The Nature of faith...

[cityonahill]

No matter what type of background someone has, (LC or other) the nature of faith is such a deep and meaningful discussion to have...Since Igzy brought it up, I thought it would be an interesting topic.

We all know the Hebrews 11:1 definition of faith...I'm curious to know how people here on this board see faith.

My personal observations and convictions:

*Faith is not some metaphysical force that we control with formulated sayings and prayers...
*Faith is such a deep word, that I get frustrated when someone simply defines it as "faith=belief"
*I don't like to view faith as a cup that is filled to a certain "level"...


I like the example of the Roman Centurian who came to Jesus for his servant to be healed. He told Jesus not to come but to just heal the servant where he was at. Then Jesus replied by saying he has seen no greater faith in all of Israel!!! That's a huge deal!!!

*When I first read that story and others like it, I assumed that we need to have a certain "level" of faith before God can work like the Roman centurian did. However, I now realize that the Roman officer did not come to Jesus concious of his faith!!! Rather, He made Jesus the object of his faith.
That is my conviction. To always make sure I keep God as the object of my faith and not get so caught up in "stirring up" the gift myself.
If you look to yourself for blessing, healing, deliverance,...your own faith ultimately becomes the object of your faith...

I'm not saying to not believe that your thoughts and words have power! Because they do! I'm just saying to not set yourself up for a fall by turning your faith in God into some kind of metaphysical force that makes you more concious of how much faith you have rather than who your faith is in.

[Only by Grace]

I like the example of the Roman Centurian who came to Jesus for his servant to be healed. He told Jesus not to come but to just heal the servant where he was at. Then Jesus replied by saying he has seen no greater faith in all of Israel!!! That's a huge deal!!!

Awhile back I took a “spiritual gifts” test…and though I’m not necessarily putting a lot of stock in it, one of my “gifts,” according to the test, is the “gift of faith” (along with a few others). I pondered that, as I don’t consider myself as having more “faith” than others…but I do know this: I have not a doubt that God exists, and I have faith that He will be true to His character and true to His promises. That doesn’t mean that I necessarily get what I want, or what I pray for, but I have this profound confidence and trust in God Himself. This kind of faith that can be described in this verses (talking about Abraham):

Romans 4:20-24 Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22This is why "it was credited to him as righteousness." 23The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone, 24but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

A few years back one of my sons struggled with very serious substance abuse. I thought we might lose him. I agonized daily, crying out to God to save my son. I went to the scriptures and read where Jesus healed a demon-possessed boy, at the request of the son’s father (the son really didn’t have any requests on his own). I prayed to God to heal my son, just as Jesus healed that boy at the request of the boy’s father. I held to the fact that GOD IS ABLE…but I was not demanding, or even expecting God to heal my son, but rather, KNOWING that He could should He choose to do so. And thankfully, He did, and my son has been restored to health, sobriety, and the Lord. BUT, had God chosen to allow my son to flounder and not deliver Him, I do not believe my faith and trust in GOD would not have wavered. WHILE I was agonizing over my son, God fulfilled other promises: I will never leave you nor forsake you, I will not give you more that you can handle, if I submit my requests to God, the peace that passes all understanding will rule in your heart, and more.

My knowledge of Him as described by His Word, and as demonstrated by Jesus, cements my faith in Him: He is Who He is, He can do what He pleases, He is Love, He is Righteous, He is Jealous, He is Truth, He is Mercy, He is everywhere, He knows everything, He is the giver of good gifts, He answers prayer, and ON AND ON (praise God!!). I trust HIM, not what He chooses to do (or not do) for me…but thankfully, because of WHO He is, He does do good things for those who trust Him, and to GOD BE THE GLORY! Oh my, what a wonderful God we serve!

Two books that I read about 15 years ago really cemented this kind of faith for me: The Pursuit of God and Knowledge of the Holy, both by Tozer.

[Cal]

Thanks for starting this, city. I'm very busy this weekend, but I'd like to take part sometime next week.

[finallyprettyokay]

OnlybyGrace:

Thank you for your generosity in sharing this personal, real and easy to relate to story about your son. I have often thought about the verse that says God gives us the peace that passes understanding. Especially something that has to do with our kids, wow. Knowing God is God is peace that passes understanding.

