I had a dream. (Full)

[seeking1]

I was reluctant to write a testimony but, after receiving so much encouragement just from reading the testimonies of others on this forum, I thought maybe this could help someone the way that so many others have helped me.

I was brought up in a single family home. My parents were both believers, both Baptist. The church I attended growing up (my mother’s church) was Independent Baptist and they were hard-core too! I mean, they were some bible thump’n, honky tonk’n, God only listens to country music, no mix’n the races bunch. The last part was particularly hard to deal with, being mixed race and all. Some of the rules for the youth (young people) were just plain cooky, like: Girls didn’t wear pants or shorts, only skirts or gouchos, (yeah that’s right- gouchos). Boys weren’t allowed to wear sweat pants or have hair that was too long; resembling women (a mullet would be questionable). I mean, these people were a “baptism of the Holy Spirit” away from being Pentecostal. As weird as it was, I’m not bitter, it was a kind of a child-conductor for me and my siblings and at least I can say that I learned the “Law” there, but there was not much spiritual growth there, which I’ll come back to later. But, I know that the prayers of some of the saints there have and still do preserve me until this day. Praise the Lord that there are some (whom I would never expect) who are petitioning the Lord on my behalf.

I’ve believed in the Lord for as long as I can remember. I do distinctly recall being saved at a passion play when I was about 10 and then when I was 17 I got saved “again” because I had the realization that I had never actually repented for my sins. So, I got re-baptized and re-dedicated my life to the Lord, yada-yada. You know. But it wasn’t long before I was back to my old routine.

My family was poor growing up. Like I said, it was just my mom raising 4 kids, so times were tough. My mother grew up especially poor which made things harder for us because normal things like: running water, gas, electricity, reliable transportation, clean clothes, and a stable source of income were all luxuries to her and optional. So we, for the most, part always lived in the less desirable parts of town which brought with it the less desirable people, and not the most upstanding of friends for us kids, of course. Because we only periodically had reliable transportation we would catch the church bus pretty much every Sunday morning and evening. We were some of the only kids to have a parent present on the church bus. The majority of the kids were sent by their parents who didn’t attend. So the atmosphere was exciting to say the least. Most of the other kids stopped coming by the time they were teenagers, but not us, my mother insisted that we went. My only escape was if I stayed over a friend’s house on Saturday night but, she’d always ask if I wanted the church bus to pick me up from over there. I said “no”, of course.

One thing about my mother that I appreciate is that she always had the mentality of “just go somewhere, anywhere” if you can’t make it to your church make it to another one. Not that we should engage in “church hopping” or embrace every teaching that has a whiff of Jesus. You must try the spirits. I must admit that while I was in the LC I snubbed my nose at this kind of “go somewhere, anywhere” thinking and dismissed as “empty” and “religious”. Looking back, however, it showed me that believers are believers (period). Regardless of affiliation, doctrine or creed, the Lord looks at the heart.

During high school I got caught up with the wrong crowd and we all know how that goes. Long story short I spent some time travelling down the wrong road in the fast lane. So, I wound up being in my early twenties, living a life that I was not proud of (to say the least) all the while dragging my wife and four kids along for the ride.

For some reason I picked up the book “This Present Darkness” by Frank Peretti when I was at my mom’s house one day and everything began to change. I wondered, “what if this book was even remotely accurate?” Doing what I was doing? Being in the places where I was? Was I helping God’s cause or frustrating it? That was the point at which I started to seek, really seek.

In 2003, I began to read the word and pray regularly, but I had questions. On several occasions, when I tried to contact the pastor of my mother’s church he was unavailable. We had visited my wife’s church a couple times but, I didn’t much like it, and it was a little too weird for me. But I decided to contact, who I believed to be, the pastor of my wife’s church (who was actually a “Local Church” elder). He was more than happy to answer any questions that I had and, to my delight, he even offered to come to my house and read the bible with me and, so began my journey with the “Local Church”.

It was great at first. Some of the people were unbelievably nice, some were just plain strange. I began to learn about man’s fall, the two trees, the tripartite man (diagram and all), the pre-adamic creation, and the list goes on. I was blown away with all this stuff. To be honest, it was the thousand years in outer darkness that really blew me away; I knew that I didn’t want to go through that.

I began to attend the meetings regularly. Every now and then I’d notice a drop in attendance because people were going to some kind of conference thing (?). And when they came back they’d be raving about what the brothers shared. But I was happy to go on with the Lord just meeting and fellowshipping.

The first instance that I realized that there was definitely something wrong was when the brothers had asked me to share something on the incense altar at our Friday night brother’s meeting. Now, I had recently heard brothers admonishing each other with statements like “don’t read me a footnote”, so I was determined to stay as far away from Lee’s footnotes as I could. That was my first mistake and my second mistake was actually thinking that I could engage in exegesis (Who did I think I was?). I did read Lee’s footnotes on the incense altar and the ingredients, and for the most part agreed. The one thing I disagreed with Lee on was the fragrant spice stacte (Ex. 30:34). Lee states that stacte is a kind of myrrh. My contention was that if it was myrrh, why didn’t the Lord just say “myrrh”, like he did in giving instructions for the holy anointing oil eleven verses earlier(Ex. 30:23). I didn’t actually say “I disagree with what Brother Lee says here!” I just pointed out that there was some disagreement about what stacte actually was and that I leaned towards the thought that it was the gum from the styrax plant (which was burned during frankincense harvesting to repel snakes). It got ugly that night. This was an open, informal environment and at one point the brothers were going back and forth with each other, I don’t recall about what, I just remember chaos and that I wanted to walk out of that place so bad.. Afterwards, one of the Elder’s was telling me “you really gotta get those ingredients right”, I replied with something along the lines of “I read Brother Lee’s footnotes, and I respectfully disagree”, then he (the elder) reiterated “I’m not talking about the footnotes, you really gotta get those ingredients right”. I thought to myself “Well, what are you talking about then?”, at that point I knew where that conversation was going… nowhere.

