God doesn't care for right and wrong, only life

[Trapped]

Having seen the title of this post repeated in some of the LCer responses to Jo Casteel's letter, as well as having heard it my whole life, as well as personally experiencing in the church the LC culture that truly DOESN'T care about right or wrong, good or evil, actual justice or righteousness, making things right, standing up for those who are being abused, calling out what is blatantly wrong, correcting the leadership's sinful and hurtful actions, but only cares for "life" (which I have come to conclude is actually a synonym for "image" or "appearance" and is simply a false sense that there are no problems because the LC refuses to acknowledge them), I am getting more and more angry about this false teaching. Obviously God cares about right and wrong. God IS good. Don't tell me he doesn't care about good and evil, right and wrong. DON'T TELL ME GOOD AND EVIL ARE "FROM THE SAME TREE".

1. What is the judgment seat if not caring about right and wrong?
2. WHAT IS GOD SENDING HIS SON JESUS TO DIE FOR US IF RIGHT AND WRONG DIDN'T MATTER TO HIM? WHY DIDN'T GOD JUST "CARE FOR LIFE" AND "COVER" US?
3. What then are the 600+ commandments in the OT?
4. What then are the 10 commandments? The two greatest commandments?
5. What was Jesus releasing the oppressed and the captives and the sick if not caring about right and wrong?

What I'm looking for are specific Bible stories or verses to refute this twisted claim that God doesn't care for right and wrong. I feel myself getting Hulk-furious about this (as the all-caps may indicate....sorry) and I need some input from others to help eviscerate this thought in me once and for all.

Thanks for any help.

Trapped

[Jo S]

Trapped, your hunch is right. The issue is you're looking at the wrong source to explain what you're seeing.

This belief isn't biblical at all meaning it's neither condoned nor condemned. Practically speaking it's simply self-help therapy, spiritually speaking it's mysticism. It's more often referred to as "the power of positive thinking" and it is a dissociating technique which the LC's use and conceal in biblical language.

Of course thinking positively isn't wrong, per se, but when you start neglecting inconvenient things like sin and repentance it becomes a real issue to someone seeking the truth.

Think biblically/realistically and you should be fine.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Trapped

What I'm looking for are specific Bible stories or verses to refute this twisted claim that God doesn't care for right and wrong. I feel myself getting Hulk-furious about this (as the all-caps may indicate....sorry) and I need some input from others to help eviscerate this thought in me once and for all.

Thanks for any help.

Trapped

Hey Trapped, Jesus got Hulk furious when He caught the money changers turning His Fathers house into a market place. I'm pretty sure that story refutes this LC nonsense.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Hey Trapped, Jesus got Hulk furious when He caught the money changers turning His Fathers house into a market place. I'm pretty sure that story refutes this LC nonsense.

Jesus commanded us to judge righteously (John 7:24). What would the point of this scripture be if discerning right and wrong wasn't a concern to a Christian?

[Nell]

This is where Lee’s “Life” doctrine came from:

Genesis 2:9 And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

If you do a word search, it’s interesting that the “tree of knowledge” appears in the Bible only twice. And at that, in these two verses, it doesn’t say “God doesn’t care” for “good and evil” or “right and wrong” (which the Lee teaching morphed into). Gen. 2:9 acknowledges the existence of the tree of knowledge and in Gen. 2:17 it says not to eat of the tree of “knowledge of good and evil.”

As noted, Trapped, there is overwhelming accounts of doing just that: defining good and evil; of God’s view of good and evil, more importantly, the implications of good and evil in humanity. Lee teaching is another “bury your head in the sand” teaching regarding good and evil in order to manipulate the faithful into blind obedience to the doctrines of Lee. The Bible is pretty clear about what is good and evil, but where is “life” defined in the Bible? How does that compare with “Life” in the Book of Lee? “Life” is whatever Lee said it was, or, “Life” is “Lee”.

Here’s a pretty good verse about good and evil:
Isaiah 5:20 Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter!

