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09-15-2020, 04:15 PM
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#1 |
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Member
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 118
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Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Intro- I am currently part of the local churches (east coast), and upon joining for a little while now (not too new and not a long term member) I seem to have a lot of questions I wouldn't feel comfortable asking upfront just by the nature of it. (the word "but" is used an unnecessary amount of times but im done typing/adjusting and just want to post.
1. What exactly is the hierarchy of the local churches? On these forums I see these terms of Coworker, blended brothers, elders, (whats next after elders and so on) etc. What exactly are these titles and their function, and how would you know if someone is in one of these positions? It seems pretty subtle when it comes to knowing who is who and what is what. I feel like I have no idea how this system is organized and it feels like it is something that is not explained for a long while for some reason or another. 2. My second question goes to the dream/mission of the church and is to basically have a society that has no denominations and have full unity. To cut a long story short this seems real nice at first glance but obviously has no real practical pursuit as humanity will always think differently and be divided whether that is religion, politics, ideology, conduct of livelihood etc. But if the local churches want to pursue this to the best they can, even with the evident reality then its fine- go pursue life with how ever you believe. The real problem is how the local churches practice of worship completely revolves more around witness lee than the sole word of Christ. I want you to imagine if the Local churches were to grow bigger than what even the catholic church has accomplished and have a collective of Christians having their thoughts consumed solely by the teachings of lee? I do not think that would look to pretty, especially reading all of the under the rug stories of the local church. Honestly the biggest problem in my opinion, with the practice of the local churches is how much they indoctrinate themselves with lee ( I Do not even know his first name or why he is called "witness" lee). 3. What are the certain behaviors that make the Local Church members different. I notice some things like they have dont televisions, and I think they do not celebrate Christmas and Easter. There probably more things they do and not that I have not noticed yet. What is the essential code of conduct among the local churches and where does these behaviors come from (maybe witness lee?). 4. This last point is kind of ridiculous in my opinion and it has to do with the relations of men and women in the local churches. It is very easy to tell brothers and sisters are separated as much as possible unless married. It really got to me when I brought my girlfriend (still having a celibate boundary), over to a lords day meeting and the amount of just piercing glares was just like woah- what is going on. Then I am later told about how dating is not moral and is only meant with intent on marriage and they read me verses on this subject,and It was obvious my girlfriend was a problem to them. But to be frank I am an adult in my twenties and I dont understand a darn bit how the woman I am with is anybody concern and how do they think they are in a position to dictate me, on how and who to date. But the situation with me is minuscule compared to some other brothers. 4.5- This is a continuation of point number 4 but focusing on other brothers. To get straight to it- the separation of male and female seems justifiable at a youth age but gets kind of out of hand for adults. I understand you want children to not be reckless and to focus on Christ and establishing their life before pursuing woman but it gets out of hand at a certain age with the restrictions of separation. I know brothers in their late twenties and even early to mid thirties who for sadly obvious reasons they are not in good standing with pursuing a relationship. They barely have any opportunities to talk to the sisters and they frankly dont know how to since they have never done it for their entire lives (the ones who grew up LC). Lastly, there are probably no sisters interested in them in, in that locality. But instead of going out there in the world and being a man and finding their own woman, they just sit there while they fellowship with the brothers and praying for their troubles (repeatedly). But the fact is- the reasons they cant find a woman to settle with (socially, physically, financially, etc), still applies to the local church woman just as much to woman outside the local churches. Everyone looks for standards in a relationship and if you have a lot of perceived flaws/judgement then it takes that much more work to find a woman who accepts you and embraces. So sitting your butt down while in your thirties and hoping for some sort of miracle is not productive. I wish I could tell them to get their butts out there and find their woman. I believe there is somebody for everyone but some people just never find that person cause they dont do what is required to do so. But I dont want to be seen as blunt and harsh. The thing is that if these brothers I talked about were 18 or 19 years of age just starting to explore the world and seeing the work required to live in it than it wouldn't be a problem and time will develop them. But some these are men in their mid thirties sitting their hopelessly and sad, not realizing they might need to expand their world outside the local churches to get what they want. Having a woman/spouse is one of the most essential things for a man to have and to make it so hard for grown men to even have a basic interaction with woman (talking, standard dating),to me makes no sense. Especially when some men are by default of certain qualities, going to have a harder time dating/finding a woman. Im not even going to get into the arranged marriage/elders permission nonsense (as seen in other post), as my post is long enough. - This concludes my introduction post, feel free to give your knowledge, thoughts, opinions, and concerns on my post. It was nice introducing myself and I hope to gain more insight. also sorry for the typos/errors, this was a long post. |
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09-16-2020, 12:11 PM
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#2 |
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Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 2,614
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Jigsaw44 - welcome to the LC Discussion board! I'll try to respond to each of your points, but may not have the knowledge to do so adequately on all of them. My responses are based upon my firsthand knowledge of the LC from the 1070s & 80s in a few different localities, and for some limited things I've learned since then.
1. Regarding the hierarchy, the elders are supposed to be the top authority in a locality. And the LCs were supposed to be autonomous. But this happens to varying degrees and since the mid-1980s, central authority from Anaheim and LSM has become prevalent. The elders and LCs that didn't come under this authority were basically shown the door. I think "co-workers" means ones who were closely associated with WL. Blendeds I have the least idea about, as this made-up term came about after I left in the late 1980s. However, Blendeds wield at least a strong influence over elders I would think . . . 2. You identified a key issue with the LC - its adherence to WL above Christ. They would never admit this, but it is apparent to most anyone who visits a LC gathering. They believe they have the one true ministry and the one true way to Christian unity. This has caused a palatable and fleshly elitism in the LC, that automatically divides them from other members of the body of Christ. They don't see this and believe, like the church in Laodecia, that they have it all. 3. Regarding the behaviors of the LC members . . . no, many do not have TVs and don't celebrate holidays. When I was in, this was a norm, and to do otherwise, well let's just say there was a sort of unwritten peer pressure regarding these things. Nothing wrong with not having these things, and personally I believe the world is completely married to the TV and Christmas. But, it is a covert kind of legalism in the LCs to not practice these things, which supplants the inner working of the Anointing. Other behaviors when I was around including a very conservative style of clothing and things like discouraging make-up on women. Again, there was a kind of covert code, which I don't know that anybody got talked to if they stepped "over the line, " but there was just this understanding that you didn't want to appear too worldly . . . Now I see these things as legalism that just replaces the real experience of Christ in someone's life. 4.5 - I don't know that I can really address this. There has been a lot of discussion on here of late, regarding how the LC treats females (not well). As you point out, there certainly is some prudence in keeping a level of separation for obvious reasons (i.e., rampant hormones), but the LCs seem to get overly legal in this matter too. Maybe someone else could address this more. Hope that helps and again, it's just my opinions and observations. I'm sure many others will chime in.
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LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now Praise the Lord - HE'S GOT THIS! |
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09-16-2020, 01:19 PM
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#3 |
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Member
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 118
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Thank you for the response- Sons to Glory, I have been in the LC for a little while and things just seemed out of place on the surface of things and I was thinking just how strange it truly was once you get to know enough of it.
I encourage other users to chime in and tell me what they know of the local churches whether that is responding to one of my initial questions in the original post or just giving some extra info. |
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09-16-2020, 09:15 PM
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#4 | |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 1,523
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Quote:
I only have a short window to say something but will try to follow up with some more thoughts on the rest of your post in the coming days. But regarding your point #1...... The brothers in the leadership of the local churches adamantly claim that "there is no hierarchy" in the local churches. But, as you may or may not have discovered, there can be a fair amount of contradictory thoughts/teachings in the local church. I say that because while stamping their foot and proclaiming "no hierarchy", the leadership simultaneously holds iron-grip fast to the concept of "deputy authority" in the church. What is "God's deputy authority" you might ask? In the church, what it distills down to is that it's brothers in the lead who must be submitted to whether they are right or wrong. Who are the ones telling us that God's deputy authorities must be submitted to whether right or wrong? Why, those very same deputy authorities. I'll provide a sample quote from an article posted to a recent public relations site they created within the past year: "The apostles charged the believers to submit to all deputy authorities, without regard to whether they were good or bad (Rom. 13:1; Titus 3:1; 1 Pet. 2:13). Believers are likewise charged to honor the elders in the church (1 Tim. 5:17) and be subject to them (1 Pet. 5:5). What if a deputy authority is wrong? If a deputy authority is wrong, we should still submit (Dan. 3:19-21; Acts 16:20-25), though we cannot obey if the authority insists that we act contrary to God (Dan. 3:16-18; Acts 5:29)." One tripping hazard with these kind of quotes is that they are chock-filled with verse references, giving the impression that everything they are saying, stating, and claiming is what the Bible says. But it's just not. What the co-workers have done in the article (I'll get to "the co-workers" in a sec) is mix verses about submitting to SECULAR authorities "whether good or bad", and then pretending like the Bible commands that same "whether good or bad" stance regarding apostles, elders, etc.....in the church. But the Bible NEVER says to submit to someone in the church "whether they are good or bad". Ever. The system of "authority" (if you want to call it that) in the church is completely turned upside down from the world. And Jesus Himself says it in Matthew 20:25-28: 25 Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave— 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.” So just with your first question, you've uncovered a known abusive teaching used in cults and abusive churches. It's a big one, and it tells us reams about what's going on in the local church. And what it's telling us is not good. It basically provides the perfect petri dish of an environment for sin, unrighteousness, and all manner of evil to be covered up and hidden and never dealt with, because the members have been trained to believe they have to submit no matter what. The second you hear anyone saying "we have the authority" is actually the very moment that they have lost their authority, because they have strayed from the thing that really has the authority - the word of God. There's more I could say, but that's an initial toe-dip into the cesspool of hierarchy and authority in the local church. The frustrating thing is, if everyone behaves themselves, a given local church can seem like quite a nice place. Most members have direct access, free fellowship, good relationships with the elders in that locality, and you don't bump up against this strange "deputy authority" that much. It's when 1) someone sins and the eldership is expected to step in and they confusingly develop lead feet and you're expected to not have a problem with their unwillingness to do the right thing, or 2) the co-workers (who are "above" the elders) blow into town and the elders suddenly become simpering backbone-less non-elders who bow to whatever unbiblical stuff the co-workers may be commanding them to do, that you bump up against it. And this stuff happens. Oh boy, does it ever. So in this "we are not a hierarchy", here is a rough idea of the hierarchy as I posted elsewhere on this site: 1. Witness Lee (in the grave) 2. Co-workers in the Lord's recovery - cover the whole world >>a. Senior co-workers >>b. Junior co-workers 3. North America co-workers - includes some regional co-workers, deals only with N.A. 4. Regional co-workers - cover various regions in the U.S., some of whom are North America co-workers, some of whom are not but are elders. 5. Elders in each locality. 6. Responsible brothers in each locality (includes both elders as well as the brothers under them, say, who head up various services in the church, or various district meetings, or handle the HWMR sharing, etc). 7. All the other brothers. 8. All sisters, no matter the age, maturity, responsibility, weightiness, expertise, etc. 8 is a little tongue in cheek, but not really far off from reality as I have observed it, and as you may have noticed. #nohierarchy As you rightly observed, they are shifty about identifying who is who. Elders in each locality are openly known, but above that is mired in clouds of smoke. I think it's commonly understood that "the blended brothers" includes AT LEAST the brothers who share the messages at the LSM live trainings given every summer and winter. "The blended brothers" are either all the co-workers, or a subset of the co-workers. One other wrinkle while I'll only touch upon, is that the majority of the board members of LSM, if not all of them, are also co-workers. And so any decision made by "the co-workers" is by default also a decision made by all the top brass at LSM. What this does is put LSM as #1 in place of Witness Lee, for all practicality these days. A publishing house is the top leader of a network of churches. It's just weird. I recollect the same as Sons to Glory!. I believe "the co-workers" came about as a term initially to describe the brothers who were around Witness Lee when he was alive. They were "co-working" with Witness Lee, and so they became "the co-workers". Even their terminology has to do with relationship to Witness Lee. If you look through the Bible, though, the Greek for co-worker is used in a much broader sense and in a few cases includes couples and sisters. But the reason for shiftiness (and I'll stop on this point), is so they can't be held accountable. In the Bible, the apostles were named, openly identified themselves as such, and openly known. And the saints in the church were charged to watch out for wolves and false prophets, and were told to test them and were commended for identifying false apostles, etc. Well......it's kind of hard to test and discern and hold people to a standard if they won't even identify who they are.....right? On that same PR site I mentioned earlier, the co-workers claim to be apostles, and then call it "unbiblical" to ask for a list of the co-workers. It actually couldn't be more biblical, given that the apostles are listed out one by one in the Bible itself. It's all just a contradictory, unscriptural mess that they've propagated. I personally think 95% of the problems in the local church stem from the upper echelons of the leadership. Anyway. You got me going. Sorry for the long post. Hope this is helpful as a start. Trapped |
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09-17-2020, 07:42 AM
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#5 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,654
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
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 The Recovery reeks because of this point: Its leaders have not, cannot, and will not be held accountable. This is the impetus for many of their false teachings, and the widespread damages which have resulted over the years. Of course, those inside of the Recovery are constantly reminded that these "storms" were actually "rebellions" or "conspiracies" orchestrated by ambitious men. Nothing could be further from the truth. All of these so-called "ambitious" men, throughout the 100 year history of the Recovery, were only men of God calling for accountability in the ministry. In a sense they were merely whistle-blowers calling for accountability. The most insidious (and probably the root of all evil) of these false teachings is the concept of "deputy authority" vested in one man. Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Both within the church and without. That's why Jesus so often warned the disciples about wanting to be great, and lording it over others. If you think that I am perhaps a little off-base, let me encourage you to read church history and see the death and destruction wrought by the Popery on the entire Western world for more than a Millennium. Think about it: If the Pope is the actual Vicar of Christ on earth, how can he make a mistake, and how can he ever be held accountable? If Nee and Lee and "Brothers We" are actually the "Ministers of the Age," (MOTA's) raised up by the Lord Himself, how can they be held accountable? How did it get this way? Why has history repeated itself? What are these same falsehoods thrust upon Catholics, thrust upon the LC's, thrust upon our Brethren forebears under J.N.Darby, and thrust upon so many other congregations and aberrant sects throughout the church age? This teaching of deputy authority, under diverse terminologies for two millennia, is a root of evil. It is the legal mandate of those who lust for power. It has the ability to subdue mountains of verses in the New Testament which should serve to negate it. In a nutshell, it is the application of Moses (and Noah secondarily related to accountability) as a type of any N.T. minister. Yes, Moses is a type of Christ, and Christ alone, but never another minister. Moses told us this in Deut. 18.15-19. Jesus regularly connected Himself with Moses. (e.g. John 5.46-47) Peter verified this in Acts 3.22-23. Paul confirmed this in Hebrews chapter 3. Moses brought us the Old Covenant and built God's house in type, Jesus brought us the New Covenant and built God's house in reality. Kings David and Solomon are also incredible types of Christ. God has used them, though flawed in many ways, to reveal His Son to us. Yet, never once did the N.T. ascribe their kingly authority to anyone but Christ Himself, the real King, the eternal King, the Judge of all, who alone is worthy of all glory and honor. Apart from Him, all other ministers in the church, including the apostles, are nothing. (Luke 17.10)
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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09-17-2020, 03:32 PM
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#6 |
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Member
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 118
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Appreciate all the responses so far (Ohio/trapped/glory). Gave me alot of info I did not have before. Feel free to expand your input on my other questions and for anyone new to this thread- join right in.
