ZNP Blog -

[ZNPaaneah]

Introduction

The context of James is the early church. James emphasizes this context in his book when he says that we should not “have the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ with respect of persons”. The record in Acts and Galatians reveals a key human failing, we are prone to have the faith of Jesus “with respect of persons”. Imagine you are a new one, you are not sure what to believe. But, you know you can trust James, after all, he is the brother of Jesus and the son of the virgin Mary. In Acts and Galatians James had a big influence on the early church and what was recorded was not a positive one. James’ experience is as much a part of the context as Paul’s experience of persecuting Christians or Peter’s experience of denying the Lord. James experience of the early church respecting him according to who he was in the flesh is relevant for him to expose false prophets, to shut their mouths, and to help those who have wandered from the truth return to the normal church life. We might think that showing partiality is extremely rare. What is the teaching of slavery if not “having the faith of our Lord Jesus with respect of persons”? When John Adams was working on the declaration of Independence his wife mentioned the fact that women were not treated as equals. The Civil Rights movement and Women’s suffrage are both based on “having the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ with respect of persons”. Some justified slavery saying the slaves were descendants of Ham, the son of Noah that was cursed. That is, by definition, to be a “respecter of persons”. Arguments against women’s suffrage were that women were weaker, that they were too occupied with domestic duties, and that they were too stupid to bear the responsibilities of voting. Once again, this by definition, is to “hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ with respect of persons”. What about Nazi Germany where Jews were required to wear the star of David, were housed in Ghettos and then exterminated in camps. This is the logical extreme of what it is to be a “respecter of persons” and what it is to show partiality.

Paul told us that “their mouths must be stopped” regarding the false prophets. How do you accomplish that? James tells us that no man can “tame the tongue”. “Taming the tongue” or “shutting the mouths” is a work of faith. It is the book of James, as much as any other New Testament book that will equip you to stand against a false prophet by “taming their tongue”.

Why are Christians deceived by false prophets? Like any disease you need to know what the risk factors are, what steps do you need to take to protect yourself and what are the symptoms of those who are being led astray. How do you diagnose if you have been deceived? What is the number one safeguard against false prophets? How do you speak to someone who is deceived, how do you reach them? These are some of the issues addressed in the book of James. Many tempations can be examined: investment schemes (Bernie Madoff), national security (Benedict Arnold), elections (Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump) using the book of James. And the book is balanced, not only does it focus on false prophets but also on genuine faith. Orville and Wilbur Wright, Douglas Macarthur and Harry S. Truman are examples of people who were vilified as being false during their lifetime. These men reveal how difficult discerning the truth can be. James gives us a promise that if we lack wisdom we can ask God and He will give us this wisdom without upbraiding us. The book of James is the “perfect gift of God”. The New Covenant is about giving us a new heart, a heart of flesh. The book of James is about this new heart given to the genuine believers of Christ.

False prophets are “bullies”. Cults are characterized by bullying. How do you respond in a way that triumphs over bullies? This is an issue in schools and in the world, not just in the church. FDR and Marshall exemplified the way mentioned by James in their dealing with MacArthur, likewise Gandhi in his dealing with the British, and Mandela in his actions as President. Christians are destined to rule and reign with Jesus Christ and the book of James equips us to triumph over bullies.

What are the indicators that a man is genuine or false? James gives us a seven point checklist to discern. He also reveals the actions that should set off an alarm. How can a man who knows Jesus and ministers the word of God be a false prophet? James explains this and makes clear the matter of grace with three simple words. James also gives us the one thing, above all, that a believer should not do. Again, this can apply to a church, it can also apply to Germans living under Adolf Hitler, or investors considering an investment scheme from Bernie Madoff.

Finally, James explains how to return when you have wandered from the truth. The book is written to “the twelve tribes in the dispersion”. He identifies what led them astray, why they followed this false leader, and what is the path that leads back to a normal church life. It applies to traitors and scam artists of all kinds. James focus is on judging why you were deceived. This is not for us to judge others, but rather that we can remove the beam from our own eye.

2 Pet 2:15 Forsaking the right way, they have gone astray. They have followed the way of Balaam, the son of Beor, who loved gain from wrongdoing.

What is the path back to God? James gives us that path. The word “dispersion” refers to the pattern of distribution of individuals within a habitat. The kingdom of heaven is like a field where the Lord has distributed believers across this earth under His sovereignty. If these believers can root out the stony heart and take a heart of flesh, then there is no place left for God’s enemy. The Lord has prayed that we would all be one and overcome the world, and He has given us the book of James to help us according to His love and His purpose.