Nell

[NewManLiving]

From Genesis 1:10 God “Saw that it was good” when describing his creation. God cared about good and evil “In The Beginning”.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Trapped

What I'm looking for are specific Bible stories or verses to refute this twisted claim that God doesn't care for right and wrong. I feel myself getting Hulk-furious about this (as the all-caps may indicate....sorry) and I need some input from others to help eviscerate this thought in me once and for all.

Thanks for any help.

Trapped

What about the Bible story in Genesis about the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Obviously their teaching is based on an erroneous understanding of this story.

1. God created this tree and in God there is no darkness at all. The tree is not evil, it is good. No one denies that it is a tree to make one wise.

So Witness Lee calling it the "tree of death" is designed to equate it with evil, but it is impossible for God to create something that is evil.

When Adam and Eve ate from this tree they were violating the only commandment of God that they had. If God is going to give us free will that means there has to be the possibility that we would violate His commands. Therefore you cannot have free will without this tree.

But this creates a problem. If you have free will you can also have Hitler. This tree solves that problem. The minute someone chooses to violate God's command their is a major paradigm shift. We go from being eternal souls to having a time limit. 70 years has been the standard life expectancy since that day.

Now I have asked numerous people and I have yet to find anyone who feels killing someone in a video game is "evil" or "criminal". So do the math, if 2/613,000 is so minor as to not be evil, why is 70yrs/eternity any different?

The Bible says not to fear the person that can kill the body but not the soul, rather fear the one that after the body is killed can then cast the soul into eternal perdition. From the viewpoint of eternity your physical body is no more real than the pixels in the video game.

But it is a tree that makes you wise. Just like the computer simulation of flying an airplane is used to train pilots, chess programs are used to train chess players, etc. No one in this life, not WL, not PL, not Hitler can harm your soul or spirit. They can only harm things that are temporal and will disappear. Yet, in this life we can get trained to rule and reign with Christ, to know the difference between good and evil.

[Ohio]

Trapped, notice how you are looking for scripture to refute this nonsense, when they have no verses to support it.

This teaching is totally manipulative. It protects rotten leaders from accountability. Did you know that this was Philip Lee's favorite saying? He could go on molesting the volunteer staff saying, "we only care for life."

[Raptor]

I believe the principles behind the ToL and the TKGE and their significance are very enlightening, fundamental, and useful to understand our christian walk and the way God takes to accomplish His heart's desire. But the problem I see is people using these principles by reducing them to a simple slogan and twisting them, craftily misapplying them to situations in ways that either blatantly or subtly contradict God´s word.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Raptor

I believe the principles behind the ToL and the TKGE and their significance are very enlightening, fundamental, and useful to understand our christian walk and the way God takes to accomplish His heart's desire. But the problem I see is people using these principles by reducing them to a simple slogan and twisting them, craftily misapplying them to situations in ways that either blatantly or subtly contradict God´s word.

I definitely agree. For years I heard this kind of talk and inwardly processed it as "Don't sweat the small stuff." As some have said, "The main thing is to keep the Main Thing the main thing."

Then, after 30 years as a loyal foot-soldier in the recovery believing that Lee and LSM were as "pure as the driven snow," I learned what really happened after the "New Way." How John Ingalls and others were only trying to protect the saints from the likes of that predator Philip Lee, and how WL had always protected his reprobate boys, and then smeared the reputations of any man of God who would stand up for the Lord and His people.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Having seen the title of this post repeated in some of the LCer responses to Jo Casteel's letter, as well as having heard it my whole life, as well as personally experiencing in the church the LC culture that truly DOESN'T care about right or wrong, good or evil, actual justice or righteousness, making things right, standing up for those who are being abused, calling out what is blatantly wrong, correcting the leadership's sinful and hurtful actions, but only cares for "life" (which I have come to conclude is actually a synonym for "image" or "appearance" and is simply a false sense that there are no problems because the LC refuses to acknowledge them), I am getting more and more angry about this false teaching. Obviously God cares about right and wrong. God IS good. Don't tell me he doesn't care about good and evil, right and wrong. DON'T TELL ME GOOD AND EVIL ARE "FROM THE SAME TREE".

