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04-15-2019, 03:53 AM | #1 |
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Greetings from an LC member!
Greetings saints,
Long time lurker, and I mean a very long time on this forum. I am still an LC member but have been interested in the history of the Lord's recovery. From reading all these posts on the forum, I realised that there seems to be two perspectives on what happened in the history, which have brought confusion, especially to me. Yet, what's done has been done and it can never changed. All we can do now is move on and if there has been some wrongdoing on both sides, I really pray there can be reconciliation, so we all can get on with doing the Lord's work. My experience being in the LC have been overwhelmingly positive. There is a real sense of brotherly love and the desire to be built up together and enjoy the Lord together, we are encouraged to read the Word (any Bible version, not just the Recovery, all up to you), we read the ministry but there is no restriction on what you can read, but we are encouraged to compare everything to scripture. The only fault I would say could be that some saints can become overly zealous, especially towards the ministry, which can be off putting to some. I understand some members here have negative experiences in the LC which have caused them to doubt or even leave, but this is just my experience where ever I went. Maybe the attitudes have changed a little, if not among those up there, then among the common LC people, or if not, then in my particular locality? But I know that for some members back in those days, there was the real and sweet enjoyment of the Lord. For those who fall in that category (old that is ), I want to know what it was like, and what happened in history that caused all this to change? The history seems to cause contention for some reason, but I want to understand why it is so (admittingly, the LC history is a small stumbling block for me). Also, if anyone has a recording/audio of Witness Lee's final message before he went to the Lord, can you link it to me or send it to me? I read a post on here about how the literal transcript and the edited transcript seem to give completely different ideas. I want to hear it myself. Chinese or English dubbed are fine, I understand both. Much blessings to everyone. I might become more of a lurker than a poster but we will see. God bless! |
04-15-2019, 04:59 AM | #2 |
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Re: Greetings from an LC member!
Welcome to the forum Trusting!
Which part of LC history seems to be a "small stumbling block" for you? There have been a number of times in LC history where the actual story completely contradicted the published story. Like you, I have always tried to differentiate between the precious saints in the LC's and the damaging actions of their leaders, especially at LSM.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
04-15-2019, 07:26 AM | #3 | |
Οὕτως γὰρ ἠγάπησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν κόσμον For God So Loved The World
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Re: Greetings from an LC member!
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Here is what I believe to be a video of the message in question. Lee is speaking in Chinese. It is 6 minutes long. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83oQlzUQmcU Here is a polemic paper posted on the www.concernedbrothers.com website http://www.concernedbrothers.com/rep...edTheMark4.pdf Trusting, Most of the forum members here do not speak or understand Chinese. Please feel free to listen to this video and then give us your take/understanding of just exactly what Witness Lee said. -
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04-15-2019, 09:30 AM | #4 |
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Re: Greetings from an LC member!
Hello Trusting!
Here is a translation into English from the Spanish of the message given by Witness Lee which UntoHim referenced. This is where he repents for condemning those outside of the LCs. The third part of the message is about reigning in life and imitating the apostles. Listen. We must imitate the apostles and follow in their steps to bring churches of different localities into the fellowship of the Body, and bring all the saints into the unity of the Body of Christ. |
04-15-2019, 09:41 AM | #5 |
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Re: Greetings from an LC member!
Welcome, Trusting! I hope you find some answers here, as well as fellowship. I relate to your experience, as I was in the same place as you in the past. I would just say that your assessments of the LC come across to me as a bit too rosy. For example, you say, "we read the ministry but there is no restriction on what you can read." I know that LC members like to repeat assertions like this. But what would actually happen if you actually did read ministry from other writers? What if you were to share from other teachers in a meeting, or suggested reading a book in a home meeting, etc.? What would happen? If you are honest with yourself, you would have to admit that the answer indicates there is restriction.
