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Old 02-24-2020, 04:02 PM   #1
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Default There Are No Overcomers Outside of the Local Church, What a Stupid Claim.

I heard this stupid claim from an elder in a meeting. Claiming that there's no overcomers outside of the LC is insane and it's despising to the Holy Spirit. How dare a member of a group defile the rest in other groups? There are more than 99% of Christians outside of the LC.

To me denominations are necessary, you can't fit everyone into one single system. If a believer can't digest LSM teaching then let them go. In term of function some people are good at different things and they have the right to choose to serve God in different areas. In the LC, if you can't shout loud enough in the meeting, you're 'less useful', then what you got from your elders's advice? You need to exercise your spirit!

If you're good in making movies I don't think you feel comfortable being in the LC, because it's so worldly and useless in serving there.
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Old 02-24-2020, 06:30 PM   #2
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Default Re: There Are No Overcomers Outside of the Local Church, What a Stupid Clai

I agree with you that denominations are important. One reason is to decentralise the power so no leader rises up like a pope and becomes the 'grand high pumba' of all.

It also covers many different types of ministry that God might be achieving in the world. Too many different areas of focus for one organisation to handle. Sometimes these different ministries judge and condemn each other, being limited in their understanding and paradigm. But many just accept this happily and warmly accept the variety within. And happily back and support each other. Why not? That all makes sense to me and you and is an easy conclusion to reach when love for all is one's motivation I think.
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Old 02-24-2020, 07:17 PM   #3
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Default Re: There Are No Overcomers Outside of the Local Church, What a Stupid Clai

It is a stupid claim. I see lots of beautiful believers filled will faith in Jesus all over, totally unrelated to the Local Church.
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Old 02-24-2020, 08:20 PM   #4
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Default Re: There Are No Overcomers Outside of the Local Church, What a Stupid Clai

When they make these kinds of claims, the burden of proof lies with the one making the claim. They get away with it because people in the LC are scared to question anything.

Part of the danger with what Nee/Lee taught is that although there may have been some about of truth to what was said, they never recognized the inevitability of denominations or any other thing/issue that they criticized. A good point is made here about not being able to fit everyone into a single system.

What the LC did was to develop there own ideal about how things should be. Then they attacked other groups for not matching this ideal. Meanwhile it was okay for the LC to not measure up, because they deemed themselves to be the sole group pursuing that ideal.
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Old 03-03-2020, 08:22 AM   #5
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Default Re: There Are No Overcomers Outside of the Local Church, What a Stupid Clai

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I heard this stupid claim from an elder in a meeting. Claiming that there's no overcomers outside of the LC is insane and it's despising to the Holy Spirit. How dare a member of a group defile the rest in other groups? There are more than 99% of Christians outside of the LC.

To me denominations are necessary, you can't fit everyone into one single system. If a believer can't digest LSM teaching then let them go. In term of function some people are good at different things and they have the right to choose to serve God in different areas. In the LC, if you can't shout loud enough in the meeting, you're 'less useful', then what you got from your elders's advice? You need to exercise your spirit!

If you're good in making movies I don't think you feel comfortable being in the LC, because it's so worldly and useless in serving there.
The LCs get a lot right, but like everyone else with a flesh, they also get a lot wrong! This fleshly, elitist idea that overcomers are only in the LC is strong evidence of Laodicea. Lord have mercy on us all and open our eyes!
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Old 03-03-2020, 08:43 AM   #6
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Default Re: There Are No Overcomers Outside of the Local Church, What a Stupid Clai

Not surprising coming from a group whose leaders claim that the only place on earth that a Christian can enter the process of sanctification is in their tiny, little sect. All others are spiritually bankrupt. Very heretical. Very dangerous. Vary sad.

“In any case, do not leave the Lord’s recovery. I can assure you that if you go away from the Lord’s recovery, you will have no way for the process of sanctification to go forward within you. Instead, you will just enter into a bankrupt situation. I know of no one who has left the Lord’s recovery and today is a great spiritual person on the earth. The sanctification process is carried out in the Lord’s recovery
(The Ministry Magazine Vol. 8, No. 1 Page 189, first paragraph - emphasis mine)
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Old 03-03-2020, 10:05 AM   #7
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Default Re: There Are No Overcomers Outside of the Local Church, What a Stupid Clai

Curious - what was the date on that?-
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Old 03-03-2020, 12:02 PM   #8
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Default Re: There Are No Overcomers Outside of the Local Church, What a Stupid Clai

The date of publication is January 2004
This particular publication covers the 12 messages given at the "2003 Winter Training" - "Crystallization-study of Galatians". This little nugget of truth from Benson was apparently delivered in "message 8".