Trapped, it should also be noted that focusing on right and wrong, good and evil through the lens of self-righteousness can lead you down a very dark path. On the extreme end of that, think the crusades and the inquisition. Practically speaking, you risk becoming self-justifying and vindictive.

Take the story of the women caught in adultery. The Jews saw the evil of the women clearly but because of their hypocrisy, their judgment was tainted.

Christ however didn't simply ignore the sin of the women, he addressed it, but he also showed the women mercy.

In the same way a Christian should judge sin, but also extend mercy.

In other words, the point isn't to ignore or condemn and waver between extremes. You can be indignant toward sin, but also have your hand stretched out toward those that hurt you. That's what God did for all of us while we were still sinners and enemies of the truth by sending His Son.

It's not easy, but it's the Christian walk. If you find yourself struggling with this, it's because there's something that first needs to be addressed in your own life.

This is also why people in places like the Local Churches leave confused. They are taught how to be indifferent through doctrine and how to condemn through example but they are not taught the truth (Matthew 9:13).

This is ambiguity or "spirit" at its finest...

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Trapped

What I'm looking for are specific Bible stories or verses to refute this twisted claim that God doesn't care for right and wrong. I feel myself getting Hulk-furious about this (as the all-caps may indicate....sorry) and I need some input from others to help eviscerate this thought in me once and for all.

Trapped

Be therefore imitators of God, as beloved children; and walk in love, even as Christ also loved us and gave Himself up for us, an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling savor. But fornication and all uncleanness or greediness, let it not even be named among you, as is fitting for saints, and obscenity and foolish talking or sly, filthy jesting, which are not becoming, but rather the giving of thanks. For this you realize, knowing that every fornicator or unclean person or greedy person (who is an idolater) has no inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Let no one deceive you with vain words, for because of these things the wrath of God is coming upon the sons of disobedience. Therefore do not be partakers with them; For you were once darkness but are now light in the Lord; walk as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness and righteousness and truth), proving what is well pleasing to the Lord. and do not participate in the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather even reprove them. For the things which are done by them in secret it is shameful even to speak of. But all things which are reproved are made manifest by the light; for everything that makes manifest is light.

Ephesians 5:1-13

[Trapped]

Nell and ZNP, I think I agree that Lee's incredibly erroneous teaching about the garden of Eden seems to be the major source of this saying.

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil wasn't death. It was good for food and it made you like God, knowing good and evil, so under no logical extrapolation could the tree itself be death or signify death. It was a tree and God forbid eating of it. I personally think the tree was named what it was precisely because it was the forbidden one. If you eat of a non-forbidden tree, you wouldn't get the same experiential knowledge of good and evil as you do eating from the forbidden one, because you haven't participated directly in the evil of disobeying God in order to partake of it.

The tree wasn't death. So knowledge, good, and evil, are not death. There is no "x = death" in the garden. It is disobeying which brings in the punishment of death (being cut off from the tree of life) as the consequence.

God cared so much for right and wrong that He drove man out of the garden so we wouldn't have access to the tree of life and live forever in a sinful state of having committed un-redeemed wrong. In fact if God didn't care for right and wrong and in that situation only cared for life, the worst possible scenario would have resulted: a fallen, sinful, disobedient creature that has unrestricted access to eternal life.

I see how easy it is to make it about "the two trees" and "choose life or choose death". I understand the temptation to boil it down to that. But that is not the story. That is a deviation from the actual story. And making it that story and propagating the forced application of that false principle creates some hellish situations where wrong and evil are allowed to run unchecked and unchallenged while ignoring it and "see/hear/say no evil, only care for life, lalalalaaaaaa" with your fingers in your ears cause almost irreparable damage to many, many people.

