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Old 04-30-2012, 08:13 AM   #1
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Default Leaving the LRC has consequences....

I know I have read it here, but after a search I haven't been able to find it...
Someone or perhaps multiple people have claimed that if you leave the LRC for whatever reason there will be consequences (poor health, inability to go on with the Lord, to grow spiritually, etc). Can anyone point me to an exact quote? I am thinking specifically about the physical/health consequences, but any examples are welcome. I am still in the LRC and have never heard such things...
Thanks.
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Old 04-30-2012, 01:59 PM   #2
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Default Re: Leaving the LRC has consequences....

As far as "inability to go on with the Lord", here's a real doozy from Mr. Benson Phillips:
“In any case, do not leave the Lord’s recovery. I can assure you that if you go away from the Lord’s recovery, you will have no way for the process of sanctification to go forward within you. Instead, you will just enter into a bankrupt situation. I know of no one who has left the Lord’s recovery and today is a great spiritual person on the earth. The sanctification process is carried out in the Lord’s recovery”
(The Ministry Magazine Vol. 8, No. 1 Page 189, first paragraph)

As far as "physical/health consequences", I doubt you are going to find anything in writing and furthermore, this kind of talk was more a phenomenon back in the 70s, so you will have to look to some us oldie-but-goodie dinosaurs to confirm this.
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Old 04-30-2012, 02:16 PM   #3
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Default Re: Leaving the LRC has consequences....

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As far as "physical/health consequences", I doubt you are going to find anything in writing and furthermore, this kind of talk was more a phenomenon back in the 70s, so you will have to look to some us oldie-but-goodie dinosaurs to confirm this.
Unto is right. This was generally spoken in local meetings and maybe in regional conferences back when those were run mostly by the region rather than Anaheim (or LA before that).

And so many of the references to physical, health, or other non-spiritual issues was hemmed and hawed around. They would not assert that you would definitely get cancer and die. But they would speculate that it could have been the cause of some particular, unnamed brother from the early days getting some disease or being in a terrible accident.

Funny that it was never a reason to reconsider insiders who died in car accidents or from cancer. And there was a very dear brother in Arlington that died in a car crash many years ago. I would never suggest it was a spiritual statement about his condition with respect to Christ or the LRC.

But there was almost a hint of no surprise when the same was noted about Ransford in Ghana just two or three years back now. Since he had gone off with those who rejected the LSM edicts, it was not expected or declared to be so, but I could see the gears moving to classify it as evidence of the warning to stay in the LRC.

But I'm sure that the most you will find in the online LSM, if anything, will be a very nuanced hint at the possibility that there might be a slight chance of possibly . . .

You get the idea. It is not in writing. And Unto is right that even what those of us from much earlier days can tell you is vague and general. Nothing specific or definitive.
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Old 04-30-2012, 02:18 PM   #4
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Default Re: Leaving the LRC has consequences....

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Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
I know I have read it here, but after a search I haven't been able to find it...
Someone or perhaps multiple people have claimed that if you leave the LRC for whatever reason there will be consequences (poor health, inability to go on with the Lord, to grow spiritually, etc). Can anyone point me to an exact quote? I am thinking specifically about the physical/health consequences, but any examples are welcome. I am still in the LRC and have never heard such things...
Thanks.
I heard this from RG. BTW I left the LRC 14 years ago (cough, cough) and am just barely hanging on (cough, cough).
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Old 04-30-2012, 05:26 PM   #5
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Default Re: Leaving the LRC has consequences....

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As far as "inability to go on with the Lord", here's a real doozy from Mr. Benson Phillips:
ďIn any case, do not leave the Lordís recovery. I can assure you that if you go away from the Lordís recovery, you will have no way for the process of sanctification to go forward within you. Instead, you will just enter into a bankrupt situation. I know of no one who has left the Lordís recovery and today is a great spiritual person on the earth. The sanctification process is carried out in the Lordís recoveryĒ
(The Ministry Magazine Vol. 8, No. 1 Page 189, first paragraph)
Lots of this stuff was edited out of the spoken ministry when published.

I was definitely held by fear of God's judgment based on all I was taught in the LC. Actually it was the departure of two well-respected brothers which released me from the bondage. I figured since God did not judge them, nor withdraw His presence, then the fear was not real.

After we left, most of us felt there was some "Toto" in our lives, which exposed the manipulating "Wizard" behind the curtain.
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Old 04-30-2012, 08:07 PM   #6
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Default Re: Leaving the LRC has consequences....

Thanks all. As I said, I am still in the LRC (whatever that means) and have never heard such things. I can't say I was surprised to hear the bits about not being able to go on with the Lord, but I was surprised to hear about the alleged health ramifications. It seems pretty untenable a claim and is understandable that it was made more locally by few rather than across the board. It's still sad though as I am sure it affected many. Thanks for the responses.
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Old 05-01-2012, 08:39 AM   #7
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Default Re: Leaving the LRC has consequences....

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Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
As far as "inability to go on with the Lord", here's a real doozy from Mr. Benson Phillips:
. I know of no one who has left the Lord’s recovery and today is a great spiritual person on the earth."
(The Ministry Magazine Vol. 8, No. 1 Page 189, first paragraph)
I know of no one who hasn't left the Lord's Recovery and today is a great spiritual person on the earth!

Anyway Witness Lee himself taught that if you leave the LC you will receive God's divine retribution in the form of illness, car accidents, etc. This keeps people in fear and after you leave always looking over your shoulder and wondering if something goes wrong in your life if it was because you left the LC. It takes along time for this haunting feeling to disappear.
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Old 05-02-2012, 06:46 AM   #8
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Anyway Witness Lee himself taught that if you leave the LC you will receive God's divine retribution in the form of illness, car accidents, etc.
This...saying something like this, I think, definitely needs a reference. Is there somewhere I can find this and show others, or is this just something you remember him saying/teaching? If he said it at a conference or training shouldn't it be available?

I've never been afraid to leave. I've thought of leaving. I'm figuring things out now.
Thanks
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Old 05-02-2012, 07:13 AM   #9
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Default Re: Leaving the LRC has consequences....

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This...saying something like this, I think, definitely needs a reference. Is there somewhere I can find this and show others, or is this just something you remember him saying/teaching? If he said it at a conference or training shouldn't it be available?

I've never been afraid to leave. I've thought of leaving. I'm figuring things out now.
Thanks
Yes he did teach this at conferences and he gave an example of someone who left the LC and shortly thereafter was killed in a car accident. He absolutely taught God's divine retribution for leaving the LC and also for "touching God's government" meaning him.

Whether this is currently available in print is another matter. Due to their more recent public relations attempts to make themselves appear more mainstream they might have edited it out. Regardless Benson Phillips' teaching about not being sanctified if you leave the LC is enough to give you a taste of their attitude. Their practice of calling people who leave lepers, etc. is another indicator.

If you leave quietly and are not a main "player" in the LC system they might leave you alone and just write you off as a Demas.
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Old 05-02-2012, 07:23 AM   #10
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Default Re: Leaving the LRC has consequences....

As we noted earlier:

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Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
As far as "physical/health consequences", I doubt you are going to find anything in writing and furthermore, this kind of talk was more a phenomenon back in the 70s, so you will have to look to some us oldie-but-goodie dinosaurs to confirm this.
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Unto is right. This was generally spoken in local meetings and maybe in regional conferences back when those were run mostly by the region rather than Anaheim (or LA before that).
But I'm sure that the most you will find in the online LSM, if anything, will be a very nuanced hint at the possibility that there might be a slight chance of possibly . . .
You get the idea. It is not in writing. And Unto is right that even what those of us from much earlier days can tell you is vague and general. Nothing specific or definitive.
I'm sure had there been iPhones and digital voice recorders back in the day we could provide you with the evidence you seek. However I don't think one needs to be jumping to conclusions to read Benson Phillips' quote here and assume that what was said behind closed doors could be much, much worse....and I'm here to tell you that it absolutely was. It took me YEARS to get over the psychological fear that was instilled within. Most of the older members now know that this is a kind of old wives tale...just as many current members get into car accidents and die of cancer as former members.

Of course the "cure" for this kind of nonsense, as always, is the Word of God:
And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather fear him who can destroy both soul and body in hell. Matthew 10:28
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Old 05-02-2012, 08:24 AM   #11
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Default Re: Leaving the LRC has consequences....

Another thing to realize is there is a psychological imperative to these kinds of things, too. In fact, that is the most important factor here.

If you really believe something, it tends to happen to you. If you have been programmed to believe life will be miserable when you leave the LRC, then it will be. It becomes self-fulfilling. The subconscious tends to work out what we've programmed it to believe. This can go as far as people creating "judgment" for themselves.

Believers in voodoo really believe that when the tribal witch doctor "points the bone" at them, they will die. And so it has been known to work. The power of belief can be that strong.

That's what these grave warnings from the LRC were. A bunch of voodoo.

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Old 05-02-2012, 08:47 AM   #12
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Default Re: Leaving the LRC has consequences....

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Thanks all. As I said, I am still in the LRC (whatever that means) and have never heard such things. I can't say I was surprised to hear the bits about not being able to go on with the Lord, but I was surprised to hear about the alleged health ramifications. It seems pretty untenable a claim and is understandable that it was made more locally by few rather than across the board. It's still sad though as I am sure it affected many. Thanks for the responses.
You have to understand the way it was presented to us. Someone who left the Recovery would come down with a terminal disease of some sort or some other malady would beset them. The story then would be told to us in the context of a warning, and we all "understood" the implications of the story.

If however, one of the many "faithful" brothers got sick or disaster befell his family, then we would hear how the "enemy's really attacking," and this event just proved how we alone were special to the Lord.
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Old 05-02-2012, 08:53 AM   #13
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Default Re: Leaving the LRC has consequences....

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Whether this is currently available in print is another matter. Due to their more recent public relations attempts to make themselves appear more mainstream they might have edited it out. Regardless Benson Phillips' teaching about not being sanctified if you leave the LC is enough to give you a taste of their attitude. Their practice of calling people who leave lepers, etc. is another indicator.
Is this why they never allowed tape recorders in LSM's gatherings?

This enables them to say one thing to the attendants, and then print something more "benign" for general consumption.
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Old 05-02-2012, 09:14 AM   #14
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Default Re: Leaving the LRC has consequences....

