Depression and the LCs

[Trapped]

One time I found myself with a group of adult church kids, both brothers and sisters, all of whom were disillusioned and bitter about their years growing up the local churches. During the time one of the sisters expressed that she was struggling with depression and feelings of low self-worth, and that one reason (of many) she stopped going to the meetings was that hearing things like “You are nothing and Christ is everything, all we are is worthless and sinful, you deserved the cross and God can only even stand to look at you because you are covered in Christ and thus when He looks at you He sees Christ, otherwise He would be repulsed by you and cannot exist where you are” made her feel even worse about herself than she already did.

I could sympathize with her feeling because I had heard that thought myself plenty of times growing up in the LC, but was also frustrated that I really had nothing of substance to offer her besides just lending an ear. I really didn’t know how to respond.

A few days after that I relayed the story to an elder and his response was, “I agree, someone in her state of mind should not go to the meetings.”

While that was not the response I expected, it also didn’t quite land right with me but I couldn’t figure out why. I told the story and elder’s response to another saint and they agreed with the elder, likening the speaking in the meetings to rich food, and that when someone is sick they cannot handle rich food.

Does anyone have any input/advice/response to this? While I understand the concept of a sick person not handling rich food, I realized what hit me wrong was that we are all “sick people”. The Lord came exactly for the sick, depressed, downtrodden, crushed, lowly. These ones needing help shouldn’t come to the church? Only mentally and emotionally fully healthy people are suited to hear what is spoken? I had the thought that maybe what is being spoken in the meetings, or the way it is being conveyed, could be the problem. On the other hand, maybe there is some truth to it and if we are not in the right condition to hear certain things, it is better we don’t hear them? I don’t know. I just hated not being able to have any answer for her and would appreciate any thoughts anyone has.

I also realize that it would be possible for someone in a non-LC church also struggling with depression to pick up this same thought and be turned off by it, so I'm not 100% sure it's an LC-specific thing, although others can probably speak more to that than I can.

[Nell]

Trapped,

Many years ago, my father had died in the previous few weeks, and "the elder" summoned me to Sunday lunch to inquire as to why I had not been to meetings in "awhile". My response, in the following hour, was explaining in tears and a whisper which I could hardly speak. I had lost my father and was starting to realize that I would never see him again in this life. My heart was breaking and attending church meetings like a good little girl were the farthest thing from my mind. When I finished my truly pitiful discourse to him, he said nothing. I asked "do you have anything to say to me?" He said "no not really."

What could a concerned Christian say? "Can we pray for you now?" "My wife and I love you and will pray for you." "Is there anything you need?" "How can we help you through this time?" What's wrong with this picture?

This elder exposed his own spiritual bankruptcy. When you turn to "the church" and receive nothing...no spiritual guidance...not even a prayer or expression of love for you, is this really "the church"? These men are supposed to shepherd the flock. Instead, they have nothing. Rich food? If it was rich food spoken by the Holy Spirit, it would bring healing and nourishment. Even comfort.

After this experience, I may have attended one more meeting, but essentially, I never went back.

My advice to you and your friends is to walk away. Express your love and concern for each other. Seek counseling from a professional. I turned to my family for comfort and we all went through losing our father together.

John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.

Are these men His disciples if they can't even express their love to the brothers who are hurting? Notice, this is not a suggestion or a good idea. It's a COMMANDMENT!

Again, find a good Christian counselor and hold on to one another. Thank Him that you see something these "elders" don't! Maybe the Lord is showing you something!

Nell

[A little brother]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I told the story and elder’s response to another saint and they agreed with the elder, likening the speaking in the meetings to rich food, and that when someone is sick they cannot handle rich food.

May be it is the other way round. It could be the lack of certain nutrition in the food that leads to sickness.

I think the nutrition is love which is so seldomly mentioned in the LSM messages. The "church life" promoted is "God's economy" oriented instead of love oriented. "Christ as our person" neglects all the good in our transformed person as if God loves only Himself.

Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

If God already loves us while we were still sinners, would He loves us any less as His children?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I told the story and elder’s response to another saint and they agreed with the elder, likening the speaking in the meetings to rich food, and that when someone is sick they cannot handle rich food.

Does anyone have any input/advice/response to this? While I understand the concept of a sick person not handling rich food, I realized what hit me wrong was that we are all “sick people”.

There will always be folks in the church who are more needy, as Paul says "less comely," and will continually need others to support them, encourage and love them, provide a shoulder, and a hand to hold. God has placed these ones in the body as it pleases Him, in order for His children to be cared for. Love, kindness, and joy are the best medicine.

Back in the mid-80's the LCM became inundated with a legalistic, military spirit (Gideon's army) which was extremely intolerant. Many of those whom I would consider real shepherds and brotherly/sisterly were discarded for the more zealous, military types which rose in prominence both at LSM and in the LC's. Philip Lee, placed in charge of the LC western hemisphere, placed no value on love, rather "what have you done for me lately, and what can you do for me right now."

Today in the LCM there is almost no value placed on Christian counseling, providing for ones gifted in this way to grow and prosper in the church. Anything remotely like this is considered "chicken soup for the soul," or that evil "self-help" which suffers condemnation with the rest of Christianity. Why? Simple. It points to the utter failure of this ministry to provide real food and guidance for spiritual edification. Hence, they would rather lose people by the droves than to have any one of them find help from Joyce Meyer, James Dobson, or thousands others. What they now call "rich food" is just dead esoteric doctrines, frozen and rewarmed, again and again, stored in clammy cold storage, void of anointing, and repackaged as fresh, organic, healthy foodstuffs. Nobody wants this stuff. Not even their own people.