Ohio, you're right they don't have verses to support it, but they apply the analogy "you are on the wrong tree" (which is actually a very difficult starting point in trying to dismantle that thought) and the Noah scenario. You would be surprised (okay, maybe you wouldn't, but I certainly have been surprised) at how tightly LCers hang on to these "infallible" interpretations. It is almost impossible to get them to see the verses are saying something different.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Nell and ZNP
The tree of the knowledge of good and evil wasn't death. It was good for food and it made you like God, knowing good and evil, so under no logical extrapolation could the tree itself be death or signify death. .

..."but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die."
Gen. 2:17

[aron]

Jo Casteel on FB:

They speak so much about only caring for "life" but in recent years I really started noticing how much oppression, darkness, and anger there was in the speaking. I just listened to message 5 from last weeks semi-annual on the "The Water for Impurity." The ENTIRE message was on death and rebellion. It was awful. The saints are under so much fear and oppression.

Here is one direct quote from Mark Raabe, "Don’t listen to speaking that has the element of death. Don’t listen to any speaking that has the element of rebellion. If you do and you might even say, well it’s true. You know what? Like I told you, death has good, evil, and knowledge. You say, It’s factual…yeah part of what the devil spoke to Eve was factual and part of it wasn’t. That’s the way death comes. Death comes in a sneaky way. Death comes in a camouflaged way. You say, well there’s an element of truth to that? Yeah, there’s also an element of death and an element of rebellion. If you want that, you just take in that kind of speaking into your vessel, you will be dead. And, let me tell you, somebody is going to have to spend some time to try to help you out of that death. You can’t get out of it quickly. I just ask you, I know too many saints. Nobody poisoned them. They poisoned themselves. Reading things that they know will cause death. Taking things in that they know includes death and rebellion. Lets for this purpose, let’s close our vessel and tie down the lid. The only thing we let in is life. We let the water in and we don’t let any death in.”

So I guess we can re-write Paul's epistle to the Philippians. Paul wrote, "Finally, brothers, whatever things are true, whatever things are honorable, whatever things are right, whatever things are pure, whatever things are pleasing, whatever things are commendable, if there is any excellence of character and if anything praiseworthy, think about these things." ~Phil 4:8

They don't care for what is true or what is right, only for the "sense of life", which is of course whatever the Blendeds say it is. And hold on to your hats, because like Witness Lee's "flows", "life" can be whatever they need it to be today.
_____________________________________________

Jesus, on the other hand, consistently "went around doing good". ~Acts 10:38 - remember that's the Author of life. I'd stick with Jesus' example, as shared by Peter's gospel, versus some one's subjective, nebulous, and self-serving sense of "life". I'll take Peter's first-person account, his "low gospel" in Acts, over Witness Lee's "High gospel" derived from the NT epistles.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Raptor

..."but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die."
Gen. 2:17

The day you eat of it = the day you disobeyed God's command.

Disobedience = rebellion = sin. The wages of sin is death.

It wasn't the tree that was death, but eating of it in disobedience to God.

That said we can learn a lot from our errors and mistakes. Trial and error is time tested way of learning wisdom.

What the tree does is protect the created world from the potential harm caused by someone who is in rebellion to God.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Raptor

..."but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil; for in the day that you eat of it, you will surely die."
Gen. 2:17

Yes, I was thinking of that verse as I wrote the sentence you quoted and its my fault I didn't stop to make myself more clear. What I should have said is something like "under no logical conclusion could the nature of the tree itself be concluded to be death." Death wasn't an "intrinsic element" of the tree. Death was the punishment for disobedience.

If your mom bakes a cake and says "don't eat this cake before dinner or you're dead meat".....it's not the cake itself that makes you dead meat, it's your disobeying and taking of it that makes you dead meat.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Trapped

The tree of the knowledge of good and evil wasn't death. It was good for food and it made you like God, knowing good and evil, so under no logical extrapolation could the tree itself be death or signify death. It was a tree and God forbid eating of it.

