "fallen humankind"; we demonize other races, groups and cultures whom we oppose. Those who are alien are considered as inferior.

This is pure tribalism, like even the monkeys and great apes, that also have an alpha-male leader.

Paul, or a follower of Paul, says, in Colossians, we put off the old man. Well not entirely. Our tribalism is still hanging around, in Lee's local church movement, with Lee as the alpha-male, condemning all other tribes.

So what's the new man:

"Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all ... bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
And above all these things put on charity..."

But Lee's tribe never reached the new man.

Lees' group is like the tribe of Navajo native Americans. Who called their tribe "The Real People." And all other tribes were not real people. Same thing ; we're it, you're not. Tribalism, pure and simple, is the local church system. Old man stuff - not of regeneration at all ... purely a tribal system of man/monkey ... monkey holiness ... monkey shines ... and monkey tribalism ... that's Lee, and Nee's system: of the old man, and animal nature. Not "Christ is all, and in all." (Col 3:9-13)

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by aron

My experience of cognitive dissonance within the Lord's Recovery/Local Church movement, a subject touched upon often in these threads, was highlighted in the fact that members were allowed and even encouraged to criticize "Christianity", meaning all those outside the group, but not permitted to be "negative" or "questioning" regarding anything within the group itself.

Hi Aron,
Long time I don't drop in... thought I'd come by and see how everyone is doing. I see there are a couple of newbies. How very COOL! JESUS IS SOOO GOOD ! Y'ALL are doing a GREAT SERVICE unto the Lord. I hope my time here will be counted worthy by our Awesome God too.

So... yeah.. as much as the LR/LC movement insists on denying they are not religious they are just as bad as the Mormons, JW and of course the Roman C church...probably worst! I do want to add something here though. The LC is no different than any other club, organization, political or religious. No member of a 'church' is allowed to criticize the 'pastor'. If they do, they are 'quarantined', 'suspended' or excommunicated.

Criticizing higher-ups was simply not tolerated in any way.

Again, this is true in almost every 'church' or club where there is a board of directors.

Members have to adopt this repressed and unbalanced thinking as their own, in order to flourish within the social structures of the group.

And there in lies the problem ! Most 'Christians' have forgotten or have no Spirit revelation that we are members of the BODY of Jesus Christ. He is our Head. HE is our LEADER. HE is our Pastor... our SHEPHERD. The LORD is MY Shepherd. I shall not lack. Remember?

But churchers have subjected themselves to an earthly 'pastor'. And if the 'pastor' says so. Then it be because 'he hears from God'. For years we heard no one had the revelation from God like Witness Lee..and to a lesser or equal extent, Watchman Nee.

Well... guess what? The Mormons feel the same way about Joseph Smith. And most churchers feel the same way about their 'pastor'. - My my! Pastor said this. And pastor said that.' OH...and pastor is now a 'doctor'. He graduated with honors at Bible college.

The FTT is the LC's version of bible college.

Of course it is done widely among "fallen humankind"; we demonize other races, groups and cultures whom we oppose. Those who are alien are considered as inferior. Politics feeds on this distortion of reality to highlight the opponent's faults while masking one's own. And families maintain cohesion, at least somewhat, by drawing borders, and making "us" and "them" judgments, which of course are biased.

Well said. And May God have Mercy on us all!

In Witness Lee's church, we presumed ourselves beyond all of that. Fallen humankind's social arrangements never touched us! So we never questioned, and never considered, even when things got weirder and weirder, as gaps between individual perception and social consensus widened themselves.

Yeah... well... Lee and cohorts attempted to have The 'LIFE GIVING SPIRIT' got sucked right out of us! But God would not have it ! He knows HIS Own! He calls them by Name. His sheep follow THE Shepherd Jesus by His Spirit in them. Jesus truly came to set the captives FREE! And that would be us! Praise His Holy and Beautiful Name.

Love YA!
Carol

[Cal]

Originally Posted by HERn

Why am I on my way out? Two words; cognitive dissonance.

HERn, I think your post is spot on, as is your analogy of the "crazy aunt in the attic." Any system that is so fragile that it cannot stand up to reasonable scrutiny isn't worth investing your future in. Any church is going to be imperfect. But any church that depends on everyone playing dumb is doomed.

[InChristAlone]

HERn, thanks. Your story reminds me of my experience. When I found this forum and started reading about WL, I had this verse as a conclusion: "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit." Then I started to explore WL's doctrines and came to the conclusion that Witness Lee's message and Christ's message are not the same. Christ says, "But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well." And: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength... Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”

WL's message is different: "But study first my doctrines and attend the Local Church meetings and the kingdom of God will be given to you as well. There is no commandment greater than this.” WL never said these words, but this maxim became the model of spiritual life of his followers.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by InChristAlone

HERn, thanks. Your story reminds me of my experience. When I found this forum and started reading about WL, I had this verse as a conclusion: "A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit." Then I started to explore WL's doctrines and came to the conclusion that Witness Lee's message and Christ's message are not the same. Christ says, "But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well." And: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength... Love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no commandment greater than these.”

WL's message is different: "But study first my doctrines and attend the Local Church meetings and the kingdom of God will be given to you as well. There is no commandment greater than this.” WL never said these words, but this maxim became the model of spiritual life of his followers.

And when you step back, and stop to think about it, surely the local church life was not what Jesus pictured for the life of his followers. Just the constant obsessive calling on the Lord, if they're still doing that, can't be imagined as what Jesus expected of his disciples and followers. It's clownish.

I remember it. I look back now and wonder how I could get caught up in something so clownish; I wore a Penguin suit; white shirt, black pants, wingtip shoes, polished, skinny tie and all - (monkey holiness) - so clownish. No wonder the outside world thought we were loony. (Who could blame them if they thought: if that's what Jesus does to people, I'm running the other way.) Which, if I had any sense, I should have done.

So I have to admit, the conclusion from it all is, if I were you guys, I wouldn't listen to anything I say. It's been proven. Even UntoHim can't disagree. My judgment can't be trusted. The LC proved that. I'm most certainly out of whack. One more proof is: the more I learn, the more ignorant I feel. What's up with that?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by HERn

Why am I on my way out? Two words; cognitive dissonance.

To me the local churches are like a large extended family living in a large house where all but the infants are aware that a "crazy aunt" lives in the attic, but no one is willing to acknowledge or discuss the "crazy aunt". The "crazy aunt" is not a real person, but a nagging feeling of not being able to discuss the questionable teachings within Nee's and Lee's otherwise healthy ministry, or the shame of the alleged Daystar business investment debacle, or the alleged immorality of a past manager of the ministry, or the rude treatment of the saints by certain brothers using deputy authority. Because (in my opinion) the living of the brothers and the practices of the ministry were not congruent (to me) with the teaching of the bible (as I understand it) I found myself spending an enormous amount of mental and emotional energy trying to manage this cognitive dissonance. I finally gave up.

I get the feeling from some of the brothers that it is best to avoid negative things like those mentioned above because it does no good to know, understand or discuss them. But this does not agree with how I manage the more intimate aspects of my life. For example, if my spouse was being unfaithful I suppose you could say I would suffer less and be happier not knowing of his/her unfaithfulness. But, what about STDs to which I might be exposed? And, if s/he is unfaithful in one area what could s/he be doing in other areas like children, savings, retirement and our plans for the future? So, in the intimate areas of life I really do need to know about negative things in order to protect myself, family and future. I believe my church life and those that I allow to be spiritual leaders over me are also intimate areas of life where I need to be aware of negative things and not feel like I need to remain ignorant. My legitimate need to know and then feeling I'm being negative and divisive for asking or discussing these things with saints is another area of cognitive dissonance that bothers me. We are warned not to read the negative comments because it could poison or deceive us, but I have an intuition that I think I can trust or at least to which I should listen. Having lived with my spouse for a number of years I have an intuition that I can trust him/her. If someone tells me some negative things about him/her or points me to a source of information then I probably need to hear or read it. If when I try to talk to him/her about it and I'm given the impression that I'm being negative or divisive in my marriage, that to me is a huge red flag (and another area of cognitive dissonance). I think I have read that prolonged cognitive dissonance can lead to mental illness. If none of this is your experience, then please ignore all I have written, for I could be deceived.

Thank you HERn.

Your post contains some of the greatest insights concerning the LC strongholds of so-called NEGATIVE speaking.

Worth reading again.

[Lisbon]

There is quite a bit of speaking about keeping the good and discarding the evil. Thru the years how much did we hear about a ton of leaven and a spoon full of fine flour. But that's what we got. We got the ton of leaven and for my part it is difficult to glean the fine flour. Seriously I have strong doubts about the way our campus workers try for months to convince the young that we are right. Is that what we are after. I think the Mormons and many others are doing the same thing. What happened to speaking to those who have a known need. Remember, the Lord came to heal those who were sick. The "healthy" ones could not receive.

Even though I've been here for over 40 years, I'm not that sure when WL clearly left the Bible and went on his own. I well remember in the mid 80's when he started hatcheting the Psalms and the Psalms were not the only Bible he hatcheted. It really reveals how drugged we were when we didn't stand up and scream. The Christian faith is heavily bound in the Bible and our oracle, apostle, MOTA, dictator spent many years discrediting it while he continued to use the words "pure word of God."

Whether he was a wolf in 1949, I don't know. By the late 80's he was. He lost his conscience and without a conscience you are through with the Lord's work. From some who have posted about his last conference, it would seem his conscience was somewhat working but his BBs covered that up as they covered up all the misery of about 25 years. They too are partakers of his deceptions.

After 18 months "out" I attend a Bible church and the gentleman there is a very well taught man of God and speaks from his heart. I cannot remember when I ever heard WL or any of the BBs or elders speak from their heart. WL just spoke what he had figured out and mostly it was not the Bible but him.