[Evangelical]

Depression is a sign of not abiding in the Lord. Often because of sin as David experienced his downcast soul in the Psalms. The cure is to abide in the Lord. The Lord is always joyful and is a funny guy too.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Depression is a sign of not abiding in the Lord. Often because of sin as David experienced his downcast soul in the Psalms. The cure is to abide in the Lord. The Lord is always joyful and is a funny guy too.

Then why was Paul so depressed, weighed down by so many cares, despaired even of life, and Watchman Nee so depressed?

[UntoHim]

Mr E, do you know what's another sign of not abiding in the Lord? It is not having love, understanding and compassion for your neighbor. If you would put down "The Ministry" long enough to read the story of the Good Samaritan, you would see that much of what you post on this forum is diametrically opposed to the message of the Gospel, which is the absolute expression of the life, heart and character of the Lord Jesus...you know...that guy that you claim to be abiding in.

The Gospel is the very core, the very foundation of our Christian life. Anyone who tells you that there is a "higher gospel" is greatly deceived, and whoever teaches such a thing is a deceiver. I'm quite certain that the priest and the Levite who ignored that man laying in the street, and "past by on the other side", thought that they were abiding in the Lord and living out their "higher gospel".

I would ask you...no, I would beg you, to consider what Nell and the others have posted right here. Ask the Lord why it is you don't have a heart for the wounded ones? Why to you turn a blind eye and cold shoulder towards your brothers and sisters who have been stripped, beaten and left for half dead? Maybe you think "they deserve it" for abandoning "the Ministry", or not speaking the praises of Witness Lee.

Just sayin...
-

[Truthseeker]

Yeah, we are nothing and Christ is everything and He can fill us with peace, love and joy. And our life is meaningful if we can be truly filled with His divine life and nature. We will feel worthy and full of confidence like Paul who said "I can encounter everything through Him who fortified me. (Philippians 4:13)"

But in the Local churches under LSM direction, we are nothing and Witness Lee and Blended Brothers' glory, pride and success are everything. That's why we can feel very weird spirits among them and it can't help us grow up properly and biblically.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

I would ask you...no, I would beg you, to consider what Nell and the others have posted right here. Ask the Lord why it is you don't have a heart for the wounded ones? Why to you turn a blind eye and cold shoulder towards your brothers and sisters who have been stripped, beaten and left for half dead?

Note that there is nothing in my post to suggest or insinuate that "I don't have a heart for wounded ones", as I did not disagree with anything already written. I offered the biblical solution which is 1 Thess 5:16 Always be joyful, and I was the first poster to do so (which is remarkable, as no other poster so far has offered a solution to the problem of depression, this is an area in which local church Christians are best equipped to deal with as they know the value of abiding in the Lord, constantly, 24/7). The cycle of depression is best broken by joy, and care and concern over the "problem" usually just makes it worse, like rubbing salt into a wound.

You could have just agreed with me, and quoted 1 Thess 5:16 Always be joyful, which my post was basically a paraphrase of. But you didn't, either because you can't, or you think it is better to use what I said to attack me and the ministry. You had to turn what I said into something about me , claiming "I don't have a heart for wounded ones". When you accuse or insinuate that others are Pharisees without a heart, you are being just like them. But that is a relative argument, "you are this and I am not but if you say I am not then you in fact are!". I prefer absolutes, and the absolute solution to depression in the bible is to be joyful.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Then why was Paul so depressed, weighed down by so many cares, despaired even of life, and Watchman Nee so depressed?

Yeah Paul, he was so depressed he wanted to die to be with the Lord, he was a suicidal. It's amazing how you read something into the Bible when you want to prove a point. So his solution? 1 Thess 5:16 Always be joyful.

Paul went through so much he should have been depressed, but he was joyful in the Lord. Depression in a first world country is a modern disease of affluence. I haven't met anyone yet with depression who didn't have food, clothes and a roof over their head. And I seen people in 3rd world countries with more joy. In that case I would tell them to snap out of it, stop feeling sorry for themselves and do something meaningful, stop feeding the depression demon. If you go to a pscyhologist they might treat you with CBT (a therapist helps you identify negative or false thoughts and replace those thoughts with healthier, more realistic ones) which is basically biblical teaching marketed in a secular way.

For me whatever I needed I just call on the Lord a few times myself or with the brothers and my problems go away and God answers. It works for me and others you tell me why it doesn't work for everyone?

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Note that there is nothing in my post to suggest or insinuate that "I don't have a heart for wounded ones", as I did not disagree with anything already written. I offered the biblical solution which is 1 Thess 5:16 Always be joyful, and I was the first poster to do so (which is remarkable, as no other poster so far has offered a solution to the problem of depression, this is an area in which local church Christians are best equipped to deal with as they know the value of abiding in the Lord, constantly, 24/7).

I have to disagree here. God spoke many things into me through His word as I searched for answers to what happened to my family, at the hands of the local church Christians. He told me He would never reject me, that He desired love and not sacrifice, that His body is one, that I would never be separated from His love, that He loved me unto His own death, that He (the builder)is greater than the building(the church), and so many more.......when I hold up the picture His word gives me and compare it side by side to the local church Christians practices, I can see no resemblance. I was told by a local churcher that she was obeying the Spirit to shun us. But then the Lord told me He would never reject me. So that is how I know it is not the Holy Spirit leading them in their meanness, but a counterfeit spirit. So many words the Lord has spoken that contradict their LC practices. He loves us and has a ministry of peace and reconciliation. He wants us to walk in that same peace with each other. But that sort of living is impossible with local churchers who refuse to speak with, or fellowship with their "shunee". Jesus chose to eat with the lowest....tax collector, prostitutes, you know, He loves Trump and would sit down with him, and share the Fathers love with him. Jesus put loving others above all commandments except to love God first, with everything you have, and best. But just because you sign the email or text all caps "LOVE YOU" while you let them know you will not receive them, nor answer the phone to them, nor speak to them in person, nor have anything further to do with them.....does not mean you are operating in love, LCers. It is another spirit!!! A lying, false spirit of Satan! I am so thankful the Lord shined on the deception, led us out, and His name will be glorified above the name of Witness Lee, The Ministry, LSM, the Local Church, all of it. You will see someday. The day is appointed, in fact. Praise Jesus alone.

