Europe, Russia and Surrounding area -

UntoHim · 06-28-2008, 07:23 PM

From: ee_isra@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ee_isra@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 1:39 PM
Subject: Report from Romania June 26, 2008

Dear saints,

"We just wanted to give you a short update related to what is going on
in the Lord's Work in Romania at the moment. As some of you probably
know already, there have been some radical changes within the last
couple of months related to the Work. As a result of the recent
situation in the LME realm, the number of the full-time coworkers
serving in Timisoara, had dwindled to less than half their number in
the recent past. Moreover, recently, a dear couple in the Work (T.
and G. S.) from the Northwest of the US, have moved back to the
States, after laboring faithfully and selflessly with us for as long
as 7 and a half years. We treasure very much their work in the Lord
in Romania for all those years, and we wish that the Lord would bless
them in their new beginning back in the US, and also make them a
blessing in their sending locality.

The fellowship in the Work was that the rest of the coworkers, all
Romanians (one couple, D. and S, and two single sisters, A. and C.),
would move from Timisoara to Bucharest, mainly to serve in the campus
area, following the recent trend of the Lord's Move in Europe. The
couple has already moved in a one room flat which is literally at the
out gate of a campus with about 7000 students, situated not too far
from the meeting place of the Church in Bucharest. We are still
looking for a place for the other two sisters. Right now they take
accommodation with the saints. Fellowship is in progress for the
couple that used to work only in the LSM office (A and C). C will
join the Work with half of their time.

Now, in the newly created situation, we very much look to the Lord
for the next steps. The feeling in the Body is that we would continue
to carry out most the activities that the Work was involved in before
the those major changes took place: visiting the saints in the
country, two Brothers' Times a year, the Int'l Conference annually,
seminars in Bucharest with the Rhema contacts, the semiannual Video-
trainings, plus feeding the saints with the recent ministry in the
form of the HWMR and with the classic ministry in the form of the
Life-Study Messages. Just recently, LSM office granted its Office in
Bucharest the permission for the Life-Study of Genesis to be
published in Romanian, in successive 5 message booklets, on a print-
on-demand basis, for the use of the saints and their contacts.

Now we would like to list some of the prayer requests for Romania at
this time:

1. That the Lord would grant His Work a new and fresh start in
Bucharest, with an emphasis on the campus area, so that many students
would be gained and added to the church life.

2. That the best two-room flat (in terms of price, location and
landlord's human quality) would be secured for the two single sisters
in the Work, so they could live as close to the aforementioned campus
as possible.

3. That a convenient facility (in terms of room, board and hall)
would be secured for the 5-7 September Int'l Conference in Bucharest,
as we were not able to find anything available that would match our
budget. A renovated student campus would fit our need just fine, but
so far none we inquired into was available; and time is running out...

4. That the Lord would cover us in the first trip we want to take in
the country with the LME van, spanning 3-8 July. We would visit three
localities with saints (one with a local church), and also 4
localities in which saints have contacts. May the local saints,
especially the more isolated ones, receive a fresh infusion with life
and encouragement, and also may the Lord raise up new lampstands for
His testimony in our country.

5. That the Lord would cover the production of the Life-Study of
Genesis in Romanian, volume by volume, in a steady flow, so that the
saints in the country would get to be regularly fed with the riches
of this classic of Brother Lee.

In the Lord's unique flow, standing one with you saints for the
Lord's present recovery,

The coworkers in Bucharest"

Testing123 · 06-28-2008, 07:52 PM

Use of the phrase "the Lord's Work" seems somewhat disturbing. What, pray tell, is the capital-W "Work"?

UntoHim · 06-29-2008, 06:44 AM

Good question Testing123! In the recent past "The Work" has generally referred to "the spread of the interpreted word", which of course simply refers to the distribution of the "One Publication". These people have very little burden to simply get the word of God out to people, rather they want to make sure they have the footnotes and other printed material so they get "the higher gospel".

Another disturbing thing is the use of initials instead of full names, even for a "a dear couple in The WorK" who had been "laboring faithfully and selflessly with us for as long as 7 and a half years". Why is it that only the name of Witness Lee can be mentioned? Over seven years of labor and you can't even mention their name? Kind of bizarre actually.

aron · 08-10-2008, 01:18 PM

Here are 3 quotes:

"The fellowship in the Work was that..."

"The feeling in the Body is that..."

"Just recently, LSM office granted its Office in
Bucharest the permission..."

We have "fellowship in the Work", "feeling in the Body", and "LSM Office granting permission". Are these terms synonymous? It is a little too vague for my liking.

Just what is the feeling in the Body, anyhow? Who can presume to say what the Body of Christ is feeling? The LSM office? This is too ill-defined, and ripe for subjectivity masquerading as objective reality.

finallyprettyokay · 08-10-2008, 03:00 PM

two Brothers' Times a year

Brothers' Times?

the semiannual Video-trainings, plus feeding the saints with the recent ministry in the form of the HWMR and with the classic ministry in the form of the Life-Study Messages.

The Video-trainings, again or still. I remember when the trainings were $50 to attend, and if you didn't go to Anaheim, you could watch the videos in your local LSM puppet state center. For $50.

the recent ministry or the classic ministry

Now there is Classic Lee.

Are we ever to going to get a smilie for gagging?

fpo

Helper · 08-11-2008, 04:23 AM

Now you have one...

Helper

finallyprettyokay · 08-11-2008, 06:56 AM

Seek and Ye Shall Find!!!!!

You take good care of us here. Thanks!

FPO

aron · 08-11-2008, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Admin

The fellowship in the Work was that the rest of the coworkers, all
Romanians (one couple, D. and S, and two single sisters, A. and C.),
would move from Timisoara to Bucharest, mainly to serve in the campus
area, following the recent trend of the Lord's Move in Europe.

Now, in the newly created situation, we very much look to the Lord
for the next steps. The feeling in the Body is that we would continue
to carry out most the activities that the Work was involved in before
the those major changes took place: visiting the saints in the

. Just recently, LSM office granted its Office in
Bucharest the permission for the Life-Study of Genesis to be
published in Romanian, in successive 5 message booklets, on a print-
on-demand basis, for the use of the saints and their contacts.

the fellowship of the work I can get. The LSM office granting permission I can get. But the "feeling in the Body is..."?!?

Suppose I write that "The feeling in the Body is that..." and then list some specific. Wouldn't that seem kind of funny to most folks? I mean, without an awful lot of evidence supporting it. But in LSM land "the feeling in the Body" is whatever senior co-worker decides, I suppose. There, it's done. The Lord has spoken through reigning brother so-and-so.

If you want to speak for the Body, you have to rise up through the ranks(politics, blind loyalty, and not a little intrigue) and someday you, too, can speak for the Body's feelings.

It's all about the system, folks. Not about Jesus Christ.

Paul Cox · 08-12-2008, 05:26 PM

The "feeling in the Body" is all a part of the peculiar language that is Living Stream Churchish. If we remember how the body was exalted and lifted up to a position equal with the Triune God, then when the "feeling in the Body" is mentioned, there is little or no question in the minds of the LSM Church hearers that this word is the final word.

Here is another interesting term: "The Lord's move in _________(Europe, Asia, etc)." Every time I see this, or read it, I automatically say: "Is no other Christian work in that area the move of the Lord?"

Interestingly, I was listening to a message from Cleveland where Titus referred to the work they are doing in some part of Africa as the Lord's move in that place. At that time I wondered: "Is no other Christian work, including that of LSM, a part of the Lord's move in that region?"

I believe most of the saints use this terminology without even thinking about what they are saying. But when you stop and think about what you are actually saying sometimes, it can result in a paradigm shift.

Roger

Former LC member · 12-18-2008, 04:04 PM

Does anyone here know how the churches in the UK are doing? Are there any there who are meeting in genuine oneness apart from the LSM?

countmeworthy · 12-19-2008, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joanna Tysoe

Does anyone here know how the churches in the UK are doing? Are there any there who are meeting in genuine oneness apart from the LSM?

Joanna,

I know someone who is in the LSM/LC and the response is always something like 'The is really moving in the UK and Europe. The saints are really reaching out..etc..'

You will never hear anyone from the LSM/LC say the LSM/LC is struggling in the UK or elsewhere.

Suannehill · 12-20-2008, 05:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joanna Tysoe

Does anyone here know how the churches in the UK are doing? Are there any there who are meeting in genuine oneness apart from the LSM?

That is assuming that the LC is meeting in genuine oneness.

There are large and small pockets of believers around the world meeting in sweet fellowship and not excluding those not like them.
The church in persecution is very pure.
There are Bible smugglers going to pockets of saints in many places.

A oneness that excludes most of the Body of Christ isn't God's oneness is it?
The LC can not be honest because it's "negative".
You will not find out by asking them.
There's some history on the other board, I don't believe it is posted here.
Anyone else know?
Sue

TLFisher · 12-20-2008, 10:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Joanna Tysoe

Does anyone here know how the churches in the UK are doing? Are there any there who are meeting in genuine oneness apart from the LSM?

Whatever became of the Church in Blackpool?

Terry

UntoHim · 02-14-2009, 11:30 AM

Letter from The Church In Madrid @ Spain
2009-02-08

8 de febrero del 2009

Queridos santos de las iglesias en Espana:
Translation: Dear Saints of the Churches in Spain:

Como hermanos cargados con la obra y con las iglesias en Espana, tenemos la responsabilidad de alertarles con respecto a una obra divisiva y enganosa que se ha estado llevando a cabo en Espana por los pasados anos. En el 2005, el hermano Fernando Aguera llego a Madrid. A partir de ese tiempo El y otros hermanos que representan la obra del hermano Dong han estado fomentando de manera enErgica las ensenanzas diferentes de Dong Yu Lan en competencia con el ministerio general y la obra en el recobro del Senor. Esta clase de obra se ha llevado a cabo a pesar de peticiones especificas por parte de los hermanos en Madrid a Fernando de que se detuviera y pese a su garantia de que asi lo haria.
Translation: As brothers charged with the work and the churches in Spain, we have a responsibility to alert you to a misleading and divisive work that has been carried out in Spain for the past years. In 2005, a brother Fernando Aguer came to Madrid. From that time he and other brothers who represent the work of Brother Dong have been vigorously promoting the various teachings of Dong Yu Lan in competition with the ministry and the work in the Lord’s recovery. This kind of work has been carried out despite specific requests from the brothers in Madrid for Fernando to stop and despite his guarantee that he would do so.

Los colaboradores del hermano Dong tambiEn han establecido reuniones aparte de la comunion de las iglesias en Espana. Esta obra se ha realizado de una manera oculta y secreta que no corresponde a los hijos de luz (Ef. 5:8) y mucho menos a los siervos del Senor. Los ministros genuinos del ministerio neotestamentario no llevan a cabo el ministerio con astucia sino por la manifestacion de la verdad (2 Co. 4:2; cfr. Ef. 4:14 y las notas de pie de pagina). Les aconsejamos que no sean enganados por las palabras persuasivas de los obreros de Dong Yu Lan (Col. 2:4).
Translation: Brother Dong’s coworkers have also established meetings separate from the fellowship [communion] of the churches in Spain. This work has been performed in a hidden and secret way that does not correspond to the children of light (Ephesians 5:8), much less the servants of the Lord. Genuine ministers of the New Testament ministry do not have a ministry with cunning but by the manifestation of the truth (2 Cor 4:2, cf. Eph. 4:14 and footnotes). We advise you not to be deceived by the persuasive words of the coworkers of Dong Yu Lan (Col. 2:4).

A finales del 2006 recibimos informes desde Barcelona, Cordova, Huelva, Madrid, Malaga, Valencia y Valladolid de que Fernando estaba viajando por toda Espana con dos colaboradores del hermano Dong para fomentar el ministerio y las publicaciones de Dong Yu Lan. En al menos un caso, los obreros de Dong Yu Lan abiertamente se opusieron a la comunion de los colaboradores en cuanto a ser restringidos a una sola obra de publicacion y hablaron en tono de critica acerca de Living Stream Ministry (LSM) y las iglesias en Europa. En cuanto a Fernando, El continuamente criticaba la reunion de oracion y la reunion del ministerio de la iglesia en Madrid. A los hermanos que compartian los mensajes en los videos del ministerio que la iglesia veia, los llamaba 'los rebelados'. Supimos que Fernando y otros colaboradores de Dong Yu Lan estaban intentando por todos los medios de establecer un centro de entrenamiento, de adquirir una furgoneta para distribuir las publicaciones de Dong Yu Lan y de fijar un itinerario de conferencias. Todo esto se hizo sin ninguna comunion con las iglesias y los obreros que han estado guardando con firmeza la unanimidad y laborando en la misma para llevar a cabo el recobro del Senor en Espana.
Translation: In late 2006 we received reports from Barcelona, Cordova, Huelva, Madrid, Malaga, Valencia and Valladolid that Fernando was traveling across Spain with two partners to promote brother Dong’s ministry and publications of Dong Yu Lan. In at least one case, coworkers of Dong Yu Lan openly opposed the fellowship of the coworkers to be restricted to one publication work and spoke in the tone of criticism about Living Stream Ministry (LSM) and the churches in Europe. As for Fernando, he continuously criticized the prayer meeting and the meetings of the ministry of the church in Madrid. The brothers who shared the messages in the videos of the ministry that the church watched, they called ‘the rebels'. We learned that Fernando and other coworkers of Dong Yu Lan were trying by all means to establish a training center, to acquire a van to distribute publications of Dong Yu Lan and setting up a schedule of conferences. All this was done without any fellowship with the churches and the workers who have been keeping a strong one accord and working in the same lead to carry out the recovery of the Lord in Spain.

Cuando los hermanos de Madrid cuestionaron a Fernando el 14 de febrero del 2007 sobre su obra independiente, El afirmo que Salomon Ma-un colaborador del hermano Dong que ha estado muy involucrado en su obra en Europa-habia hablado con Joe Davis respecto a lo que los obreros del hermano Dong estaban realizando en Europa y que Joe Davis lo habia aprobado. Esto no fue asi. De hecho, Joe Davis habia escrito una carta el ano anterior a Salomon y a Joao Antonelli, otro de los obreros del hermano Dong en Europa, en la cual le expresaba su sorpresa y gran preocupacion al saber de las actividades independientes de los obreros del hermano Dong alli. Ademas, en la carta, el hermano Joe Davis expresa su preocupacion por la difusion de las publicaciones del hermano Dong, la cual se estaba realizando sin ninguna comunion con los hermanos que han estado laborando en Europa siguiendo el modelo y direccion del hermano Lee. Cuando los hermanos en Madrid le mencionaron esta carta y su contenido a Fernando, El admitio tener conocimiento de la misma. Entonces, cambio su planteamiento al irrumpir en una letania de criticas virulentas en contra de los colaboradores europeos, LSM, las iglesias en Espana, el hermano Lee y los colaboradores en general.
Translation: When the brothers from Madrid questioned Fernando on February 14, 2007 about his independent work, he said that a colleague of brother Dong, Salomon Ma who has been deeply involved in his work in Europe, had spoken with Joe Davis about what brother Dong's coworkers were doing in Europe and that Joe Davis approved it. It was not [approved]. In fact, Joe Davis had written a letter the previous year to Salomon and Joao Antonelli, another of brother Dong’s coworkers in Europe, in which he expressed his surprise and great concern to learn of the independent activities of brother Dong’s coworkers. In addition, in his letter, brother Joe Davis expressed his concern at the widespread [distribution] of brother Dong's publications, which was being conducted without any fellowship with our brothers who have been working in Europe and following the model of brother Lee. When the brothers in Madrid mentioned this letter and its contents to Fernando, he admitted having knowledge of it. Then, he changed his approach, breaking into a litany of virulent criticisms against the European coworkers, LSM, the churches in Spain, Brother Lee and his coworkers in general.

DespuEs de este incidente, Fernando se mudo a Barcelona en donde continuo obrando de manera divisiva. El comenzo una supuesta reunion de la 'mesa' alli aparte de la de los santos quienes para febrero del 2007 se habian estado reuniendo ya por diez anos. El l8 de junio del 2007, tres colaboradores- Sherman Robertson, Victor Molina y Paul Hon- visitaron a Fernando y le advirtieron acerca de tener una reunion de la mesa ilegitima sin tener en cuenta a los santos. Una vez mas Fernando afirmo falsamente que Joe Davis sabia y aprobaba su obra, pese a que esta afirmacion habia sido contradicha en Madrid. La 'mesa' de la obra del hermano Dong continua por separado de la iglesia en Barcelona. El hijo del hermano Dong, Andre, otro de sus mas antiguos obreros, participo en esa reunion divisiva en Barcelona y dio una conferencia alli en abril del 2008.
Translation: After this incident, Fernando moved to Barcelona where he continued to work so divisively. They began a so-called 'table meeting' there apart from the saints who, in February 2007, had been meeting for ten years. On l8 June 2007, three coworkers--Sherman Robertson, Paul Victor Molina and Paul Hon--visited Fernando and warned him about having an illegitimate meeting without regard to the saints. Fernando once again falsely stated that Joe Davis knew and approved of his work, despite the fact that this statement had been contradicted in Madrid. The 'table' of brother Dong’s work continued separately from the church in Barcelona. Brother Dong's son, Andre, one of their older workers participated in this divisive meeting in Barcelona and gave a conference there in April 2008.

Mientras estaba en Barcelona, Fernando continuo la obra del hermano Dong en Madrid sin la comunion de los hermanos alli ni el conocimiento de ellos al respecto. Se nos ha informado que ha establecido, aunque lo ha negado, una segunda reunion de la 'mesa' en competencia con la que ya existia en Madrid. Un hecho indiscutible es que ha presionado a los santos para que abandonen las iglesias en Espana y asistan a las reuniones que El establece por separado. A fin de ganar la simpatia de los santos, les ha dicho que El fue 'expulsado' de la iglesia en Madrid: una acusacion falsa.
Translation: While Fernando was in Barcelona, continuing the work of brother Dong, he was not in fellowship with the brethren in Madrid, nor acknowledged them in this regard. We have been informed that there has been established, (although it has denied) a second 'table meeting' in competition with that already existing in Madrid. One indisputable fact is that they have pushed the saints to leave churches in Spain and to attend these meetings in separation. To gain the sympathy of the saints, they said that he was ' expelled ' from the church in Madrid: a false accusation.

La obra del hermano Dong ha enviado equipos de obreros a viajar por toda Espana con el fin de ayudar a Fernando a propagar la literatura del hermano Dong y comenzar 'iglesias' con reuniones de la 'mesa'. De igual manera, esta obra se ha llevado a cabo independientemente de las iglesias y los santos en Espana, y de los colaboradores en Europa.
Translation: The work of brother Dong has sent teams of workers under Fernando to travel throughout Spain with the aim of helping to spread the literature of brother Dong and start 'churches' with ‘table meetings.’ Similarly, this work has been carried out independently of the churches and saints in Spain, and the coworkers in Europe.

Queridos santos, debemos estar claros que son divisivas tanto dicha obra privada y secreta como la comunion cerrada que Esta produce. Esto es asi aunque los obreros implicados afirmen que las iglesias que establecen estan en el terreno de la localidad. El terreno de la localidad no es una excusa para la division, sino que es el terreno de la unidad. La iglesia local es la manifestacion local del unico Cuerpo de Cristo universal. El testimonio de la iglesia local es que ella recibe a todos los creyentes y tiene comunion con todas las otras iglesias locales genuinas en la comunion unica del Cuerpo de Cristo (1 Co. 1:9). La practica del hermano Dong consiste en comenzar a partir el pan en una localidad con tan solo un punado de creyentes-a veces tan solo dos-a manera de 'plantar una bandera', con el fin de reclamar esa localidad como territorio de su obra privada. Esta practica no es conforme a la verdad. Aquellos que afirman ser una iglesia y, sin embargo, se mantienen separados de la comunion comun, estan autoenganandose al pensar que son una iglesia local genuina. De hecho, son una secta local.
Translation: Dear saints, we must be clear that such works are as divisive as the private and secret closed fellowship that is taking place. This is so even though the workers involved claim that the churches are established on the ground of locality. The ground of the church is no excuse for the division, but is the ground of unity. The local church is the local manifestation of the one Body of Christ universally. The testimony of the local church is that it receives to all believers and fellowships with all other local churches as the only genuine communion of the Body of Christ (1 Cor 1:9). The practice of brother Dong consists of starting the bread in a locality with only a handful of believers, sometimes just two--as a way 'to plant a flag" in order to claim the town/city as a territory of his private work. This practice is inconsistent with the truth. Those who claim to be a church, but are kept separate from the common fellowship, are led to think they are a genuine local church. But, in fact, it is a local cult.

Una iglesia local es una que esta abierta a todos los santos en esa localidad y esta abierta a todas las iglesias locales. Si existe una supuesta iglesia local que no tiene comunion con las otras iglesias locales, Esta no es una iglesia local, sino una repeticion de la historia del cristianismo degradado. Al rehusar tener comunion, esta supuesta iglesia local llega a ser una secta local. (Witness Lee, The Wonderful Christ in the Canon of the New Testament, pgs. 175-176)
Translation: “A local church is one that is open to all the saints in this locality and is open to all local churches. If there is an alleged local church which has no communion with other local churches, this is not a local church, but a repetition of the history of degraded Christianity. By refusing to take communion, this alleged local church becomes a local cult.” (Witness Lee, The Wonderful Christ in the Canon of the New Testament, pgs. 175-176)

El pan en la mesa del Senor es un simbolo. Este representa la comunion en el cuerpo fisico y mistico del Cuerpo de Cristo (1 Co. 10:16). Esto indica que participamos en la comunion unica que es comun a todos los hijos de Senor, por la cual el Senor se ha dado a Si mismo a todos Sus creyentes como su vida y su todo mediante Su muerte expiatoria y nos ha constituido en el unico Cuerpo organico con El mismo como la cabeza. Aquellos que partan un pan que no represente esta comunion comun a todos, practican el sectarismo sin importar como se autodenominen. Por esta causa Pablo nos encomendo a discernir el cuerpo del Senor (1 Co. 11:29).
Translation: The bread on the table of the Lord is a symbol. This is the communion in the body physical and mystical Body of Christ (1 Cor 10:16). This indicates that we only participate in the communion that is common to all children of God, by which the Lord has given Himself to all believers and all their life and through His atoning death and has become the only body, the same as the head. Those who participate in a bread that represents a fellowship that is not common to all, practice sectarianism. For this reason Paul gave us to discern the body of the Lord (1 Cor 11:29).