Lisbon

[Cal]

I don't think you need to go on a witch hunt for leaven. Begin by learning to just love God, love people, and receive all believers. Learn to not judge beliefs or practices. Then, read. Read all kinds of Christian authors and sources. Be open to God's speaking in everything. Read, read, read. Read light books on Christian living, read some deep theology, read devotionals, especially read the Bible (with no footnotes). Visit a lot of different churches. Listen to the messages with an open mind. Be humble and appreciative of the many ways God works. Be open to everything but make nothing the final word (obviously the Bible is, but even it must be interpreted).

After some time, you will begin to notice a common thread. The thread will be about loving God, loving people, obeying his Word, being holy, serving others and witnessing for Him. It will be a pure, simple and life-sized thread. Focus on that thread, make it your life path.

You will also notice there will be very little about "building the Church." This is because we can't build the Church, only Christ can. The best we can do is help build up one another, which is the overflow of a life in the thread.

Certain things will fall away, some you will throw away. Some will come back and you will realize they are okay. But the main thing is to open yourself to many sources and let the Spirit tell you what is real.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

Even though I've been here for over 40 years, I'm not that sure when WL clearly left the Bible and went on his own. I well remember in the mid 80's when he started hatcheting the Psalms and the Psalms were not the only Bible he hatcheted. It really reveals how drugged we were when we didn't stand up and scream. The Christian faith is heavily bound in the Bible and our oracle, apostle, MOTA, dictator spent many years discrediting it while he continued to use the words "pure word of God."

Hi Lisbon..
I'm an oldie but goodie who hasn't been here in a while. I've been 'circling the globe'...the Christian globe. hee hee

I was in the LC from 1975 -1978/79. Fortunately for me, I was in a pretty healthy church life compared to a lot of them. I got saved straight out of the world and was immersed heavily into the Word of God. In 1975, Lee was still using the KJ and the NASB. Those are the translations I was raised in. There was no RcV. But he did start the Genesis messages then and while there was a lot of great stuff I learned from the bible and messages, I did not know any better as I had never picked up a bible in my life. So I had nothing to compare notes with.

I will say that in 1977, there was a HUGE shift to adulating Lee. He was the 'Paul' of this age, etc... and there was overkill emphasis on 'the church'. So it became The church and Christ. And by 1978, it was Lee and the church'. How 'bout that ???

I also noticed the same record was playing over and over and over. You know why? Because the Holy Spirit left. All that was there was NOISE. 'o Lord Jeeeeeeeesus'. His Name... His Precious Name became a sounding cymbal. No heart. No Love. No Anointing. Just dead repetitive Noise.

Back then, I did not know how I was going to leave the LC... so I moved to a different 'locality' which fell apart and I GOT set Free. But while I was out of 'the church', the 'church' was not out of me.

If I'd read my bible and didn't understand something, I would look for a WL or WN book to clarify. DUH !!!!!!!!!

After 18 months "out" I attend a Bible church and the gentleman there is a very well taught man of God and speaks from his heart. I cannot remember when I ever heard WL or any of the BBs or elders speak from their heart. WL just spoke what he had figured out and mostly it was not the Bible but him.

Cool. I personally think the LCrs are in such a weird predicament..due to the brain washing that it is necessary to go meet other believers and listen to 'pastors'.

Many here attend 'church'. I did for several years. I also watched a lot of Christian TV. All this helped get the LC out of me.

But I'm FREE from going to 'church' now. That was my final step OUT to follow the LAMB wherever HE goes. I don't even like labeling myself as a 'Christian'. I wholeheartedly believe and follow Father God by His Word and through His Spirit leading me, guiding me and enlightening me.

I do fellowship with like minded believers. No one I know had the LC experience I had / we had-have, but there are quite a few people out there that were kicked out of their 'church' and one friend of mine was called 'JEZEBEL' not Rebellious or leprous but JEZEBEL !! BL LOL !!

A couple of friends reminded me that God hates the deeds and the doctrine of the Nicolatians. (Clergy lording over the Laity).

Look up... cause we going up ! Jesus is coming ! Come KING Jesus! We LOVE YOU !! I LOVE YOU LORD JESUS ! I REALLY REALLY DO!

Invisible HUGS AND BLESSINGS!
Carol

[KSA]

After twenty-something years being in The Lord's Recovery (TLR) I think I'm on my way out, but don't know how much to leave behind.

In the paraphrazed words of apostle Paul, leave what is behind and push forward. )))

Actually, the process of reevaluating and reexamining your past experience when you decide what to drop and what to keep is rewarding in itself. You will have to reexamine everything, what you decide to keep is yet to be seen. It is different for everyone

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by KSA

In the paraphrazed words of apostle Paul, leave what is behind and push forward. )))

Actually, the process of reevaluating and reexamining your past experience when you decide what to drop and what to keep is rewarding in itself. You will have to reexamine everything, what you decide to keep is yet to be seen. It is different for everyone

HEY HUGS TO YOU KSA!!

little happy family reunion here !!! Is it a sign of things to come ?

Carol

[KSA]

Hey, Carol, it is nice to see that you kept your exuberant spirit

[HERn]

I'm feeling more free to speak. My spouse and I touched the church through a relative. We had seen that when we come together everyone has a portion to contribute. The first meeting we attended demonstrated a mutual functioning and a sincere love for The Lord at the table meetings. So, we ignored the strange (to us) concepts and doctrines we heard and figured we would understand it some day. The saints took care of us and were genuine (I think) so we ignored some red flags. I was willing to see WL and WN as mature brothers with significant contributions to make regarding maintaining a vital relationship with Christ, but I don't consider him the minister of the age, god's oracle, or even an apostle on the same level as Paul. I think they made significant contributions, but I would not rank them as being equal to Luther. The issues with Daystar, an immoral manager of LSM, strange ideas about deputy authority, bringing oriental sociology/culture into the church, and the exclusive view that The Lord Spirit is only working through the LSM-LR-LC are examples of bad fruit (at least to me).

[aron]

Originally Posted by HERn

My spouse and I touched the church through a relative. We had seen that when we come together everyone has a portion to contribute.

Initially you will be "free" to indulge whatever contribution you feel led. Eventually you will be expected to be "one" with everyone else, which means that your contribution is limited to repeating, verbatim if possible, the words of God's oracle, Mssrs Nee & Lee. Those who get their speaking from the Lord and from the still, small voice within, and not through the intermediary of "the interpreted word", will be encouraged not to contribute.

And if you stubbornly decide to contribute something not attributable to the supposed ministry of the age, you will be labeled as "independent", and eventually "rebellious" and "leprous". It is group think, pure and simple. If you are not subsumed in the Hive Mind, you're relegated to the fringes of this movement, and won't contribute much. And all the while, of course, you're encouraged to get in the "center lane", which you're told is no longer you but Christ. But actually it is the Collective: the Hive, fronting the ministry, has now replaced Christ. They will dress it up with spiritual terminology, of course, like "the Church" and "the Body" and so forth, but when push comes to shove you will see what is clear: they are not for Christ, nor the Spirit, nor the Word, nor for weaker members, the widows and orphans. They are for the ministry.

So for those who are OK in that system, and being a cheerleader for the ministry of a man, then yes everyone does have a portion to contribute.

[HERn]

One thing I'm not going to throw out (because I don't think it's leaven) is my revived love for my Lord Jesus. It may be that there are two extremes of people in what's known as the LSM-associated Lord's Recovery (most are probably somewhere in between). I don't know, but it may be that these two extremes are mutually exclusive. I can't imagine a simple lover of Jesus ever being a legalistic LSM follower, but I can imagine a simple lover of Jesus beginning in the LSM-associated Lord's Recovery leaving their first love and becoming a legalistic LSM follower. I would ask my lurking brothers and sisters first "Where would you place yourself on this imaginary scale?"; and second "Where would you like to be?"

Simple Lovers of Jesus>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Legalistic Followers of LSM

[Dave]

Originally Posted by HERn

One thing I'm not going to throw out (because I don't think it's leaven) is my revived love for my Lord Jesus. It may be that there are two extremes of people in what's known as the LSM-associated Lord's Recovery (most are probably somewhere in between). I don't know, but it may be that these two extremes are mutually exclusive. I can't imagine a simple lover of Jesus ever being a legalistic LSM follower, but I can imagine a simple lover of Jesus beginning in the LSM-associated Lord's Recovery leaving their first love and becoming a legalistic LSM follower. I would ask my lurking brothers and sisters first "Where would you place yourself on this imaginary scale?"; and second "Where would you like to be?"

Simple Lovers of Jesus>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Legalistic Followers of LSM

It is great that you are a simple lover of Jesus...that is the only way to go from my perspective.... on your scale...Simple Lovers of Jesus> that is where I stand...if we don't love God and our brother then where are we?... Jesus fed the hungry and healed the sick...if we don't follow those precedents I am not sure what our beliefs actually mean... There has to be an outcome to beliefs. Beliefs are not isolated...okay...you believe, but what is the outcome of your beliefs in your life? Paul and other brethren also cared about the poor Gal. 2:10.

It is a real miricle that we on this forum are still believers and I believe most of us are. We wrestle not against flesh and blood. It's not hard for me to believe that today. As one poster has often said, how could something that looked so good be so bad? At 84 I have been conned more than once and the feeling is not so good.

I listened to WL for 25 years and to me the worst thing was the bait and switch. And it took me a while to see it was going on. Remember how often he used to speak of the "pure word of God". That was attractive to me. Then later he would hatchet whole chapters of the Bible. He harshly criticized other Christian leaders labeling them as hirelings then charging millions of dollars to hear him speak. but we all said praise The Lord and were so happy. Admittedly some of my trips were fun including Disnay Land an other things.
I have really come to the conclusion that "All the world's a stage" is as true as you can get outside of God and our knowledge Him is not that good. WL was certainly no exception. His act of quiet composure was... I heard him preach the gospel in my locale once in Chinese and it was a riot. Even though it has been over 30 years ago my distinct feeling was , this is the real Lee. Two hours later he had his other facade.