[Evangelical]

So I've basically been attacked by the forum moderator for sharing what is possibly some of the best advice and help about depression ever. By that I mean it's straight from the bible and experience. It can also be found in the teachings of Christianity and in psychology.

What I wrote is basically what John Piper says in "sorrowful yet always-rejoicing":

https://www.desiringgod.org/messages...ways-rejoicing

“What the world needs from the church is our indomitable joy in Jesus in the midst of suffering and sorrow”

Only Christians know how to have joy in the midst of suffering - by abiding in the Lord.

Firstly, sorrow and depression, two completely different things.

I think depression is not real. It's not a real illness. It's a culture syndrome. This is a quote by a psychologist:

"In western anglophone societies we have developed an ethic of happiness, in which aberrations … are assumed to indicate illness,"

Here are supporting articles:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3635547/

https://www.theguardian.com/science/...lly-determined

It's real because we think it's real and other's in our culture tell us it's real.
In third world countries, everyone is suffering, yet happy, why? Because they aren't going around complaining how depressed they are.

It's in the mind, literally. Our minds can be changed. Get in the Word, pray-read, call on the Lord, our mind can change, and we can be joyful.

Get our mind off ourself. Count our blessings. Do we have food, clothing, shelter, are we content?

Don't fight it. You fight it, it wins, because it's not real. It's like fighting an imaginary opponent, you never win because your imagined opponent is always stronger. Depression is not a fight or struggle. Depression is because we aren't abiding in the Lord. Depression is not something we should fight or struggle with, we overcome it by abiding in the Lord.

There is only two conditions of a Christian - in the Lord and not in the Lord. There is no such thing as a Christian abiding in the Lord who is also in depression.

Don't struggle to fight an imaginary opponent who always wins. Struggle to abide in the Lord, and that imaginary opponent will disappear.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Yeah Paul, he was so depressed he wanted to die to be with the Lord, he was a suicidal. It's amazing how you read something into the Bible when you want to prove a point. So his solution? 1 Thess 5:16 Always be joyful.

I read this E, how else shall I read it?

"For we do not want you to be ignorant brothers, as to our affliction having happened in Asia, that we were weighed against excessively, beyond our power, so as for us to despair even to live." II Cor 1.8

Sorry E, but you seem to have a shallow, "book-knowledge-only" understanding of the Christian life. Reading only "the ministry" will do that to you.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

So I've basically been attacked by the forum moderator for sharing what is possibly some of the best advice and help about depression ever.

Rather, you were admonished and entreated by the moderator.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Trapped

One time I found myself with a group of adult church kids, both brothers and sisters, all of whom were disillusioned and bitter about their years growing up the local churches. During the time one of the sisters expressed that she was struggling with depression and feelings of low self-worth, and that one reason (of many) she stopped going to the meetings was that hearing things like “You are nothing and Christ is everything, all we are is worthless and sinful, you deserved the cross and God can only even stand to look at you because you are covered in Christ and thus when He looks at you He sees Christ, otherwise He would be repulsed by you and cannot exist where you are” made her feel even worse about herself than she already did...

Nothing can separate you from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus, neither height nor depth.....He knows what we go through, and His love is steadfast! He loves us joyful, and broken....His love will never leave us, no matter the depths. Lean on the truth, ask Him to lift you out, wait on Him, trust in His care. His word says it matters to Him concerning you....I can testify to His faithfulness!

[Evangelical]

In the OP, first paragraph, someone stopped going to meetings because they heard " “You are nothing and Christ is everything, all we are is worthless and sinful etc".

Why would a real Christian find that depressing? You can hear that message in almost any evangelical church on a Sunday, I'm guessing.

Not everyone sees the positive in the gospel. Some see the cross as cruelty and want nothing to do with a God who tortures His Son. Some may find the gospel depressing. A believer wouldn't.

I'm sorry if I don't see a problem with the gospel being the cause of depression. I am sorry that the moderator does not want you to know that abiding in the Lord is the best solution, as I was "admonished and entreated" for saying so.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Rather, you were admonished and entreated by the moderator.

For saying nothing except what the Bible says (and John Piper) - rejoice always.

Please quote me which would indicate that "I don't have a heart for wounded ones". If you cannot produce such a quote then an apology and a retraction would be the appropriate Christian thing to do.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sorry E, but you seem to have a shallow, "book-knowledge-only" understanding of the Christian life. Reading only "the ministry" will do that to you.

That sounds like another Pharisee-like judgement of my heart, Ohio! You could have agreed with the biblical solution to depression, as well, but didn't, because you'd rather attack, gnashing of teeth too I bet.

[Evangelical]

In any case someone missed the action:

Someone posted this:

Depression is a sign of not abiding in the Lord. Often because of sin as David experienced his downcast soul in the Psalms. The cure is to abide in the Lord.

The moderator replied with a highly presumptuous personal attack:

Ask the Lord why it is you don't have a heart for the wounded ones?

Why to you turn a blind eye and cold shoulder towards your brothers and sisters who have been stripped, beaten and left for half dead?