This is how I see it, too. Knowledge of good and evil really means having God's level of knowledge of these things.

God wanted us to find guidance through relationship with him. The tree of knowledge of good and evil means you don't need this relationship. So it is the Tree of Independence from God. It is the same tree Satan ate from, which is why he recommended it.

The knowledge of good and evil the tree represented was not just general knowing, for example, that love is good and killing is bad. It was moral knowledge of EVERYTHING, a knowledge with no "gray areas"--even the knowledge of when love is bad and killing is good. To subsist independently and successfully with such knowledge one must have the power and the emotional capability to handle it. In short, one must effectively be God. God never intended us to be become like him by such a path, and though our knowledge will increase through the proper path of knowing him, it will probably never reach such a level.

So knowledge of good and evil of the kind the tree represented is not bad per se, it was just something that was not intended for us.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Jo S

In other words, the point isn't to ignore or condemn and waver between extremes. You can be indignant toward sin, but also have your hand stretched out toward those that hurt you. That's what God did for all of us while we were still sinners and enemies of the truth by sending His Son.

It's not easy, but it's the Christian walk. If you find yourself struggling with this, it's because there's something that first needs to be addressed in your own life.

Thanks for your response, and I don't necessarily want to focus in on the one thing you said that I disagree with, but it's been a couple days and I keep feeling to return to this point.

My guess is you meant well with the comment I underlined, but based on my own experience it just comes too close to sounding like "if you can't forgive then the problem is you" for me to let it pass.

Of course I grant that we all have our own issues and we need to ask the Lord to shine on us. But struggling with something doesn't mean I am the problem. It just means its a struggle. It means someone totally took you off guard and poured hot acid on you and you are still burning and gasping for breath a year later. Struggling with the clanging trauma and repercussions of some of the penetrating pain that some people experience doesn't mean that there is some deficiency in them at all. It just means that life is hard and we are human and it takes time to get repaired. I'm glad Jesus and Stephen could ask God to forgive the ones taking their life literally as their lives were being taken, but just because the rest of us can't do that immediately doesn't mean we need extra blame heaped on our head. If I stretch my hand out to some of the people who hurt me they would use that opportunity to finish the job and completely throw me off the cliff. Sometimes the other person's hands are Edward Scissorhands. I ain't touching that.

Pain is painful. Hurt hurts. I've prayed many times for my enemies (who I didn't want to be my enemies but that is what they wanted) to be blessed and it didn't magically make me love them or diminish the sting.

I do take the rest of your response. I certainly don't want to be judging anything through a self-righteous lens. I only want to stay in the sphere of judging rightly. Jesus told us to take the beam out of our own eye BEFORE we judge others, 1) so we wouldn't be hypocrites, and 2) so we can see clearly to judge rightly and help them deal with their own problem. He didn't say leave their speck alone. Those verses aren't a command not to judge, but how to judge. I'm interested in the judging rightly, with a humble heart to bring situations to the Lord to see if He wants me to judge or to drop it. It's a new thought for me that we are allowed to say "hey that's not right!" sometimes.

Trapped

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Thanks for your response, and I don't necessarily want to focus in on the one thing you said that I disagree with, but it's been a couple days and I keep feeling to return to this point.

My guess is you meant well with the comment I underlined, but based on my own experience it just comes too close to sounding like "if you can't forgive then the problem is you" for me to let it pass.

I too struggle with forgiving those who hurt me decades ago, thru endless lies damaging both my reputation and permanent injury to those I love. Those who have never been hurt so deeply can all too easily comment on others who have.