How many elders meetings have we heard of where the real WL spoke when he was venting his wrath. He would boast of himself to us peons but he would only show his wrath to the elders. Strange? It worked for him for 47 years and with the blendeds an additional 18.
Lisbon

[Cal]

Two things that are demonstrably bad ideas:

1) The NFL "Football Move" Rule.

2) The LC "Local Ground" Rule.

Sounded good in theory, but in practice... something else.

Go Dez!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Two things that are demonstrably bad ideas:

1) The NFL "Football Move" Rule.

2) The LC "Local Ground" Rule.

Sounded good in theory, but in practice... something else.

Go Dez!

What I would give to be in Jerra's place tonight!

Go Buckeyes.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Remember how often he used to speak of the "pure word of God". That was attractive to me.

And me too. But I think that even if they kept saying "pure word of God," it was really meant to be the "interpreted word of God," and the interpretation was always Lee's. No questions asked (unless you want the door).

BTW. Looks like the "Unregistered" here was really Lisbon. Probably had a system problem, or failed to check the " keep me signed no" box.

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I have really come to the conclusion that "All the world's a stage" is as true as you can get outside of God and our knowledge Him is not that good. WL was certainly no exception. His act of quiet composure was... I heard him preach the gospel in my locale once in Chinese and it was a riot. Even though it has been over 30 years ago my distinct feeling was , this is the real Lee. Two hours later he had his other facade.

Lisbon, would you mind elaborating on this? I wasn't sure whether you mean he displayed anger in front of the Chinese members, but became calm in English -- or do you mean "riot" in the sense of "hysterical"?

[HERn]

I would like to say to anyone whose conscience is bothering them about following the LSM "Lord's Recovery" that having left I am enjoying the Lord, enjoying His word, and finding dear lovers of Jesus in what LSM has labeled Babylon and the daughters of the harlot. I believe there was only one minister of the age and that was Paul, not Luther, not Calvin and certainly not Nee or Lee.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by HERn

I would like to say to anyone whose conscience is bothering them about following the LSM "Lord's Recovery" that having left I am enjoying the Lord, enjoying His word, and finding dear lovers of Jesus in what LSM has labeled Babylon and the daughters of the harlot. I believe there was only one minister of the age and that was Paul, not Luther, not Calvin and certainly not Nee or Lee.

Can anyone tell me where that phrase 'minister of the age' originated from? I checked through various translations if I could find it in the bible. Did not find one. I have never heard anyone use that phrase outside the LSM system.

While he authored much of the NT and was inspired by the Spirit of God, it is not Paul who ministers to me, it is the Holy Spirit who ministers to me.

I have heard people hold apostle Paul in high esteem but have never heard them describe him as the 'minister of the age'.

Just wondering.

Carol

[HERn]

Parable of the Good Shepherd (slightly retold from Unvarnished NT)

He, trying to defend himself, said to Jesus, “But who is my neighbor?” By way of answer Jesus said, “Once there was a fellow coming back from Jerusalem to Jericho, and he fell among thieves, who stripped him, gave him a beating, and went off leaving him half dead. Now by chance a blended brother walked by seeing the man but ignored him because he knew that he was not here for those kinds of things. Then a full-time serving one walked by seeing the man but ignored him because he was in a hurry to meet with young scholars on campus who were potentially good building material. But a certain member of one of the daughters of the harlot who was on the road came upon him and felt sorry for him, and went up and bandaged his wounds, poured oil and wine on them, and seating him on his own mount, brought him to the inn and looked after him. The next day he pulled out two drachmas and gave them to the innkeeper saying, ‘Look after him, and whatever you lay out I will repay you on my way back.’ Which of these three would you say turned out to be the neighbor of the one who fell among thieves?” He said, “The one who had mercy on him.” Said Jesus, “Go and do likewise.”

This was prompted by my hearing of a sermon on practical generosity this morning.

I think I'll throw out this LSM mindset on generosity.

[Lisbon]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

Lisbon, would you mind elaborating on this? I wasn't sure whether you mean he displayed anger in front of the Chinese members, but became calm in English -- or do you mean "riot" in the sense of "hysterical"?

I'll have to admit it is not easy for me to describe WL's gospel preaching in Dallas. If you ever heard Max Rapaport preach the gospel, it would be a sound semilar but still louder and feistier. There was hardly a let up in the 30 min talk which was so unlike WL's mode. There was nothing of anger in his speaking.
Lisbon

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

I'll have to admit it is not easy for me to describe WL's gospel preaching in Dallas. If you ever heard Max Rapaport preach the gospel, it would be a sound semilar but still louder and feistier. There was hardly a let up in the 30 min talk which was so unlike WL's mode. There was nothing of anger in his speaking.
Lisbon

So perhaps this would imply that, to the extent that we were emulating Witness Lee and his particular style, we might really have been emulating Witness Lee's particular "English-speaking style"?

[HERn]

We were at our fourth home meeting at our new E-free church last night. First we ate a meal and fellowshipped, then prayed, and read and talked about Romans 5. We prayed for lots of things. I wish that the members of the Lord's Recovery who have been brainwashed to believe there is nothing of life outside of their little group could have experienced it. The brother who's house we met in is so precious. He owns a small organic produce farm smack in the middle of new apartment complexes that he probably needs to sell and retire because he's got some health issues and is older. But, he houses and employs about 6 needy ones that depend on him for survival. I'm sure he could sell out and move to Florida and retire, but I think he hangs on for them. I think I'm seeing Christ.

[HERn]

I went through 9 months of living hell while making my departure. I had nightmares and woke up my wife cursing and yelling. I'm sorry to say that there were many nights that I could not sleep without a talk with Jack Daniels or Jim Beam. I'm so much happier now, no more nightmares. I'm in a church where everything is simple, the brothers are genuine, no one is competing to be the most absolute, and the dear pastors are gentle shepherds taking care of the flock without being controlled by a denominational headquarters. Jack and Jim still drop by for visits, but not as often.

[Lisbon]

I'm not sure where this belongs but Sunday I went back to my LC. Actually I had been wanting to go for some time but felt too hypocritical. I'm certainly quite a hypocrite and don't see much way out at present. I met two elders just as I walked in the front door and was greeted very warmly by one and not that badly by the other. Actually had a very good visit. Many said they missed me and I had good conversation with several.

But the meeting! So poor. No Prayer, one poor song. To begin with there was so much noise that the song was drowned out by the talk. The song was a poor choice but probably the choice of Anaheim, don't know. The intro Bro stood and asked for the verses to be read following his five minute talk.

There were 30 speakings with the piano going off only two or three times. Their talks were mainly short. Quite a lot of one minute gaps which would not have been tolerated in the years past. I sat opposite the leading elder, who never spoke, and wondered if he was considering what I was thinking.
Almost no testimonies, just reading the HWFMR.

There were around 250 in the meeting about the same number we had in 1975. Sad. Forty years, little increase. Of course we now have eight other meeting places in the metroplex with I would guess 1500 to 2000 total attendees. The population of the metro is around 6 million.

One more thing of significance, the LC now has another meeting near the heart of the city where the yuppies live. Remember, no high, no low, no rich, no poor! With the Pope's blessing it's OK. Huh?

I don't think my daughter sees any difference. It's scarey. We're all that way. The RCC thinks they're so proper and the other 100,000 sects. I think the Lord needs to open our eyes too. Oh Lord!
Lisbon

[HERn]

I don't think anything happens spontaneously when it's from LSM and the BBs.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by HERn

I don't think anything happens spontaneously when it's from LSM and the BBs.

Except for their condemnation of "poor, poor, degraded Christianity" and the brothers and sisters serving as clergy.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by HERn

Except for their condemnation of "poor, poor, degraded Christianity" and the brothers and sisters serving as clergy.

Reminds me, one of the brothers in the brothers house I was in, his first training was the 94 Summer Training. Poor poor Christianity was one of the few quotes he passed on from the training.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by HERn

Except for their condemnation of "poor, poor, degraded Christianity" and the brothers and sisters serving as clergy.

I want to confess and apologize to the body of Christ that I participated in condemning Christianity and the clergy.

[HERn]

I'm sorry that I could not find the thread where the Chandler-Village Church-divorce issue was posted, but I just read about where the elders of that church apologized for being controlling. Don't any of you LSM accolytes hold your breath waiting for the BBs or elders to apologize. Remember that the lords anointed is right even when he is wrong, and that we cover the sins of the leaders. http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/...ion-to-di.html

[aron]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

the LC now has another meeting near the heart of the city where the yuppies live.

It's all about getting the yuppies. White, middle class, educated yuppies. That was what I was taught 20 years ago by the FTTA trainers and I don't think it's changed.

We were taught this, point-blank, in meetings of several hundred "college-age trainees". Go for the whitebread Middle American. They weren't subtle about it: if you could get a big, husky, corn-fed American boy off a college campus, you were a fisher of men, first class.

Me, I had the bad habit of dragging in all the poor and miserable detritus of the world. The bums and losers. I just couldn't resist; I related to them so well. How did Paul call it? The "scum and offscouring" of the world.

On the other hand, I must confess that they put up with me for several years. Maybe they thought they could yuppify me.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

It's all about getting the yuppies. White, middle class, educated yuppies. That was what I was taught 20 years ago by the FTTA trainers and I don't think it's changed.

We were taught this, point-blank, in meetings of several hundred "college-age trainees". Go for the whitebread Middle American. They weren't subtle about it: if you could get a big, husky, corn-fed American boy off a college campus, you were a fisher of men, first class.

Me, I had the bad habit of dragging in all the poor and miserable detritus of the world. The bums and losers. I just couldn't resist; I related to them so well. How did Paul call it? The "scum and offscouring" of the world.