They wrote:

"you would see that much of what you post on this forum is diametrically opposed to the message of the Gospel"

Ok, so apparently "The cure is to abide in the Lord" is "diametrically opposed to the message of the Gospel".

Here's your chance Mr Moderator to prove it. Quote me where I ever said or implied we should "turn a blind eye and cold shoulder towards your brothers and sisters who have been stripped, beaten and left for half dead". You will soon find that this portrayal of me is merely an extension of your imagination and beliefs about the local churches.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Trapped

One time I found myself with a group of adult church kids, both brothers and sisters, all of whom were disillusioned and bitter about their years growing up the local churches. During the time one of the sisters expressed that she was struggling with depression and feelings of low self-worth, and that one reason (of many) she stopped going to the meetings was that hearing things like “You are nothing and Christ is everything, all we are is worthless and sinful, you deserved the cross and God can only even stand to look at you because you are covered in Christ and thus when He looks at you He sees Christ, otherwise He would be repulsed by you and cannot exist where you are” made her feel even worse about herself than she already did.

OK so the gospel made someone feel worse so she stopped coming. Not the gospel's fault, sorry! "disillusioned and bitter" sounds like a problem. "Christ is everything" shouldn't make anyone feel bad. It is concerning however if no one from the local church is visiting her to help her.

Originally Posted by Trapped

Does anyone have any input/advice/response to this? While I understand the concept of a sick person not handling rich food, I realized what hit me wrong was that we are all “sick people”. The Lord came exactly for the sick, depressed, downtrodden, crushed, lowly. These ones needing help shouldn’t come to the church? Only mentally and emotionally fully healthy people are suited to hear what is spoken?

But you said before coming to meetings made her feel worse. Why should the elder encourage her to come then?

Originally Posted by Trapped

I had the thought that maybe what is being spoken in the meetings, or the way it is being conveyed, could be the problem. On the other hand, maybe there is some truth to it and if we are not in the right condition to hear certain things, it is better we don’t hear them? I don’t know. I just hated not being able to have any answer for her and would appreciate any thoughts anyone has.

Why does it always have to be the meeting that's the problem? If she goes to a doctor they are probably going to give her medicine for her problem. Sorry but people have to stop blaming other people for their problems.

No answer? Why not tell her what the bible says - rejoice in the Lord always. Get over the bitterness - forgive, or whatever you have to do, and move on.

In my experience, if local church people say anything in the meeting, it's with a smile, rejoicing, hallelujahs and the occasional fist pump. Sincere or not, I don't know, but it shouldn't make anyone depressed!

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

I have to disagree here. God spoke many things into me through His word as I searched for answers to what happened to my family, at the hands of the local church Christians. He told me He would never reject me, that He desired love and not sacrifice, that His body is one, that I would never be separated from His love, that He loved me unto His own death, that He (the builder)is greater than the building(the church), and so many more.......when I hold up the picture His word gives me and compare it side by side to the local church Christians practices, I can see no resemblance. I was told by a local churcher that she was obeying the Spirit to shun us. But then the Lord told me He would never reject me. So that is how I know it is not the Holy Spirit leading them in their meanness, but a counterfeit spirit. So many words the Lord has spoken that contradict their LC practices. He loves us and has a ministry of peace and reconciliation. He wants us to walk in that same peace with each other. But that sort of living is impossible with local churchers who refuse to speak with, or fellowship with their "shunee". Jesus chose to eat with the lowest....tax collector, prostitutes, you know, He loves Trump and would sit down with him, and share the Fathers love with him. Jesus put loving others above all commandments except to love God first, with everything you have, and best. But just because you sign the email or text all caps "LOVE YOU" while you let them know you will not receive them, nor answer the phone to them, nor speak to them in person, nor have anything further to do with them.....does not mean you are operating in love, LCers. It is another spirit!!! A lying, false spirit of Satan! I am so thankful the Lord shined on the deception, led us out, and His name will be glorified above the name of Witness Lee, The Ministry, LSM, the Local Church, all of it. You will see someday. The day is appointed, in fact. Praise Jesus alone.

Satan in the church? You bet! There are some very lovely and loving people in the recovery and also some very cold people. The difference between the two may be a spirit as in your case, or some other reason. If they shun you, what can you do, but move on.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I'm sorry if I don't see a problem with the gospel being the cause of depression. I am sorry that the moderator does not want you to know that abiding in the Lord is the best solution, as I was "admonished and entreated" for saying so.

Evan, John 15:10 if you keep My commandments, you shall abide in My love; even as I have kept My Fathers commandments, and abide in His love.......:12 this is My commandment, that you love one another, as I have loved you.

Evan, there can be no abiding in Him, if the love of God is neglected.....where is the love of the brethren in the LC? For your brethren outside the LC, it is refused to them....therefore no abiding in the Lord....

[Trapped]

Evangelical, if I was depressed I think the cure would probably be reading your responses in this thread as you have just made me laugh and laugh....

I would elaborate but I've gotta run to the nearest hospital and tell all the struggling new mothers in the maternity wards that Dr. Evangelical, M.D. says their postpartum depression is simply from their not abiding in the Lord.



But I also hope and pray that no one makes the mistake of coming to you with actual serious problems of this nature. Your responses, even though they are cloaked in Biblical language, are actually quite dangerous and irresponsible.

I had forgotten him until just now but there was a brother in his twenties many years ago who we all in the church could tell was desperately reaching and grasping for the Lord. He was in all the meetings and served in the church and would sometimes yell out in the meeting in his desperate attempt for the Lord to break through, not caring what anyone thought of his open suffering. If anyone was depressed, it was him. And if anyone was trying to abide in the Lord, it was him. He killed himself a few years later because the depression got too much.