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09-19-2020, 12:43 PM
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#7 | |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 1,523
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
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As an example, it's not uncommon for facial hair to be frowned upon in legalistic churches. That's the overarching "typical behavior". But the particular specific for the LC is, say, that Witness Lee said that when he came to America and saw Americans with beards he didn't know if the men were humans or demons. That's the Witness Lee twist on the beard thing. And they take it so far as to say that if you are serving on campus or in the leadership, it's inappropriate for you to have a beard or facial hair. Like, it is not allowed. Talk about a commandment of men rather than of God! The essential code of conduct is: DON'T DO ANYTHING WITHOUT PERMISSION AND FELLOWSHIP!!! Other things that make the LC members different: -no Christmas -no Easter -for some, no birthdays, or greatly reduced emphasis on birthdays -movie theaters have been problematic -I know jeans are a problem for some -they have a unique and strange vernacular among themselves which bleeds into conversations with non-LC people sometimes -ultra submissive to so-called "authority" -close their minds to contradictory information -live in their own bubble trying to get others into their bubble -withdrawal from healthy interaction with other believers not in the LC, there can actually be a fear there even -for some, fear of extravagance or appearing too worldly (yes, we should take care of that kind of thing in the extreme, but I think it's too much in the LC.....for example, Jo Casteel in her FB letter mentioned something about wearing sparkly shirts and worrying it would stumble LCers) -fear of questioning, noticing problems, speaking up about observed sin, identifying wrong teachings, rocking the boat in general -holding conflicting views simultaneously and constructing mental barriers to not have to deal with it I know others can fill this out much better, but that's what immediately came to my mind. (Thanks, Ohio, for picking up where I left off on that other post!) Trapped |
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09-19-2020, 05:47 PM
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#8 |
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Member
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 118
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Thanks again for all the responses, a quick question though. Is it ok if i PM some of you for more questions? I just dont think it will be necessary to make a bunch of thread every time I have a concerning questions. But I def will make some new threads in the future, (hopefully one that isnt a 1000 word Original Post like this one =).
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09-19-2020, 09:26 PM
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#9 | ||
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 3,508
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
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As you get to be high school and college age it was common to hear the phrase from a brother's perspective, "you don't get into a relationship until you're ready to get married." How do you know when that time is? If you even dare to speak to a single sister, protocol has been broken. Your character within the church becomes questionable. It wasn't until the 1990's it became more common to find one's spouse outside the local church fellowship. It wasn't until facebook did I realize other former church kids, single sisters had the same attitude towards single brothers that single brothers had towards single sisters. There's a facade in the churchlife pretending to be spiritual and on fire for the ministry even if you're not. Brothers want to marry a normal sister and sisters want to marry a normal brother. Someone you can grow and laugh with. As it was there was such a distance for brothers and sisters to know each other as persons, they became socially dysfunctional towards the other gender. You said, Quote:
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"Even a neutral has a right to take account of facts, even a neutral cannot be asked to close his mind or close his conscience."- Franklin D. Roosevelt |
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09-19-2020, 09:30 PM
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#10 |
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 3,508
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Another question I had for many years, is to get an honest answer without the hemhawing "I feel to honor the feeling of the Body" type of response.
Brothers and sisters, do you really feel the quarantined leading brothers were trying to "takeover the recovery"?
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"Even a neutral has a right to take account of facts, even a neutral cannot be asked to close his mind or close his conscience."- Franklin D. Roosevelt |
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09-19-2020, 09:32 PM
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#11 | |
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 3,508
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
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"Even a neutral has a right to take account of facts, even a neutral cannot be asked to close his mind or close his conscience."- Franklin D. Roosevelt |
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09-19-2020, 09:40 PM
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#12 | |
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 3,508
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Quote:
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"Even a neutral has a right to take account of facts, even a neutral cannot be asked to close his mind or close his conscience."- Franklin D. Roosevelt |
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09-19-2020, 09:47 PM
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#13 | |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 1,523
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
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I tried to tell elders that young people are harmed by being told "no no no no no no no no" in every meeting their whole life and it is never balanced out with any kind of meeting where they are told "okay....now's ok". The elders were not church kids themselves, and they didn't seem to understand the problem. You don't get into a relationship until you're read to get married?? How are you supposed to have any idea of who you'd like to be in a relationship with if you can't interact with them in a normal way? In the LC it's like you've got to break their protocol to have a hope of getting married. I can't stand what they've done to people. |
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09-19-2020, 09:51 PM
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#14 | |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 1,523
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
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It's up to you whether to PM or post publicly of course, but there are people reading and there is a lot of value to questions and thoughts and answers and musings happening publicly where others can read them. It's something that can't happen in the LC - freely throwing around Qs & As and handling things in the light - and that's the value of this place in contrast. |
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09-20-2020, 07:20 AM
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#15 | |
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Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 2,614
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
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LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now Praise the Lord - HE'S GOT THIS! |
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09-20-2020, 06:06 PM
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#16 |
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Member
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 118
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Thanks for all the support all of you, well as requested I will definitely ask more questions that I would like insight on. (sorry for the typos/errors, it is a long post).
5. Why do elders/full timers try to find out every aspect of your livelihood. From my own experience and observed happening to other brothers recently recruited from college campuses, it seems as though they try to ask why you do certain things such as activities outside of the local churches. Either that may be hanging out with friends outside the LC, or going to social events/hobbies. They seem almost skeptical/cynical of your lifestyle outside of the local churches. They are subtle about it to, they try to fish around for the information they desire but trying to beat around the bush in asking what you do and why you do it. It appears kind of invasive, like do how would they like it if someone questioned every aspect of the livelihood outside of the Local Churches. IDK if this is an east coast thing with the local churches (where in from), or just a general thing they do for whatever reason. 6. Another observation I made is how they seem very persistent in getting certain brothers (college age), to go live in a brothers house. I don't this to be necessarily negative but they have a strong emphasis on accomplishing this. I guess the concerning thing is that, why are they so persistent in pulling people away from their already established living situation (dorms/apartments/living with parents). Its as if they are afraid of something and that "something" can be solved by putting brothers in a brothers house. Like I said, cant really have a hard opinion on this without knowing more info. I know that a brothers house has a lot of restrictions that may or may not be too controlling depending on the person. But I feel that this has a strong correlation to something, I just don't know it (hopefully you all do). 6.5- A side about brothers house, what I do observe is that it is definitely not suited for everybody and I see brothers who have stagnant growth in life and responsibilities as a man, due to the restrictions of the brothers house and the cheap comfort that it brings (low cost of living), also were talking about men not only college age but all the way into their thirties). Do local church elders even care about the growth and progression of life of brothers or the only thing relevant is their "spiritual growth" and fellowship. I honestly think that the actions/pressures of the local churches have either unintended or in their eyes "trivial" consequences for lots of people they to usher into their customs. 7. Full time training- I read some post about how the Local Churches try to push students to go to the full time training but some things about it does not make sense to me. There are brothers/sisters who go to the full time training but are not full timers. So they basically enter the job market with a 2 year job gap. Did they chose not to pursue full timing or where there not enough positions available? Why would someone go through years of college+ internships and to throw all away for a 2 year job gap and no full time position in the church. Wouldn't just be more practical for lots of brothers/sisters to just pursue their careers and move on with their lives. It seems to me this "training" just hindered their lives greatly (those who did not become full timers). 8. Tithing/- This is something that has a problem with all religious institutions but for the local churches- I want to chime in. I remember I was at a conference (east coast), and the way the full timer/ responsible one (idk his position but he was something in terms of authority). Was giving a story about how a brother worked his way up to making good money and he gave it all away except for the needed amount to survive. He then said with a powerful and grasping voice- GIVE YOUR MONEY TO GOD, Money is evil except for putting it towards God (Like God himself needs money -_-). (Notice how he says give money to God, good word choice to captivate people and it sounds a lot better than saying please give money to the church for necessary expenses). The people attending the conference shouted Amen and were robust about his words and were praising him. I was thinking to my self- you took so much of this mans money and didn't even think about his personal well being such as retirement savings and other cost of living adjustments. So how much action does the Local Churches have into individual contribution for tithing. Do they force/pressure you for income verification and try to compromise with you on how to much to donate. Or are they lax and simply humbly request donations for church maintenance. I understand money is necessary for needed funds/expenses, but honestly there are certain ways to not go about it that can be deem unethical: selling LSM products in church, and being deceptive with words. 8.5- Mentality- as told in question 8 with the story of the conference attendants mindlessly shouting amen and just praising anything a brother with authority says. I have been to different churches growing up and there are numerous times a pastor will give his own personal opinion knowing the consequences of difference in thought within believers- in which you get negative stares, awkward silence, and a lack amens. This is a part of church life and it shows the different chain of thoughts and personal beliefs we humans have. But brothers, especially elders and responsible ones (basically any brother with any sort of authority). Will speak and say something bizarre strange, or just extremely unusual, it is almost if the local church members are just ingrained just yell amen and agree with utmost authority towards the brother. I emphasize "brothers", because sometimes when sisters offer a different/unpopular opinion- there is hardly any amen and even objection to the comment the sister made. But for leading brothers- the situation reminds me of people with no sense of independence of thought just mindlessly agreeing and never objecting. Is this a façade, and people do think differently and disagree but due to fear- never speak out in any form. Or are they really ingrained to the system crafted by the local churches. Or perhaps, not to be condescending- these are the people the local churches are looking for ("sheep" needing to be taken care of). All these things I have just observed from my current time with the local churches, and I know possibly many more newcomers to the LC (perhaps even LC grown people), have noticed similar things as I- just not have spoken about it to local church members. There is a huge commitment rate ranging between those who grew up in Local churches and those who came in as young adults (me). Obviously those who grew up outside the local churches- bring with them there experiences and knowledge of understanding outside of the local churches and bring them in. That is why a lot of long term Local Church members (especially Young LC kids/teens/adults), I believe are not even aware of this "mentality" that they have in relations towards the local church or maybe have been taught for so long to dismiss it. Regardless, this concludes my second set of questions for the local churches. Its crazy how much I have from just basic observations from an outside perspective (didn't grow up in LC). Feel free to answer and give me input from any of my questions/points. |
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09-21-2020, 11:32 AM
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#17 |
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Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 2,614
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Here's my reply to your questions #5-8.
5. They are probably thinking they are shepherding you and protecting you. However, beyond a basic level, it is an intrusion in my book and and attempt to control. Brothers I'm with now, for instance, don't really care to know all my current details, and visa versa. Nobody's hiding anything, but being a busy-body is overly controlling, and is of the flesh. If you invited someone to help you or to provide a level of accountability, well that's different. But where I am now, often brothers might just say, "Let's take it to the Lord" if someone was going on in too much detail about their private life issues. 6. Nothing wrong with saints living together, but someone pressuring a person is (again) controlling and of the flesh. I know they would probably say it's a healthy thing for young people to be together for a level of accountability, but . . . The flesh doing these things amounts to zero, and can cause problems. In my book, better for the Anointing within to be allowed to work in a younger person. So a little fellowship and gentle guidance is one thing, but I think you're talking about overt pressure. 7. Can't speak regarding the full-time training thing, but about everything I've heard on here in several discussions, it all sounds legalistic and controlling. And ultimately the fruit of the Spirit doesn't appear to be there as a result of this type of training. 8. I was never forced or pressured much to tithe. To me it's totally freewill, and you are right that many groups push this in an unbiblical way I think. At the least, it's an Old Covenant practice. Think about it, saying you should give at least 10% . . . this smacks of the law - nothing like this in the New Testament. Let the Anointing guide you as far as giving your money, time and caring for others is concerned! 8.5 My opinion is it is a classic groupthink thing. You fall in with a certain group and their norms, and after going along with something a while, it's just easy to nod and agree. And then, over time, to go against whatever seems doubly hard. Hope that helps and I'm sure others will jump in.
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LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now Praise the Lord - HE'S GOT THIS! |
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09-21-2020, 07:04 PM
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#18 |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 1,523
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
5. LOL....I can think of a few possibilities. One is that they are trained to "show an interest in people". The other is to see how "good" of a "good building material" you are. Another is that it's classic lovebombing - show an interest in people, what they do, why they do it.....but you caught on that it's subtle and invasive.....because the reason isn't really grounded in love; it's grounded in trying to catch you for "the Lord's recovery movement of Witness Lee".
6. They are afraid that outside influences will draw those brothers away. If you can keep them grouped together all the time, then there are less outsiders to show how weird the bubble is. The church life de facto becomes their actual life. It's less effort to catch a group of fish than one fish at a time. Etc. etc. But what I've observed happens when you do this with a group of brothers is that you produce a ...... weird group of brothers. The word "bro" takes on a whole new level of meaning. Groups of brothers create their own vernacular and think the whole world revolves around the "hilarious" language they've come up with. Bro-ing it up. It's ultimately self-facing, inward, self-centered behavior. There's nothing to balance them out. And the serving ones encourage it because it's an easy pot of fish to keep an eye on (or whatever.....poor metaphor on my part). 6 1/2. I don't know what is going on inside elders' heads or hearts. For reals. It's a head scratcher. They can be Jekylls and Hydes, man. 7. The FTT is sold as "two years in the full-time training is equivalent to twenty years in the church". It's sold as a well-known footnote goes: "throughout the past twenty centuries, thousands of precious lives, heart treasures, high positions, and golden futures have been “wasted” upon the Lord Jesus." Trainees think they are "presenting their bodies which is their reasonable service". So to sacrifice two years is, in their minds, a glory. But they're not presenting their bodies to the Lord, it's to Witness Lee's indoctrination camp. Their sacrifice is on the wrong altar. I think as the FTT sought after it's accreditation, graduates could pass it off as something like "continuing education" or "schooling" or whatever. It can appear on a resume less like a weird generic "Bible school" and more like "Bible Truth and Church Service Training", which is what the FTTA site says. Many full-timers, as they near graduation, fling themselves on "the brothers" to determine what they should do. Some trainees already have a plan and they stick to it. Some decide for themselves. Some wait for "the fellowship" and follow it no matter what. It varies. But it's all done in an environment of "undue influence". Often times the elders honor the "feeling" of graduates who think for themselves. But some graduates become true milquetoasts, laying themselves as sacrifices on the altar of the elders, wanting to remain "under the covering". It's weird. I'll have to stop there for now. Trapped |
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09-22-2020, 06:23 PM
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#19 |
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Member
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 118
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Ill say it again, thank you for all your responses and I do indeed have more questions. (Again sorry for typos, it is a long post). I understand I am swinging in with the questions and I apologize if its a lot but feel free to take a bit of time). I only had like 2 questions initially, but more popped up the more I typed. There is a lot of questions to answer here so if you only have time to answer a couple- I think questions 14-14.5 are the synopsis of all the thoughts and questions I had in this thread so I guess if you had to chose a couple its definitely 14-14.5. Otherwise feel free to answer a bunch of them or even all of them. I think I poured out all I had of the local churches so far in this thread.