I've been called a lot of things in my life, but this one stands out ...

[Lisbon]

Above Awareness indicated that Mel Porter was not so 'in' in the past. In 1973 or 74 I heard of some problem with Porter but then never heard more.

Recently I heard he was in some kind of leading position in either Arizona or Colo. Does anyone know his situation at present.

Lisbon

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

Above Awareness indicated that Mel Porter was not so 'in' in the past. In 1973 or 74 I heard of some problem with Porter but then never heard more.

Recently I heard he was in some kind of leading position in either Arizona or Colo. Does anyone know his situation at present.

Lisbon

I think he is in south Florida. An elder told me that Mel supported me writing a letter to RK complaining about the behavior of other elders in my locality. I wrote a draft letter and asked the elder if he would sign it with me and he said no. To me this was a major red flag because he urged me to write the letter but would not sign it with me. I am so glad that I am not a part of that self absorbed sect of Christianity known as the lords recovery.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

Above Awareness indicated that Mel Porter was not so 'in' in the past. In 1973 or 74 I heard of some problem with Porter but then never heard more.

Recently I heard he was in some kind of leading position in either Arizona or Colo. Does anyone know his situation at present.

Lisbon

I'd like to know that too bro Lisbon. I only know what I've been told after leaving, from others that ran into the same problem I ran into with Mel. One of them was an elder with Mel when he gave me the ultimatum to take his personality or get out. He was there. I can picture him in my mind's eye, sitting to the left of me, while Mel was in my face. Then five years later, the same thing happened to him, and to others I was close to before and during the LC.

Apparently the fallout of high quality brothers leaving the LC in Miami caught Lee's attention and he fire Mel, if I can call it that.

Somewhere during that time I heard that Mel was in Tampa. So when I was visiting a friend in Tampa I tried to call him. I got his voicemail. I so wanted to think him for blowing me out of the LC.

But somewhere along the line Lee, and/or company, rehired Porter. I saw that in Oct 2006 -- I think bro Ohio was there when it went down -- Mel was a signatory on Titus Chu's excommunication encyclical, as representing "U.S.A."

He's got to be an ignorant old fart by now. He was ignorant back then. I really can't believe that Lee would put such a spiritually ignorant person in charge. It was a big factor in breaking my trust in Lee. That led to eventually breaking all my trust into smithereens. I've never been the same. Thanks Mel!

[Dave]

Originally Posted by awareness

I'd like to know that too bro Lisbon. I only know what I've been told after leaving, from others that ran into the same problem I ran into with Mel. One of them was an elder with Mel when he gave me the ultimatum to take his personality or get out. He was there. I can picture him in my mind's eye, sitting to the left of me, while Mel was in my face. Then five years later, the same thing happened to him, and to others I was close to before and during the LC.

Apparently the fallout of high quality brothers leaving the LC in Miami caught Lee's attention and he fire Mel, if I can call it that.

Somewhere during that time I heard that Mel was in Tampa. So when I was visiting a friend in Tampa I tried to call him. I got his voicemail. I so wanted to think him for blowing me out of the LC.

But somewhere along the line Lee, and/or company, rehired Porter. I saw that in Oct 2006 -- I think bro Ohio was there when it went down -- Mel was a signatory on Titus Chu's excommunication encyclical, as representing "U.S.A."

He's got to be an ignorant old fart by now. He was ignorant back then. I really can't believe that Lee would put such a spiritually ignorant person in charge. It was a big factor in breaking my trust in Lee. That led to eventually breaking all my trust into smithereens. I've never been the same. Thanks Mel!

It's interesting to note that the letter attributed to Clement (First Clement 94-95AD), the 3rd Bishop of Rome, chastises the congregation in Corinth for ousting their elders. This is the first glimpse of Rome attempting to control other churches.

While Lee espoused the "local church" it was never local and it is not local today. He consistently tried to control all of the churches world wide which is what led him into problems abroad and at home. That is why you have someone like Mel in the leadership of a local church---it was Lee's attempt at having control which superseded any level of spirituality.

The same problem happened in Detroit with RK, HA, and TS as elders. RK and TS came from Eldon hall and were taught by Lee. They had no business being elders but they were self anointed when they arrived. TS left the church, divorced and who knows what happened to him. RK didn't migrate with us to Ft. Lauderdale but took the opportunity to move back to Anaheim where he is a big honcho in the LC.

This is an inherently significant problem with non-democratic congregations. Yes, democracy and the congregational model (Cambridge Platform 1648) can be messy but when you have one leader whom everyone follows it can lead to all kinds of machinations. When a "God (Lee)" appointed elder such as Mel is in charge and he really believes he is the anointed one in a locality there is going to be trouble. Imagine what it must be like if you are someone walking around thinking that you are the voice of God in a city such as Ft. Lauderdale or Miami. What power you have, what insight you have and what will befall those who go against you as you carry out God's(Lee) mission in your locality.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Dave

It's interesting to note that the letter attributed to Clement (First Clement 94-95AD), the 3rd Bishop of Rome, chastises the congregation in Corinth for ousting their elders. This is the first glimpse of Rome attempting to control other churches.

While Lee espoused the "local church" it was never local and it is not local today. He consistently tried to control all of the churches world wide which is what led him into problems abroad and at home. That is why you have someone like Mel in the leadership of a local church---it was Lee's attempt at having control which superseded any level of spirituality.

The same problem happened in Detroit with RK, HA, and TS as elders. RK and TS came from Eldon hall and were taught by Lee. They had no business being elders but they were self anointed when they arrived. TS left the church, divorced and who knows what happened to him. RK didn't migrate with us to Ft. Lauderdale but took the opportunity to move back to Anaheim where he is a big honcho in the LC.

This is an inherently significant problem with non-democratic congregations. Yes, democracy and the congregational model (Cambridge Platform 1648) can be messy but when you have one leader whom everyone follows it can lead to all kinds of machinations. When a "God (Lee)" appointed elder such as Mel is in charge and he really believes he is the anointed one in a locality there is going to be trouble. Imagine what it must be like if you are someone walking around thinking that you are the voice of God in a city such as Ft. Lauderdale or Miami. What power you have, what insight you have and what will befall those who go against you as you carry out God's(Lee) mission in your locality.

Great post!

The "open" branch of the Plymouth Brethren, in response to Darby's centralized control, enacted the principle of unanimity for all serious church decisions. While it too has its drawbacks (it can easily be sabotaged by a few dissidents), it is an attempt to make decisions only after all the congregation has arrived at one mind via the prayer of each.

Lee's proposed solution to all the "evils" of denominationalism was autonomous "local" churches, each let by elders / shepherds. Today the LC's have become a far worse denomination than any of the ones they long have condemned. What kind of hypocrisy is that to declare to the world that all control is local? During the heyday of the "new way," Lee had become a far worse Pope than the one he had condemned his whole lifetime.

While in the LC's, I personally participated in two migrations to startup new churches. Over time I watched Titus Chu manipulate and nearly destroy two prosperous LC's via his full-time worker relocation programs. His primary concern was making sure that every satellite LC remained steadfastly under his dominion. The condition of the actual saints or the church seemed to be the last of his concerns.

[HERn]

The "denominations" aren't that bad! Went to a parents meeting where the pastor introduced the recently hired youth directors. Both gave testimonies to God's salvation and care in their lives AND passed out a survey asking how they could better serve the high schoolers. In the so-called recovery all you need to do is graduate from the FTT and you are "ordained" to serve. At least in this E-Free church parents were invited to hear the testimonies of those who would be influencing their children. In the so called recovery it's all about full-timers having attended the FTT. I praise God for leading me out of this self absorbed tiny Christian sect.

[Lisbon]

I am sometimes bewildered with what I read on this forum. Posters whom I usually agree with and enjoy often speak of the glory of the sixties and I sort of understand. And as WL often said, there is a great big '"but". It's pretty clear to me that almost all WL's history of pre WN came to us at the hand or mouth of WL. That's not good, not trustworthy. It's in the same mode as Washington chopping the cherry tree. Folk lore.

If WL was previously "good" when did he turn bad. It's hard for me to think he just turned bad with Day Star. I read this quote, someone ask WN who should they select to get a certain job done, and the reply was WL can get it done.

The only good comment WL made on"Against the Tide" was that it had a picture of him at WN's wedding. WL badly needed the help of WN. And he milked it for all its worth.

I've officially been out only three and half years after being in LC for 40 yrs.
I am some unhappy to hear that some of you were sired by WL. I don't believe it. I met with RK in Irving for a few years and of course he said that.
Even that long ago I didn't like the description. But if you do I would not argue. When WL first spoke, he lied. " I just believe in the pure word of God.." He went so far as to say he would believe in verbal inspiration if we could get an accurate translation of New Testament. He picked and chose what he would believe and teach. Never in my 40 years did I ever hear anyone quote 1Tim 1:3 or whatever and quote the whole of the sentence. The part about the end of the charge being love out of a pure heart, genuine faith, and a good conscience I never once heard. Somethings badly wrong there. I think I shouldn't call him all the things I think he was but one of them is wolf.

I think I'm used to being deceived. I began voting Republican in 1952 and just this year, I've concluded that I was deceived all those years. So WL and the RNC both have deceive me many years. The only thing I have reaped from this sad time is I now pray for many more people and lately even for RK, BP, and RG. I'm not good and have had much bad feelings toward these brothers and I now feel they are badly deceived as I was.
Lord be merciful.
Lisbon

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

If WL was previously "good" when did he turn bad. It's hard for me to think he just turned bad with Day Star. I read this quote, someone ask WN who should they select to get a certain job done, and the reply was WL can get it done.

I think I'm used to being deceived. I began voting Republican in 1952 and just this year, I've concluded that I was deceived all those years. So WL and the RNC both have deceive me many years.
Lisbon

I understand the connections here, and I can surely relate to the same deceptions as you, only for shorter periods of time.