That night I saw something. I saw that they (the LC) don’t like it when you touch their doctrine. You can show up, have fellowship, give a testimony, but don’t…don’t touch the doctrine. I got over it, but looking back, that night I began my ascent into a spiritual valley. I continued going to the meetings, and had taken part in some trainings but I felt so dry and empty. I remember sitting in my living room with a brother and trying to explain what I was going through. It seemed like I was doing everything right but something was missing. He didn’t have any answers for me, but I soldiered on.

Eventually my job moved me to second shift. I didn’t want to be away from my family, but part of me felt relieved, because I it would take me out of the usual hum-drum routine of practical serving and small group meetings because anymore they had become ridiculously dry. I always complained to the Lord about being on second shift. For the life of me, I couldn’t understand why He put me there. The truth is that He had to put me in a place of isolation, a place without out all the noise of doctrine and teaching, a place where I could hear His voice.
While I was on the off-shift it gave me the opportunity to do a lot of reading. One book in particular, “Breaking of The Outer Man, and The Release of The Spirit” by W. Nee, brought forth a paradigm shift for me. It helped me to see exactly what the title says, the outer-man, the old man must be broken, and he must be crucified in order to give way to the operation of the Spirit. It also helped me to have a spirit of service, I felt like I just wanted to help however I could. I just wanted to be useful to the Lord and trying to meet the needs of the saints. So I continued on, pursuing the Lord, serving the saints, and trying to live a crucified life. I enjoyed something of a personal revival. I felt alive and fresh, I was enjoying the Lord’s provision. I was also taking part in a10 mo. training with Titus Chu. I really felt like I was in a good place with the Lord.

Then, one night I had a dream. I was sitting at a table in a house. At the table there was a white child with dirty blonde hair in a high chair, and two white women who seemed sad, they definitely weren’t happy (for some reason I don’t recall their hair color). We were all sitting at the table, but there was no food. I got up and left. After leaving the house I was walking across a field and off in the distance there was a gathering of people having a good time, that’s the best way I could describe it. Out of the crowd came one of my family members and who waved to me and bid me to join them. But I just waved and kept walking. Next I found myself in a kitchen of another house and my wife, who is seldom in my dreams, was there with me, there was a certain sense of uneasiness present ( I don’t recall what the outside of the house looked like or walking through the door or anything). This kitchen was big, almost like a restaurant kitchen with stainless steel islands. I briefly saw an Asian woman. But my attention was drawn to all the food that was on the one of the islands. The food was in buffet pans and covered in saran wrap. I was looking at the food which looked old to me and I said to my wife, in disgust “I can’t believe they put this out every day”. I then saw a stainless steel mixing bowl and in the bowl there was this exotic seafood dish, I do recall seeing some octopus tentacles, as to the rest I really don’t know what it was, I just know it was seafood and it looked exotic. So I began to eat this food. At first it tasted good but there was a kind of rotten after taste to it that just didn’t seem right. As I went to take my next bite, lifted up a piece of this meat or fish or whatever it was and under it was a black spider. I dropped the bowl and the dream ended.

First off, I’ve never been one to believe that dreams carry a lot of weight. I’ve always kind of leaned towards dreams, for the most part, being manifestations of our sub-conscious, but this dream really perplexed me.

What I believe the dream meant is as follows: The first house with the white women and child was the church I grew up in. That church was predominantly white and there was little to know spiritual food there, hence, the table with no food on it. The people in the field are the people in the world, having no covering. The family member who bid me to join them is a believer, but has always been rather worldly. The second house is the Local Church with its Asian influence. In the Local Church there is plenty spiritual food, but their food had become old and stale. Just as Israel needed fresh manna every day, the LC is no exception. The bowl of exotic food is the teachings of Lee, which seem special, exotic, and even taste good at first but there is a rotten after taste that just doesn’t sit well and in these teachings the enemy (the spider) has a foot hold.

When I had this dream I was at what I thought to be good place with the Lord. So, I didn’t quite know how to proceed. At first I thought “Well, I’ll just scale back on the Lee, keep encouraging the saints and continue going on with the Lord”, business as usual. It worked for a while, but it just became more and more apparent to me that something was lacking. The “well had run dry” and had been running dry long before I had arrived. They were abiding in system of “no system” they were embracing a doctrine of “no doctrine”, and meeting under the name of “no name”. Very few seemed “exercised” and living, the table meetings were often a struggle to enter into something, anything.
I believe it was listening to old tapes of Witness Lee that I heard of some sort of split with a T.A. Sparks, at the time I paid no attention to it. One day for some reason I googled T.A. Sparks and began to read some of his writings, it was so enjoyable. I really had this deep sense of satisfaction in reading Sparks, it was just like wow! Now this is life. This is what I’ve been missing. I wondered how the brothers couldn’t receive this ministry. The more I read of Sparks the more I saw that: the Body is a living organism, you can’t manufacture life, and the Spirit must, must, must be free to operate as It wills, and that none of this was happening in the Local Church.