9. The Objective of the church- From what I have seen and heard so far the Local churches are trying to expand and meet a quota of church members not only in numbers but also demographics. Then why keep this idea of only college age kids being "good building material". Im not saying go find all the homeless drug addicts in the world and transform their lives (very virtuous but difficult...), but expand the horizon and get people from all portions of your city. If they like the local church they will stay and perhaps even bring people they know and the church will grow. They say things like "All inclusive Christ", but exclude a lot of people on discrimination of character it seems to me. There is reason the Baptist, Methodist, Pentecostals are all huge in numbers due to their persistence of pursuing people of all sorts. I mean who even knows of the Local Churches in the general public? In fact, why do they try so hard to hide who they are as a church, whether its going under the alias Christians on campus, or hiding lee material(from new college students), and diverging from explaining their practices and customs (shouting, amen, recovery footnotes, legalism, etc? Just be honest with you are, and the people who are not with it will leave and those are will stay. That way you don't have people leaving en masse out after figuring out that what they thought initially was not the reality. They make it so hard to expand on their wishes without realizing that changing will be needed to do so. Of course they might want to keep it small and controlled because of leaks they are afraid they cant patch up (Titus Chu). 9.5- Care - is there really a pyramid system of the amount of care LC members have towards certain brothers/sisters. I know obviously that college students are love bombed due to them being their ideal recruits but beyond that where does it go? I ask this because I notice a couple things. First is the certain comments that elders/responsible ones make about other brothers and its revealing of how they think vs how they "appear". You know those brothers I mentioned in question 4.5 (1st post), those are the ones getting side comments on their age and judgement on their life. I wrote so much on question 4.5 cause its just frustrating on how devoted some of these brothers are to the church and in return they are not really cared about (deemed not worthy for consistent invites for home meetings/gatherings, not taken seriously for moving in the next step forward in life). I am not sure if this is just an outlier from what I witnessed or is it a common thing throughout the Local Churches. There are those who want to work out of college and trust me when they share their excitement for getting the job they want after studying hard for years- the Amens become dead silent in the meetings (prob cause no FTT). 9.8-The questions previously asked about LC members trying to gather random pieces of info about me and testing whether I am willing to commit to their norms from the get-go (brothers house/ FTT commitment). Is it all just to see how much I am worth in terms of care/appreciation? I know this sounds distrustful and skeptical but after the testimonies I have seen and what I have observed. I'm on the verge of thinking there truly is some sort of unspoken or privately spoken consensus on who is worth what. Does this whole situation of appearing "inferior" revolve around the idea of "building material". - I know question 9 is broken into many parts but I guess the simple answer im looking for is- What are the different groups of people do Local Church see and categorize? Is it as simple as College+FTT+Witness lee indoctrination= Top of pyramid, and everyone else is below with little indifference between the non FTT people. Or does it get complicated depending on other factors. 10. Goal of FTT- Is the goal of FTT solely produce Full timers and outreach for the local churches. Or is there an ulterior motive to get as much people as possible for Witness Lee doctrine to be ingrained and there for LSM/Anaheim to have full ideological control? Seeing what happened to Titus chu, I'm thinking control is of higher priority than mass expansion. 11. History/Events- Titus Chu/Midwest vs Anaheim, what is the current state of the local churches of America. Are they subject to Anaheim or is there a rift between certain regions on who to follow? How does the local churches throughout the regions react to an excommunication of a big name person such as Titus? Do they contest in uproar or pretend nothing happened? 11.5-. Excommunication (don't care about the word they have for it)- How does one qualify for excommunication? Can a regular attendee with no authority/power be excommunicated or is the process for excommunication big name people such as Titus Chu, or John Ingalls? Is it simply the consistently challenging Witness Lee content? I hear they like to use the word "ambitious"- How does one qualify for being ambitious? How is excommunication enforced- are you banned from your current city or perhaps region, maybe even world? Do they give information to every local church, in order to keep you out? 12. Contradiction- How does the LC practice their norms/customs while pretending to be the pinnacle of Christianity. 1. Shouting and Chanting Lord Jesus, and repeating verses over and over verbatim (goes against Matthew Chapter 6), Discriminately choosing who to accept/recruit over who they currently are and not what they can be (goes against Jesus character completely, story of Sumerian woman, healing the sick, blessing the poor). The idea of Killing the soul life- while things like Daystar scandal, throwing max under the bus, recycled LSM content being sold in church for profit ( Goes against Matthew 21), Philip Lee( disgusting man). I can only imagine just how much harder it was for the women to speak up against him (Philip lee) since seeing how sisters are at the bottom of the totem pole (In the local churches) and at that time, Philip lee had high position along with "Caesar" lee protecting him. They always bash the Roman rulers but I got to say "Caesar lee" is definitely up there when compared to the most control seeking Roman rulers (might as well call him "Caesar" by the way he is portrayed and treated). I mean they always bash other churches for their imperfections, how about they look at themselves (Matthew 7:5). Nothing is perfect but darn they hold themselves as the pinnacle of Christianity and it makes no sense. Btw im talking about the people who are aware of these events and still pretend their high and mighty. Now that I think about I have another question that just spurred out of no where. 13. What percentage of Local church people know of the ugly side of LC history : Anaheim in its prime time years of chaos- 1980s, Titus Chu excommunication/Midwest split, Daystar, etc. These are things I know just from these forums and other sources. Who knows other things that happened that went under the rug. As time goes on and the people who witnessed and experienced all this history in person- pass on. Will these things even be known outside of the internet? 50 years from now, will the dark history of the LC be flowing around the local churches in these minds that have been told this info one way or another. Or just contained on the internet for the curious ones who come across the info. 14. I got to be honest the average full timer/elder is honestly a nice person who just wants to do what they believe is "right" in the eyes of God. But what I just realized after typing all this is that the very brief answer to all my questions is Witness Lee. Witness Lee is the source for all the problems with the local churches. Whether its: how they look down on other Christians, only focus on college kids cause of "building material", have complete control over all localities like a "Caesar" having control over his provinces. In conferences they always talk about the "evil" Roman empire and how the roman empire lives on today. I know this seems bold to say this- Well look at the local churches: Localities= provinces, capital= Anaheim, anyone who speaks back against "Caesar" Lee is discarded, well I guess now the Caesars are the one who runs LSM (I guess Ron Kangas at this point has taken over the throne, doubt there is anyone above the mad king Ron currently). This man said Witness Lee is the best apostle since Paul and his works has surpassed men like Thomas Aquinas and John Wesley. Witness Lee is a failure/swindler/hustler, whose biggest accomplishment was maintaining but unfortunately degrading the local churches of Watchman Nee. How are you going to compare him to John Wesley and Thomas Aquinas? 14.5- If the local churches want to grow to what they dream upon (the size of the Baptist, Methodist, Pentecostals,), they have to get rid of witness lee doctrine. Witness Lee, even after his passing- is holding them back so much and I do not even know if they realize it. His teachings/methods/ideology of what the local churches should be, is the reason the local churches will never appear to be more than a cult that has to hide under an alias on college campuses and put a veil over their teachings/beliefs cause they know of the consequences of immediately putting witness lee doctrine out there. If you have to put so much effort hiding who you truly are ( college campus deception tactics)- maybe what you are is the problem. Just like a person can change who they are so can the local churches. I love the format of the local churches, the circling and everyone speaking and giving their thoughts. But you cant even do that properly- you have to kiss butt to witness lee revival books and have an interpretation that follows witness lee footnotes. Get rid of lee and you will be free. The Truth Will Make You Free John 8:31-32, 31 So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32 and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” Christ is the source of truth and freedom not witness lee. It cant be both ways, if you want to remain and "exclusive low end cult" then keep following "Caesar" lee. If you want to achieve a dream of unity and truth follow Christ. |
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09-23-2020, 09:51 AM
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#20 |
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Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 2,614
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Seems like I'm always the first to respond to your questions, so here goes:
9+. Just this week another brother and I were mussing about the "good building material" (GBM) idea. It's not a good one. This started, I think, in the 80s. Someone who was a GBM was either in college or had a (preferably) advanced degree. They preferably would have a good job, or definite good income potential. They should not have apparent baggage, like some outward issue of sin or whatever. In my book, it is so much silliness! What does scripture say? "Brothers, consider the time of your calling: Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were powerful; not many were of noble birth. But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong.…" (1 Cor 1:26-27). Does God need our wise insights to build His dwelling place? No - He just needs people who will look to Him! 10. Again, I can't speak much to the FTT . . . but, yes, they do want to get people steeped in all things WL. 11. Bro Ohio can probably speak with the most knowledge of Titus, et. al. My opinion is most would just go along with it (quarantine, excommunication, etc.), and maybe hope they're not next.  11.5 "How does one qualify for excommunication?" This question is actually a little amusing to me - "how does one qualify" like it was a prize! Any way, I have knowledge I can convey of one such incident. Bill Freeman was a prominent elder in the LC in the 1970s. He was well versed in the word and Greek. With help from those in his locality, he published various writings and had a radio broadcast. In the mid-80s, he was basically ousted because he wouldn't stop these "extra-LSM" activities, come fully under the headship of WL/LSM and sign a document declaring this. A couple hundred saints left with him as a result. (FYI - the gathering I'm with now is indirectly a result of this incidence) 12. All I can generally respond to here is to say the church in Laodicea thought they had it all. They thought they were rich and had no need, and their pride blinded them. The LC is full of fleshly elitism and pride and, sorry to say, they have no awareness of it. 13. I don't know about this. When I was in the LC, I just did my best not to focus on these things, because it just had to be something of a lie of the enemy, or at least simply a distraction (and that's what others said). Yes, every group has its things, because we all still have the flesh. But there is being honest, upfront and graciously seeking forgiveness; and then there is hiding it, which is the flesh trying to preserve itself and face. WL and the LC did the latter and through this neglect, it has become a festering wound affecting many. 14+. WL had much to be ashamed of. You will find many on here that might even say he was the right hand of Satan himself. I am not one of these. My opinion is that some on this forum would do well to forgive brother Lee and move on. (Of course, this forum exists to warn people and educate them regarding the abuses of WL/LSM/LC, and to provide a place to air related things with one another.) I have often said that I praise the Lord He lead me to the LC in the early 70s, and I also praise Him He lead me back out of it in the late 80s! I have moved on from WL's teachings, as I find many to be hindering in my walk with Christ. But at the end of his life, bro Lee stated that mistakes were made and that love was missing. He urged the saints not to shun other Christians. I choose to take his words at that time at face value. The Lord will be the judge of his words. However, the current LC leadership appears to have chosen to ignore his final words made in public. And they continue to promote the practice of only WL all the time. The Lord will judge their actions as well. Hope that all makes good sense!
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LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now Praise the Lord - HE'S GOT THIS! |
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09-23-2020, 07:02 PM
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#21 | ||
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Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,654
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Jigsaw, your questions here are far too general, so my limited response also will be general.
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Anaheim uses strong information control to influence its people. It's like watching CNN -- everything you hear about Trump is bad, and all the bad things about Biden will never be told. Thus it was with Titus. Everything they hear is bad, and nothing bad about LSM will be told. You will be seriously warned about watching any other "channel" for your news. Quote:
Being "ambitious" is a joke. If we are not "ambitious" we would not get out of bed in the morning. Was not W. Lee one of the most ambitious ones around? Lee used this accusation to smear his former co-workers like Ingalls and Titus. Lee himself was extremely ambitious for power, and was constantly afraid that his power was in jeopardy.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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09-23-2020, 10:46 PM
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#22 | |
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Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 61
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
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It goes 1. Wife of... in order of who they are wife too (people always look up to the senior co-workers wives) 2. All other married sisters 3. Unmarried sisters who are full time 4. All other unmarried sisters |
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09-23-2020, 10:58 PM
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#23 | |
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Member
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 61
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
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But when I got there, I was just like "Is this what overcoming is?" It is the most cultlike experience I have ever been in. You don't really have any say in what you do with your time, what you eat, when you sleep. Everything is scheduled and decided for you. But back to your question. I did not do the full two years for health reasons, but from my observation, some people are pressured into serving full time. Some people are discouraged from serving full time and told they would better "serve" by getting a full time job. No idea who they decide which is which. My gap between studying and getting a job has not impacted my career, but it was not the full 2 years and my skillsets are in high demand. Some peole get jobs ok and others struggle. |
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09-24-2020, 03:21 PM
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#24 |
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Member
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 118
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Thank you all for the responses in this thread I will like to reply to all you in this single post.
