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Old 01-04-2014, 11:08 AM   #1
UntoHim
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Default Regarding deleted thread "Religious Trauma Syndrome"

Regarding deleted thread "Religious Trauma Syndrome" opened by awareness.

I try to be as "liberal" as I can when it comes to editing and deleting posts and threads, however I have made it perfectly clear, I believe, that this forum is not a place to question and/or challenge the basic tenets of the Christian faith. Harold is very aware of this but is constantly pushing the boundaries to see how far he can go. The references he gave were blatant attacks upon the Christian faith (albeit thinly disguised as helping those to exit "fundamentalism"), and thus are not acceptable discussion fodder for our venue.

The answers that will help our wayward brothers and sisters in the Local Church movement cannot be found in the world of humanism, psychology or even in liberal Christianity - the answers are in the living and abiding Word of God. Our Savior, in his high priestly prayer in John 17, declared as much: "Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth" The people referenced by awareness are steering hurt and deceived people away from the truth, the truth as it is clearly and strongly presented in the Bible. They are taking people "from the frying pan to the fire"....in some cases maybe literally.
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Old 01-04-2014, 12:17 PM   #2
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Default Re: Regarding deleted thread "Religious Trauma Syndrome"

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Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
Regarding deleted thread "Religious Trauma Syndrome" opened by awareness.

I try to be as "liberal" as I can when it comes to editing and deleting posts and threads, however I have made it perfectly clear, I believe, that this forum is not a place to question and/or challenge the basic tenets of the Christian faith. Harold is very aware of this but is constantly pushing the boundaries to see how far he can go. The references he gave were blatant attacks upon the Christian faith (albeit thinly disguised as helping those to exit "fundamentalism"), and thus are not acceptable discussion fodder for our venue.

The answers that will help our wayward brothers and sisters in the Local Church movement cannot be found in the world of humanism, psychology or even in liberal Christianity - the answers are in the living and abiding Word of God. Our Savior, in his high priestly prayer in John 17, declared as much: "Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth" The people referenced by awareness are steering hurt and deceived people away from the truth, the truth as it is clearly and strongly presented in the Bible. They are taking people "from the frying pan to the fire"....in some cases maybe literally.
The truth is in all branches of Christianity there are those abusing power in some way or another. And fundamentalism is no exception. We have around here, little independent Baptist churches that are little cults. I know cuz I've had family members abused by such groups.

Also there are those that have been traumatized by coming out of the LC. I know cuz I personally know some.

And so taking your dogmatic stand is not considering the least of these. In short your dogmatism is not Christian. It's Pharisaic legalism. So be it. It's your forum. Who really cares about the hurting ones anyway? As usual, doctrine trumps such concerns ... and if they don't buy the doctrine, they deserve to hurt and be cast aside. Because, we're right and they're wrong. To hell with them ... and me too, for pushing boundaries, for caring.
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Old 01-04-2014, 05:45 PM   #3
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Default Re: Regarding deleted thread "Religious Trauma Syndrome"

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Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post

The people referenced by awareness are steering hurt and deceived people away from the truth, the truth as it is clearly and strongly presented in the Bible.
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The truth is in all branches of Christianity there are those abusing power in some way or another. And fundamentalism is no exception ...

And so taking your dogmatic stand is not considering the least of these. In short your dogmatism is not Christian. It's Pharisaic legalism.
I guess I missed the fireworks show.

I agree with awareness that "in all branches of Christianity there are those abusing power." The Lord Jesus rebuked the hypocrites mercilessly in front of all of God's people. Jesus warned us repeatedly about ruling like the Gentiles, lording it over the flock of God. He promised a millstone around the neck of those who stumble the little ones.

So what should our response be?

We must cling to the Lord by faith and love, and treasure the truth in His word. We must properly discern which leaders should be our patterns. I'm not saying this is easy, but after our stint in the Recovery, we have learned this is the narrow way we must proceed by.

For UntoHim to decide that this forum will espouse the common faith passed down to us should not be construed as dogmatism akin to the ways of abusive leaders. UntoHim is not pushing his own private beliefs and practices here, he is simply upholding the truths we all share in Christ.
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Old 01-05-2014, 01:39 AM   #4
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Default Re: Regarding deleted thread "Religious Trauma Syndrome"

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I guess I missed the fireworks show.

I agree with awareness that "in all branches of Christianity there are those abusing power." The Lord Jesus rebuked the hypocrites mercilessly in front of all of God's people. Jesus warned us repeatedly about ruling like the Gentiles, lording it over the flock of God. He promised a millstone around the neck of those who stumble the little ones.

So what should our response be?

We must cling to the Lord by faith and love, and treasure the truth in His word. We must properly discern which leaders should be our patterns. I'm not saying this is easy, but after our stint in the Recovery, we have learned this is the narrow way we must proceed by.

For UntoHim to decide that this forum will espouse the common faith passed down to us should not be construed as dogmatism akin to the ways of abusive leaders. UntoHim is not pushing his own private beliefs and practices here, he is simply upholding the truths we all share in Christ.
I guess, then, I'm too accommodating to those suffering internal trauma from their LC involvement.

One brother I grew close to in the C. in Ft. Lauderdale left the mess caused by Mel Porter's abuse of authority in Ft. Lauderdale and moved to Anaheim, to be at the center of the fount of the flows coming out of Anaheim.