The brothers were always trying to implement some new strategy that was supposed to revive the saints and restore them to their former glory. I could never make it through a meeting without someone recalling the yesteryears “we used to do this” or “we never did that” and “we sang hymns and called on the Lord the whole way there” and I believe them. I really do believe that they had a genuine experience of the Lord and that he was doing something in them, then. But, what is he doing now? There were specific families within the Levites who had specific duties to perform when constructing and deconstructing the tabernacle. Why? Because it was portable, it was designed to be taken down and put up over and over again. Simply put, the Israelites were gonna be on the move. Just like we are gonna be on the move until we’ve reached the Good Land. I believe that in the LC the saints feel like they had reached a certain point and the just plopped down like that was it, when the Cloud of Glory had moved on.

One of the more recent plans of action that the brothers wanted to implement was a revisiting of rudiments of the Lord’s Table in order to restore some life to the table meetings. I’ll never forget going to that meeting on a Friday night, I was anticipating some good fellowship, I walked into the meeting hall and I saw a leading brother sitting there with the “green book” and a stack of paper copies, my stomach dropped. I knew what was about to happen but I tried to stay positive, I said to myself “it’s ok just be open, maybe I can encourage the saints in some way or maybe I’ll be encouraged”. As I was sitting there I was looking around the room and I realized that everyone there had been there from the beginning, except me, almost 30 years, since they had “taken the ground” and I was the only “new one” there. And what were we doing? Probably talking about the same thing that they talked about 30 years ago, the Lord’s Table. Not that I’m discounting the table meeting, because I’m not, it is absolutely precious, but after 30 years the saints should know what the Lord’s table is about. This was just another attempt by the leading one’s to resuscitate the lifeless body of a dead system, refusing to accept the reality of the matter. I would hesitate to condemn every LC assembly. You really have to judge each assembly of believers accordingly; the “knowing a tree by its fruit” analogy applies. But, would I recommend them to a believer seeking fellowship? Absolutely not, quite the opposite, I would advise them to go elsewhere.

I know that for me, where I was meeting, the Lord was not in His place. His rights were not fully established. Even though that little table was placed in a central position, Christ was not the center of the table meeting. The real center of the meeting was a book shelf off, over to the side of the hall, full of books written by Witness Lee. Those books, more specifically, the teaching s found in those books are what is honored and cherished by the LC.

Life was not being ministered to the saints, only teachings. There was no practical application only practical serving and meetings. In my seven years with the Local Church, I and my wife were only invited to someone’s house for dinner once, and that was at the beginning when we were being courted. So, I asked? What’s the difference between us and them (denominations). We come on Sunday, have a mid- week service in the form of a small group meeting , mean while everyone is just doing their own thing. Where was the building up? The one anothering? The breaking of bread? The living fellowship? There wasn’t any. As well as, there isn’t any difference between a stagnant, religious assembly of the LC and a stagnant, religious assembly of the denominations. Regardless of your denomination or affiliation, if the Lord is on the throne and allowed to reign unhindered by man, life will flow and things will grow. Eventually I realized that nothing was going to change. The brothers were going to remain faithful to their “stand” and what they were “shown”. They are the elders! Who God has “placed” there, and in twenty years they will still be the elders, still being “faithful”, still with no sheep to shepherd. It saddens me to say that.

After being before the Lord much, I knew that I had to go. I knew that He was leading me out. I was afraid, because I didn’t want my routine changed, I was kind of used to the way things were. It was tough but, in August of this year, I stepped out in faith and the Lord has been merciful. My kids love the new church. I’ve been somewhat struggling with the whole conventional, clergy/laity, structured thing, but I know that I can’t box in the living God, so… amen. I’m thankful for the time I spent in the LC, although not always enjoyable, I learned a lot. But now I’m moving on, seeking this One, Jesus.

[Indiana]

Thanks for this sharing Seeking1. You should be hearing from others more extensively concerning your testimony. Your time was comparatively short in the Local Church, but you were left with this hunger to be single for Christ, as you have shared. You still desire Him! - This is wonderful.

I wish you and your wife and family the best. Keep pursuing Him, and ministering Him to others.

Steve

[Ohio]

Thanks for sharing your testimony. Being from Ohio it caught my interest ...

Originally Posted by seeking1

That night I saw something. I saw that they (the LC) don’t like it when you touch their doctrine. You can show up, have fellowship, give a testimony, but don’t…don’t touch the doctrine.

To be fair ... since leaving the LC's, I have been publicly "corrected" in two different congregations which I have been a part of. The moral of the story is that nearly all Christian leaders love their own precious doctrines.

Originally Posted by seeking1

It worked for a while, but it just became more and more apparent to me that something was lacking. The “well had run dry” and had been running dry long before I had arrived. They were abiding in system of “no system” they were embracing a doctrine of “no doctrine”, and meeting under the name of “no name”.

Well said. This became to me one of life's greatest ironies. It took me close to 30 years to learn what you did in just a few.

Originally Posted by seeking1

The brothers were always trying to implement some new strategy that was supposed to revive the saints and restore them to their former glory. I could never make it through a meeting without someone recalling the yesteryears “we used to do this” or “we never did that” and “we sang hymns and called on the Lord the whole way there” and I believe them.

As a deacon in a LC, I spent half of my life arranging and rearranging the saints in order to carry out the latest strategy from Cleveland ... or from Anaheim ... or from Malaysia ... or from where ever it was the last place the elders visited. Because LC leaders have been trained for decades, what would WL do? or what would TC do?, it seems the ability to seek the Lord as a church elder/shepherd is probably lost. Those brothers who have attempted to do so have been chided or marginalized, or at worst quarantined.