I'll thank you not to purport that a good friend of mine that you have never met is not "a real Christian" or [not] "a believer" simply because she is wrestling with something you very clearly do not understand. This kind of thought to someone who is already struggling yet grasping for the Lord can easily have, and has had, disastrous results.

Additionally, it is not true that the depression rate is lower in third world countries, it is just that there is less available data concerning depression in those areas. Most studies done in third world areas only include the rates of reported clinical depression, not rates of actual depression. If people in third world countries are dealing with physical threats to their life, they are not going to go around reporting or seeking treatment for depression until the threats to their life have abated. It does NOT mean that they do not have depression. Sheesh.

[Evangelical]

I think most of that about post natal depression is nonsense (i.e. not so relevant, the point regarding any medical condition is well understood) and you know why? Because you were concerned that the elder did not want her to come to meetings. If that is your primary concern, and if you know people have killed themselves despite coming to meetings, why would you take issue with what the elder said? Your point is that people who need help should be encouraged to come to meetings, right? But you're contradicting yourself because you gave an example of someone who killed themselves despite coming to meetings. I don't really know what it is that you expect from the meetings.

By all means, get help wherever, if a person is suicidal, gee, what are you expecting a meeting to cure it? Three possible causes : body, soul, spirit. The Bible deals with at least two of those, and even the body too if we see that the Spirit quickens the mortal flesh.

So, why don't you just go ahead and say what your post is saying:

"Abiding and rejoicing in the Lord is not always a cure for depression"

So depression is stronger than Jesus, and the Lord is not our comforter, it would seem. You didn't even agree that it is a possible cure.

I don't think there is a thing as wrestling with depression. I think they are wrestling with doubt, and doubt is not a real thing either. Doubt is a lack of faith, and lack of faith is because.. we are not abiding in the Lord.

I mean, the Lord's presence kept people strong through martyrdom and many other things, but a first world problem "feeling low", and the Lord is powerless. Come on, are you kidding?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Evan, John 15:10 if you keep My commandments, you shall abide in My love; even as I have kept My Fathers commandments, and abide in His love.......:12 this is My commandment, that you love one another, as I have loved you.
Evan, there can be no abiding in Him, if the love of God is neglected.....where is the love of the brethren in the LC? For your brethren outside the LC, it is refused to them....therefore no abiding in the Lord....

Visiting people in homes is not love? Gospel outreach is not love? Invitations to family feasts is not love? Love was extended to me by local church people while I was still in the denominations. Thus, your point is disproven.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Trapped

One time I found myself with a group of adult church kids, both brothers and sisters, all of whom were disillusioned and bitter about their years growing up the local churches....

Brother, James 5:14 is any sick among you? Let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: 15 and the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

If the elders in the church are not willing to pray for the sick.....it is an assembly without the love of God....a true sign of error. Time to seek another assembly, one without the red flags the LC is flying.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Visiting people in homes is not love? Gospel outreach is not love? Love was extended to me by local church people while I was still in the denominations.

Evan, I tell you this in love....it is falsified love and falsified fellowship when it will be withdrawn when the "proper ground" requirement of the LC is not met. The proper ground doctrine is not scriptural, and not held by God as a crucial faith item. It is nowhere to be found, without merit, as doctrine. It is bad doctrine. He doesn't care where we meet, in fact this doctrine makes God a liar....which He cannot be. Why did He teach us 《whereever 2 or 3 gather in My name, there I am》 if He cared about city boundaries and local ground? How can I be held to this doctrine when there is no LC in my actual locality? The LC is 30 miles from my city. He desires to be worshipped in spirit and in truth....not within the bounds of the LC ground doctrine!

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

If the elders in the church are not willing to pray for the sick.....it is an assembly without the love of God....a true sign of error. Time to seek another assembly, one without the red flags the LC is flying.

Why didn't she call the elders then? If she did, and they didn't pray, that's wrong! If I was the elder someone said "your meetings are making me sick", I wouldn't know how to pray.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Evan, I tell you this in love....it is falsified love and falsified fellowship when it will be withdrawn when the "proper ground" requirement of the LC is not met. The proper ground doctrine is not scriptural, and not held by God as a crucial faith item. It is nowhere to be found, without merit, as doctrine. It is bad doctrine. He doesn't care where we meet, in fact this doctrine makes God a liar....which He cannot be. Why did He teach us 《whereever 2 or 3 gather in My name, there I am》 if He cared about city boundaries and local ground? How can I be held to this doctrine when there is no LC in my actual locality? The LC is 30 miles from my city. He desires to be worshipped in spirit and in truth....not within the bounds of the LC ground doctrine!

You make a lot of sense. Maybe it is false! Watchman Nee was wrong then! Better tell that to Trapped because they were quoting Nee in the other thread about Scottsdale and Sons to Glory's church is even following this model but even better because it doesn't have Lee in it! What is "it"? I don't think there's any doctrine to be held to. It's all about meeting with all the fellow believers in the city. You're in the city, you're not part of it! If we make it a doctrine, we miss the point!

[Trapped]

First of all you keep editing and editing and changing all your posts which makes it really difficult to respond to whatever your final word is........

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I think most of that about post natal depression is nonsense (i.e. not so relevant, the point regarding any medical condition is well understood)

Regarding postpartum depression, neither the affliction itself nor my point concerning it is nonsense. Your are dismissing wrestling with depression as not a real thing; therefore, postpartum depression (depression that occurs within a specific time frame after giving birth) would also not be a real thing. An entire community of medical doctors, including all the genuine believers in that community, as well as new mothers are laughing you out of the show right now.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Because you were concerned that the elder did not want her to come to meetings. If that is your primary concern, and if you know people have killed themselves despite coming to meetings, why would you take issue with what the elder said?