When I think back about my time in the LC's, or for that matter, my time with other conservatives, my views were not just shaped by the leaders, but by the many members at my side, whom I interacted with on a daily basis. As long as the leadership went in a direction I was comfortable with, and aligned with my own principles, then I followed along. Eventually those leaderships have taken their programs in directions I could no longer agree with, so I parted ways.

Let's face it, all men are liars. The Bible says so, and these recent conventions prove it. The same could be said of many LC leaders. I guess that makes me a liar too. Some have said that about my posts here.

Our salvation ultimately hinges on our attachment to the Truth, whose name is Jesus.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Lisbon

I think I'm used to being deceived. I began voting Republican in 1952 and just this year, I've concluded that I was deceived all those years. So WL and the RNC both have deceive me many years. The only thing I have reaped from this sad time is I now pray for many more people and lately even for RK, BP, and RG.

I relate to some degree. I always voted Democratic, but after watching the first 2 days of the DNC in Philly I seriously wondered how I could ever support those people. The ineptitude, incompetence and venality on display made me re-evaluate everything.

Ah, well. Come, Lord Jesus. Amen.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

I relate to some degree. I always voted Democratic, but after watching the first 2 days of the DNC in Philly I seriously wondered how I could ever support those people. The ineptitude, incompetence and venality on display made me re-evaluate everything.

Ah, well. Come, Lord Jesus. Amen.

How much to throw out?

Time to throw out any hope we have in man, in politics, in the courts, in elected officials, and in governments.

I left the Democratic Party when they legalized abortion. I left the Republican Party when I saw they were the same.

[JJ]

My top three things to throw out and what to replace them with.

1) "I just need to turn to my spirit" or "turn to your spirit". Instead: "Turn our (or your) heart to the Lord (who is the Spirit).
2) Starting every meeting with a group "chant of "O Lord Jesus". Instead: Genuine prayer inspired by the Spirit
3) Holy Word for Morning Revival. Instead: Bible Verses (let's get back to basics!)

[JJ]

Originally Posted by JJ

My top three things to throw out and what to replace them with.

1) "I just need to turn to my spirit" or "turn to your spirit". Instead: "Turn our (or your) heart to the Lord (who is the Spirit).
2) Starting every meeting with a group "chant of "O Lord Jesus". Instead: Genuine prayer inspired by the Spirit
3) Holy Word for Morning Revival. Instead: Bible Verses (let's get back to basics!)

Two more things to throw out and what to replace them with:

4) "Give up the world". Instead "Don't love the world" and see John's definition of the world in 1 John to understand what the world is.

5) "get out of your mind". Instead "use the mind of the Spirit, and "you have the mind of Christ".

[JJ]

Originally Posted by HERn

After twenty-something years being in The Lord's Recovery (TLR) I think I'm on my way out, but don't know how much to leave behind. TLR helped revive and restore my love of The Lord that I first had at my conversion. It did this by bringing my attention back to Christ and Him alone. I hope my restored love is genuine and not some type of fakery. I will also miss what we call The Lord's Table Meeting (TLTM) where I could express and pour out my love to Him by singing and prayers. For those of you who have left TLR how were you able to continue this type of corporate worship? Also, for those of you who had the same experience of recovering your first love for The Lord do you feel it was genuine and how did you continue to cultivate this after leaving TLR?

I have not found anything like TLR in TLTM outside of it. Too bad TLR in TLTM doesn't seem to be what it once was in some localities.

I suspect that is because we (and I include myself): insulted fellow believers too many times by "trashing them" in our ministry and hearts, insulted the headship of Christ by putting "the body" and our leaders above Him, insulted the Father by too much Spiritless worship, and insulted the Spirit by not following his lead (but "what used to work).

[HERn]

Originally Posted by JJ

I have not found anything like TLR in TLTM outside of it. Too bad TLR in TLTM doesn't seem to be what it once was in some localities.

I suspect that is because we (and I include myself): insulted fellow believers too many times by "trashing them" in our ministry and hearts, insulted the headship of Christ by putting "the body" and our leaders above Him, insulted the Father by too much Spiritless worship, and insulted the Spirit by not following his lead (but "what used to work).

Hi JJ! Welcome! I've found that my feelings for the Lord are just as strong in church meetings outside the LC, and may even be more genuine. For a sect of Christianity that says it has no liturgy the LSM LCs have methods and a practice that is very similar everywhere. The elders meet twice a year where the practices mandated from the Blendeds are reinforced. My son was in the GLA where some different things were being practiced and the blindeds cut off an entire region. I might be wrong, but I think the LSM LSs are eventually going to implode as the more moderate saints who do not obey LSM and exalt WL leave. Left behind will be the Lee worshippers and the LSM acolytes who care more for the system than the sheep.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by HERn

Hi JJ! Welcome! I've found that my feelings for the Lord are just as strong in church meetings outside the LC, and may even be more genuine. For a sect of Christianity that says it has no liturgy the LSM LCs have methods and a practice that is very similar everywhere. The elders meet twice a year where the practices mandated from the Blendeds are reinforced. My son was in the GLA where some different things were being practiced and the blindeds cut off an entire region. I might be wrong, but I think the LSM LSs are eventually going to implode as the more moderate saints who do not obey LSM and exalt WL leave. Left behind will be the Lee worshippers and the LSM acolytes who care more for the system than the sheep.

Thanks, HERn. I agree. That's why I'm not there now. I do miss openly praying, calling a song, praising, testifying under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit during the Lord's table though.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by HERn

Left behind will be the Lee worshippers and the LSM acolytes who care more for the system than the sheep.

That's been happening gradually. They (meaning those in the local churches) generally love those and include those who love the ministry. It's more ministry churches than it is local churches. LSM acolytes are getting older with much of the younger ones are ones raised in the local churches. Young people who don't have an appetite for the ministry will find themselves being neglected in lieu of young people who do have an appetite for the ministry. I've seen it happen. The neglected young people over time stop meeting with the local churches.
This is why my description of the LSM/LC is seen in Luke 6:32

"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them."

I could come up with a list what qualities LSM acolytes look for in caring for the system.

• 100% for the ministry
• no criticisms
• no questions
• no concerns
• ignore your conscience
• speaking is 100% positive

[JJ]

Originally Posted by JJ

I have not found anything like TLR in TLTM outside of it. Too bad TLR in TLTM doesn't seem to be what it once was in some localities.

I suspect that is because we (and I include myself): insulted fellow believers too many times by "trashing them" in our ministry and hearts, insulted the headship of Christ by putting "the body" and our leaders above Him, insulted the Father by too much Spiritless worship, and insulted the Spirit by not following his lead (but "what used to work).

Oops. I want to correct my post. I have not found anything like TLTM (the Lords Table Meeting) outside of TLR. Too bad the Lords Table meeting in The Lords Recovery doesn't seem to be what it once was in some localities.

Sorry for the confusion!

[JJ]

Originally Posted by HERn

After twenty-something years being in The Lord's Recovery (TLR) I think I'm on my way out, but don't know how much to leave behind. TLR helped revive and restore my love of The Lord that I first had at my conversion. It did this by bringing my attention back to Christ and Him alone. I hope my restored love is genuine and not some type of fakery. I will also miss what we call The Lord's Table Meeting (TLTM) where I could express and pour out my love to Him by singing and prayers. For those of you who have left TLR how were you able to continue this type of corporate worship? Also, for those of you who had the same experience of recovering your first love for The Lord do you feel it was genuine and how did you continue to cultivate this after leaving TLR?

Here is something not to throw out (quote see page 97 of "The Normal Christian Church Life" by Watchman Nee, published by LSM:

"If in a given place anyone believes on the Lord, as a matter of course he is a constituent of the church in that place; there is no further step necessary in order to make him a constituent. No subsequent joining is required of him. Provided he belongs to the Lord, he already belongs to the church in that locality; and since he already belongs to the church, his belonging cannot be made subject to any condition. If, before recognizing a believer as a member of the church, we insist that he join us, we are immediately in an unscriptural position."

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by JJ

Here is something not to throw out (quote see page 97 of "The Normal Christian Church Life" by Watchman Nee, published by LSM:

"If in a given place anyone believes on the Lord, as a matter of course he is a constituent of the church in that place; there is no further step necessary in order to make him a constituent. No subsequent joining is required of him. Provided he belongs to the Lord, he already belongs to the church in that locality; and since he already belongs to the church, his belonging cannot be made subject to any condition. If, before recognizing a believer as a member of the church, we insist that he join us, we are immediately in an unscriptural position."

Nee made various statements such as this that would have provided balance had LC leaders took it into account. It's ironic how LC members gloss over certain things like this that Nee said.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Nee made various statements such as this that would have provided balance had LC leaders took it into account. It's ironic how LC members gloss over certain things like this that Nee said.

TC had all the GLA leaders read Nee's TNCCL back in the early 2000's. We read it in our elders meeting, and could not believe how far off things had become.

[HERn]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f4whBsh9ovI


This morning in a real local church meeting I worshiped and praised my Lord with more feeling than I ever had in the LSM-controlled LCs.

Chris Tomlin

He became sin, who knew no sin
That we might become His righteousness
He humbled himself and carried the cross

Love so amazing, love so amazing

Jesus Messiah, name above all names
Blessed redeemer, Emmanuel
The rescue for sinners, the ransom from Heaven
Jesus Messiah, Lord of all

His body the bread, his blood the wine
Broken and poured out all for love
The whole earth trembled, and the veil was torn

Love so amazing, love so amazing, yeah

Jesus Messiah, name above all names
Blessed redeemer, Emmanuel
The rescue for sinners, the ransom from Heaven
Jesus Messiah, Lord of all

All our hope is in You, all our hope is in You
All the glory to You, God, the light of the world

Jesus Messiah, name above all names
Blessed redeemer, Emmanuel
The rescue for sinners, the ransom from Heaven
Jesus Messiah, Lord of all
--------------------------------------------------------
In the bible there is only the gospel. The false teaching of WL has created the so-called "high" and "low" gospel.