The truth is powerful whether or not you believe it. It did not matter that no one believed Wilbur and Orville Wright had built an airplane that could fly. They did not waste time arguing or debating. Instead Wilbur spent months rebuilding the plane damaged by the customs office and then in a demonstration lasting less than 5 minutes took off, circled the field and landed. Likewise, it didn’t matter that the British did not believe Gandhi when he said that they would pack up and leave on their own. It was the truth and it was what they did. However, for a false prophet his power is based on you “believing” his word. If you reject his word then he is powerless. For example, the followers of Hitler claimed that he “struck a chord with us, he uttered what was in the consciousness of all of us”. Charisma exists as an interaction between a speaker and an audience. Hitler told them what they wanted to hear. It is like a virus that needs a host to infect, without a host there is no life and no power. When we deal with our heart we will deal with the virus. As a rule James makes it clear we are not to judge our brother, however he also points out that teachers are subject to a “stricter judgement”. It is foolish to argue that the New Testament forbids us from judging teachings, that is akin to forbidding discernment, prudence or wisdom. Jesus tells the church in Thyatira that He has this against them, that they tolerate that woman Jezebel who teaches His believers to commit spiritual fornication. This book teaches us to discern the teachings and teachers, it doesn’t teach us to judge our brother.

2Pet 2:1 But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

I will reference my personal experience with the Local Church through some of the discussion on the book of James. This group was founded by Witness Lee, a coworker of Watchman Nee. Since some may not know this relatively small and obscure Christian group it is important to give you a little background of key issues, doctrines, events and people.

Watchman Nee

When Mao took over China Watchman Nee remained and sent Witness Lee to take “the recovery” to Taiwan. Watchman Nee died in prison after Richard Nixon asked about him. One incident that is critical to this book is understanding who Watchman Nee is (author of Sit, Walk, Stand and other books on the Bible). In China Watchman Nee established a new sect of Christianity based on his doctrine “The Ground of the Church”. This is a highly contentious doctrine and it is the foundation of his sect. This doctrine is based on the Old Testament typology of the Temple which was built on a specific ground. The place where Abraham offered up Isaac. Since James uses this as “the” example of being “saved by works of faith” it is really a cornerstone to understanding both the book of James and the sect of Watchman Nee. This is also the same ground where King David offered a burnt offering to stop the plague brought on by pride. This “plague brought on by pride” is also a critical component of both James and the issues I raise with Witness Lee. The doctrine of “The Minister of the Age” exemplifies the extent of this “plague brought on by pride”. As a result it is important to introduce these two doctrines. The other incident that is crucial is Watchman Nee’s being disciplined by the elders in Shanghai for having a mistress. Witness Lee taught (in speaking, but not in writing) that Watchman Nee was disciplined for living with a woman, but that the woman was his mother. This lie was critical in preserving Watchman Nee’s legacy as a man of God, and by extension Witness Lee’s legacy as his closest coworker.

Ground of the church

According to the “Ground of the Church” doctrine you cannot just build the church anywhere, it has to be built on the “proper” ground (just like the Temple in the Old Testament). The verses in the Old Testament are clear, specific, and difficult to ignore. However, for a doctrine as important and central as this (according to Witness Lee you cannot have the real oneness of the Body unless you are on the proper ground) the New Testament references used by Watchman Nee and Witness Lee are obscure and vague. It is based on these two New Testament verses:

Titus 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that were wanting, and appoint elders in every city, as I gave thee charge;

And

Acts 14:23 And when they had appointed for them elders in every church, and had prayed with fasting, they commended them to the Lord, on whom they had believed.

According to Nee and Lee, “appointing elders in every church” = “appointing elders in every city”. You could reasonably deduce that the boundaries for each missionary was geographic, perhaps they were given cities to work in. But these two verses become the basis to say that the proper ground of the church is the geographic boundary of a city. This inference is then supported by Nee and Lee by showing that anywhere in the New Testament when the word “church” is used it is associated with a single city, and when “churches” are used it is associated with a larger geographic region (church in Ephesus, churches of Galatia). Like any good lie it is based on the truth. It is true that the Old Testament Temple is a type of the church. It is also true that the ground that the church is built on is specific and important. This ground was purchased by Christ with his blood on the cross. To try and equate this ground with the boundaries of geographic cities is an insult to Jesus. This different gospel that they preach becomes very ugly when you look at the application. Based on this doctrine all Christian gatherings are divisive because they do not claim to be the church in that city. Any other name other than “church in _________” is an abomination. Only the elders of this group are legitimate, any other Christian leader that does not submit to their authority is wrong. Also, what do you do when the church in a city has tens of thousands of members? In Taipei they have 23 meeting halls, each with elders in that hall. So the issue isn’t with different meeting halls, each with their own elders, the issue is with all of the elders reporting to Witness Lee. Only the “apostle” has the authority to appoint elders (or remove them) and they are all under his authority. So then, Watchman Nee teaches that “authority is local, each local church answers to the Lord” yet in practice every local church answers to Witness Lee and they are not “legitimate” unless he sanctions them. There are several requirements put on a local church. Each one must have a standing order with the Living Stream Ministry, receiving monthly shipments of books that they don’t want. They must participate in yearly trainings, sending people and paying fees for these. And they must contribute on a monthly basis to the Legal Defense Fund, paying for the legal team of lawyers that the Living Stream Ministry controls. This legal team is used for lawsuits against others. The teaching is used to judge others and to bring the believers into bondage. Then worst of all, they are told that if they leave the “proper ground” of Witness Lee’s churches then they cannot go on with the Lord.