Thanks to Bill Mallon, that I bumped into while repairing a roof after hurricane Andrew in Miami, I hooked up with this brother, and got the lowdown of what happened after he left for Anaheim.

He told me, his church life didn't get better in Anaheim. In fact it got much worse. The cognitive dissonance, of the difference between what's being claimed from the stage (pulpit-Lee), and what was really going on, or not going on, turns out, was to much for him to bear.

He told me he felt like he was losing his mind. He had to do something. So he moved to Portland Oregon, to get away from the mental pressures he was under in Anaheim.

He told me in Portland because of the mental pressures he was experiencing, he had to let go of everything, the Bible, praying, meetings, and everything related to the local church life, or God even, because it was causing him to lose his mind.

The story from there gets much worse. I won't go on.

The point of this actual example, and testimony is this:

Telling this brother :

Quote:
The answers that will help our wayward brothers and sisters in the Local Church movement cannot be found in the world of humanism, psychology or even in liberal Christianity - the answers are in the living and abiding Word of God. Our Savior, in his high priestly prayer in John 17, declared as much: "Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth" The people referenced by awareness are steering hurt and deceived people away from the truth, the truth as it is clearly and strongly presented in the Bible. They are taking people "from the frying pan to the fire"....in some cases maybe literally.
Is gonna just make matters worse. It's not gonna help.

The truth is, if we get sick we go to the doctor. We don't consider doing that as "the world of humanism."

When you are sick you seek treatment with the best doctor to treat the illness.

And why shame someone for needing help from a psychiatrist (a DOCTOR of the mind)?

Look, I agree "Religious Trauma Syndrome," sounds hokey. I doubt it will ever make the DSM (the shrink bible - The Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders). But it addresses real problems, usually from controlling authoritarian religious systems (like the LRC ) some have experienced in some, not all, religious groups.
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Old 01-05-2014, 07:26 AM   #5
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Default Re: Regarding deleted thread "Religious Trauma Syndrome"

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Originally Posted by awareness View Post
The truth is, if we get sick we go to the doctor. We don't consider doing that as "the world of humanism."

When you are sick you seek treatment with the best doctor to treat the illness.

And why shame someone for needing help from a psychiatrist (a DOCTOR of the mind)?
I don't think this line of reasoning brings former members to THE solution they need. I for one have seen the tragedies and horror stories of those ones who started seeing psychiatric DOCTORS, thinking they could help, only to end up hooked on prescription drugs, no better than they were before, and taking more drugs to counteract the side-effects of the original meds. Yesterday's wonder drugs (think Risperdal) are today only making the lawyers wealthy.

I am not negating any of the positives some Christians have experienced. In this regard even LSM shot themselves in the foot. Their most widely used gospel tract, written by Andrew Yu, translated into every language, and used extensively in their FTT's, "The Mystery of Human Life," contains the following ...
For problems of the body one may see a doctor.
For problems of the mind one may visit a psychiatrist.
Yet only God can solve the problems of the spirit.

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Old 01-05-2014, 11:19 AM   #6
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Default Re: Regarding deleted thread "Religious Trauma Syndrome"

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I don't think this line of reasoning brings former members to THE solution they need. I for one have seen the tragedies and horror stories of those ones who started seeing psychiatric DOCTORS, thinking they could help, only to end up hooked on prescription drugs, no better than they were before, and taking more drugs to counteract the side-effects of the original meds. Yesterday's wonder drugs (think Risperdal) are today only making the lawyers wealthy.

I am not negating any of the positives some Christians have experienced. In this regard even LSM shot themselves in the foot. Their most widely used gospel tract, written by Andrew Yu, translated into every language, and used extensively in their FTT's, "The Mystery of Human Life," contains the following ...
For problems of the body one may see a doctor.
For problems of the mind one may visit a psychiatrist.
Yet only God can solve the problems of the spirit.

Good response bro Ohio. I've seen it too. It's almost, at least in some cases, more abuse piled on existing abuse, and not helpful at all. Untohim is right about it being misleading, into more trouble, in some cases.

But when you are sick you seek treatment. And that can be guesswork.

One brother I know, that grew up in the LC, and left 4 yrs ago, is having problems finding the proper treatment to help him deal with the psychological consequences of growing up in the controlling, dependency inculcating, local church.

At times, he says, in group therapy, he encounters cult triggers, that throws him into panic attacks.

And doing things like quote scriptures, or telling him Jesus will fix him, is just such triggers.

If you love this brother, as I do, the last thing you'll do is wax dogmatic on him, if you are compassionate and empathetic, that is. In fact, laying the truth on him, as law, is cruel and dispassionate.

Sometimes to get free of the local church programming it's necessary to dump it all, and start over.
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Old 01-05-2014, 01:27 PM   #7
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Default Re: Regarding deleted thread "Religious Trauma Syndrome"

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Sometimes to get free of the local church programming it's necessary to dump it all, and start over.
Part of this local church programming is a dependency on the ministry LSM publishes. The Christian churchlife begins and ends with the ministry. Without this ministry, there is no churchlife. This programming could explain why brothers and sisters cannot function outside the local churches religious practices.
The concept you can drop the ministry and just take the Word is not considered. I find the Word far more nourishing than any LSM publication.
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Old 01-05-2014, 02:37 PM   #8
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Default Re: Regarding deleted thread "Religious Trauma Syndrome"

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And doing things like quote scriptures, or telling him Jesus will fix him, is just such triggers.