I was not concerned that the elder did not want her to come to meetings. I was concerned what the best response for someone struggling as she was would be, whether it really is "don't come to the meetings" or if others have other feeling or input. I was concerned for the PERSON, not the meetings. You should try that sometime.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Your point is that people who need help should be encouraged to come to meetings, right? But you're contradicting yourself because you gave an example of someone who killed themselves despite coming to meetings. I don't really know what it is that you expect from the meetings.

Evangelical. Brother. Surely you are not this obtuse. Do you write for The Onion? You should.

I gave an example of someone who killed themselves despite DOING EVERYTHING IN HIS POWER TO REMAIN, ABIDE, AND REJOICE IN THE LORD. I only mentioned that he was in the meetings and serving so that you would have no ground to claim he wasn't a "real believer".

Originally Posted by Evangelical

By all means, get help wherever, if a person is suicidal, gee, what are you expecting a meeting to cure it? Three possible causes : body, soul, spirit. The Bible deals with at least two of those, and even the body too if we see that the Spirit quickens the mortal flesh.

Too nonsensical to even address.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

So, why don't you just go ahead and say what your post is saying:

"Abiding and rejoicing in the Lord is not always a cure for depression"

So depression is stronger than Jesus, and the Lord is not our comforter, it would seem. You didn't even agree that it is a possible cure.

I don't think there is a thing as wrestling with depression. I think they are wrestling with doubt, and doubt is not a real thing either. Doubt is a lack of faith, and lack of faith is because.. we are not abiding in the Lord.

I mean, the Lord's presence kept people strong through martyrdom and many other things, but a first world problem "feeling low", and the Lord is powerless. Come on, are you kidding?

If I did not have other things going on in my life I would have taken a couple extra minutes to add a sentence to my post stating as such. It registered with me but I had other pressing matters. My bad, because now I need to take those few minutes to say it:

"No one is saying that abiding and rejoicing in the Lord is not a cure for depression, or saying that the Lord is powerless. Note that you said a cure. For some, including yourself it seems, that alone can be sufficient. However, as another elder has said to me before, humans are complicated beings. Complicated. Why do we need shepherds, nursing mothers, consoling and exhorting fathers in the church? Because a slap upside the head accompanied by a, "Your problem is that you are not abiding in the Lord" neglects that the spirit at the heart of your flippant "just touch your spirit, are you even a real Christian?" is wrapped up in the wounded hearts of suffering people."

I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth but I imagine this is what Ohio and UntoHim's remarks are related to. The spirit behind your flippant, dismissive posts (again, which are full of Biblical language) neglects to recognize that actual flesh and blood people often need more care, concern, and tenderness than "psh, you are the problem, just touch your spirit".

Again, Evangelical, I would caution you, if anyone comes to you with problems of this nature, be in fear and trembling before the Lord concerning how you respond to them.

[Evangelical]

I would add that if a person abides in the Lord, they can get His care, concern and tenderness, as well as joy. The Lord is a real person who can offer everything you imply the local churches did not provide (care, concern, tenderness etc).

I'm still puzzled by what you wrote "I could sympathize with her feeling because I had heard that thought myself plenty of times growing up in the LC". They only said that we are undeserving sinners and Christ is everything. We are nothing and worthless apart from Christ, is a very normal Christian thing to say. It is a comfort that the Lord only sees Christ, and not us.

[least]

Originally Posted by Trapped

First of all you keep editing and editing and changing all your posts which makes it really difficult to respond to whatever your final word is........

That's right, once E edited after I responded to his post. Made my post stating something that was NOT in his post (he edited that off after I responded to that post).

This is a respond to Trapped's post.
-

[Evangelical]

I know you all mean well, but because of posts against local church elders and subsequent ones, I saw the whole thread has degenerated into a general attack against local church elders and the good work many of them do and the local churches.

As I see it there are 5 entities involved:

The person with depression
her friend (Trapped)
the elders
the local churches in general
Jesus

The important thing I believe is that the person with depression goes to Jesus. Christian comfort to others should be to that end and not an end in itself. Jesus is the real comforter.

Most of your posts have been about the elders and the local churches. They did this, they didn't do that. Well stop blaming the elders and local churches for your problems? I could write pages about how I've been offended in churches, anyone could. The bible talks about not giving but also not taking offense. Roots of bitterness can lead to other things, by the Lord's grace we seek help from Him alone when we are offended.

Prov 19:11 Good sense makes one slow to anger, and it is his glory to overlook an offense.

Lev 19:18 You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord.

Not only have you insinuated that the local churches and the meetings are the cause of depression, you've argued against Jesus being the solution. Just remember whose side you are on.

As it says in Lev 19:18, bearing grudges against others is not loving your neighbor as yourself.

Once everyone has calmed down and not blaming each other, everyone needs to do much more in helping hurting people, there is no doubt about that. Home visits, whatever is needed, where they are at, not expecting them to turn up to a meeting and listen to the latest high peak truth.

[Drake]

Come on folks,

We all recognize that in this forum the problem is not what Brother Evangelical says but what he represents.

People get depressed for many reasons. People, and elders are people too, don’t always say the right thing or react the way we think they should to depression. At some point in our life we will likely have to deal with it in others or in ourselves. I know I have. For me, the Lord always brought me through and out of some dark valleys. As Evangelical rightly said our best hope is in the Lord. Had a forum favorite said it he or she would be heralded as a genius, a person with clarity of thought having escaped the fog of the local churches. Since it was Evangelical, well let’s rent our clothes and throw dust in the air.....