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Another thing to realize is there is a psychological imperative to these kinds of things, too. In fact, that is the most important factor here.

If you really believe something, it tends to happen to you. If you have been programmed to believe life will be miserable when you leave the LRC, then it will be. It becomes self-fulfilling. The subconscious tends to work out what we've programmed it to believe. This can go as far as people creating "judgment" for themselves.
I actually was not aware, for close to 30 years, that this kind of fear manipulation was occurring in the LC's. I was convinced that it was just "honest" warnings from the older brothers. While I was reading W.B. Neatby's "History of the Plymouth Brethren," he mentioned the use of manipulative fear as a "bugbear" for their members. What is a bugbear, I thought? As was typical of Neatby's scholarly writing, I needed to read his account accompanied with a dictionary. Many of his paragraphs I read over and over, and still could not grasp his complete thought.

Neatby exposed the fear manipulation in the Brethren writings as a "bugbear" -- an imaginary hob-goblin used to frighten children into good conduct. It was kind of like today's "bogey-man." It represents anything that causes seemingly needless fear or anxiety. When I discovered this about the Darby Brethren, I began to realize how much it had affected me in the Recovery.
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Old 05-02-2012, 10:06 AM   #15
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Default Re: Leaving the LRC has consequences....

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Neatby exposed the fear manipulation in the Brethren writings as a "bugbear" -- an imaginary hob-goblin used to frighten children into good conduct. It was kind of like today's "bogey-man." It represents anything that causes seemingly needless fear or anxiety. When I discovered this about the Darby Brethren, I began to realize how much it had affected me in the Recovery.
Yes, and fear of an imagined threat can be just as debilitating as that of a real one.

Fear tends to produce the very thing we fear. An athlete who fears losing tends to lose. A stock trader who fears losing money tends to lose money. A person who fears that he can't make friends tends to have a hard time making friends.

Fear that God is going to judge us for doing something causes in many cases for us to produce the judgment we fear. Sadly, even when the fear is baseless, we can still produce the object of our fears.

I believe this has happened many times to ex-LRCers, and ex-members of other such groups. It's psychological.
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Old 05-02-2012, 11:07 AM   #16
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Default Re: Leaving the LRC has consequences....

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Yes, and fear of an imagined threat can be just as debilitating as that of a real one.

Fear tends to produce the very thing we fear. An athlete who fears losing tends to lose. A stock trader who fears losing money tends to lose money. A person who fears that he can't make friends tends to have a hard time making friends.

Fear that God is going to judge us for doing something causes in many cases for us to produce the judgment we fear. Sadly, even when the fear is baseless, we can still produce the object of our fears.

I believe this has happened many times to ex-LRCers, and ex-members of other such groups. It's psychological.
The other day I witnessed the other end of the spectrum. Pastor was sharing the need to pay the large pending tax bill, once again using the principle of sowing seeds to reap the Lord's blessing. He guaranteed to the congregation that they will see the blessing from the Lord within 90 days, based on another pastor/bishop's word of prophecy. (Now this time was particularly troublesome for me when I realized that someone had scattered ten Ben Franklin's on the stage steps before the service even started.)

How can the Pastor's promise of a pending blessing NOT be fulfilled? Think about it. During the next 90 days you will be looking for some blessing from the Lord to reach you. It don't even have to be an answered prayed. Big blessing, small blessing, any blessing, just so it occurs before July 28.

This kind of manipulation goes on all the time in churches. Pastors use self-fulfilling fear and self-fulfilling blessing to manipulate God's children for their own selfish means, all the time convincing themselves and their flock that it is true.
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Old 05-02-2012, 12:21 PM   #17
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Regardless Benson Phillips' teaching about not being sanctified if you leave the LC is enough to give you a taste of their attitude.
And where might I find this teaching? Maybe I am coming at this particular point too late in the game. maybe they've cleaned up any untoward remarks made in the past. I am looking into this because, as I said, I am in the LC and have never heard such things before. I was recently speaking with a friend of mine (also in the LC and also considering, to some extent, his place there) about what I'd read here and he was incredulous. Does anyone remember any verses they might have tried to use to back up such teachings?
Thanks again.
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Old 05-02-2012, 01:45 PM   #18
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Fear tends to produce the very thing we fear. An athlete who fears losing tends to lose. A stock trader who fears losing money tends to lose money. A person who fears that he can't make friends tends to have a hard time making friends.

Fear that God is going to judge us for doing something causes in many cases for us to produce the judgment we fear. Sadly, even when the fear is baseless, we can still produce the object of our fears.

I believe this has happened many times to ex-LRCers, and ex-members of other such groups. It's psychological.
Yes but I also think that in the natural course of life things happen like illnesses, accidents and other negative events regardless of our psychological state. Witness Lee used the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy to connect these kind of events to leaving the LC while in fact they have nothing to do with each other.

Either he actually believed this teaching to be true or he knew it was false and was purposely using it as a scare tactic to keep people from leaving. The former means he was duped and the latter that he was insecure. But either way it demonstrates the undue importance he attached to the LC and himself
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Old 05-02-2012, 04:24 PM   #19
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Default Re: Leaving the LRC has consequences....

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Originally Posted by alwayslearning View Post
Regardless Benson Phillips' teaching about not being sanctified if you leave the LC is enough to give you a taste of their attitude.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Unregistered View Post
And where might I find this teaching? Maybe I am coming at this particular point too late in the game. maybe they've cleaned up any untoward remarks made in the past.
Let's try this again, shall we...
“In any case, do not leave the Lord’s recovery. I can assure you that if you go away from the Lord’s recovery, you will have no way for the process of sanctification to go forward within you. Instead, you will just enter into a bankrupt situation. I know of no one who has left the Lord’s recovery and today is a great spiritual person on the earth. The sanctification process is carried out in the Lord’s recovery”
(Mr. Benson Phillips - The Ministry Magazine Vol. 8, No. 1 Page 189, first paragraph)
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Old 05-02-2012, 07:08 PM   #20
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Default Re: Leaving the LRC has consequences....

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Let's try this again, shall we...
ďIn any case, do not leave the Lordís recovery. I can assure you that if you go away from the Lordís recovery, you will have no way for the process of sanctification to go forward within you. Instead, you will just enter into a bankrupt situation. I know of no one who has left the Lordís recovery and today is a great spiritual person on the earth. The sanctification process is carried out in the Lordís recoveryĒ
(Mr. Benson Phillips - The Ministry Magazine Vol. 8, No. 1 Page 189, first paragraph)
As I quote, "I know of no one who has left the Lordís recovery and today is a great spiritual person on the earth." There are several questions to be asked.
1. How would Benson know if he doesn't maintain fellowship following their separation from Living Stream Ministry and it's fellowship of churches? Does Benson check to see how John Ingalls and Bill Mallon are doing spiritually? Does Benson visit Bill Freeman to see how he's doing spiritually? There are many other gifted brothers who have left the recovery, but you get my point. Fellowship is only relative to the ministry LSM publishes.
2. What is Benson's measuremenwhat makes a great spiritual person? I believe you almost have to say this implies being ambitious to be something. Many brothers who left did not have an ambition to be something. Only to be witnesses, to minister the Word, to teach the Word, and so on. For the sake of other resources please consider these websites:

http://www.thechristian.org/
http://www.christiantapeministry.com/
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Old 05-02-2012, 08:24 PM   #21
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Let's try this again, shall we...
UntoHim, sorry. I though the other post might have been speaking about an additional teaching.
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Old 05-03-2012, 04:03 PM   #22
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Default Re: Leaving the LRC has consequences....

Oh I remember this well. Maybe it wasn't written down. But it was definitely mentioned. I remember it all. The hint of sickness, traffic accidents, never being satisfied in any other Christian gathering.

Looking back the whole thing seemed to be about control and quite a few other issues.
If you talked aloud with something that you felt was going on and it was wrong you always received a "Brother Get out of your mind and into your spirit" or "You are being toooo negative".

There was a very large amount of pressure to dress alike, talk alike and probably even walk alike(the last is a pun). The amount of pressure to follow what they said was the "lords Governance" is deplorable.

So so many things.
One in particular was their policy regarding dating.
I was actually told by an elder "Brother if you are attracted to a sister this is the one the Lord has picked for you".
That had a profound impact on my life. It resulted in a son - that I love very much . He is now 31. It also resulted in a divorce. Such a shame how people were controlled.
By those that would lord it over the Lords people and a great deal of peer pressure.

Thank goodness the Lord delivered me from that mess. My heart breaks for those stuck in the L.C..

May the Lord in His maginificant love and grace open the eyes of the brothers and sisters.

In closing
There is one more teaching I would like to point out.
I refer to it as follow you inner voices. However they called it "following the inner anointing"
"Brother you have to follow the inner anointing". Even to make simple decisions about buying clothing. I knew one poor sister that agonized over what pen the inner anointing was telling her to buy(or) not. If a brother or sister had any psychological issues this wrecked havoc with there well being and spiritual life. What an abomination that teaching was.

We are all fallen and by His sacrifice and resurrection,love,mercy and grace have we been called to salvation.
Come quickly Lord Jesus
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Old 05-08-2012, 07:53 PM   #23
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Purchasedback1,

Thanks so much for your testimony here. I got a big chuckle out of your "toooo negative" quip!

Praise God by his mercy and grace you have found your way through to the other side in one piece. Please consider contributing when and where you can find time.
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Old 05-12-2012, 02:19 PM   #24
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Default Re: Leaving the LRC has consequences....

Yes, I agree leaving the LRC does have consequences....
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Old 05-13-2012, 05:27 PM   #25
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Default Re: Leaving the LRC has consequences....

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As I quote, "I know of no one who has left the Lordís recovery and today is a great spiritual person on the earth." There are several questions to be asked.
1. How would Benson know if he doesn't maintain fellowship following their separation from Living Stream Ministry and it's fellowship of churches? Does Benson check to see how John Ingalls and Bill Mallon are doing spiritually? Does Benson visit Bill Freeman to see how he's doing spiritually? There are many other gifted brothers who have left the recovery, but you get my point. Fellowship is only relative to the ministry LSM publishes.
2. What is Benson's measuremenwhat makes a great spiritual person? I believe you almost have to say this implies being ambitious to be something. Many brothers who left did not have an ambition to be something. Only to be witnesses, to minister the Word, to teach the Word, and so on. For the sake of other resources please consider these websites:

http://www.thechristian.org/
http://www.christiantapeministry.com/
I have not been on this site in any active way but may I ask another question regarding Benson's assertion. "Who are the great spiritual persons who are currently active in the LSM or the local churches associated with the LSM?"