Lest any out there are wondering about the context in which this quote was made, well, let me just say that the overall context in which this is found is just as horrific as the quote itself. Benson likens the "rebellions" in the Local Church of Witness Lee to Armageddon, and then likens those who rebel against Witness Lee and his silly little sect to be as those who rebel against Christ at the end of the Millennium. God have mercy.
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Old 03-03-2020, 12:23 PM   #9
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Default Re: There Are No Overcomers Outside of the Local Church, What a Stupid Clai

Thanks. So we've heard there are no overcomers outside The Recovery, but this takes it even further to say that it applies to sanctification too! Oh my. What's next - that no one is even regenerated outside The Recovery!?

Here's my suggestion to the LC leadership: Go right now and have signs made that say "The Church of Laodicea." (Is that saying too much or being too brazen?)
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Old 03-03-2020, 12:51 PM   #10
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Default Re: There Are No Overcomers Outside of the Local Church, What a Stupid Clai

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Originally Posted by Sons to Glory! View Post
The LCs get a lot right, but like everyone else with a flesh, they also get a lot wrong! This fleshly, elitist idea that overcomers are only in the LC is strong evidence of Laodicea. Lord have mercy on us all and open our eyes!
This nonsense came from LSM. Noone in a LC is permitted to or would dare to say something as stupid as this.

The ratio of "getting it right" over "getting it wrong" at LSM has seriously dropped over the past half century.

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Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
The date of publication is January 2004
This particular publication covers the 12 messages given at the "2003 Winter Training" - "Crystallization-study of Galatians". This little nugget of truth from Benson was apparently delivered in "message 8".

Lest any out there are wondering about the context in which this quote was made, well, let me just say that the overall context in which this is found is just as horrific as the quote itself. Benson likens the "rebellions" in the Local Church of Witness Lee to Armageddon, and then likens those who rebel against Witness Lee and his silly little sect to be as those who rebel against Christ at the end of the Millennium. God have mercy.
Stupidest thing I've ever heard. Benson Phillips sent his goons into the Midwest to steal, kill, and destroy local churches by stirring up certain rabid locals to disrupt the Table meetings and training them to file lawsuits. And we rebelled against Christ????

The Bible says to beware of Judaizers, beware of dogs, beware of these supposed super-apostles, beware of false prophets.

There's really not much difference between Benson Philips and the guy he replaced as head of LSM -- Philip Lee.
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Old 03-03-2020, 02:00 PM   #11
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Default Re: There Are No Overcomers Outside of the Local Church, What a Stupid Clai

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This nonsense came from LSM. Noone in a LC is permitted to or would dare to say something as stupid as this.
Please clarify - what would a LC person not be permitted to or dare say?
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Old 03-04-2020, 05:42 AM   #12
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Default Re: There Are No Overcomers Outside of the Local Church, What a Stupid Clai

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The date of publication is January 2004This particular publication covers the 12 messages given at the "2003 Winter Training" - "Crystallization-study of Galatians". This little nugget of truth from Benson was apparently delivered in "message 8".
Do you have a link to the audio/video? I looked and can't find one.
Thanks.
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Old 03-04-2020, 07:25 AM   #13
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Default Re: There Are No Overcomers Outside of the Local Church, What a Stupid Clai

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Please clarify - what would a LC person not be permitted to or dare say?
What Benson said.

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Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith View Post
Do you have a link to the audio/video? I looked and can't find one.
Thanks.
If any audio still exists, it is now buried deep within the LSM archives, along with all the other heretical and absurd things uttered by Witness Lee and those influenced by him. Besides, the audio is probably worse.
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Old 03-04-2020, 12:00 PM   #14
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If any audio still exists, it is now buried deep within the LSM archives, along with all the other heretical and absurd things uttered by Witness Lee and those influenced by him. Besides, the audio is probably worse.
It certainly is buried. Being able to actually hear Benson say those things might start a lot of people thinking about their place among believers. If anyone has a link....��
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Old 03-04-2020, 11:12 PM   #15
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Default Re: There Are No Overcomers Outside of the Local Church, What a Stupid Clai

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Originally Posted by BensonPhillips View Post
“In any case, do not leave the Lord’s recovery. I can assure you that if you go away from the Lord’s recovery, you will have no way for the process of sanctification to go forward within you. Instead, you will just enter into a bankrupt situation. I know of no one who has left the Lord’s recovery and today is a great spiritual person on the earth. The sanctification process is carried out in the Lord’s recovery
(The Ministry Magazine Vol. 8, No. 1 Page 189, first paragraph - emphasis mine)
This is a curse. It’s both a threat and a curse.

