Your thoughts on Near Death Experiences and testimonies

[Raptor]

Many people have had Near Death Experiences and today with social media and YouTube etc, many have posted testimonies about their experiences and recount everything from going to hell and being rescued, encounters with Jesus, being told it´s not their time and to go back, etc.

Some sound very genuine and credible, others sound embellished or filtered through religious concepts, others plainly false. Here are two that sound very genuine, credible and amazing.

https://youtu.be/HAR5MpYNnRE

https://youtu.be/gcqOUg0fvL4


In general, I recommend NOT watching many of these because they can easily inject all kinds of concepts about the after life, and there is no way to verify what is said. What do you think?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Many people have had Near Death Experiences and today with social media and YouTube etc, many have posted testimonies about their experiences and recount everything from going to hell and being rescued, encounters with Jesus, being told it´s not their time and to go back, etc.

Some sound very genuine and credible, others sound embellished or filtered through religious concepts, others plainly false. Here are two that sound very genuine, credible and amazing.

https://youtu.be/HAR5MpYNnRE

https://youtu.be/gcqOUg0fvL4


In general, I recommend NOT watching many of these because they can easily inject all kinds of concepts about the after life, and there is no way to verify what is said. What do you think?

I've read some of these over the years. It's usually when another brother reads one they think is good. I too have a mixed reaction and agree it's hard/impossible to verify.

I read one book that appeared to take a fairly empirical approach, and the author and some doctors were evidently converted by the evidence of the situations presented. (I forget the name of the book now . . .) One thing that was convincing was how a child gave an accurate account of things that happened in the hospital room when they died. Then they saw and described in detail a pair of tennis shoes on an outside hospital ledge several stories up - as their spirit floated upward. They sent a maintenance person to find the shoes, and they were found in an obscure lace no one could see and they couldn't figure out how they even got there. So could it all have been set up? Sure, but the author didn't think so (or at least that's what they wrote).

Again, no way to conclusively verify.

Vivid and wildly beautiful colors that one couldn't even imagine was something that stands out to me from many of these accounts. (but Satan is able to present himself as an angel of light)

To me the bottom-line is if any of these accounts does not give Jesus Christ the utmost glory and preeminence as Lord and Savior, then they are to be discounted.

(also reminds me of those talking about being tormented by aliens - when they invoke the name of Jesus, the visions flee away)

[Curious]

My mother had such an experience when she nearly died of polio at 18 years old. She was unconscious, in hospital, the medical team panicking as she had stopped breathing. She found herself looking down at herself from above, floating under the ceiling. She could clearly see and hear the medical people discussing her situation, working at trying to revive her. She accurately noted all the words spoken, including her very high temperature.

Her experience only went that far, no tunnels or bright lights. Also, she has only ever talked about it once or twice. It remained a very personal matter that she mostly kept to herself. She said she did feel very calm at the time, not scared. Her faith in God was not very deep though, I don't think.

I've heard stories of people seeming to 'jump out of their bodies' during a serious trauma like a car accident for example. Momentarily only, with the experience living on as a strange memory associated with the incident, without any clear explanation. That's potentially another related mystery!

Its a subject that will remain debated, yet I wonder what Lazarus and others that Jesus raised from the dead may have had to say about their own experience. It's not recorded in the bible, but may well have been discussed at the time.

[OBW]

While there are some accounts that provide some kind of details that the person could not have known, most appear to be based on the culture/religion that the person is trained in or grew up with. Accounts given in Far Eastern locations tend to be recounted in terms of the imagery of Hinduism or other local religion.

Not saying there are no real cases. But that there are too many that result in almost cult-like belief and/or awe, or draw people to the story and the person rather than to Christ.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

While there are some accounts that provide some kind of details that the person could not have known, most appear to be based on the culture/religion that the person is trained in or grew up with. Accounts given in Far Eastern locations tend to be recounted in terms of the imagery of Hinduism or other local religion.

Not saying there are no real cases. But that there are too many that result in almost cult-like belief and/or awe, or draw people to the story and the person rather than to Christ.

This is an oft-repeated disclaimer concerning near-death experiences.