La primera cosa que debemos discernir es el pan en la mesa del Senor. El pan en la mesa del Senor debe ser un simbolo no solamente del cuerpo fisico del Senor, sino tambiEn del Cuerpo mistico del Senor, el cual es universalmente uno (Ef. 4:4). Aunque tomemos la mesa del Senor en diferentes ciudades alrededor del mundo, todos estamos tomando de un solo pan, porque el pan del cual participamos es un simbolo del Cuerpo mistico de Cristo, el cual es universalmente uno. Asi que, 1 Corintios 10:17 dice: 'Siendo uno solo el pan, nosotros, con ser muchos, somos un cuerpo; pues todos participamos de aquel mismo pan.' Cualquier pan en la mesa el Senor que no represente al Cuerpo universal del Senor sino al cuerpo de cierta secta, es divisivo. (Witness Lee, Una presentacion breve de lo que es el recobro del Senor, pag. 57)
Translation: The first thing we need to discern is the bread on the table of the Lord. The bread on the table of the Lord should be a symbol not only of the physical body of the Lord, but also of the Mystical Body of the Lord, which is universal (Eph. 4:4). Although we take the Lord's Table in different cities around the world, we are taking only one bread, because the bread part of which is a symbol of the Mystical Body of Christ, which is a universally. So, 1 Corinthians 10:17 says: 'Being one bread, we, being many, are one body: for all partake of the same bread. " Any bread on the table of the Lord that does not represent the universal Body of the Lord, but the body of a certain sect, is divisive. (Witness Lee, a Brief Presentation of the Lord’s Recovery, pp. 57)

Es importante que los santos entiendan que los problemas que han ocasionado el hermano Dong y sus colaboradores y el modo en el que han obrado no son meramente deficiencias personales. Por el contrario, caracteriza la manera en que el hermano Dong y sus colaboradores se han comportado no solo en Espana y Europa, sino tambiEn en muchos otros lugares de la tierra. El hermano Dong ha infundido en sus colaboradores la vision de que todas las iglesias fuera de su obra personal se han degradado hasta convertirse en Laodicea; que solo las iglesias levantadas por su obra son Filadelfia y que como tales deben mantenerse separados de los que ellos consideran Laodicea.
Translation: It is important that the saints understand the problems that have been caused by brother Dong and his colleagues and how they have acted are not merely personal shortcomings. On the contrary, this characterizes how brother Dong and his colleagues have behaved, not only in Spain and Europe, but also in many other places on earth. Brother Dong has instilled in his coworkers a vision that all the churches outside of his work have degraded into Laodicea, that only the churches that were raised up by his work are Philadelphia and as such should be kept separate from those [churches] they consider Laodicea.

El hermano Dong ha creado un mito ingenioso para vindicar su obra independiente. El divide los escritos del Nuevo Testamento en tres grupos, a saber el ministerio 'tradicional' de los doce apostoles, el ministerio 'judicial' (el cual define como legal o doctrinal) del apostol Pablo y el ministerio 'organico' de Juan. Luego, alega que Dios estaba insatisfecho y que por lo tanto puso fin tanto al ministerio de los doce apostoles como al de Pablo. Segun el hermano Dong, Dios solo se complacia con el ministerio de Juan.
Translation: Brother Dong has created an ingenious myth to vindicate his independent work. He divides the writings of the New Testament into three groups, namely the 'traditional' ministry of the Twelve Apostles, the ‘judicial’ ministry (which he defines as legal or doctrinal) of the apostle Paul and the 'organic' ministry of John. Then, he claims that God was not satisfied with both the ministry of the Twelve Apostles or of Paul and thus put an end to them. According to brother Dong, God is only pleased with the ministry of John.

El hermano Dong entonces emplea este mito para exaltar su ministerio y obra por encima de todos los demas. El le da crEdito al hermano Nee por haber sacado la verdad de la esfera 'tradicional' del cristianismo, sin embargo, luego devalua el ministerio del hermano Nee y el hermano Lee al catalogarlo como 'judicial'. Por otra parte, alega que su ministerio es la continuacion unica del ministerio 'organico' de Juan. Segun este mito, solo el ministerio del hermano Dong y lo que Este produce, continuara hasta que el Senor regrese. Este es el sistema de error (Ef. 4:14) que se utiliza para justificar la total indiferencia del hermano Dong y sus colaboradores hacia otros colaboradores e iglesias.
Translation: Brother Dong then used this myth to exalt his ministry and work above all others. He gives credit to brother Nee who brought matters of the truth to 'traditional' Christianity. However, he devalues the ministry of Brother Nee and Brother Lee, which he categorizes as 'judicial '. On the other hand, he claims that his ministry continues the ‘organic’ ministry of John. According to this myth, only the ministry of brother Dong and what it produces will continue until the Lord returns. This is the system of error (Eph. 4:14) which is used to justify the utter indifference of brother Dong and his colleagues to other coworkers and churches.

Por lo tanto, encomendamos a los santos de las iglesias en Espana a no recibir a los colaboradores del hermano Dong o las publicaciones y ensenanzas diferentes que ellos fomentan (Ro. 16:17; 1 Ti. 1:3-4). La division y confusion han sido constantemente sus frutos manifiestos, no tan solo en Espana sino en otras partes de la tierra a donde han ido. Comprendemos que muchos santos han sido enganados por los colaboradores del hermano Dong inocentemente y que muchos todavia pudieran tener el deseo genuino de participar en el mover actual del Senor en Su recobro. Invitamos a estos santos a tener comunion con nosotros para que vayamos adelante juntos con miras a los intereses del Senor. Sin embargo, pedimos a los santos entre nosotros que hayan sido visitados o sido el objeto del contacto de alguna persona asociada a la obra del hermano Dong, que traigan esto a la atencion de los hermanos que toman la delantera en su localidad.
Translation: Therefore, we recommend the saints of the churches in Spain not receive coworkers of brother Dong, his various publications and teachings that promote them (Rom. 16:17, 1 Ti. 1:3-4). The division and confusion caused have been consistently manifested, not only in Spain, but also in other parts of the earth where they went. We understand that many innocent saints have been deceived by brother Dong’s coworkers and that many still may have a genuine desire to participate in the current move of the Lord in His recovery. We call these saints have fellowship with us to move forward together for the Lord’s interests. However, we ask the saints among us who have been visited or been the subject of contact by persons associated with the work of brother Dong, to bring this to the attention of the brothers taking the lead in your area.

La advertencia en esta carta es necesaria para proteger a todas las iglesias en Espana, guardandolas en las sanas palabras de la ensenanza de los apostoles (1 Ti. 6:3; Tit. 1:9; Hch. 2:42). Deseamos cooperar con el Senor para preservar lo que El ha logrado en las iglesias en Espana a fin de que las iglesias puedan ir adelante en unidad junto con todas las iglesias en Europa (Hch. 2:46; Ro. 15:6). Les pedimos que oren y estEn alertas con este fin.
Translation: The warning in this letter is necessary to protect all churches in Spain, according to the words of the sound [healthy] teaching of the Apostles (1 Ti. 6:3; Tit. 1:9; Acts. 2:42). We wish to cooperate with the Lord to preserve what He has accomplished in the churches in Spain so that the churches can go forward in unity with all the churches in Europe (Acts 2:46, Rom. 15:6). We ask you to pray and be alert to this effect.

David Martinez (Madrid) Jorge Cruz (Madrid) Cristobal Linero (Malaga)
Diego Diaz (Malaga) Nicolas Morales (Cordoba) Manuel de la Rica (Cordoba)
Joe Davis Bill Lewallen Hector Aponte
Oscar Cordero Jameson Chen Russell Cox

Paul Cox · 02-15-2009, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Genuine ministers of the New Testament ministry do not have a ministry with cunning but by the manifestation of the truth

Oh really! Maybe somebody should have informed the LSM operative of this proper method of ministry before they went into the Midwest coaching some to sue for real estate and bricks and boards.

Quote:

...without any fellowship with our brothers who have been working in Europe and following the model of brother Lee.

Where does God and the Bible figure into all this?

Quote:

After this incident, Fernando moved to Barcelona where he continued to work so divisively. They began a so-called 'table meeting' there apart from the saints who, in February 2007, had been meeting for ten years.

Uh, excuse me, but the Local Churches in this country have a 40+ year history of marching into a locality, ignoring any previous work that was going there, and "taking the ground" with visiting saints coming from hundreds of miles around. How 'bout a taste of your own medicine. Not so good, huh?

Quote:

“A local church is one that is open to all the saints in this locality and is open to all local churches. If there is an alleged local church which has no communion with other local churches, this is not a local church, but a repetition of the history of degraded Christianity. By refusing to take communion, this alleged local church becomes a local cult.” (Witness Lee, The Wonderful Christ in the Canon of the New Testament, pgs. 175-176)

Okay then, wear the "C" word title proudly, because you just described yourselves.

Quote:

...we only participate in the communion that is common to all children of God, by which the Lord has given Himself to all believers and all their life and through His atoning death and has become the only body, the same as the head.

You only participate in the communion of those who hold to the "One Publication" dogma of LSM.

Quote:

Brother Dong has instilled in his coworkers a vision that all the churches outside of his work have degraded into Laodicea, that only the churches that were raised up by his work are Philadelphia and as such should be kept separate from those [churches] they consider Laodicea.

Well, he got the Laodicea part right. Aside from that, he just seems to be a repeat of another Witness Lee.

Quote:

Brother Dong then used this myth to exalt his ministry and work above all others. He gives credit to brother Nee who brought matters of the truth to 'traditional' Christianity. However, he devalues the ministry of Brother Nee and Brother Lee, which he categorizes as 'judicial '. On the other hand, he claims that his ministry continues the ‘organic’ ministry of John. According to this myth, only the ministry of brother Dong and what it produces will continue until the Lord returns. This is the system of error (Eph. 4:14) which is used to justify the utter indifference of brother Dong and his colleagues to other coworkers and churches.

Sounds like Dong was a good student of Witness Lee. Talk about things coming full circle.

Suannehill · 02-16-2009, 02:46 AM

I have to agree.
They just described themselves!
Sue

OBW · 02-16-2009, 05:16 AM

Quote:

A local church is one that is open to all the saints in this locality and is open to all local churches. If there is an alleged local church which has no communion with other local churches, this is not a local church, but a repetition of the history of degraded Christianity. By refusing to take communion, this alleged local church becomes a local cult. (Witness Lee, The Wonderful Christ in the Canon of the New Testament, pgs. 175-176)

I really need some help understanding this paragraph in the context of any claim by the LC to NOT be the only church in a city and NOT be a cult. Based on the context, “local church” is actually “Local church” because it is used as a name for some churches to the exclusion of other churches. While those other churches are also local, being populated by people who are local, they are being chastised for not being open to all other churches that are also local? Or is it for not being open to all other “Local Churches?”

And what does it mean to be “open” to any particular church? Does it mean not exclude their members from your meetings and Lord’s table? Or does it mean subscribe to the same dogmas and intentionally send your people to visit the other churches? If the former, then there are not too many churches of any stripe that are not “open.” I’m not sure who is excluding any real Christians from their meetings or communion. If the latter, then I note that the LC doesn’t send any of its people to the group with which I meet. That group is much more local to me than the Church in Irving happens to be. Never mind that I drive past two other assemblies on my way there. The Church in Irving would rather that I drove past 2 to 3 times as many to get to their place.

And what exactly is this “communion” that “degraded Christianity” refuses to have? While the LC complains about the “ecumenical movement” and other situations in which the leadership and membership of those poor groups join in fellowship, the LC refuses even that and drives or flies long distances to meet only with those who are in lock-step on dogma. And if one of their feather begins to stray in the least, they send a flock of magpies to sue to exclude those who are straying from even using the property that now belongs to no one local because the nearest members of the LC are not local. Who is refusing communion (whether meaning fellowship of the Lord’s table)?

And who is the cult? Looks like even Lee thinks it is the one who refuses fellowship. Somehow that looks more like the LC than any in Christianity.

Oregon · 02-17-2009, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Letter from The Church In Madrid @ Spain
2009-02-08
. The testimony of the local church is that it receives to all believers and fellowships with all other local churches as the only genuine communion of the Body of Christ

How sad that such a thought exists among certain ones. To be fair...I don't think everyone in the LC believes this..... but many do. I know many believers outside of the LC and have had wonderful fellowship with some of them and have been certainly ministered to by them.

TLFisher · 02-17-2009, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

And what does it mean to be “open” to any particular church? Does it mean not exclude their members from your meetings and Lord’s table?

OBW, in my words there is openess to other churches and those that meet there. However there are cases where certain members wouldn't be received.
Being open doesn't mean the meeting format would change. Being open means you're free to meet with us on our terms. Anyone who feels their conscience is being violated has liberty to meet somewhere else.

Terry

Cal · 02-18-2009, 05:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oregon

How sad that such a thought exists among certain ones. To be fair...I don't think everyone in the LC believes this..... but many do. I know many believers outside of the LC and have had wonderful fellowship with some of them and have been certainly ministered to by them.

I'd like to hear your story sometime, Oregon, if you don't mind. What is your past and current fellowship situation? What happened in the city in which you live?

OBW · 02-18-2009, 07:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

OBW, in my words there is openess to other churches and those that meet there. However there are cases where certain members wouldn't be received.
Being open doesn't mean the meeting format would change. Being open means you're free to meet with us on our terms. Anyone who feels their conscience is being violated has liberty to meet somewhere else.

Terry

I would agree. I do not mean to imply that there is no church discipline and we are stuck with any Christian no matter what.

But the LC version of open means you come to their place and you are free to participate as long as you behave by their rules. And if you do not revere their Apostle of the Age, you will be excluded. They have no intention of coming to your place, and if they do they will refrain from participating in your Lord's table.

Oregon · 02-18-2009, 08:11 AM

My story is very simple Igzy. I came into the church life when I was 17 and have spent the majority of my life in the local churches. When I was young and in the earlier years the situation was quite different. There was no Recovery Version…although I am not opposed to it. There was no Holy Word for Morning Revival Booklets and I am not opposed to them either.
Witness Lee clearly taught back then that if you move to a new city and there are some meeting there but their practices are quite different then just drop everything and be one with them.

The commonly held belief that Witness Lee is the apostle of the age and that his ministry was the ministry of the age certainly was not taught in those days. We all had books written by other genuinely spiritual authors and we even sold them at the book table in the meeting hall.

Witness Lee publicly praised the book “The Spirit of Christ” written by Andrew Murray and many of us had and read that book regularly…..and it is a tremendous book as well as the other writings of Andrew Murray. Madame Guyon’s writings were read and cherished by many. William Law was another writer held in high regard.

When Bother Lee gave messages on “The Generality of the church” we all picked that up and were very impressed with that. That basically stated that we should only fight for the basic elements of the Christian faith and be general about everything else or we would cause division. Well……I think that is clearly a thing of the past. The local churches may still utter this but in practice it is not so.

I did function as an elder in one of the local churches for a number of years but that means nothing to me and I only mention it because you asked to hear my story.

The departure of many precious ones over the years has been a great loss and it has had a deep affect upon me. When John Ingles and Bill Mallon left that was a real landmark to me. I’ve known John personally for many years and still hold him in high regard. I didn’t know Bill Mallon as well but he did stay in our house when I was younger when he spoke at a conference in our locality. I knew Max Rappport(spelling?) fairly well and am very familiar with what went on with that whole situation. When John So left that was also very significant to me. John So left a deep impression on me in those early years.

I went through all the “door knocking” evangelization of the late 80’s and eventually became a….not so consecrated half hearted attendee. I have fellowshipped outside of the local churches for a number of years.
I’m not full of bitterness or active condemnation of the LSM churches. I just believe they have moved away from the genuine practice of “keeping the oneness of the body” to the following of a ministry. I’m not a Witness Lee hater…….but have always preferred the writings of Watchman Nee over Witness Lee and I believe there are significant differences in their writings. They “Do Not” always speak the same thing.

Anyhow….there you have my story in a nutshell. I still believe all believers in a locality should function as the church in their city and you and I have debated over this. I’m not going to carry on and endless debate on the issue.

That’s my basic story. There’s no way I’m going to believe that only those under Witness Lee’s ministry, who are in tight nit fellowship with the local churches under the oversight of the Blended Brothers, is the only genuine fellowship of the body of Christ as this letter seems to state.

The Spirit bears witness with our spirit as Paul said in Romans. I have touched life in many saints not in the “only genuine fellowship” . The statement in this letter definitely shows the “exclusiveness” that has developed over these years.

Cal · 02-18-2009, 08:56 AM

Thanks for your story, Oregon. I was wondering a couple of things. (And I'm not trying to bait you into another local ground debate.) But I would like to know if there is an LSM following local church in your area and if so, how you reconcile your beliefs about locality with the fact that there may be one, two or many groups meeting on locality in your city, including one you don't care to meet with. I'm not trying to rope you in, I'm just really wondering how you deal with it and decide where to meet. Where do you meet now?

Like I said, I'm not trying to bait you. But I would really like to know. These are practical matters and I think others would be interested in your thoughts, as many are wandering in confusion on this issue. You can reply in one of the ground threads if you'd prefer.

TLFisher · 02-18-2009, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oregon

Witness Lee clearly taught back then that if you move to a new city and there are some meeting there but their practices are quite different then just drop everything and be one with them.

I just believe they have moved away from the genuine practice of “keeping the oneness of the body” to the following of a ministry. I’m not a Witness Lee hater…….but have always preferred the writings of Watchman Nee over Witness Lee and I believe there are significant differences in their writings.

Oregon,

Point #1
That's been the teaching, but not the practice. Let's consider Moses Lake. By the time I moved to the NW, this locality was no longer considered a lc although I consider the Church in Moses Lake to be a genuine local church. There were saints who were clearly bothered when Moses Lake disassociated with Living Stream, so they moved to localities such as Spokane or churches in Western Washington.
In the last few years the same practice has occurred in places such as Toronto. Instead of keeping the genuine oneness of the Body, new local churches are created.

Point #2
That has been my experience too. I've read many books of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. In reading these books, I have gravitated more towards Watchman Nee. I just found WN's books easier to digest.

Terry

countmeworthy · 02-18-2009, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

Oregon,

Point #1
That's been the teaching, but not the practice. Let's consider Moses Lake. By the time I moved to the NW, this locality was no longer considered a lc although I consider the Church in Moses Lake to be a genuine local church. There were saints who were clearly bothered when Moses Lake disassociated with Living Stream, so they moved to localities such as Spokane or churches in Western Washington.
In the last few years the same practice has occurred in places such as Toronto. Instead of keeping the genuine oneness of the Body, new local churches are created.

Point #2
That has been my experience too. I've read many books of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee. In reading these books, I have gravitated more towards Watchman Nee. I just found WN's books easier to digest.

Terry, Igzy, Oregon and everyone lurking around......

I too find Watchman Nee's works more profound, yet easier to digest than Lee's. I have found many contradictions in Lee's writings in the RcV's footnotes as well!
He doesn't compare scripture with scripture all the time. I'll have to start writing some of the contradictions & post them. As an example, I have found he expounds a scripture on a footnote. Fine. He'll give a crossreference to it...but when you go to the referenced scripture/footnote, it's contrary to what he stated in the other footnote. And if not contrary, quite confusing!

The other thing about the LSM/LC is the 'Blended leading ones' don't study the Word of God for themselves. They take everything Lee wrote and have no clue that the LORD continuous to reveal His Word to us.
10-20 years ago, many things were hidden in the Bible. It was not time for the Lord to reveal the deep things of God to us. But today, God is opening our eyes...or at least those who are praying for God to open our eyes.

I've heard many a Bible 'scholar' say what they could not fathom or understand back then, the Lord is now revealing Himself in His Word.
The LSM/LC leaders won't do that! If Lee taught it, he couldn't have been wrong! Giving him the 'benefit of the doubt', maybe, JUST MAYBE, if Lee was alive today, he might have scrapped some of his preconceived thoughts.
Who knows... But it does take a humble spirit to admit you were wrong.

As for 'the church'...I don't keep up with all the discussions on the 'ground of the church'. Every born again believer is a member of the Body of Christ and the bible tells us the Body of Christ is the Church.
There should NOT be any divisions, any denominations, any non-denominations...no LSM/LC, no Pentecostals, No Evangelical movements, charasmatic movements, fundamental movements.
We have ONE BIBLE. We have ONE LORD. We have ONE FATHER. We have the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit residing in us.

What a testimony it would be and one day it will be.....to the world that we indeed are brothers/sisters in Christ..nothing separating us.
Nee & Lee and others I'm sure did have the teaching of 'one church..and how we should meet. But as Terry wrote, it was not the practice. In some places...perhaps...but not everywhere.

Oregon · 02-18-2009, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

Thanks for your story, Oregon. I was wondering a couple of things. (And I'm not trying to bait you into another local ground debate.) But I would like to know if there is an LSM following local church in your area and if so, how you reconcile your beliefs about locality with the fact that there may be one, two or many groups meeting on locality in your city, including one you don't care to meet with. I'm not trying to rope you in, I'm just really wondering how you deal with it and decide where to meet. Where do you meet now?

Like I said, I'm not trying to bait you. But I would really like to know. These are practical matters and I think others would be interested in your thoughts, as many are wandering in confusion on this issue. You can reply in one of the ground threads if you'd prefer.

There are no LSM churches in the locality I live in. There are 3 within 100 mile radius of me.

I have met in and on and off basis with a mission group that has an intensive ministry to the homeless population. I've also gone to some independant home meetings.

I have no problem with meeting with anyone anywhere. I listen to a lot of christian radio broadcasting and occasionally watch some of the christian broadcasting on TV. I am blessed to have some dear brothers in the Lord in my work circle that I fellowship with also. So I don't consider myself an isolated believer.

Idealistically though......I still believe that the writings of the NT show a oneness of the body expressed as local churches. Whether you believe we should continue to pursue that or not is a debatable issue. For me though......I believe that is how the church practiced it's assembling in those years.

countmeworthy · 02-18-2009, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oregon

There are no LSM churches in the locality I live in. There are 3 within 100 mile radius of me.

I have met in and on and off basis with a mission group that has an intensive ministry to the homeless population. I've also gone to some independant home meetings.

I have no problem with meeting with anyone anywhere. I listen to a lot of christian radio broadcasting and occasionally watch some of the christian broadcasting on TV. I am blessed to have some dear brothers in the Lord in my work circle that I fellowship with also. So I don't consider myself an isolated believer.

Whether you believe we should continue to pursue that or not is a debatable issue. For me though......I believe that is how the church practiced it's assembling in those years.

Oregon,
So how do you answer the question..of 'going to church'?

One problem I've always encountered among church going believers is the question "Where do YOU go to church?" I'd try to explain but
The reply was always "You need to be in a church. blah-blah-blah".

When I moved to this town, I decided I would start 'going to church'. I needed to shed the old LC wineskin & to meet fellow believers.