[TLFisher]

I've come to receive hymns composed by Chris Tomlin and other contemporary Christian composers as being God inspired. Though I know in the Local Churches, their God-inspired songwriting is criticized, ridiculed, etc as being "wordly", "fleshly", etc.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by HERn

After twenty-something years being in The Lord's Recovery (TLR) I think I'm on my way out, but don't know how much to leave behind. TLR helped revive and restore my love of The Lord that I first had at my conversion. It did this by bringing my attention back to Christ and Him alone. I hope my restored love is genuine and not some type of fakery. I will also miss what we call The Lord's Table Meeting (TLTM) where I could express and pour out my love to Him by singing and prayers. For those of you who have left TLR how were you able to continue this type of corporate worship? Also, for those of you who had the same experience of recovering your first love for The Lord do you feel it was genuine and how did you continue to cultivate this after leaving TLR?

I am always curious about the original post and the direction/s it takes after several hundred posts. I decided to bring this one to the top with my take on "How much to Throw Out".

When I left, I kept my Bible and threw out everything else. This really helped me. I had already proven myself not to be trusted to make decisions on the choices I had made up to that point. The only really good decision I had made was to just "walk away"; I also prayed "Lord don't let go of me, and please don't make me go back to that place."

I didn't read my bible for several years which I think was a good thing. I was in effect "de-toxed" .

I think Christians often take on too much responsibility for "figuring things out" when that's what got us in trouble in the first place. I now believe we can safely walk away from just about anything as long as we trust in the Lord to restore what He will to our lives. For example, we don't need to "find a church". Follow Him and He will lead you wherever He will. We somehow get this idea of what "church" is or what church "should be" then try to make it happen. He will build His church, we just need to get out of the way.

I think we could be lost on a deserted island with nothing -- but still be in the perfect will of God. There's not much to figure out there...just talk to Him, and thank Him for not letting go. I think that's called walking by "Faith" :-)

Nell

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Nell

I think Christians often take on too much responsibility for "figuring things out" when that's what got us in trouble in the first place. I now believe we can safely walk away from just about anything as long as we trust in the Lord to restore what He will to our lives.

I agree, Nell. Faith is simple. Just trust. Work is simple. Just obey. Honor God, serve others. Live out his love to someone who needs it. We meet them every day.

The impulse to "figure everything out" is increased when you have the mindset that the truth of the Bible is hidden behind what the words apparently say. I''m not saying there are not messages in the prophecies and types of the Bible. I'm just saying that to think that the apparent message is not the real message because there is another hidden message is a mistake that leads down the rabbit hole the LC lives in.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I agree, Nell. Faith is simple. Just trust. Work is simple. Just obey. Honor God, serve others. Live out his love to someone who needs it. We meet them every day.

The impulse to "figure everything out" is increased when you have the mindset that the truth of the Bible is hidden behind what the words apparently say. I''m not saying there are not messages in the prophecies and types of the Bible. I'm just saying that to think that the apparent message is not the real message because there is another hidden message is a mistake that leads down the rabbit hole the LC lives in.

So true about the LC.

We were trained to believe that the real message was the "low" gospel, and the apparent message was what everyone else missed, and Lee called it the "high" gospel of God's economy.

[NewManLiving]

While I totally agree with your reasoning we are after all human. We do sense things. When we pray many times we sense the Lord's presence. If we should sin we generally loose this peace and have a sense of being uncomfortable until sincere repentance is made and forgiveness is obtained. So I will not argue the terminology employed by the LC. In the early days it simply meant fellowship or lack of fellowship with the Lord. He is our Life and we do sense it. We also sense when we are disobedient. Call it what you will it exists. This is normal. But we all agree that the LC has given a new manipulative twist on the whole concept.

[Cal]

I've long maintained that the pressure to conform to Lee/LSM/"the brothers"/the Vision/etc is so great in the LC movement that true discernment of the Lord's leading by LCM members is emotionally impossible. Does anyone think that someone indoctrinated to believe that leaving the LCM will result in judgment by God could hear God telling them otherwise? I don't see how it's possible without distancing oneself from the emotional threat of not conforming.

LCMers are trained to be suspicious of and even fear any sense of God's leading which goes against their indoctrination. True freedom to follow the Spirit does not exist there. Kangas's "sense of life" is thus by definition tainted and unreliable.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by NewManLiving

While I totally agree with your reasoning we are after all human. We do sense things. When we pray many times we sense the Lord's presence. If we should sin we generally loose this peace and have a sense of being uncomfortable until sincere repentance is made and forgiveness is obtained. So I will not argue the terminology employed by the LC. In the early days it simply meant fellowship or lack of fellowship with the Lord. He is our Life and we do sense it. We also sense when we are disobedient. Call it what you will it exists. This is normal. But we all agree that the LC has given a new manipulative twist on the whole concept.

True story:

Once upon a time I was driving my car and there were 3-4 saints with me. We were on a trip from Houston to New Orleans I think. One was an obnoxious young brother who sat in the back seat bellowing out "Oh Lord Jesus". On and on it went. I was getting nervous in traffic and was totally distracted by both the brother and the traffic.

Finally, during a pause in the action, I said to the brother with the kindest tone I could muster under the circumstances and said sweetly: "Now that you're in your spirit, would you mind lowering the volume?"

I don't know who was more shocked by my request...him or me. Where was the "sense of life" in this case? Would the "sense of life", if genuine, clue this brother in that he needed to show some concern for others and the situation at hand? He was totally absorbed in the ritual he had learned in the LC and didn't care about anyone but himself.

We do "sense things", but is the Holy Spirit obnoxious? Rude? Clueless as to how his actions were affecting others? The "sense of life" teaching is too subjective...that's my point. This brother was "sensing life" and I was "sensing death" at the same time and in the same situation.

Another true story:
Way back in Houston, a sister visited the meeting. She was paraplegic and confined to a wheel chair. She was very sweet and a bunch of us single sisters went to Ray Graver and told him we wanted to invite her to move in to the sisters house. Sense of life, right?

What was Ray's response? "You're not that good." Blunt? Rude?

"Life" or "death"? The correct answer is "truth". He was right. We sisters were in no way prepared to take care of this sister's special and demanding needs. We loved this new sister. Our "sense of life" wanted to help her. It would have been a disaster. As good as our intentions were, we would have ended up in a huge mess. We didn't pray about it. We didn't "fellowship" about it. We just went by our feelings.

The "sense of life" is based on emotions and is not something you can live by.

Nell

[Cal]

I understand what you are saying, Nell. But in the case of apprehending the leading of the Holy Spirit, just what is that experience like to you? Some people say He matches the Bible. Yes, but which interpretation of the Bible? Calvinism or Arminianism? Covenant or Dispensational Theology? So ultimately the Spirit's leading is not just a logical deduction of the Bible's meaning. It's more than that. Ultimately it is a real and subjective experience of God himself guiding us.

A "sense of life" in the the most positive meaning is just a sense of the Spirit's leading. The Bible does say that to be spiritually minded is life and peace (Rom 8:6). I think "life" there is something that is experienced. To me a "sense of life" is just that sense of the presence and approval of the Holy Spirit. I don't use the term "sense of life" anymore, though. I just say "I sensed the Spirit" or "felt the Spirit" or something else more mainstream. But the experience is real and of course it is subjective. Every personal experience of God we have is subjective.

So I think you are going a bit far calling a "sense of life" just emotion. However, I do agree in the case of the LCM, the "sense of life" is often nothing more than a code word for the sense of what you'd better do to stay out of the doghouse with the leading ones. It's another way they bully people.

Again the thread topic is "what to throw out." Throwing out a subjective experience of the Lord's leading is going too far, even if someone wants to call it "the sense of life." Any idea can be abused by the LCM or anyone else, so just because someone abused it doesn't make it bathwater.

But I'm with you to say that those in the LCM often don't know the sense of life from indigestion, which may explain why Ron Kangas, Minoru Chen and the rest always look so dyspeptic when then are "sharing."

[NewManLiving]

Well put! To a normal Christian a sense of Life is simply following the Holy Spirit. This brings a sense of Life and Peace. The LC rote chanting that Nell describes has nothing to do with it.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I understand what you are saying, Nell. But in the case of apprehending the leading of the Holy Spirit, just what is that experience like to you? Some people say He matches the Bible. Yes, but which interpretation of the Bible? Calvinism or Arminianism? Covenant or Dispensational Theology? So ultimately the Spirit's leading is not just a logical deduction of the Bible's meaning. It's more than that. Ultimately it is a real and subjective experience of God himself guiding us.

A "sense of life" in the the most positive meaning is just a sense of the Spirit's leading. The Bible does say that to be spiritually minded is life and peace (Rom 8:6). I think "life" there is something that is experienced. To me a "sense of life" is just that sense of the presence and approval of the Holy Spirit. I don't use the term "sense of life" anymore, though. I just say "I sensed the Spirit" or "felt the Spirit" or something else more mainstream. But the experience is real and of course it is subjective. Every personal experience of God we have is subjective.

So I think you are going a bit far calling a "sense of life" just emotion. However, I do agree in the case of the LCM, the "sense of life" is often nothing more than a code word for the sense of what you'd better do to stay out of the doghouse with the leading ones. It's another way they bully people.

Again the thread topic is "what to throw out." Throwing out a subjective experience of the Lord's leading is going too far, even if someone wants to call it "the sense of life." Any idea can be abused by the LCM or anyone else, so just because someone abused it doesn't make it bathwater.

But I'm with you to say that those in the LCM often don't know the sense of life from indigestion, which may explain why Ron Kangas, Minoru Chen and the rest always look so dyspeptic when then are "sharing."