Really, sometimes I fear some here might even deny their faith out of spite just to disagree with something Evangelical says.

Drake

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I would add that if a person abides in the Lord, they can get His care, concern and tenderness, as well as joy. The Lord is a real person who can offer everything you imply the local churches did not provide (care, concern, tenderness etc).
I'm still puzzled by what you wrote "I could sympathize with her feeling because I had heard that thought myself plenty of times growing up in the LC". They only said that we are undeserving sinners and Christ is everything. We are nothing and worthless apart from Christ, is a very normal Christian thing to say. It is a comfort that the Lord only sees Christ, and not us.

Since the tone of your post changed for the better I will respond.

Before I do, I think I need to clarify the reason for my original post. Due to the purpose of this forum it would be easy to assume that any slight question that involves the LCs would come across as a bashing of the LC or registering disapproval the LC. While my post dealt with some LC content, my purpose truly was just to present the situation and get some other eyes on it. I really do not have any other way currently to seek this kind of help or input from any other Christians (LC or non-LC), and this question had been bothering me for a while. If some respond that they think the content is the problem - fine, or that the delivery of the content is the problem - fine, or that the elder's response was accurate or not accurate - fine. I just need other ears on it and other's experience as a possible help to me. This is why I mentioned in my OP that anyone could easily hear the same thought (Christ is all, we are not) from any other non-LC church and that I'm not sure the question is LC-specific. I wasn't looking for only LC-positive or only LC-negative responses. I knew I would get both and that's fine. I just needed some kind of answers to consider for when I see my friend again, or when I encounter this situation with others in the future.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I would add that if a person abides in the Lord, they can get His care, concern and tenderness, as well as joy. The Lord is a real person who can offer everything you imply the local churches did not provide (care, concern, tenderness etc).

I do not recall where I implied that the local churches did not provide care, concern, or tenderness. If I did and you can find the specific quote where I did, more power to you, but that was not my intention, and it was a mistake if I did. Yes, I think we would all agree that the Lord is a real person who can offer everything you mentioned. He is the all in all. He Himself can meet our every need. However, most of us still need to get married. We still need friends and companions. We still need love and to feel valued by other people. So even though the reality is that He alone can be enough for those needs, in a proper sense, the Lord created us as humans with needs designed to be met by other people. I trust you understand what I'm saying here (i.e. I'm not saying the Lord is powerless, etc). While "just turn to your spirit", "just abide in the Lord" is true, because of our design more often than not we need supportive help from those God has placed in the Body. If "just abide in the Lord" truly was enough, any elder responding to a request for fellowship should just roll those words out and turn the saint away since the Lord is better than anyone else. But there's a lot more going on in each of us, so we need extra help through the other members.

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I'm still puzzled by what you wrote "I could sympathize with her feeling because I had heard that thought myself plenty of times growing up in the LC". They only said that we are undeserving sinners and Christ is everything. We are nothing and worthless apart from Christ, is a very normal Christian thing to say. It is a comfort that the Lord only sees Christ, and not us.

Sure, like I said in my OP, this thought can be picked up from many Christian speakings, so I'm not sure if the problem is LC-related necessarily. I can just see very easily that someone who is already depressed (let's "pretend" that depression is a real thing) how it would land wrong in them. People who are depressed often already are bombarded with their own thoughts that they are worthless, they are a bother, they are a waste of breath, no one wants them, they are a burden. To hear that God thinks the same thing must be a devastating blow. Because the other side of it is that God knows the number of hairs on our head. He chose us before the foundation of the world. He created each of us in a wonderful and fearful way. These things, while in the Bible, are not emphasized or even spoken of much at all in the LC, I think with the fear of self-aggrandizement or the contributing to any "self"-esteem (I’m not saying that with intent to bash, I am saying it neutrally in the course of a lot of consideration with the backing of my own experience). But there needs to be a balance. One elder mentioned to me the verse about "not thinking of yourself more highly than you ought" and used that to show that we should think something of ourselves, just not more highly than we ought. It doesn't say don't think highly of yourself at all. Just not more highly than you ought. So we do need to have a healthy level of self-esteem. The Lord wants us even though He knew what miserable, wretched, rotten wrecks we are. It is true we are nothing. But guess what – the Lord still loved you and wanted you and chose you. I think that’s the link that was missing. There was no acknowledgement that the downtrodden person would realize that the Lord knew her wretched condition but still wanted her. Not just her covered in Christ, which is true, but He knows her real uncovered condition and STILL wants her. Sometimes people need to hear certain things like that spoken before they feel the Lord even wants them to approach Him to abide in Him. Otherwise how can someone who thinks the Lord can barely tolerate her begin to try to abide in that very Person who she thinks cannot tolerate her?

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Drake

We all recognize that in this forum the problem is not what Brother Evangelical says but what he represents.
Really, sometimes I fear some here might even deny their faith out of spite just to disagree with something Evangelical says.

Nah, it was statements by Evangelical like claiming my friend wasn't a real Christian, and other things that made me rent my clothes. And somehow he managed to inject a flippant, derisive, dismissive tone even while saying that the Lord is the best hope. But his posts have improved in the past few and he's starting to get into the helpful zone again.

You mentioned another point I forgot to bring up - elders are people too and don't always say the right thing. That actually may very well have been the case here and if so I am happy to hear that as a possibility. It doesn't mean that all elders in the LC are evil. Elders have about 1,000 things on their mind and cannot always respond insightfully. I think the elder in this case just didn't give a full response. I needed the rest of that response!

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I know you all mean well, but because of posts against local church elders and subsequent ones, I saw the whole thread has degenerated into a general attack against local church elders and the good work many of them do and the local churches.