Originally Posted by seeking1

This was just another attempt by the leading one’s to resuscitate the lifeless body of a dead system, refusing to accept the reality of the matter. Even though that little table was placed in a central position, Christ was not the center of the table meeting. The real center of the meeting was a book shelf off, over to the side of the hall, full of books written by Witness Lee.

The real question is simple -- why is the Lord is not blessing them? Why is their program so tasteless? Why is there so little anointing when repeating messages from those Green Books? The LC leaders really don't know how to treat people. They have learned so many bad habits. They love the new ones and beat up the old ones. You faced that first hand concerning the doctrine of stacte! Yikes!

The trail of wounded and departed brothers in the Recovery is quite a lengthy one. Yet no one asks why. They dare not too.

Originally Posted by seeking1

So, I asked? What’s the difference between us and them (denominations).

The answer is simple -- there is no difference between us and them (denominations.) The LC's have been condemning other Christians for so long, that "with what judgment you judge, you will be judged," as the Lord has warned us.

Originally Posted by seeking1

Regardless of your denomination or affiliation, if the Lord is on the throne and allowed to reign unhindered by man, life will flow and things will grow. Eventually I realized that nothing was going to change. The brothers were going to remain faithful to their “stand” and what they were “shown”. They are the elders! Who God has “placed” there, and in twenty years they will still be the elders, still being “faithful”, still with no sheep to shepherd. It saddens me to say that.

I was told by many saints that things had changed for the better. I was told that TC had changed for the better. I was told that the GLA churches were enjoying new found liberties after leaving LSM.

But how can things change, when the leaders have not? Many LC leaders should have resigned long ago seeing how badly they have done. In my LC, since the new leader was sent to town, the church has split in half. Many dear saints have left. Morale is miserable. On job performance alone, he should have been fired long ago.

.

[seeking1]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I was told by many saints that things had changed for the better. I was told that TC had changed for the better. I was told that the GLA churches were enjoying new found liberties after leaving LSM.

Unfortunately, the locality I was meeting in had some staunch Lee advocates. They sided with Titus in the split but, it's like many have already said, Lee got a free a pass and it's those power hungry blendeds who are to blame. There were definitely some brothers in my locality who resented Titus for his actions decades ago and more recently with his publications. Just prior to my departure one of the brothers was complaining about how we didn't have the video trainings anymore and how those riches are something that a young brother like me needs. I held my peace.

The last time I saw Titus, at a Elders and Leading Ones meeting, he was doing some serious LSM bashing. I was just sitting there like "I didn't come for this", I did get Rex Beck's book on TA sparks so it wasn't a total loss. It's true that "The Split", was just a power struggle over who was to continue Lee's ministry. So now you can get the flow of Lee from two convenient locations Cleveland or Anaheim.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by seeking1

Unfortunately, the locality I was meeting in had some staunch Lee advocates. They sided with Titus in the split but, it's like many have already said, Lee got a free a pass and it's those power hungry blendeds who are to blame. There were definitely some brothers in my locality who resented Titus for his actions decades ago and more recently with his publications. Just prior to my departure one of the brothers was complaining about how we didn't have the video trainings anymore and how those riches are something that a young brother like me needs. I held my peace.

The last time I saw Titus, at a Elders and Leading Ones meeting, he was doing some serious LSM bashing. I was just sitting there like "I didn't come for this", I did get Rex Beck's book on TA sparks so it wasn't a total loss. It's true that "The Split", was just a power struggle over who was to continue Lee's ministry. So now you can get the flow of Lee from two convenient locations Cleveland or Anaheim.

I've always wondered how much RB's book on T.A.Sparks (sponsored by TC his FIL) upset those Blendeds. Brothers like Sparks and Ingalls supposedly instigated coup d'etats against the ministry, so they are the most hated ones, and here a book comes out of Cleveland about TAS. Kind of like one of Darby's associates writing a favorable book about George Muller.

When the whole quarantine was going down, and brothers were posting their allegiances pro and con in public letters on the websites, I felt that many LSM supporters in the GLA did so because of the way TC treats other brothers. It's easier to think that brothers 2,000 miles away are more "holy" when one has witnessed so much abuse to the brothers around you.

For decades TC has sown seeds of suspicion concerning the Blendeds into GLA leaders. The fact is no one can work with TC side by side, and Benjamen Chen of NYC testified that at Whistler. In many regardss, TC is rich in Christ, and I learned much from him, and for that I am grateful. But his ministry comes with lots of "extras," and bashing brothers is part of it. He definitely learned that from WL.

[seeking1]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I've always wondered how much RB's book on T.A.Sparks (sponsored by TC his FIL) upset those Blendeds. Brothers like Sparks and Ingalls supposedly instigated coup d'etats against the ministry, so they are the most hated ones, and here a book comes out of Cleveland about TAS. Kind of like one of Darby's associates writing a favorable book about George Muller.

Rex was delicate in his description of the relationship between Sparks & Lee.
A good read though.

Originally Posted by Ohio

In many regardss, TC is rich in Christ, and I learned much from him, and for that I am grateful. But his ministry comes with lots of "extras," and bashing brothers is part of it. He definitely learned that from WL.

Yeah I know what you're talking about, it would be unusual to make it through a conference or training where Titus didn't put someone in the hot seat in front of all the saints. Once, during a session in the home behind Hall 1, I had to endure Titus berating an older brother (to me) who had left the LC years ago but had recently returned. Man! That brother must of been Oh Lord! Amen! Hallelujah-ing! inwardly the whole time because I don't think I could have taken it, I probably would have walked!