It seems to me that whenever a brother is manifested with a special portion he is removed and labeled as doing "his own thing" or something like that. For example the five brothers from the early work in Taiwan, Stephen Kaughn, Christian Chin, Titus Chu etc.

In Christ,

Hope
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Old 05-13-2012, 07:23 PM   #26
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Default Re: Leaving the LRC has consequences....

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I have not been on this site in any active way but may I ask another question regarding Benson's assertion. "Who are the great spiritual persons who are currently active in the LSM or the local churches associated with the LSM?"

It seems to me that whenever a brother is manifested with a special portion he is removed and labeled as doing "his own thing" or something like that. For example the five brothers from the early work in Taiwan, Stephen Kaughn, Christian Chin, Titus Chu etc.

In Christ,

Hope
Ironically I could say the same thing concerning the GLA, "whenever a brother is manifested with a special portion he is labeled as doing 'his own thing' or something like that."

For example Phil Comfort, Chuck Debelek, John Myer, etc.
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Old 05-14-2012, 12:13 PM   #27
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Ironically I could say the same thing concerning the GLA, "whenever a brother is manifested with a special portion he is labeled as doing 'his own thing' or something like that."

For example Phil Comfort, Chuck Debelek, John Myer, etc.
Yep! The LC system is not set up for "special portions". They want sameness and uniformity of content and even style. Phil Comfort is a gifted bible scholar and teacher. Chuck Debelek is a gifted educator, administrator and shepherd. John Myer is a gifted evangelist and writer. And that's just a short list. All decent men of God but in the alternative universe of the LC they are not welcome. There is no place for them to use what God has given them and it's the LCs loss.
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Old 05-14-2012, 07:05 PM   #28
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But again, may I inquire - I would like to know who are the "great spiritual persons" which are currently serving the Lord in the "Lord's Recovery?"

You all have been able to refer to several who have been excluded or left. But since Benson discounts all of these who are the wonderful saints he had in mind who remained loyal to the LSM etc?

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Old 05-15-2012, 06:08 AM   #29
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But again, may I inquire - I would like to know who are the "great spiritual persons" which are currently serving the Lord in the "Lord's Recovery?"

You all have been able to refer to several who have been excluded or left. But since Benson discounts all of these who are the wonderful saints he had in mind who remained loyal to the LSM etc?

Hope
By definition there cannot be another "great spiritual person," since they have all been required to be WL tape-recorders. How can their program even be receptive to "gifts given by the Head?"

They have become just the same as the Exclusive Brethren at the end of the 19th century. They were just a little faster to the draw -- while John Darby was still on his death bed the controlling Park Avenue Politburo in London began their extermination work. First to go was old Doctor Cronin for breaking bread. He was with the Brethren before even Darby was a Brethren. Next to go was the great teacher Wm Kelly, who personally compiled all of Darby's writings.

Spiritual men are the absolute biggest hindrance to decaying religious programs. Look what they did to the prophets in the Old Testament, Jesus Christ in the Gospels, and Stephen in the Acts.
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Old 05-15-2012, 08:51 AM   #30
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By definition there cannot be another "great spiritual person," since they have all been required to be WL tape-recorders. How can their program even be receptive to "gifts given by the Head?"
I think Ohio is onto something here.

If there can be no "great spiritual person" and that is the only thing you miss out on if you leave the LRC, then what benefit do you get for staying if you cannot be one there either?

Or are the ones now speaking this nonsense excluding themselves and they privately conclude that they are such persons? Do the ones who consider themselves the "blended" or "blending" brothers also consider themselves to be "great spiritual persons"? They surely don't consider anyone else in that category. And if someone would rise up and seem to be a pillar among them, then they must be knocked back down so that there is no such thing ó and only those who are blending are special (among the living).
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Old 05-15-2012, 12:18 PM   #31
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But again, may I inquire - I would like to know who are the "great spiritual persons" which are currently serving the Lord in the "Lord's Recovery?"

You all have been able to refer to several who have been excluded or left. But since Benson discounts all of these who are the wonderful saints he had in mind who remained loyal to the LSM etc?

Hope
It's hard to believe Benson said this because it is contrary to what WL said for years -- that the "age of spiritual giants is over" -- implying to all the faithful that he was the last one.

In which teaching also was the seed of the recent quarantines sown by WL into the Blendeds: If TC and DYL were perceived to be "spiritual giants" in certain segments of the recovery, then they must -- by definition -- have serious other problems with their ministry, since we all know ... that the "age of spiritual giants is over."
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Old 05-15-2012, 12:56 PM   #32
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It's hard to believe Benson said this because it is contrary to what WL said for years -- that the "age of spiritual giants is over" -- implying to all the faithful that he was the last one.

In which teaching also was the seed of the recent quarantines sown by WL into the Blendeds: If TC and DYL were perceived to be "spiritual giants" in certain segments of the recovery, then they must -- by definition -- have serious other problems with their ministry, since we all know ... that the "age of spiritual giants is over."
I wouldn't over-analyze this too much. Benson likely meant that since (according to him) people from the "Recovery" were so well-equipped with light and truth, any of them should have been able to walk out of the movement and with little effort become a leader and "giant" wherever he or she went. Since this that hasn't happened, it shows to him that the Lord removed the blessing from him or her, yada, yada.

Benson's error was in imagining that just because people were under Lee's ministry they are well-equipped. They are well-equipped....for being in the Recovery, but for little else. As we've all experienced, much of that equipping doesn't translate well because for the most part it's just an odd dialect of evangelical theology that loses something in the translation.
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Old 05-17-2012, 07:28 PM   #33
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But again, may I inquire - I would like to know who are the "great spiritual persons" which are currently serving the Lord in the "Lord's Recovery?"

You all have been able to refer to several who have been excluded or left. But since Benson discounts all of these who are the wonderful saints he had in mind who remained loyal to the LSM etc?

Hope
I don't know what the concept of "great spiritual persons" are but consider gifted brothers as Ohio has mentioned, they are generally expected to suppress their gift until the ministry calls upon them for it. In mind I was thinking of gifted songwriters such as Howard Higashi and T. R. formerly from the Church in Seattle who is the author of this hymn
http://youtu.be/4dyKORxkSnU

1 Corinthians 12:4 says "Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit."

However being a gifted brother is considered to be in rivalry with the ministry.
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Old 05-18-2012, 12:05 AM   #34
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However being a gifted brother is considered to be in rivalry with the ministry.
This idea of "rivalry with the ministry" demonstrates an insecurity which I think Witness Lee had. In common terms he was a control freak. He wanted to control the content consumed by the LC system and the elders. When things started getting out of his control he would either sideline the culprits (if they were quiet and discrete) or openly denounce them if they were outspoken about not wanting to be controlled by him and his lackeys.

The shame of the LC under Witness Lee is he was unable or unwilling to allow any of his coworkers to gain the stature that he had within the system. A sign of any good master workman is his ability to take on apprentices and teach them by instruction and more importantly by example until they ultimately become better at doing the work than the master. That should be a proud day for the master. Instead Witness Lee kept them down, made fun of them, called them names, publicly ridiculed them in front of their coworkers - he was full of jealousy and rivalry that anyone might become better or more liked than him. He ruined the LC.
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Old 05-18-2012, 06:45 AM   #35
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This idea of "rivalry with the ministry" demonstrates an insecurity which I think Witness Lee had. In common terms he was a control freak. He wanted to control the content consumed by the LC system and the elders. When things started getting out of his control he would either sideline the culprits (if they were quiet and discrete) or openly denounce them if they were outspoken about not wanting to be controlled by him and his lackeys.
And, apparently, the "nut" Titus Chu did not fall very far from the "tree" Lee.
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Old 05-18-2012, 06:45 AM   #36
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This idea of "rivalry with the ministry" demonstrates an insecurity which I think Witness Lee had. In common terms he was a control freak. He wanted to control the content consumed by the LC system and the elders. When things started getting out of his control he would either sideline the culprits (if they were quiet and discrete) or openly denounce them if they were outspoken about not wanting to be controlled by him and his lackeys.

The shame of the LC under Witness Lee is he was unable or unwilling to allow any of his coworkers to gain the stature that he had within the system. A sign of any good master workman is his ability to take on apprentices and teach them by instruction and more importantly by example until they ultimately become better at doing the work than the master. That should be a proud day for the master. Instead Witness Lee kept them down, made fun of them, called them names, publicly ridiculed them in front of their coworkers - he was full of jealousy and rivalry that anyone might become better or more liked than him. He ruined the LC.
alwayslearning, since you seem to understand the dynamics of the Recovery, I wanted to propose another idea for comment. In many regards TC was identical to WL, and it's difficult also not to see many similarities with the exclusive Brethren leaders of the 19th century. On the one hand the leaders -- whether WL or TC or JND -- were immensely talented men who needed to be in complete control, but it often seemed that another factor was at work. This factor made them bullies

Many times these leaders would squash programs or spiritual burdens which did not originate with them, and ruthlessly belittle their proponents, Other times these leaders would hijack ideas or burdens of other leaders and make them their own, as if all good things of God must come directly through them. I understand this is a "control freak" characteristic of the first order, but, based on all I have seen and heard it seems there is also an obsession with vain glory. They demand the glory of men, and refuse to share it with any peers. The whole world can despise them, and that doesn't bother them in the least, but inside their movement they alone must be "honored," and they would never share that honor with another.

Personally I believe the glory of men is the root cause, coupled with enormous talents and controlling obsessions. Jesus told the Pharisees, "How can you believe when you love the glory of men more than the glory of God?" I think the glory of men is the underlying cause of this Minister of the Age teaching, along with their skewed concept of church history -- "there has always been one man ..."

Comments?
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Old 05-18-2012, 06:58 AM   #37
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The really sad thing is that this insecurity and control-freakiness passed itself off as "protecting God's interests."

If you could sum up the deception of the Recovery it was that one thing:
A leader and his henchmen acting as if his will to power was in the Lord's interests, and a bunch of followers falling for it.

The Lord taught over and over than results are not to be achieved this way. His most famous statement about this was, "Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth." A meek person is just someone who does not push his will on others, especially on those who are in his care.