Everyone views events thru the lens of their own acquired life learning and experiences. That is completely normal. As an engineer, I remember events often quite differently than my wife, though we both experienced the same thing.

I tend to place greater credibility on their actual witness. When people recount events, like what was happening in the next room, or learning things which they had never known before, all corroborated with the truth, I find their stories quite believable.

And to take a step further, these accounts gathered together provide overwhelming evidence of an after life. If an after life exists, then the existence of God as the creator of all things is irrefutable. These stories of near death experiences are definitely supported by the Bible.

But, as with everything in this life, there will be counterfeits and wild stories from those with mental illness or drug-induced psychosis. The bad and the false do not negate the true and the good.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The bad and the false do not negate the true and the good.

But since we are talking about faith and not logical, verifiable certainty, the true do not prove anything. At best, they are comfort to the one who got the vision, or possibly to a few close to that person. As stories to underpin a gospel message, they almost point to a pseudo-Christian religion that rests on visions and feelings rather than faith in the work of Christ.

[awareness]

Like Nee told Lee : "Christians lie."

The boy who didn't come back from heaven: inside a bestseller's 'deception'
"the “Burpo-Malarkey doctrine”. Johnson believed that Colton Burpo, whose story was told in the hugely popular Heaven is for Real, and Alex Malarkey, who had co-written The Boy Who Came Back From Heaven, drew false pictures of heaven in their books."

https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...-alex-malarkey

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

But since we are talking about faith and not logical, verifiable certainty, the true do not prove anything. At best, they are comfort to the one who got the vision, or possibly to a few close to that person. As stories to underpin a gospel message, they almost point to a pseudo-Christian religion that rests on visions and feelings rather than faith in the work of Christ.

We are not talking about "logical, verifiable certainty." That belongs in a high school chemistry class. The Bible, and also our law courts, always deals with witnesses, and their credible witness or testimony. Is the faith and work of Christ a "logical verifiable certainty?" Can the person and work of Christ be scientifically proven? Hardly.

The bible does require two witnesses. Two credible witnesses. How did Colton Burpo know that he had a sister? That his mother had a miscarriage? Were there credible witnesses? I say there are, his sister and his mother. If Colton says he has a sister, and his mother never has a miscarriage, then we don't believe him. But now we have two reliable witnesses, both providing independent corroboration.

The Malarkey situation is complicated by an unbelieving mother, which does not negate the story. The boy's brother, father, and grandfather have all confirmed events in his testimony. The Malarkey boy is not the first person I have heard of who has denied his testimony of faith. It's sad, but understandable. Of course, all unbelievers love stories like this. The Bible is filled with these stories too.

Our faith comes to us by other witnesses. Faith comes by hearing these witnesses. Some of them have written scripture. Some have given us their teachings, or their testimonies. The Holy Spirit is a witness also to our faith. Nature and creation are witnesses. Faith is simply believing these good reports.

Those who demand "logical verifiable certainty" are those who have rejected God and His ways. God has demanded that we believe Him. Faith is the way of salvation. Those who refuse to believe, generally use science, what Paul calls "falsely named knowledge," as a false god to worship and trust, instead of trusting and worshiping the only true God.

[HERn]

I was at my cousin's house at 15 years old. We were sniffing some kind of aerosol in his bedroom. I remember punching a hole in the can and breathing it in. I remember looking down on myself from the ceiling and seeing myself on the floor. My cousin was blowing breath in my mouth and I woke up.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by HERn

I was at my cousin's house at 15 years old. We were sniffing some kind of aerosol in his bedroom. I remember punching a hole in the can and breathing it in. I remember looking down on myself from the ceiling and seeing myself on the floor. My cousin was blowing breath in my mouth and I woke up.

What do you think happened? Merely hallucinations? What did your cousin say?

[Curious]

Originally Posted by HERn

I was at my cousin's house at 15 years old. We were sniffing some kind of aerosol in his bedroom. I remember punching a hole in the can and breathing it in. I remember looking down on myself from the ceiling and seeing myself on the floor. My cousin was blowing breath in my mouth and I woke up.