In Numbers 20 Moses called the Children of Israel “rebels”, and struck the rock instead of speaking to the rock as God told him to do. For this, he was not allowed to enter the promised land. God never called the people “rebels” but Moses did. Moses led the people to believe that God called them rebels when He did not. Moses did not separate (sanctify) his own words from the words actually spoken by God.

12 And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

This was shared by Witness Lee in a “Life Study” somewhere, yet both Lee and the LSM/LC leadership ignore the warning.

God never said the people were not rebellious, but their rebellion was not against Moses. Their rebellion was against God. Yet God gave them water to drink anyway. God told Moses to speak to the rock, but instead, Moses himself rebelled and struck the rock, but the water flowed anyway. It seems to be a serious matter to speak something to God’s people and imply that your words are the words of God. Moses suffered great loss for what he did.

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Old 03-05-2020, 11:45 AM   #16
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Default Re: There Are No Overcomers Outside of the Local Church, What a Stupid Clai

So I wonder what other exclusive claims could be made by the LC . . .

LC people are (supposedly) the only ones that know:
  • We have a human spirit
  • Christ lives in us
  • That we can eat and drink Jesus
  • For us to live is Christ
  • About calling on the name of the Lord
  • Now the Lord is the Spirit
  • We are the dwelling place of God in spirit
  • We are His body, bride and building
  • The blessings of oneness
What other things are there that only the LC people think they know, see or experience?
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Old 03-06-2020, 07:37 AM   #17
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Default Re: There Are No Overcomers Outside of the Local Church, What a Stupid Clai

*The Bible says there is something called the spirit. No need for Local Churchers to claim it for themselves.
*The Bible says Christ lives in us. The Christian church has taught and proclaimed this fact for about 2,000 years now.
*The Bible says people "called on the Lord" in the Old Testament. Was David yelling out "ooooooohhhhh Lllllloooooorrrrd Jeeeeeeesus"? kind of doubtful. There is absolutely no evidence that the earliest of Christians did this either.
*The Lord Jesus said "unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you"...was he referring to "enjoying the ministry" of some man? Kind of doubtful.
*Now the Lord is the Spirit. Lee taught that this confirmed his off-the-wall teaching that the 2nd Person of the Godhead became the 3rd Person. No accepted, reputable, orthodox teacher, scholar or apologist has ever taught such a thing. Nuff said.
*We are the dwelling place of God in spirit. Well, the Bible doesn't put it this way...but even if it did, for some little, obscure sect to claim that this is some truth that they alone "recovered" is laughable.
*We are his body, bride and building. Right. The Bibles says this. Good job Local Churchers! We now know that you can read! So does the vast majority of the rest of the Christian Church.
*The blessings of oneness. The problem with this one is that when Local Churchers say this they mean oneness WITH THEM, and with the person and work of Witness Lee. They would do us all a big favor by keeping this "blessing" to themselves, thank you very much.
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Old 03-06-2020, 07:47 AM   #18
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Default Re: There Are No Overcomers Outside of the Local Church, What a Stupid Clai

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*We are the dwelling place of God in spirit. Well, the Bible doesn't put it this way...
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Ephesians 2:22 says "in whom you also are being built together into a dwelling place of God in Spirit." (FYI - In Greek the article "the" before Spirit is not there)

And, to perhaps balance things a little, I have to add that I personally hear little in Christendom about much of what I posted. I do hear much about how Christ was a great model for us to follow, but little about how He lives in us to live through us daily. A devotional I read a couple days ago put it like this: "By observing the Lord's life on earth, we can become more familiar with the Lord's life in us. His life lived out in the gospels is what is now being reproduced in us by His indwelling." I long to hear more of that by radio and TV preachers, and groups I visit!
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Old 03-06-2020, 08:58 AM   #19
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Default Re: There Are No Overcomers Outside of the Local Church, What a Stupid Clai

Sons to Glory!
I noticed that you have now switched from "in spirit" to "in Spirit". Are you aware that all the major, reputable and widely accepted translations capitalize Spirit? Are you also aware that the Recovery Version is only version (that I know of) that translates "in spirit". Of course I'm sure that you are aware of the reason that Witness Lee influenced the RecVer translators to use a lower case s - this matches his teaching that the apostle Paul was referring to the human spirit, and not the Holy Spirit. The vast majority of the scholars who translated all the widely accepted versions confirm the traditional understanding and teaching that this is referring to the Holy Spirit. (the article being present or absent is of no import here whatsoever) My point that "the Bible doesn't put it this way" stands.