Matt 18:6 but whoso shall cause one of these little ones that believe on me to stumble, it is profitable for him that [a]a great millstone should be hanged about his neck, and that he should be sunk in the depth of the sea.

Minister of the Age

The second doctrine is the “Minister of the Age” doctrine. According to this the Lord is working out His purpose in this age, building His church. In each “mini time period” say the time of Martin Luther or the time of Watchman Nee the Lord has a particular vision, He gives that vision to one servant to minister and that servant is the “Minister of the Age”. Martin Luther was a “Minister of the Age” and Watchman Nee was a “Minister of the Age”. The vision that Martin Luther had was “justification by faith”, the vision that Watchman Nee had was “the ground of the church”. This doctrine is supported with an extensive review of the Old Testament showing that at any given moment in time God was moving through one key man (Abraham, Moses, Joshua, David, Elijah, Elisha, etc.). Then in the New Testament you can see that Peter took the lead at one time, then James was clearly the leading elder at one time, then Paul when he rebuked Peter was taking the lead, etc. But then when you study church history this teaching collapses. There was never, apart from James, a “Minister of the Age” that all other ministers appear to submit to. They use a verse from Moses saying that there will be a prophet like him, but that verse is very clearly referring to Jesus. The Old Testament type of the “Minister of the Age” is a type of Jesus and the “vision of the age” is salvation by grace. This doctrine teaches that this type of Jesus is actually a type of Watchman Nee, that is equivalent to preaching another Jesus that Paul warns us of.

2 Cor 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we did not preach,

The book of James condemns the history where he was the leading elder saying that we should not have the faith of our Lord Jesus with respect of persons. He condemns boasting and pride.

Key Issues

Lawsuits

Many Christians became alarmed by this group. Books like the “God Men” and “The Mindbenders” were published accusing the church of being a cult. Witness Lee put together a legal defense team and sued these publishers. All of the churches are required to send money to Living Stream Ministry to support this legal defense team. Ultimately the publishers of those books went broke and could no longer fight the lawsuit, hence Witness Lee won. Witness Lee’s use of lawsuits to sue Christians is a major issue many have with him.

1Cor 6:6 but brother goeth to law with brother, and that before unbelievers? 7 Nay, already it is altogether a defect in you, that ye have lawsuits one with another. Why not rather take wrong? why not rather be defrauded? 8 Nay, but ye yourselves do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren

Daystar

Witness Lee was involved in numerous investment schemes. The one I refer to is called “Daystar” it was a motor home company that was located in Taiwan. He sold stock in this company to all of the saints in the United States. His sons, Philip and Timothy ran the company. The company went bankrupt yet Philip and Timothy and Witness Lee made money. Witness Lee convinced all of the saints to not seek remuneration. Selling the stock as he did violated SEC regulations. There were a number of issues with this company that had the saints sought to get their money back would have put Witness Lee and his sons in jail.

Starting around 1972, Witness Lee expressed a concern for the financial suffering of the migrating saints and their need to be able to purchase proper meeting places. I was in a meeting of visiting elders and co-workers in which he introduced the Daystar business. He shared that his son Timothy had approached him about a business and that the business seemed to Witness Lee to be ideal for us (the local churches). The brothers and sisters could invest money, earn a nice profit of around 35%, and generate significant profit for the support of the new churches. He then spoke of manufacturing only the finest product. We could produce the product in Taiwan, which would help the believers there with employment and sell the product in the USA. He spoke at length concerning how the members of the churches should only invest their surplus and that he felt very positive that this was of the Lord. The business consisted of manufacturing and selling an expensive motor home. This was certainly a very different meeting than anything I had ever attended. I and others left with our heads spinning. I was bothered and asked James Barber what was going on. He replied that Witness Lee was God’s anointed and I should be very careful about criticizing. He declared that even if Witness Lee was wrong, God would bless the endeavor. (Taken from “History by Don Rutledge” posted on the Local Church Discussions website).


Philip Lee

After Daystar Witness Lee formed “Living Stream Ministry” and put Philip Lee, an unsaved person, in charge. Philip Lee was involved in many evil deeds including molesting sisters and having drunken parties in the office. The elders brought these to the attention of Witness Lee. All those that did were slandered, libeled and excommunicated. Max Rappaport, his wife, John Ingalls, Bill Mallon, John So, etc. There is a long list of people who became aware of the sins of Philip Lee and as a result were maligned and driven out of the Local church and everyone was told to avoid them because they were “poisoned”. These were the key spiritual leaders in the church. In addition, Philip Lee was the one who forced all the churches to get “standing orders”. This means that each month the church pays for books they don’t want. The boxes of books would build up in the closet until they have no more room. At that point they have a “yard sale” to get rid of them.