Trapped, hopefully you can understand my thought here. I view forgiveness almost like I view marriage. Marriage is a decision for life, filled with all sorts of feelings -- the good, the bad, and the ugly. Marriage is a decision made once for all. You enter assuming there is no exit. Same with the decision to forgive. I decided to forgive certain ones long ago because it was the right thing to do. It was commanded by God, and it was healthy for my life. That doesn't mean that I will ever forget the pain, or be blind to the damages still to this day. In eternity I will still remember what happened to me, and that He also forgave me because I forgave others. In a sense I have tasted a bit of the pain He endured as He forgave us all. Forgiveness means that I forgave them, I released them from their debts. I obeyed Him who said, "vengeance is mine, I will repay." I also do my best to cope with the present pains thru His grace. Hopefully, like marriage, there will be good times, but regardless I will never "unforgive." And just because I still have memories and pain in my heart from time to time, does not mean I have not forgiven them. Forgiveness is not forgetfulness. Forgiveness is the release of the debts they owe me, and the release of those debts owed brings freedom and the Father's smile.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I too struggle with forgiving those who hurt me decades ago, thru endless lies damaging both my reputation and permanent injury to those I love. Those who have never been hurt so deeply can all too easily comment on others who have.

Trapped, hopefully you can understand my thought here. I view forgiveness almost like I view marriage. Marriage is a decision for life, filled with all sorts of feelings -- the good, the bad, and the ugly. Marriage is a decision made once for all. You enter assuming there is no exit. Same with the decision to forgive. I decided to forgive certain ones long ago because it was the right thing to do. It was commanded by God, and it was healthy for my life. That doesn't mean that I will ever forget the pain, or be blind to the damages still to this day. In eternity I will still remember what happened to me, and that He also forgave me because I forgave others. In a sense I have tasted a bit of the pain He endured as He forgave us all. Forgiveness means that I forgave them, I released them from their debts. I obeyed Him who said, "vengeance is mine, I will repay." I also do my best to cope with the present pains thru His grace. Hopefully, like marriage, there will be good times, but regardless I will never "unforgive." And just because I still have memories and pain in my heart from time to time, does not mean I have not forgiven them. Forgiveness is not forgetfulness. Forgiveness is the release of the debts they owe me, and the release of those debts owed brings freedom and the Father's smile.

Awesome Ohio! I'm going to print this out. I might copy it to FB, but I will be sure to acknowledge Ohio (unlike certain editors at LSM). To me you have a very healthy attitude.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Thanks for your response, and I don't necessarily want to focus in on the one thing you said that I disagree with, but it's been a couple days and I keep feeling to return to this point.

Originally Posted by Trapped

But struggling with something doesn't mean I am the problem. It just means its a struggle. It means someone totally took you off guard and poured hot acid on you and you are still burning and gasping for breath a year later.
Trapped

Trapped, it's obvious you're in pain. If you're looking for help, I'd like to try and offer whatever I can but it's challenging when all the details concerning your situation aren't known although I recall you mentioning "loss" in another thread.

It's sounds to me like whoever this person is their actions were deliberately meant to cause you harm. Do you know for an absolute fact that this was the case?

If you want you can PM me or if you don't feel comfortable sharing then I can say this; People do things that hurt us, sometimes it's blatant other times it's painful all around but necessary. Yet sometimes we unintentionally push others away by our own actions or inactions and project blame.

When Jesus died on the cross, those that placed their faith in him weren't rejoicing, they were devastated and hurt. They thought he was the one that would bring restoration right there and then. But they didn't understand that Jesus had to go so that the Holy Spirit could come, not only for them but also for us gentiles and future generations for the building of his church.

This is an example only to show that things may look one way on the surface but in reality can be something totally different. To know the heart of the Lord or another person in a situation takes righteous judgment and this is not so easy because you do have to remove the log from your own eye first in order to see things clearly. It could have been that it was the Lord's will for whatever happened to have happened for the sake of both parties. If you have faith in God, trust that He'll use it for good.

I didn't mention forgiveness in my post and I know the two (mercy and forgiveness) can be viewed as synonymous but when I used that term I meant in the way that we should do our part in extending goodwill toward all people, even the ones that hurt us knowing that we too need God's mercy each and every day. To be indignant toward sin yet have mercy toward people is a hard thing to do.