Christian leaders are supposed to be servants, not directors. Saying that to those in the Recovery is like speaking Russian to aborigines.
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Old 05-18-2012, 07:08 AM   #38
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"as if all good things of God must come directly through them."
That says it all, Ohio.
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Old 05-18-2012, 11:13 AM   #39
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That says it all, Ohio.
Sometimes I surprise myself with some of my posts. I mean that.

This comment about LC leaders, "as if all good things of God must come directly through them," is by no means an exaggeration or a fabrication. Today the Blendeds still believe that. It governs their ministry and operation.
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Old 05-18-2012, 11:28 AM   #40
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Sometimes I surprise myself with some of my posts. I mean that.
With apologies to a less-than-brilliant mind, "Brilliance is as brilliance does."
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Old 05-19-2012, 10:07 AM   #41
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alwayslearning, since you seem to understand the dynamics of the Recovery, I wanted to propose another idea for comment. In many regards TC was identical to WL, and it's difficult also not to see many similarities with the exclusive Brethren leaders of the 19th century. On the one hand the leaders -- whether WL or TC or JND -- were immensely talented men who needed to be in complete control, but it often seemed that another factor was at work. This factor made them bullies

I understand this is a "control freak" characteristic of the first order, but, based on all I have seen and heard it seems there is also an obsession with vain glory. They demand the glory of men, and refuse to share it with any peers. The whole world can despise them, and that doesn't bother them in the least, but inside their movement they alone must be "honored," and they would never share that honor with another.
I think you make an excellent observation and I agree that vain glory is a big factor at play. They want the central role and they want to be recognized and acknowledged as the central figure with "the flow" of the work starting from them and spreading out - to use Witness Lee's imagery.

But the confusing part for many was the pretense at humility that these figures put on. They were "just humble slaves of Christ" doing His work. Without this I think many would have more clarity about the nature of these kind of systems that are really a form of dictatorship.

BTW I read John's book and I liked his take on the idea that all elders in the Midwest are expected to go to a central location for elders conferences and also to shut down local meetings) so every one can go to larger conferences. His view that the elders should decide if they want to go to these conferences and whether they will even announce them is great! The assumption that all will go and the idea that someone or something is "off" if they don't is a form of subtle control. Not that the elders should keep those who hear about it from going but the idea that they are fully expected to blindly do the bidding of Titus Chu demonstrates how the LC system works. Of course Titus Chu would say something like (as would Witness Lee): "I don't force people to come to Cleveland for conferences. How can I do that? They are free man and woman to do what they want. I am not controlling." Fully realizing that he is using the elders as tools to do what he wants at the local level including the practice of shutting things done locally whenever there is a conference and the negative attitude towards all those who won't comply.

How finances in "the work" are handled and managed is another very effective way to exert control but...this post is too long already!
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Old 05-19-2012, 03:16 PM   #42
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Personally I believe the glory of men is the root cause, coupled with enormous talents and controlling obsessions. Jesus told the Pharisees, "How can you believe when you love the glory of men more than the glory of God?" I think the glory of men is the underlying cause of this Minister of the Age teaching, along with their skewed concept of church history -- "there has always been one man ..."

Comments?
Ohio, why not examine "deputy authority" and "delegated authority"? Isn't this also the glory of men? Another is the concept man has to be one with man ("be one with the brothers") which why there is the practice "respect of persons". Rarely seen or heard is a rebuke or admonishment of a delegated authority or a deputy authority. There is simply too much respect of persons which leads to glory of man.
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Old 05-20-2012, 10:12 AM   #43
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Ohio, why not examine "deputy authority" and "delegated authority"? Isn't this also the glory of men? Another is the concept man has to be one with man ("be one with the brothers") which why there is the practice "respect of persons". Rarely seen or heard is a rebuke or admonishment of a delegated authority or a deputy authority. There is simply too much respect of persons which leads to glory of man.
Good points. The concept of "deputy authority" and "delegated authority" are no different than the Roman concept of the "infallibility of the Pope." They exalt one man above others. This "man" then, as the "authority" of the body of Christ, usurps the authority of the real Head, who is the Lord Jesus Christ. Consequently his word rises above God's word and his direction rises above God's direction. This is proven every time one of the saints is criticized for "doing his own thing, doing his own work, etc." when all he/she was doing was following the Lord.

The most egregious thing about the promotion of some "deputy authority" is that it is always reinforced at the times when the so-called "deputy authority" is caught violating the righteous demands of scripture. The cries from the ministry minions to submit to the "deputy" are designed to drown out the cries from the saints for righteous accountability of these leaders. Instead of humbling himself in repentance, and taking ownership of wrongdoings, the "deputy" elevates and exalts himself against the knowledge of God.

Please note that "heretics" have never been quarantined in the Recovery. It is the present day prophets, who act as whistle-blowers for the righteousness of God, who are slandered, libeled, and quarantined in the Recovery.

"Blessed are those who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of the heavens. Blessed are you when they reproach and persecute you, and say every evil thing against you, lying, for My sake. Rejoice and be glad, for thus they persecuted the prophets before you." -- Sermon on the Mount
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Old 05-20-2012, 10:46 AM   #44
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How finances in "the work" are handled and managed is another very effective way to exert control but...this post is too long already!
The not so subtle policy of the Recovery is that all the workers are "owned" by the ranking worker, whether that be WL or TC. It is the way churches are controlled. Full-timers have no say whatsoever as to where they live or where they serve. At a moment's notice, all full-timers were required to drop everything and drive to Cleveland for special "fellowship" with TC. And don't be late! This was a regular occurrence for all the full-timers.

Brothers like John Myer would practically move every year at the whim of TC. He lived in my town for a total of about 10 months. I remember one dear brother who was required by TC to relocate with his family to Cincy "for the Lord." As we were packing the moving truck, new orders came from Cleveland to move to Willby "for the Lord." The reason for their move was never concerning the Lord, and neither for their "perfecting." Rather the underlying reason for their move was to sever their ties with their home church and "reconnect" them to TC and his work.

Full-timers working under TC were often treated as dogs. They had so say as to where they would live. Without a moment's notice they could be publicly shamed for something they never did. Nor did they ever dare to speak up about the way they were being treated.

In fact, no one leaving the Recovery is ever sent off with prayers of blessing, as is regularly done in most Christian churches. Instead they have to slip away under cover of darkness. Here I am not at all exaggerating, there are far too many real stories.

Definitely the Recovery needs serious "financial reform." Each worker must be supported by his host church and be accountable to their local elders. These regional funds empower bad leaders. When an employee is mistreated, he can find another job. But what do the workers do? Some are stuck, really stuck!
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Old 05-20-2012, 06:13 PM   #45
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In fact, no one leaving the Recovery is ever sent off with prayers of blessing, as is regularly done in most Christian churches.
I can attest to that from the community church I meet with. Blessing the departing elder in his last meeting. Though he's no longer meeting there, this former elder is still greeted, received, and visited as a fellow member of the Body.
In the local churches, I have never been in a meeting where a brother or sister leaves the assembly with a prayer, with a blessing. Rather the expectation is the departing brother leaves as a gentleman. Without so much an opportunity by the assembly to bless them and with them well. Only exception being leaving one locality for another.
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Old 05-20-2012, 06:19 PM   #46
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The most egregious thing about the promotion of some "deputy authority" is that it is always reinforced at the times when the so-called "deputy authority" is caught violating the righteous demands of scripture. The cries from the ministry minions to submit to the "deputy" are designed to drown out the cries from the saints for righteous accountability of these leaders. Instead of humbling himself in repentance, and taking ownership of wrongdoings, the "deputy" elevates and exalts himself against the knowledge of God.

"Blessed are those who are persecuted for the sake of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of the heavens. Blessed are you when they reproach and persecute you, and say every evil thing against you, lying, for My sake. Rejoice and be glad, for thus they persecuted the prophets before you." -- Sermon on the Mount
I am reminded of the testimony of a couple in Southern California. Formerly from the Church of Ontario where they had been subjected to abuses by a deputy authority, they had plan to move to another county in Southern California. Initially an elder with whom they had a pre-existing relationship with welcomed them. That was until a blended brother gave a word.

Here is an example of a ministry minion expected to submit to a deputy authority. A farce to say: the local church with it's administration local.
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Old 05-20-2012, 07:29 PM   #47
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A farce to say: the local church with it's administration local.
That "administration local" is a farce. Even WL reduced the authority of local elders to deciding what time to meet and "crucial" items such as that.
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Old 05-21-2012, 07:48 AM   #48
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Definitely the Recovery needs serious "financial reform." Each worker must be supported by his host church and be accountable to their local elders. These regional funds empower bad leaders. When an employee is mistreated, he can find another job. But what do the workers do? Some are stuck, really stuck!
I think it was Watchman Nee who taught that "the work" is regional and has a center and that the coworkers go to and from that center (Antioch model). Working this way the financial support for Paul and his coworkers came from various sources and not just Antioch. Can this be applied today and still be practical and workable? I'm not so sure. In practice it makes churches branch offices.

The tension is between the authority of regional coworkers and local elders. I think churches would firstly prefer to support their own elders rather than coworkers who are controlled by an extra-local center and come and go at the whim of the "senior coworker" i.e. the boss. If funds are left over after supporting their own local needs than maybe they would want to give it to support an extra-local ministry but not with the idea that a coworker could waltz into their church and start running things and dictating to the elders and others how things had to be done. This kind of practice undermines the elders and causes conflict.
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Old 05-21-2012, 09:19 AM   #49
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I think that, ignoring the rhetoric and practice of the LRC, Christianity actually has a pretty good model. Local assemblies mostly cover themselves. Or more correctly, cover themselves plus more. The assembly as a group supports those who minister outside the assembly from local/regional efforts, to the traditional missionaries. Further, many of the people support others in ministry as they feel led. And they often support ministries that serve back to the individual and/or assemblies ó the writers, speakers, etc. Surely we need those who are going out and those who are giving back. Even the local elders/preachers/teachers benefit from these.

There is an abundance of gifts for so many aspects of the Christian life, service, worship, and mission. We are all part in our way. Some teach us. Some go out as commissioned. And some continue the local evidence of changed lives. This is truly good news.