Key People

Ray Graver, Benson Phillips, Kerry Robichaux and Ed Marks were all in the church in Houston at the same time I was from 1978 to 1981. All five of us then went to form the church in Irving to build a large conference center for the Living Stream Ministry and were there until 1983. So for six years I was in a church of 200 (Houston) and 100 (Irving) with these four. Today Ray Graver and Benson Phillips run Living Stream Ministry. Ed Marks is a key elder, taking over when the elders in Anaheim resigned over Philip Lee. He is notorious for signing an apology letter to Phillip Lee apologizing for the elders that had disciplined him over his adulterous behavior with sisters (married and single) at the Living Stream office. Kerry Robichaux is the “scribe”. He graduated with a degree in linguistics. He has studied Greek and has a Phd. I went to Rice university at the same time he was there. Ray Graver and Benson Phillips are notorious for refusing to listen to John Ingalls when he came to them about Philip Lee. They argued that Philip was a “local matter”. They basically stuck the knife in the back of the elders in Anaheim and then the four of them (Ray, Benson, Ed and Kerry) replaced them.

Upon coming together we attempted amid protests to mention the matter of the misconduct in the LSM office. They steadfastly refused to hear about it, but we proceeded to speak. Ray [Ray Graver] Graver then quickly rose and exited the room. Benson [Benson Phillips] (in whose home we were meeting) also rose to register his displeasure. We felt that they had knowledge relevant to the matter and wanted to confer with them about it. Benson admitted that the same sister from the LSM office (mentioned previously) had come to him in Taipei to disclose a related event, but he strongly protested our bringing this matter before them. They argued that this affair was exclusively under the jurisdiction of the church in Anaheim, and they had no business being involved. We felt, as we mentioned earlier, that it was more than local, and that since that they were leaders in the LSM operation, they could be consulted. (Taken from Speaking the Truth in Love, by John Ingalls)

For those interested in reading the full 61 page document here is the PDF

[Drake]

ZNP,

I'd like to continue our conversation here concerning James. You have provided an extensive base of thought to springboard off of. I will try to keep my observations related strictly to James.

Before, I get into more detail here is one wording correction I suggest in your opening paragraph. I don't think you meant it the way it reads but could be misunderstood by some:

" But, you know you can trust James, after all, he is the brother of Jesus and the son of the virgin Mary."... would be better stated "and the son of Joseph and Mary (the Lord's mother)"

Mary was not a virgin in perpetuity and assumed the duties and obligations of a family after Jesus' birth including having children with her husband Joseph. If there is any special trust that can be attributed to James it would only be that he and the Lord Jesus had the same physical mother and maybe she shared some things with him after he believed like the virgin birth. His siblings did not even believe in Him growing up... not until after His resurrection. And though He met with James after His resurrection, we have no information about what was said. We may make some assumptions about that but it would be speculative.

I think you'll agree with the above but I just to make sure we start off with the same assumptions so we don't have to backtrack later.

Agree? If not, let's discuss.

thx
Drake

[ZNPaaneah]

Thanks. Just trying to emphasize that this woman was part of the heritage of faith in her own right.

[Drake]

Yep. I figured.

More later.

thx
Drake

[ZNPaaneah]

Any more?

[Drake]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Any more?

Hi ZNP,

I read it but as a whole it’s conclusions have little to do with James or his epistle and that which does would require too much effort on my part.

I believe people should just read your article and draw theiir own conclusions based on its own merits.

However, if you have a specific question about James I’ll do my best to answer.

Thx
Drake

[ZNPaaneah]

The question recently is why would it be God's will for us to have experienced the ministry of Witness Lee? Many of us including myself believe that the "Ground of Oneness" doctrine is an error, that the MOTA doctrine is an error, that the deification doctrine is an error, and that the one publication edict is an error.

The excommunications, public ridicule, and lasciviousness of the leaders of LSM are contrary to the word, yet the word also says "all things work together for good to those that love God and are called according to purpose". It also says "give thanks for all things". It is hard to "give thanks" unless we understand how this works out for good, and that part of God's will may be a mystery to us. Hence, "the mystery of God's will".

There are a couple of verses concerning God's will that are plain and clear:
1. God desires all men to be saved and come to the full knowledge of the truth
2. It is God's will that we give thanks in all things
3. It is God's will that we are sanctified.
4. It is God's will that we silence ignorant talk by doing good.