Also a fellow Chinese/English-speaker here. If you go to the recording that others have shared, you will find the audio quite clear. At the 2:28 mark, brother Lee says, "I hurt people" (我疼人). And, "I had a very painful repentance" (有很疼敷的悔改), "Now, I'm sorry, now I'm sorry to the body of Christ" (现在对不起, 现在对不起基督身体). I don't have time right now to transcribe the whole thing (and I believe there is some kind of comparison out there, comparing the published version with the actual spoken statement), but brother Lee clearly remorse over divisiveness toward other believers. Let us know if you have any thoughts after listening to the audio. |
04-15-2019, 04:02 PM | #6 | ||
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Re: Greetings from an LC member!
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And this is not some temporary hobby of Paul's, without wider meaning: look at the end of the Bible, where the Gentiles (Gk, 'ethnoi', or nations) walk in the light of the NJ and their kings bring 'glory' into it (Rev 21:24,26). WL thought these were unbelievers (!!) who somehow made it through both the tribulation and the Great White Throne (!!!) and now had eternal life (!!!) outside the NJ. Now, I know the thread's focus is Witness Lee's last published thoughts. We're not here suggesting to send $$ to the poor of Jerusalem (though we don't discourage it either); rather to show how easily scripture can be de-contextualised and re-appropriated for ignorant and selfish ends. If the believing Gentiles were received by the Jews (through Paul'sministry), they should receive one another, and receive the Jews (via gifts and supporting Paul). That's the point of Rom 15 and WL was repenting that he'd mis-aimed and caused harm. But his follower RK told us with a stout face that he wasn't going to build any bridges to "the denominations". Yet Paul was doing nothing there but building them! Yet RK wanted what WL called "the guilt of division" to be shoveled high, to be a yawning gap between "the recovery" and fellow believers. To say nothing of the Gentiles and the Jews, Paul's original topic! How did we get so far from God's revealed intent and good pleasure? Is the Bible now so passe, so outdated, that we re-invent it thus? Or were Paul (and John) so off the mark that they had to be re-interpreted so imaginatively?
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04-16-2019, 03:17 AM | #7 | |||
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Re: Greetings from an LC member!
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On a side note, I mentioned it before, but I am interesting in hearing stories from the oldies (if I can say that) about the good old days, the really enjoyable and on fire times that were had in the Lord's recovery, then what changed. Much grace to all! |
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04-16-2019, 04:40 AM | #8 |
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Re: Greetings from an LC member!
I actually see no bearing fruit of genuine repentance from Lee's mistake until now. It's only gotten worse, especially the LC leaders who incited a spirit of condemnation towards denominations. This instance is not only happening in my locality, but I have witnessed to it several times from other localities as well. The matter of reading other ministries is unfortunately restricted tho, but only in the parameters of LSM publications.
I have never seen in any LC Facebook groups where LCers posted posts from other ministries.
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If there is anything that the people of our day need to realize, it is these very words of Jonah, simple yet neglected: “Salvation is of the LORD.” |
04-16-2019, 06:28 AM | #9 | |||
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Re: Greetings from an LC member!
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It's easy to dismiss the pain of others when you are not in pain yourself. Yet you have "a real sense of brotherly love" and "a desire to be built up together"! What's wrong with this picture? Quote:
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Previously, what was spoken and what I heard was "truth" and truth has a "ring". What changed? The speaking in the meetings became Lee's ministry and no longer had the ring of truth in the Word. Yet we were taught to testify and pretend otherwise...sweet and enjoyable were the words they used. Regardless, it ended. Lee was elevated above the Word and took credit for having the goods. Lee's ministry did not have "truth" at its heart. No more "ring". I know this because after years of questioning, I remembered what I heard in the days of truth, and there was a contrast. Lee was saying something different. I chose to stand with the truth that I had heard, learned and experienced. Lee's ministry was full of discourse, rules and regulations, which the leadership hammered us with and openly taught...did not exist. This brought in the days of "unwritten rules" and a warning not to break the rules that did not exist. Some of the rules:
I'm sure others can add to this list. I don't know why you want to hear Lee's words renouncing his own practices/ministry, but if you need to "hear it from him" but disregard the fruit of his ministry...to tell those he hurt to "move on", etc., I think that's a problem. Nell |
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04-16-2019, 07:40 AM | #10 | |
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Re: Greetings from an LC member!