So overall, the church I meet with is Biblically sound & I meet weekly with some prayer partners. I've been to bible studies & a few home gatherings.

It's better than being isolated..and I have learned a lot.

juliep · 02-18-2009, 02:36 PM

Oregan, were you by chance around for the Gospel Marches? (I only ask because you spoke of the door knocking) They happened in the early 70's...My family was in Houston at the time when this was going on. There were people from the LC marching in the middle of the street with "Gospel Robes" on. The robes said all the favorite sayings like "Praise the Lord", "Oh Lord Jesus", etc. We had drums to march to, I can still remember, and beat out, some of the cadence - Lol. Individuals passed out "Gospel Tracts" while all this was going on, inviting people to the upcoming Love Feast. Quite the spectacle as I recall...
Wondering if anyone else remembers these?

Oregon · 02-18-2009, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by juliep

Oregan, were you by chance around for the Gospel Marches? (I only ask because you spoke of the door knocking) They happened in the early 70's...My family was in Houston at the time when this was going on. There were people from the LC marching in the middle of the street with "Gospel Robes" on. The robes said all the favorite sayings like "Praise the Lord", "Oh Lord Jesus", etc. We had drums to march to, I can still remember, and beat out, some of the cadence - Lol. Individuals passed out "Gospel Tracts" while all this was going on, inviting people to the upcoming Love Feast. Quite the spectacle as I recall...
Wondering if anyone else remembers these?

Yes I was...in fact I was a drummer. I still remember that cadence. I wore gospel robes and the whole 9 yards.

I'll tell you an interresting story.....when I was a senior in High School.....one of the college brothers talked me into wearing a gospel robe to school. So I did. I passed out tracks to students and when the break came after 2nd period I went across the street where all the smokers went. I preached the gosple to them and every one of them opened upto call on the Lord with me that day. A very memorable experience in my early years. The school admininistrators came down on me though and told me I could not pass out tracts on the school grounds.

This was the only time im my life where I think I may have had an angel with me.(don't laugh) After I preached the gosple to them a person standing there who I had never seen before said to them...."Let's all call on the Lord together".....and they all joined in with me to call upon the Lord's name. I have no idea who that person was and have never seen him since. Paul said that sometimes we entertain angels unawares.

I won't say it was or wasn't an angel but I know that they can appear in human form according to the Word of God.

countmeworthy · 02-18-2009, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oregon

Yes I was...in fact I was a drummer. I still remember that cadence. I wore gospel robes and the whole 9 yards.

I'll tell you an interresting story.....when I was a senior in High School.....one of the college brothers talked me into wearing a gospel robe to school. So I did. I passed out tracks to students and when the break came after 2nd period I went across the street where all the smokers went. I preached the gosple to them and every one of them opened upto call on the Lord with me that day. A very memorable experience in my early years. The school admininistrators came down on me though and told me I could not pass out tracts on the school grounds.

This was the only time im my life where I think I may have had an angel with me.(don't laugh) After I preached the gosple to them a person standing there who I had never seen before said to them...."Let's all call on the Lord together".....and they all joined in with me to call upon the Lord's name. I have no idea who that person was and have never seen him since. Paul said that sometimes we entertain angels unawares.

I won't say it was or wasn't an angel but I know that they can appear in human form according to the Word of God.

Oregon,
I'm SURE it was an ANGEL who was with you ! I have absolutely no doubt at all!
A 'quick' story about my angels...When I was in the LC, I saw TWO..that's right TWO bonifide angels on my way to a Hebrews training meeting. On my way to the meeting, my car got hit on the drivers' side with it's front end. I was driving a tiny 74 Honda Civic. They were tiny back then.

Nothing happened to me...not whiplash..zilch..nada. When the car stopped spinning, I looked up and saw TWO ANGELS by the front tire on the drivers side. It was only a glimpse & didn't think anything of it.

When I got out of the car, there was not a dent on my door but the area by the tire was smashed in.

When I picked it up after it had been in the shop for some time, the guy who worked on it, told me he was surprised I didn't suffer any injury..or worst because the inside door panel was all smashed in.

Immediately, I had a flashback of the Angels I saw. It occurred to me they moved the impact to the front by the tire. They were very tall an looked like angels..almost transparent but not quite..neither of them looked up at me nor was I surprised. It seemed 'natural' to me they were there.

----------
I had an 'out of the ordinary' salvation. I got saved at work. That evening I went to a new believers bible study. (I don't know what they called them back then.) The next evening I went to a 'corporate' prayer meeting & I got water baptized. The next evening was some other kind of meeting going on..the next evening, Thursday, I went DOOR KNOCKING with some sisters inviting people to the Saturday love feast which I had never even been to or heard of ! LOL! Friday evening ..another meeting...(are we exhausted yet?)
Saturday...my first 'Love Feast'...and Sunday morning, meeting/Lord's table.
----------
Monday night, I moved in with the saints.
P.S. The door knocking didn't bother me 'cause we were 4 or 5 and we had fun.

WHEW!

P.S.S. Angels are ministering spirits. They've been assigned to us by God. I thank the Lord almost daily for my angels. They've done an AWESOME job watching over me...I am not embarrassed to say I tell the LORD to BLESS my ANGELS! I even speak to them on occassion thanking them for looking after me & I look forward to meeting my angels and all the angels face to face some day. (now...YOU DON'T laugh!)

I have more stories about my angels but I'll share some other time...if anyone is interested.

juliep · 02-19-2009, 01:08 PM

I'm sure I've had Angels around me, or I wouldn't be sitting here. So no worries - no ones gonna poke fun of anyone for believing in them!

Mario · 03-04-2009, 09:24 AM

Then the Blended Brothers spoke all these words, saying,

1. Witness Lee is the acting God, who brought you out of the land of Babylon, out of the house of Christianity. You shall have no other ministers besides him.

2. You shall not make for yourself any publication, or any likeness of a footnote, except what LSM approves. You shall not read them or consider them; for LSM is a jealous organization, visiting the quarantines of the fathers and their children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who don’t follow us, but showing lovingkindness to hundreds, to those who love the ministry and read the approved Morning Revivals.

3. You shall not question the ministry of Witness Lee your minister, for the LSM will not leave him unpunished who takes Brother Lee’s ministry in a light way.

4. Remember the yearly Seven Feasts, to keep them holy. You shall have LSM approved local meetings and conferences during the year, but the Seven Feasts were established by Witness Lee your acting God; during them you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. For during the Seven Feasts Witness Lee made the footnotes, the Life Studies and all that is in them, and he himself established the Seven Feasts; therefore the LSM blessed the Seven Feasts and made them holy.

5. Honor your father and your mother, unless it interferes with the Seven Feasts, that your days may be prolonged in the churches which Witness Lee gave you, so you can go to more LSM events and buy their books.

6. You shall not murder, although despising your brothers in the denominations and the GLA is OK.

7. You shall not commit adultery, unless your spouse does not agree with LSM or follow the minister of the age, Witness Lee.

8. You shall not steal footnotes.

9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighboring Christians, unless it is for a good cause, like spreading the good news of LSM and the minister of the age, Witness Lee.

10. You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor, for why should you? Everything of any value is in Brother Lee’s footnotes as dispensed by the Blended Brothers
All the people perceived the thunder and the lightning flashes and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking from the many lawyers and threatening lawsuits by LSM; and when the people saw it, they trembled and stood at a distance. (Exiting Chapter 20)

UntoHim · 03-04-2009, 09:50 AM

Man, I'm so jealous.... I thought of coming up with something like this... but I couldn't have done it half as good!

Welcome to the forum Mario.

When you get a chance please go to the "Introduction and Testimonies" board and tell us a little about yourself.

Mario · 03-04-2009, 10:09 AM

Los 7 unos en Efesios 4;4-6
Un cuerpo, un Espíritu, una Esperanza, un Señor, una fe, un Bautismo, un Dios
Pero los de l a iglesia local añadieron más unos. Un Ministerio, un Liderazgo,
Una autoridad delegada, un oráculo Divino el Hermano Lee., una Literatura, una unidad, una iglesia recobrada, un solo terreno, los hermanos compenetrados la única autoridad en todo el universo, la única realidad del cuerpo de Cristo, el único lugar donde pueden salir los vencedores, la única iglesia verdadera, las 7 fiestas,

Cal · 03-04-2009, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mario

Los 7 unos en Efesios 4;4-6
Un cuerpo, un Espíritu, una Esperanza, un Señor, una fe, un Bautismo, un Dios
Pero los de l a iglesia local añadieron más unos. Un Ministerio, un Liderazgo,
Una autoridad delegada, un oráculo Divino el Hermano Lee., una Literatura, una unidad, una iglesia recobrada, un solo terreno, los hermanos compenetrados la única autoridad en todo el universo, la única realidad del cuerpo de Cristo, el único lugar donde pueden salir los vencedores, la única iglesia verdadera, las 7 fiestas,

Translation:

About 7 in Ephesians 4, 4-6
One body, one Spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God
But the local church added a few more. A Ministry, leadership,
A delegated authority, a divine oracle Brother Lee., A literature, a unit recovered a church, a single field, the brothers committed the only authority throughout the universe, one reality of the body of Christ, the only place where they can emerge the victors, the only true church, the 7 feasts

Ohio · 03-04-2009, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Man, I'm so jealous.... I thought of coming up with something like this... but I couldn't have done it half as good!

Welcome to the forum Mario.

When you get a chance please go to the "Introduction and Testimonies" board and tell us a little about yourself.

UntoHim, I'm not sure who wrote this originally, but ... I received it weeks ago and posted it elsewhere ...

http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...read.php?t=359

Regardless, welcome Mario, our one hundredth "customer."

UntoHim · 03-04-2009, 02:41 PM

Ah, I see that now brudder Ohio... thanks!

And yes, ding, ding, ding, congrats to Mario for being the 100th member!!

And Mario wins........ NADA

-

UntoHim · 03-04-2009, 02:49 PM

Thanks to Igzy for the translation. My Spanish is mucho rusty.

To Mario: In the future if you could just provide the translation for us that would be best. Any longer/significant posts should probably be made in English.
Gracias mi hermano!

-

ABrotherInChrist · 03-05-2009, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mario

Los 7 unos en Efesios 4;4-6
Un cuerpo, un Espíritu, una Esperanza, un Señor, una fe, un Bautismo, un Dios
Pero los de l a iglesia local añadieron más unos. Un Ministerio, un Liderazgo,
Una autoridad delegada, un oráculo Divino el Hermano Lee., una Literatura, una unidad, una iglesia recobrada, un solo terreno, los hermanos compenetrados la única autoridad en todo el universo, la única realidad del cuerpo de Cristo, el único lugar donde pueden salir los vencedores, la única iglesia verdadera, las 7 fiestas,

Hmmm. Igzy's translation was a bit off...

The 7 ones in Ephesians 4:4-6

One body, one Spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God.
But those of the local church added more ones. One Ministry, one leadership, one delegated authority, one Divine Oracle - the Brother Lee, one Literature, one unity, one recovered church, only one territory, the Blended Brothers being the unique authority in all the universe, the unique reality of the Body of Christ, the unique place from which can come the overcomers, the unique true church, the 7 feasts...

I think that's a bit closer

UntoHim · 03-05-2009, 07:38 AM

Ok, while you two Espanol heavyweights are duking it out, does anybody know where the 10 Commandments spoof and this Ephesians 4 redo came from?

-

djohnson · 03-05-2009, 08:51 AM

Has Dong Yu Lan been quarantined by the Blended Prattlers yet? Frankly I'm a bit surprised he wasn't just lumped in with Chu & Co since apparently he has been thumbing his nose at the one publication papal policy of the LSM for quite some time.

Cal · 03-05-2009, 12:15 PM

My translation was courtesy of Google Translate.

ABrotherInChrist · 03-05-2009, 02:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

My translation was courtesy of Google Translate.

Heheh. I thought it looked... mechanical. The only one I may have translated not right for LSMese is the one unity... On second thought, that might be supposed to be one accord.

Heh. And my wife complains that I don't speak Spanish... There's a big difference between being able to read/understand it and actually knowing what words to use to generate useful sentences... And how to conjugate the verbs.

Mario · 03-11-2009, 07:16 PM

La Biblia nos llama para seguir a Cristo

Por muchos años de mi vida Cristiana, di mi vida a seguir a un hombre y su ministerio, mi lealtad asía el llego hacer un vehiculo de engaño que me aparto de Aquel quien me llamo para Seguirle

La Biblia nos llama para seguir a Cristo, pero la historia nos muestra repetidas veces que el hombre es propenso de seguir al hombre, y que el hombre sea su centro.

Pablo les dijo a la iglesia 1Corintios 3:4 Porque diciendo el uno: Yo ciertamente soy de Pablo; y el otro: Yo soy de Apolos, ¿no sois carnales?

En la iglesia local cometimos este mismo error de seguir a un hombre Witness Lee.
Pablo fue un vaso escogido por El Señor con el único propósito de darle una revelación en la era del Nuevo Testamento.

Satanás sin embargo cambio y mal uso esta verdad para convencernos, de que Dios tiene una persona como Pablo en cada era y que Wintness Lee es el hombre para este tiempo para esta era. Yo ya no creo que Dios tenga solo un hombre para este tiempo en la tierra como Su portavoz y que todos tengamos que seguirlo. La Biblia no enseña esto.

La Historia nos enseña que en cada periodo de tiempo de un avivamiento desde la Resurrección de Cristo hasta el presente ha sido con una multitud de creyentes, y no tenían que seguir a uno exclusivamente.

Yo creo como la Biblia dice que Pablo era un vaso escogido y que su vida era un modelo. Pablo no era un modelo para mostrarnos que Dios solo tiene un hombre en cada era y que tenemos que seguir a ese hombre no, la Biblia dice en 1Timoteo 1:16 Pero por esto fui recibido a misericordia, para que Jesucristo mostrase en mí el primero toda su clemencia, para ejemplo de los que habrían de creer en él para vida eterna. Apocalipsis 14:4 Estos son los que siguen al Cordero por dondequiera que va.

La Historia Cristiana comenzando en la iglesia en Corintios nos muestra que ellos querían tener un único Líder y ha este tenían que seguir, ellos decian, Yo ciertamente soy de Pablo; y el otro: Yo soy de Apolos, ¿no sois carnales?

Nuestra humanidad caída le gusta formar partidos alrededor de los líderes. Cuando Pablo escucho que en la iglesia en Corintos dijeron que ellos eran de Pablo, El no acepto esta exclamación acerca de El, pero al contrario Pablo los corrigió por esta clase de exaltación y les predico el mensaje de la cruz. Pero Witness Lee y muchos otros hoy día reciben la exaltación y buscan sus seguidores, y no llevan a la gente a tener una intima comunión y seguir Aquel que murió por ellos Cristo. Saludes de Mario y Dora Sandoval

Mario · 03-11-2009, 07:19 PM

[quote=Mario;6073]La Biblia nos llama para seguir a Cristo

Por muchos años de mi vida Cristiana, di mi vida a seguir a un hombre y su ministerio, mi lealtad asía el llego hacer un vehiculo de engaño que me aparto de Aquel quien me llamo para Seguirle

La Biblia nos llama para seguir a Cristo, pero la historia nos muestra repetidas veces que el hombre es propenso de seguir al hombre, y que el hombre sea su centro.

Pablo les dijo a la iglesia 1Corintios 3:4 Porque diciendo el uno: Yo ciertamente soy de Pablo; y el otro: Yo soy de Apolos, ¿no sois carnales?

En la iglesia local cometimos este mismo error de seguir a un hombre Witness Lee.
Pablo fue un vaso escogido por El Señor con el único propósito de darle una revelación en la era del Nuevo Testamento.

Satanás sin embargo cambio y mal uso esta verdad para convencernos, de que Dios tiene una persona como Pablo en cada era y que Wintness Lee es el hombre para este tiempo para esta era. Yo ya no creo que Dios tenga solo un hombre para este tiempo en la tierra como Su portavoz y que todos tengamos que seguirlo. La Biblia no enseña esto.

La Historia nos enseña que en cada periodo de tiempo de un avivamiento desde la Resurrección de Cristo hasta el presente ha sido con una multitud de creyentes, y no tenían que seguir a uno exclusivamente.

Yo creo como la Biblia dice que Pablo era un vaso escogido y que su vida era un modelo. Pablo no era un modelo para mostrarnos que Dios solo tiene un hombre en cada era y que tenemos que seguir a ese hombre no, la Biblia dice en 1Timoteo 1:16 Pero por esto fui recibido a misericordia, para que Jesucristo mostrase en mí el primero toda su clemencia, para ejemplo de los que habrían de creer en él para vida eterna. Apocalipsis 14:4 Estos son los que siguen al Cordero por dondequiera que va.

La Historia Cristiana comenzando en la iglesia en Corintios nos muestra que ellos querían tener un único Líder y ha este tenían que seguir, ellos decian, Yo ciertamente soy de Pablo; y el otro: Yo soy de Apolos, ¿no sois carnales?

Nuestra humanidad caída le gusta formar partidos alrededor de los líderes. Cuando Pablo escucho que en la iglesia en Corintos dijeron que ellos eran de Pablo, El no acepto esta exclamación acerca de El, pero al contrario Pablo los corrigió por esta clase de exaltación y les predico el mensaje de la cruz. Pero Witness Lee y muchos otros hoy día reciben la exaltación y buscan sus seguidores, y no llevan a la gente a tener una intima comunión y seguir Aquel que murió por ellos Cristo.

Mario · 03-11-2009, 07:22 PM

La Biblia nos llama para seguir a Cristo

Por muchos años de mi vida Cristiana, di mi vida a seguir a un hombre y su ministerio, mi lealtad asía el llego hacer un vehiculo de engaño que me aparto de Aquel quien me llamo para Seguirle

La Biblia nos llama para seguir a Cristo, pero la historia nos muestra repetidas veces que el hombre es propenso de seguir al hombre, y que el hombre sea su centro.

Pablo les dijo a la iglesia 1Corintios 3:4 Porque diciendo el uno: Yo ciertamente soy de Pablo; y el otro: Yo soy de Apolos, ¿no sois carnales?

En la iglesia local cometimos este mismo error de seguir a un hombre Witness Lee.
Pablo fue un vaso escogido por El Señor con el único propósito de darle una revelación en la era del Nuevo Testamento.

Satanás sin embargo cambio y mal uso esta verdad para convencernos, de que Dios tiene una persona como Pablo en cada era y que Wintness Lee es el hombre para este tiempo para esta era. Yo ya no creo que Dios tenga solo un hombre para este tiempo en la tierra como Su portavoz y que todos tengamos que seguirlo. La Biblia no enseña esto.

La Historia nos enseña que en cada periodo de tiempo de un avivamiento desde la Resurrección de Cristo hasta el presente ha sido con una multitud de creyentes, y no tenían que seguir a uno exclusivamente.

Yo creo como la Biblia dice que Pablo era un vaso escogido y que su vida era un modelo. Pablo no era un modelo para mostrarnos que Dios solo tiene un hombre en cada era y que tenemos que seguir a ese hombre no, la Biblia dice en 1Timoteo 1:16 Pero por esto fui recibido a misericordia, para que Jesucristo mostrase en mí el primero toda su clemencia, para ejemplo de los que habrían de creer en él para vida eterna. Apocalipsis 14:4 Estos son los que siguen al Cordero por dondequiera que va.

La Historia Cristiana comenzando en la iglesia en Corintios nos muestra que ellos querían tener un único Líder y ha este tenían que seguir, ellos decian, Yo ciertamente soy de Pablo; y el otro: Yo soy de Apolos, ¿no sois carnales?

Nuestra humanidad caída le gusta formar partidos alrededor de los líderes. Cuando Pablo escucho que en la iglesia en Corintos dijeron que ellos eran de Pablo, El no acepto esta exclamación acerca de El, pero al contrario Pablo los corrigió por esta clase de exaltación y les predico el mensaje de la cruz. Pero Witness Lee y muchos otros hoy día reciben la exaltación y buscan sus seguidores, y no llevan a la gente a tener una intima comunión y seguir Aquel que murió por ellos Cristo.

cityonahill · 03-11-2009, 07:22 PM

HAHAHAHA

Let's see you try to translate that one ABIC!:veryconfused:

I think I see something in there about tamales? chips n' queso? no?

IDon'tKnow · 03-11-2009, 08:22 PM

Here is google translates translation of mario's post.

The Bible calls us to follow Christ

For many years of my Christian life, gave my life to follow a man and his ministry, my loyalty Asia came to a vehicle of deception to me away from Him who called me to follow

The Bible calls us to follow Christ, but history repeatedly shows us that man is prone to follow the man and that man is the center.

Paul told the church 1Corinthians 3:4 For the one saying, "I certainly am of Paul, and the other, I am of Apollos, are you not carnal?

In the local church that mistake of following a man Witness Lee.
Paul was a vessel chosen by God for the sole purpose of giving a revelation in the Era of the New Testament.

Satan however change misuse and to convince us this truth, that God has a person like Paul in every age and Wintness Lee is the man for this time for this era. I no longer believe that God has only one man for this time on earth as His spokesman, and that all have to follow. The Bible does not teach this.

History teaches us that each time a revival since the Resurrection of Christ until the present has been a multitude of believers, and they had to follow an exclusively.

I believe as the Bible says that Paul was a chosen vessel and that his life was a model. Paul was not a model to show that God is only one man in every age and that we should not follow that man, the Bible says on this 1Timoteo 1:16 But I received mercy, so that Jesus Christ showed me the first all his mercy, for example those who would believe in him for eternal life. Revelation 14:4 These are they who follow the Lamb wherever he goes.

Christian history beginning in the church in Corinthians tells us that they wanted to have a single leader and this has had to follow, they said, I certainly am of Paul, and the other, I am of Apollos, are you not carnal?

Our humanity will fall like form parties around the leaders. When Paul heard that the church at Corinth were told that they were of Paul, the exclamation point on this I do not accept it, but unlike Paul corrected this sort of exaltation, and preach the message of the cross. But Witness Lee and many others today are looking for the excitement and his followers, and not lead people to have an intimate communion and follow Him that Christ died for them.

Admin · 08-04-2009, 07:21 AM

Fellowship Concerning Europe
2009-07-03
FELLOWSHIP CONCERNING EUROPE-SUMMER 2009

In 1977 Brother Lee gave a conference in Europe (printed in The Kernel of the Bible, published by Living Stream Ministry) and spoke about the Lord's return and the need for churches to be raised up in Europe :

The time is short. The Lord is coming soon. As we have pointed out, before His coming back, He needs to complete the building of the church. It would be a shame to Him to come back without finishing this. Look at today's Christianity. Look at the Catholic Church, the denominations, and the free groups. What a mess! What a confusion! Is not all this a shame to the Lord? How could He come back to such a situation? Where is the fulfillment of His word in Matthew 16 that He will build His church? Where is the church built upon the rock? For the sake of His coming back, the Lord must build the church.