But, in my opinion, no verse reveals the mystery of God's will more than Ephesians 1:3

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The question recently is why would it be God's will for us to have experienced the ministry of Witness Lee? Many of us including myself believe that the "Ground of Oneness" doctrine is an error, that the MOTA doctrine is an error, that the deification doctrine is an error, and that the one publication edict is an error.

The excommunications, public ridicule, and lasciviousness of the leaders of LSM are contrary to the word, yet the word also says "all things work together for good to those that love God and are called according to purpose". It also says "give thanks for all things". It is hard to "give thanks" unless we understand how this works out for good, and that part of God's will may be a mystery to us. Hence, "the mystery of God's will".

There are a couple of verses concerning God's will that are plain and clear:
1. God desires all men to be saved and come to the full knowledge of the truth
2. It is God's will that we give thanks in all things
3. It is God's will that we are sanctified.
4. It is God's will that we silence ignorant talk by doing good.

But, in my opinion, no verse reveals the mystery of God's will more than Ephesians 1:3

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies.

I think each person needs to go to the Holy Spirit if they are troubled as to why they were in the LC/LSM. Did God lead them in? Were they coerced and fell into a trap?

Another means of clarity (hopefully) would be dividing on paper the pros/cons of what they experienced while in its' confines.

I was raised as a Catholic and while I am so thankful I am not in its' clutches, I am thankful I went to Catholic school for 12 yrs. Why? Firstly, there were some truths that kept me steadfast in my faith. That I was taught there are 3 Persons in One God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. That Jesus was born of a virgin, died for our sins, resurrected is TRUTH and kept me from getting confused.

2ndly, God has used me to reach out to Catholics as the Holy Spirit leads. Because of my upbringing, I can relate and many Catholics have trusted me.

Interestingly enough, as I was beginning to seek the LORD as a young adult, I recall telling God I wanted to be in the 'one true church'. The RCC taught me it was the one true churc but I knew in my heart it was not. Soon after, He led me to the LC in 1975. I actually believed for a time the LC was 'the one true church'. Operating word: WAS

As most of you know, my experience in the LC as short lived as it was 4- 5 yrs was for the most part a positive one. I did not even hear of Witness Lee until my 4th month in the LC ! Up until then, I was reading, studying, pray reading, fellowshipping which was centered around JESUS.

Just as THE LORD led me in, He led me out.

Good topic for discussion!

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I think each person needs to go to the Holy Spirit if they are troubled as to why they were in the LC/LSM. Did God lead them in? Were they coerced and fell into a trap?

Could it be both?

God's will: 14 in order that we may be no longer babes, tossed and carried about by every wind of teaching [which is] in the sleight of men, in unprincipled cunning with a view to systematized error;

How do you mature to the point that you are no longer babes? How do you get passed being someone naive enough to fall for the sleight of men?

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

God's will: in order that we may be no longer babes, tossed and carried about by every wind of teaching [which is] in the sleight of men, in unprincipled cunning with a view to systematized error;

How do you mature to the point that you are no longer babes? How do you get past being someone naive enough to fall for the sleight of men?

I get the point - we have to get THROUGH getting tossed about. We start out babes, and any Christian teacher with a persuasive message grabs us. It actually was by design that CMW didn't hear of Witness Lee for the first 4-5 months. They were prepping her, by "enjoyment". Eventually you see the real "Lord" of the LC. Not Jesus.

We are to remain NO LONGER as babes. So we go through the "getting tossed and carried about" part. Not fun, rather unpleasant actually, but there it is. The LSM and LC is, in my view, a good example of systematized error. There are, unfortunately, many others. So we learn from our experiences, and go on. And we publish our experiences here, in conversation.

Every August and September, from what I understand, several tens (hundreds?) of thousands of LSM-originated flyers get mailed out to incoming Freshmen at Colleges and Universities across the USA. Most of these students are young, with little experience, and little external guidance. God have mercy.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I was raised as a Catholic and while I am so thankful I am not in its' clutches, I am thankful I went to Catholic school for 12 yrs. Why? Firstly, there were some truths that kept me steadfast in my faith. That I was taught there are 3 Persons in One God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. That Jesus was born of a virgin, died for our sins, resurrected is TRUTH and kept me from getting confused.

Me too. My parochial education was a great preservation to me, like the LAW was a custodian to the Jews. We constantly were challenged with the "faith vs. science" debate, which served to prepare us for the university.

As I entered University, I left all the Catholic tradition, yet still kept my faith in Jesus and the Bible. Later these two bedrocks helped me to be dynamically saved. Then I desired to tell all my Catholic family and friends about Jesus, but the LC filled me with hatred towards Catholicism from the Revelations training.

Today I view idols as nothing, and I can fellowship freely with my Catholic neighbors. That was not always the case for this iconoclast! There are spme real believers and lovers of Jesus in the RCC. It is God's will that our life experiences be used to help and shepherd God's other children.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Me too. My parochial education was a great preservation to me, like the LAW was a custodian to the Jews. We constantly were challenged with the "faith vs. science" debate, which served to prepare us for the university.