If you love this brother, as I do, the last thing you'll do is wax dogmatic on him, if you are compassionate and empathetic, that is. In fact, laying the truth on him, as law, is cruel and dispassionate.

Sometimes to get free of the local church programming it's necessary to dump it all, and start over.
There have been some cold, heartless posts on this forum from time to time, but I have not seen that from the moderators on this forum. But you are right, it can be the legalistic members of one's own family who can cause the most damage. Instead of displaying the love of God, and compassionately caring for their own like the Good Samaritan, religious folks can "wax dogmatic" and make the victim seem even more helpless and hopeless.

This is why I have repeatedly condemned Witness Lee's pathetic attitude towards the rest of the body of Christ. He trained all his followers to be judgaholics like himself. His was a ministry of condemnation, and he has successfully passed on his judgmental ways to all of his followers. Thus the Recovery is mostly void of all "good works," which we were created for, which God has prepared beforehand, and that we should walk in.
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Old 01-06-2014, 08:13 AM   #9
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Default Re: Regarding deleted thread "Religious Trauma Syndrome"

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Sometimes to get free of the local church programming it's necessary to dump it all, and start over.
I seriously doubt this is true. But it's one of those statements that is very hard to prove or disprove.

Also, just exactly is one getting "freed" into? If you are getting freed from the frying pan into the fire what have you really gained? If you are getting freed from a lie you dislike to one you do like you've probably actually moved into greater darkness (Matt 6:23).

I just don't buy this scorched earth mentality of making it one's life goal to get "free" of all local church influence. That is a waste of time and effort. Just follow Jesus. He'll remove what he wants to remove. Don't turn yourself into Don Quixote when it comes to LC. You'll start seeing windmills everywhere, including in orthodoxy.

If you make "freedom" your goal you'll just end up in bondage to your pursuit of freedom.
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Old 01-06-2014, 09:08 AM   #10
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Default Re: Regarding deleted thread "Religious Trauma Syndrome"

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I just don't buy this scorched earth mentality of making it one's life goal to get "free" of all local church influence. That is a waste of time and effort. Just follow Jesus. He'll remove what he wants to remove. Don't turn yourself into Don Quixote when it comes to LC. You'll start seeing windmills everywhere, including in orthodoxy.
I believe scripture teaches this also. Although Jesus taught that leaven ruins the whole lump, the NT also teaches that we can remove leaven:

1 Cor 5:7
"Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed."

I think those leaving the LCs would do well to try to figure out what leaven was in WLee's ministry and try to remove it.

For me much of the leaven in WLee's ministry was over-emphasis and expounding on things that weren't all that significant (e.g. God's economy), while skipping over things that really were important like the commands Jesus gave his disciples to follow and re-emphasized during the great comission.

Matt 28:19-20
Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[b] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

These are things like mercy, loving your enemies, forgiving others, taking your cross etc.

"But he said, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and keep it!” - Luke 11:28

WLee not unlike many other hyper grace teachers who have an unbalanced fear of legalism emphasized "eating Jesus" while totally ignoring the command in the NT to be "doers of the word" (Luke 11:28, James 1:22, Romans 2:13) hence he led many including himself to be deceived. WLee misunderstood that it's not that we use our flesh to practice righteousness, but when we simply desire to God's will, the Holy Spirit who came into us when we were born again empowers us to do so.
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Old 01-06-2014, 09:37 AM   #11
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Default Re: Regarding deleted thread "Religious Trauma Syndrome"

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I believe scripture teaches this also. Although Jesus taught that leaven ruins the whole lump, the NT also teaches that we can remove leaven:

1 Cor 5:7
"Cleanse out the old leaven that you may be a new lump, as you really are unleavened. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed."

I think those leaving the LCs would do well to try to figure out what leaven was in WLee's ministry and try to remove it.
I doubt the Apostles would advise anyone to "dump it all" (by which awareness meant dumping all the Christian faith to start from scratch) in order to purge leaven.

Further, I do not believe that the Lord's plan for anyone is to spend the rest of their natural existence picking the nits of "local church programming" from their consciousness. By all means identify leaven, but don't become obsessed with leaven identification. Move on. Get on with serving God in a positive way.

I think some ex-local churchers tend to blame too many of their problems on the influence of the local church. They think they would be much happier, well-adjusted, and so forth, if they had never been in the local church. I know I've bought this in the past. I've had to remind myself I was pretty messed up going into the LC. Certainly the LC deserves some blame for some problems I've had to deal with. But I'm responsible for many I would like to blame on the LC. At some point you have to be accountable for what you are. Blaming your parents or a bad teacher or the LC for your problems is a victim's mentality, and at some point it's a cop-out. Eventually one has to pull up one's pants and move on. Accepting responsibility is actually empowering.
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Old 01-06-2014, 09:51 AM   #12
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Default Re: Regarding deleted thread "Religious Trauma Syndrome"

Simply put, if the LC is responsible for messing me up, I'm responsible for making something of my life post-LC. The LC certainly isn't going to try and fix me, and there are no rewards for spending the remainder of my life griping about my experiences*.