Now I want to say strongly that the Lord must build His church in the territory of Antichrist . Before Antichrist appears, the Lord Jesus must build His churches in Western Europe . Although many Christians are waiting for the Lord to come back, He is waiting for the building up of His churches. Praise the Lord that our eyes have been opened to see the need of the building of the local churches! In Italy , France , Switzerland , England , Holland , Denmark , Sweden , and Norway there is such a need. (The Kernel of the Bible, p. 186-187)

Today, 32 years after Brother Lee spoke these words, we are greatly encouraged by the response of some who have recently emigrated to some of the countries mentioned above.

The Current Situation in Europe

- There are now 63 lampstands in 23 European countries.

- Another 48 localities are meeting in oneness and should begin taking the Lord's table very soon.

- In France , England , Greece , Spain , Holland , Sweden , Ireland , and Germany , there are small teams laboring fulltime on university campuses in major cities. The full-timers and local saints in these cities have reached many people who are open and wanting more contact and fellowship.

- In the United Kingdom , in the cities of London , Cambridge , Norwich , and Reading there are 28 full-timers laboring on eight teams at various universities. These saints have been in contact with hundreds of students in the last year. However, our labor has shown that 'the harvest is great but the workers few' (Matthew 9:37). The numbers of those who respond to us are consistently far more than the saints who can take care of them.

The Situation in the United Kingdom

- In the UK there are 29 cities that have a university student population of over 20,000. Of these cities, 9 have 50,000 students or more. There are saints living in only 10 of the 29 cities. This means that there are 19 cities with major universities of at least 20,000 students with no saints living there.

- In London, of the 2,442 listeners of Life-study of the Bible who have called in the last year, over 500 have requested contact by phone or are willing to open their homes for a time in the word and to go to homes nearby to join in a home meeting.

- Yet there is still no lampstand in many major cities of the United Kingdom , including York , Liverpool, Manchester , Sheffield, Belfast , Cardiff , Edinburgh , and Glasgow . There are radio listeners and Rhema recipients in all 50 major cities in England as well as the major cities in Wales , Scotland , and Northern Ireland .

There is a vast need for many more to come and join those in the cities mentioned by Brother Lee, as well as to go to so many more of the major cities throughout Europe where there is no one living the church life. In every European city where the saints are laboring to find the seeking ones, more and more seeking ones are responding. In Austria, Belgium, France, Germany, Holland, Norway, Sweden, Spain, Switzerland, UK, Republic of Ireland, Poland, Romania, and Hungary, thousands of copies of Rhema sets 1, 2, and 3 have been distributed. However, there is still no distribution in many European countries. This is due mainly to the small number of saints who have emigrated to labor so far. So, although we are encouraged by the situation, it seems that the response to the word our brother spoke 32 years ago has been slow. In this same conference, Brother Lee spoke very specifically about our going:

How I long that you all would be burdened to go to the major cities in Europe that the Lord might have a church in each of them! You need to say, 'Lord, burden me to go to Paris for the church life. Lord, burden me to go to Rome so that You may have a church there. O Lord, burden me for a church in Stockholm .' If you are faithful to the Lord, honest with Him, and willing to be burdened, even five or seven could move to a city to start the church life there. So many cities need a shining lampstand. Paris needs one! Geneva needs one! Western Europe is not a heathen land like Mongolia or Tibet . It is an old region saturated with Christianity. But where is the church? Although this is a land of Christendom , of Christianity, where is the church? Can the Lord Jesus come back to the Church of England? Can He come back to the confusion in the free groups? If the Lord came back today, He would be ashamed because the Bride has not been prepared. Suppose it is the day of your wedding, and your bride is not present. Would that not be a shame to you? Certainly no bridegroom would come, stand, and wait for his bride until he was assured that she was prepared and adorned for him. The Lord Jesus is coming as the Bridegroom for the Bride. But where is the Bride in all of Western Europe ?

This is not a matter of doctrine. I hate the mere doctrine of the church. I want to see some genuine, living churches. I do not care for the number that are in these churches. If there could be a church in Rome with a hundred fifty people who are shining, filled with Christ, and immersed in Christ, the Lord would be able to boast to Satan. He could say, 'Satan, in your city of Rome I have a shining church!' Brothers , you all must be burdened for the churches in Europe . (The Kernel of the Bible, pp.187-188)

Brother Lee spoke further about the Lord's calling for those who would be willing to come and labor:

Young people, the Lord needs churches, and you must bear the burden for this. Surely the Lord desires a church in Madrid , the capital of the old Catholic country of Spain . Who is willing to be burdened to go there? The Lord is calling for this. Who will go to Paris ? To London ? To Rome ? In these dark cities there is no lampstand. Oh, the Lord is calling! Who is willing to be burdened to go to a major city in Europe so that the Lord may have a church there? The Lord is calling! He is calling you and me to bear the burden for the major cities in Europe that He may have churches built up in the territory of the coming Antichrist. Go and tell others that today the Lord needs churches! (The Kernel of the Bible, p. 188)

Although there are now churches in Madrid, London, Stockholm, and Paris, there is still no solid and shining lampstand in Rome, Milan, Florence, Venice, Vienna, Marseilles, Geneva, Luxembourg, Bonn, Munich, Copenhagen, and countless other large cities throughout the Western European countries. There are also a number of large cities in Poland , Romania , and Hungary in Eastern Europe where there is no lampstand. The situation seems overwhelming when we consider such a great need.

However, we are happy to declare that within the past few months, saints have begun to meet as a local expression of the Lord's universal Body in Bristol , England , one of the largest cities in England with a key university. Recently, the first Lord's table meeting was supported by approximately 200 saints from throughout the UK . Saints have been meeting in Bristol for some time, and the feeling in the Body was that the time was ripe for the Lord to have His testimony in this key city. In the 17th and 18th centuries, Bristol was a key city for the labor of John Wesley and George Muller. Now the Lord has His lampstand in this key city.

Also, saints have been meeting in Milan , Italy , for over three years with the desire to take a strong stand as a lampstand. Due to the influence of another work in Italy the past few years, the saints have been waiting for the right time to take such a stand. In fellowship in the Lord's Body, the time now seems right to do so. Therefore, the saints will gather on September 27, 2009, to have the first Lord's table meeting in the city of Milan . Those wishing to attend and to stand with these dear saints will find the particulars at:

www.amanatrust.org.uk/events/conf2009/italy.php

Brother Lee spoke of a simple way for each one of us to take if we are willing:

Forty-five years ago I was in a situation where there was no church. Every morning I rose up early, went to the top of a mountain, and prayed to the Lord. No one had taught me to call on His name, but there on the mountain I practiced calling on the Lord. Every morning I cried to the Lord, calling on His name and saying, 'Lord, what do You want me to do? Lord, as a young man, I am here and I am ready. I am ready for You, for Your interests, for Your kingdom and for Your move on earth.' I prayed like this for nine months. Eventually, in that city the Lord started the church life, and that church became very prevailing. Because of that church, many churches were raised up in the north, northeast, and northwest of China . Oh, the Lord is able! He can do it! But it all depends on you. Are you willing for this? (The Kernel of the Bible, p. 188-189)

OBW · 08-04-2009, 11:28 AM

If Lee had a heart for the unsaved more than a desire to see his exclusive sect spread throughout Europe and the rest of the world, what a testimony this would have been! But he had almost nothing to say about the unsaved. He only spoke of his disdain for other Christians who were not of his flock.

Then his replacements only spoke of going to university campuses, mentioning 29 cities in the UK with 20,000 or more students.

While they did mention that the harvest is great, only contact with students is mentioned. What about the day-laborers and skilled craftsmen, businessmen/women, teachers, artists, cooks, business owners, etc.? Is the call selective? Are those beyond college age also beyond hope? Why not go door knocking in these cities? What about the many-times-greater number of cities without college campuses? Are they Satan's stronghold and it is presumed that his gates will prevail against the church when it comes knocking?

And why is it that the gospel being preached is not considered the cornerstone of the return of the Lord? Instead, is it the establishment of a congregation of a particular sect that will bring the Lord back? I do not find that stated anywhere in scripture. I must presume that their labor in the harvest is primarily to gain converts to their sect. Or am I wrong? Will they labor on an unsaved preson and bring them the word that brings them to salvation even if they expect that they will simply go down the street to one of those exciting "Emerging" churches? I suspect that their interest will disappear when they realize that the new convert, or even member of some other sect is not going to join in their "Church in City" sect.

Surely the Western European situation is ripe for the gospel because Christianity has all but been expunged, and even though it is beginning to show some rebound, it is still a shadow of what it once was. The great buildings of past years (even outside of the RCC cathedrals) would collapse without being designated as historical sites and museums with only a minuscule congregation using the facilities in some cases. But the need is Christ. If they receive Christ, there is the church because they will meet. No special sect is required.

The myopia that passes itself off as the only one for the age doesn't even seem to care about the gospel, just its sect. This is the words of Lee taken to even more ridiculous extremes by people who would institutionalize his shortsightedness.

countmeworthy · 08-04-2009, 01:08 PM

[QUOTE=OBW;6971]

Quote:

If Lee had a heart for the unsaved more than a desire to see his exclusive sect spread throughout Europe and the rest of the world, what a testimony this would have been! ...... He only spoke of his disdain for other Christians who were not of his flock.

Not defending Lee......however, in giving him the benefit of the doubt, perhaps MAYBE--JUST Maybe, he saw the 'parishiners' of the Lord's Recovery aging in the late 70's when the move to the campus work 'ignited'.

But among the many problems of their mentality is that when something new comes up and they don't move on beyond it. The only thing that seems to change is the LR terminology.

I do not know how successful the campus work and the BFA's project has been. Do you? Does anyone? I know GOD wants every soul to be saved..young and OLD.

From my vantage point......and being far removed from the LSM other than through an LSM friend I have, my guess it is NOT very successful. I hear the discouragement that the youth are soo troubled...without direction...without purpose.......and these are the LSM college kids!! What's sadder is the LSM parents do not appear to take any responsibility for their kids lack of motivation. They don't stop and consider perhaps SOMETHING in them or in the LR system is driving their youth away and YET they continue to bombard the college campus with their incessant drives and distribution of the BofA brochures.

Quote:

What about the day-laborers and skilled craftsmen, businessmen/women, teachers, artists, cooks, business owners, etc.? Is the call selective? Are those beyond college age also beyond hope?

Yeah....if I read my bible correctly, there were not very many college educated men and women that Jesus reached out to. The Pharasees and company were intellectuals in the Jewish law and thus I would consider them 'college' educated but few, very few left their dogmatic ways to receive THE WAY--THE TRUTH and THE LIFE.

Quote:

And why is it that the gospel being preached is not considered the cornerstone of the return of the Lord? Instead, is it the establishment of a congregation of a particular sect that will bring the Lord back?

Oh. You know why OBM....

Their eyes and hearts are fixed on the footnotes of the RcV. Can you imagine them reading the RcV without reading the footnotes?

Quote:

I must presume that their labor in the harvest is primarily to gain converts to their sect. Or am I wrong?

You presume correctly and are not wrong.

Quote:

Will they labor on an unsaved person and bring them the word that brings them to salvation...

I don't know but I hope each and everyone reading and posting on this forum and the other one does reach out to the unsaved as well as feed the sheep, building and edifying the Body of Christ. We know what they are focused on. But speaking for myself, I must be careful not to try pulling out the stick in their eye while not paying attention to the log in my own if I have one.

Quote:

Surely the Western European situation is ripe for the gospel because Christianity has all but been expunged, and even though it is beginning to show some rebound,

There are many people evangelizing Europe these days. It may not be where it should be..but neither is this country !

awareness · 08-04-2009, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Admin quotes bro Lee:
The time is short. The Lord is coming soon. As we have pointed out, before His coming back, He needs to complete the building of the church. It would be a shame to Him to come back without finishing this.

What a contradiction in logic. Lee says : "It would be a shame to Him to come back without finishing this." So, if the Lord is doing the building of the church, and the Lord is coming back when it's done, is the Lord unable to do it before be comes back? Whacky logic.

Quote:

Lee continues:
Look at today's Christianity. Look at the Catholic Church, the denominations, and the free groups. What a mess! What a confusion! Is not all this a shame to the Lord?

No, what a shame is Lee offending the Lord within me, and attacking the Lord working in the hearts of many many others. Again flawed logic. Lee wants to build the church while attacking the Lord working in members of His own body, that's not following Lee. Flawed logic, and great arrogance as well. It's shame projected back upon Lee. Shame, shame, shame.

Quote:

Lee continues:
How could He come back to such a situation? Where is the fulfillment of His word in Matthew 16 that He will build His church? Where is the church built upon the rock? For the sake of His coming back, the Lord must build the church.

This, of course, implies that the Lord hasn't been able to build His church ; not until the illustrious Lee came along. It dismisses what Paul did, and all others thru 20 centuries, and darws a caricature of the Lord that makes Him weak and inadequate...but now that Lee came along, the Lord is back on His feet. I guess the Lord should bow to Lee.

Quote:

Now I want to say strongly that the Lord must build His church in the territory of Antichrist . Before Antichrist appears, the Lord Jesus must build His churches in Western Europe . Although many Christians are waiting for the Lord to come back, He is waiting for the building up of His churches.

Like Lee knows what the Lord is doing! Wow! The arrogance is astounding. Also, not only is Lee using the returning of the Lord to manipulate the sheep, an old old trick, that has bamboozled many sheep, but he's also now using the appearance of the Anti-Christ. Lee is using fear to drive the sheep.

Quote:

Praise the Lord that our eyes have been opened to see the need of the building of the local churches!

Doesn't he mean : "Praise me....praise Lee?" He's already more than implied that the Lord can't build His church without him, and without him opening our eyes. Praise Lee, praise Lee, praise Lee.

Quote:

Admin:
Today, 32 years after Brother Lee spoke these words, we are greatly encouraged by the response of some who have recently emigrated to some of the countries mentioned above.

Admin I appreciate your zeal, but I think you've allowed excitement and enthusiasm to let your thinking get ahead of you. Just remember, the Lord's recovery is a falsehood. The Lord hasn't ever lost His church...NEVER. How can you question the Lord's ability to build His church? Don't you think you should rethink all of this?

countmeworthy · 08-04-2009, 03:22 PM

Thank you Awareness for your comments.

I was very disturbed by Admin's posts. For some reason it escaped me to think he/she might be an LSMr even though all the SIGNS were there.

Quote:

What a contradiction in logic. Lee says : "It would be a shame to Him to come back without finishing this." So, if the Lord is doing the building of the church, and the Lord is coming back when it's done, is the Lord unable to do it before be comes back? Whacky logic

I almost GAGGED at this statement because not only was it filled with LEE'S personal CARNAL opinion, he INSULTED the WORD of GOD-Jesus HIMSELF. Only 8 people went into the ARK. Only Lot & his daughters escaped Saddom and Gomorrah...his own wife sort of escaped but didn't get far. When God's appointed time comes to send His SON back for His RIGHTEOUS Saints, he'll do it...LSM or no LSM. Lee or no LEE. And though I know Lee had hoped Jesus would return in his lifetime. He didn't. I pray and believe the LORD IS returning in ours...and sooner than we think.

Furthermore, this is part of Lee's dangerous teachings about the 'ground of the church'...'the Lord's recovery'. It screwed up people's minds AND their hearts. This is why many people in the 70's were afraid to leave Lee's church. Many of us were looking for the LORD to return back then...were excited...but if we left the LR, then would we be 'left behind'?

Quote:

It's shame projected back upon Lee. Shame, shame, shame.

Indeed.

Quote:

Admin I appreciate your zeal,

I don't because it is misplaced. He put Lee's word above the WORD OF GOD-OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST. He/she may argue I'm wrong and it's not true...but why do you suppose the LORD harshly chastised the believers in Luke when He told them "DEPART from me you workers of iniquity! I never knew YOU." These people were casting out demons in the Name of Jesus, not buddah, allah or timbuktu. They were prophesying in HIS Name.

We all must be very careful who we put up on a pedestal. For this reason, I will read many commentaries even though there are some whose commentaries on the Word of God are extremely anointed. I do not want them to be my king. GOD, the FATHER, JESUS-HIS WORD-and HIS HOLY SPIRIT, the Voice of God, the Spirit of GOD come first and foremost. I worship HIM with all my my spirit, my heart, and my soul.

P.S.
Btw.....the CHURCH, the BODY of CHRIST is of utmost important to the LORD. He LOVES His church and desires it and WILL sanctify it....setting her apart that she is Holy, Pleasing and Acceptable to GOD. We ought to be preparing ourselves as a BRIDE is preparing herself for her Wedding day to unite with her Bridegroom.

But the 'church', the 'Bride of Christ' IS NOT EXCLUSIVE to the "Lord's recovery' and Lee's teachings! ALL born again believers make up the Body of Christ. But not everyone in the Body of Christ will be part of the BRIDE of CHRIST. Carnal born again believers who do not walk and live in Righteousness will not be part of the BRIDE.
(That's another topic for another time.)

YP0534 · 08-05-2009, 04:06 AM

I'm pretty sure Admin is NOT a current member of the Local Church, friends.

The posts were copied from elsewhere, as has been done from time to time, to keep we "negatives" informed about the current activities of the "positives", especially in their antics abroad.

I'm sure Admin will speak directly to this issue since there is now confusion.

In fact, I believe Admin may also reveal their customary username at this juncture to further clarify the situation.

Admin?

UntoHim · 08-05-2009, 06:27 AM

YP you left out the part about "anything you say can and will be used against you"

When posting things like this I thought it would be less distracting if I used the generic "Admin" - that's what I get for thinking.

YP0534 · 08-05-2009, 07:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

YP you left out the part about "anything you say can and will be used against you"

When posting things like this I thought it would be less distracting if I used the generic "Admin" - that's what I get for thinking.

Actually, now that we're mentioning it, I think I had the impression that you may have shared that Admin ID with another for handling technical site management issues but that all substantive postings under the Admin ID were most likely yours.

But I admit to not being 100% positive about it in every case...

awareness · 08-05-2009, 08:00 AM

UnToHim,

Well I sure was off base then. Sorry UTH. I sure don't think you need to re-think these matters.

And so I guess I can't really talk to the one, or ones, that wrote all that claptrap about Europe and Brazil. Pity..... I would have liked a discussion with the writer, or writers.

But thanks for posting them..

Koinonia · 03-02-2017, 04:42 AM

An Urgent Need Regarding the Lord's Move in Europe

Dear ....,

We wanted to open to you a very specific burden that was released during the recent Special Conference that took place in lieu of the International Chinese-speaking Conference. The general subject of this time was Special Fellowship Concerning the World Situation and the Lord's Move and was both a direct continuation and a practical outworking of the high truths concerning God's move that are revealed in the book of Ezekiel. The messages are available at www.lsmwebcast.com listed as the last item under '"Conferences" in the "Audio Archives" section.

As most of you are aware, the recent shifts in the world situation have allowed unprecedented access to refugees from predominantly Muslim countries and afforded the Lord a way to work among the German people as He has not been able to do for many years. With this in view, the brothers released a very particular burden regarding the Lord's current move, specifically in the direction of Europe. It was opened that we firstly need to know this age and the present truth (which is to live in the tide of God's will) in order to cooperate with God to carry out His move. We also need a vision of God's sovereignty and an understanding of the universal history - the divine history that is hidden within the human history. Regarding this universal history, the outline of message two points out that, "The Roman Empire was for the gospel; Germany was for the Reformation; Great Britain was for the spreading of the gospel and of the truth; and now the United States has become the center for the recovery, from which it can spread to all the continents." It is striking that the world situation has always been the indicator of God's move on earth.

Having recovered gospel preaching, teaching the Bible, and the proper way of meeting, God's ultimate recovery - His ultimate move - is to gain a people who have Christ as their life and live Him. The Lord needs His recovered truths to be spread to the whole earth by such Christ-filled and Christ-living men. This is our ultimate responsibility - to be saturated with Christ for the Body, to bear the testimony of Jesus, and to spread the testimony of Jesus by following the Lamb wherever He may go. Finally, the conference concluded with a rich message full of practical points regarding our working under the leading of the Spirit while honoring the Head and being balanced by the Body.

At the end of this timely and weighty conference, a special word was given regarding the current situation and the current needs with regard to the Lord's move in Germany. While there are many ways to participate (which will be enumerated in forthcoming emails), there is a particularly urgent need at this time. A distribution of hundreds of thousands of Recovery Version Bibles and ministry books across Europe is planned for the week following the International Training for Elders and Responsible Ones (ITERO) in Leipzig, Germany, this October. Living Stream Ministry (LSM) must place an order for these by the end of March. The need for this distribution matches, if not surpasses, that of the distribution in South America several years ago. Please consider before the Lord how you might be able to contribute to the purchase of Bibles and books for the distribution across Europe.

Link to special fellowship: http://lordsmove.org/oldsite/reportspecial2017.html

Please send any offerings to LSM and designate them as "Bibles for Europe," as follows:

By mail: (Check payable to "Living Stream Ministry")
Living Stream Ministry
2431 W. La Palma Ave.
Anaheim, CA 92801
By bank wire: Please send an email to gail@lsm.org for instructions
By credit card: Please call (714) 991-4681

If it is not possible to send offerings to LSM, send them to LME at www.lordsmove.org/offerings.html with the designation "Bibles for Europe."

Yours faithfully,

Brothers serving with LivingtoHim.com

leastofthese · 03-02-2017, 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Living Stream Ministry (LSM) must place an order for these by the end of March. The need for this distribution matches, if not surpasses, that of the distribution in South America several years ago. Please consider before the Lord how you might be able to contribute to the purchase of Bibles and books for the distribution across Europe.

Just over a year ago I was in Anaheim and sat in a room while someone pitched this idea. I've also talked with full time brothers that made 1-2 week trips to Germany last year - so I have an understanding about what this has looked like. They're not as interested in preaching the gospel and bringing people to Jesus as they are enlightening people with the secret uncovered truths and the ministry of the great sage Witness Lee.

Can someone shed light on the outcome of the work in South America several years ago?

least · 03-02-2017, 10:55 PM

Quote: there is a particularly urgent need at this time. A distribution of hundreds of thousands of Recovery Version Bibles and ministry books across Europe is planned for the week following the International Training for Elders and Responsible Ones (ITERO) in Leipzig, Germany, this October. Living Stream Ministry (LSM) must place an order for these by the end of March. End quote.

BUY! BUY! BUY!