As I entered University, I left all the Catholic tradition, yet still kept my faith in Jesus and the Bible. Later these two bedrocks helped me to be dynamically saved. Then I desired to tell all my Catholic family and friends about Jesus, but the LC filled me with hatred towards Catholicism from the Revelations training.

Today I view idols as nothing, and I can fellowship freely with my Catholic neighbors. That was not always the case for this iconoclast! There are spme real believers and lovers of Jesus in the RCC. It is God's will that our life experiences be used to help and shepherd God's other children.

That is how I understand these verses:

7 But to each one of us has been given grace according to the measure of the gift of the Christ.
8 Wherefore he says, Having ascended up on high, he has led captivity captive, and has given gifts to men.
9 But that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same who has also ascended up above all the heavens, that he might fill all things;

If the Lord has led you out from "the lower parts of the earth" your experience of His grace will help you in leading others out. Hence, your gift is activated and you can be given as a gift to the Body to help perfect other saints.

11 and has given some apostles, and some prophets, and some evangelists, and some shepherds and teachers,
12 for the perfecting of the saints; with a view to [the] work of [the] ministry, with a view to the edifying of the body of Christ;

[JJ]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The question recently is why would it be God's will for us to have experienced the ministry of Witness Lee? Many of us including myself believe that the "Ground of Oneness" doctrine is an error, that the MOTA doctrine is an error, that the deification doctrine is an error, and that the one publication edict is an error.

The excommunications, public ridicule, and lasciviousness of the leaders of LSM are contrary to the word, yet the word also says "all things work together for good to those that love God and are called according to purpose". It also says "give thanks for all things". It is hard to "give thanks" unless we understand how this works out for good, and that part of God's will may be a mystery to us. Hence, "the mystery of God's will".

There are a couple of verses concerning God's will that are plain and clear:
1. God desires all men to be saved and come to the full knowledge of the truth
2. It is God's will that we give thanks in all things
3. It is God's will that we are sanctified.
4. It is God's will that we silence ignorant talk by doing good.

But, in my opinion, no verse reveals the mystery of God's will more than Ephesians 1:3

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies.

Great thread start ZNP.

Item 1 helps explain my LC experience for sure.

I was saved and came to know many partial truths in the LC (mostly because I spent a lot of time reading the Bible, and learned an appreciation for the Holy Spirit’s guidance) but needed to leave to continue on the path to full knowledge of the truth.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by JJ

Great thread start ZNP.

Item 1 helps explain my LC experience for sure.

I was saved and came to know many partial truths in the LC (mostly because I spent a lot of time reading the Bible, and learned an appreciation for the Holy Spirit’s guidance) but needed to leave to continue on the path to full knowledge of the truth.

In Genesis we are told “in you all the nations of the Earth will be blessed”. We were blessed in Abraham and Abraham received 7 blessings. Galatians 3:9 says those of faith were blessed with Abraham. Ephesians reveals these 7 blessings. Ephesians reveals the first 6 books of the Bible are organized based on God accomplishing these 7 blessings. From the time God made this promise to Abraham until Solomon dedicated the temple, that entire portion of the Bible is the working out and accomplishment of these 7 blessings. Therefore, these seven blessings reveal “God’s will”, they are a more complete picture of what it is to be saved and understanding this is to come to “the full knowledge of the truth”. It is also clear that these blessings result in our being sanctified which is God’s will. I feel that this phrase “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ who has blessed us” reveals the mystery of God’s will. But to understand that you have to know these seven blessings and how they are revealed in the first six books of the Bible and how this is brought out in Ephesians.

[ZNPaaneah]

A friend of mine has stage 4 cancer, they can't operate, so I have prayed for him to be healed. So the question is this: "is it God's will to heal him"? That question, to me, is the "mystery of God's will".

Ephesians says we have been blessed with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies. Surely this includes the promises that God will hear our prayer. Just like we see with Joseph at the end of the book of Genesis.

So let's look at this a little closer. Our covenant is a contract, a contract is not simply "I will bless you". It has been put into writing, the contract involves blessings to both parties, it is not simply one sided, and then it must be signed legally.

So in Ephesians it says "In Him we obtain an inheritance" or it could also be translated "In Him we are made a heritage". This is the two sided nature of the covenant. Ruth is a very good example. She was a moabitess, but her faith was that "your people will be my people and your God will be my God". Therefore, in her heart she wasn't a moabitess, but rather the widow of an Israelite. God answers her prayer, she does obtain an inheritance, but in so doing she also is made a heritage. That is the mystery of God's will.