Now some will be quick to point out that some assemblies are required to pay a portion of their funding to a headquarters. My only comment on this would be that relationships are not necessarily bad. That any practice can be found in some problematic group (say, the LRC or the RCC) does not automatically make the practice bad. Those places also preach. They partake in communion. And so on. We don't complain about those things. Why does anything not otherwise clearly in error become error because it has a similar look to what some other group (that we don't like) does? Quit comparing and say what is wrong without comparison.

(I actually attended a RCC mass on Palm Sunday ó well, it was Saturday ó and they declared strongly that salvation is only due to the once-for-all sacrifice of Christ. I guess that doctrine is now suspect.)

So the problem is not really that there are ministers that are linked regionally, or that answer to someone else. I would suggest that many would assert that a "church plant" is often subject to the desires of the church that sent them out. That is not a strictly LRC practice. And the arrival of new faces, including the leadership, from somewhere else is not entirely problematic. But eventually, the assembly should be local. I realize that there are some denominations in which the preachers are assigned by headquarters. But most of the evangelical grouping are not that way.

I'm not going through this to justify the ways of Christianity. I am doing it to parallel the practices of the LRC. The problem with the LRC is not that an elder may come from, and at the request of, someone at a distance. The problem is whether they are first servants of the assembly, or of that distant source. It is whether they are for the church or for some ministry. If some preacher, elder, etc., turns out to be a plant from the LSM, Cleveland, the BBs, Focus on the Family, Insight for Living, or some other ministry, and takes that as their primary directive, then they are not a proper preacher, teacher, elder, etc. But if they arrive at someone else's behest and become what a preacher, teacher, elder, etc., should be, then their history becomes somewhat irrelevant. It might even be possible for them to continue to have a relationship with that distant source that, while influencing their thinking, does not control. The evidence will be seen eventually. I note that Ohio has mentioned a lot of the wrong side of this kind of thing ó elders who treat their local church family as an extension of a remote ministry.
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Old 05-21-2012, 09:21 AM   #50
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One more comment aimed directly at the thread's title.

Yes, leaving the LRC has consequences. For me, while it took time to come to full realization, it was freedom from bondage. And I could stand more of those kinds of consequences.
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Old 05-21-2012, 10:32 AM   #51
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Default Re: Leaving the LRC has consequences....

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I think it was Watchman Nee who taught that "the work" is regional and has a center and that the coworkers go to and from that center (Antioch model). Working this way the financial support for Paul and his coworkers came from various sources and not just Antioch. Can this be applied today and still be practical and workable? I'm not so sure. In practice it makes churches branch offices.
While the GLA was separating themselves from LSM and her cadre of Blendeds, many of the GLA leaders, perhaps for the first time, began to think thru the relationship between the churches and the work. Many carefully examined WN's hallmark book TNCCL. All of the dynamics which characterized the LC's relationship with LSM, could also be applied to their relationship with Cleveland.

TC attempted to avert the disaster of total disintegration by using the two principles that we in the GLA had a life-relationship with WL but not with the Blendeds, and that WL was our spiritual father, so whether he makes mistakes or not, is none of our business. Some brothers bought into this kind of thinking, and some did not. The conclusion is that WL could basically get away with murder, while the Blendeds can't get away with anything. To further this analogy, TC had a life-relationship with us, and was our spiritual father, so whether he makes mistakes or not, is none of our business.

These two principles, while sounding spiritual, undermine the accountability demanded of Christian leaders both in the Bible and in WN's book. These two principles for decades have given license to LC leaders like WL and TC to abuse their positions in the body of Christ. Using WN's book as credentials for their "work," they have become popes and bishops in the Recovery without the necessary checks and balances of the scripture. They liked to use WN's teachings about authority, yet without the necessary caveats which preserve the saints and the churches.

Today many GLA leaders will no longer endorse the old ways which they once accepted. The quarantine served to expose many of the bad habits which had crept into the Recovery. Time has served to expose the bad fruits of those old ways. Hence, many GLA elders and LC's are no longer "under the thumb" of TC. I believe most of them do appreciate all the positive they have received from the ministry of TC, but have determined to place the flock entrusted to their care above the work headquartered in Cleveland.
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Old 05-21-2012, 11:32 AM   #52
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TC attempted to avert the disaster of total disintegration by using the two principles that we in the GLA had a life-relationship with WL but not with the Blendeds, and that WL was our spiritual father, so whether he makes mistakes or not, is none of our business.
Spiritual father part, I take exception to. However in the theme of man-honoring regardless of mistakes Witness Lee did make, if brothers and sisters make their rejecting based on whom Witness Lee rejected, that is being man-honoring. On the contrary, as brothers and sisters we should receive whom Christ has also received.
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Old 05-21-2012, 12:07 PM   #53
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I think that, ignoring the rhetoric and practice of the LRC, Christianity actually has a pretty good model. Local assemblies mostly cover themselves. Or more correctly, cover themselves plus more. I'm not going through this to justify the ways of Christianity. I am doing it to parallel the practices of the LRC.
I basically agree with this depending on which model in the vast arena of Christianity you are referring to. In his book John refers to his church and the church where Keith Miller is as community churches which I understand to mean autonomous yet in fellowship with other churches. I happen to think this model more closely matches what Watchman Nee had in mind rather than what the local churches under Witness Lee, the Anaheim Politburo, Titus Chu, etc. have become.

A self-supporting church may or may not invite outside ministers to come and speak, have a literature table at the back to sell books afterwards etc. But if they do it's their choice. They decide at the local level what's best for their church. It's not imposed from the outside. The downside of this is if the elders or pastors or whatever they're called go off the deep end doctrinally, financially, morally etc. Who to turn to? But I think with mobility and communications the way it is today people are savvy enough to know what's what and will just leave and go elsewhere if things go awry.
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Old 05-22-2012, 07:45 AM   #54
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The downside of this is if the elders or pastors or whatever they're called go off the deep end doctrinally, financially, morally etc. Who to turn to? But I think with mobility and communications the way it is today people are savvy enough to know what's what and will just leave and go elsewhere if things go awry.
The error the LRC made was to equate their congregation with the whole church in the city. Naturally this led to the reasoning that leaving their congregation was to severe your relationship with the whole church, so the reasoning was you had to stay through thick and thin.

However, you can leave a congregation, but you can never really leave the church. That's the Lord's wisdom. The church is everywhere. Any group can claim to be part of that church, but no group should claim to be the most legitimate, or worse, only legitimate manifestation of it.

Any believer needs to be prepared for the possibility that things could go south on their congregation to the point that an exit is the prudent course.

Church-hopping and having no commitment is one extreme; saying there is never a good reason to leave a congregation is the other. The Bible never tells us we have to be prisoners of wacko elders who themselves are prisoners of wacko "apostles," simply because those wackos claim to own the "local ground" and are "the Lord's recovery."

That's just wacko. But it's amazing how many still believe it.
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Old 05-23-2012, 09:42 AM   #55
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I basically agree with this depending on which model in the vast arena of Christianity you are referring to. In his book John refers to his church and the church where Keith Miller is as community churches which I understand to mean autonomous yet in fellowship with other churches. I happen to think this model more closely matches what Watchman Nee had in mind rather than what the local churches under Witness Lee, the Anaheim Politburo, Titus Chu, etc. have become.
The word on John Myer in the TC directed GA LC's is that "John wanted to be a Pastor." For those familiar with TC, the word "pastor" is just about the most obnoxious word available to describe a Christian minister. For the workers and full-timers with TC to say, "John wanted to be a Pastor," is to conclude that he has forsaken the vision, left his standing, and has embarked on a personal, self-aggrandizing, independent course of action.

But "leaving the LRC has consequences...." doesn't it? Dare we let the saints know that John Myer really left to follow the Lord, frustrated by all the leavened "extras" in the Recovery, and not willing to be shamed and ridiculed by TC in front of the young saints he serves?

John Myer is not alone. Besides those in Columbus, Cincinnati, Detroit and Toronto have also made sizable strides in the same direction.
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Old 05-24-2012, 06:49 AM   #56
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As far as "inability to go on with the Lord", here's a real doozy from Mr. Benson Phillips:
“In any case, do not leave the Lord’s recovery. I can assure you that if you go away from the Lord’s recovery, you will have no way for the process of sanctification to go forward within you. Instead, you will just enter into a bankrupt situation. I know of no one who has left the Lord’s recovery and today is a great spiritual person on the earth. The sanctification process is carried out in the Lord’s recovery.”(The Ministry Magazine Vol. 8, No. 1 Page 189, first paragraph)
In a case of mistaken hypocrisy, LSM has also promised the "sanctification process" would be greatly facilitated by those who also purchase cemetery plots at the Grace Terrace Memorial Association (GTMA), which is part of Rose Hills Memorial Park in Whittier, CA where brother Witness Lee is now buried. How appropriately located, since this is one of LSM's "wittier" schemes for fleecing the saints.

This is from the "What A Spin" website ...

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Is there a scriptural basis for the "sanctification" promised by Grace Terrace? The cemetery claims to be "an environment consistent with the sanctification and dignity … befitting the beloved saints of God." Yet where does the New Testament connect sanctification with cemeteries? Where does the Bible suggest the "Lord’s recovery" needs its own cemetery so saints can be buried close to Brother Lee? Is this cemetery project about sanctification or superstition?
Apparently "Leaving the LRC has consequences ..." and good ones indeed, as long as you die and have your future secured with a cemetery plot close to WL himself. Thanks Benson P. for "rightly dividing" the word of God -- we now have a clear word about how the sanctification process is being carried out in the Lord’s recovery.

.
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Old 05-24-2012, 08:44 PM   #57
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In a case of mistaken hypocrisy, LSM has also promised the "sanctification process" would be greatly facilitated by those who also purchase cemetery plots at the Grace Terrace Memorial Association (GTMA), which is part of Rose Hills Memorial Park in Whittier, CA where brother Witness Lee is now buried. How appropriately located, since this is one of LSM's "wittier" schemes for fleecing the saints.
Acess the link to view photos from Witness Lee's burual in 2004 at Grace Terrace.

http://www.blendedbody.com/_cl/local...WitnessLee.htm
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Old 05-25-2012, 03:29 AM   #58
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A grave next to bruuuther Lee. The ultimate, "it is here that we've ended our search."
You are either building your own dream, or somebody else's dream. Witness Lee had a dream. It's the world-wide domination of his ministry. We were misled to believe we had seen "The Vision." Actually, we were the victims of a cruel bait and switch. We were given a glimpse of the vision, but we blinked and there it was before us - consuming us, Witness Lee's dream. And as if its not bad enough that many held this delusion to their dying breath, good ole LSM has found a way to fleece the dead.