For years, I think I put faith and trust together in my mind, that they are the same thing. I am not sure if I am right, but now I think they are really different things. I believe in God. Okay, yeah. But trust Him, trust Him to take care of my children? A whole different thing. I think. Believing was a big deal to me until I did it, then it just didn't seem that hard to keep believing. But trusting Him is something I seem to need to reach for and experience over and over. It doesn't come easy, lots of times. Make sense?


But then again, faith is no doubt a whole lot more than believing. Maybe it's believing and trusting combined. I don't know.


I'm thinking if we were still under the 'guideline' here that everything is supposed to be related to the LC experience, I could write something like -- oh, I don't know. Maybe this --- thank God, I believed in Him, had faith in Him, trusted Him and He blessed me by leading me right out of the LC. Or something.

fpo

[cityonahill]

Good observations by everyone...it truly is such a deep topic and not easily defined. Praise and Thanks be to God for the things he is doing and continues to do!!!

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Only by Grace

I held to the fact that GOD IS ABLE…but I was not demanding, or even expecting God to heal my son, but rather, KNOWING that He could should He choose to do so.

Great point here, faith is not twisting God's arm to do something he's indifferent about. It's believing and joining in on what he wants to do.

I've long suspected it's impossible to have real faith for what God's doesn't want.

[aron]

Originally Posted by cityonahill

the Roman officer did not come to Jesus concious of his faith! Rather, He made Jesus the object of his faith.
That is my conviction. To always make sure I keep God as the object of my faith and not get so caught up in "stirring up" the gift myself.
If you look to yourself for blessing, healing, deliverance,...your own faith ultimately becomes the object of your faith...

I like this 'thread' of discussion, this line of thinking.

When I make "faith" the object of my focus, I get little, if at all. When I make God my focus, my aim, then God supplies the faith necessary to make the connection, the necessary transfer of reality.

God wants me to get something of Him. Faith is the conduit whereby this transfer takes place. Faith, as an object in and of itself, is meaningless.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Only by Grace

I held to the fact that GOD IS ABLE…but I was not demanding, or even expecting God to [act], but rather, KNOWING that He could should He choose to do so. And thankfully, He did...

My knowledge of Him as described by His Word, and as demonstrated by Jesus, cements my faith in Him: He is Who He is, He can do what He pleases, He is Love, He is Righteous, He is Jealous, He is Truth, He is Mercy, He is everywhere, He knows everything, He is the giver of good gifts, He answers prayer, and ON AND ON (praise God!!). I trust HIM, not what He chooses to do (or not do) for me…but thankfully, because of WHO He is; He does do good things...

God will always meet us according to the measure of our faith. I can always exercise according to the measure of my faith. I do have an allotted portion to function within, no matter how small and miserable it may seem when compared to the "giants" who have come before me.

Let me give an example. I may not have the faith to move a mountain; I cannot by faith pray, "Lord, do this or that miraculous thing for my friend Bob", with the expectation that the Lord will fulfill it.

But what I CAN do is pray, "Lord, thank you for my friend Bob." I AM grateful for this person in my life, whether God does something miraculous for him in his situation or not. So I pray according to my measure. I may say, "Lord, bless Bob as you see fit." Beyond that, I have no ground to command troops of angels. I just don't. So I say, "Lord, Hallelujah for Bob! Amen Lord, You CAN do great things for Bob!" Whether or not God chooses to do something, I acknowledge with thanksgiving God's dominion. I don't attempt commands beyond my portion; rather I acknowledge God's great power within my measure of faith to do so.

But what happens is that the universe has changed! Now the universe includes a small, faith-infused prayer for Bob. This is a FACT. Prayer converted my faith into FACT. Because I believed, I spoke. I don't have to try to go beyond my allotted portion; and I don't have to be ashamed of my portion and bury it in a hole in the ground. If I exercise according to my measure, my exercise according to my FAITH creates new FACTS that the universe just has to deal with.

Jesus is Lord.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Igzy

... faith is not twisting God's arm to do something he's indifferent about. It's believing and joining in on what he wants to do.

I've long suspected it's impossible to have real faith for what God's doesn't want.