I do suspect that if many people were interviewed, it might be surprising how many may have had some experience like yours, HERn, and like my mother's. Where a person has stopped breathing or been physically compromised to the point of vital signs beginning to shut down. These 'out of body' snippets are the beginning stage of the accounts referred to by Raptor. They are not drug induced or mental duress induced, but physical shut down induced, it would seem to me. So related to physical death. This lends to me taking these as credible, literal descriptions of something that's really happening. Just like the feeling of pressure that builds when a person holds their breath. As straightforward and universally consistent as that.

In my opinion, HERn had a lucky escape that day, at 15 years old. As my mother, that she was revived and had a full recovery. Are we aware when we leave our bodies at the point of death? The bible doesn't clarify. So we don't really know. We can just each have our own opinion about it.

[Curious]

Here is one more testimony of a person's experience of dying and coming back to life after having experienced enough in the process that they returned to this life a beleiver.

https://youtu.be/2E_-41J0q_Q in Jesus.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Ohio

What do you think happened? Merely hallucinations? What did your cousin say?

Well, being an evangelical protestant I believe in the supernatural. I believe that at death something (soul/spirit) leaves the body and continues to exist.

I don't know if I had an "out of the body experience" or maybe my mind was in a dream-like state where I was imagining things.

My cousin said I stopped breathing.

I don't think these experiences make anybody special or more connected to God or more aware of spiritual things.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by HERn

I don't think these experiences make anybody special or more connected to God or more aware of spiritual things.

I think the experience depends on the person, and what happened. Apostle Paul spoke briefly of his experience (2 Cor 12:2-4) 14 years after he was stoned dead, dragged thru the city of Lystra, (Acts 14:19) and brought back to life.

I have also read stories about those who saw horrible scenes, and then repented to God as soon as they came to.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Curious

My mother had such an experience when she nearly died of polio at 18 years old. She was unconscious, in hospital, the medical team panicking as she had stopped breathing. She found herself looking down at herself from above, floating under the ceiling. She could clearly see and hear the medical people discussing her situation, working at trying to revive her. She accurately noted all the words spoken, including her very high temperature.

An account my wife had passed on to me was her mother's experience. She was bitten by a centipede and nearly died.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by HERn

Well, being an evangelical protestant I believe in the supernatural. I believe that at death something (soul/spirit) leaves the body and continues to exist.

Even now many years later I can't dismiss this as purely coincidental.
December 15 1996 in my dream that evening:
I was out to dinner with my maternal grandmother. There were other relatives there too. As it came time to leave my grandmother said goodbye. She was going with the other relatives. I could not go with them.
December 16, 1996 after being home from work my mom called to tell me my grandmother had died. It was not until that moment I remembered that dream. Relatives in my dream, they have all been dead. None of my living relatives were in my dream.

[countmeworthy]

Well. I am not sure if my story qualifies as a near death experience but I am compelled to share it nonetheless.

The day before my friend’s father passed away in the hospital, he looked at the entrance door into his room. Then he called out his deceased son’s name. His daughter said “what did you say dad?” He slowly looked at her and repeated his son’s name. She asked “What about him?” He answered “ tomorrow he and I are leaving.”

The next evening he passed away. I was with my friend and her mom at his bedside. But moments before he passed away, while he had his eyes closed which were for most of the day and wearing an oxygen mask, he opened his eyes and turned his head to look at his wife one last time. They locked eyes, then he slowly turned his head again to look straight.

My friend then exclaimed “CAROL!!! I can feel his spirit trying to leave his body!!!”

The nurse quickly asked / told his wife she was going to remove the oxygen mask. And as she did, he was gone.

Something else that has puzzled me.

In the early morning before he passed, his daughter my friend called me from the hospital to tell me her dad had taken a turn for the worst. I rushed to the hospital and when I entered his room with all the family there, I went to his bedside and said ‘Hi Mr A, I’m here!’ He acknowledged me by quickly and swiftly by raising his arm straight up in the air! He did not do that with anyone else..go figure!

He passed away late that evening.
(The man, btw loved me as a second daughter and for 5 months, I went to the hospital every day. It should be noted, it was not easy for me, as my body was riddled in arthritic pain, making it hard for me to wal. Still I prayed over him, prayed with him and ministered as best I could. He would have a fit if I would not show up.)