*I am fully aware that many of you "gripe" in order to help others, and I'm totally okay with that.
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Old 01-06-2014, 10:02 AM   #13
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Default Re: Regarding deleted thread "Religious Trauma Syndrome"

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Simply put, if the LC is responsible for messing me up, I'm responsible for making something of my life post-LC. The LC certainly isn't going to try and fix me, and there are no rewards for spending the remainder of my life griping about my experiences*.
I agree we can't place blame solely on the LC system because of the many warnings God gave us in his word concerning leaven and false teachers/teachings. In the end we all have to choose whether or not to obey Our Shepherd's voice or the voice of another.

I'm ashamed I was deceived for so long in my youth and it was really my own fault for not taking God's word seriously and choosing to believe things that were spoon fed to me without being a good berean.

1 John 2:27 NLT
But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don't need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true--it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ.
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Old 01-06-2014, 10:14 AM   #14
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Default Re: Regarding deleted thread "Religious Trauma Syndrome"

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Sometimes to get free of the local church programming it's necessary to dump it all, and start over.
I 'hear' you Harold. However... no matter HOW bad our religious experience has been, we can NEVER, EVER dump our Lord Jesus. IF we dump Him completely then we were never His.

But there is HOPE because even the prodigal son dumped his Father. He also demanded his inheritance before he split. AND his Father gave it to him!!! AND YET, we know the story...after having "dumped it all", dumping his Father, dumping his home, dumping his inheritance, the kid returned very humbly back to his Father. And his Father LOVINGLY took him back in.

WE need to be showered and feel HIS LOVE. GOD IS LOVE. THAT IS IN THE BIBLE. If we have the Love of our Heavenly Father, His Son & His Spirit in us, then we need to shower people with God's LOVE for He showers us with HIS.

1 JOHN 4:8
He who does not LOVE does not know God, for God is LOVE.

Shalom & blessings in Christ Jesus whom we LOVE!
Carol
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Old 01-06-2014, 10:30 AM   #15
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Default Re: Regarding deleted thread "Religious Trauma Syndrome"

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I think some ex-local churchers tend to blame too many of their problems on the influence of the local church. They think they would be much happier, well-adjusted, and so forth, if they had never been in the local church. I know I've bought this in the past. I've had to remind myself I was pretty messed up going into the LC. Certainly the LC deserves some blame for some problems I've had to deal with. But I'm responsible for many I would like to blame on the LC. At some point you have to be accountable for what you are.
There is no way that I can honestly say that the LC has not helped me to grow in Christ and to grow humanly. Just the other day I commented to another ex-LC friend about the LC really helped me to speak for the Lord, overcoming mountains of self-consciousness, stage-fright, stunted articulation, and the like. How could I ever begin to "dump" all the Biblical knowledge I had accumulated during my decades in the Recovery?

And I should apologize to all the readers lest they somehow got the impression from my numerous posts that prior to the LC, I was a decent, upright, wholesome, well-mannered, sober, law-abiding citizen, full of potential, since I was not. One telling memory I have, just days after I was saved: a complete stranger at work, one of many young people at my employ, happened to see me and said completely out of the blue, "first time I seen you straight!" I can't imagine what others thought.

Stories like this prevent me from ever regretting my salvation in Christ, or my early days in the LC. God was too real to deny. And this explains why I have firmly held onto the belief that something so good was brought to nothing by evil workers. Evil workers playing God, lording it over the saints, loving the glory of man, lusting for power and control, abusing the flock of God, etc. etc. has spoiled whatever good that God had done in the LC's.
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Old 01-06-2014, 11:11 AM   #16
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Default Re: Regarding deleted thread "Religious Trauma Syndrome"

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Sometimes to get free of the local church programming it's necessary to dump it all, and start over.
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Originally Posted by Igzy View Post
I seriously doubt this is true. But it's one of those statements that is very hard to prove or disprove.
I only made the statement because I personally know of actual cases.

Quote:
Also, just exactly is one getting "freed" into?
That's the critical question. In the cases I know of, freedom from an extreme disturbance of mind.

Quote:
If you are getting freed from the frying pan into the fire what have you really gained?
Talking about going from the frying pan into the fire, that's what the brother did when he left the C. in Ft. Lauderdale and went to Anaheim. Cuz he went from being disturbed in Ft. Lauderdale to losing his mind in Anaheim. Then he needed to be free from it all.

Quote:
If you make "freedom" your goal you'll just end up in bondage to your pursuit of freedom.
Of all that I personally know, that have left the LC, none of them ever claimed that they were making freedom their goal in life. Not unless by freedom you mean freedom from the local church. Everyone I know were too busy trying to hold everything together.

Some I know were unable to do that and are now alcoholics. In fact, the only elder in the C. in Ft. Lauderdale that I thought had genuine mature spiritual growth, ended up leaving his wife and six kids for the bottle.

It's not easy to come out of the local church, for those that I know of. But I don't know everyone that has come out of the LC, so I'm sure there those that have left that weren't disturbed of mind.
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Old 01-06-2014, 01:13 PM   #17
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Default Re: Regarding deleted thread "Religious Trauma Syndrome"

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There is no way that I can honestly say that the LC has not helped me to grow in Christ and to grow humanly. Just the other day I commented to another ex-LC friend about the LC really helped me to speak for the Lord, overcoming mountains of self-consciousness, stage-fright, stunted articulation, and the like. How could I ever begin to "dump" all the Biblical knowledge I had accumulated during my decades in the Recovery?