I guess I didn't explain what I mean very well. Of course, I don't believe the genuine leading of the Holy Spirit is "just emotion". I believe I said "based on" emotion, but I was talking about the LC "sense life" teaching...not the leading and guidance by God Himself. Unless someone can provide verses to the contrary, I believe that the LC "sense of life" teaching is not based on the clear teaching of the Word but relies on what folks like RK tells you is "life".

I gave two examples in my post below which to me illustrate that "sense life" is not reliable as the LC teaches it. In the LC context, "life" is what the leadership says it is.

In my experience, Jesus is my best friend. I talk to him often every day. He talks to me. He takes care of me. He is a real person to me. Lately I have had quite a few experiences where I realized that He had answered my prayers. I had asked for His help in a certain part of my life and I realized, even today, that He was taking care of me more completely than I could imagine or ask. I would take this over a "sense of life" any day.

Nell

[OBW]

. . . but I was talking about the LC "sense life" teaching...not the leading and guidance by God Himself. Unless someone can provide verses to the contrary, I believe that the LC "sense of life" teaching is not based on the clear teaching of the Word but relies on what folks like RK tells you is "life".

That is probably a good way to describe it.

For me the real question comes down to what kind of "sense of life" should we rely on that is not the guidance of God himself (however it is that he does it)? I mean, if I am getting some kind of sense that is not from God, then what is it really? Probably either some kind of emotion, or me thinking that I've figured something out on my own without the need of God's input.

I guess that seems a lot like me deciding what is good and evil without God's input via the Spirit or the word.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I understand what you are saying, Nell. But in the case of apprehending the leading of the Holy Spirit, just what is that experience like to you? Some people say He matches the Bible. Yes, but which interpretation of the Bible? Calvinism or Arminianism? Covenant or Dispensational Theology? So ultimately the Spirit's leading is not just a logical deduction of the Bible's meaning. It's more than that. Ultimately it is a real and subjective experience of God himself guiding us.

Without reference to the rest of your post where you discuss other aspects of a sense of the Spirit's leading, I note that most of the Spirit's leading is not about Calvinism or Arminianism, Covenant or Dispensational Theology, etc. In other words, not really much about doctrines.

Instead, the leading of the Holy Spirit is with regard to our living. It is not about whether I can or cannot lose my salvation. But it will lead me to repentance where that is required no matter whether you think you may or may not have lost your salvation. (And there is something to be said for — or maybe against — a common Calvinist position of skipping the real repentance and just claiming the blood, or claiming grace, or whatever is the formula of the particular day or group.) I lean Calvinist but do not entirely discount the Arminian view. I am less enamored with Dispensationalism though that is the primary theology of my assembly of choice.

But none of those are the things that the Spirit speaks to me about. More like my anger when driving in rush hour traffic. Or my wasting of too much of my evenings. And so forth. Nothing Calvinist or Arminian in either of those.

The only place where there might be some problem is when we come to the Bible with a mindset that the kinds of commands to deal righteously with everyone is set aside because of false teachings. Or biblical justice for the widow, orphan, homeless, sojourner, etc., is for the liberals and the soup kitchens because we are no longer under the law. But that is not a problem of Calvinism, Arminianism, Covenant theology or Dispensational theology. It is simply ignoring the Bible because it suits us.

I think the only sense we typically get about doctrines is a sense of pride in thinking ours is the better way to think about it. But let's get real. If you need to repent, you need to repent. Doesn't matter whether you think about it from a Calvinist or Arminian viewpoint. And whatever you think will happen in the end times, what actually happens will be what actually happens. It really won't matter if you expected it or thought it would be different. And it shouldn't affect whether or not you believe in Jesus. What might make a difference, if any, is whether I believe (present tense, not past tense) in the Son of God. That means I should be living as if I believe (not just believed on date X after having the Roman Road shown to me by someone doing evangelism on a campus).

[Cal]

Originally Posted by OBW

But none of those are the things that the Spirit speaks to me about. More like my anger when driving in rush hour traffic. Or my wasting of too much of my evenings. And so forth. Nothing Calvinist or Arminian in either of those.

I get your point. But there are plenty of practical living issues that--apparently given current thinking--are hard to determine by simply reading the Bible. For example:

Is gay marriage valid?

Is abortion permitted?

Can married couples divorce?

Can we sue other Christians?

There are arguments on both sides of these questions, and Christians line up both ways. So without some kind of direct guidance from God, simply knowing the Scriptures seems inadequate.

Thoughts?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Igzy

But I'm with you to say that those in the LCM often don't know the sense of life from indigestion, which may explain why Ron Kangas, Minoru Chen and the rest always look so dyspeptic when then are "sharing."

I don't know what to make of it.
Maybe they don't believe the LSM hype they're selling?
Maybe they know speaking at all those conferences is just for a paycheck?
Maybe they just need to drink more coffee?
Maybe those unlawful users of the internet has them figured out?

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Terry

I don't know what to make of it.
Maybe they don't believe the LSM hype they're selling?
Maybe they know speaking at all those conferences is just for a paycheck?
Maybe they just need to drink more coffee?
Maybe those unlawful users of the internet has them figured out?

I was talking to one of my sons this week and told him that "Christ is life, but life is not Christ" because there are many types of life; plant, animal, human, demonic, angelic, and divine. When a blended brother says he is following "life" which life is he talking about? To follow Christ is to follow His word, to follow the sense of life could mean following any number of types of life. Some of the elders and blendeds don't know the difference between their own human life and feelings and the divine life of Christ.

[HERn]

This was a pretty good article on biblical hyperbole.

http://www.equip.org/PDF/JAL014.pdf

[HERn]

Here's something else from the F. F. Bruce document.

"The New Testament bears ample witness to the centrifugal tendencies in apostolic Christianity: we have only to think of the tensions between Jewish and Gentile Christians, between legalists and libertarians, between the rank and file who were content with the ‘simple gospel’ and the spiritual elite who preferred what they imagined to be more advanced teaching."

The spiritual elite...sounds like the leaders of the LR.

"The church is the dwelling-place of the Spirit, and ‘where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom’ (II Cor. 3:17). Structures of ministry, government and order are of value so long as they provide vehicles for the free moving of the Spirit; when they cease to do that, they should be replaced by more suitable ones. Whatever at any time helps the church to discharge her proper functions―the worship of God, the strengthening of fellowship within her membership and the witness of outgoing and self-giving love to mankind―that is what matters. When the church thinks more of her status than of her service, she has taken a wrong path and must immediately retrace her steps. As the church’s Lord was (and remains) the Man for others, the church must be the society for others, the community of the reconciled which is at the same time the instrument by which the reconciling grace of God in Christ is communicated to the world. All that enables the church to be this is true development; all that hinders the church from being this is departure."

Wow! When a church thinks more of it's status than it's service...this sounds like the church of the blended brothers.

[HERn]

Last week I invited two local church brothers (lower case "b") that I I considered friends to my house for a beer. We r moving and I wanted to tell them that I loved them and was going on with the Lord and was sorry that I had to stop all contact with them as I was exiting the LC. I told them that I did not mean to hurt them, but that me and my family had gone through a traumatic experience. I was hoping for some "blessing", but they never said they loved me or wished me well on my new path. Oh well, I offered closure and asked for forgiveness, they were polite in the LC type of way. They have moved on and so have I.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by HERn

Last week I invited two local church brothers (lower case "b") that I I considered friends to my house for a beer. We r moving and I wanted to tell them that I loved them and was going on with the Lord and was sorry that I had to stop all contact with them as I was exiting the LC. I told them that I did not mean to hurt them, but that me and my family had gone through a traumatic experience. I was hoping for some "blessing", but they never said they loved me or wished me well on my new path. Oh well, I offered closure and asked for forgiveness, they were polite in the LC type of way. They have moved on and so have I.

As an old friend said to me, "there's no love in Laodicea."

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by HERn

Last week I invited two local church brothers (lower case "b") that I I considered friends to my house for a beer. We r moving and I wanted to tell them that I loved them and was going on with the Lord and was sorry that I had to stop all contact with them as I was exiting the LC. I told them that I did not mean to hurt them, but that me and my family had gone through a traumatic experience. I was hoping for some "blessing", but they never said they loved me or wished me well on my new path. Oh well, I offered closure and asked for forgiveness, they were polite in the LC type of way. They have moved on and so have I.

People don't really have friends in the local church. You considered them your friends, they consider you a brother, not a friend. That is not to say that a brother is worse than a friend, a brother is more than a friend. But a brother is not the same as a friend. The kind of love that is between Christian brothers is something that does not have to be expressed verbally. It is more of a good will kind of love than love between family members.

You know that they do not consider leaving them as just moving to a different address. If they cared about you may have hurt their feelings and they did not feel like giving you a "blessing".

[HERn]

I believe yours is a doctrine of demons. I choose to believe the healthy word of God rather than the twisted teachings of Lee.