I too received some help from Titus, but he has his faults like the rest of us. It makes me think of Revelation when John was weeping because he thought there was no one worthy to open the scroll, no one in heaven, on earth or under the earth, but hallelujah! there was one... only one who was worthy, Christ. May we look to Him, because when we look to men, we're setting our selves up to be let down.

I hope this post comes out ok. I'm trying figure out how to display the quotes and what not. Bear with me folks.

Originally Posted by seeking1

May we look to Him, because when we look to men, we're setting our selves up to be let down.

Exactly! And this is why I believe many Christians become disillusioned: their favorite preacher lets them down and they crumble because their faith was misdirected. Our faith should be in Christ and him alone!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by seeking1

Yeah I know what you're talking about, it would be unusual to make it through a conference or training where Titus didn't put someone in the hot seat in front of all the saints. Once, during a session in the home behind Hall 1, I had to endure Titus berating an older brother (to me) who had left the LC years ago but had recently returned. Man!

What a shame! And this was supposedly after TC had "changed" to become a "kinder, gentler, more considerate" brother. Why can't TC rejoice that the Lord had restored the brother? Think about how very few who have left the LC's actually have the grace to return!?! This brother has to be an overcomer. How much did the church pray for the brother to return, only to get beat up by TC?

What do you think would happen to me if I returned after all I have written? Can't imagine the "berating" I would receive. Yet ... I would challenge any brother to point out where my witness was false. TC has been given a free license to abuse brothers for decades. I have never seen another brother or two rise up to defend a brother under attack. Are there any brothers even left for TC to beat up?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Exactly! And this is why I believe many Christians become disillusioned: their favorite preacher lets them down and they crumble because their faith was misdirected. Our faith should be in Christ and him alone!

Of course, we should look to "Christ and him alone!" That goes without saying. The Bible also teaches us to "obey the ones leading you and submit to them, and to be subject to elders." This does not mean that we "put our faith" in our leaders. There is a huge difference between believing into the Lord and submitting to human leaders. These are two very different matters which our "unregistered guest" has confused.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Of course, we should look to "Christ and him alone!" That goes without saying. The Bible also teaches us to "obey the ones leading you and submit to them, and to be subject to elders." This does not mean that we "put our faith" in our leaders. There is a huge difference between believing into the Lord and submitting to human leaders. These are two very different matters which our "unregistered guest" has confused.

So you don't believe some Christians faith is misdirected and is for all intent and purposes in their favorite preacher instead of Christ and/or in addition to Christ?

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by seeking1

After being before the Lord much, I knew that I had to go. I knew that He was leading me out. I was afraid, because I didn’t want my routine changed, I was kind of used to the way things were. It was tough but, in August of this year, I stepped out in faith and the Lord has been merciful. My kids love the new church. I’ve been somewhat struggling with the whole conventional, clergy/laity, structured thing, but I know that I can’t box in the living God, so… amen. I’m thankful for the time I spent in the LC, although not always enjoyable, I learned a lot. But now I’m moving on, seeking this One, Jesus.

seeking1:
Thanks so much for this heartfelt testimony! Please don't be discouraged by the lack of response so far. Many (most?) of the registered members here are crusty, old and decidedly jaded ex Local Churchers who can't even agree on what color the sky is much less on anything of real importance. But most of us really mean well. Whatever you do, please keep "moving on, seeking this One, Jesus."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

seeking1:
Thanks so much for this heartfelt testimony! Please don't be discouraged by the lack of response so far. Many (most?) of the registered members here are crusty, old and decidedly jaded ex Local Churchers who can't even agree on what color the sky is much less on anything of real importance. But most of us really mean well. Whatever you do, please keep "moving on, seeking this One, Jesus."

Now I'm going to have to take this personally UntoHymn. That was a pretty offensive thing to say, especially since you're the boss around here.

Everyone in greater Ohio knows that the sky is grey all winter long.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

seeking1:
Thanks so much for this heartfelt testimony! Please don't be discouraged by the lack of response so far. Many (most?) of the registered members here are crusty, old and decidedly jaded ex Local Churchers who can't even agree on what color the sky is much less on anything of real importance. But most of us really mean well. Whatever you do, please keep "moving on, seeking this One, Jesus."

Hey, speak for yourself, Kemosabe.

Anyway, yes, seeking1. Great testimony! Hang in there. If God is for you who can be against you.

Certainly not the crusty, old and jaded CURRENT Local Churchers.

You'll always have someone to talk to here if you need it.

[A Sojourner]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

seeking1:
Thanks so much for this heartfelt testimony! Please don't be discouraged by the lack of response so far. Many (most?) of the registered members here are crusty, old and decidedly jaded ex Local Churchers who can't even agree on what color the sky is much less on anything of real importance. But most of us really mean well. Whatever you do, please keep "moving on, seeking this One, Jesus."

Hi brother seeking 1!
I to have recently departed the LC in Oct. Its very encouraging to hear that you and your family are "moving on,seeking this One, Jesus". You stated the Lord was leading you out, and that has been my experience also!! He is the Good Sheperd who leads and cares for His sheep. I have met and fellowshipped with many bros./sisters in two assemblies in the town where I live. Its been really wonderful and eye opening at the same time. Feel free to PM anytime.
Oh, btw, not all of us are crusty,old, and jaded.( Is "piling-on" allowed in the forum Un2 ??)
Now,about the color of the sky in Ohios photo. Not totally grey,there's some white in there,different shades of grey...............