Even in death what LSM has to offer isn't just presented as another option. Above board, full disclosure, presented as an option, I'd have no problem with the concept. "We want to make some money, and here is a nice place to let your elements rest." But no, even in death, what LSM has to offer is presented as the be all that ends all.
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Old 05-27-2012, 03:29 PM   #59
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Even in death what LSM has to offer isn't just presented as another option. Above board, full disclosure, presented as an option, I'd have no problem with the concept. "We want to make some money, and here is a nice place to let your elements rest." But no, even in death, what LSM has to offer is presented as the be all that ends all.
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Old 01-07-2013, 02:25 PM   #60
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Hello everyone, I just found this forum and I am in the process of leaving a local church. To address the original post, I do not have any written evidence of this belief that leaving "the church life" will bring about severely negative consequences to one's life but I am familiar with the concept that one's life will fall apart once you leave. I did not record these statements however but they made an impact on me personally. Over and over again I have been told my life is going to go downhill if I leave the fellowship. Over the past several weeks, I have quietly told people I am leaving and have been repeatedly told that I am leaving God's Will and Satan is attacking me and I will no longer know truth, etc. I have been asked if my lifestyle is changing or whether I was ever really a believer. It has been being told more psychologically related consequences rather than something like being killed physically, more like being told I am going to die spiritually.
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Old 01-08-2013, 10:13 AM   #61
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Hello everyone, I just found this forum and I am in the process of leaving a local church. To address the original post, I do not have any written evidence of this belief that leaving "the church life" will bring about severely negative consequences to one's life but I am familiar with the concept that one's life will fall apart once you leave. I did not record these statements however but they made an impact on me personally. Over and over again I have been told my life is going to go downhill if I leave the fellowship. Over the past several weeks, I have quietly told people I am leaving and have been repeatedly told that I am leaving God's Will and Satan is attacking me and I will no longer know truth, etc. I have been asked if my lifestyle is changing or whether I was ever really a believer. It has been being told more psychologically related consequences rather than something like being killed physically, more like being told I am going to die spiritually.
Hello Finding Freedom.

Open your bible and read Hebrews 13:5
Let His Word penetrate your heart. God will never leave you or forsake you.

Hold on to Jeremiah 29:11 that the LORD has plans for you to PROSPER. Plans -NOT TO harm you- plans to give YOU Hope and a future.

Always remember Jesus is your/our SAVIOR.

The Lord is -your- Shepherd. You shall not lack.
He will give you Green pastures to rest, relax and lie down on
He has and will lead YOU, Finding Freedom to still, peaceful waters.

And while you might walk through the valley of the shadow of death (for we all have), do not fear evil, or the weapons of insecurity, fear, loneliness, doubt, anxiety that might and will come against you (as they do come against us all, not just you) For GOD your Protector, Your Provider is with you. His Rod ( Jesus) and His Staff (His Holy Spirit) will comfort you. (Remember our Lord Jesus told His disciples He would send them/us another Comforter).

He promises and KEEPS HIS WORD to restore your soul and lead you in the paths of Righteousness for HIS Name's Sake. (certainly God does not want His Holy and Blessed Name tarnished!!!

And in the presence of your enemies, the LORD will prepare a Table (the Lord's Table) before you. He will anoint your head with Oil (the Holy Spirit) until your cup (your spirit) will spill over [with His Live, Peace, InnerJoy, Wisdom].

His GOODNESS and MERCY will follow you all the days of your life. And you/we WILL dwell in the House of the LORD forever.....not in Lee's house.

Blessings and keep us posted.

Carol Garza
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Old 01-08-2013, 11:46 AM   #62
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Hello Finding Freedom!

Thank you for posting, and do not fear!! Romans 8:1 says "Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus", and no man or woman can condemn you for leaving a particular fellowship. Christ knows who are His; and if you are persecuted for your faith in Him, then know that you are blessed. In Matthew 5:11 Jesus Christ the Lord says "Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me."

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I do not have any written evidence of this belief that leaving "the church life" will bring about severely negative consequences to one's life but I am familiar with the concept that one's life will fall apart once you leave. I did not record these statements however but they made an impact on me personally. Over and over again I have been told my life is going to go downhill if I leave the fellowship. Over the past several weeks, I have quietly told people I am leaving and have been repeatedly told that I am leaving God's Will and Satan is attacking me and I will no longer know truth, etc. I have been asked if my lifestyle is changing or whether I was ever really a believer. It has been being told more psychologically related consequences rather than something like being killed physically, more like being told I am going to die spiritually.
I am so sorry you are being subjected to this, and finding us here, you now know you are not alone. Perhaps these people who've said these things to you believe them, but that doesn't excuse them. If they knew the Word of God, they would not be so quick to condemn you. Mormons say the same thing to those who try to leave their group. They have even published such things online, IE: "When faced with a trial of faithówhatever you do, you donít step away from the Church! Distancing yourself from the kingdom of God during a trial of faith is like leaving the safety of a secure storm cellar just as the tornado comes into view." This is a cultist trick. Don't believe it.

Get in the Word, stay in the Word, and speak the Truth to these people in love as well. You might leave alone right now, but your testimony may well encourage others to seek the truth you share. Pray, and know that we will pray with you. Jesus Christ is Lord, let Him be Lord over you and your life; not any man.


Yours in Christ,

Ray
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Old 01-08-2013, 07:28 PM   #63
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Over and over again I have been told my life is going to go downhill if I leave the fellowship. Over the past several weeks, I have quietly told people I am leaving and have been repeatedly told that I am leaving God's Will and Satan is attacking me and I will no longer know truth, etc. I have been asked if my lifestyle is changing or whether I was ever really a believer.
I think in part the local churches has artain tempo to keep brothers and sisters engaged in the ministry through various meetings and informal gatherings. There isn't much time to have much of a social life beyond the local church fellowship.
Having been familiar with the attitude towards Christians outside the local churches, the concept exists Christians are shallow; lacking any spiritual depth. That if you leave the local churches, you are going to fall prey to the vices of the world and become a Sunday morning only Christian. If there is no Christian fellowship apart from distinctions of ministries, there's no awareness what Christians in various assemblies are doing or where their spiritual health is at.

Churches I have met with each encourage daily reading in the Bible and similar to the Holy Word for Morning Revival, print cards for daily eading each week. Similar to the local churches, encourage getting involved with a home meeting.
If you have been ingrained with the local ground concept, that may become an obstacle in being knit with fellow Christians in your local community.
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Old 01-09-2013, 08:50 AM   #64
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Over the past several weeks, I have quietly told people I am leaving and have been repeatedly told that I am leaving God's Will and Satan is attacking me and I will no longer know truth, etc. I have been asked if my lifestyle is changing or whether I was ever really a believer. It has been being told more psychologically related consequences rather than something like being killed physically, more like being told I am going to die spiritually.
This is typical and the funny thing is this kind of behavior is a trait of a cult which they vehemently deny being. In a normal church setting you are free to come and go. As a matter of fact if you are not happy in a certain church others will positively encourage you to go and find a place more suitable so you can grow as a Christian. "We really want you to stay but if it's not working out for you let me recommend these 3 churches that you might like. Check them out. But please remember you're always welcome back here anytime." If you're not hearing that there's a problem!
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Old 01-09-2013, 09:51 AM   #65
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"We really want you to stay but if it's not working out for you let me recommend these 3 churches that you might like. Check them out. But please remember you're always welcome back here anytime." If you're not hearing that there's a problem!
Amen. Amen. And again, I say, Amen!
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Old 01-09-2013, 11:06 AM   #66
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This is typical and the funny thing is this kind of behavior is a trait of a cult which they vehemently deny being. In a normal church setting you are free to come and go. As a matter of fact if you are not happy in a certain church others will positively encourage you to go and find a place more suitable so you can grow as a Christian. "We really want you to stay but if it's not working out for you let me recommend these 3 churches that you might like. Check them out. But please remember you're always welcome back here anytime." If you're not hearing that there's a problem!
Very well put Always learning!!!
As an afterthought....we who have found freedom, fresh air and true Love outside the LC strongholds, have to remember, we were once in Finding Freedom"s shoes.

We had to drum up the courage to leave and believe wholeheartedly truly God will not chastise us for leaving the LC.

Carol G
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Old 01-09-2013, 11:48 AM   #67
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I would just like to say that after leaving the LRC two and half years ago (approximately), my family has never been healthier or happier today. We have gone on with the Lord. We are spiritually fed. We enjoy the fellowship of all of those that we come in contact with. I feel that leaving the LRC was the best thing we ever did. We did not leave the church. We entered into it. I am not in religion. I left it. We had also heard that our health and spiritual growth could be in jeopardy. I can not give a quote but I knew this in the LC and was afraid to leave. I was surprised to see that my growth seemed to increase. The Lord is able to speak to me directly now because I am not looking to the words of WL. I am only looking to Jesus. There is no mediator. Nothing is coming between my God and me.
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Old 01-09-2013, 06:22 PM   #68
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We rejoice with you Abounding!!!! Isn't it wonderful how Alive we truly are in Christ Jesus outside the confines of Lee's LC ?

Truly we are free to have a deeper, happier, more loving relationship with God. Thanks for posting!!!

Carol
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Old 01-10-2013, 07:13 AM   #69
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I would just like to say that after leaving the LRC two and half years ago (approximately), my family has never been healthier or happier today. We have gone on with the Lord. We are spiritually fed. We enjoy the fellowship of all of those that we come in contact with. I feel that leaving the LRC was the best thing we ever did. We did not leave the church. We entered into it. I am not in religion. I left it. We had also heard that our health and spiritual growth could be in jeopardy. I can not give a quote but I knew this in the LC and was afraid to leave. I was surprised to see that my growth seemed to increase. The Lord is able to speak to me directly now because I am not looking to the words of WL. I am only looking to Jesus. There is no mediator. Nothing is coming between my God and me.
>>>>> <<<<<
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Old 01-10-2013, 06:04 PM   #70
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Praise the Lord! Abounding, it's not about your leaving, but about you and your family going on. Just open up the phone book and there's so many listings of churches. It is not easy to say "We are spiritually fed." That is my experience the last two years.
Whichever assemblies we meet with, there is the church.
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Old 06-18-2013, 02:50 AM   #71
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In a case of mistaken hypocrisy, LSM has also promised the "sanctification process" would be greatly facilitated by those who also purchase cemetery plots at the Grace Terrace Memorial Association (GTMA), which is part of Rose Hills Memorial Park in Whittier, CA where brother Witness Lee is now buried. How appropriately located, since this is one of LSM's "wittier" schemes for fleecing the saints.
Interesting the GTMA website was down for a while, I thought maybe they'd realised what a terrible idea it was and shut it down but no, now it's back up revamped with some kind of "explanation" about GT, no doubt after many saints asked "what on earth is LSM doing getting involved with a cemetery?".