And I should apologize to all the readers lest they somehow got the impression from my numerous posts that prior to the LC, I was a decent, upright, wholesome, well-mannered, sober, law-abiding citizen, full of potential, since I was not. One telling memory I have, just days after I was saved: a complete stranger at work, one of many young people at my employ, happened to see me and said completely out of the blue, "first time I seen you straight!" I can't imagine what others thought.

Stories like this prevent me from ever regretting my salvation in Christ, or my early days in the LC. God was too real to deny. And this explains why I have firmly held onto the belief that something so good was brought to nothing by evil workers. Evil workers playing God, lording it over the saints, loving the glory of man, lusting for power and control, abusing the flock of God, etc. etc. has spoiled whatever good that God had done in the LC's.
Ohio and all,
Like you, I have shared time & time again how my experience in the LC was not bad either.

Before I got saved through the brethren in the LC, I was a pot toking, cigarette smoking, cussing 'champ in both english & spanish. There was a Christian sister who was not in the LC but worked w/the LC saints and me. They never approached her or she them. But one day in the break room, she told the Lord privately, there was absolutely NO HOPE for CAROL to get saved.

I don't know how long it was after she told the Lord that but I got saved there at work. I prayed with a brother from MY HEART. I asked the LORD JESUS to forgive me of my sins, to wash me in His Blood & to come inside me. I remember feeling my heart racing seconds before I prayed. When I did, the WIND of the SPIRIT came inside of me. "WHOOSH!" I will never forget that.

From that day on, I have RARELY ever cussed. I immediately had no desire for pot or cigs. My salvation was so strong, that the sister who saw my transformation joined the LC because of my transformation.

That is not to say while in the LC and afterwards I never struggled with sin. I did. The LC had nothing to do with my sin struggles. But in 2004, the Holy Spirit of God's Love set me free AT LAST !!!

Life in the LC in the late 60s', early 70's was quite different than it is today. If the LC then was like it is today, I am SURE no LC person would have approached me. I certainly would not have been considered "good material".

Thankfully GOD SEES US ALL AS GOOD MATERIAL!! Praise His Name. No matter how filthy we still are, we can approach Him LOVINGLY with a humble and a contrite heart. He will hold us IN His Arms, Love on us and heal us. What a GREAT GOD we have!!

Blessings all,
Carol
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Old 01-07-2014, 08:15 AM   #18
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I only made the statement because I personally know of actual cases.

That's the critical question. In the cases I know of, freedom from an extreme disturbance of mind.
I had to figure out that I was the type of person who let things bother me. In other words, my disturbance of mind was mostly brought on by how I reacted to things.

I've worried about money, my kids, my job, my place in the world, my health, my spiritual future, etc, etc. Doing so always makes me miserable psychologically. When I left the LC I worried about that. My point is I was to some extent responsible for my condition.

You can choose how you deal with things. Turning to alcoholism or atheism is not required, however my heart goes out to those who feel so desperate that they take those routes.

My suggestion to them would be start out by owning your feelings. Don't hide or run from them. Own them, acknowledge them, then walk through them to higher ground. They don't own you.

Feelings are simply reactions to thoughts. They are always rooted in some idea we hold. We tend to want to deal with the feeling. But the root is the thought the feeling was a reaction to. I used to say, "you shouldn't feel that way." But feelings themselves are neither right nor wrong; they are simply our reactions to our thoughts.

So we should always own our feelings, because they tell us what we are really thinking. Hiding from your feelings is simply hiding from yourself.
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Old 01-07-2014, 08:37 AM   #19
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I had to figure out that I was the type of person who let things bother me. In other words, my disturbance of mind was mostly brought on by how I reacted to things.

I've worried about money, my kids, my job, my place in the world, my health, my spiritual future, etc, etc. Doing so always makes me miserable psychologically. When I left the LC I worried about that. My point is I was to some extent responsible for my condition.

You can choose how you deal with things. Turning to alcoholism or atheism is not required, however my heart goes out to those who feel so desperate that they take those routes.

My suggestion to them would be start out by owning your feelings. Don't hide or run from them. Own them, acknowledge them, then walk through them to higher ground. They don't own you.

Feelings are simply reactions to thoughts. They are always rooted in some idea we hold. We tend to want to deal with the feeling. But the root is the thought the feeling was a reaction to. I used to say, "you shouldn't feel that way." But feelings themselves are neither right nor wrong; they are simply our reactions to our thoughts.

So we should always own our feelings, because they tell us what we are really thinking. Hiding from your feelings is simply hiding from yourself.
I learned this in spades when my son died. My wife and daughter ran off to drugs and drinking to deal with it.

But I waved my fist at God, and told Him no matter how much He hurt me I wasn't gonna run from the pain. I faced it head on.

My wife, now ex-wife, and daughter are still destroying their lives.

And here I am, on this local church forum. God must still be hurting me

Y'all may think I'm crazy, or some such, but I'm dealing as best I can.

Thanks for your sincere response Igzy.
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Old 01-07-2014, 12:26 PM   #20
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I learned this in spades when my son died. My wife and daughter ran off to drugs and drinking to deal with it.

But I waved my fist at God, and told Him no matter how much He hurt me I wasn't gonna run from the pain. I faced it head on.