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by A Sojourner

Now, about the color of the sky in Ohio's photo.

Not totally grey,there's some white in there, different shades of grey.........

I will concede that sometimes there are white clouds up there, or is that snow on the way ...

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by A Sojourner

Oh, btw, not all of us are crusty,old, and jaded.( Is "piling-on" allowed in the forum Un2 ??)

Thanks for the reminder A Sojourner, sometimes I forget. Of course piling on is allowed - heck, I think it's the favorite pastime of some people!

Thanks Igzy, I always wondered how to spell Kee-Mo-Sa-Bee:rollingeyes2:

[seeking1]

Unto Him, thanks for the words of encouragement. Everyone's experience in the LC was different, including my own I only hope that my testimony could offer some encouragement and validation to another seeking one whether they comment or not.

Thanks Sojourner, I'll probably take you up on your offer.

As far as these Ohio skies go...yeah...they seem to be grey, at least every time I look up they are.

[seeking1]

One thing that I was kind of hoping would happen on its own, but didn't, was that my testimony would generate some comments on dreams and their significance/insignificance.

Like I've already mentioned, I never been one to believe that dreams carry a lot of weight. Although, I know about the instances of Jacob, Joseph, and Daniel (et al?) in the bible. Within the past few years I have had some really weird dreams that don't fit the framework of my usual dreams I was wondering if anyone had some personal examples/instances/experiences they would like to share.

There are a ton of dream websites out there, I really don't trust any of them, and I have no desire to attempt to wade through the "muck". It seems like there's a substantial deposit of wisdom & understanding present on this forum, so I'd just like to put it out there and see what comes back.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by seeking1

One thing that I was kind of hoping would happen on its own, but didn't, was that my testimony would generate some comments on dreams and their significance/insignificance.

Like I've already mentioned, I never been one to believe that dreams carry a lot of weight. Although, I know about the instances of Jacob, Joseph, and Daniel (et al?) in the bible. Within the past few years I have had some really weird dreams that don't fit the framework of my usual dreams I was wondering if anyone had some personal examples/instances/experiences they would like to share.

There are a ton of dream websites out there, I really don't trust any of them, and I have no desire to attempt to wade through the "muck". It seems like there's a substantial deposit of wisdom & understanding present on this forum, so I'd just like to put it out there and see what comes back.

Dreams, at least for me, have not been something I cherished, because none seemed to be divinely inspired. That's not to say they cannot be real and given by God, as the Bible, old and new, testifies. My wife can remember the details of many of her dreams, but most are strange oddities that I listen to only because I love her.

I have met with some believers who held dreams and their interpretation in high regard. Some have also spoken messages in tongues. The problem with dreams and tongues is in the interpretation. Some interpretations I have heard were little more than wishful thinking, but I have heard of some dreams which were a definite answer to prayer and provided necessary instruction to the receiver. I do believe, that like tongues, dreams can be a precious gift from God, and I think yours was. I also believe, that like the interpretation of some tongues, dreams can be pretended, and thus become suspicious to many.

[77150]

Originally Posted by seeking1

One thing that I was kind of hoping would happen on its own, but didn't, was that my testimony would generate some comments on dreams and their significance/insignificance.

Like I've already mentioned, I never been one to believe that dreams carry a lot of weight. Although, I know about the instances of Jacob, Joseph, and Daniel (et al?) in the bible. Within the past few years I have had some really weird dreams that don't fit the framework of my usual dreams I was wondering if anyone had some personal examples/instances/experiences they would like to share.

There are a ton of dream websites out there, I really don't trust any of them, and I have no desire to attempt to wade through the "muck". It seems like there's a substantial deposit of wisdom & understanding present on this forum, so I'd just like to put it out there and see what comes back.

Shortly after being baptized I had a dream/nightmare that I was being swarmed by demons and being dragged back. I was terrified and couldn't speak but ultimately was able to blurt out "Jesus is Lord". The demons left and I never had another nightmare from that day on.

I did have a dream in which a person was speaking to me from the podium in a great hall and said that Jesus "was the great Tekton". When I woke up I looked up the word, it is Greek and means builder. To my memory I had no previous knowledge of this word prior to that dream. The dream meant a lot to me, but I don't want to share the rest on this site.

I believe if a dream is repeated twice then you should pay attention. And yes, I believe I have had meaningful dreams. Also, in Ecclesiastes it says that dreams come from much labor. Which is another experience of dreams that I have had.

[TLFisher]

Since 2001, I have had a recurring dream. It's not a pleasant dream. It's one where I'm in the meeting hall of the Church in ______. Where a responsible brother is speaking about the opposers and looking directly at me. Throughout my dream I am feeling persecution by the innuendo directed at me.

It's because of this dream, when several brothers I had lived with in the brothers house, I could not attend their wedding. I could not step inside that meeting hall, because of the persecution I felt in that dream. Even the short time I was meeting with another locality in 2010, whenever special meetings would take place at the Church in ______, I could not go. Not without thinking I'd be walking into a hornet's nest. Sorry to say, but that's how I feel.

[77150]

Originally Posted by Terry

Since 2001, I have had a recurring dream. It's not a pleasant dream. It's one where I'm in the meeting hall of the Church in ______. Where a responsible brother is speaking about the opposers and looking directly at me. Throughout my dream I am feeling persecution by the innuendo directed at me.