THE burden. Urgent!!! BUUUYYYYY!!!!!

TLFisher · 05-15-2021, 04:21 PM

https://www.lsm.org/pdfs/bibleread-website_en.pdf

April 19, 2021

To all the saints and the churches in the Lord’s recovery:

For a number of years the website The Bible—Recovery Version (https://bibleread.online/bible/ in English; https://biblialeer.online in Spanish; https://bible-ru.ru/ and https://bible-ru.ru/bibliya/ in Russian) has offered unlawful access to most of the ministry publications of Living Stream Ministry and of Bible Book Depot, as well as a corresponding Android application for mobile devices. Many saints use these resources to read the ministry publications, including the Holy Bible Recovery Version and the Life-study messages. Today, we must issue a serious warning regarding this website and its application. The Bible—Recovery Version website was created in Kiev, Ukraine, by Brother Ruslan Skuratov. This website has offered ministry books, hymns, and other materials illegally for many years, all taken from publications copyrighted by BBD or LSM without permission. The BBD brothers responsible for the publication work in the Russian-speaking world have repeatedly tried to fellowship with Skuratov, asking him to respect the copyrights of LSM and BBD and to shut down his website, but every time Skuratov has bluntly rejected that fellowship. He continued to develop his site and at a certain point even began to bring accusations against BBD. Later, LSM in fellowship with the work in the Ukraine and the church in Kiev, repeatedly asked this brother to take down the illegal materials, and each time he refused. Eventually, LSM contacted Skuratov through a Ukrainian law firm, but he still would not comply. In addition to The Bible—Recovery Version website, in 2016 Skuratov created an Android application that delivers the contents of his website. In addition to Skuratov’s violation of copyright law by offering illegally uploaded material, recently he began to refer his readers to materials published by those who oppose the Lord’s recovery. These materials contain spiritual poison that can inflict serious spiritual damage to the saints. In particular, an online version of John Ingalls’ book Speaking the Truth in Love was recently uploaded to this website and conspicuously promoted on its front page. From 1987 to 1989, the late John Ingalls stirred up a serious rebellion in Anaheim, California, against the Lord’s recovery. This rebellion spread and affected a great number of saints and churches. As a result of that rebellion, a number of saints left the Lord’s recovery. Some were so disheartened that they lost their faith in the Lord and in His truth and went into the world. Later he published more books in which he continued to oppose the Lord’s recovery and poison the saints. Now his book is presented freely on The Bible—Recovery Version website side by side with Watchman Nee and Witness Lee’s ministry books. We do not want any of the saints to be poisoned spiritually by this kind of material. Therefore, we urge all the saints not to use The Bible—Recovery Version website, not to install its Android application on their devices, and not to offer or recommend these to others, especially to new ones. If this application is installed to your device, we encourage you to remove it immediately. We should be faithful to be separated to the Lord and not touch death (Num. 19:11, 13-16; Lev. 11:31). By using this website and this application you may unconsciously poison yourselves and poison others. May the Lord preserve us in the oneness of the Spirit for the building up of His Body.

In Him, The brothers who oversee Living Stream Ministry

Timotheist · 05-18-2021, 04:59 PM

Ah, yes. "Fellowship". I remember getting fellowshipped on several occasions.

JorgeP · 06-25-2022, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Letter from The Church In Madrid @ Spain
2009-02-08

8 de febrero del 2009

Queridos santos de las iglesias en Espana:
Translation: Dear Saints of the Churches in Spain:

Como hermanos cargados con la obra y con las iglesias en Espana, tenemos la responsabilidad de alertarles con respecto a una obra divisiva y enganosa que se ha estado llevando a cabo en Espana por los pasados anos. En el 2005, el hermano Fernando Aguera llego a Madrid. A partir de ese tiempo El y otros hermanos que representan la obra del hermano Dong han estado fomentando de manera enErgica las ensenanzas diferentes de Dong Yu Lan en competencia con el ministerio general y la obra en el recobro del Senor. Esta clase de obra se ha llevado a cabo a pesar de peticiones especificas por parte de los hermanos en Madrid a Fernando de que se detuviera y pese a su garantia de que asi lo haria.
Translation: As brothers charged with the work and the churches in Spain, we have a responsibility to alert you to a misleading and divisive work that has been carried out in Spain for the past years. In 2005, a brother Fernando Aguer came to Madrid. From that time he and other brothers who represent the work of Brother Dong have been vigorously promoting the various teachings of Dong Yu Lan in competition with the ministry and the work in the Lord’s recovery. This kind of work has been carried out despite specific requests from the brothers in Madrid for Fernando to stop and despite his guarantee that he would do so.

Los colaboradores del hermano Dong tambiEn han establecido reuniones aparte de la comunion de las iglesias en Espana. Esta obra se ha realizado de una manera oculta y secreta que no corresponde a los hijos de luz (Ef. 5:8) y mucho menos a los siervos del Senor. Los ministros genuinos del ministerio neotestamentario no llevan a cabo el ministerio con astucia sino por la manifestacion de la verdad (2 Co. 4:2; cfr. Ef. 4:14 y las notas de pie de pagina). Les aconsejamos que no sean enganados por las palabras persuasivas de los obreros de Dong Yu Lan (Col. 2:4).
Translation: Brother Dong’s coworkers have also established meetings separate from the fellowship [communion] of the churches in Spain. This work has been performed in a hidden and secret way that does not correspond to the children of light (Ephesians 5:8), much less the servants of the Lord. Genuine ministers of the New Testament ministry do not have a ministry with cunning but by the manifestation of the truth (2 Cor 4:2, cf. Eph. 4:14 and footnotes). We advise you not to be deceived by the persuasive words of the coworkers of Dong Yu Lan (Col. 2:4).

A finales del 2006 recibimos informes desde Barcelona, Cordova, Huelva, Madrid, Malaga, Valencia y Valladolid de que Fernando estaba viajando por toda Espana con dos colaboradores del hermano Dong para fomentar el ministerio y las publicaciones de Dong Yu Lan. En al menos un caso, los obreros de Dong Yu Lan abiertamente se opusieron a la comunion de los colaboradores en cuanto a ser restringidos a una sola obra de publicacion y hablaron en tono de critica acerca de Living Stream Ministry (LSM) y las iglesias en Europa. En cuanto a Fernando, El continuamente criticaba la reunion de oracion y la reunion del ministerio de la iglesia en Madrid. A los hermanos que compartian los mensajes en los videos del ministerio que la iglesia veia, los llamaba 'los rebelados'. Supimos que Fernando y otros colaboradores de Dong Yu Lan estaban intentando por todos los medios de establecer un centro de entrenamiento, de adquirir una furgoneta para distribuir las publicaciones de Dong Yu Lan y de fijar un itinerario de conferencias. Todo esto se hizo sin ninguna comunion con las iglesias y los obreros que han estado guardando con firmeza la unanimidad y laborando en la misma para llevar a cabo el recobro del Senor en Espana.
Translation: In late 2006 we received reports from Barcelona, Cordova, Huelva, Madrid, Malaga, Valencia and Valladolid that Fernando was traveling across Spain with two partners to promote brother Dong’s ministry and publications of Dong Yu Lan. In at least one case, coworkers of Dong Yu Lan openly opposed the fellowship of the coworkers to be restricted to one publication work and spoke in the tone of criticism about Living Stream Ministry (LSM) and the churches in Europe. As for Fernando, he continuously criticized the prayer meeting and the meetings of the ministry of the church in Madrid. The brothers who shared the messages in the videos of the ministry that the church watched, they called ‘the rebels'. We learned that Fernando and other coworkers of Dong Yu Lan were trying by all means to establish a training center, to acquire a van to distribute publications of Dong Yu Lan and setting up a schedule of conferences. All this was done without any fellowship with the churches and the workers who have been keeping a strong one accord and working in the same lead to carry out the recovery of the Lord in Spain.

Cuando los hermanos de Madrid cuestionaron a Fernando el 14 de febrero del 2007 sobre su obra independiente, El afirmo que Salomon Ma-un colaborador del hermano Dong que ha estado muy involucrado en su obra en Europa-habia hablado con Joe Davis respecto a lo que los obreros del hermano Dong estaban realizando en Europa y que Joe Davis lo habia aprobado. Esto no fue asi. De hecho, Joe Davis habia escrito una carta el ano anterior a Salomon y a Joao Antonelli, otro de los obreros del hermano Dong en Europa, en la cual le expresaba su sorpresa y gran preocupacion al saber de las actividades independientes de los obreros del hermano Dong alli. Ademas, en la carta, el hermano Joe Davis expresa su preocupacion por la difusion de las publicaciones del hermano Dong, la cual se estaba realizando sin ninguna comunion con los hermanos que han estado laborando en Europa siguiendo el modelo y direccion del hermano Lee. Cuando los hermanos en Madrid le mencionaron esta carta y su contenido a Fernando, El admitio tener conocimiento de la misma. Entonces, cambio su planteamiento al irrumpir en una letania de criticas virulentas en contra de los colaboradores europeos, LSM, las iglesias en Espana, el hermano Lee y los colaboradores en general.
Translation: When the brothers from Madrid questioned Fernando on February 14, 2007 about his independent work, he said that a colleague of brother Dong, Salomon Ma who has been deeply involved in his work in Europe, had spoken with Joe Davis about what brother Dong's coworkers were doing in Europe and that Joe Davis approved it. It was not [approved]. In fact, Joe Davis had written a letter the previous year to Salomon and Joao Antonelli, another of brother Dong’s coworkers in Europe, in which he expressed his surprise and great concern to learn of the independent activities of brother Dong’s coworkers. In addition, in his letter, brother Joe Davis expressed his concern at the widespread [distribution] of brother Dong's publications, which was being conducted without any fellowship with our brothers who have been working in Europe and following the model of brother Lee. When the brothers in Madrid mentioned this letter and its contents to Fernando, he admitted having knowledge of it. Then, he changed his approach, breaking into a litany of virulent criticisms against the European coworkers, LSM, the churches in Spain, Brother Lee and his coworkers in general.

DespuEs de este incidente, Fernando se mudo a Barcelona en donde continuo obrando de manera divisiva. El comenzo una supuesta reunion de la 'mesa' alli aparte de la de los santos quienes para febrero del 2007 se habian estado reuniendo ya por diez anos. El l8 de junio del 2007, tres colaboradores- Sherman Robertson, Victor Molina y Paul Hon- visitaron a Fernando y le advirtieron acerca de tener una reunion de la mesa ilegitima sin tener en cuenta a los santos. Una vez mas Fernando afirmo falsamente que Joe Davis sabia y aprobaba su obra, pese a que esta afirmacion habia sido contradicha en Madrid. La 'mesa' de la obra del hermano Dong continua por separado de la iglesia en Barcelona. El hijo del hermano Dong, Andre, otro de sus mas antiguos obreros, participo en esa reunion divisiva en Barcelona y dio una conferencia alli en abril del 2008.
Translation: After this incident, Fernando moved to Barcelona where he continued to work so divisively. They began a so-called 'table meeting' there apart from the saints who, in February 2007, had been meeting for ten years. On l8 June 2007, three coworkers--Sherman Robertson, Paul Victor Molina and Paul Hon--visited Fernando and warned him about having an illegitimate meeting without regard to the saints. Fernando once again falsely stated that Joe Davis knew and approved of his work, despite the fact that this statement had been contradicted in Madrid. The 'table' of brother Dong’s work continued separately from the church in Barcelona. Brother Dong's son, Andre, one of their older workers participated in this divisive meeting in Barcelona and gave a conference there in April 2008.

Mientras estaba en Barcelona, Fernando continuo la obra del hermano Dong en Madrid sin la comunion de los hermanos alli ni el conocimiento de ellos al respecto. Se nos ha informado que ha establecido, aunque lo ha negado, una segunda reunion de la 'mesa' en competencia con la que ya existia en Madrid. Un hecho indiscutible es que ha presionado a los santos para que abandonen las iglesias en Espana y asistan a las reuniones que El establece por separado. A fin de ganar la simpatia de los santos, les ha dicho que El fue 'expulsado' de la iglesia en Madrid: una acusacion falsa.
Translation: While Fernando was in Barcelona, continuing the work of brother Dong, he was not in fellowship with the brethren in Madrid, nor acknowledged them in this regard. We have been informed that there has been established, (although it has denied) a second 'table meeting' in competition with that already existing in Madrid. One indisputable fact is that they have pushed the saints to leave churches in Spain and to attend these meetings in separation. To gain the sympathy of the saints, they said that he was ' expelled ' from the church in Madrid: a false accusation.

La obra del hermano Dong ha enviado equipos de obreros a viajar por toda Espana con el fin de ayudar a Fernando a propagar la literatura del hermano Dong y comenzar 'iglesias' con reuniones de la 'mesa'. De igual manera, esta obra se ha llevado a cabo independientemente de las iglesias y los santos en Espana, y de los colaboradores en Europa.
Translation: The work of brother Dong has sent teams of workers under Fernando to travel throughout Spain with the aim of helping to spread the literature of brother Dong and start 'churches' with ‘table meetings.’ Similarly, this work has been carried out independently of the churches and saints in Spain, and the coworkers in Europe.

Queridos santos, debemos estar claros que son divisivas tanto dicha obra privada y secreta como la comunion cerrada que Esta produce. Esto es asi aunque los obreros implicados afirmen que las iglesias que establecen estan en el terreno de la localidad. El terreno de la localidad no es una excusa para la division, sino que es el terreno de la unidad. La iglesia local es la manifestacion local del unico Cuerpo de Cristo universal. El testimonio de la iglesia local es que ella recibe a todos los creyentes y tiene comunion con todas las otras iglesias locales genuinas en la comunion unica del Cuerpo de Cristo (1 Co. 1:9). La practica del hermano Dong consiste en comenzar a partir el pan en una localidad con tan solo un punado de creyentes-a veces tan solo dos-a manera de 'plantar una bandera', con el fin de reclamar esa localidad como territorio de su obra privada. Esta practica no es conforme a la verdad. Aquellos que afirman ser una iglesia y, sin embargo, se mantienen separados de la comunion comun, estan autoenganandose al pensar que son una iglesia local genuina. De hecho, son una secta local.
Translation: Dear saints, we must be clear that such works are as divisive as the private and secret closed fellowship that is taking place. This is so even though the workers involved claim that the churches are established on the ground of locality. The ground of the church is no excuse for the division, but is the ground of unity. The local church is the local manifestation of the one Body of Christ universally. The testimony of the local church is that it receives to all believers and fellowships with all other local churches as the only genuine communion of the Body of Christ (1 Cor 1:9). The practice of brother Dong consists of starting the bread in a locality with only a handful of believers, sometimes just two--as a way 'to plant a flag" in order to claim the town/city as a territory of his private work. This practice is inconsistent with the truth. Those who claim to be a church, but are kept separate from the common fellowship, are led to think they are a genuine local church. But, in fact, it is a local cult.

Una iglesia local es una que esta abierta a todos los santos en esa localidad y esta abierta a todas las iglesias locales. Si existe una supuesta iglesia local que no tiene comunion con las otras iglesias locales, Esta no es una iglesia local, sino una repeticion de la historia del cristianismo degradado. Al rehusar tener comunion, esta supuesta iglesia local llega a ser una secta local. (Witness Lee, The Wonderful Christ in the Canon of the New Testament, pgs. 175-176)
Translation: “A local church is one that is open to all the saints in this locality and is open to all local churches. If there is an alleged local church which has no communion with other local churches, this is not a local church, but a repetition of the history of degraded Christianity. By refusing to take communion, this alleged local church becomes a local cult.” (Witness Lee, The Wonderful Christ in the Canon of the New Testament, pgs. 175-176)

El pan en la mesa del Senor es un simbolo. Este representa la comunion en el cuerpo fisico y mistico del Cuerpo de Cristo (1 Co. 10:16). Esto indica que participamos en la comunion unica que es comun a todos los hijos de Senor, por la cual el Senor se ha dado a Si mismo a todos Sus creyentes como su vida y su todo mediante Su muerte expiatoria y nos ha constituido en el unico Cuerpo organico con El mismo como la cabeza. Aquellos que partan un pan que no represente esta comunion comun a todos, practican el sectarismo sin importar como se autodenominen. Por esta causa Pablo nos encomendo a discernir el cuerpo del Senor (1 Co. 11:29).
Translation: The bread on the table of the Lord is a symbol. This is the communion in the body physical and mystical Body of Christ (1 Cor 10:16). This indicates that we only participate in the communion that is common to all children of God, by which the Lord has given Himself to all believers and all their life and through His atoning death and has become the only body, the same as the head. Those who participate in a bread that represents a fellowship that is not common to all, practice sectarianism. For this reason Paul gave us to discern the body of the Lord (1 Cor 11:29).

La primera cosa que debemos discernir es el pan en la mesa del Senor. El pan en la mesa del Senor debe ser un simbolo no solamente del cuerpo fisico del Senor, sino tambiEn del Cuerpo mistico del Senor, el cual es universalmente uno (Ef. 4:4). Aunque tomemos la mesa del Senor en diferentes ciudades alrededor del mundo, todos estamos tomando de un solo pan, porque el pan del cual participamos es un simbolo del Cuerpo mistico de Cristo, el cual es universalmente uno. Asi que, 1 Corintios 10:17 dice: 'Siendo uno solo el pan, nosotros, con ser muchos, somos un cuerpo; pues todos participamos de aquel mismo pan.' Cualquier pan en la mesa el Senor que no represente al Cuerpo universal del Senor sino al cuerpo de cierta secta, es divisivo. (Witness Lee, Una presentacion breve de lo que es el recobro del Senor, pag. 57)
Translation: The first thing we need to discern is the bread on the table of the Lord. The bread on the table of the Lord should be a symbol not only of the physical body of the Lord, but also of the Mystical Body of the Lord, which is universal (Eph. 4:4). Although we take the Lord's Table in different cities around the world, we are taking only one bread, because the bread part of which is a symbol of the Mystical Body of Christ, which is a universally. So, 1 Corinthians 10:17 says: 'Being one bread, we, being many, are one body: for all partake of the same bread. " Any bread on the table of the Lord that does not represent the universal Body of the Lord, but the body of a certain sect, is divisive. (Witness Lee, a Brief Presentation of the Lord’s Recovery, pp. 57)

Es importante que los santos entiendan que los problemas que han ocasionado el hermano Dong y sus colaboradores y el modo en el que han obrado no son meramente deficiencias personales. Por el contrario, caracteriza la manera en que el hermano Dong y sus colaboradores se han comportado no solo en Espana y Europa, sino tambiEn en muchos otros lugares de la tierra. El hermano Dong ha infundido en sus colaboradores la vision de que todas las iglesias fuera de su obra personal se han degradado hasta convertirse en Laodicea; que solo las iglesias levantadas por su obra son Filadelfia y que como tales deben mantenerse separados de los que ellos consideran Laodicea.
Translation: It is important that the saints understand the problems that have been caused by brother Dong and his colleagues and how they have acted are not merely personal shortcomings. On the contrary, this characterizes how brother Dong and his colleagues have behaved, not only in Spain and Europe, but also in many other places on earth. Brother Dong has instilled in his coworkers a vision that all the churches outside of his work have degraded into Laodicea, that only the churches that were raised up by his work are Philadelphia and as such should be kept separate from those [churches] they consider Laodicea.

El hermano Dong ha creado un mito ingenioso para vindicar su obra independiente. El divide los escritos del Nuevo Testamento en tres grupos, a saber el ministerio 'tradicional' de los doce apostoles, el ministerio 'judicial' (el cual define como legal o doctrinal) del apostol Pablo y el ministerio 'organico' de Juan. Luego, alega que Dios estaba insatisfecho y que por lo tanto puso fin tanto al ministerio de los doce apostoles como al de Pablo. Segun el hermano Dong, Dios solo se complacia con el ministerio de Juan.
Translation: Brother Dong has created an ingenious myth to vindicate his independent work. He divides the writings of the New Testament into three groups, namely the 'traditional' ministry of the Twelve Apostles, the ‘judicial’ ministry (which he defines as legal or doctrinal) of the apostle Paul and the 'organic' ministry of John. Then, he claims that God was not satisfied with both the ministry of the Twelve Apostles or of Paul and thus put an end to them. According to brother Dong, God is only pleased with the ministry of John.

El hermano Dong entonces emplea este mito para exaltar su ministerio y obra por encima de todos los demas. El le da crEdito al hermano Nee por haber sacado la verdad de la esfera 'tradicional' del cristianismo, sin embargo, luego devalua el ministerio del hermano Nee y el hermano Lee al catalogarlo como 'judicial'. Por otra parte, alega que su ministerio es la continuacion unica del ministerio 'organico' de Juan. Segun este mito, solo el ministerio del hermano Dong y lo que Este produce, continuara hasta que el Senor regrese. Este es el sistema de error (Ef. 4:14) que se utiliza para justificar la total indiferencia del hermano Dong y sus colaboradores hacia otros colaboradores e iglesias.
Translation: Brother Dong then used this myth to exalt his ministry and work above all others. He gives credit to brother Nee who brought matters of the truth to 'traditional' Christianity. However, he devalues the ministry of Brother Nee and Brother Lee, which he categorizes as 'judicial '. On the other hand, he claims that his ministry continues the ‘organic’ ministry of John. According to this myth, only the ministry of brother Dong and what it produces will continue until the Lord returns. This is the system of error (Eph. 4:14) which is used to justify the utter indifference of brother Dong and his colleagues to other coworkers and churches.

Por lo tanto, encomendamos a los santos de las iglesias en Espana a no recibir a los colaboradores del hermano Dong o las publicaciones y ensenanzas diferentes que ellos fomentan (Ro. 16:17; 1 Ti. 1:3-4). La division y confusion han sido constantemente sus frutos manifiestos, no tan solo en Espana sino en otras partes de la tierra a donde han ido. Comprendemos que muchos santos han sido enganados por los colaboradores del hermano Dong inocentemente y que muchos todavia pudieran tener el deseo genuino de participar en el mover actual del Senor en Su recobro. Invitamos a estos santos a tener comunion con nosotros para que vayamos adelante juntos con miras a los intereses del Senor. Sin embargo, pedimos a los santos entre nosotros que hayan sido visitados o sido el objeto del contacto de alguna persona asociada a la obra del hermano Dong, que traigan esto a la atencion de los hermanos que toman la delantera en su localidad.
Translation: Therefore, we recommend the saints of the churches in Spain not receive coworkers of brother Dong, his various publications and teachings that promote them (Rom. 16:17, 1 Ti. 1:3-4). The division and confusion caused have been consistently manifested, not only in Spain, but also in other parts of the earth where they went. We understand that many innocent saints have been deceived by brother Dong’s coworkers and that many still may have a genuine desire to participate in the current move of the Lord in His recovery. We call these saints have fellowship with us to move forward together for the Lord’s interests. However, we ask the saints among us who have been visited or been the subject of contact by persons associated with the work of brother Dong, to bring this to the attention of the brothers taking the lead in your area.