To Sons of Glory- Thank you for all your posts and insight. What I want to address specifically is your last words on Lee and the idea of the faults we all have. I was very harsh on my posts about witness lee (14-14.5), and at the time of the post I was a little tense and it did bring the judgmental side of me. I do wholeheartedly agree we are all imperfect and if we were in the position of power witness lee had who knows if we would have done the same or not. Many people in the bible are loved in the eyes of God even with all their faults such as: David, Jonah, Peter, Paul, Jacob, and Samson. The same applies to everybody else even witness lee. I have no personal hatred for Lee as I have never even meet the man and his flaws such as avarice and desire for power can easily be found in everybody just as much as him. I guess my disappointment and frustration just came with the precedence he has established in the local churches. Its like people cant have their own opinion, interpretation, even their own freedom of thought. There is more footnotes then scripture in the recovery. In the book of the word of God- The words of an ordinary man consumes more then the word of God. Im not sure if he intended for himself to have such authority in these churches and whether he wishes this was the outcome. I know Lee has published many letters apologizing for his flaws. But many people speak on their faults but never act upon their forgoing actions to rectify them. I don't condemn the man as I sure as heck do not have the power or authority to decide the fate of anybody. But I do have the right and more importantly "will" to speak back in some way. Regardless its fine if people read the works of lee, as he and like many other Christian writers have their thoughts and opinions on theology, philosophy, and the practice of religion. Its also fine if you don't want to read witness lee or only want to read witness lee, people should have the freedom to do as they please in regards to this. The problem is the lack of freedom in the Local Churches in regards to pursuit of knowledge and information. Bless to your journey in the life of pursuit of Christ Sons of Glory. Ohio- First I will to state that my questions are "general" cause unfortunately Its not like anybody has given me "details" in regards to my questions. But that is trivial compared to my next point. Ohio, old timers such as you and SonsofGlory are very important, perhaps more important than you think. There significance of a "living memory" is more precious then what people give credit for. Yes there are lots of sources online that I can read but its not the same as having the words of a person who has lived through the experiences I myself could not. I have luckily spoken to a few ww2 vets and people part of the civil rights movement (60s). Yes there is a tremendous amount of writings detailing's these events in history. Mind my language- But ill be damned by not taking the opportunity to hear from the purest of all primary sources of historical events (people who were there firs handedly). As time move on all ww2 will be long gone and those from the civil rights movement of the 60s, so will those who grew up in the Golden decade of Economic flourishment of the 50s, and the jungle fighters of the Vietnam war. There is a value for a "living memory" Ohio, so it does mean a lot to me to hear your experience. God bless your journey in the life of Christ Ohio. Terry- I am glad that you were able to find happiness in life and hope your wife and three kids are doing great. Every person should have the right to pursue the joys and experiences that supplies a man not for the sake of satisfying himself with a means to no end but- with greater purpose of living for a sake that stretches beyond the individual man- that is the creation of families, and it is how the followers of Christ grow in this world. Anyone us reading this that is struggling with this- don't let anyone dictate whether you have the basic right to pursue this- be your own person and take dose of self reliance and responsibility to grow. Christ does not want to see you digress and be stagnant in life but to prosper in his image. Bless your journey in life of the pursuit of Christ Terry. Trapped- I really appreciate all you said and actually, I caught your post quiet frequently on these forums when I was lurking on here for a bit, before being motivated to create an account. I hope you were able to move forward in life and not be shunned for being human and having emotions that anybody has and should be pursued with control and diligence but not by negligence and defiance of truth and reality (as taught by the local churches). Bless your journey in the life of the pursuit of Christ Trapped. Clever Sister- Thank you for your posts on the FTT. I am glad you left something that was just destroying your mind and soul and that your life is doing better now that your living the life you want to live. Life is already difficult enough cause of the inevitable hardships, no need to live on path that destroys all the joy you have left. Glad you recovered and bless you on your journey in life in the pursuit of Christ. In case some of you wont being viewing this thread again, I will PM you personally and let you know my appreciate. It really does mean a lot for all of you to contribute to this thread. - This concludes my introduction post/questions to the local churches. I will know move on to post in other threads and be active on these forums (but most likely still reply to post on this thread). Nice meeting yall and hope to have more discussions in the future. |
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09-24-2020, 05:23 PM
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#25 |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,654
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Jigsaw, have you read John Ingalls book Speaking the Truth in Love?
That account of events was a life changer for me. Answered so many questions, the chief one being, "how could something so good become so bad?" If you have specific questions about the book, some of us could answer them. These events occurred in the late 80's but most of the Midwest LC's never learned what really happened until the quarantine of Titus 15 years afterwards. Sadly, Titus hid these actual events from the Midwest saints back in the 80's, and then ironically that haunted him in the 00's, since LSM used their so-called pristine image to smear him. Titus long felt he could reform major problems in the Recovery, and definitely was convinced he was the most qualified to lead it, post WL. He is a formidable character, extremely gifted, and in many respects far more spiritual, moral, and upright than the Blendeds. Yet he operates as a demanding general, with dress downs to shame those brothers with him. As a result, he had made many enemies, many of which could have supported him during the quarantine, and completely changed the outcome. After I stepped away to study the Recovery, I had given my best 30 years to, the compilation of negative events of these years compelled me to depart for good. I was part of a system that turned beloved brothers into bullies. I viewed the Recovery in 3 parts. First, the unrighteous and dishonest LSM, covering the sinful and smearing the reformers. Second, the gifted but abusive TC, whom no one had the guts, myself included, to stand up to. And thirdly, so many dear and precious brothers and sisters, totally void of the politics infecting the leaders which they followed.
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09-24-2020, 06:39 PM
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#26 | |
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
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09-24-2020, 07:12 PM
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#27 |
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Got a little more time, continuing on with your earlier questions....
8. Tithing - As far as abusive churches go, this one is actually a headscratcher when it comes to the LC, at least for me. It's not uncommon at all for moneygrubbing to be a central part of unhealthy churches.....for them to track if you gave your tithes and offerings, to track the percentage of your income you gave, to tell you if you give your money you will be blessed 10 times over in return (almost in the sense of a literal monetary return on investment), to suggest that when something bad happened to you that it was because you hadn't tithed enough that week, etc..... And yet, with the local church, at least as far as what I've seen, their emphasis on tithes mostly seems to be a little labeled slot in an obscure place on the wall that is largely left up to the conscience of the individual member about what to do. Saints can give anonymous offerings, so keeping some kind of record of who gave and who didn't doesn't work very well. I personally know of no one that had, say, elders go after them giving them a hard time about not tithing at all or not tithing enough. I've got to say, for the most part I appreciate the local church lack of pressure on tithing (I like it better than other church's practice of handing around a "money plate" where everyone can see if you put something in or not. Kinda lame, imho). Except when they would so obviously have a ministry reading or morning revival excerpt specifically on the subject as a kind of "hint hint", but, it seems unreasonable to me for the topic of our money never to come up at all, so even on that front I don't see anything wrong with the issue of how Christians handle their money coming up every now and then. However, what you described in 8.5 (the robust amens without thinking, etc) is just more of the "shut your mind off" atmosphere in the church. Money is not evil; it's the LOVE of money that is the root of all evil. Money is just money. God doesn't need our money; what He wants is for us to have a willing heart that our money be in His hands, just like everything else in our life. For me, if LSM is involved, hang on to your money. If you see another human being in need, God's the boss on that one. 8.5 Mentality - what you described in this one would scream "cult" or "unhealthy church" to anyone who understands the depth to which behavior control can, well, control a person. The saints have been absolutely swimming in "the ministry" for decades. They haven't been taking in anything else, quite literally. This ministry says "even when authority in the church is wrong, they are right". It says "we must submit to deputy authority regardless of right or wrong". It has cliches like "we just say 'amen' to the brothers" and "I just have to be one with the brothers". They think that whatever is spoken, if it is from the ministry, is simply not up for question. It literally doesn't occur to them to doubt what Lee says. That's not the framework in the local church. And a lot of the local church activity can be done while shutting your mind off. For example, you don't have to actually listen to WHAT is being prayed in order to know when you should chime in and say "ameeeeennn", because there is a repetitive cadence to the prayers that you have swung back and forth to for years and years. Same with prophesying. People sharing often have a particular cadence, a lilt, a tone, etc. You can say "amen" without actually having turned the ignition key of your mind on to discern whether what is coming from the mouth of an authority and has the "taste" of the ministry is actually from the Bible! Paul commended the Bereans for comparing what he said to the Scriptures. The local church would have your hide if you compared the ministry to the Scriptures and spoke up about real discrepancies. Is it a facade? Do they think differently or are they ingrained? I think the answer varies by person. I personally can think of some people who truly are ingrained. They just take whatever "the brothers" say without any personal responsibility to test it. But I can also think of some people who do think differently in hushed tones, and then they will turn around and bow their head before the co-workers and go totally against what they admitted they really think. I know of some leading brothers who call the co-workers things like "Lee-bots", but who when faced with the co-workers will amen everything and live their lives according to what the co-workers say. What's going on there? Yeah, it's fear. Fear fear fear fear fear. And cognitive dissonance. Honestly many saints don't even know they are living in cognitive dissonance, it's become such a permanent part of their life. The big issue with "the church LIFE" is the "life" part. If you make the unthinkable mistake of speaking up, then you are at risk of not only losing your familiar church, but also your LIFE. But the church isn't supposed to be our life. Christ is. That's another area where they went overboard. |
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09-25-2020, 07:58 AM
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#28 | |
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
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LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now Praise the Lord - HE'S GOT THIS! |
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09-25-2020, 05:28 PM
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#29 |
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Trapped- Again thank you for your insight- although it is interesting to see that some Elders have a bad taste for the Coworkers. Please give more info on my questions if you have time
Ohio- Thank you for your knowledge and information- I have searched for that book online but there are no copies for sale in my immediate search. Is that book in circulation? Also could you link a full pdf if available? Sons Of Glory- I agree that the coworkers seem to have diverged from his message simply because they are interested in themselves and their pursuits and Lees old message/precdent doctrine suits their desire for control/power. |
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09-25-2020, 06:57 PM
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#30 | |
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Quote:
The book is here on this forum. But a more readable version is here.
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09-25-2020, 08:23 PM
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#31 |
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Thank you Ohio
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09-25-2020, 09:45 PM
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#32 | |
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
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I would say at this point the local churches aren't even trying to expand but simply to break even.....to stay stagnant. The only thing keeping their numbers from plummeting are the unwitting naive college freshmen they bring in to plug the gap of people draining out numerous other areas. And eventually those college freshmen will be the people draining out the back end. But no one will care because they are no longer college freshmen anymore. The whole thing is depressing. College freshmen are generally 1) vulnerable, 2) alone, 3) naive, 4) reasonably have no background in identifying red flags of aberrant Christian groups. This is why the local church has a chance of getting any of them. The local church can't go out and get people from all portions of their city because those people from the city see them for what they are and run in the other direction. I visited a church (denomination) a few times where it was obvious there was some sort of weekly arrangement to shuttle a sizeable group from a nearby nursing home (or something of the sort) to the sermon every Sunday. A whole section of walkers, wheelchairs, white hair, etc... Would you ever see that in the LC? No way. What "use" would the LC have for these human beings made in the image of God who no longer had the ability to open their homes or ladle out food to college students? Although it generally is not common, I have encountered a handful of people unrelated to the LC who have heard of the LC. Every single one of them had heard bad things. Why are they not honest about who they are? Because they are a personality cult as well as a regular cult! The local churches do literally lose new college kids because they hid Witness Lee from those students who found out later on where the "excerpts" they had been reading were really from, and ran for the hills upon discovering it. And yet, the LC continues to use Lee material and Lee material only. They literally won't learn. They cannot admit that their hyper-focus on Lee is the problem. Lee is the stagnant cistern they continue to draw water from, and they can't figure out why they all have a bacterial infection. The co-workers say "we must be faithful to what we are" and not hide things and they try to implement that principle onto the local churches, but most co-workers are not on the ground on the campuses and have no real clue that "what they are" is the thing that drives people away. The little secret spreading through the grapevine is that the localities with campus clubs that pattern themselves after how "Christianity" does things are attracting and retaining more students than the campus club localities who use and push the ministry. But no one can admit that because it would be taking a jackhammer to the very foundations they are standing on. When you really step back and look at the situation as a whole from a birds eye view, it is just sad and desperately needs the mercies of God to save the dehydrated and starving members stuck in it who have no idea what they've been cheated of. |
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09-26-2020, 02:32 AM
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#33 |
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Oh man trapped coming in with the juicy lengthy post. Keep em coming. We got the weekend just starting to kick off so feel free to keep answering all them questions I got.
Also feel free to chime in on my new threads in the "local churches in the twenty first century" section. |
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09-26-2020, 10:14 AM
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#34 |
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
10. Goal of FTT: I don't know what the goal was when it began, but it seems like the goal has become to produce full-time serving ones to go on campus, to gain new freshmen, keep them for four years, and then funnel them straight to the FTTA to become full-time serving ones who can go on campus to do the same thing. It essentially bypasses the need to give real care to those pesky young church kids that they don't know how to care for.
Basically what has happened is the LC allows Christianity to raise up good kids, and then the LC goes on the college campus and snatches them away from Christianity and takes them for itself. They are not adding much to the kingdom of God.....just moving people around within it. Pretty dumb. 11. History/events: I don't have personal experience with Titus Chu, but if you are a so-called "local church" you are by default subject to Anaheim, at least according to the LC. How do the LC's react to excommunication? Depends again on the person. Some bow their head and believe it's another "storm" and re-commit themselves more fervently to the movement. Some know the Bible enough to know the "reasons" for excommunication are simply koo-koo pants. Some are close enough to the action to see the curtain pulled back on how the co-workers and blended brothers REALLY behave when it comes down to it, and there is an uproar. 11.5 Excommunication: There are a few types of excommunication (or maybe quarantine is the more common LC word). There are larger ones for challenging the ministry, for speaking the truth that it's not the only ministry out there we can follow, for speaking up about the horrifyingly deviant teachings and practices that have arisen in the LC. I think some of these can be further divided into two camps -- the one speaking out is trying to garner his own following, and the one speaking out is NOT trying to. A regular attendee can be told not to meet for, say, reasons of divorce without Biblical grounds, or say, unrepentant adultery or fornication, etc. When that happens they do tend to track whether you try to show up in another locality or at a conference. |
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09-26-2020, 10:27 AM
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#35 |
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Good post again trapped, appreciate all the info. 12-14.5 are probably the most significant portion of these questions. Go on right ahead in full throttle with your answers, and again- thank you for your detailed answers.
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09-27-2020, 01:44 PM
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#36 |
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Coming in here again, if any other people want to chime in, feel free to do so. We have some great insightful post and I would to see more. I might even pop in some more questions as im just starting to notice all the strange things I have seen in the LC for sometime but have blocked out of my mind due to being sucked in by the "love bombing" they do/act so well on.
Also, I hope that this thread answers the questions of other lurkers who have seen what I have seen and would love an explanation without having to post themselves. As I can imagine some people don't want to risk being found out, caught being here. |
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10-03-2020, 09:08 PM
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
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Post LC I met with different churches. One in particular I would have a check ready prior to leaving for Lord's Day services. In transparency there is a willingness to give.
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"Even a neutral has a right to take account of facts, even a neutral cannot be asked to close his mind or close his conscience."- Franklin D. Roosevelt |
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10-05-2020, 05:22 PM
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#38 | |
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
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Sadly, the man referencing seemed to be doing so in an attempt to justify his own problems/indiscretions in that area. 'If greater people than he, had been caught out in this way, then he couldn't be that bad' seemed to be the context that he was setting. That was my impression at that time, so it's all I am able to offer to this question. |
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10-06-2020, 05:03 PM
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#39 |
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
omg, you got to be kidding me. LC always makes fun of the catholic church and their scandals, but the LC has scandals of their own to. The hypocrisy is unbelievable, and at least the catholic church (Pope Francis I know does for sure), is honest and condemns their scandal's and immoral acts.
I would imagine there is a lot more criminal acts done towards women in the Local Churches. They are just in a wired environment and are controlled to such an extent, they probably are just so afraid to speak up. Besides Philip lee, has there been any other Big time controversies/whistleblowers/ speaking out, coming from women who have been mistreated? |
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10-06-2020, 05:30 PM
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#40 | |
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
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John Ingalls' book tells us plainly that Titus Chu knew about Philip Lee's molesting of sisters in Anaheim, one of whom was actually from the Cleveland area. Most elders only knew second-hand that Philip was abusive, and "very difficult to work with." TC knew better, but was complicit with the coverup. WL forced him to choose sides, and he complied. Titus Chu's allegiance and unwavering loyalty to WL, his "spiritual father," prepped the entire region for later disaster. Instead of siding with the truth 30 years ago, TC sided with a man. During the quarantines 15 years ago, it was never about the truth, but which side you were on, and who you were loyal to. That's how it always was in the Recovery.