New Testament Search
3 John 1:14 I hope to see you soon, and we will talk face to face. ...
... Peace to you. The friends here send their greetings. Greet the friends there by
name. ... [15] Peace be with you. Your friends here send you their greetings. ...
//biblehub.com/3_john/1-14.htm - 19k

Acts 27:3 The next day we landed at Sidon; and Julius, in kindness ...
The next day we landed at Sidon; and Julius, in kindness to Paul, allowed him
to go to his friends so they might provide for his needs. ...
//biblehub.com/acts/27-3.htm - 18k

John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's ...
Greater love has no one than this: to lay down one's life for one's friends. ... There is no greater love than to lay down one's life for one's friends. ...
//biblehub.com/john/15-13.htm - 17k

John 15:14 You are my friends if you do what I command.
You are my friends if you do what I command. ... You
are my friends if you do what I command. ...
//biblehub.com/john/15-14.htm - 16k

Acts 10:24 The following day he arrived in Caesarea. Cornelius was ...
The following day he arrived in Caesarea. Cornelius was expecting them
and had called together his relatives and close friends. ...
//biblehub.com/acts/10-24.htm - 18k

Luke 12:4 "I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who ...
"I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who
kill the body and after that can do no more. ...
//biblehub.com/luke/12-4.htm - 18k

Luke 15:6 and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors ...
and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and
says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep ...
//biblehub.com/luke/15-6.htm - 18k

Luke 15:9 And when she finds it, she calls her friends and ...
And when she finds it, she calls her friends and neighbors together
and says, 'Rejoice with me; I have found my lost coin ...
//biblehub.com/luke/15-9.htm - 18k

Luke 16:9 I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for ...
I tell you, use worldly wealth to gain friends for yourselves, so that when
it is gone, you will be welcomed into eternal dwellings. ...
//biblehub.com/luke/16-9.htm - 18k

Luke 23:12 That day Herod and Pilate became friends--before this ...
..... That day Herod and Pilate became friends--before this they had been enemies. ...
//biblehub.com/luke/23-12.htm - 17k

Luke 21:16 You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers and ...
You will be betrayed even by parents, brothers and sisters, relatives
and friends, and they will put some of you to death. ...
//biblehub.com/luke/21-16.htm - 18k

Acts 19:31 Even some of the officials of the province, friends of ...
Even some of the officials of the province, friends of Paul, sent him
a message begging him not to venture into the theater. ...
//biblehub.com/acts/19-31.htm - 18k

John 15:15 I no longer call you servants, because a servant does ...
... his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything
that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. ...
//biblehub.com/john/15-15.htm - 19k

Luke 7:6 So Jesus went with them. He was not far from the house ...
... He was not far from the house when the centurion sent friends to say to him: "Lord, don't trouble yourself, for I do not deserve to have you come under my roof ...
//biblehub.com/luke/7-6.htm - 19k

Acts 24:23 He ordered the centurion to keep Paul under guard but ...
He ordered the centurion to keep Paul under guard but to give him some
freedom and permit his friends to take care of his needs. ...
//biblehub.com/acts/24-23.htm - 19k

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

People don't really have friends in the local church.

There's a reason for this. It was part of Lee's design.

It was all too evident during the recent rounds of lawsuits and quarantines in the GLA.

It's simple. It cuts down on the losses during their regular "storms."

If the folks next to you leave for conscience' sake, they don't want the exodus to include you too.

[HERn]

I bumped into another brother today and it was so good to see him. He's doing well, but not married yet. I felt that I blessed him, but no blessing in return. Psychologically and sociologically it's traumatic to leave the LC. I want them to understand that I have not left my savior Jesus Christ.

[aron]

Originally Posted by HERn

I want them to understand that I have not left my savior Jesus Christ.

Let us go with Him, outside the camp, a la Heb 13:13. It's a lonely path, often, but it's the only path.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by HERn

I want them to understand that I have not left my savior Jesus Christ.

They know that in their hearts. It's their minds that are the problem. Jesus was misunderstood many times, too. But those who were meant to eventually came around to him. Including you and me.

I know it hurts to have those close to you turn their backs on you. But you have one Friend who won't.

[googlelight]

Originally Posted by HERn

After twenty-something years being in The Lord's Recovery (TLR) I think I'm on my way out, but don't know how much to leave behind. TLR helped revive and restore my love of The Lord that I first had at my conversion. It did this by bringing my attention back to Christ and Him alone. I hope my restored love is genuine and not some type of fakery. I will also miss what we call The Lord's Table Meeting (TLTM) where I could express and pour out my love to Him by singing and prayers. For those of you who have left TLR how were you able to continue this type of corporate worship? Also, for those of you who had the same experience of recovering your first love for The Lord do you feel it was genuine and how did you continue to cultivate this after leaving TLR?

Hello HERn. The answer is yes! I left TLR appr. 2-3 years ago.(The reason being that they made oneness a dividing factor. (They are right and most, if not all, other Christians are wrong, they claim). It goes without saying this is not healthy. 1 Cor 13:9. We need each other. That is the brute fact. We might not like it. But if my neighbour is a Catholic, and my other neighbour is a baptist, and they confess Jesus as God and Lord, I need them, just as they need me. After I left, I prayed somewhat loosely, yet I made lots of new Christian friends. I stick with them. Some of them dont have lots of bible knowledge, but they are seeking for the Lord - and when we gather, God`s presence is there in our weakness. We have this treasure in earthen vessels, or maybe, in broken vessels :P I had to let go of alot of the Recovery doctrines. But I still hold on to the good stuff. Witness Lees system has some bones I had to throw out. But he was also right in many things. My position now is this: The Lord always places Himself with those who are humble and weak. If you acknowledge you are that one, you will be so blessed! We are called to live in the song of songs. Discovering who He is and who we are. But surely, we are not called to live in Witness Lees song of songs. We have to be in our own journey with Him

[OBW]

Originally Posted by googlelight

. . . they made oneness a dividing factor.

Need we say more?

Back to the start of the thread (and probably repeating myself years later), throw it all out. I don't mean to not believe in Christ. I am not saying that there is nothing right/correct in LC teaching. But to the extent it is there, it is encapsulated within lies, false teachings, and deception. To the extent that you are in any way unsure that it is good teaching, you should seek confirmation from a source wholly unconnected with and unpromoted by the LC. I recommend no singular source. And I dismiss few (only the LC and others like them that declare theirs the only way, and their interpretations and teachings to be uniquely correct).

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by OBW

Need we say more?

Back to the start of the thread (and probably repeating myself years later), throw it all out. I don't mean to not believe in Christ. I am not saying that there is nothing right/correct in LC teaching. But to the extent it is there, it is encapsulated within lies, false teachings, and deception. To the extent that you are in any way unsure that it is good teaching, you should seek confirmation from a source wholly unconnected with and unpromoted by the LC. I recommend no singular source. And I dismiss few (only the LC and others like them that declare theirs the only way, and their interpretations and teachings to be uniquely correct).

After reading & hearing recently what R. Kangas had to say in 2007: "The body is the Father" (on another recent thread posting), I'm inclined to agree! I think that kind of nonsense is a full manifestation of not adhering to the word properly and going fully off into left field!

So we love the saints in the system, but hate the enslaving system they're in.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

After reading & hearing recently what R. Kangas had to say in 2007: "The body is the Father" (on another recent thread posting), I'm inclined to agree!

Yes, I saw that too. Felt a little like the AFLAC duck listening to Yogi Berra in the barbershop, speaking in such circles that the duck was dumbfounded and couldn't even get a weak "AFLAC!" out.

It was a healthy dose of just such nonsense that had many of us thinking we were the best thing since sliced bread just because we could make such unique statements about so many things. Reminds me that several years ago one of my nephews made some comment to the effect that saying it better made the experience better. I asked him point-blank if he really believed that and he was absolutley sure of it. We kind of agreed to do a real serious "debate" to flesh-out such an idea, but I never heard back from him even after setting up a private blog in which we could undertake the process without a bunch of pretentious onlookers muddying the discussion.

Oh to be young and so much smarter than all those old people whose minds have gone to mush (like they must have thought about mine).

I somewhat miss the real theological discussions that used to go on here. But even when they did, there were always too many people who jumped past real discussion to some conclusion and were ready to get out the tar and feathers for someone. One of the reasons you don't see so much of me anymore. Despite some family still there, I have so little connection to them since we left in '87 that most of the current "social" issues are not as relevant to me.

[HERn]

I think I should throw out the concept that WL’s motive for ministry was to help Christians understand the Bible. I came to this conclusion just today after reading the following comment a friend had written in the margin of a book he gave me.

“There are those who fervently study the Bible coming at it with a theory to prove. If we approach the Bible in this manner then everything we read is controlled by it.”

I believe WL’s motive for ministry was to propagate whatever “controlling vision” he divined. How many “controlling visions” did the man have?

This comment came from a 90 year old brother who spent his life living with and translating the Bible into a local native language in Bolivia. The book was “Studies in the Sermon on the Mount”, by D. Martin Lloyd-Jones.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

After reading & hearing recently what R. Kangas had to say in 2007: "The body is the Father" (on another recent thread posting), I'm inclined to agree! I think that kind of nonsense is a full manifestation of not adhering to the word properly and going fully off into left field!

So we love the saints in the system, but hate the enslaving system they're in.

Sorry for the late reply, but does anyone have a link to the quote by Kangas that "the body is the Father"? If the quote is accurate I think its obviously heretical. I did a search on the phrase "the body is the father" and found an interesting quote by Edgar Cayce where he used that same phrase. In this quote Cayce is referring to the body being the human body (I believe). Cayce was a renowned clairvoyant and occultist, who I think was a false prophet.

To me it's interesting that the Chief Theology Officer of LSM would use those exact words.

Following is Cayce's quote:

"As we live and move and have our being in Him, so He is the supply…..whether it be material, mental or spiritual. For these are the representations of the Godhead within the awareness or consciousness of the individual, - the Body is the Father, the Mind is the Christ, or son, the Soul is the Holy Spirit through which all approach is made. For even as the Spirit moved, matter came into being. So as the Mind became the way, the truth, the light in materiality, - as we apply same in our experiences day by day we become aware of His Presence."

Source:

https://www.atlanticuniv.edu/media/5...elingasfg1.pdf

Scroll to page 106.

Title of source:

Bible Study Paralleling Search For God
I Study Group Lesson on “In His Presence” and the
14th Chapter of John Verses 1 through 21

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by HERn

Sorry for the late reply, but does anyone have a link to the quote by Kangas that "the body is the Father"? If the quote is accurate I think its obviously heretical.

Here is the thread on "the body is the Father".....see post #4 on that thread for the transcription.

https://localchurchdiscussions.com/v...ead.php?t=6847

There used to be videos online so you could actually see/hear Ron saying it, but the links on the thread are no longer valid.

Trapped