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04-16-2019, 08:53 AM | #11 |
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Re: Greetings from an LC member!
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04-16-2019, 10:23 AM | #12 |
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Re: Greetings from an LC member!
Trusting,
The fact is the LR has a very muddled relationship with true oneness. True oneness means receiving every believer according to Christ without doubt or disputations. The LR has gone beyond what the word teaches in establishing its sectarian view on oneness. Members such as yourself can seen the duplicity, but are (understandably) ambivalent about what to do about it. One the one hand, you enjoy your church life, on the other hand, you see the hypocrisy. If your leaders were honest and forthright and led according to the New Testament, they would humbly go out of their way to answer all public questions about the movement's highly suspicious history of sectarian and abusive practices. But they are nothing like this. They have two-faces (at least). One which preaches mushy platitudes about oneness and receiving, and another which ruthlessly deals with anyone who rocks their boat. I tremble for those brothers when I think about what the Lord will say to them. Many Catholics enjoy blessing in their individual churches. I have attended Catholic services where I sensed the presence of the Lord. But none of that excuses the history of Catholic leadership denying and covering up their sins at the expense of the victims. The same goes for the LR. |
04-16-2019, 12:48 PM | #13 | |
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Re: Greetings from an LC member!
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1. "Brother Lee's repentance for his offense to the Body of Christ - the differences between the transcription, the polished transcription, the printed version, and its interpretation."
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04-17-2019, 08:42 AM | #14 |
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Re: Greetings from an LC member!
I can't read Chinese, but the English-writing brother still didn't get it. Division is wrong, period, and the LR was just as guilty of it as anyone and more guilty than most. That's what Lee was beginning to see.
Lee was actually fudging a bit. He knew the Lord had convicted him of being divisive, but there was still a part in him that wanted to justify his prior attitude and behavior. So he mentioned that denominations are wrong and condemned. This is sort of like saying that the driver you beat up for cutting you off was wrong to cut you off. It's true but misleading. I think if Lee had lived he might have had a fuller repentance and given a more clear message in English. Perhaps the BBs limited him for fear of this. It does seem his encounter with cancer and mortality humbled him a bit. |
04-17-2019, 09:34 AM | #15 |
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Re: Greetings from an LC member!
From the paper by "Sober Mind" ...
"(Concerning the matter of receiving people according to God),...we co-workers in every place all need to learn, the responsible ones in every place all need to learn, the brothers and sisters in every place all need to learn..., too many things cause us to learn. We all made mistakes in this matter in the past, I myself included;" -- From Witness Lee's last message.If this was supposed to be a repentance, it really disturbs me. What does it mean, "the matter of receiving people according to God?" Sounds to me like someone knocked on his front door, and he was too busy for them. Not so serious. I've done that too. I treat telemarketeers the same way. Is "receiving people" supposed to be "mistreating people?" In this I would include public shaming, using partiality and prejudice, even slander and libel, fabricating falsehoods, allowing his boys to abuse others, etc. Then Witness Lee says, "we all need to learn." If we all learned bad habits from WL, should he not repent for teaching us wrongly? WL loved to take credit for all of our good, but concerning the bad, we then need to share in his mistakes? When the man of the house really screws up, do the children also need to repent? I seem to remember many, many times Titus Chu and other Midwest brothers trying to correct some of Lee's bad habits and teachings before they reached the area LC's. This was a very dangerous enterprise, since many "spies" reported this, Lee took it personally, and often retaliated against TC publicly. I should note that TC never picked up WL's nasty habit of bashing all Christianity. (TC bashed his own people, but that's beside the point.) Should TC and the rest of the Midwest then share in Lee's remorse, knowing that to some degree we tried to "correct" him?
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
04-17-2019, 11:07 AM | #16 | |
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Re: Greetings from an LC member!
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Unique status brings unique privileges, which in spiritual matters almost never produces good fruit. That's one reason why God doesn't give anyone or anything unique status, which is one reason "the Recovery" is in principle invalid. On that stage was actually a confused person, caught between conscience and perceived mission, mortality and greatness, simplicity and complication. |
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