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10-06-2020, 06:11 PM
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#41 |
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Ohio- That is unfortunate truly, not siding with the truth cost him. I wonder though, where did Titus find his footing after his excommunication? I just searched him up and he still host conferences with an emphasis of the LC style. Is there a locality/church that welcomed him after his excommunication or perhaps a group of churches that believed in his cause, like some sort of faction within the LC system that is pro Titus chu?
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10-06-2020, 08:14 PM
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#42 | |
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Quote:
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...9302#post69302 Nell |
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10-06-2020, 08:24 PM
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#43 | |
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
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The Quarantine served to divide many Midwest LC's. Part of the church siding with Anaheim, and part with Cleveland. That's how divisions always are.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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10-07-2020, 04:10 PM
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#44 |
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
That is good to hear Ohio, wonder how the despots at Anaheim feel about Titus Chu still being accepted. Mad King Kangas must be losing his s**t every time he witnesses a more beloved person being valued and looked up to.
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10-07-2020, 04:25 PM
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#45 |
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Got another question for y'all. I guess I was not done asking questions.
15. Gossip- Gossip is in every church to some extent but in the LC. It's almost feels impossible to have a 1 on 1 conversation with someone. Like there are times when a convo is general and appropriate to share with others. While other times, it's obvious or directly stated to be a personal 1 on 1 conversation, or a bro/locker room vibe convo. It's funny how an LC individual would approach you or in the middle of a conversation- reveal personal info about yourself that you know you have not told them. Knowing darn well only 1 person knew about that piece of info, and unfortunately I have to have a level of distrust for that person I initially told that piece of info. It's like their objective is to spill the beans at all cost. Like do they not have the concept of trust? Maybe this is just my personal experience and I am positive this level of distrust is not exclusive to LC but it's the most tattle tale environment I have seen in the church environment. Are you fellas familiar with my experience? Or is this just a me thing cause they are trying to spread info on me and figure me out? If it is a common trait in the LC, why is it like this? |
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10-07-2020, 05:45 PM
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#46 | |
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
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If there is false witness being borne, that's another matter. Yet again Living Stream Ministry published a book bearing false witness.
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"Even a neutral has a right to take account of facts, even a neutral cannot be asked to close his mind or close his conscience."- Franklin D. Roosevelt |
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10-07-2020, 06:52 PM
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#47 | |
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
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It seems to me that it just comes down to most elders in the LC having zero qualifications or training or learning to do what they do....or what they are supposed to do. For all intents and purposes, elders in any church frequently function as counselors, and real counselors go through actual training and understand the seriousness of spreading around information they shouldn't. But in the LC, elders become elders because they are "positive for the ministry" and submissive to those above them, and can regurgitate the Lee jargon with the most convincing tone, not because they are real Biblical elders. But inside some of them secretly love that they get the inside scoop on all the little secrets of the saints' personal lives. In other words, a chunk of them are wolves. Not there for the genuine care of the flock. Honestly, the whole setup is one big piece of dirt claiming to be the biggest shiniest golden jewel. |
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10-07-2020, 08:49 PM
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#48 | |
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
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The local leaders would seek the Lord for church direction, but inevitably the local leader would announce, "I'll call Titus and fellowship about this." The one calling Titus thus exerted his own authority, being designated as THE local leader, the one qualified to call headquarters. This literally drove me crazy. Not that an outsider could interfere in local decision-making, nor that I personally wanted more say, but the experience of the whole church constantly changing direction based on a single phone call. Nothing was ever built up because we continually went off in new directions with every encounter with Titus. So much for local autonomy, with churches administered by an eldership of brothers. Very few brothers understood what the word "discrete" meant. How many times I thought to myself, "I didn't need to hear all that." Often times this was done under the guise of prayer. Instead of just lifting the saints in prayer, we "needed" to know how to pray, which often included all of the gory details. Then I often lost heart to pray. There was also something that I called, "the law of first complaint." Actually Titus complained once in passing that WL would regularly believe the first person who brought a complaint about another to him. Talk about partiality, the accused party would never even be consulted to defend himself. So Titus was regularly a victim of false accusations by power hungry rivals who brought complaints to Lee. Think about it. Here is the presumed global MOTA in Anaheim and he doesn't even have the basic human decency and discernment to investigate the facts before believing lies. It's no wonder that Titus was regularly slandered by Philip Lee and others. But, did Titus right this wrong in his own region? Of course not. He just repeated the same bad habits he learned from Lee. Without predetermined principles to guide wise counseling, this pattern of "believing the dirt" circulating around just continues unchecked throughout the entire program.
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10-08-2020, 10:40 AM
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#49 | |
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
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I know brothers who have little to nothing of formal training and just do very well in a certain church function, because I think the Lord has given them the gift of that function - as in Eph 4:11. But you are right that it seems the LC, driven to focus so intently on all things WL, usually appoints those who are most loyal to that ministry . . .
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LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now Praise the Lord - HE'S GOT THIS! |
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10-08-2020, 04:40 PM
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#50 | |
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
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How many "franchise" elders and leaders have I met over the years who basically had only two words of wisdom: (1) get married and (2) go to meetings / trainings. In this area, if you send lots of people to Titus' confs and trngs, it's like you score bonus points. Often, they have little concern about what is actually needed or good for the person.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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10-09-2020, 11:47 PM
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#51 |
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
16. Fellowship- How much is fellowship used to dictate the lives of LC members. Do they mandate everyone enter "fellowship" when ever making any life distinction that alters from the LC whatsoever? I have seen alot of recent post and it just seems to me, fellowship is a tool to control, and contain the lives of the LC. Why is it mandatory, for full grown adults to be dictated in their lives when it comes to basic freedoms? Can you just brush off "fElLoWsHiP" and mind your business when it comes to basic life decisions and be forced to base your life decisions on a bunch of idiots or manipulative men who could care less on the value and happiness of your life? I mean these recent posts on this forum just like they want you to be a slave. Is the idea of fellowship just an LC version of the Russian KGB (lol)? They interrogate you in a nice manner and force you to comply and prevent you from pursuing interests and freedoms that can cause just the slightest deviation from LC practices/life. Did this idea of "fElLoWsHiP" also come from "eMpErOr" lee?
I'm sure there are some cases elders/ responsible ones that just want good care for the people they have fellowship with. But from all these post it seems they just want to make sure you are kept in the assembly line of the "eMpErOR lee" factory. |
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10-10-2020, 06:26 PM
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#52 | ||
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
I know you have wanted responses to your questions 12-14.5, and I have a little time to respond to 12-13.
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1. taking scripture out of context (e.g. in teaching "submit to deputy authority in the church whether right or wrong" they use verses that are talking about governmental authority, not church) 2. twisting or misusing scripture (e.g. calling the tree of the knowledge of good and evil "the tree of death" when the Bible never calls it that, but in so doing they equate knowledge, good, and evil with death....and you can see how quickly that kind of teaching can be abused) 3. creating overarching doctrines that sound biblical but are not (e.g. God's economy) 4. using a lot of guilt (e.g. calling people who speak up poisonous or leprous or divisive, or saying they are "on the wrong tree" or "in their mind") 5. thought-stopping cliches designed to shut people up who try to speak up (e.g. "you are on the wrong tree" or "you are in your mind" or "we don't care for right and wrong only life") 6. elitism - looking down on Christians for the very same things they do in a much worse way Aside from something super weird like say, a leader at the top who claims you have to give yourself to him sexually to make it to heaven or something (which thank goodness isn't in the LC), the LC has a solid majority of the characteristics known to be found in abusive churches. What's it all about? Control. But what is the point of the control? Honestly, I can't figure it out. It's almost the opposite of that great verse in Galatians 5: Galatians 5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. In the LC it's almost like the verse says something like this: Leeism 5:1 It is for the sake of control that we control you. Kneel down, then, and submit yourself to deputy authority in the church regardless of right or wrong. When something is SO opposite the Word of God.....where does it come from? The devil. He's the one having a field day in the LC, repeatedly throwing around these abusive tactics to keep the saints in the LC in chains. He's the crafty deceiver, seeking to devour anyone he can. And he has master crafted this kind of system, which is why it traps people in it like sticky fly paper. Quote:
Unless something like "the FB letter" happens again, I don't know how most typical members would ever come across the truth aside from God's direct hand and mercy. They have been so conditioned to stay away from "poisonous" websites and have been so trained that any contrary information is "death", that it takes an act of desperation to make it somewhere like here....as I can testify and can many others. The FB letter was unique in managing to have a far reach as well as an easy platform for dissemination. Saints didn't have to go looking. It landed on their home page. How to do that again? I dunno. |
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10-17-2020, 12:03 PM
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#53 |
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Deputy Authority? Sounds like a self inflated title to boost the ego of fragile men. It seems these fancy titles: MOTA, Deputy Authority, Overcomers, are the snake oil tactics the LC uses to inflate their worth, in their small little bubble of a church. How is witness Lee qualified to be a "mOtA"? The concept of mOtA is self righteous in itself. But taking their idea of MOTA. How is eMPeRoR Lee, a despot, insecure tyrant, spitural abuser, and Daystar swindler. Who is also completely irrelevant and has little inspiration in Christian theology/ Ministry/ Works (outside the LC), a MOTA? I mean to say he he is beyond Martin Luther? Martin Luther wasn't perfect but sheesh, he is on a different atmosphere when it comes to accomplishments and contributions to Christianity. What did witness Lee accomplish? Maintaining a personality cult that idolizes him, in order to preserve his wacko teachings that no one else in the world could care less about? It seems to me lee and be later, the blended despots, was insecure about other ministries Freeman/Chu, simply because this personality cult is the only thing he has under his bondage- from keeping him from being nothing more than an irrelevant spiritual despot. Also if he is of such MoTa status- why try so hard to hide him from newcomers? Who hides a person of such a title? What are you so scared of? Are Methodist afraid to speak of John Wesley or Lutherans of Martin Luther? What are they so scared of? Hehehehehehehehehehehehe. Why are they so scared to speak of their grand "mOtA"? We all know why, but oh man the snake oil allusion is strong in the LC.
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10-17-2020, 12:19 PM
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#54 | |
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Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,654
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
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By "standing on the shoulders of other" or more correctly, stealing from the ministries of past men of God, these two gathered a great number of other gifted and earnest men of God into their camps. Then slowly they molded them into compliant devotees, or they were expelled and blackballed.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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10-17-2020, 05:36 PM
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#55 |
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Posts: 118
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
It is unfortunate Ohio, but the LC will pay the price of being no more than a personality cult due to its nature of practice and preservation. They are not the church of Philadelphia, they are not anything they think they are. They are deceived by their self righteousness and arrogance. No good comes from these traits, this is evident in the entire existence and ongoing history of the LC.
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10-17-2020, 06:08 PM
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#56 |
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Posts: 118
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
I also have to say, what if the lives/roles of Nee and Lee were reversed(Nee escaped China instead of Lee)? What will the Local churches look liked under the jurisdiction of Nee, until the late 90s. Would the blended brothers still exist completely intact? Would other ministries be allowed to some extent? How would he react to scandals and controversies of the LC ( sexual abuse, Ben McPherson infidelity, spiritual manipulation). Would there be a recovery Bible and morning revivals of some sort? What would the legalism and code of conduct be?Overall what would the lanscape of the LC look like as a whole? Would you have stayed in the LC under a watchman Nee ministry? Or perhaps, it wouldn't be much different at all? Tell me what you think about this idea of Anaheim under Nee instead of Lee.
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10-18-2020, 01:53 PM
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#57 | |
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Location: Natal Transvaal
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
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But I'd hazard this. Nee allowed females to work alongside him, and Lee never did. Perhaps Lee's style was different because of the taint of scandal that Nee never escaped, but came back again and again. Nobody ever accused Lee of sexual affairs, yet Nee was never able to escape this dark lair, until the final imprisonment by Communists. But Nee did use the creative efforts of females, continually, whilst Lee shot them down, continually. Can you imagine a Peace Wang, a Dora Yu, a Ruth Lee or a Margaret Barber functioning in the aegis of the Living Stream Ministry of Witness Lee? I can't.
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"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' |
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10-18-2020, 06:44 PM
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#58 | |
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Location: Greater Ohio
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Quote:
It was the perfect setting for alpha-predators to select their victims. Philip Lee even had secret rooms that even the Ball Road building inspectors never saw.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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10-25-2020, 07:53 PM
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#59 |
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Posts: 118
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
17.What is the LC scientific consensus on the earth in relations to age and past life forms. I have heard LC memebes say the earth is only some thousand years old. Are they creationist when it comes to this. Also I saw some other poster say that the LC believe dinosaur fossils are a hoax by the devil- why.......
17.5 Do alot LC kids get homeschooled in order to shelter them from education they seem as "worldly"? |
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10-25-2020, 10:13 PM
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#60 | |
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Location: Renton, Washington
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
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17.5 - That wasn't my experience. In Anaheim and San Bernardino, all church kids I knew attended public schools. Homeschooled as a means to shelter is going to end in disaster. Sooner or later this kids will need to learn to exist and function in what is considered "worldly".
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"Even a neutral has a right to take account of facts, even a neutral cannot be asked to close his mind or close his conscience."- Franklin D. Roosevelt |
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11-01-2020, 11:49 PM
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#61 |
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Posts: 118
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
18. Puppet Master Elders- I can go in detail but for a general question, why are elders always trying to pull strings behind the scenes and in clear view? Always trying to sway the lives of people and their actions/decisions. Sometimes trying to control various life impactful choices with long term manipulation and motives.