My wife, now ex-wife, and daughter are still destroying their lives.

And here I am, on this local church forum. God must still be hurting me

Y'all may think I'm crazy, or some such, but I'm dealing as best I can.

Thanks for your sincere response Igzy.
Harold and all!
I can't believe I lost my reply to you !! I thought I had sent it through so now I have to start all over! What is strange but amazing is that it was on God's LOVE. For whatever reasons it did not go through and yet a new thread just began on LOVE VS PURITY which was the theme of my post!!

Back to square one:
In the last couple of weeks, I have been re-discovering God's LOVE. When I read your post, I had some revelation. Now if I can find the words I had!!

So here goes:
Over the years, the LORD has blessed me with so much understanding of WHO He is. Who He is as the Father, Who He is as the SON and Who HE is the Holy Spirit.

What I realized recently is that I am no better than a Christian who smokes, drinks and cusses.

I have learned He does not LOVE ME more because I do not drink, cuss or smoke. In fact He probably LOVES that person MORE because He sees and knows their pain. And they cannot bring themselves to TRUST in GOD's LOVE so they alienate themselves from HIM.

You, my dear friend Harold may wave your fist at HIM but your GOD and MINE is holding on to your fist and not letting you go! You may kick and scream all you want and all He is doing is drawing you closer to HIMSELF. One of these days He is going to grab you and hold you tight until you melt in His LOVING ARMS. He LOVES YOU SO VERY MUCH. AND HE LOVES YOUR EX AND YOUR DAUGHTER AS WELL.

And He is going to do the same with your ex and your daughter because HE LOVES THEM even if they don't think He does. They might think He is responsible for all their pain. But He is not. He cautioned us we would have tests, trials and tribulations. He also promised He would not forsake us or leave us because He LOVES US. We are HIS.

I am certain your son can hardly wait to see you, his mom and his sister again. The PAIN AND MEMORY will be all GONE. Behold GOD makes all things new!!
GOD IS LOVE. Our Lord Jesus is God. Our Lord Jesus is LOVE.

As for me, I realized I was measuring God's Love based on someone else's knowledge or 'material blessings'. I 'believed' God loved me BUT deep down I believed He loved other people more than He loved me. I did not feel as loved. I saw other people so 'blessed'. Blessed with great families, health, wealth, looks, a great job...very anointed in the Word... whatever it seemed to me.

So recently I have been going back to square ONE. Reading up on God's Love. GOD LOVES ME. HE REALLY REALLY LOVES ME AND He LOVES US ALL!! The Precious Blood of Jesus was shed to make us clean. We do not need to clean ourselves. His Blood does that FOR US! ALL WE NEED TO DO is LOVE our GOD with all our hearts, and our souls and our spirits.

We have become so judgmental and I am the chiefest of them! I got caught up in being more 'mature'. Well that happens but if we are 'mature' and don't have God's Love, what good am I to GOD? Thankfully, I have had God's LOVE in me all along. I could not be who I am today without His Precious Love.

What makes me different or sets me apart that makes me appear at least to myself is that I have learned to Trust in God's Love for me. I did not know it because I was looking at how God loved others 'more than me'. But I needed to reflect otherwise I was going to go down a long tunnel of insecurity and who knows what else! Now that I feel more assured, (still working on it) I have come to TRUST and BELIEVE He truly loves me.


Therefore He doesn't need to go after me like a lost forlorn sheep, as I am already with HIM, In His Presence. All He simply expects me to do is believe He LOVES ME and HIS LOVE is More than enough.

This post was similar to my original one but I think my original one was better ! Still I hope it brought you HOPE and Peace and Healing.

Blessings and with God's LOVE in me,
Carol
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Old 01-08-2014, 09:03 AM   #21
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I learned this in spades when my son died. My wife and daughter ran off to drugs and drinking to deal with it.

But I waved my fist at God, and told Him no matter how much He hurt me I wasn't gonna run from the pain. I faced it head on.

My wife, now ex-wife, and daughter are still destroying their lives.

And here I am, on this local church forum. God must still be hurting me

Y'all may think I'm crazy, or some such, but I'm dealing as best I can.

Thanks for your sincere response Igzy.
awareness, I didn't know you went through this. I'm so sorry for your loss.
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Old 01-08-2014, 11:27 PM   #22
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I learned this in spades when my son died. My wife and daughter ran off to drugs and drinking to deal with it.

But I waved my fist at God, and told Him no matter how much He hurt me I wasn't gonna run from the pain. I faced it head on.

My wife, now ex-wife, and daughter are still destroying their lives.

And here I am, on this local church forum. God must still be hurting me

Y'all may think I'm crazy, or some such, but I'm dealing as best I can.

Thanks for your sincere response Igzy.
Hi awareness, I don't have the depth of experience to grasp what you're going through, but I just wanted to share these verses with you.

Matthew 5:4
"Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted."

John 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 16:33
I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.

John 10:10
The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.
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Old 01-09-2014, 06:55 AM   #23
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Hi awareness, I don't have the depth of experience to grasp what you're going through, but I just wanted to share these verses with you.

Matthew 5:4
"Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted."

John 14:16
And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

John 16:33
I have said these things to you, that in me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation. But take heart; I have overcome the world.