This may not have been a near death experience ... but it was a personal
unusual experience for me surrounding a death.

[Curious]

In response to these personal testimonies I would like to add some more comment. Just mt own personal thoughts on it all.

As people approach their own demise, many become more spiritually in tune. In Gods mercy He draws near to those for whom heaven is their destiny, and people often begin to engage in this awareness and start to speak from it, saying unusual things and having a different perspective than before, as in Countmeworthy’s testimony. I think if we asked around, we would be amazed at how many people have had some experience of observing this.

Near death experiences. The reason I like Ian McCormack’s is that he testifies of needing to forgive, as he prayed in the ambulance as the Lord’s prayer came to him. And when He saw Jesus he could not stop repenting of his sins, telling Him all the reasons he did not deserve to be there. Unlike Adam who tried to lie and hide as he stood in Gods presence.

This, to me is the right theology. When we get close to Jesus, we become aware of our own uncleanness. The two things missing from the LRM headquarters is exactly these things. No repentance and no forgiveness of others. Pride blocks one from forgiving others, the idea we are better than them so have the right to sit in judgement, which is the same source that blocks repentance. This indicates no actual response to God’s presence among them, or a resistant attitude, like Adam. The simple idea that I am a sinner saved by grace is the foundation to repent AND forgive. They are very linked to each other as outflowing from the same inner attitude of realistic humility. LC headquaters therefore don’t have the foundation of relationship with God in evidence. In fact, they demonstrate great resistance to both forgiveness and repentance. In contrast, it’s one of the very strongest elements of testimony in the accounts I find with genuine near-death experiences, and any other geniune encounter with God..

I did see Jesus once in a dream. The earth shook under me, in the dream, and I felt unclean and I wanted to hide. He was shorter and skinnier than I thought, humble and simply attired, and his skin more sun-exposed than I expected. But He had such a purity of holiness that was so powerful. It was not a near-death experience, just a dream during a Christian retreat weekend.

During my meetings with my local LC, I wondered about their appreciation of God’s Holiness. It was never spoken about, and so I looked in their songbook. On the contents page I found headings for WL’s doctrines, with long lists of songs for those headings, but not much on the subject of Gods holiness. Gods Holiness was evident in my dream and awareness of what Holiness is, comes by revelation in some form I think. And to those seeking Him from the heart.

As an aside, another point from IMcC’s testimony explains why so few people are resurrected from the dead…..once you see the new earth before you, who would want to come back??? IMcC didn’t.

So far we have discussed the near physical death of people and the experience of being outside their body, or the person seeming to be engaged in two realms at once and speaking from one into the other, unable to clearly discern between them.

The other big aspect of their experience, is the life-changing revelation that these people relate.

The reference to Paul speaking of a revelation that he does not detail, but links in to the account of him being stoned and left for dead 14 years earlier, was very interesting to me. Co-incidentally, I found myself reading in the bible, Exodus 33:12 -34 1-10, where Moses speaks very strongly to God…. ‘don’t make me lead this people without giving me a revelation of your glory, to give me the strength and vision to carry on with this humanly impossible task you have set before me to accomplish.’ (my paraphrase)

What is the value of having direct revelations? They exist for the people of God all through the OT, and NT. Some think that as we have the written word, (the bible), revelations are not for now. They are nothing but deceptions. Yet they persist, and have enabled Muslims, Jews, Buddhist Monks, Satanists and New Agers, and many others, to forge determination to follow Him, no matter the consequence. A member of the Government in Iran, an inter-generational-Christian-hater and devout Muslim at the time, can speak of nothing but His gratitude that he has come to know and follow Jesus Christ today. These people have dramatic conversion stories. They inevitably involve some supernatural encounter with God or demons/evil, or both.