The answer, in typical LSM style (ie "we are the only ones to take a closer look at the situation in California's Cemeteries because we are the Funeral Directors of the Age, and we're going to give you some half truths which may or may not be true but, being LSM pyramid clones you are likely to just believe what we say. In any case, we're not going to mention specifics which we could easily be called out on, so we're just going to keep it quite vague, with a few mentions of our Lord Jesus for good measure, thanks and keep the cheques coming.").......

Many brothers and sisters in the Lord may wonder as to the need for such a project as Grace Terrace. Surely memorial parks like Rose Hills, and Forest Lawn, where many dear saints have been buried, can handle the practical needs of the believers in this regard. But a closer look reveals that the dignity and heritage of such facilities have been steadily eroded, until today, at least in this part of the country, cemeteries that serve the general public have often taken on a frivolous-even idolatrous atmosphere. At certain times of the year particularly, the setting has become altogether common, completely devoid of the sanctification that was such a part of the testimony of the believers during their lifetime. The Bible clearly points us to the importance that the saints of old afforded the matter of their earthly resting-place.

[Dang I came onto this thread to ask a question about staying in the LC and got totally sidetracked by this.]
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Old 06-18-2013, 03:47 AM   #72
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[Dang I came onto this thread to ask a question about staying in the LC and got totally sidetracked by this.]
Sorry ... James73 ... I get carried away at times.
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Old 06-18-2013, 04:26 AM   #73
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Sorry ... James73 ... I get carried away at times.
no no, sidetracked is good! carried away is also good!
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Old 06-18-2013, 05:38 AM   #74
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Fleece 'em while alive .... and fleece 'em when dead too ...
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Old 05-25-2020, 09:49 PM   #75
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I know I have read it here, but after a search I haven't been able to find it...
Someone or perhaps multiple people have claimed that if you leave the LRC for whatever reason there will be consequences (poor health, inability to go on with the Lord, to grow spiritually, etc). Can anyone point me to an exact quote? I am thinking specifically about the physical/health consequences, but any examples are welcome. I am still in the LRC and have never heard such things...
Thanks.
Here's a decent one from The Vision of the Age (underlining added):

"During these fifty-four years that I have been in the Lordís recovery, I have seen many people both in the northern and southern parts of China who had high moral standards and a noble character, who had learned deep lessons in life, and whose spiritual condition was good. When they passed through the Lordís recovery or met with us for a few years and then left, invariably they found their spiritual service fading and faltering. This is an amazing thing. Those who have never touched the Lordís recovery can still somewhat go on, but those who have come and then left invariably find their end less than desirable. There is not one exception. This proves that the recovery bears the vision that the Lord has entrusted to this age."

(not sure how WL's anecdote "proves" anything, but what else is new with this guy)
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Old 05-29-2020, 02:04 PM   #76
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Here's a decent one from The Vision of the Age (underlining added):

"During these fifty-four years that I have been in the Lord’s recovery, I have seen many people both in the northern and southern parts of China who had high moral standards and a noble character, who had learned deep lessons in life, and whose spiritual condition was good. When they passed through the Lord’s recovery or met with us for a few years and then left, invariably they found their spiritual service fading and faltering. This is an amazing thing. Those who have never touched the Lord’s recovery can still somewhat go on, but those who have come and then left invariably find their end less than desirable. There is not one exception. This proves that the recovery bears the vision that the Lord has entrusted to this age."

(not sure how WL's anecdote "proves" anything, but what else is new with this guy)
WOW Trapped - I've been waiting for this since the previous post on this thread almost 7 years ago! Ha ha - not really. But thanks for finding that quote! And I will add my testimony to "the record." I heard this about ones leaving the LC (loosing health/bad things happening/not going on with the Lord, etc.) in more than one training in the 1970s & 80s . I know, because it left a distinct impression of fear and condemnation on me that the Lord eventually freed me from.

I'm also here to testify that this kind of speaking from WL and others was 100% HOGWASH! The Lord does not operate like this and this is impugning His character and loving purpose toward us. I will also testify once again, that my growth in the Lord has continued much better after leaving the whole LSM/LC thing!
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Old 06-05-2020, 03:33 AM   #77
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As far as "inability to go on with the Lord", here's a real doozy from Mr. Benson Phillips:
ďIn any case, do not leave the Lordís recovery. I can assure you that if you go away from the Lordís recovery, you will have no way for the process of sanctification to go forward within you. Instead, you will just enter into a bankrupt situation. I know of no one who has left the Lordís recovery and today is a great spiritual person on the earth. The sanctification process is carried out in the Lordís recoveryĒ
(The Ministry Magazine Vol. 8, No. 1 Page 189, first paragraph) ...
The classic.
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Old 06-05-2020, 09:10 AM   #78
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Default Re: Leaving the LRC has consequences....

Some of you may have even considered that you should leave the church life. Yet you realized that if you left, it would be terrible. (Perfecting Training, Chapter 19, Section 3)

Once we lose the church, we will lose the power in our gospel preaching. Can there be any power in the visitation carried out by those who have left the church? There will not be much power, because those who are visiting have severed themselves from the Body. (Taking Christ as Our Person for the Church Life, Chapter 14, Section 3)

However, some have tried to pour cold water on this truth and have even left the church. They not only have lost the blessing of the church, but they have fallen to the point that they even oppose the blessings that God is bestowing on the church. However, once a person leaves this ground, he begins to oppose the blessings received by the church. It is a strange thing that when a person leaves the ground of the church, regardless of what the Lord has done in the church and regardless of what happens in the church, he can only criticize and oppose. This is a pitiful situation. This indicates that in order to receive God's shepherding, we must be in the church. Once we lose the church, we lose the Lord's shepherding. In contrast, a person loses the blessing when he loses the ground of the church. (Taking Christ as Our Person for the Church Life, Chapter 14, Section 2)

We have observed one thing over the years: when a person is in the church, he is blessed, but when he leaves the church, he loses the blessing. Over the past nearly forty years, every person who has left the ground and the practical living of the church has lost the Lord's blessing, even if his reasons were justifiable. Regardless of how much we feel that we are right and that the church is wrong, once we separate ourselves from the church, there are serious consequences. (Taking Christ as Our Person for the Church Life, Chapter 14, Section 1)

But it is quite a different matter to leave the church. If you forsake the church, your joy will disappear and will not return until you return to God's testimony. I do not say this lightly. Without exception, those who have left the church have lost their joy. (Life-Study of Genesis, Chapter 54, Section 2)

If you leave the church life, you will be defeated. Like a piece of driftwood that cannot control its direction but is carried along by the current, you will drift with the tide of this age and float downward until you find yourself in a wicked city. (Life-Study of Genesis, Chapter 54, Section 3)

, I know of many cases of those who experienced the very opposite of this as a result of leaving the church life. Their conscience began to lose its function, and the negative and worldly things they had put off gradually returned. The Genuine Ground of Oneness, Chapter 3, Section 5)

If you check with those who have left the church life, you will find that they have been deprived of the enjoyment of the all-inclusive Christ (Life-Study of Colossians, Chapter 25, Section 2)

Whoever is for the church has the best marriage life, but the family life and the marriage life of those who have left the church go downhill. (Elders' Training, Book 03: The Way to Carry Out the Vision, Chapter 6, Section 1)

Hence, for a believer to leave the church is a kind of punishment. Once a person stops meeting with the church for two or three weeks, immediately he stops growing. If he does not meet for two years, he will become like a child again. If he stops attending the meetings for another three years, he will be nearly finished in his spiritual life. (Truth, Life, the Church, and the Gospel—The Four Great Pillars in the Lord's Recovery, Chapter 9, Section 2)
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Old 06-05-2020, 09:21 AM   #79
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Hence, for a believer to leave the church is a kind of punishment. Once a person stops meeting with the church for two or three weeks, immediately he stops growing. If he does not meet for two years, he will become like a child again. If he stops attending the meetings for another three years, he will be nearly finished in his spiritual life. (Truth, Life, the Church, and the Gospel—The Four Great Pillars in the Lord's Recovery, Chapter 9, Section 2)
There is some truth to all you quoted here, if we don't consider the "church" here as equaling the LC. That is, if we forsake the assembling of ourselves together, there is definitely reduced growth for us I think. That's because believers were not created as Lone Rangers, but rather as members of the body.

Of course, in the context this was originally shared in, it was supposed to mean if you left the LC, then you would loose-out majorly. This is completely untrue.
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Old 06-05-2020, 12:12 PM   #80
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Default Re: Leaving the LRC has consequences....

When reading through these WL quotes, something caught my attention. It's almost as if WL admitted that leaving the "church life" was something that plenty of people in the LC have thought about. And of course he never ventured near that subject of why people would be thinking about doing that in the first place.

Here's one of the main problems with the LC - they insist on doing things in a very specific and particular way. There is no room for flexibility, opinions or dissent. In any such environment, there is going to be a large amount of turnover. LC history attests to this. Who knows how many tens of thousands of members have left over the years.

So the real thing that is leading people to have the consideration of whether or not to leave is the inflexibility of the LC. That's not the fault of the rank and file members, but the fault of the people who are in charge. So it's obviously wrong when any group tries to imply that leaving may have consequences. It becomes downright abusive when they make that kind of suggestion in an environment that few people would even want to be a part of.
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Old 06-05-2020, 12:36 PM   #81
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Default Re: Leaving the LRC has consequences....

Good job by Raptor on the quotes.

"Some of you may have even considered that you should leave the church life."