John 10:10
The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.
Thanks BB. This is what got me thru it all ; the grief of the loss of my son, and also the loss of my wife and daughter. It was a living hell.

It also kept me from grabbing my shot gun and going up the road and blowing the heads off my wife and her meth head boyfriend, that use to be a friend (I thought). For months I couldn't get it out of my head and dreams. For months I prayed day and night fighting that urge. Then, one night while being tortured with the thought, the Lord came to me in my spirit and said, "Forgive them."

I did, and gained peace.
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Old 01-09-2014, 07:05 AM   #24
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Thanks BB. This is what got me thru it all ; the grief of the loss of my son, and also the loss of my wife and daughter. It was a living hell.

It also kept me from grabbing my shot gun and going up the road and blowing the heads off my wife and her meth head boyfriend, that use to be a friend (I thought). For months I couldn't get it out of my head and dreams. For months I prayed day and night fighting that urge. Then, one night while being tortured with the thought, the Lord came to me in my spirit and said, "Forgive them."

I did, and gained peace.
How precious to have experienced God's same love at Calvary!

You have tasted the same pain and anguish as our Savior when He gasped these words amidst labored breaths, "for they know not what they do."
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Old 01-09-2014, 09:33 AM   #25
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And doing things like quote scriptures, or telling him Jesus will fix him, is just such triggers.

If you love this brother, as I do, the last thing you'll do is wax dogmatic on him, if you are compassionate and empathetic, that is. In fact, laying the truth on him, as law, is cruel and dispassionate.

Sometimes to get free of the local church programming it's necessary to dump it all, and start over.
It took me a loooong time, post-LC, to receive people just the way the are. Remember that hymn, "Just as I am, without one plea/but that Thy blood was shed for me"? How come I expected God to receive me "just as I am" but I was always trying to throw my version of truth down everyone's throat?

It took me a long time, post-LC, to get over that reflexive practice. Kind of like awareness said, I basically had to dump it all, even becoming agnostic/semi-atheistic & full of denial and reasonings, and then discover faith all over again after sojourning in the darkness of my failed logic and ambitions. Little by little I remembered the Christ whom I'd once known and loved. And little by little I began to see how much God loves us. "Just as we are."

No, I'm not saying "Let us sin that grace may abound". I am saying that in the midst of our world of pain, shame, and confusion, that God sent His beloved Son. And this Son met us, right where we were. The only "ground" we had was failure and loss. But the Shepherd found us.
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Old 01-09-2014, 10:14 AM   #26
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It took me a loooong time, post-LC, to receive people just the way the are. Remember that hymn, "Just as I am, without one plea/but that Thy blood was shed for me"? How come I expected God to receive me "just as I am" but I was always trying to throw my version of truth down everyone's throat?

It took me a long time, post-LC, to get over that reflexive practice. Kind of like awareness said, I basically had to dump it all, even becoming agnostic/semi-atheistic & full of denial and reasonings, and then discover faith all over again after sojourning in the darkness of my failed logic and ambitions. Little by little I remembered the Christ whom I'd once known and loved. And little by little I began to see how much God loves us. "Just as we are."

No, I'm not saying "Let us sin that grace may abound". I am saying that in the midst of our world of pain, shame, and confusion, that God sent His beloved Son. And this Son met us, right where we were. The only "ground" we had was failure and loss. But the Shepherd found us.
This is my story too ! What a PATIENT, MERCIFUL, LOVING GOD we have. Why can't we ALL believers be like Him ? Full of Grace and Mercy and Love towards each other ?? and towards the lost?
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Old 09-06-2014, 07:34 AM   #27
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I learned this in spades when my son died. My wife and daughter ran off to drugs and drinking to deal with it.

But I waved my fist at God, and told Him no matter how much He hurt me I wasn't gonna run from the pain. I faced it head on.

My wife, now ex-wife, and daughter are still destroying their lives.

And here I am, on this local church forum. God must still be hurting me

Y'all may think I'm crazy, or some such, but I'm dealing as best I can.