Who knows perhaps God has given you the space to reflect and adjust certain areas of your walk but no matter who's right or wrong we should all extend mercy otherwise by having any animosity toward others we aren't allowing for the space in our situation to allow for the Lord to work and forgiveness and healing to take place.

I hope that helps.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Yes, I was thinking of that verse as I wrote the sentence you quoted and its my fault I didn't stop to make myself more clear. What I should have said is something like "under no logical conclusion could the nature of the tree itself be concluded to be death." Death wasn't an "intrinsic element" of the tree. Death was the punishment for disobedience.

If your mom bakes a cake and says "don't eat this cake before dinner or you're dead meat".....it's not the cake itself that makes you dead meat, it's your disobeying and taking of it that makes you dead meat.

Yeah, Lee always says the tree of knowledge of good and evil is the embodiment of Satan. It's Satan himself who stays with Adam and Eve in Eden. So, Satan and Death are one. That's why the tree refers to death. This is what Lee teaches us.

[Truthseeker]

Life and death principle for Lee and LSM means the way to judge and quarantine their dissenters and the way to exalt and justify themselves with self righteous thought. They always brainwash their flock by teaching them that only their teaching, words and practices are life while sermons from non LSM including opinions of dissenters are death. Everything is of Lee and LSM is only life. Apart from this, all is considered as death. That's it. It's a device to manipulate and brainwash their flock to mindlessly obey them without any questions.

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Igzy

The tree of knowledge of good and evil the tree represented was not just general knowing, for example, that love is good and killing is bad. It was moral knowledge of EVERYTHING, a knowledge with no "gray areas"--even the knowledge of when love is bad and killing is good. To subsist independently and successfully with such knowledge one must have the power and the emotional capability to handle it. In short, one must effectively be God. God never intended us to be become like him by such a path, and though our knowledge will increase through the proper path of knowing him, it will probably never reach such a level.

So knowledge of good and evil of the kind the tree represented is not bad per se, it was just something that was not intended for us.

So, what's about Lee's teaching in 1994? God becomes Man so Man becomes God in life and nature? Does it come from the tree of knowledge?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

So, what's about Lee's teaching in 1994? God becomes Man so Man becomes God in life and nature? Does it come from the tree of knowledge?

There is no tree of knowledge. There is the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

It symbolizes seeking moral truth apart from God.

As for Man becoming God, that's probably a subject for another thread.

[OBW]

Knowledge of good and evil really means having God's level of knowledge of these things.

Several years ago, I heard someone describe it a little differently. It is not that we came to know good and evil (though we did do that), but that we came to rely on our own determination of what is good an evil rather than relying on God's. We rejected God's authority and substituted our own, no matter how closely-aligned we may think the two are.

Oddly, even when we apply what we think we understand of God's determination of good and evil, we tend to begin to judge others in a way that is not consistent with the commandments under which we now live. Specifically we cease to love others. No claim of "tough love" will cover the kind of hate-filled rhetoric that Christians too-often use on "sinners." From abortion, to LGBT, to illegal aliens, to speeders, to anyone not "like me," and on and on.

We may be right about at least some of what we determine to be evil, but for much of it, if there is judgment to be meted-out, it is God's job to do it, not ours. Our job remains to love others as ourselves.

This does not mean that there is no place for any kind of judgement. But for the most part, it would appear that the NT limits that to limited kinds of judgments of our "brother." Those who are of the household of faith. Therefore almost exclusively about the interactions of the saints. Not that actions of the world.

The government is for dealing with everything else. (And if you are part of the government, you may have a part in that.)

[Kevin]

There's an anonymous poster named 'Sonship' from a chess online game redhotpawn.com on the matter of two trees at the garden of Eden.

https://www.redhotpawn.com/forum/spi...the-way.177792

https://www.redhotpawn.com/forum/spi...n-fruit.158073