La advertencia en esta carta es necesaria para proteger a todas las iglesias en Espana, guardandolas en las sanas palabras de la ensenanza de los apostoles (1 Ti. 6:3; Tit. 1:9; Hch. 2:42). Deseamos cooperar con el Senor para preservar lo que El ha logrado en las iglesias en Espana a fin de que las iglesias puedan ir adelante en unidad junto con todas las iglesias en Europa (Hch. 2:46; Ro. 15:6). Les pedimos que oren y estEn alertas con este fin.
Translation: The warning in this letter is necessary to protect all churches in Spain, according to the words of the sound [healthy] teaching of the Apostles (1 Ti. 6:3; Tit. 1:9; Acts. 2:42). We wish to cooperate with the Lord to preserve what He has accomplished in the churches in Spain so that the churches can go forward in unity with all the churches in Europe (Acts 2:46, Rom. 15:6). We ask you to pray and be alert to this effect.

David Martinez (Madrid) Jorge Cruz (Madrid) Cristobal Linero (Malaga)
Diego Diaz (Malaga) Nicolas Morales (Cordoba) Manuel de la Rica (Cordoba)
Joe Davis Bill Lewallen Hector Aponte
Oscar Cordero Jameson Chen Russell Cox

It is impressive how a Christian group becomes so elitist, hierarchical, religious, divided, sectarian, proud and haughty. And the worst of the case is that what they have belittled, rejected, criticized they have become much worse. What has hurt the most in this system is the hierarchical structure that this movement has. There is no other Christian restoration movement that is as harmful, controlling of its members and divisive as this one. How harmful and disastrous a Christian movement that claims to be the only ministry that builds up the ekklesia. What an arrogant and haughty statement! After leaving this Christian movement, I have been visiting many Christian congregations in Madrid and truly the local ekklesia has been around long before this Christian movement came to this city and nation. In addition to my research work and the quite negative experiences that I had with this Christian group, honestly, there were very, very few good experiences that I had, I have been able to verify that it is truly a mercy of the Lord the opportunity to escape from this type of system and be free to move on to experience the ekklesia of the Lord. I am very grateful to the Lord for giving me the necessary discernment to be able to see beyond and see things clearly as far as I have been able to see regarding this Christian group. Due to new experiences that have made me mature a little more, even despite the mess of the system in which they are enslaved, I am still open to having a conversation, even communion, despite the fact that they want to impose their concept of communion referring to the ministerial materials of this Christian movement, I am willing to have fellowship with any of this Christian group but outside of that damaged system. How good it is to be able to see the vision of the Lord's ekklesia, that we have been called to have fellowship with any believer, from any ministerial background through homes, public places.

PriestlyScribe · 01-11-2024, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JorgeP

It is impressive how a Christian group becomes so elitist, hierarchical, religious, divided, sectarian, proud and haughty. And the worst of the case is that what they have belittled, rejected, criticized they have become much worse....In addition to my research work and the quite negative experiences that I had with this Christian group, honestly, there were very, very few good experiences that I had, I have been able to verify that it is truly a mercy of the Lord the opportunity to escape from this type of system and be free to move on to experience the ekklesia of the Lord. I am very grateful to the Lord for giving me the necessary discernment to be able to see beyond and see things clearly as far as I have been able to see regarding this Christian group.

JorgeP - Congratulations on your excellent escape from a very badly behaving religious dictatorship! Your description nailed it quite well.

Depending upon the depth of your research, it's easy to overlook the true root source of this group's pride - the extremely flawed characters of both Watchman Nee & Witness Lee.
Turns out that they were like two peas in the same pod of duplicity, deceit and tyranny.

To learn about the carefully hidden misdeeds of Watchman Nee, the 2013 book by Lily Hsu - My Unforgettable Memories: Watchman Nee and Shanghai Local Church could prove invaluable.

A bootleg electronic version of that book has been circulating elsewhere on other forums, however MUCH of the book's damning content was left out of that copy. I highly recommend buying the Kindle or Print version so you can get the full picture.

Link to it on Amazon here.

To understand more about the "behind the scenes" corrupt behavior of Witness Lee specifically, I would recommend you read John Ingalls book - Speaking The Truth In Love (1990). Long out of print, it's "re-typed by hand" content is available elsewhere on this forum, however a very rough Spanish translation of it is in the works at this link.

Then there is also my own personal endeavor to offer that book in electronic (and audio) format here. If you would be willing to help improve the Spanish version of John Ingalls' book please pm me.

Wishing you the best in your journey...

P.S.

12-18-2008, 04:04 PM	#10
Former LC member Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 40	Situation in UK Does anyone here know how the churches in the UK are doing? Are there any there who are meeting in genuine oneness apart from the LSM?

02-14-2009, 11:30 AM	#14
UntoHim ἐμοὶ γὰρ τὸ ζῆν Χριστὸς - - For To Me To Live Is Christ! Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 3,791	Letter from the The Church in Madrid Spain (re: Dong's ministry) Letter from The Church In Madrid @ Spain 2009-02-08 8 de febrero del 2009 Queridos santos de las iglesias en Espana: Translation: Dear Saints of the Churches in Spain: Como hermanos cargados con la obra y con las iglesias en Espana, tenemos la responsabilidad de alertarles con respecto a una obra divisiva y enganosa que se ha estado llevando a cabo en Espana por los pasados anos. En el 2005, el hermano Fernando Aguera llego a Madrid. A partir de ese tiempo El y otros hermanos que representan la obra del hermano Dong han estado fomentando de manera enErgica las ensenanzas diferentes de Dong Yu Lan en competencia con el ministerio general y la obra en el recobro del Senor. Esta clase de obra se ha llevado a cabo a pesar de peticiones especificas por parte de los hermanos en Madrid a Fernando de que se detuviera y pese a su garantia de que asi lo haria. Translation: As brothers charged with the work and the churches in Spain, we have a responsibility to alert you to a misleading and divisive work that has been carried out in Spain for the past years. In 2005, a brother Fernando Aguer came to Madrid. From that time he and other brothers who represent the work of Brother Dong have been vigorously promoting the various teachings of Dong Yu Lan in competition with the ministry and the work in the Lord’s recovery. This kind of work has been carried out despite specific requests from the brothers in Madrid for Fernando to stop and despite his guarantee that he would do so. Los colaboradores del hermano Dong tambiEn han establecido reuniones aparte de la comunion de las iglesias en Espana. Esta obra se ha realizado de una manera oculta y secreta que no corresponde a los hijos de luz (Ef. 5:8) y mucho menos a los siervos del Senor. Los ministros genuinos del ministerio neotestamentario no llevan a cabo el ministerio con astucia sino por la manifestacion de la verdad (2 Co. 4:2; cfr. Ef. 4:14 y las notas de pie de pagina). Les aconsejamos que no sean enganados por las palabras persuasivas de los obreros de Dong Yu Lan (Col. 2:4). Translation: Brother Dong’s coworkers have also established meetings separate from the fellowship [communion] of the churches in Spain. This work has been performed in a hidden and secret way that does not correspond to the children of light (Ephesians 5:8), much less the servants of the Lord. Genuine ministers of the New Testament ministry do not have a ministry with cunning but by the manifestation of the truth (2 Cor 4:2, cf. Eph. 4:14 and footnotes). We advise you not to be deceived by the persuasive words of the coworkers of Dong Yu Lan (Col. 2:4). A finales del 2006 recibimos informes desde Barcelona, Cordova, Huelva, Madrid, Malaga, Valencia y Valladolid de que Fernando estaba viajando por toda Espana con dos colaboradores del hermano Dong para fomentar el ministerio y las publicaciones de Dong Yu Lan. En al menos un caso, los obreros de Dong Yu Lan abiertamente se opusieron a la comunion de los colaboradores en cuanto a ser restringidos a una sola obra de publicacion y hablaron en tono de critica acerca de Living Stream Ministry (LSM) y las iglesias en Europa. En cuanto a Fernando, El continuamente criticaba la reunion de oracion y la reunion del ministerio de la iglesia en Madrid. A los hermanos que compartian los mensajes en los videos del ministerio que la iglesia veia, los llamaba 'los rebelados'. Supimos que Fernando y otros colaboradores de Dong Yu Lan estaban intentando por todos los medios de establecer un centro de entrenamiento, de adquirir una furgoneta para distribuir las publicaciones de Dong Yu Lan y de fijar un itinerario de conferencias. Todo esto se hizo sin ninguna comunion con las iglesias y los obreros que han estado guardando con firmeza la unanimidad y laborando en la misma para llevar a cabo el recobro del Senor en Espana. Translation: In late 2006 we received reports from Barcelona, Cordova, Huelva, Madrid, Malaga, Valencia and Valladolid that Fernando was traveling across Spain with two partners to promote brother Dong’s ministry and publications of Dong Yu Lan. In at least one case, coworkers of Dong Yu Lan openly opposed the fellowship of the coworkers to be restricted to one publication work and spoke in the tone of criticism about Living Stream Ministry (LSM) and the churches in Europe. As for Fernando, he continuously criticized the prayer meeting and the meetings of the ministry of the church in Madrid. The brothers who shared the messages in the videos of the ministry that the church watched, they called ‘the rebels'. We learned that Fernando and other coworkers of Dong Yu Lan were trying by all means to establish a training center, to acquire a van to distribute publications of Dong Yu Lan and setting up a schedule of conferences. All this was done without any fellowship with the churches and the workers who have been keeping a strong one accord and working in the same lead to carry out the recovery of the Lord in Spain. Cuando los hermanos de Madrid cuestionaron a Fernando el 14 de febrero del 2007 sobre su obra independiente, El afirmo que Salomon Ma-un colaborador del hermano Dong que ha estado muy involucrado en su obra en Europa-habia hablado con Joe Davis respecto a lo que los obreros del hermano Dong estaban realizando en Europa y que Joe Davis lo habia aprobado. Esto no fue asi. De hecho, Joe Davis habia escrito una carta el ano anterior a Salomon y a Joao Antonelli, otro de los obreros del hermano Dong en Europa, en la cual le expresaba su sorpresa y gran preocupacion al saber de las actividades independientes de los obreros del hermano Dong alli. Ademas, en la carta, el hermano Joe Davis expresa su preocupacion por la difusion de las publicaciones del hermano Dong, la cual se estaba realizando sin ninguna comunion con los hermanos que han estado laborando en Europa siguiendo el modelo y direccion del hermano Lee. Cuando los hermanos en Madrid le mencionaron esta carta y su contenido a Fernando, El admitio tener conocimiento de la misma. Entonces, cambio su planteamiento al irrumpir en una letania de criticas virulentas en contra de los colaboradores europeos, LSM, las iglesias en Espana, el hermano Lee y los colaboradores en general. Translation: When the brothers from Madrid questioned Fernando on February 14, 2007 about his independent work, he said that a colleague of brother Dong, Salomon Ma who has been deeply involved in his work in Europe, had spoken with Joe Davis about what brother Dong's coworkers were doing in Europe and that Joe Davis approved it. It was not [approved]. In fact, Joe Davis had written a letter the previous year to Salomon and Joao Antonelli, another of brother Dong’s coworkers in Europe, in which he expressed his surprise and great concern to learn of the independent activities of brother Dong’s coworkers. In addition, in his letter, brother Joe Davis expressed his concern at the widespread [distribution] of brother Dong's publications, which was being conducted without any fellowship with our brothers who have been working in Europe and following the model of brother Lee. When the brothers in Madrid mentioned this letter and its contents to Fernando, he admitted having knowledge of it. Then, he changed his approach, breaking into a litany of virulent criticisms against the European coworkers, LSM, the churches in Spain, Brother Lee and his coworkers in general. DespuEs de este incidente, Fernando se mudo a Barcelona en donde continuo obrando de manera divisiva. El comenzo una supuesta reunion de la 'mesa' alli aparte de la de los santos quienes para febrero del 2007 se habian estado reuniendo ya por diez anos. El l8 de junio del 2007, tres colaboradores- Sherman Robertson, Victor Molina y Paul Hon- visitaron a Fernando y le advirtieron acerca de tener una reunion de la mesa ilegitima sin tener en cuenta a los santos. Una vez mas Fernando afirmo falsamente que Joe Davis sabia y aprobaba su obra, pese a que esta afirmacion habia sido contradicha en Madrid. La 'mesa' de la obra del hermano Dong continua por separado de la iglesia en Barcelona. El hijo del hermano Dong, Andre, otro de sus mas antiguos obreros, participo en esa reunion divisiva en Barcelona y dio una conferencia alli en abril del 2008. Translation: After this incident, Fernando moved to Barcelona where he continued to work so divisively. They began a so-called 'table meeting' there apart from the saints who, in February 2007, had been meeting for ten years. On l8 June 2007, three coworkers--Sherman Robertson, Paul Victor Molina and Paul Hon--visited Fernando and warned him about having an illegitimate meeting without regard to the saints. Fernando once again falsely stated that Joe Davis knew and approved of his work, despite the fact that this statement had been contradicted in Madrid. The 'table' of brother Dong’s work continued separately from the church in Barcelona. Brother Dong's son, Andre, one of their older workers participated in this divisive meeting in Barcelona and gave a conference there in April 2008. Mientras estaba en Barcelona, Fernando continuo la obra del hermano Dong en Madrid sin la comunion de los hermanos alli ni el conocimiento de ellos al respecto. Se nos ha informado que ha establecido, aunque lo ha negado, una segunda reunion de la 'mesa' en competencia con la que ya existia en Madrid. Un hecho indiscutible es que ha presionado a los santos para que abandonen las iglesias en Espana y asistan a las reuniones que El establece por separado. A fin de ganar la simpatia de los santos, les ha dicho que El fue 'expulsado' de la iglesia en Madrid: una acusacion falsa. Translation: While Fernando was in Barcelona, continuing the work of brother Dong, he was not in fellowship with the brethren in Madrid, nor acknowledged them in this regard. We have been informed that there has been established, (although it has denied) a second 'table meeting' in competition with that already existing in Madrid. One indisputable fact is that they have pushed the saints to leave churches in Spain and to attend these meetings in separation. To gain the sympathy of the saints, they said that he was ' expelled ' from the church in Madrid: a false accusation. La obra del hermano Dong ha enviado equipos de obreros a viajar por toda Espana con el fin de ayudar a Fernando a propagar la literatura del hermano Dong y comenzar 'iglesias' con reuniones de la 'mesa'. De igual manera, esta obra se ha llevado a cabo independientemente de las iglesias y los santos en Espana, y de los colaboradores en Europa. Translation: The work of brother Dong has sent teams of workers under Fernando to travel throughout Spain with the aim of helping to spread the literature of brother Dong and start 'churches' with ‘table meetings.’ Similarly, this work has been carried out independently of the churches and saints in Spain, and the coworkers in Europe. Queridos santos, debemos estar claros que son divisivas tanto dicha obra privada y secreta como la comunion cerrada que Esta produce. Esto es asi aunque los obreros implicados afirmen que las iglesias que establecen estan en el terreno de la localidad. El terreno de la localidad no es una excusa para la division, sino que es el terreno de la unidad. La iglesia local es la manifestacion local del unico Cuerpo de Cristo universal. El testimonio de la iglesia local es que ella recibe a todos los creyentes y tiene comunion con todas las otras iglesias locales genuinas en la comunion unica del Cuerpo de Cristo (1 Co. 1:9). La practica del hermano Dong consiste en comenzar a partir el pan en una localidad con tan solo un punado de creyentes-a veces tan solo dos-a manera de 'plantar una bandera', con el fin de reclamar esa localidad como territorio de su obra privada. Esta practica no es conforme a la verdad. Aquellos que afirman ser una iglesia y, sin embargo, se mantienen separados de la comunion comun, estan autoenganandose al pensar que son una iglesia local genuina. De hecho, son una secta local. Translation: Dear saints, we must be clear that such works are as divisive as the private and secret closed fellowship that is taking place. This is so even though the workers involved claim that the churches are established on the ground of locality. The ground of the church is no excuse for the division, but is the ground of unity. The local church is the local manifestation of the one Body of Christ universally. The testimony of the local church is that it receives to all believers and fellowships with all other local churches as the only genuine communion of the Body of Christ (1 Cor 1:9). The practice of brother Dong consists of starting the bread in a locality with only a handful of believers, sometimes just two--as a way 'to plant a flag" in order to claim the town/city as a territory of his private work. This practice is inconsistent with the truth. Those who claim to be a church, but are kept separate from the common fellowship, are led to think they are a genuine local church. But, in fact, it is a local cult. Una iglesia local es una que esta abierta a todos los santos en esa localidad y esta abierta a todas las iglesias locales. Si existe una supuesta iglesia local que no tiene comunion con las otras iglesias locales, Esta no es una iglesia local, sino una repeticion de la historia del cristianismo degradado. Al rehusar tener comunion, esta supuesta iglesia local llega a ser una secta local. (Witness Lee, The Wonderful Christ in the Canon of the New Testament, pgs. 175-176) Translation: “A local church is one that is open to all the saints in this locality and is open to all local churches. If there is an alleged local church which has no communion with other local churches, this is not a local church, but a repetition of the history of degraded Christianity. By refusing to take communion, this alleged local church becomes a local cult.” (Witness Lee, The Wonderful Christ in the Canon of the New Testament, pgs. 175-176) El pan en la mesa del Senor es un simbolo. Este representa la comunion en el cuerpo fisico y mistico del Cuerpo de Cristo (1 Co. 10:16). Esto indica que participamos en la comunion unica que es comun a todos los hijos de Senor, por la cual el Senor se ha dado a Si mismo a todos Sus creyentes como su vida y su todo mediante Su muerte expiatoria y nos ha constituido en el unico Cuerpo organico con El mismo como la cabeza. Aquellos que partan un pan que no represente esta comunion comun a todos, practican el sectarismo sin importar como se autodenominen. Por esta causa Pablo nos encomendo a discernir el cuerpo del Senor (1 Co. 11:29). Translation: The bread on the table of the Lord is a symbol. This is the communion in the body physical and mystical Body of Christ (1 Cor 10:16). This indicates that we only participate in the communion that is common to all children of God, by which the Lord has given Himself to all believers and all their life and through His atoning death and has become the only body, the same as the head. Those who participate in a bread that represents a fellowship that is not common to all, practice sectarianism. For this reason Paul gave us to discern the body of the Lord (1 Cor 11:29). La primera cosa que debemos discernir es el pan en la mesa del Senor. El pan en la mesa del Senor debe ser un simbolo no solamente del cuerpo fisico del Senor, sino tambiEn del Cuerpo mistico del Senor, el cual es universalmente uno (Ef. 4:4). Aunque tomemos la mesa del Senor en diferentes ciudades alrededor del mundo, todos estamos tomando de un solo pan, porque el pan del cual participamos es un simbolo del Cuerpo mistico de Cristo, el cual es universalmente uno. Asi que, 1 Corintios 10:17 dice: 'Siendo uno solo el pan, nosotros, con ser muchos, somos un cuerpo; pues todos participamos de aquel mismo pan.' Cualquier pan en la mesa el Senor que no represente al Cuerpo universal del Senor sino al cuerpo de cierta secta, es divisivo. (Witness Lee, Una presentacion breve de lo que es el recobro del Senor, pag. 57) Translation: The first thing we need to discern is the bread on the table of the Lord. The bread on the table of the Lord should be a symbol not only of the physical body of the Lord, but also of the Mystical Body of the Lord, which is universal (Eph. 4:4). Although we take the Lord's Table in different cities around the world, we are taking only one bread, because the bread part of which is a symbol of the Mystical Body of Christ, which is a universally. So, 1 Corinthians 10:17 says: 'Being one bread, we, being many, are one body: for all partake of the same bread. " Any bread on the table of the Lord that does not represent the universal Body of the Lord, but the body of a certain sect, is divisive. (Witness Lee, a Brief Presentation of the Lord’s Recovery, pp. 57) Es importante que los santos entiendan que los problemas que han ocasionado el hermano Dong y sus colaboradores y el modo en el que han obrado no son meramente deficiencias personales. Por el contrario, caracteriza la manera en que el hermano Dong y sus colaboradores se han comportado no solo en Espana y Europa, sino tambiEn en muchos otros lugares de la tierra. El hermano Dong ha infundido en sus colaboradores la vision de que todas las iglesias fuera de su obra personal se han degradado hasta convertirse en Laodicea; que solo las iglesias levantadas por su obra son Filadelfia y que como tales deben mantenerse separados de los que ellos consideran Laodicea. Translation: It is important that the saints understand the problems that have been caused by brother Dong and his colleagues and how they have acted are not merely personal shortcomings. On the contrary, this characterizes how brother Dong and his colleagues have behaved, not only in Spain and Europe, but also in many other places on earth. Brother Dong has instilled in his coworkers a vision that all the churches outside of his work have degraded into Laodicea, that only the churches that were raised up by his work are Philadelphia and as such should be kept separate from those [churches] they consider Laodicea. El hermano Dong ha creado un mito ingenioso para vindicar su obra independiente. El divide los escritos del Nuevo Testamento en tres grupos, a saber el ministerio 'tradicional' de los doce apostoles, el ministerio 'judicial' (el cual define como legal o doctrinal) del apostol Pablo y el ministerio 'organico' de Juan. Luego, alega que Dios estaba insatisfecho y que por lo tanto puso fin tanto al ministerio de los doce apostoles como al de Pablo. Segun el hermano Dong, Dios solo se complacia con el ministerio de Juan. Translation: Brother Dong has created an ingenious myth to vindicate his independent work. He divides the writings of the New Testament into three groups, namely the 'traditional' ministry of the Twelve Apostles, the ‘judicial’ ministry (which he defines as legal or doctrinal) of the apostle Paul and the 'organic' ministry of John. Then, he claims that God was not satisfied with both the ministry of the Twelve Apostles or of Paul and thus put an end to them. According to brother Dong, God is only pleased with the ministry of John. El hermano Dong entonces emplea este mito para exaltar su ministerio y obra por encima de todos los demas. El le da crEdito al hermano Nee por haber sacado la verdad de la esfera 'tradicional' del cristianismo, sin embargo, luego devalua el ministerio del hermano Nee y el hermano Lee al catalogarlo como 'judicial'. Por otra parte, alega que su ministerio es la continuacion unica del ministerio 'organico' de Juan. Segun este mito, solo el ministerio del hermano Dong y lo que Este produce, continuara hasta que el Senor regrese. Este es el sistema de error (Ef. 4:14) que se utiliza para justificar la total indiferencia del hermano Dong y sus colaboradores hacia otros colaboradores e iglesias. Translation: Brother Dong then used this myth to exalt his ministry and work above all others. He gives credit to brother Nee who brought matters of the truth to 'traditional' Christianity. However, he devalues the ministry of Brother Nee and Brother Lee, which he categorizes as 'judicial '. On the other hand, he claims that his ministry continues the ‘organic’ ministry of John. According to this myth, only the ministry of brother Dong and what it produces will continue until the Lord returns. This is the system of error (Eph. 4:14) which is used to justify the utter indifference of brother Dong and his colleagues to other coworkers and churches. Por lo tanto, encomendamos a los santos de las iglesias en Espana a no recibir a los colaboradores del hermano Dong o las publicaciones y ensenanzas diferentes que ellos fomentan (Ro. 16:17; 1 Ti. 1:3-4). La division y confusion han sido constantemente sus frutos manifiestos, no tan solo en Espana sino en otras partes de la tierra a donde han ido. Comprendemos que muchos santos han sido enganados por los colaboradores del hermano Dong inocentemente y que muchos todavia pudieran tener el deseo genuino de participar en el mover actual del Senor en Su recobro. Invitamos a estos santos a tener comunion con nosotros para que vayamos adelante juntos con miras a los intereses del Senor. Sin embargo, pedimos a los santos entre nosotros que hayan sido visitados o sido el objeto del contacto de alguna persona asociada a la obra del hermano Dong, que traigan esto a la atencion de los hermanos que toman la delantera en su localidad. Translation: Therefore, we recommend the saints of the churches in Spain not receive coworkers of brother Dong, his various publications and teachings that promote them (Rom. 16:17, 1 Ti. 1:3-4). The division and confusion caused have been consistently manifested, not only in Spain, but also in other parts of the earth where they went. We understand that many innocent saints have been deceived by brother Dong’s coworkers and that many still may have a genuine desire to participate in the current move of the Lord in His recovery. We call these saints have fellowship with us to move forward together for the Lord’s interests. However, we ask the saints among us who have been visited or been the subject of contact by persons associated with the work of brother Dong, to bring this to the attention of the brothers taking the lead in your area. La advertencia en esta carta es necesaria para proteger a todas las iglesias en Espana, guardandolas en las sanas palabras de la ensenanza de los apostoles (1 Ti. 6:3; Tit. 1:9; Hch. 2:42). Deseamos cooperar con el Senor para preservar lo que El ha logrado en las iglesias en Espana a fin de que las iglesias puedan ir adelante en unidad junto con todas las iglesias en Europa (Hch. 2:46; Ro. 15:6). Les pedimos que oren y estEn alertas con este fin. Translation: The warning in this letter is necessary to protect all churches in Spain, according to the words of the sound [healthy] teaching of the Apostles (1 Ti. 6:3; Tit. 1:9; Acts. 2:42). We wish to cooperate with the Lord to preserve what He has accomplished in the churches in Spain so that the churches can go forward in unity with all the churches in Europe (Acts 2:46, Rom. 15:6). We ask you to pray and be alert to this effect. David Martinez (Madrid) Jorge Cruz (Madrid) Cristobal Linero (Malaga) Diego Diaz (Malaga) Nicolas Morales (Cordoba) Manuel de la Rica (Cordoba) Joe Davis Bill Lewallen Hector Aponte Oscar Cordero Jameson Chen Russell Cox __________________ αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11