Moses needed something deep to reassure him that he could trust God, as otherwise he would not be able to carry out his responsibility to the people. God responded and gave him an experience where he could perceive His goodness as He passed by. (As God didn’t perform an act of goodness as He passed by) These direct revelations, weather in a near-death experience or through other times that we might be in emotional turmoil, are hugely helpful in our journey of faith. (Even King Nebuchadnezzer was churned up inside wondering about the long-term future of the world when God provided the prophetic dream to him. God was responding to Neb’s call of the heart, He was answering Neb’s question).

God talks of the blind and deaf state of Israel when they turn away from Him. This is not physical non-functioning senses, it is the spiritual blind, deaf, asleep state. When we are spiritually awake and alert, that’s when we can be true watchmen-on-the-wall. And God may give us experiences of insight into the spiritual world, that will always be personal, empowering to our faith, and subjective in detail, but affirming to core truth of the bible.

I ‘sensed’ alot that was off as I met with the LC people that I came into contact with, slowly and over time. It all turned out to be accurate and truth. Yet one evening we were contemplating a scripture together, contributing in spontaneous sequence. One LCer cut right in, with an agenda against another person that they were inserting, spiritualizing, rather than having a frank, direct conversation, as per LC culture. I could sense that they had cut across a flow that was in the Holy Spirit, before I saw what they were actually doing. That is possibly a milder form of direct revelation, which turned out to be reliable and useful in the long run, but surprising at the time.

The above is just my opinions and thoughts about this subject. I’m not an expert, and I don’t expect to be right about everything, just thoughts, observations and some conclusions coming from a ‘curious’ mind!

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Apostle Paul spoke briefly of his experience (2 Cor 12:2-4) 14 years after he was stoned dead, dragged thru the city of Lystra, (Acts 14:19) and brought back to life.

This is a minor question in this whole topic, but when I read the verses in 2 Cor 12, I would not say that it's Paul talking of himself being "caught up to the 3rd heaven". But you and almost every other Bible commentary I have read (which is just a handful) on the verses states it's Paul. I have heard of only one preacher say otherwise (that it's someone Paul knew, not Paul). How do we know it's Paul? It doesn't change anything either way, but I'm just confused.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

This is a minor question in this whole topic, but when I read the verses in 2 Cor 12, I would not say that it's Paul talking of himself being "caught up to the 3rd heaven". But you and almost every other Bible commentary I have read (which is just a handful) on the verses states it's Paul. I have heard of only one preacher say otherwise (that it's someone Paul knew, not Paul). How do we know it's Paul? It doesn't change anything either way, but I'm just confused.

The scripture is fairly compelling. The entire letter is autobiographical in nature, with Paul's extended defenses of both the New Testament and its ministers, using himself as a pattern. In chapter 11 Paul confronts head-on the false ministers, the agents of Satan, and the Corinthians pitiful deception by them. Paul is directly defending himself against these so-called super-apostles who have brought another gospel to the Gentile churches he had planted. He is now forced to boast of his own apostleship, yet voices the dangers in doing what the false ones have also done, by their vain boasting.

In chapter 11 Paul addresses his sacrifices and sufferings for the gospel. Only a true NT minister could endure what he has. Next he decides to mention visions and revelations of the Lord. In I C. 15.8 he says he has seen the Lord, with obvious reference to his conversion on the road to Damascus. Here, however, he relates his travels into Paradise and the Third Heavens, a Hebrew idiom referring to the place of the throne of God. Then Paul said he was boasting of such a one, i.e. himself in the Spirit.

Initially I thought this probably referred to the time of his salvation, but the mention of 14 years proves that not to be the case. Most surmise that Paul was writing here in the early 60's. This event Paul spoke of may correspond to when he was stoned in Lystra in the late 40's. (Acts 14.19) The crowds stoned him and dragged him outside the city. Their hands were all over his body. So I seriously doubt that if Paul still had a heartbeat or was breathing, the crowds instigated by the Jews would have left him. Everyone thought he was dead. He was! That's what happens when the Jews stone someone. (Remember the stoning of Stephen in Acts 7?) I speculate this was when Paul experienced the visions of Paradise and Heaven.

Considering the head injuries and concussion Paul most surely endured, it is understandable Paul would question whether he was even in his body or not. He was also commanded not to speak of what he had heard. Hence, Paul speaks in the third person, "I know a man in Christ."