It's because of this dream, when several brothers I had lived with in the brothers house, I could not attend their wedding. I could not step inside that meeting hall, because of the persecution I felt in that dream. Even the short time I was meeting with another locality in 2010, whenever special meetings would take place at the Church in ______, I could not go. Not without thinking I'd be walking into a hornet's nest. Sorry to say, but that's how I feel.

17:15 He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD.

I think this may be hard for you to understand, but these two things go hand in hand. If a crime has been committed and the crime is not kept secret, then in order to justify the wicked you have to condemn the just. This is where we get the term "patsy" from as well as sucker and a whole slew of other terms.

Now why is it that in the LRC they are so concerned about "opposers". The entire concept is ridiculous. What do opposers sit outside the meeting hall with picket signs? Have you ever seen the "opposers"? Do they threaten saints? So why do elders and LSM officials make such a big deal about "opposers"? If you have ever read Macbeth then you are familiar with Macbeth's wife always washing her hands. Her fixation about having dirty hands is not unlike the elders fixation on "opposers".

I once worked at a firm in which many of the executives were supersensitive about you being part of a conversation. We all worked in a large room together, yet they were always afraid someone was eavesdropping on them. They created a very tense atmosphere. Why? Well it turned out they were involved in fraudulent activity. And it was funny the way the entire firm imploded by a very small employee (myself) saying "Boo!". You see, if you are involved in fraud the first person to spill the beans can cut a deal, everyone else loses everything. Hence the tension. Hence the spontaneous implosion.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by 77150

Now why is it that in the LRC they are so concerned about "opposers". The entire concept is ridiculous. What do opposers sit outside the meeting hall with picket signs? Have you ever seen the "opposers"? Do they threaten saints? So why do elders and LSM officials make such a big deal about "opposers"? If you have ever read Macbeth then you are familiar with Macbeth's wife always washing her hands. Her fixation about having dirty hands is not unlike the elders fixation on "opposers".

A concept I had encountered of is as follows:

two sisters first met while they were still single in 1963. Fast forward 13 years they're in the same locality raising families of their own, and reconnecting their friendship. At least for one Summer Training taking turns watching their own children plus the other sister's (keep in mind each of these two sisters had 5 for a total of 10 being cared for by a single sister for an evening). Forward to the present. One of the sisters remains in the recovery and the other left in 1990. The one that remains in the recovery does not want contact with the other out of fear she would try to persuade her to leave. So this must be what the concept to be an opposer is.

Prior to moving to the NW in 1993, by their definition I was an opposer since I saw no legitimacy in the quarantines of 1989/1990. Yet I met with a locality for seven years and another one for another year. All that time I did not express my thoughts except through a forum such as this or to a brother who shared the same sentiment. No need to distract from what the Lord's Table is for. No need to stumble another. After I had ceased meeting with the locality I had met with for 7 years, a sister I knew well allegedly made a comment, "I heard Terry is on the internet". What does that mean? All the ocassions I had been in her home as a single brother and later as a married brother, I never made any issues that I have raised on this forum.
As for the fear of persuasion goes, we're all brothers and sisters. Measning I don't have the thought nor the concept. Rather brothers and sisters I know meeting in the local churches, go on. Keept meeting. No doubt it's the best place for them to meet. It's just not the best place for my family and I to meet. Within the Body, we each have different needs and I need to be at a place where my need for the building up is met.

[77150]

Originally Posted by Terry

A concept I had encountered of is as follows:

two sisters first met while they were still single in 1963. Fast forward 13 years they're in the same locality raising families of their own, and reconnecting their friendship. At least for one Summer Training taking turns watching their own children plus the other sister's (keep in mind each of these two sisters had 5 for a total of 10 being cared for by a single sister for an evening). Forward to the present. One of the sisters remains in the recovery and the other left in 1990. The one that remains in the recovery does not want contact with the other out of fear she would try to persuade her to leave. So this must be what the concept to be an opposer is.

Prior to moving to the NW in 1993, by their definition I was an opposer since I saw no legitimacy in the quarantines of 1989/1990. Yet I met with a locality for seven years and another one for another year. All that time I did not express my thoughts except through a forum such as this or to a brother who shared the same sentiment. No need to distract from what the Lord's Table is for. No need to stumble another. After I had ceased meeting with the locality I had met with for 7 years, a sister I knew well allegedly made a comment, "I heard Terry is on the internet". What does that mean? All the ocassions I had been in her home as a single brother and later as a married brother, I never made any issues that I have raised on this forum.
As for the fear of persuasion goes, we're all brothers and sisters. Measning I don't have the thought nor the concept. Rather brothers and sisters I know meeting in the local churches, go on. Keept meeting. No doubt it's the best place for them to meet. It's just not the best place for my family and I to meet. Within the Body, we each have different needs and I need to be at a place where my need for the building up is met.

Proverbs 16:6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.

This fear is perpetuated because there is a lack of fear of the Lord. Rather they are more afraid of elders, being blackballed, etc. Only the truth can set you free from this fear. Only by the Lord's mercy would this sister or brother receive the truth. If the LRC is an environment with this kind of fear of being blackballed then it is truly an evil place.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by 77150

Proverbs 16:6 By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil.

This fear is perpetuated because there is a lack of fear of the Lord. Rather they are more afraid of elders, being blackballed, etc. Only the truth can set you free from this fear. Only by the Lord's mercy would this sister or brother receive the truth. If the LRC is an environment with this kind of fear of being blackballed then it is truly an evil place.

Yes! A HUGE part of concepts is a reliance on "what the brothers say" and not on what the Word says. Each brother and sister has a conscience and a regenerated spirit. Please do not neglect.