02-16-2009, 02:46 AM	#16
Suannehill Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: North of Mansfield Ohio Posts: 165	Re: Letter from the The Church in Madrid Spain (regarding Dong's ministry) I have to agree. They just described themselves! Sue __________________ http://godswordtowomen.org/Lesson%201.htm

02-18-2009, 08:11 AM	#22
Oregon Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 67	Re: Letter from the The Church in Madrid Spain (regarding Dong's ministry) My story is very simple Igzy. I came into the church life when I was 17 and have spent the majority of my life in the local churches. When I was young and in the earlier years the situation was quite different. There was no Recovery Version…although I am not opposed to it. There was no Holy Word for Morning Revival Booklets and I am not opposed to them either. Witness Lee clearly taught back then that if you move to a new city and there are some meeting there but their practices are quite different then just drop everything and be one with them. The commonly held belief that Witness Lee is the apostle of the age and that his ministry was the ministry of the age certainly was not taught in those days. We all had books written by other genuinely spiritual authors and we even sold them at the book table in the meeting hall. Witness Lee publicly praised the book “The Spirit of Christ” written by Andrew Murray and many of us had and read that book regularly…..and it is a tremendous book as well as the other writings of Andrew Murray. Madame Guyon’s writings were read and cherished by many. William Law was another writer held in high regard. When Bother Lee gave messages on “The Generality of the church” we all picked that up and were very impressed with that. That basically stated that we should only fight for the basic elements of the Christian faith and be general about everything else or we would cause division. Well……I think that is clearly a thing of the past. The local churches may still utter this but in practice it is not so. I did function as an elder in one of the local churches for a number of years but that means nothing to me and I only mention it because you asked to hear my story. The departure of many precious ones over the years has been a great loss and it has had a deep affect upon me. When John Ingles and Bill Mallon left that was a real landmark to me. I’ve known John personally for many years and still hold him in high regard. I didn’t know Bill Mallon as well but he did stay in our house when I was younger when he spoke at a conference in our locality. I knew Max Rappport(spelling?) fairly well and am very familiar with what went on with that whole situation. When John So left that was also very significant to me. John So left a deep impression on me in those early years. I went through all the “door knocking” evangelization of the late 80’s and eventually became a….not so consecrated half hearted attendee. I have fellowshipped outside of the local churches for a number of years. I’m not full of bitterness or active condemnation of the LSM churches. I just believe they have moved away from the genuine practice of “keeping the oneness of the body” to the following of a ministry. I’m not a Witness Lee hater…….but have always preferred the writings of Watchman Nee over Witness Lee and I believe there are significant differences in their writings. They “Do Not” always speak the same thing. Anyhow….there you have my story in a nutshell. I still believe all believers in a locality should function as the church in their city and you and I have debated over this. I’m not going to carry on and endless debate on the issue. That’s my basic story. There’s no way I’m going to believe that only those under Witness Lee’s ministry, who are in tight nit fellowship with the local churches under the oversight of the Blended Brothers, is the only genuine fellowship of the body of Christ as this letter seems to state. The Spirit bears witness with our spirit as Paul said in Romans. I have touched life in many saints not in the “only genuine fellowship” . The statement in this letter definitely shows the “exclusiveness” that has developed over these years.

02-18-2009, 08:56 AM	#23
Cal Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: USA Posts: 4,330	Re: Letter from the The Church in Madrid Spain (regarding Dong's ministry) Thanks for your story, Oregon. I was wondering a couple of things. (And I'm not trying to bait you into another local ground debate.) But I would like to know if there is an LSM following local church in your area and if so, how you reconcile your beliefs about locality with the fact that there may be one, two or many groups meeting on locality in your city, including one you don't care to meet with. I'm not trying to rope you in, I'm just really wondering how you deal with it and decide where to meet. Where do you meet now? Like I said, I'm not trying to bait you. But I would really like to know. These are practical matters and I think others would be interested in your thoughts, as many are wandering in confusion on this issue. You can reply in one of the ground threads if you'd prefer.

06-28-2008, 07:23 PM	#1
UntoHim ἐμοὶ γὰρ τὸ ζῆν Χριστὸς - - For To Me To Live Is Christ! Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 3,791	Europe, Russia and Surrounding area - From: ee_isra@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ee_isra@yahoogroups.com] Sent: Saturday, June 28, 2008 1:39 PM Subject: Report from Romania June 26, 2008 Dear saints, "We just wanted to give you a short update related to what is going on in the Lord's Work in Romania at the moment. As some of you probably know already, there have been some radical changes within the last couple of months related to the Work. As a result of the recent situation in the LME realm, the number of the full-time coworkers serving in Timisoara, had dwindled to less than half their number in the recent past. Moreover, recently, a dear couple in the Work (T. and G. S.) from the Northwest of the US, have moved back to the States, after laboring faithfully and selflessly with us for as long as 7 and a half years. We treasure very much their work in the Lord in Romania for all those years, and we wish that the Lord would bless them in their new beginning back in the US, and also make them a blessing in their sending locality. The fellowship in the Work was that the rest of the coworkers, all Romanians (one couple, D. and S, and two single sisters, A. and C.), would move from Timisoara to Bucharest, mainly to serve in the campus area, following the recent trend of the Lord's Move in Europe. The couple has already moved in a one room flat which is literally at the out gate of a campus with about 7000 students, situated not too far from the meeting place of the Church in Bucharest. We are still looking for a place for the other two sisters. Right now they take accommodation with the saints. Fellowship is in progress for the couple that used to work only in the LSM office (A and C). C will join the Work with half of their time. Now, in the newly created situation, we very much look to the Lord for the next steps. The feeling in the Body is that we would continue to carry out most the activities that the Work was involved in before the those major changes took place: visiting the saints in the country, two Brothers' Times a year, the Int'l Conference annually, seminars in Bucharest with the Rhema contacts, the semiannual Video- trainings, plus feeding the saints with the recent ministry in the form of the HWMR and with the classic ministry in the form of the Life-Study Messages. Just recently, LSM office granted its Office in Bucharest the permission for the Life-Study of Genesis to be published in Romanian, in successive 5 message booklets, on a print- on-demand basis, for the use of the saints and their contacts. Now we would like to list some of the prayer requests for Romania at this time: 1. That the Lord would grant His Work a new and fresh start in Bucharest, with an emphasis on the campus area, so that many students would be gained and added to the church life. 2. That the best two-room flat (in terms of price, location and landlord's human quality) would be secured for the two single sisters in the Work, so they could live as close to the aforementioned campus as possible. 3. That a convenient facility (in terms of room, board and hall) would be secured for the 5-7 September Int'l Conference in Bucharest, as we were not able to find anything available that would match our budget. A renovated student campus would fit our need just fine, but so far none we inquired into was available; and time is running out... 4. That the Lord would cover us in the first trip we want to take in the country with the LME van, spanning 3-8 July. We would visit three localities with saints (one with a local church), and also 4 localities in which saints have contacts. May the local saints, especially the more isolated ones, receive a fresh infusion with life and encouragement, and also may the Lord raise up new lampstands for His testimony in our country. 5. That the Lord would cover the production of the Life-Study of Genesis in Romanian, volume by volume, in a steady flow, so that the saints in the country would get to be regularly fed with the riches of this classic of Brother Lee. In the Lord's unique flow, standing one with you saints for the Lord's present recovery, The coworkers in Bucharest"

06-28-2008, 07:52 PM	#2
Testing123 Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 36	Use of the phrase "the Lord's Work" seems somewhat disturbing. What, pray tell, is the capital-W "Work"?

06-29-2008, 06:44 AM	#3
UntoHim ἐμοὶ γὰρ τὸ ζῆν Χριστὸς - - For To Me To Live Is Christ! Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 3,791	Good question Testing123! In the recent past "The Work" has generally referred to "the spread of the interpreted word", which of course simply refers to the distribution of the "One Publication". These people have very little burden to simply get the word of God out to people, rather they want to make sure they have the footnotes and other printed material so they get "the higher gospel". Another disturbing thing is the use of initials instead of full names, even for a "a dear couple in The WorK" who had been "laboring faithfully and selflessly with us for as long as 7 and a half years". Why is it that only the name of Witness Lee can be mentioned? Over seven years of labor and you can't even mention their name? Kind of bizarre actually.

08-10-2008, 01:18 PM	#4
aron Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Natal Transvaal Posts: 5,626	Here are 3 quotes: "The fellowship in the Work was that..." "The feeling in the Body is that..." "Just recently, LSM office granted its Office in Bucharest the permission..." We have "fellowship in the Work", "feeling in the Body", and "LSM Office granting permission". Are these terms synonymous? It is a little too vague for my liking. Just what is the feeling in the Body, anyhow? Who can presume to say what the Body of Christ is feeling? The LSM office? This is too ill-defined, and ripe for subjectivity masquerading as objective reality.

08-10-2008, 03:00 PM	#5
finallyprettyokay Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 129	two Brothers' Times a year Brothers' Times? the semiannual Video-trainings, plus feeding the saints with the recent ministry in the form of the HWMR and with the classic ministry in the form of the Life-Study Messages. The Video-trainings, again or still. I remember when the trainings were $50 to attend, and if you didn't go to Anaheim, you could watch the videos in your local LSM puppet state center. For $50. the recent ministry or the classic ministry Now there is Classic Lee. Are we ever to going to get a smilie for gagging? fpo

08-11-2008, 04:23 AM	#6
Helper Member Join Date: May 2008 Posts: 3	Now you have one... Helper

08-11-2008, 06:56 AM	#7
finallyprettyokay Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 129	Seek and Ye Shall Find!!!!! You take good care of us here. Thanks! FPO

08-12-2008, 05:26 PM	#9
Paul Cox Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 181	The "feeling in the Body" is all a part of the peculiar language that is Living Stream Churchish. If we remember how the body was exalted and lifted up to a position equal with the Triune God, then when the "feeling in the Body" is mentioned, there is little or no question in the minds of the LSM Church hearers that this word is the final word. Here is another interesting term: "The Lord's move in _________(Europe, Asia, etc)." Every time I see this, or read it, I automatically say: "Is no other Christian work in that area the move of the Lord?" Interestingly, I was listening to a message from Cleveland where Titus referred to the work they are doing in some part of Africa as the Lord's move in that place. At that time I wondered: "Is no other Christian work, including that of LSM, a part of the Lord's move in that region?" I believe most of the saints use this terminology without even thinking about what they are saying. But when you stop and think about what you are actually saying sometimes, it can result in a paradigm shift. Roger

02-18-2009, 02:36 PM	#28
juliep Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Hawaii Posts: 15	Re: Letter from the The Church in Madrid Spain (regarding Dong's ministry) Oregan, were you by chance around for the Gospel Marches? (I only ask because you spoke of the door knocking) They happened in the early 70's...My family was in Houston at the time when this was going on. There were people from the LC marching in the middle of the street with "Gospel Robes" on. The robes said all the favorite sayings like "Praise the Lord", "Oh Lord Jesus", etc. We had drums to march to, I can still remember, and beat out, some of the cadence - Lol. Individuals passed out "Gospel Tracts" while all this was going on, inviting people to the upcoming Love Feast. Quite the spectacle as I recall... Wondering if anyone else remembers these? __________________ Aloha, Julie

02-19-2009, 01:08 PM	#31
juliep Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Hawaii Posts: 15	Re: Letter from the The Church in Madrid Spain (regarding Dong's ministry) I'm sure I've had Angels around me, or I wouldn't be sitting here. So no worries - no ones gonna poke fun of anyone for believing in them! __________________ Aloha, Julie

03-04-2009, 09:24 AM	#32
Mario Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 6	Re: Letter from the The Church in Madrid Spain (regarding Dong's ministry) Then the Blended Brothers spoke all these words, saying, 1. Witness Lee is the acting God, who brought you out of the land of Babylon, out of the house of Christianity. You shall have no other ministers besides him. 2. You shall not make for yourself any publication, or any likeness of a footnote, except what LSM approves. You shall not read them or consider them; for LSM is a jealous organization, visiting the quarantines of the fathers and their children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who don’t follow us, but showing lovingkindness to hundreds, to those who love the ministry and read the approved Morning Revivals. 3. You shall not question the ministry of Witness Lee your minister, for the LSM will not leave him unpunished who takes Brother Lee’s ministry in a light way. 4. Remember the yearly Seven Feasts, to keep them holy. You shall have LSM approved local meetings and conferences during the year, but the Seven Feasts were established by Witness Lee your acting God; during them you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. For during the Seven Feasts Witness Lee made the footnotes, the Life Studies and all that is in them, and he himself established the Seven Feasts; therefore the LSM blessed the Seven Feasts and made them holy. 5. Honor your father and your mother, unless it interferes with the Seven Feasts, that your days may be prolonged in the churches which Witness Lee gave you, so you can go to more LSM events and buy their books. 6. You shall not murder, although despising your brothers in the denominations and the GLA is OK. 7. You shall not commit adultery, unless your spouse does not agree with LSM or follow the minister of the age, Witness Lee. 8. You shall not steal footnotes. 9. You shall not bear false witness against your neighboring Christians, unless it is for a good cause, like spreading the good news of LSM and the minister of the age, Witness Lee. 10. You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife or his male servant or his female servant or his ox or his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor, for why should you? Everything of any value is in Brother Lee’s footnotes as dispensed by the Blended Brothers All the people perceived the thunder and the lightning flashes and the sound of the trumpet and the mountain smoking from the many lawyers and threatening lawsuits by LSM; and when the people saw it, they trembled and stood at a distance. (Exiting Chapter 20)

03-04-2009, 09:50 AM	#33
UntoHim ἐμοὶ γὰρ τὸ ζῆν Χριστὸς - - For To Me To Live Is Christ! Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 3,791	Re: Letter from the The Church in Madrid Spain (regarding Dong's ministry) Man, I'm so jealous.... I thought of coming up with something like this... but I couldn't have done it half as good! Welcome to the forum Mario. When you get a chance please go to the "Introduction and Testimonies" board and tell us a little about yourself. __________________ αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11

03-04-2009, 10:09 AM	#34
Mario Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 6	Re: Letter from the The Church in Madrid Spain (regarding Dong's ministry) Los 7 unos en Efesios 4;4-6 Un cuerpo, un Espíritu, una Esperanza, un Señor, una fe, un Bautismo, un Dios Pero los de l a iglesia local añadieron más unos. Un Ministerio, un Liderazgo, Una autoridad delegada, un oráculo Divino el Hermano Lee., una Literatura, una unidad, una iglesia recobrada, un solo terreno, los hermanos compenetrados la única autoridad en todo el universo, la única realidad del cuerpo de Cristo, el único lugar donde pueden salir los vencedores, la única iglesia verdadera, las 7 fiestas, __________________ Caborca

03-04-2009, 02:41 PM	#37
UntoHim ἐμοὶ γὰρ τὸ ζῆν Χριστὸς - - For To Me To Live Is Christ! Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 3,791	Re: Letter from the The Church in Madrid Spain (regarding Dong's ministry) Ah, I see that now brudder Ohio... thanks! And yes, ding, ding, ding, congrats to Mario for being the 100th member!! And Mario wins........ NADA - __________________ αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11

03-04-2009, 02:49 PM	#38
UntoHim ἐμοὶ γὰρ τὸ ζῆν Χριστὸς - - For To Me To Live Is Christ! Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 3,791	Re: Letter from the The Church in Madrid Spain (regarding Dong's ministry) Thanks to Igzy for the translation. My Spanish is mucho rusty. To Mario: In the future if you could just provide the translation for us that would be best. Any longer/significant posts should probably be made in English. Gracias mi hermano! - __________________ αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11

03-05-2009, 07:38 AM	#40
UntoHim ἐμοὶ γὰρ τὸ ζῆν Χριστὸς - - For To Me To Live Is Christ! Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 3,791	Re: Letter from the The Church in Madrid Spain (regarding Dong's ministry) Ok, while you two Espanol heavyweights are duking it out, does anybody know where the 10 Commandments spoof and this Ephesians 4 redo came from? - __________________ αὐτῷ ἡ δόξα καὶ τὸ κράτος εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων ἀμήν - 1 Peter 5:11

03-05-2009, 08:51 AM	#41
djohnson Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 318	Re: Letter from the The Church in Madrid Spain (regarding Dong's ministry) Has Dong Yu Lan been quarantined by the Blended Prattlers yet? Frankly I'm a bit surprised he wasn't just lumped in with Chu & Co since apparently he has been thumbing his nose at the one publication papal policy of the LSM for quite some time. __________________ My greatest joy is knowing Jesus Christ!

03-05-2009, 12:15 PM	#42
Cal Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: USA Posts: 4,330	Re: Letter from the The Church in Madrid Spain (regarding Dong's ministry) My translation was courtesy of Google Translate.