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...I personally hear little in Christendom about much of what I posted. I do hear much about how Christ was a great model for us to follow, but little about how He lives in us to live through us daily.
I don't mean to offend you my brother, but this smacks heavily of Local Church lingo. I do give you big credit for at least adding "I personally" - in so doing admit that you are not omnipresent, and have a firm grasp of what is taught in all of "Christendom" in all of time and in every place (as was done by Mr. Witness Lee) This being said, I have just the opposite experience - this notion of "Christ living in us to live through us daily" is a very common theme among the teachers and preachers I hear. Maybe it is not enunciated with the exact verbiage as in the Local Church, but the general theme is the same. I think you are listening to the wrong guys, bro! In any event, may the Lord continue to enlighten and encourage you as you seek him and his truth.
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Old 03-06-2020, 10:15 AM   #20
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Default Re: There Are No Overcomers Outside of the Local Church, What a Stupid Clai

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Sons to Glory!
I noticed that you have now switched from "in spirit" to "in Spirit". Are you aware that all the major, reputable and widely accepted translations capitalize Spirit? Are you also aware that the Recovery Version is only version (that I know of) that translates "in spirit". Of course I'm sure that you are aware of the reason that Witness Lee influenced the RecVer translators to use a lower case s - this matches his teaching that the apostle Paul was referring to the human spirit, and not the Holy Spirit. The vast majority of the scholars who translated all the widely accepted versions confirm the traditional understanding and teaching that this is referring to the Holy Spirit. (the article being present or absent is of no import here whatsoever) My point that "the Bible doesn't put it this way" stands.




I don't mean to offend you my brother, but this smacks heavily of Local Church lingo. I do give you big credit for at least adding "I personally" - in so doing admit that you are not omnipresent, and have a firm grasp of what is taught in all of "Christendom" in all of time and in every place (as was done by Mr. Witness Lee) This being said, I have just the opposite experience - this notion of "Christ living in us to live through us daily" is a very common theme among the teachers and preachers I hear. Maybe it is not enunciated with the exact verbiage as in the Local Church, but the general theme is the same. I think you are listening to the wrong guys, bro! In any event, may the Lord continue to enlighten and encourage you as you seek him and his truth.
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Oh, I didn't know that you were referring to the capitalization thingie. Hard to determine, however, as said, my Greek text doesn't put the article "the" in there before Spirit, so . . .

Regarding the other, people on here get all spun up about if any small thing is said that Christianity lacks in, calling it "smacking of LSM" or some such thing! It's not to say I've never heard these things ever, just very rare. (Again, much more preached about Christ as the external model than the indwelling Christ.) Just calling it like I have seen it over the years . . . but I am glad you are hearing this!
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Last edited by Sons to Glory!; 03-06-2020 at 11:13 AM. Reason: clarification
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Old 03-06-2020, 10:55 AM   #21
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Default Re: There Are No Overcomers Outside of the Local Church, What a Stupid Clai

Of course, since the LC uses words differently from other Christians, a word like “overcomer” may take on a new meaning.

For example, an overcomer is someone who only read the Recovery Version of the Bible, or only reads “the Ministry”, etc.. The statement “there are no overcomers outside of the Local Church” is “true”, but only because no one outside the Local Church reads the Recovery Version of the Bible or Witness Lee. So how do you define “overcomer?”

Using words the way he/they do, Lee’s “ministry” developed a “language” that amounted to a big word game. Remember all those “Experiencing Christ in the Stage of Intensification as the Sevenfold Intensified Life-giving all inclusive seven Spirits of God which are the seven lamps of fire burning before the administrating throne of God” type banners that wrapped around the room? Does anyone know what all that means? Word games.

In fact, is the word “overcomer” even in the Bible? Overcome certainly is, but is there a difference in meaning between “him that overcomes” and “overcomer”? Lee implied that “overcomer” was “corporate”. “To him that overcomes” implies individual.

Not sure, but I think we need to define “overcomer”.

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