The insidious part is that a lot of the time it is just for the self interest of that elder and disregards the choices of the person they are trying to manipulate. But they will say something like God has a plan or god will the show the way (for what ever topic/circumstance they are talking about), in order to set up their long term manipulation tactic. They use God in order to cover/ set a ruse for their self interest they are not willing to admit. 18.5 Ok I will spill the beans on one good story that is quite sad and frustrating for the brother who is the victim of this. This brother- lets call him John. John is a slim/tall Irish young adult from the North East. He is a sweet hearted man and honestly I don't know how or whether to approach him about this, but continuing on, John has huge feelings for this girl (call her Sharon). Sharon is red hair girl with freckles and also has feelings for John (they always stare at each other and try to find opportunities to talk with each other). John always talks about her when talking with me and he honestly is on the tipping point of love. Then as a bit of time passes, John suddenly comes up to me and we have a private conversation and he just has this confused and teary face. He tells me how Sharon is all of a sudden cutting off from him and he barely gets to see her, and when he does see her, she just flees away quickly and looks scared/irritated/ and pressured if anyone sees them getting close in any way. Soon after this conversation, when the LC has various gatherings and me and John are together or at the gathering. There is this girl who is the daughter of an elder. Lets just say she is the sister that is not and will never be what Sharon is to John. In the LC courtship/arranged system that they have, she will be dead last in slim pickings. I'm not trying to degrade people but there is just too many factors that will make anyone steer away from her. This girl lets call her- Susan. Susan weirdly and randomly goes up to John and asks him just personal and out of context questions that really had no basis for being asked in that moment. She is a single sister going up to a single brother and openly trying to have a conversation with John. Sharon (red hair girl), and John will atbest have a few words of exchange or brief greetings (in front of LC members) cause that's all they can really do without the alarms of LC legalism going off. But Susan asking him if he is ready for marriage and how many kids he wants to have and expressing how many kids she wants to have. Asking him other questions on his personal life and seeing if he mixes well with her. While Susan is doing this- the fake smiles of the elders and people in the know it all- are just oozing out of again. They also go up to John and ask him these out of place questions and inserting "God" has something planned or God will give you the way type comments. John feels weirded out and a little awkward every time Susan does this. John does not see what Susan/Elders are trying to do, and is utterly confused and still telling me about how sad he feels about Sharon and why it is happening or wondering if he did something wrong. He did nothing wrong, this girl Susan went up to her puppet master elder daddy and probably got him to set up the strings along with older Elder and LC members being in on this set up. His heart is being ripped open for no real reason other than self interest of the puppet master elders. John is a good man with a good job, who had feelings for a women who he eventually wanted to marry for quite some time. Sharon also had these feelings and probably thought something more would happen with these feelings. Obviously instructions from higher up sisters probably was too much for her to ignore (in which she has to cut off John). These are one of many cases I have seen of puppet master Elders trying to do their thing. This is a tough one because I'm not sure what to do, any person with their eyes open would see the nonsense going on. Hopefully John open his eyes to and keeps his head up high and somehow move on one way or another. I'm not sure what to do in this case, I could just straight up tell him and have the elders dislike me more than they already do now. I am probably one big intervention of an LC plot away from being outcaste. Which I could care less since I did not plan on staying here long term. But these dear brothers make it so hard to leave. 19. Fake smiles/ and emotional expressions- This branches on from question 18. The fake smiles of deception and false expression are just so humorous and honestly repugnant. Going back to the puppet string question, every time they try to set up or pursue their manipulation tactics- they always have this fake smile. A person who lives long enough, knows a fake smile when they see one. Just the ulterior motive and the deception just oozes from the fake smile and misuse of Gods name in order to pursue their self interest. Also, when they dislike something you do- those piercing eyes of dislike make sure they are known. But those fake smiles, I have to say are done so well- they are counterproductive in their objective of hiding their intent and objective. |
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11-02-2020, 02:02 AM
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#62 |
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Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 118
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
The funny thing is, is that I read part of witness Lee writings on elder traingings and responsibilities. He emphasizes for Elders to keep a hands off approach and not got involved in these kind of things. But he also says to not let people make decisions on their own when it comes to these matters. This back and fourth idea just seems like a mess. In practice this results In a bunch of older people moving around people like pieces on a chess board as they see fit. Poor John, I'm sure there has been many people like John. I feel sorry for anyone who are toyed around like this for somebody else self interest.
- Elders have too much power in regards to power in people's personal lives. |
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11-02-2020, 06:10 AM
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#63 |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 1,523
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Hey jigsaw,
I'm short on time to give input on your questions/information, but when I was reading your latest one, and your comment about just how hard it is to leave the brothers you are friends with, I just had the thought that maybe you are in a great place to help the brothers you are friends with to see "what they are in". I've said this to numerous other posters, here, but I highly recommend reading books on spiritual abuse, two in particular: 1. The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse by Johnson and VanVonderen 2. Healing Spiritual Abuse by Ken Blue These books are a fantastic start to see: 1) what an abusive church is (even if there aren't physical bruises), 2) that this kind of thing has been going on since NT times and is nothing new (in other words, the LC is just another abusive group, not a "unique" group like they claim), 3) that these kind of leaders are precisely who Jesus got furious at, and 4) it may give you some solid Biblical language if you ever want to plant some seeds about the LC to the friends you are in (in other words, speaking from the word about wolves in sheeps clothing, false apostles, people who tie up burdens on men's shoulders, much condemnation in the LC being "commandments of men", etc....). While people in the church will close their ears to the bible over the words of Lee, using the Bible is about the only way to have any hope of helping them see what's going on in the LC and how serious it is. If anything, these books will give you an even clearer understanding of the LC, and will help you identify and put more words to things you already see. Trapped |
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11-02-2020, 02:05 PM
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#64 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 186
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
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Its a snare before him to put him in a horrible trap. Susan's, (and the elders backing her) insensitivity to both him and what is appropriate in their manner of approach to him, shows that their agenda sees nothing beyond itself. When challenged, through the normal trials of working things out as a married couple, she will use her dad and the elders to control and subjicate John. There will be no respect, value or space for him and his needs, or dreams and goals in this relationship. It's character is already on display in this initial demonstration of attempt to influence, as it is already domineering and controlling, and ignores his responses. Women can exploit and abuse men just as much as men to women. This will go very badly for John if he allows approval from the system of authority in the LC to rob him of his freedom in Christ to choose whom he allows deeply into his life. That's my response to this information anyway, John needs good advice, but it maybe hard to deliver effectively. Who knows what's been told to Sharon? No doubt lies or insistence on submission. Satan could only wrestle domination of the world by influencing Eve. She had all the power in the world to choose. It had to be tricked away from her somehow in order for harm to be done to her and Adam. John is in the same situation, his future quality of life is also being wrestled for and the choice is still his I hope. This is where wrongful submission is so dangerous!!! It goes (almost) without saying, this goes for all other young people being manipulated into or out of, relationships as well. |
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11-02-2020, 02:44 PM
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#65 |
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Member
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 118
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
I dont think he has the option to get Sharon to be honest. For him to pursue Sharon would mean him leaving the LC with the agreement of Sharon. There is no way the elders would allow a happy and loving relationship between Sharon and John. As this relationship will violate their self interest. Sharon is also emotionally attached to the Local Churches and the chances of her ditching the LC for John will be quite slim at this point of time. To add more gloom, John has complete cut off communication from Sharon and even other sisters as they just want to surround him with Susan. It is a dirty isolation tactic and I can see it as clear as day. He is not really in a position to freely chose. To get Sharon will cost him leaving the LC. But even if he was to let go of Sharon- if he was to also refuse Susan, this could also cause some problems for him in the LC. Susan is the daughter of a big time elder who is on top in that locality.
Honestly this whole system of arranged relationships is just a huge mess. Some people have happy relationships by this system but this is overshadowed by the huge amount of unhappy or bland relations in the LC. The chess board/Puppet Master mentality from the higher ups in the Local churches just display the flaws of this system. Full grown adults being taken advantage of like this is just the most odious and repugnantly demonstration of control in the local churches. |
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11-02-2020, 05:36 PM
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#66 |
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Member
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 118
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
I personally would love to see Sharon and John run off together and live happily. Cause honestly, the interest of shady people in the LC can go run off in the wind. Realistically, John might have to move on without her or risk a lot for her.
Have any of you encountered situations like this? How did these situations turn out? Can John get out of this with everyone in tact? I just don't get it, how you take a sweet good hearted person like John and put him through this. Honestly, it would have been a beautiful story to see between John and Sharon. I am pissed off but not sure how to act based on not being sure what the best outcome is for John. I am confident he would leave the LC if he could leave off with Sharon (in a heartbeat). He loves her that much and I'm sure she feels the same. I just know they have a tight grip on Sharon and John the sweet soul he is- is not the strong man personality type to stand up to this fully. Heck John does not fully even know what is going on entirely. He simply thinks he did something wrong to Sharon and has not catch on to the Susan plot. |
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11-03-2020, 04:00 AM
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#67 |
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Admin/Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,055
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Jigsaw44,
Pray! Pray! Pray! Then... Direct him to the forum to read what you have written. Or print it out for him. Ask him if he recognizes anything like this in his own life. Whether he says yes or no, you have a place to start. Then, just blurt it out! Tell him you wrote it. He needs honesty in his life. You're his friend. Consider the same/similar path with Sharon. Or, encourage him to talk to Sharon and tell her what he is thinking/feeling. They are headed for a train wreck that could last a lifetime! How much worse could your honesty be? Nell |
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11-03-2020, 04:26 PM
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#68 |
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Member
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 186
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Dear jigsaw44,
We are praying too, to turn this situation around for John and Sharon. We are with you in this and so is God. If you are thinking to follow Nell's advice, we pray for the opportunity to come to you, as we understand the risk and difficulties. Additionally, if you are thinking to give him these posts from this forum, on this matter, I want to add the following: Another layer of how this is a really pivotal and dangerous place John is in.... a tyrannical despotic ruler who gains power over a nation by force, is ever insecure and even paranoid. The reason is simple, he knows the people didn't choose him, thereby he holds his position illegitimately in the moral sense. But his people will suffer the effects of his fears....Susan may achieve gaining John by her morally illegitimate means, but she will ever be aware that he didn't choose her. This will be a cause of her feeling deeply insecure, and her fears will manifest in further problems for John. She may demand constant evidence of love from him, be suspicious and jealous, to a point where life becomes very difficult for John. Control from her will get more and more suffocating, and the pressure from 'the elders' will be on her side of the argument, unless he woos some high-up members of the LC as a deliberate tactic early on, to safeguard himself. He's clearly not the type to do that though. That's my prediction. The set-up will be harmful to Susan as well, but with the power base on her side, John may well become the one to carry it, not her. From your description of his character, he sounds like the perfect candidate to be exploited by LC narcissism and no doubt is therefore even a predictable target, for controllers to desire to engage with, (become engaged to!!) But only so they can devour him. But if John won't listen now, he is destined to learn the hard way. Whatever you risk to inform him will not be wasted in the long run, I beleive. In fact his memory of your effort might just be what enables him to escape it all at some future point in his life. (It was someone's foresight and unwelcome comment at the time, that really helped me in the confusion and aftermath of my own rough journey. That person I deeply respect today.) I am praying John meets Sharon somewhere unexpectedly and they get to talk away from the LC. That's my bit to add anyway. |
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11-03-2020, 09:02 PM
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#69 |
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Guest
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Wow, you’ve gotten a lot of input today. I’m new on this site, but I’m not wanting to register yet. I love the brothers and sisters at the location I used to attend. I grew up in that church and hated it as a teen, went back to it as an adult, and severed once I got married (to someone outside of the church). I’m a woman btw. My husband told me the truth, and that was that the LC was weird. He had no interest in getting involved.
We church shopped for a long time but now we are in a Baptist Church and if you know anything about Baptist theology it is Sola Scriptura, which means it is ONLY based on scripture. No Lee, Nee, or subjective mysticism. For the first time ever, I had sound doctrine preached in entire chapters to me, not just a verse out of context and someone’s experience. I started to devour the word of God. I realized I had a faith I could count on, that I could understand, and that the Bible is the inspired word of God, the only source of truth, and it is relevant and reliable. I’ve also studied apologetics and my faith has grown tremendously as a result. While in LC, my whole life was a fruitless lukewarm and tragically sinful conundrum. My dad, still currently in LC, gave me a devotional a couple weeks ago by Oswald Chambers. Admittedly, I don’t like devotionals. I read some of it. Its one of those books that seems good, feels good to read, but my Sola Scriptura rejects it. It is chalked full of mysticism and easy believism, which are not biblical whatsoever. I googled Oswald Chambers and Watchman Nee popped up in some of the articles I read. My dad gave me a Watchman Nee book several years back that I read before I ever got serious in my Bible reading. So I looked up more on Nee and it led me here. My parents have really tried to act like church history never happened. They never talked about it with me. They acted like they were independent from that. I didn’t even know the church was franchised like this! But the ugly truth came out, that as much as they try to deny it, they’re still Nee-deep in Witness Lee stuff. I’m not doubting my parents salvation, but their methods did not produce genuine salvation for their kids. Their church has done nothing but shrink and split. It wasn’t till we were inspired (by someone else outside of LC) to read actual scripture and were preached that obedience is a requirement that we were able to have a faith that wasn’t stagnant. Growing up the church taught all you need to do is believe and you’re saved. Then they dumped heavy expectations on young kids with no preaching of actual scripture to back it up. They had 4 hour long groanings and heavy feelings based meetings that this bored and uninterested kid sat through. I was supposed to get it. I didn’t. When I told my dad I didn’t like that devotional, that it wasn’t biblical, it was hard to say. There was a lot of pain in my heart over it bc I realized that in rejecting that book, I was rejecting my whole Christian upbringing. Now that I read the Bible, old and New Testament and not the recovery version, I know that not every feeling is the Holy Spirit. Through His word I can discern what’s mysticism and what’s not. The LC focuses too much on our feelings rather than the word of God. God’s word doesn’t change. Our feelings on the other hand.... Look, I’m not telling you how to live your life, but it seems you have a lot of complaints about a church you’re still attending. What if I told you that other churches outside of LC have genuine fruitful believers and a whole lot less of the stuff you’re talking about. It’s one thing for the church to include you, it’s another to overbear you. Maybe the Lord wants you to move on, but you’re still hanging on to something that isn’t sitting right. Pray about this, and keep your heart open. Don’t believe them that they’re the only real church. That’s complete and utter mind control. God is eternal. He was here before they existed and He will be here after their time is up. If you have something genuine there at your location, and it doesn’t rub against the grain of the scripture, and you’re reading a Bible that’s not Recovery, then by all means don’t let all this information influence you. I’m just telling you from experience that I never knew anything else and it was scary to move on, but I have no regrets now. I love those saints, but there’s no relationship more important than the one I now have with God. Thanks to His word! If it wasn’t for my husband, I more than likely would’ve stayed bc of relationships with the saints. More than likely I’d still be living in extreme sin and darkness as well. I needed to hear more about sin and obedience. It was a game changer. Anyhow,. I pray you get God’s clarity on the matter. |
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11-04-2020, 11:44 AM
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#70 |
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Member
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 186
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Dear unregistered,
Thankyou so much for your post. Each additional testimony adds to the overall story of what the LC is really all about. A theme is emerging amongst this flurry of new contributers, who represent church kids, now grown up, and younger generation members who joined through their campus outreach. It's the theme that sin was not understood and the person experienced, as you said, living in quite a darkness, ('extreme sin', is your description) with no way to acknowledge or confess to their own sin. And being confused, no clear understanding that makes sense imparted, but a heavy burden of expectations and avoidance of what is called 'worldliness' which just excludes the kids from many normal healthy childhood activities. This is an important aspect if the impact of this 'culture' on the lives of young people as they grow up. I think important to be identified as its is a source of overriding negative self-image and the struggle to reconcile a message that is not logical, clear, or truth, really just designed to keep a young person damaged and in the dark where their own sins are their survival method and only comfort. That's my guess. (as you see, I've never been 'perfected' by WL's programme so I'm full of my own opinions!!!) Perhaps a topic new posters would like to explore further? |
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11-04-2020, 01:09 PM
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#71 |
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Member
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Posts: 118
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
I do intend to move on eventually, that's for sure. As for why the constant questions/complaints? At this point simply want people who come across this website/thread (esp people from campus ministry), to get as much insight into this personality cult as I can give in this single thread. Look how much info this one thread provides alone. Not everyone can sit around here all day and lurk for a good chunk of their day and read the numerous amounts of threads on here. So I thought a thread that stretches upon many topics would help alot of people coming to this website to get quick and great info on this single thread. Originally, I simply wanted some answers to some questions I had. But the more responses I got and looking at some other testimonies and experiences of other people that were in the LC. It gave me the spark to perhaps help lurkers and visitors around here who were also in the dark when it came to who the LC really is. It isn't just for me at this point, and frankly others besides me need help to in escaping the grasp of the LC.