Sardonyx is an excellent illustration of this. Sardonyx is the 4th stone in the New Jerusalem and stands next to Emerald which is considered by many to be the most precious of precious stones. Sardonyx is opaque, and looks like a sandwich with a white filling between two dark brown to black layers. You might find it interesting if you picked it up on the beach, but how can this stone stand next to an emerald? The Lord can make it stand. A craftsman comes in and carves through the top layer, creating a border like a frame. Then in the white layer they carve a scene, say a king on his throne with his court around him. Then beneath this white layer, there might be some sinister characters hiding in the shadows. The result is a masterpiece. To change this funny looking stone into a priceless masterpiece is a blessing. Ruth obtains an inheritance, is made a great nation, is blessed, her name is made great, etc. Why? Because in so doing God also obtains a priceless work of art as His heritage. That is the mystery of God's will. Ruth was twice cursed being both a moabitess and a widow, but now she can stand between Joseph and King David.

Finally, the covenant has to be sealed. The seal is done so that there is no doubt who signed the covenant. For example, with Gideon God had to winnow down his army from 30,000 men to 300 men so that no one would claim that Israel had defeated the Midianites by their own hand. Once again, this is the mystery of God's will. He can heal my friend, but in a way that no one can vaunt themselves against God saying it was by their hand.

[ZNPaaneah]

14 in order that we may be no longer babes, tossed and carried about by every wind of *that* teaching [which is] in the sleight of men, in unprincipled cunning with a view to systematized error;

God's will is that we would no longer be babes who are defrauded by the sleight of men, in unprincipled cunning. When I look at many threads on this forum I think it is fair to compare PL, TL, and WL to an "unprincipled cunning with a view to a systematized error".

That is a strong accusation, but there is certainly enough evidence to bring that charge against these three, and the Lord knows if there is enough to convict.

I consider the ground of the church doctrine, and the attempt to create franchise churches that have standing orders from the ministry and pay fees every six months for various trainings, as a "systematized error" complete with the MOTA doctrine and the one publication doctrine.

So then, if I was merely hearing this in a Bible study class it would make a very small impact, but having lived through it how much more of an impact has this made? So I see this as part of the will of God, but not the "mystery of God's will". It is no mystery, simply part of the normal maturation process of a king, to no longer be so naive and simple to fall for wolves in sheep's clothing.

The mystery of God's will is that this maturation in us will result in God being praised and blessed.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

..But on the other hand you are right, no one "openly" demanded that I only read WL books. It was up to me to figure out what the "two strikes" were that they were talking about.

Did you ever find out what those 2 strikes were?

How long after being on the verge of being on the excommunication list did you leave? Or were you excommunicated ?

The only people who should be excommunicated from a Christian assembly are those who blaspheme the Holy Spirit (which are unsaved people anyway), who reject the Precious Blood of Jesus and and the Word of God. But then these people should know better than to be in the Light because LIGHT CASTS OUT DARKNESS.

I am so glad I do not go to the man made church. I do not forsake assemblying myself and fellowshipping with saints but the organized man made church is not biblical. Thank GOD!

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Did you ever find out what those 2 strikes were?

This occurred in 1978 or 1979 at the latest. After 40 years of consideration I feel confident it had to do with my attitude towards WL. I had been warned to stay away from "the Lord's recovery" because they thought they were better than everyone else. I didn't realize the Local Church was also called the Lord's recovery until I was in the Ephesians training and almost bolted in the middle of a message when I realized this. The second strike would have been this offhand remark that I had not gotten anything from a WL book I had read.

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

How long after being on the verge of being on the excommunication list did you leave? Or were you excommunicated ?

Funny. After that conference in the elders room there were further attacks. I have shared them in my testimony, but in brief they targeted me for an innuendo attack during a Friday night meeting. However, the Lord used that to train me, I went home, prayed, was touched by the verses in Galatians that "I did not give place to them for five minutes" and was the first one to pop up Sunday morning. The brother sitting next to me was shocked and initially tried to hold me down.

After that during one training they had me stay with the two Salassi brothers (elders in Houston) and an Elder during one of the Anaheim trainings. Whenever I tried to speak in fellowship one of the Salassi brothers would tell me to shut up. It was a miserable ten days and I felt like an idiot paying both in money and time for this experience. But again, the Lord used that because I learned a valuable lesson that I used later and was a great comfort to me. After that I went to Irving when they went to build the meeting hall and was full time for 18 months. After that I moved to Odessa to help raise up the church there, GW was sent out to deal with me, but after the training I had received I knew how to stand up to him and he felt the Lord's wrath. After that I was in the Full time training in Taipei and stayed in Taipei from 1987 to 1995 and was training trainees that went to Russia. After that I returned to NY. So no, I was not excommunicated and it was 20 years after that that I left.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Funny. After that conference in the elders room there were further attacks. I have shared them in my testimony, but in brief they targeted me for an innuendo attack during a Friday night meeting. However, the Lord used that to train me, I went home, prayed, was touched by the verses in Galatians that "I did not give place to them for five minutes" and was the first one to pop up Sunday morning. The brother sitting next to me was shocked and initially tried to hold me down.