[seeking1]

Originally Posted by Terry

Yes! A HUGE part of concepts is a reliance on "what the brothers say" and not on what the Word says. Each brother and sister has a conscience and a regenerated spirit. Please do not neglect.

Brother, did you have some fellowship before making this statement? LOL.

[seeking1]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Dreams, at least for me, have not been something I cherished, because none seemed to be divinely inspired. That's not to say they cannot be real and given by God, as the Bible, old and new, testifies. My wife can remember the details of many of her dreams, but most are strange oddities that I listen to only because I love her.

I have met with some believers who held dreams and their interpretation in high regard. Some have also spoken messages in tongues. The problem with dreams and tongues is in the interpretation. Some interpretations I have heard were little more than wishful thinking, but I have heard of some dreams which were a definite answer to prayer and provided necessary instruction to the receiver. I do believe, that like tongues, dreams can be a precious gift from God, and I think yours was. I also believe, that like the interpretation of some tongues, dreams can be pretended, and thus become suspicious to many.

Ah yes, the "wife" dreams... I'll stop there.

[seeking1]

Originally Posted by 77150

Shortly after being baptized I had a dream/nightmare that I was being swarmed by demons and being dragged back. I was terrified and couldn't speak but ultimately was able to blurt out "Jesus is Lord". The demons left and I never had another nightmare from that day on.

I did have a dream in which a person was speaking to me from the podium in a great hall and said that Jesus "was the great Tekton". When I woke up I looked up the word, it is Greek and means builder. To my memory I had no previous knowledge of this word prior to that dream. The dream meant a lot to me, but I don't want to share the rest on this site.

I believe if a dream is repeated twice then you should pay attention. And yes, I believe I have had meaningful dreams. Also, in Ecclesiastes it says that dreams come from much labor. Which is another experience of dreams that I have had.

I have had similar dream experiences, except I never saw any "demons". I could feel a presence and then I felt constrained and almost suffocating, it's really hard to explain. When I tried to call on the Lord I couldn't open my mouth. Nothing visible was physically holding my mouth shut , but I couldn't open my mouth. But every time, I just kept fighting to call on the Lord, and eventually my mouth would become free and I would say "Lord Jesus!" and what ever was there would leave, sometimes immediately, sometimes it took more rebuking in the name of the Lord.

Originally Posted by 77150

Also, in Ecclesiastes it says that dreams come from much labor...

What does this mean?

[OBW]

Originally Posted by 77150

Also, in Ecclesiastes it says that dreams come from much labor.

I missed this until someone else noted it. Where is this? When someone simply says "dreams" it is not clear that it is about what happens while asleep, or what happens when people imagine, plan, consider, etc. Could you give the reference?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by OBW

I missed this until someone else noted it. Where is this? When someone simply says "dreams" it is not clear that it is about what happens while asleep, or what happens when people imagine, plan, consider, etc. Could you give the reference?

I remember meeting with a brother at the beginning of the "new way." He had received the teaching that God "programs" our daily life via dreams while we sleep. I guess he had his verses. What do you do with teachings like this? Far stranger than some of the teachings out of LSM.

[OBW]

Found the reference. Ecclesiastes 5:7. It appears most likely that this is referring to thoughts and imaginations rather than to the workings of the brain during sleep.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I remember meeting with a brother at the beginning of the "new way." He had received the teaching that God "programs" our daily life via dreams while we sleep. I guess he had his verses. What do you do with teachings like this? Far stranger than some of the teachings out of LSM.

If it were only that simple. But this idea fits right in with an "organic union" that simply dispenses itself into us as needed. No effort of man required. We don't have to obey. It will simply happen according to those nightly "suggestions."

[77150]

Originally Posted by OBW

Found the reference. Ecclesiastes 5:7. It appears most likely that this is referring to thoughts and imaginations rather than to the workings of the brain during sleep.

5:3 For a dream cometh through the multitude of business;

"multitude of business" can also be translated through much effort, or much labor.

I think that this definitely conveys the sense of dream as in the phrase "my dream is to be a doctor". However, there is a famous story regarding a dream being the breakthrough that led to the discovery of the DNA structure, ultimately resulting in a Nobel Prize. History has other anecdotal stories like this. So it seems that if you spend months focused on a particular problem it is quite likely that a dream may come through all of that effort.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by 77150

5:3 For a dream cometh through the multitude of business;

"multitude of business" can also be translated through much effort, or much labor.

I think that this definitely conveys the sense of dream as in the phrase "my dream is to be a doctor". However, there is a famous story regarding a dream being the breakthrough that led to the discovery of the DNA structure, ultimately resulting in a Nobel Prize. History has other anecdotal stories like this. So it seems that if you spend months focused on a particular problem it is quite likely that a dream may come through all of that effort.

And if you spend months on a problem, it may be that your mind never really ceases in its efforts, but the elimination of distractions could allow it to see something otherwise obscured.

I will admit that I went to sleep one night after trying to provide an answer as a tutor in high school. (I was a sophomore helping a senior in math.) I suddenly awoke with the answer. But the was no association to any dream previously.

And the kind of dream in which your mind continues to rummage over what was occupying your mind immediately before sleep — whether a serious issue at work, plans around the house or for the future, or that horror movie you just saw — is evidence that our brain does not completely turn off during sleep. It does not simply turn to nonsensical dreams in all cases.

But all of this is irrelevant. The term as used in Ecclesiastes is fairly clearly about the conscious use of the imagination, not the unconscious results of our sleep, whether our own dreams or something planted there by God.