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11-04-2020, 01:13 PM
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#72 |
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Posts: 118
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
I am glad you were able to find a new church to settle down with. One day I hope to find a new place I can settle with long term to. But this website, gave me alot of insight and frankly a place to vent on my LC experience. I hope others come here and find their needs fulfilled here to.
Hope you have a blessed day- Poster #69 |
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11-04-2020, 07:08 PM
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#73 |
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Posts: 118
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
I will try to help John, but I have to do it in a certain way, thank you for all your prayers
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11-04-2020, 07:45 PM
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#74 |
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Hey, and thanks for responding. I wasn’t trying to sound like I’m criticizing you. I re read my post and see how it can be perceived as such. I’m sorry if it did.
You are so right about others needing to leave. All by my lonesome I would’ve never had the courage. I also didn’t have genuine faith to take that leap. Genuine faith comes from the word of God, which isn’t preached or spoken about there in a comprehensive way. I can do all things through a verse taken out of context isn’t deliverance. There’s only one young man meeting with my parents LC. 30ish, unmarried; battling addiction. And I want to get him out of there. I think easy believism bears evil fruit. Bc people are like, oh cool, I believe. Can’t wait to leave here and get high and be a completely different person than the one I am sitting in here. I know how it is for this young man bc it was me. If I relied on the church for a husband it would’ve never happened. There wasn’t a man in sight and if there ever would be one, both of us would be too busy being fake to get to know each other. Which is weird bc according to their theology we can do what we want as long as there’s no conviction. It’s hard to get convictions when you’re not actually saved, reading the real Bible, or hearing sound orthodox teaching. Keep the grace card in our back pocket. I may have been able to fool the church but there’s no fooling God. If you’re living in utter sin with only enough conviction to pretend you’re not at church, you’re not saved! My parents say that all the church kids are saved. You know, the ones that don’t go at all, bear no fruit for the Lord, never talk about God with their friends, and look like atheists? Oh yeah, they’re saved. �� let’s not forget when they were 12 we manipulated them to have an emotion based response to a feelings based talk and they accepted God that day without knowing what that meant. Now theyre 30 and lost as lost gets, but they’re saved bc of that one time when they were 12. I’m wondering if they really believe what they’re saying, or it’s just a way to comfort them while their adult kids have chosen sinful lifestyles for over a decade. And the kids even think they’re saved too. Bc they were manipulated into thinking it when they were 12 without real knowledge of what that means. They need to hear that God vomits out the lukewarm, that faith without works is dead, that not everyone who cries Lord Lord will inherit the kingdom of God. You’ll never hear that at LC. I was reading another post where someone said that their congregation rejected the book of James entirely. When I went, I didn’t care about God’s word, so I never noticed. Is this true?! I am reading James right now and I can tell you, the thought of omitting it makes me want to puke. Please tell me that’s not true. Please tell me that saints use other Bibles than recovery. I am beside myself about my parents being connected to a group that would reject the book of James. I understand rejecting Enoch and Apocryphal texts but not James, and not the Old Testament. My dad has been saved for almost 50 years and he’s read the Old Teatament once. ONCE. That baffles me bc it literally affirms who Jesus is. It’s necessary! I’m sorry, I just went on a tangent but I’m disturbed over this stuff. Jigsaw I’m gonna be praying for the LC bc I love these people. I know it sounds like I don’t, but I do. |
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11-05-2020, 06:10 AM
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#75 |
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Posts: 118
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Unregistered Poster , it's all good. I didn't feel overly criticised at all. I simply addressed some valid points and topics I wanted to respond to. I'm glad you posted that and love your insight. It's not like I'm an insecure and petty witness Lee, who will excommunicate, isolate, and banish anyone who criticised or questioned him and his works in way shape or form. Feel free to respond in this forum in any way, that's the purpose of a forum.
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11-05-2020, 06:44 AM
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#76 |
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Jigsaw, do they reject the book of James at your LC meeting place?
And do they use the Recovery version? If so, does it omit the Old Testament? I went online and ordered a recovery version. It’s coming to me for free but it will take 6 weeks. The free one didn’t include the Old Testament, so I was wondering if any of them do. My curiosity will be the death of me. Lol Here’s a real key point I was always missing and it’s frlm the book of James. James 1:22 Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. That’s what it’s here for right? For God’s instructions. |
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11-05-2020, 09:30 AM
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#77 | |
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Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,654
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Quote:
They don't actually/officially remove the book of James, but they kind of don't value the message within it. They do the same with Proverbs and many Psalms, saying they are merely "human sentiment." Dear Guest, if I could speak for all the posters here, we all collectively rejoice that you have found the Lord outside of the LC program.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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11-05-2020, 02:33 PM
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#78 |
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Thank you Ohio. I am blown away that they are dismissive of James’ message. But I suppose the ‘why’ behind it makes sense. The Old Testament is a real faith builder. When we don’t realize that we are actually bad, or that God is wrathful, we don’t grasp the reasoning behind the cross. No part of the Bible should ever be left out.
Was Witness Lee actually a godly man? I’m too young to have ever met him, but from what I perceive he had a God complex that really shined through his personalized interpretations added to the word of God. I’m willing to overlook a lot of other things, seeing as no man is infallible. But I find him adding all his stuff to the Bible blasphemous. Facts don’t need feelings. |
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11-07-2020, 03:43 PM
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#79 |
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Posts: 118
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
They deemphasize certain books of the Bible because Witness Lee has decided that his doctrine is above everything else. So when he comes across certain books and it does not fully align with his doctrine of "God's Economy", he straight up says this book is flawed and such and such because it does not line up with his doctrine of "God's Economy". Im referring to his "life studies", are publications by witness Lee and his publication company. Life studies are teachings of witness Lee based on his interpretation of all the books of the Bible. In the Life study of James, he goes on tangents and different explanations on why James Is not an essential book, but then eventually be spits out what he truly feels and says the problem he has with James is that it does not follow his doctrine of "God's Economy".
As if the Word of God is obligated to follow the doctrine of man. It is the opposite, the doctrine of man better align with the word of God because if not, better hope God have mercy for your wicked pride. Imagine if you are a researcher in academia and you are working on a research for publication in an academic journal. You spend alot of time on this research and worked very hard, but you discover a flaw that potentially ruins everything up to that point and perhaps need to readjust or scrap your research. A responsible researcher would need to go to that length In order to produce respectable and legitimate research that is suitable for publication and even more- further teaching. Witness Lee on the other hand probably could not accept that, so instead of accepting the limitations and or flaws of his doctrine and adimiting weakness in his understanding- he took the petty route. He has degraded and devalued multiple books of the Bible because of the pride of his works in doctrine. He dislikes proverbs because it emphasizes wisdom, critical thinking, and understanding. Which are all traits witness Lee is scared of because it threatens his ministry. Idk what the deal is with his dislike toward Psalms and his argument of Human sentiment. The Psalms are an honest reflection of the heart, mind, soul, and spirit of man in all circumstances of life. In life you will come across joy, despair, pride, lust, zeal, and praise. The Lord will know what is always and our heart and we have a calling to call him out and give our self to him. David had a terrible and chaotic life, his Psalms are a reflection of that. You got to be pompous, arrogant, and spoiled to think the Psalms are petty and are full of "sentiment" and therefore have no value. According to the LC the various books of the word of God is valued based on it's accordance to their doctrine "Economy of God"- by witness Lee and of course other Lee teachings. Going back to the book of James, the book of James itself is just a praise or appreciate of the teachings of Jesus from the Gospel. I want you to read a Gospel either all 4 or perhaps 1 that you prefer like John or Perhaps Luke. Then read the book of James and tell me you don't see a straight reflection of the values and teachings of Christ from the gospels. In regards to works, everybody in the kingdom of heaven puts in their share of work as seen in the parable of the laborers in the Vineyard. No one is better than the other in the regard of works, but work is done. I remember I was at a conference on the east coast and I was fairly new and talking about the book of James with a older brother. He tried to argue against the book of James with petty nit picking and cherry picking of some flaws of James shown in acts. As if all prominent figures in the Bible didn't have flaws of their own. Also the mindset of James in Acts does not carry over as the commandments he emphasizes are the moral commandments set to the highest regard by Jesus himself in the gospel. I even confronted this older brother, who was a fairly tall musclar and tomato faced pissed off, because of my better arguments. I asked him this final question to end the conversation- if the epistle of James reflects and honors the teachings of Jesus Christ himself in the gospel- what can honestly be more important than that? He angrily slightly yells- IT DOES NOT FOLLOW THE ECONOMY OF GOD. I was In disbelief that this man puts the word of man, on top of the word of God and putts the word of God under some subjugation of the word of man. Man is servant of God not the other way around- we have to follow him in accordance with our lives. I am going to say something that is really pushing it and perhaps showing the emotion I have right now. I'm sorry if it offends people deeply into the LC teachings but it's how I see things. There is only one being in existence who ever foolishly tried to put himself above God and attempted put his pride and existence above Lord God himself (this being in particular to his pride is described in Isaiah and Ezekiel I believe). He paid the ultimate price and that being lives on til this day trying to make the creation of God (us), follow in the same path as he once did. We don't even realize it sometimes but we stray off path here and there either by a little which just requires a little straighting out or sadly we completely go off astray into darkness. But don't ever realize your place and pedestal of the worth of your created self. As shown in 2 Timothy 3:16, all scripture is used for teaching and understanding. When you disregard or Deemphasize certain scripture after being exposed to it, you risk your entire self to the world. Final question for people who disregard scripture- when the final moments of time come to an end and you face the Lord in his second coming, will you be able to stand by the words you contain in your heart and lash with your tounge? To the man at the east coast conference- would you tell those same last words to Jesus Christ himself at the end of times like you told me? Repent, fear god more than you fear man, do not discard portions of Christ because you fear the actions of man, cause Gods wrath is not comparable to the punishment of man. |
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11-07-2020, 04:06 PM
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#80 |
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Posts: 118
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
To add on more- there is a verse in James that basically says (paraphrasing), Few people should take on the role as teachers because Teachers will be judged on much more severity than those they teach. For LC people who are deluded, blind, or narrow minded for one reason or another- perhaps the Lord will have more mercy on those who follow false teachers compared to the false teachers themselves. there are sweet people in the LC and they probably do not realize what the reality is of their beliefs and may God have mercy on them. But for the False Teachers such as Lee and his co-workers and even elders, heck even those who realize what they are doing and propagate Lee teachings over scripture- better bow down and hope the mercy of God is upon you when the time comes for resurrection. Idk the extent of how merciful God will be in the events of revelation. But I will never risk my salvation by doing something as foolish as putting the word of man over the word of God. I could imagine justifiyng various flaws and sins I will commit in my lifetime when it regards human desires. But I could not fathom trying to justify degrading God's word by placing it below man.
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11-07-2020, 05:30 PM
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#81 | |
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Location: Greater Ohio
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Quote:
For where you have jealousy and rivalry, there you will find tumults and every worthless practice.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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11-08-2020, 09:00 PM
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#82 | |
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Posts: 1,006
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
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And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:14 NASB) |
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11-09-2020, 08:48 AM
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#83 | |
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Admin/Moderator
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 2,055
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Quote:
I didn't live around WL a lot. Much like you at conferences, trainings, etc. I did have a sobering, hard-to-forget, conversation with a brother who was a volunteer worker building the meeting hall in Irving. His volunteer schedule was this: every night after work and all day Saturdays and Sundays. Yes. Sundays. He would forego attending Sunday meetings to work on the hall. He was not alone. Others, including as I understand-Ray Graver, often did not attend meetings. Many others worked hard for no pay during the construction of that hall, which now seems to sit virtually empty. At the time of this conversation, this brother had stopped meeting with the LC; he and his wife divorced. He told about a specific experience while working on the hall and his voice was full of pain and anguish. Keep in mind that the likelihood of Lee not having ultimate authority on every detail of the construction was nil. Once, after Lee was in town to inspect the progress on the hall, the volunteers were called together and informed that, although the elevator had already been installed in the building, Lee did not like its location, and that they would be moving it from one end of the building to the other. No reason other than that: Lee wanted the elevator moved. So they moved it. Of course, originally he had approved the location of the elevator, and had simply changed his mind. From this brother's perspective, hundreds of hours of his own personal time and labor were wasted. All the work was to be done over. He was devastated. I still remember his exasperating words: "I'M A BUILDER!! I DON'T TEAR THINGS DOWN!!!" No reason was given for the change order, simply that Lee wanted the elevator moved. The time and labor involved in this change was massive. The time required by the volunteer labor was massive. He didn't relate the stage of construction the building was in when the move was ordered. Depending on how near completion the building was would determine how much time and effort the "do over" would require. Brothers came in from all over the state and the surrounding states to "serve the ministry." This occurred many years before the brother accounted this story to a group of us. It was still a painful memory to him. He had sacrificed time with his family and time in the "church life" in "service to the ministry." Ultimately, he and his wife divorced. He didn't say that his absence from his wife/family to work on the hall was a factor in his divorce. We can speculate that it certainly didn't help. So. Was Witness Lee a godly man? Did Witness Lee/LSM Publications put as much thought into closing down LSM-Irving as Lee did in moving the elevator in the building after construction was underway? Did Witness Lee appreciate the sacrifice of the men who volunteered thousands of hours to build his building for him? * Was Witness Lee a godly man? He likely had his moments. * Did Witness Lee have a "god complex"? It would be hard to say that he didn't. * Was this kind of behavior considered to be "sin"? Causing the sheep to stumble...is that sin? God knows. I wouldn't want that millstone around my neck. Lee was a user. He used people up and spit them out. When people could no longer accommodate his whims, at their own expense, they were no longer of use to him. (Remember Daystar?) When they could no longer bear up under his abuse, they were/are labelled, quarantined, shunned, and otherwise shown the door. I think this practice continues today among the anonymous leadership/cow-orkers. They just use a lot of "pretty words" that sound spiritual, but are in fact full of dead mens bones. Nell Last edited by Nell; 11-09-2020 at 01:19 PM. |
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11-10-2020, 10:14 AM
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#84 | |
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Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,654
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Quote:
Obviously this was simply a personal preference. He was there with the architects. He saw the drawings of the plans. He could follow the layout in the drawings from the time he drove up in a car, parked the car, went into his apartment, saw the kitchen, saw the bedroom, saw the bathroom, saw the meeting facilities, etc. This was not his first rodeo. He had been building meeting halls his whole life. He understood floor plans on drawings. I remember volunteering to work on houses in Anaheim for a couple days after a training. Brothers everywhere. They assigned me to help install a wood floor. Ray Graver, whom I never met before, walks in, never said hello or good morning, and literally barks, "get the floors down brothers." Later I overheard this house was for WL. Ruh-roh! After all the workers went to Ball road for dinner, I decided to look around. That's what I do, I grew up in construction. Apparently I walked upstairs with Anaheim sand on my shoes. Not on purpose, I thought they were clean. The next morning there was an uproar, "someone tracked dirt upstairs." RG was agitated pacing the floor, "Cover those steps going upstairs. Who did this?" I kept working. I said nothing. Nobody asked me a thing, and even if they did ...