Now, is this the speaking from a great spiritual person on the earth (Benson Philips' term)? Or is it fear-based control freak? Welcome to the Local Church, aka the Gulag Archipelago.
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Old 08-07-2020, 12:42 PM   #82
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I heard this from RG. BTW I left the LRC 14 years ago (cough, cough) and am just barely hanging on (cough, cough).
Omg! Me too, so sick, the sickest... In reality I have never been more physically, mentally, or emotionally sound. I am happy, accepted, successful, I am no longer crippled by constant fear. I stayed for years longer than I should have, purely out of fear of what I was told would happen to me when I left. I was miserable, isolated and bullied by the cliquish sisters in my locality, and dismissed and ignored by everyone else. It took so much strength to leave everything I had known behind me, especially because I’d been told I would face pain, death, and dissolution outside. I did not, the healing began almost immediately once the toxicity was no longer present. If I could change anything, I wish I’d left years earlier. And I’m only posting because I ran across this link and I feel leaving success stories are hidden and never shared. There are people I had been told were dead because they left that I found our were alive and happy. Which is seriously messed up.
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Old 08-08-2020, 05:15 PM   #83
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Omg! Me too, so sick, the sickest... In reality I have never been more physically, mentally, or emotionally sound. I am happy, accepted, successful, I am no longer crippled by constant fear. I stayed for years longer than I should have, purely out of fear of what I was told would happen to me when I left. I was miserable, isolated and bullied by the cliquish sisters in my locality, and dismissed and ignored by everyone else. It took so much strength to leave everything I had known behind me, especially because Iíd been told I would face pain, death, and dissolution outside. I did not, the healing began almost immediately once the toxicity was no longer present. If I could change anything, I wish Iíd left years earlier. And Iím only posting because I ran across this link and I feel leaving success stories are hidden and never shared. There are people I had been told were dead because they left that I found out were alive and happy. Which is seriously messed up.
to the bolded statement. That's shocking.

So glad you posted to leave a record here that people leave the LC, AND YET GOD DOESN'T LEAVE THEM! This is the best thing to see and hear for anyone in and struggling. Continuing on happy and healthy and loving God and your neighbor......more and more LCers need to see it and be aware of it. They are being lied to!
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Old 08-10-2020, 01:09 PM   #84
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As far as "physical/health consequences", I doubt you are going to find anything in writing and furthermore, this kind of talk was more a phenomenon back in the 70s, so you will have to look to some us oldie-but-goodie dinosaurs to confirm this.
I was in Church in Anaheim for a period of time and attended few largest conferences but Praise the Lord, I am Free from LC. While i was in CIA (Church in Anahiem) I heard one of leading brother said "In any case, do not leave the Lord’s recovery. I can assure you that if you go away from the Lord’s recovery, you will have no way for the process of sanctification to go forward within you. Instead, you will just enter into a bankrupt situation. I know of no one who has left the Lord’s recovery and today is a great spiritual person on the earth. The sanctification process is carried out in the Lord’s recovery” during a Sunday gathering. Other leading brothers agreed and added "I can assure you that if you leave LC, your salvation will no longer exist and you will not be in Heaven with the Lord." They also said "Other Bible translations are useless and they do not have the same depth as Recovery version. If you read non-Recovery version, you need destroy non-Recovery Bible and ONLY Read / own Recovery version Bible"
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Old 08-11-2020, 12:39 AM   #85
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I was in Church in Anaheim for a period of time and attended few largest conferences but Praise the Lord, I am Free from LC. While i was in CIA (Church in Anahiem) I heard one of leading brother said "In any case, do not leave the Lordís recovery. I can assure you that if you go away from the Lordís recovery, you will have no way for the process of sanctification to go forward within you. Instead, you will just enter into a bankrupt situation. I know of no one who has left the Lordís recovery and today is a great spiritual person on the earth. The sanctification process is carried out in the Lordís recoveryĒ during a Sunday gathering. Other leading brothers agreed and added "I can assure you that if you leave LC, your salvation will no longer exist and you will not be in Heaven with the Lord." They also said "Other Bible translations are useless and they do not have the same depth as Recovery version. If you read non-Recovery version, you need destroy non-Recovery Bible and ONLY Read / own Recovery version Bible"
Sadly this hasn't changed. The co-workers are dead set against any other version of the Bible and any other Christian works, even if they speak out of the other side of their mouth and say otherwise.
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Old 08-11-2020, 07:41 AM   #86
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Default Re: Leaving the LRC has consequences....

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They also said "Other Bible translations are useless and they do not have the same depth as Recovery version. If you read non-Recovery version, you need destroy non-Recovery Bible and ONLY Read / own Recovery version Bible"
I used to think the RV was the best, and then I saw it was good, but not perfect. The RV is NOT a purely literal translation as some might want to think. And just like other translations, they used a certain "license" according to their understanding, to render passages accordingly.

The bottom-line is the RV is still read in our group (footnotes almost always excluded), but so are most all other versions (probably not the JW version . . .) - and the Greek/Hebrew is also reviewed closely. We're after original meaning, not another man's often flawed interpretation!
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Old 08-11-2020, 08:59 AM   #87
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Default Re: Leaving the LRC has consequences....

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I used to think the RV was the best, and then I saw it was good, but not perfect. The RV is NOT a purely literal translation as some might want to think. And just like other translations, they used a certain "license" according to their understanding, to render passages accordingly.

The bottom-line is the RV is still read in our group (footnotes almost always excluded), but so are most all other versions (e.g., probably not the JW version . . .) - and the Greek/Hebrew is also reviewed closely. We're after original meaning, not another man's often flawed interpretation!
The RecVer was built upon the "foundation" of the ASV 1901, which in conjunction with the Revised Version (British) of 1887, tremendously improved the existing KJV. Once the King (James, of course) designated his own translation as the "Authorized" version, it stifled all improvements for almost 300 years. Meanwhile, Archeologists exploring the Mideast (preserved by desert climates) had unearthed far superior and earlier manuscripts of the Greek Text. Textual scholars became familiar with the original language of Koine Greek. (I read an interesting book years ago, From Egyptian Rubbish Heaps, on this topic)

Based on this ASV foundation, the Rec Vers (both Ingalls and Robichaux), the NASB, and others are built. Often I read the WEB, the World English Bible, mainly out of familiarity with the ASV "family" of versions.

Below is a chart of various English Versions which display various methods of translation style. To the far left would also be Knoch's Concordant Version. To the far right would be The Living Bible, which I was reading when I was wonderfully saved. Many new Christians started on the right, and slowly moved left over time. Except for obviously heretical versions, I believe all versions are pleasing to the Lord, as His desire is that all could know His word.

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Old 08-11-2020, 09:13 AM   #88
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Default Re: Leaving the LRC has consequences....

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Below is a chart of various English Versions which display various methods of translation style. To the far left would also be Knoch's Concordant Version. To the far right would be The Living Bible, which I was reading when I was wonderfully saved. Many new Christians started on the right, and slowly moved left over time. Except for obviously heretical versions, I believe all versions are pleasing to the Lord, as His desire is that all could know His word.

Thanks for sharing that. It's hard to make out everything on that chart - is the RecV in there?

I typically use the New American Standard because of it's reputation for strong adherence to the original. However, even with it I've found things that didn't seem to be in the Greek. Just this weekend I looked up something in Ephesians 5 in the Greek, and didn't agree with how the NASB translated it at all! Therefore, I find myself going to an interlinear more and more (which I have on my phone BTW).
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Old 08-11-2020, 12:05 PM   #89
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Default Staying in the LRC has consequences....

The classic threats and warnings to those who would leave the Local Churches, I believe, are a curse. The consequences of staying in the Local Churches are real and detrimental to your walk with the Lord. I don't like the name LRC - Lord's Recovery Churches. I don't believe the Lord has put His name there as the church belonging to him. And I don't believe there is anything there being "recovered."

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Old 08-11-2020, 01:03 PM   #90
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Default Re: Staying in the LRC has consequences....

I'm not sure if I would call it a curse. It is however a manipulative scare tactic, instilling fear into the once love bombed congregants. The same tactic that Jezebel used on Ahab.

I totally agree though, the consequences of staying in the LC are detrimental to your walk with the Lord. Staying in the LC will make you doubt what the Holy Spirit may be speaking to you. It leaves you confused. And God is not the author of confusion.

Oh.. and back in the early 70s the church was never called the Lord's recovery. That was created in late 1975/76 if memory serves me right.

Also. Everyone including Lee called Sunday, SUNDAY..not 'the Lord's day'. When I first came into the LC, it was drilled into us 'we were not legalistic. We went by 'LIFE'." So when we were told to stop using the word Sunday but call it 'the Lord's day', red flags started spiking up.

This forum is proof that there is LIFE and more importantly LOVE outside the confinements of the LC indoctrination. And it gives people HOPE and courage to leave the LC as the LORD leads. IF He wants you to stay then stay.
Just be sure it is the Holy Spirit telling you to stay. He may have reasons we don't understand.

Cheers and Blessings to all.
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The classic threats and warnings to those who would leave the Local Churches, I believe, are a curse. The consequences of staying in the Local Churches are real and detrimental to your walk with the Lord. I don't like the name LRC - Lord's Recovery Churches. I don't believe the Lord has put His name there as the church belonging to him. And I don't believe there is anything there being "recovered."

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Old 08-11-2020, 01:05 PM   #91
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Default Re: Leaving the LRC has consequences....

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Thanks for sharing that. It's hard to make out everything on that chart - is the RecV in there?

I typically use the New American Standard because of it's reputation for strong adherence to the original. However, even with it I've found things that didn't seem to be in the Greek. Just this weekend I looked up something in Ephesians 5 in the Greek, and didn't agree with how the NASB translated it at all! Therefore, I find myself going to an interlinear more and more (which I have on my phone BTW).
If you right-click that image, then press "View Image," and then increase the size of the image, it is a little easier to see.

A simple search of "bible translation charts" will also yield many more similar charts. It's good to understand the various translation methods -- literal concordant, word for word, thought for thought, paraphrased, amplified, etc. No method is perfect, e.g. idioms just don't translate well.

The Recovery Version is NOT there. I could not find it on any chart. Perhaps because they trash every other version. Perhaps because of the way they treated John Ingalls. Perhaps because it appears to be a Bible for addicts. Or perhaps the greater body of Christ just finds no value there.
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