03-11-2009, 07:16 PM	#44
Mario Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 6	Re: Letter from the The Church in Madrid Spain (regarding Dong's ministry) La Biblia nos llama para seguir a Cristo Por muchos años de mi vida Cristiana, di mi vida a seguir a un hombre y su ministerio, mi lealtad asía el llego hacer un vehiculo de engaño que me aparto de Aquel quien me llamo para Seguirle La Biblia nos llama para seguir a Cristo, pero la historia nos muestra repetidas veces que el hombre es propenso de seguir al hombre, y que el hombre sea su centro. Pablo les dijo a la iglesia 1Corintios 3:4 Porque diciendo el uno: Yo ciertamente soy de Pablo; y el otro: Yo soy de Apolos, ¿no sois carnales? En la iglesia local cometimos este mismo error de seguir a un hombre Witness Lee. Pablo fue un vaso escogido por El Señor con el único propósito de darle una revelación en la era del Nuevo Testamento. Satanás sin embargo cambio y mal uso esta verdad para convencernos, de que Dios tiene una persona como Pablo en cada era y que Wintness Lee es el hombre para este tiempo para esta era. Yo ya no creo que Dios tenga solo un hombre para este tiempo en la tierra como Su portavoz y que todos tengamos que seguirlo. La Biblia no enseña esto. La Historia nos enseña que en cada periodo de tiempo de un avivamiento desde la Resurrección de Cristo hasta el presente ha sido con una multitud de creyentes, y no tenían que seguir a uno exclusivamente. Yo creo como la Biblia dice que Pablo era un vaso escogido y que su vida era un modelo. Pablo no era un modelo para mostrarnos que Dios solo tiene un hombre en cada era y que tenemos que seguir a ese hombre no, la Biblia dice en 1Timoteo 1:16 Pero por esto fui recibido a misericordia, para que Jesucristo mostrase en mí el primero toda su clemencia, para ejemplo de los que habrían de creer en él para vida eterna. Apocalipsis 14:4 Estos son los que siguen al Cordero por dondequiera que va. La Historia Cristiana comenzando en la iglesia en Corintios nos muestra que ellos querían tener un único Líder y ha este tenían que seguir, ellos decian, Yo ciertamente soy de Pablo; y el otro: Yo soy de Apolos, ¿no sois carnales? Nuestra humanidad caída le gusta formar partidos alrededor de los líderes. Cuando Pablo escucho que en la iglesia en Corintos dijeron que ellos eran de Pablo, El no acepto esta exclamación acerca de El, pero al contrario Pablo los corrigió por esta clase de exaltación y les predico el mensaje de la cruz. Pero Witness Lee y muchos otros hoy día reciben la exaltación y buscan sus seguidores, y no llevan a la gente a tener una intima comunión y seguir Aquel que murió por ellos Cristo. Saludes de Mario y Dora Sandoval __________________ Caborca

03-11-2009, 07:19 PM	#45
Mario Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 6	Re: Letter from the The Church in Madrid Spain (regarding Dong's ministry) [quote=Mario;6073]La Biblia nos llama para seguir a Cristo Por muchos años de mi vida Cristiana, di mi vida a seguir a un hombre y su ministerio, mi lealtad asía el llego hacer un vehiculo de engaño que me aparto de Aquel quien me llamo para Seguirle La Biblia nos llama para seguir a Cristo, pero la historia nos muestra repetidas veces que el hombre es propenso de seguir al hombre, y que el hombre sea su centro. Pablo les dijo a la iglesia 1Corintios 3:4 Porque diciendo el uno: Yo ciertamente soy de Pablo; y el otro: Yo soy de Apolos, ¿no sois carnales? En la iglesia local cometimos este mismo error de seguir a un hombre Witness Lee. Pablo fue un vaso escogido por El Señor con el único propósito de darle una revelación en la era del Nuevo Testamento. Satanás sin embargo cambio y mal uso esta verdad para convencernos, de que Dios tiene una persona como Pablo en cada era y que Wintness Lee es el hombre para este tiempo para esta era. Yo ya no creo que Dios tenga solo un hombre para este tiempo en la tierra como Su portavoz y que todos tengamos que seguirlo. La Biblia no enseña esto. La Historia nos enseña que en cada periodo de tiempo de un avivamiento desde la Resurrección de Cristo hasta el presente ha sido con una multitud de creyentes, y no tenían que seguir a uno exclusivamente. Yo creo como la Biblia dice que Pablo era un vaso escogido y que su vida era un modelo. Pablo no era un modelo para mostrarnos que Dios solo tiene un hombre en cada era y que tenemos que seguir a ese hombre no, la Biblia dice en 1Timoteo 1:16 Pero por esto fui recibido a misericordia, para que Jesucristo mostrase en mí el primero toda su clemencia, para ejemplo de los que habrían de creer en él para vida eterna. Apocalipsis 14:4 Estos son los que siguen al Cordero por dondequiera que va. La Historia Cristiana comenzando en la iglesia en Corintios nos muestra que ellos querían tener un único Líder y ha este tenían que seguir, ellos decian, Yo ciertamente soy de Pablo; y el otro: Yo soy de Apolos, ¿no sois carnales? Nuestra humanidad caída le gusta formar partidos alrededor de los líderes. Cuando Pablo escucho que en la iglesia en Corintos dijeron que ellos eran de Pablo, El no acepto esta exclamación acerca de El, pero al contrario Pablo los corrigió por esta clase de exaltación y les predico el mensaje de la cruz. Pero Witness Lee y muchos otros hoy día reciben la exaltación y buscan sus seguidores, y no llevan a la gente a tener una intima comunión y seguir Aquel que murió por ellos Cristo. __________________ Caborca

03-11-2009, 07:22 PM	#46
Mario Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 6	Re: Letter from the The Church in Madrid Spain (regarding Dong's ministry) La Biblia nos llama para seguir a Cristo Por muchos años de mi vida Cristiana, di mi vida a seguir a un hombre y su ministerio, mi lealtad asía el llego hacer un vehiculo de engaño que me aparto de Aquel quien me llamo para Seguirle La Biblia nos llama para seguir a Cristo, pero la historia nos muestra repetidas veces que el hombre es propenso de seguir al hombre, y que el hombre sea su centro. Pablo les dijo a la iglesia 1Corintios 3:4 Porque diciendo el uno: Yo ciertamente soy de Pablo; y el otro: Yo soy de Apolos, ¿no sois carnales? En la iglesia local cometimos este mismo error de seguir a un hombre Witness Lee. Pablo fue un vaso escogido por El Señor con el único propósito de darle una revelación en la era del Nuevo Testamento. Satanás sin embargo cambio y mal uso esta verdad para convencernos, de que Dios tiene una persona como Pablo en cada era y que Wintness Lee es el hombre para este tiempo para esta era. Yo ya no creo que Dios tenga solo un hombre para este tiempo en la tierra como Su portavoz y que todos tengamos que seguirlo. La Biblia no enseña esto. La Historia nos enseña que en cada periodo de tiempo de un avivamiento desde la Resurrección de Cristo hasta el presente ha sido con una multitud de creyentes, y no tenían que seguir a uno exclusivamente. Yo creo como la Biblia dice que Pablo era un vaso escogido y que su vida era un modelo. Pablo no era un modelo para mostrarnos que Dios solo tiene un hombre en cada era y que tenemos que seguir a ese hombre no, la Biblia dice en 1Timoteo 1:16 Pero por esto fui recibido a misericordia, para que Jesucristo mostrase en mí el primero toda su clemencia, para ejemplo de los que habrían de creer en él para vida eterna. Apocalipsis 14:4 Estos son los que siguen al Cordero por dondequiera que va. La Historia Cristiana comenzando en la iglesia en Corintios nos muestra que ellos querían tener un único Líder y ha este tenían que seguir, ellos decian, Yo ciertamente soy de Pablo; y el otro: Yo soy de Apolos, ¿no sois carnales? Nuestra humanidad caída le gusta formar partidos alrededor de los líderes. Cuando Pablo escucho que en la iglesia en Corintos dijeron que ellos eran de Pablo, El no acepto esta exclamación acerca de El, pero al contrario Pablo los corrigió por esta clase de exaltación y les predico el mensaje de la cruz. Pero Witness Lee y muchos otros hoy día reciben la exaltación y buscan sus seguidores, y no llevan a la gente a tener una intima comunión y seguir Aquel que murió por ellos Cristo. __________________ Caborca

03-11-2009, 07:22 PM	#47
cityonahill Member Join Date: Aug 2008 Posts: 67	Re: Letter from the The Church in Madrid Spain (regarding Dong's ministry) HAHAHAHA Let's see you try to translate that one ABIC!:veryconfused: I think I see something in there about tamales? chips n' queso? no? __________________ "If anyone is confident that they belong to Christ, they should consider again that we belong to Christ just as much as they do..."(2 Cor. 10:7)

03-11-2009, 08:22 PM	#48
IDon'tKnow Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Posts: 67	Re: Letter from the The Church in Madrid Spain (regarding Dong's ministry) Here is google translates translation of mario's post. The Bible calls us to follow Christ For many years of my Christian life, gave my life to follow a man and his ministry, my loyalty Asia came to a vehicle of deception to me away from Him who called me to follow The Bible calls us to follow Christ, but history repeatedly shows us that man is prone to follow the man and that man is the center. Paul told the church 1Corinthians 3:4 For the one saying, "I certainly am of Paul, and the other, I am of Apollos, are you not carnal? In the local church that mistake of following a man Witness Lee. Paul was a vessel chosen by God for the sole purpose of giving a revelation in the Era of the New Testament. Satan however change misuse and to convince us this truth, that God has a person like Paul in every age and Wintness Lee is the man for this time for this era. I no longer believe that God has only one man for this time on earth as His spokesman, and that all have to follow. The Bible does not teach this. History teaches us that each time a revival since the Resurrection of Christ until the present has been a multitude of believers, and they had to follow an exclusively. I believe as the Bible says that Paul was a chosen vessel and that his life was a model. Paul was not a model to show that God is only one man in every age and that we should not follow that man, the Bible says on this 1Timoteo 1:16 But I received mercy, so that Jesus Christ showed me the first all his mercy, for example those who would believe in him for eternal life. Revelation 14:4 These are they who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. Christian history beginning in the church in Corinthians tells us that they wanted to have a single leader and this has had to follow, they said, I certainly am of Paul, and the other, I am of Apollos, are you not carnal? Our humanity will fall like form parties around the leaders. When Paul heard that the church at Corinth were told that they were of Paul, the exclamation point on this I do not accept it, but unlike Paul corrected this sort of exaltation, and preach the message of the cross. But Witness Lee and many others today are looking for the excitement and his followers, and not lead people to have an intimate communion and follow Him that Christ died for them.

08-04-2009, 07:21 AM	#49
Admin He came not to be Served but Serve Join Date: May 2009 Posts: 39	Fellowship Concerning Europe Fellowship Concerning Europe 2009-07-03 FELLOWSHIP CONCERNING EUROPE-SUMMER 2009 In 1977 Brother Lee gave a conference in Europe (printed in The Kernel of the Bible, published by Living Stream Ministry) and spoke about the Lord's return and the need for churches to be raised up in Europe : The time is short. The Lord is coming soon. As we have pointed out, before His coming back, He needs to complete the building of the church. It would be a shame to Him to come back without finishing this. Look at today's Christianity. Look at the Catholic Church, the denominations, and the free groups. What a mess! What a confusion! Is not all this a shame to the Lord? How could He come back to such a situation? Where is the fulfillment of His word in Matthew 16 that He will build His church? Where is the church built upon the rock? For the sake of His coming back, the Lord must build the church. Now I want to say strongly that the Lord must build His church in the territory of Antichrist . Before Antichrist appears, the Lord Jesus must build His churches in Western Europe . Although many Christians are waiting for the Lord to come back, He is waiting for the building up of His churches. Praise the Lord that our eyes have been opened to see the need of the building of the local churches! In Italy , France , Switzerland , England , Holland , Denmark , Sweden , and Norway there is such a need. (The Kernel of the Bible, p. 186-187) Today, 32 years after Brother Lee spoke these words, we are greatly encouraged by the response of some who have recently emigrated to some of the countries mentioned above. The Current Situation in Europe - There are now 63 lampstands in 23 European countries. - Another 48 localities are meeting in oneness and should begin taking the Lord's table very soon. - In France , England , Greece , Spain , Holland , Sweden , Ireland , and Germany , there are small teams laboring fulltime on university campuses in major cities. The full-timers and local saints in these cities have reached many people who are open and wanting more contact and fellowship. - In the United Kingdom , in the cities of London , Cambridge , Norwich , and Reading there are 28 full-timers laboring on eight teams at various universities. These saints have been in contact with hundreds of students in the last year. However, our labor has shown that 'the harvest is great but the workers few' (Matthew 9:37). The numbers of those who respond to us are consistently far more than the saints who can take care of them. The Situation in the United Kingdom - In the UK there are 29 cities that have a university student population of over 20,000. Of these cities, 9 have 50,000 students or more. There are saints living in only 10 of the 29 cities. This means that there are 19 cities with major universities of at least 20,000 students with no saints living there. - In London, of the 2,442 listeners of Life-study of the Bible who have called in the last year, over 500 have requested contact by phone or are willing to open their homes for a time in the word and to go to homes nearby to join in a home meeting. - Yet there is still no lampstand in many major cities of the United Kingdom , including York , Liverpool, Manchester , Sheffield, Belfast , Cardiff , Edinburgh , and Glasgow . There are radio listeners and Rhema recipients in all 50 major cities in England as well as the major cities in Wales , Scotland , and Northern Ireland . There is a vast need for many more to come and join those in the cities mentioned by Brother Lee, as well as to go to so many more of the major cities throughout Europe where there is no one living the church life. In every European city where the saints are laboring to find the seeking ones, more and more seeking ones are responding. In Austria, Belgium, France, Germany, Holland, Norway, Sweden, Spain, Switzerland, UK, Republic of Ireland, Poland, Romania, and Hungary, thousands of copies of Rhema sets 1, 2, and 3 have been distributed. However, there is still no distribution in many European countries. This is due mainly to the small number of saints who have emigrated to labor so far. So, although we are encouraged by the situation, it seems that the response to the word our brother spoke 32 years ago has been slow. In this same conference, Brother Lee spoke very specifically about our going: How I long that you all would be burdened to go to the major cities in Europe that the Lord might have a church in each of them! You need to say, 'Lord, burden me to go to Paris for the church life. Lord, burden me to go to Rome so that You may have a church there. O Lord, burden me for a church in Stockholm .' If you are faithful to the Lord, honest with Him, and willing to be burdened, even five or seven could move to a city to start the church life there. So many cities need a shining lampstand. Paris needs one! Geneva needs one! Western Europe is not a heathen land like Mongolia or Tibet . It is an old region saturated with Christianity. But where is the church? Although this is a land of Christendom , of Christianity, where is the church? Can the Lord Jesus come back to the Church of England? Can He come back to the confusion in the free groups? If the Lord came back today, He would be ashamed because the Bride has not been prepared. Suppose it is the day of your wedding, and your bride is not present. Would that not be a shame to you? Certainly no bridegroom would come, stand, and wait for his bride until he was assured that she was prepared and adorned for him. The Lord Jesus is coming as the Bridegroom for the Bride. But where is the Bride in all of Western Europe ? This is not a matter of doctrine. I hate the mere doctrine of the church. I want to see some genuine, living churches. I do not care for the number that are in these churches. If there could be a church in Rome with a hundred fifty people who are shining, filled with Christ, and immersed in Christ, the Lord would be able to boast to Satan. He could say, 'Satan, in your city of Rome I have a shining church!' Brothers , you all must be burdened for the churches in Europe . (The Kernel of the Bible, pp.187-188) Brother Lee spoke further about the Lord's calling for those who would be willing to come and labor: Young people, the Lord needs churches, and you must bear the burden for this. Surely the Lord desires a church in Madrid , the capital of the old Catholic country of Spain . Who is willing to be burdened to go there? The Lord is calling for this. Who will go to Paris ? To London ? To Rome ? In these dark cities there is no lampstand. Oh, the Lord is calling! Who is willing to be burdened to go to a major city in Europe so that the Lord may have a church there? The Lord is calling! He is calling you and me to bear the burden for the major cities in Europe that He may have churches built up in the territory of the coming Antichrist. Go and tell others that today the Lord needs churches! (The Kernel of the Bible, p. 188) Although there are now churches in Madrid, London, Stockholm, and Paris, there is still no solid and shining lampstand in Rome, Milan, Florence, Venice, Vienna, Marseilles, Geneva, Luxembourg, Bonn, Munich, Copenhagen, and countless other large cities throughout the Western European countries. There are also a number of large cities in Poland , Romania , and Hungary in Eastern Europe where there is no lampstand. The situation seems overwhelming when we consider such a great need. However, we are happy to declare that within the past few months, saints have begun to meet as a local expression of the Lord's universal Body in Bristol , England , one of the largest cities in England with a key university. Recently, the first Lord's table meeting was supported by approximately 200 saints from throughout the UK . Saints have been meeting in Bristol for some time, and the feeling in the Body was that the time was ripe for the Lord to have His testimony in this key city. In the 17th and 18th centuries, Bristol was a key city for the labor of John Wesley and George Muller. Now the Lord has His lampstand in this key city. Also, saints have been meeting in Milan , Italy , for over three years with the desire to take a strong stand as a lampstand. Due to the influence of another work in Italy the past few years, the saints have been waiting for the right time to take such a stand. In fellowship in the Lord's Body, the time now seems right to do so. Therefore, the saints will gather on September 27, 2009, to have the first Lord's table meeting in the city of Milan . Those wishing to attend and to stand with these dear saints will find the particulars at: www.amanatrust.org.uk/events/conf2009/italy.php Brother Lee spoke of a simple way for each one of us to take if we are willing: Forty-five years ago I was in a situation where there was no church. Every morning I rose up early, went to the top of a mountain, and prayed to the Lord. No one had taught me to call on His name, but there on the mountain I practiced calling on the Lord. Every morning I cried to the Lord, calling on His name and saying, 'Lord, what do You want me to do? Lord, as a young man, I am here and I am ready. I am ready for You, for Your interests, for Your kingdom and for Your move on earth.' I prayed like this for nine months. Eventually, in that city the Lord started the church life, and that church became very prevailing. Because of that church, many churches were raised up in the north, northeast, and northwest of China . Oh, the Lord is able! He can do it! But it all depends on you. Are you willing for this? (The Kernel of the Bible, p. 188-189)

08-04-2009, 11:28 AM	#50
OBW Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: DFW area Posts: 4,382	Re: Fellowship Concerning Europe If Lee had a heart for the unsaved more than a desire to see his exclusive sect spread throughout Europe and the rest of the world, what a testimony this would have been! But he had almost nothing to say about the unsaved. He only spoke of his disdain for other Christians who were not of his flock. Then his replacements only spoke of going to university campuses, mentioning 29 cities in the UK with 20,000 or more students. While they did mention that the harvest is great, only contact with students is mentioned. What about the day-laborers and skilled craftsmen, businessmen/women, teachers, artists, cooks, business owners, etc.? Is the call selective? Are those beyond college age also beyond hope? Why not go door knocking in these cities? What about the many-times-greater number of cities without college campuses? Are they Satan's stronghold and it is presumed that his gates will prevail against the church when it comes knocking? And why is it that the gospel being preached is not considered the cornerstone of the return of the Lord? Instead, is it the establishment of a congregation of a particular sect that will bring the Lord back? I do not find that stated anywhere in scripture. I must presume that their labor in the harvest is primarily to gain converts to their sect. Or am I wrong? Will they labor on an unsaved preson and bring them the word that brings them to salvation even if they expect that they will simply go down the street to one of those exciting "Emerging" churches? I suspect that their interest will disappear when they realize that the new convert, or even member of some other sect is not going to join in their "Church in City" sect. Surely the Western European situation is ripe for the gospel because Christianity has all but been expunged, and even though it is beginning to show some rebound, it is still a shadow of what it once was. The great buildings of past years (even outside of the RCC cathedrals) would collapse without being designated as historical sites and museums with only a minuscule congregation using the facilities in some cases. But the need is Christ. If they receive Christ, there is the church because they will meet. No special sect is required. The myopia that passes itself off as the only one for the age doesn't even seem to care about the gospel, just its sect. This is the words of Lee taken to even more ridiculous extremes by people who would institutionalize his shortsightedness. __________________ Mike I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel

08-05-2009, 04:06 AM	#54
YP0534 Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 688	Identity of Admin I'm pretty sure Admin is NOT a current member of the Local Church, friends. The posts were copied from elsewhere, as has been done from time to time, to keep we "negatives" informed about the current activities of the "positives", especially in their antics abroad. I'm sure Admin will speak directly to this issue since there is now confusion. In fact, I believe Admin may also reveal their customary username at this juncture to further clarify the situation. Admin? __________________ Let each walk as the Lord has distributed to each, as God has called each, and in this manner I instruct all the assemblies. 1 Cor. 7:17

08-05-2009, 06:27 AM	#55
UntoHim ἐμοὶ γὰρ τὸ ζῆν Χριστὸς - - For To Me To Live Is Christ! Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 3,791	Re: Fellowship Concerning Europe YP you left out the part about "anything you say can and will be used against you" When posting things like this I thought it would be less distracting if I used the generic "Admin" - that's what I get for thinking.

08-05-2009, 08:00 AM	#57
awareness Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 8,064	Re: Fellowship Concerning Europe UnToHim, Well I sure was off base then. Sorry UTH. I sure don't think you need to re-think these matters. And so I guess I can't really talk to the one, or ones, that wrote all that claptrap about Europe and Brazil. Pity..... I would have liked a discussion with the writer, or writers. But thanks for posting them.. __________________ Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise.

03-02-2017, 04:42 AM	#58
Koinonia Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 524	"An Urgent Need Regarding the Lord's Move in Europe" An Urgent Need Regarding the Lord's Move in Europe Dear ...., We wanted to open to you a very specific burden that was released during the recent Special Conference that took place in lieu of the International Chinese-speaking Conference. The general subject of this time was Special Fellowship Concerning the World Situation and the Lord's Move and was both a direct continuation and a practical outworking of the high truths concerning God's move that are revealed in the book of Ezekiel. The messages are available at www.lsmwebcast.com listed as the last item under '"Conferences" in the "Audio Archives" section. As most of you are aware, the recent shifts in the world situation have allowed unprecedented access to refugees from predominantly Muslim countries and afforded the Lord a way to work among the German people as He has not been able to do for many years. With this in view, the brothers released a very particular burden regarding the Lord's current move, specifically in the direction of Europe. It was opened that we firstly need to know this age and the present truth (which is to live in the tide of God's will) in order to cooperate with God to carry out His move. We also need a vision of God's sovereignty and an understanding of the universal history - the divine history that is hidden within the human history. Regarding this universal history, the outline of message two points out that, "The Roman Empire was for the gospel; Germany was for the Reformation; Great Britain was for the spreading of the gospel and of the truth; and now the United States has become the center for the recovery, from which it can spread to all the continents." It is striking that the world situation has always been the indicator of God's move on earth. Having recovered gospel preaching, teaching the Bible, and the proper way of meeting, God's ultimate recovery - His ultimate move - is to gain a people who have Christ as their life and live Him. The Lord needs His recovered truths to be spread to the whole earth by such Christ-filled and Christ-living men. This is our ultimate responsibility - to be saturated with Christ for the Body, to bear the testimony of Jesus, and to spread the testimony of Jesus by following the Lamb wherever He may go. Finally, the conference concluded with a rich message full of practical points regarding our working under the leading of the Spirit while honoring the Head and being balanced by the Body. At the end of this timely and weighty conference, a special word was given regarding the current situation and the current needs with regard to the Lord's move in Germany. While there are many ways to participate (which will be enumerated in forthcoming emails), there is a particularly urgent need at this time. A distribution of hundreds of thousands of Recovery Version Bibles and ministry books across Europe is planned for the week following the International Training for Elders and Responsible Ones (ITERO) in Leipzig, Germany, this October. Living Stream Ministry (LSM) must place an order for these by the end of March. The need for this distribution matches, if not surpasses, that of the distribution in South America several years ago. Please consider before the Lord how you might be able to contribute to the purchase of Bibles and books for the distribution across Europe. Link to special fellowship: http://lordsmove.org/oldsite/reportspecial2017.html Please send any offerings to LSM and designate them as "Bibles for Europe," as follows: By mail: (Check payable to "Living Stream Ministry") Living Stream Ministry 2431 W. La Palma Ave. Anaheim, CA 92801 By bank wire: Please send an email to gail@lsm.org for instructions By credit card: Please call (714) 991-4681 If it is not possible to send offerings to LSM, send them to LME at www.lordsmove.org/offerings.html with the designation "Bibles for Europe." Yours faithfully, Brothers serving with LivingtoHim.com

03-02-2017, 10:55 PM	#60
least Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 174	Re: Europe, Russia and Surrounding area - Quote: there is a particularly urgent need at this time. A distribution of hundreds of thousands of Recovery Version Bibles and ministry books across Europe is planned for the week following the International Training for Elders and Responsible Ones (ITERO) in Leipzig, Germany, this October. Living Stream Ministry (LSM) must place an order for these by the end of March. End quote. BUY! BUY! BUY! THE burden. Urgent!!! BUUUYYYYY!!!!!