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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11-18-2020, 11:14 AM
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#85 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: in Spirit & in Truth
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
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Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. (Luke 21:36) |
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11-30-2020, 08:20 PM
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#86 |
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Posts: 118
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
20. What is your honest assessment of Witness Lee publication on 'Gods Economy'? . It was published in the sixties and is largely unknown outside of the LC denomination. But they hail it as some grand and supreme doctrine with no illustrious backing to back up such claim. What is the whispers and opinions of the doctrine of Gods economy among various theological and Christian circles. If you can,Pls link any quote or articles on some opinion piece by some credible sources other than the Christian research institute (already know that story). Otherwise type away at any anecdotal stories you have on outside perception of the Gods economy doctrine. Is it a well respected doctrine in certain aspects of it or atleast has some notability and respect in the realm of publications?
20.5 Do you think the public reception of "God's economy" led to witness Lee bitterness of other Christian denominations or atleast amplified it to a significant extent? |
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12-10-2020, 04:48 PM
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#87 |
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Member
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Posts: 118
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
21. Why do full timers act as spies?
22. Do the local churches believe they are exclusively the body of Christ? I saw a Steve isitt book and the description of the book I think said, Ron kangas at a conference at Minneapolis claimed the local churches are the only true body of Chris? Idk if my memory is foggish or is this just Ron Kangas running his big mouth again. But is this a general consensus of belief within the LC? if this question is answered the I'll make a thread on a crazy encounter that I just put the puzzle together from various memories and interactions I had with LC Folk. |
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12-10-2020, 05:23 PM
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#88 | |
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
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Some of the ex-FTTA attendees might be able to more accurately answer this question. I think the answer may depend upon how finely the LSM leadership strains at the gnats. I always heard that there were believers and fellow members of the body of Christ even in the Catholic church and the denominations. But, I believe the LSM leadership also taught that these non-LSM groups were not legitimate expressions of the Body of Christ. To be legitimate a group had to follow the false teaching of the ground of the church, cooperate with LSM by having a standing order and paying for the training, and to not publish books or materials not approved by LSM.
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Hebrews 12:2 "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith." (KJV Version) Look to Jesus not The Ministry. |
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12-13-2020, 04:47 AM
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#89 |
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Posts: 118
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
23. What are the details of this incident referred to by John Ingall and the testimony of other individuals?
- In the summer of 1987 I began to be concerned for the first time about some of the things taking place under the direction of the Living Stream Ministry Office. The things that were done and promoted in the high school training in Irving, Texas, in August 1987 greatly disturbed me, especially knowing that Philip Lee, the manager of the LSM office, was giving direct instructions and “fellowship” for the training’s execution - What in the world happened at the high school training in Irving? What did they contaminate these innocent kids with? What was being promoted? I hope nothing too damaging beyond repair was done. 24. The sixteen points addressed at Anaheim by concerning ones of LC practices. How many were accepted and reformed? Or perhaps all of them were rejected because from what I seen, the same issues are still present today...... All sixteen of those issues were not reformed at all and those problems will continue to spark "rEbElLIonS" in the local churches. The sixteen points remind me of the 95 thesis by Martin Luther and his efforts to reform the church. The funny thing was is that Martin Luther never originally wanted to break away from the catholic church and simply had troubles he took to heart with the church and sought "REFORM". John Ingalls and the men who supported him are like reformers and the LC is the big bad catholic church who loses their marbles when criticized because they are too holy and too good for rebuke. Honestly it is easy to bash the catholic church for all their issues in history, but if the Local churches had the size and time of existence of the Catholic church, they probably would be twice as bad. Look at the issues the LC has had just in America, within their short history. There will be more and more rebellion's because they never accept reform and the Local churches I predict will have a split and division among different regions of the world (even with the US) that will be permanent. I think there will be a true reformation of the Local churches within the next lets say 50-100 years. Then the goals and sacrifice of reformers such as John and his supporters will be meet. Those sixteen points will be part of the reformation at hand, and the division of the Local churches will display the empty and fear led OnEnEsSSSS they had. Who will be the successful Martin Luther that will permanently be the dividing sword (Luke 12:51, Mark 10:34) of the Local Churches? There will be no peace for this church as they will constantly have reform efforts in the name of Christ. Last edited by jigsaw44; 12-13-2020 at 10:04 AM. |
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12-13-2020, 09:55 AM
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#90 | |
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Member
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Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,654
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Quote:
Here's one story told by TC of Cleveland. The LSM trainers used baptism to shame all the older brothers, demanding compliance. At some point, the LSM trainers turned the young "trainees" on TC, who was "invited" to attend. All demanded his subjection, joining the "new way," getting "baptized in the spirit," clamoring for him to get dunked. But TC refused. He was baptized in 1953. He would not be humiliated for LSM "sport" under the manipulations of Philip Lee. When the young trainees returned, they testified to the LC. They talked about returning back to school and "multiplying" ten-fold, hundred-fold, thousand-fold, drawing circles on the whiteboard. It was the oldest trick in the book -- set them all up for failure. And they did, probably their first week of class. Their faith was not in Jesus, but was diverted to some grand imaginary church explosion.
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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12-15-2020, 05:34 AM
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#91 | |
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Location: Natal Transvaal
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Quote:
And this is from a group whose only existence is derived from the illegitimacy of everyone else.
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"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' |
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12-15-2020, 07:00 AM
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#92 | |
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Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 13,654
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
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Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! |
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12-15-2020, 01:37 PM
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#93 |
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Member
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Location: in Spirit & in Truth
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
Just a thought,
Let’s not forget to lift up our brethren in the LC to Jesus, the Author and Perfecter of our Faith, our Hope of Glory. I do think like Sons to Glory and myself, many were led in to the LC in the early 70s but more have been led out in the last 30 years. Many have walked through the valley of the shadow of death while in the LC and after leaving. Many do not know what to do or where to go. However God’s promise is His Goodness and Mercy will follow us all the days of our lives. He will never leave us or forsake us. He began a good work (a most excellent work if you ask me) in us and He is going to perfect it and complete it. He turns our mourning in gladness, Darkness into Light. We need that Faith in Him, need to trust Him. The LCrs need their Savior Jesus in their every days lives. “Dear Jesus, through the Power of Your Holy Spirit, remind the LCrs, YOU and YOU ALONE, are their Savior, not Lee’s teachings. They need to feel and experience, Your Kindness, Your Love for them. Abba Father God, You sent Your Beloved Son to set the captives free, free from religion and religious works. Expose the wrong teachings and reveal the TRUTH with Love and Mercy to them. Draw the LCrs near and dear to You. Shine Your Love, Your Glory Light on them. Change their stinking thinking, by renewing their minds in Christ Jesus..Supply them with their everyday needs, that they may give You The Glory and Praise with a heart filled with gratitude and Thanksgiving. Heal their broken hearts. Heal their broken lives. Turn their darkness into Light and their mourning into dancing. Thank You Father God for receiving our petitions through Christ Jesus and Your Holy Spirit. Amen”
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Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man. (Luke 21:36) |
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12-15-2020, 02:45 PM
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#94 |
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Member
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 118
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
24. Eldership- What exactly is the selection process and criteria for Elders in the LC. I have seen good elders who are responsible, knowledgeable, and well behaved. But others from what I have seen and heard is some elders are honestly power driven , fear driven, and honestly quite a fool when exposed in the slightest bit. They are the type of man that no one would want to be subject under or associated with if he was in a bad mood.
- Do the coworkers select potential elder candidates for an ITERO invitation and screen them, and see if they are kiss enough butt to witness lee doctrine? Or perhaps there are other qualifications such as scriptural knowledge, reputation of proper etiquette and conduct, and overall capability to lead? Or perhaps a man needs to climb the ranks before going up to elder such as being a FTTA graduate, serving, being a responsible one, then being elder if he stays being a witness lee robot. If there is some criteria for being an elder why have I seen such bad behavior and heard as well as witness some terrible elders in regard to leadership and self control/discipline? Bad elders are one of the biggest problems in regards to the disruption of many lives in the LC, of course not as much as the teachings of the megalomaniac of Witness Lee since the source of LC negativity comes from him. 25. Parenting- What happens if a parent wants to raise kids they want to raise them in the LC. Such as celebrating birthdays, letting them play sports and engage in activities and social interactions deem "worldly". Spending time with family during the holidays and enjoying time outside the LC overall? What extent will the LC attempt to intervene and control someone's parenting if it does not fully align with LC conduct? Cause it seems to me that a lot of parenting is not only from delusion but of pressure and fear of perceived misconduct. |
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12-15-2020, 07:58 PM
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#95 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 960
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
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What a wonderful prayer! Seems to touch on a lot of important things.
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Hebrews 12:2 "Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith." (KJV Version) Look to Jesus not The Ministry. |
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12-15-2020, 08:12 PM
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#96 | |
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Member
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 1,523
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
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The reason you see bad behavior and witness terrible elders related to leadership and self control/discipline is because the primary criteria is connected to their love of the ministry. And if you have someone who loves the ministry, and that ministry is one that as Ohio has said "makes bullies out of beloved brothers", you get bullies in the leadership. You get people who read infallible teachings saying that they are not to be questioned, they are to be submitted to whether right or wrong, that emotions are bad, that females are bad, that meaningless platitudes or thought-stopping cliches are the way to handle severe human pain, and that anyone who questions is to be shunned.......and they become more of the same - abusive leaders. Did Lee get some things right about caring for the saints in some of his ministry books? Of course. But it's undeniable that the known undercurrent within the local churches is the lack of love. |
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12-16-2020, 05:18 AM
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#97 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Natal Transvaal
Posts: 5,628
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
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I've told this before - I was a troubled youth who became a troubled adult. Then I was told, it's so simple, so easy! Just call "O Lord" on the proper ground of oneness, and all the floodgates of blessing and healing will follow. Just be one with the speaking, give yourself to the Lord for the propagation of the High Peak Truth. The "it's so simple and easy" mantra turned into a lot of "Just do this" and "Just do that" but anyway I was game. I was on the front row of every meeting, louder than the rest. But after years of 24/7 immersion, I couldn't deny that I was still a troubled adult. I scheduled time with an elder, poured out my frustration. He wasn't interested. One by one I went to each elder, hoping for an ear, some acknowledgement of our common humanity. The closest I got was when one of them looked at me without expression and said, "We all have problems." One by one I got a perfunctory brushoff. At the time, I was still "sold out" and "wrecked" for the LC and I soldiered on. But it was disconcerting that the "glorious church life" was an empty facade. They were interested in a kind of external meeting-life performance, but not very much in me as a human. The church mattered, the ministry mattered, etc, but there was little indication from those leaders that they cared for me. (But in retrospect how could they care? They'd been given no tools. In fact the few innate tools they possessed had been taken away) They were each clearly uncomfortable at my speaking, as if bothered that I came to them at all, as if pouring out my trouble exposed their impotence. By confessing my sins, I'd broken an unwritten code, to always be positive and to maintain pretense at all costs. Thus the brusque one-liners in reply to my embarrassed self-exposure. Conversation over. Get back to the meeting and call, "Oh Lord".
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"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers' Last edited by aron; 12-16-2020 at 10:32 AM. |
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12-16-2020, 05:35 AM
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#98 |
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Member
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 118
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
That's the thing about elders, they are just ordinary people with limitations on knowledge and capability, some are outright idiots who just echo witness Lee doctrine mindlessly, others are actually really good and capable people who nevertheless are Lee drones (well on the outside atleast, I would not be surprised if some (very few) elders have feelings of opposition on the inside). Unfortunately this image of an elder creates this imposter syndrome person that puts a veil over his weaknesses with insecurity, fear, and manipulation- all to uphold the false image of the LC. Elders are just regular people - they don't have the answer to everything and never will.
Last edited by jigsaw44; 12-16-2020 at 12:45 PM. |
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12-16-2020, 07:20 PM
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#99 |
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Member
Join Date: Sep 2020
Posts: 118
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Re: Thoughts, Questions, And Wanted Discussion On Local Churches
That wicked disgusting man Philip Lee, dares disrespect the holy spirit by attempting to using the blessing and wonder of baptism for his self gain? As if baptism is for allegiance to ordinary man, it is soley in the name of Christ and is done in remission.
My brother Ohio, surely you are aware to those that commit blasphemy and mockery of the holy spirit. As shown in Matthew chapter 12, mercy is not for those that belittle the holy spirit. Philip lee, such a wicked man and to believe the despots at Anaheim got rid of all integrity and honesty all for this scumbag. Not even his father took the initiative to discipline and take action for such atrocities. Imagine being such a failure of a father that you allow and enable such wicked scum to be unpunished. Innocent and wonderful men were torn down over such a piece of trash that will never find salvation. Deep down I know those despots know of the wrongs they did to those who spoke out and they will answer to the lord one day for their injustice. When Ron Kangas spoke about the FB letter and went on about previous "rEbElLIoNS", he went down the list of men that spoke out against the LC such as Max, and John (didn't have the guts to even mention Titus, I think Ron as a person is just a scared egotistical man who is really insecure. Just look how he degraded his wife just for the sake of belittling women. He is not even a good orator, such a boring monotone voice, people say his previous position was book editor? Well no wonder he is so darn insecure, the death of witness Lee was one heck of a promotion opportunity to him and now he speaks at every major event with his boring monotone voice. But going back to Ron, he mentioned the death of John but didn't even say John is now with the Lord or bless him or nothing like that (he said some blessings for Max but not John. He then went on to say how John was the first American Coworker and that he should have stayed under the covering/umbrella of witness Lee and yachta Yachta and continued to degrade him. He then went on the usual Kora rebellion routine and emphasized having a "submissive spirit" towards authority. Ron you never mentioned how a man like John, the first American Coworker and later venerated elder, was pushed to speak out in the first place. Wasn't John famous line in his book- how did something so good become so bad? I'm sorry but things did go bad and it's how a man like John had enough. Benson Phillips, and other blended despots- Phillip Lee was not worth it. Not worth it at all, you gave up such precious men for satanic trash. Ron Kangas is an arrogant punk who dispresects good men in their death and obviously can't face strong will men in their face like Titus. Idk, I'm thinking they are scared of Titus, they won't even mention his name and idk how much weight/influence Titus has in his ministry but they don't want to mess with him while he is alive (they will save the slander for when he is dead). These men rule over fear and domineer over people. |
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