Ditto. Amen. When the Spirit infuses us with light, we get a revelation of what God is doing; the great power of His love for humankind coming in the person of His Son, and we can't help but exclaim, "Wow! Amen! Praise God! Hallelujah! Yes, Lord, Amen!" And in our believing, and speaking, we join into what God is doing.

We don't rouse a somnolent God into action; we see a dynamic God in action and we acknowledge. We "see" how much that mountain "wants" to jump into the ocean and we go, "Wow! Look at that!", as the mountain is cast into the sea (cf Matt. 17:20).

[Cal]

aron,

I've heard others say our prayers need to be specific. "God, give Bob a job close to home." You seem to be saying prayers can be more general. "Lord, bless Bob," and let God figure out the appropriate blessing. But when Jesus was on earth he asked people "What do you want?" To which they answered, for example, "Lord, I want to see (physically)." He seemed to be pushing them to be specific.

Thoughts?

[aron]

Actually, I agree. Specific is better than general; I think it's more useful to God in His move on the earth. However, christians have been lulled into an "all or nothing" kind of response, where if they can't pray the prayer of Wesley or Moody they are shut up. That's what I meant by burying the talent in the ground.

I may not always have faith to say, "Lord, change this situation, in such and such a way!", but I always can say, "Lord, thank You for this situation. In this situation I believe, I hope, I trust, I rest in You. Nothing can remove me from Your hand."

Secondly, I like to hang out with other christians, and when they pray specific, commanding prayers I say "amen". I join my quart of faith with their gallon, and God can move and overcome the enemy's work.

Look at Acts chapter 9, vv 36-42. The widows were weeping and carrying on, making a fuss. No mention of specific prayers. Their only leading was to go and get Peter. Peter was moved by the commotion to seek God, and had a specific leading. He commanded Dorcas to rise.

We can function in a general way. God used both the widows and Peter.

[Cal]

aron,

Wow! I see what you are saying now. Very, very helpful. Yes, as your faith is so be it to you. Rise to the level of your faith. So if you don't have faith to pray "Lord, I need a 20% raise," at least you can pray, "Lord, help!" There is a genuine prayer of faith somewhere for everyone.

Thanks, aron. This was the word I was looking for. Excellent, helpful stuff.

Blessings!

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by aron

Actually, I agree. Specific is better than general; I think it's more useful to God in His move on the earth. However, christians have been lulled into an "all or nothing" kind of response, where if they can't pray the prayer of Wesley or Moody they are shut up. That's what I meant by burying the talent in the ground.

I may not always have faith to say, "Lord, change this situation, in such and such a way!", but I always can say, "Lord, thank You for this situation. In this situation I believe, I hope, I trust, I rest in You. Nothing can remove me from Your hand."

Secondly, I like to hang out with other christians, and when they pray specific, commanding prayers I say "amen". I join my quart of faith with their gallon, and God can move and overcome the enemy's work.

Look at Acts chapter 9, vv 36-42. The widows were weeping and carrying on, making a fuss. No mention of specific prayers. Their only leading was to go and get Peter. Peter was moved by the commotion to seek God, and had a specific leading. He commanded Dorcas to rise.

We can function in a general way. God used both the widows and Peter.

For many years I have myself prayed, and I have suggested to others to pray, for people for whom they feel burdened by simply saying "Oh, Lord, aron, Lord!" or some such very general expression.

I frequently feel that I can't presume to know what the Lord needs for you or what you need in Him but whatever it is, I can give that the AMEN! in faith without even knowing, and I trust that someone, somewhere, is handling the specific end of things for me in coordination, even if "only" our Intercessor.

Oh, Lord, aron, Lord!

One sort of occasion that I've commonly done this is when I see a stranger on the street who for some reason reminds me of someone I met or knew long ago. I send up one of these for that person I knew and throw one in for the stranger while I'm at it.


Oddly, I realized this very day, I have not prayed this sort of prayer very often for my boss. I had to repent about that.


I figure, at bottom, every one of these prayers is for more enjoyment and experience of Jesus and more practical salvation so you can't really go wrong.

Oh, Lord, me, too, Lord!

Our spirits groan.

I say, groan on!