Thanks for your sincere response Igzy.
Dear brother awareness,
Though I don't know you in person, when I read your post, I wept. There is no word can describe what you had gone through, yet you are still here, helping people like me. Though I don't know the content of the deleted thread, I'd like to say that psychological health is important. Scientific evidence of psychological counseling for mental illness has been established for decades (I think I saw ZEEK here has a background in psychology). My opinion is that it is not contradicting our Lord's work on earth. In ancient time, there was no psychology, the terms were "unclean spirits", "demons", etc. Now we classified them according to DSM-5/ICD. Marsha Linehan, a prominent psychologist and true believer, has saved so many patients with bpd through DBT. A local church brother once told me that there seemed to have an epidemic of mental illness going on in several local churches. I think we can be more observant on this issue.
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Old 09-06-2014, 10:53 AM   #28
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Dear brother awareness,
Though I don't know you in person, when I read your post, I wept. There is no word can describe what you had gone through, yet you are still here, helping people like me. Though I don't know the content of the deleted thread, I'd like to say that psychological health is important. Scientific evidence of psychological counseling for mental illness has been established for decades (I think I saw ZEEK here has a background in psychology). My opinion is that it is not contradicting our Lord's work on earth. In ancient time, there was no psychology, the terms were "unclean spirits", "demons", etc. Now we classified them according to DSM-5/ICD. Marsha Linehan, a prominent psychologist and true believer, has saved so many patients with bpd through DBT. A local church brother once told me that there seemed to have an epidemic of mental illness going on in several local churches. I think we can be more observant on this issue.
I have a masters degree in social work. I studied child and family psychotherapy on the masters level and worked closely with psychologists and psychiatrists for 37 years. Abnormal psychology and psychiatry are not exact sciences. The DSM-5/ICD does not take into account recent advances in neuroscience where there is currently a revolution in the understanding of the brain. Nevertheless, the medical model of psychopathology that is currently practiced is a significant advance over demonology and superstition in terms of science, efficacy and ethical standards. And, yes, there is plenty of evidence that abusive religious practices can have lasting effects on mental health. Although, Snapping the book that Dave cited is questionable in terms of the psychological theory it espouses, it does a good job describing the psychological trauma that can accompany abusive religious practices such as those in the Local Churches.
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Old 09-06-2014, 07:35 PM   #29
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Dear brother awareness,
Though I don't know you in person, when I read your post, I wept. There is no word can describe what you had gone through, yet you are still here, helping people like me. Though I don't know the content of the deleted thread, I'd like to say that psychological health is important. Scientific evidence of psychological counseling for mental illness has been established for decades (I think I saw ZEEK here has a background in psychology). My opinion is that it is not contradicting our Lord's work on earth. In ancient time, there was no psychology, the terms were "unclean spirits", "demons", etc. Now we classified them according to DSM-5/ICD. Marsha Linehan, a prominent psychologist and true believer, has saved so many patients with bpd through DBT. A local church brother once told me that there seemed to have an epidemic of mental illness going on in several local churches. I think we can be more observant on this issue.
Thanks Eph.

Imagine my surprise when at 13 yrs old my mother came home from a women's church meeting telling me they were going to visit Southern Baptist's at the mental asylum.

I went to my rm pondering what I heard. Southern Baptists in the loony bin? I was shocked. I was raised believing that the Southern Baptists were the only sane Christians on the earth. Now I learn that they can go loony. (Bro Zeek could prolly better describe it in professional terms, but I was a kid.)

I never forgot that. Sadly since, it more than appears that believing in Jesus is not a cure all. We need each other. Maybe that's why Jesus said what you do to the least you do to me.

When I was in the local church they never showed any concern for the least of these ; even while -- and prolly because of -- spouting and memorizing High Peak Doctrines, from the very mouthpiece of God, so claimed.

All my best friends are ex-LCers. I treasure them. Not a one of them think like me. Some of them are really "out there." One that was an elder in the LC is now a Native American Shaman. I love him. He's a walking smile and caring person, with a big heart. He cares more now than he did in the LC.

I suppose that's why I still care about my local church bothers and sisters. And I try to tell them as I see/saw it. Yes I can be blunt about it. I'm sure, after all I've said on these forums, Ron Kangas prolly wouldn't consider me a brother in the Lord any more, as he once told me many yrs after leaving, in email conversations.

So I'm no longer the patsy I once was. Kangas is my equal. He can be blended until the cows come home, I don't care, but it doesn't make him better than the least of these.

Mat 23:8-12 But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brothers. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called instructors, for you have one instructor, the Christ. The greatest among you shall be your servant. Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

The more they don't care for the least of these, not just spiritually but physically & psychologically, the more they will dry up and die ... but also, the more, like bro Ohio pointed out, they will damage and hurt everyone, even actually driving some crazy.
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Old 09-07-2014, 08:48 AM   #30
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Part of this local church programming is a dependency on the ministry LSM publishes. The Christian churchlife begins and ends with the ministry. Without this ministry, there is no churchlife. This programming could explain why brothers and sisters cannot function outside the local churches religious practices.
The concept you can drop the ministry and just take the Word is not considered. I find the Word far more nourishing than any LSM publication.
Loved this... (Sorry I'm slow and late or just too busy)
This is a gem!...the simplest and truest of all statements!
The problem seems to be following something other than God Himself, and Him taken SIMPLY in His word.
When I was a little girl and broken, I lay on my bed and recited the Lord's Prayer which was one of very few prayers I knew, being a Catholic and not having ever seen a Bible.
I could see by this little prayer that God was my Father. I could claim Him! He loved me! I could trust Him!
It wasn't very deep---WAIT--- It WAS deep! The deepest and most precious truth!
Without the knowledge of God as our Father any claim to "truth" will only entrap us, from which, the more deeply we get entangled the more confusion we'll have to break free from.
All we need is to go back to being a little child hearing the Father's love. We can't omit the Word of God. That is the our lifeline! If it's delivered in love, with prayer, and through loving acts it's the best one can do.
That being said, sometimes, when a child insists in indulging in unhealthy thinking patterns and words, he needs a little quarantining until he relents of his foolishness. We MUST be true to God's Word and stand for it IN LOVE at all times.
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Old 09-08-2014, 02:42 PM   #31
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When I was a little girl and broken, I lay on my bed and recited the Lord's Prayer which was one of very few prayers I knew, being a Catholic and not having ever seen a Bible. I could see by this little prayer that God was my Father. I could claim Him! He loved me! I could trust Him!

It wasn't very deep---WAIT--- It WAS deep! The deepest and most precious truth!
What a wonderful testimony of the Father's love!

Dancing, Thanks for sharing.
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