After that during one training they had me stay with the two Salassi brothers (elders in Houston) and an Elder during one of the Anaheim trainings. Whenever I tried to speak in fellowship one of the Salassi brothers would tell me to shut up. It was a miserable ten days and I felt like an idiot paying both in money and time for this experience. But again, the Lord used that because I learned a valuable lesson that I used later and was a great comfort to me. After that I went to Irving when they went to build the meeting hall and was full time for 18 months. After that I moved to Odessa to help raise up the church there, GW was sent out to deal with me, but after the training I had received I knew how to stand up to him and he felt the Lord's wrath. After that I was in the Full time training in Taipei and stayed in Taipei from 1987 to 1995 and was training trainees that went to Russia. After that I returned to NY. So no, I was not excommunicated and it was 20 years after that that I left.

After all you have done for them, working selflessly for two decades, receiving only backstabbing in return, normal folks might think that they would put your name on an appreciative wall plaque or give you a lifetime gift certificate to McDonald's.

Instead, they ran out of places where they could send you.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

After all you have done for them, working selflessly for two decades, receiving only backstabbing in return, normal folks might think that they would put your name on an appreciative wall plaque or give you a lifetime gift certificate to McDonald's.

Instead, they ran out of places where they could send you.

All things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to purpose.

I don't think any of the trials I experienced are strange, rather these are the things we need to experience to be matured.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

All things work together for good to those who love God and are called according to purpose.

I don't think any of the trials I experienced are strange, rather these are the things we need to experience to be matured.

Well said brother ZNPaaneah! Well said!!

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This occurred in 1978 or 1979 at the latest. After 40 years of consideration I feel confident it had to do with my attitude towards WL. I had been warned to stay away from "the Lord's recovery" because they thought they were better than everyone else. I didn't realize the Local Church was also called the Lord's recovery until I was in the Ephesians training and almost bolted in the middle of a message when I realized this. The second strike would have been this offhand remark that I had not gotten anything from a WL book I had read.

Funny. After that conference in the elders room there were further attacks. I have shared them in my testimony, but in brief they targeted me for an innuendo attack during a Friday night meeting. However, the Lord used that to train me, I went home, prayed, was touched by the verses in Galatians that "I did not give place to them for five minutes" and was the first one to pop up Sunday morning. The brother sitting next to me was shocked and initially tried to hold me down.

After that during one training they had me stay with the two Salassi brothers (elders in Houston) and an Elder during one of the Anaheim trainings. Whenever I tried to speak in fellowship one of the Salassi brothers would tell me to shut up. It was a miserable ten days and I felt like an idiot paying both in money and time for this experience. But again, the Lord used that because I learned a valuable lesson that I used later and was a great comfort to me. After that I went to Irving when they went to build the meeting hall and was full time for 18 months. After that I moved to Odessa to help raise up the church there, GW was sent out to deal with me, but after the training I had received I knew how to stand up to him and he felt the Lord's wrath. After that I was in the Full time training in Taipei and stayed in Taipei from 1987 to 1995 and was training trainees that went to Russia. After that I returned to NY. So no, I was not excommunicated and it was 20 years after that that I left.

Thank you for sharing and repeating your experience/testimony. It may have been worth repeating for the sake of newbies on this forum.

As for me, I confess I have not read every thread and post. Even if I had, my memory while still pretty sharp for being 64 yrs young, does not retain everything I read.

[ZNPaaneah]

The prayer of a righteous person is powerful and effective. James 5:16

Prayer reveals whether or not you are a righteous person. This is why unforgiveness will hinder our prayers. There is nothing righteous about having all your sins forgiven but then trying to extract the last farthing from someone else.

It is like those old westerns where they would test the gold coin by biting it. We might be afraid or intimidated by this. But Jesus Christ is our righteousness. Why are you fearful of having the righteousness of Jesus tested?

[ZNPaaneah]

“Fellow Israelites, why does this surprise you? Why do you stare at us as if by our own power or godliness we had made this man walk? 13 The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go. 14 You disowned the Holy and Righteous One and asked that a murderer be released to you. 15 You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this. 16 By faith in the name of Jesus, this man whom you see and know was made strong. It is Jesus’ name and the faith that comes through him that has completely healed him, as you can all see.

Compare this verse with James 5:16

Jesus name is "the righteous person" the faith that comes through him is the faith that operated in Peter to be one with the Lord.

17 “Now, fellow Israelites, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. 18 But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Messiah would suffer. 19 Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, 20 and that he may send the Messiah, who has been appointed for you—even Jesus. 21 Heaven must receive him until the time comes for God to restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.

Peter has forgiven them because "they acted in ignorance". They didn't repent, instead he is now calling them to repent so that their sins may be wiped out. Peter forgave them prior to them repenting and their sins being wiped out.