I do not see that anyone argued against Jesus being the solution. I think most responded to what came across as your careless dismissive tone. But the last couple posts you have posted speak more to the human side of things and are much more appreciated, thank you.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Since the tone of your post changed for the better I will respond.

Your original post makes much more sense to me now, thanks, and it was more also the posts which followed that seemed like bashing, and in addressing yours I was addressing them as well (so not everything I wrote applies directly to something you wrote).

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Nah, it was statements by Evangelical like claiming my friend wasn't a real Christian, and other things that made me rent my clothes. And somehow he managed to inject a flippant, derisive, dismissive tone even while saying that the Lord is the best hope. But his posts have improved in the past few and he's starting to get into the helpful zone again.

You mentioned another point I forgot to bring up - elders are people too and don't always say the right thing. That actually may very well have been the case here and if so I am happy to hear that as a possibility. It doesn't mean that all elders in the LC are evil. Elders have about 1,000 things on their mind and cannot always respond insightfully. I think the elder in this case just didn't give a full response. I needed the rest of that response!

I have to post quickly on a little screen. I don't get time or chance to put all the little details in. Also why I need to edit my posts a lot sometimes. I edit because I try to say the right thing in the right way. I really do think about what im saying and how I say it, and feel bad if I make others feel bad. I never really expected people to hate how I said abiding in Jesus was the answer, so.. sorry!

[Trapped]

Everyone else's responses have been helpful too - Nell, a little brother, Ohio, UntoHim, Truthseeker, byHismercy, least - thank you!

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I have to post quickly on a little screen. I don't get time or chance to put all the little details in. Also why I need to edit my posts a lot sometimes. I edit because I try to say the right thing in the right way. I really do think about what im saying and how I say it, and feel bad if I make others feel bad. I never really expected people to hate how I said abiding in Jesus was the answer, so.. sorry!

I appreciate your explanation and understand, thank you. Be at peace.

If anything I said warrants an apology from me, please let me know.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Nah, it was statements by Evangelical like claiming my friend wasn't a real Christian, and other things that made me rent my clothes. And somehow he managed to inject a flippant, derisive, dismissive tone even while saying that the Lord is the best hope. But his posts have improved in the past few and he's starting to get into the helpful zone again.

You mentioned another point I forgot to bring up - elders are people too and don't always say the right thing. That actually may very well have been the case here and if so I am happy to hear that as a possibility. It doesn't mean that all elders in the LC are evil. Elders have about 1,000 things on their mind and cannot always respond insightfully. I think the elder in this case just didn't give a full response. I needed the rest of that response!

Fair enough Trapped.

The challenge with depression is that there are so many causes and often no one knows why it came about.... even the depressed don't always know. So, most everyone is groping in the dark for an explanation and that can be awkward and filled with misunderstanding. A slight facial reaction, a dead pan, a slight tone in the voice, no tone in the voice... everything gets magnified, a person feels judged or a person feels ignored. Its not easy being a good listener.. requires practice. Yet, even a good listener can be misunderstood just for listening!

And, telling a depressed person that they are nothing... and Christ is all may not be ministering the oil and the wine for that moment... yet, on the other hand it may be the timely word to snap someone out of themselves. Whatever the response it certainly should not lead to an indictment of the eldership, the Lord's recovery, the church. For instance, in one account mentioned in this thread a more empathetic response would seem to have been preferred from the elder but we can't get inside the elder's head to hear it the way he heard it from the depressed on that day. If a person leaves because of an apparent lack of response then I'd be inclined to think that person was already more than halfway out the door. I could be wrong but it just looks that way from here. Relationships matter also, I can take something from one person that I can't take from another.... there are so many variables.

In any case, only the Lord's life can really render the help needed to all of us and those of us who are depressed and that may come through direct fellowship but often it comes through a song, or a testimony, a verse and prayer and a genuine touch from the Lord.

Drake

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

In any case, only the Lord's life can really render the help needed to all of us and those of us who are depressed and that may come through direct fellowship but often it comes through a song, or a testimony, a verse and prayer and a genuine touch from the Lord.

Drake

Well not all. Some depression for sure ; like depression as a result of a tragic event or loss. But clinical depression, manic depression/bipolar is best treated by professionals, and usually requires a cocktail of med's.

But is there any wonder that people who are raised that they are born with original sin would suffer depression? That doctrine has serious consequences to the psyche, self identity, and self esteem. It's depressing in and of itself. With that teaching we should put babies on antidepressants when they're born.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by awareness

Well not all. Some depression for sure ; like depression as a result of a tragic event or loss. But clinical depression, manic depression/bipolar is best treated by professionals, and usually requires a cocktail of med's.

But is there any wonder that people who are raised that they are born with original sin would suffer depression? That doctrine has serious consequences to the psyche, self identity, and self esteem. It's depressing in and of itself. With that teaching we should put babies on antidepressants when they're born.

I don't discount that some depression needs medical treatment or psychological help. Yet, I think modern society has gone overboard with the whole meds things..... the medical practitioners are overly enthusiastic about prescribing pills and even to kids. Some of that came be traced back to the pharmaceuticals....

Yet, I think for most situations, even dramatic ones the Lord's life is able to supply.

Drake

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Drake

Yet, I think for most situations, even dramatic ones the Lord's life is able to supply.

We like to think so. But those suffering unexplainable depression will try anything and everything to deal with it. And meds work for awhile, then have to be changed.

If Jesus fixed all our medical problems we wouldn't need doctors, hospitals, insurance, or any of the like.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by awareness

We like to think so. But those suffering unexplainable depression will try anything and everything to deal with it. And meds work for awhile, then have to be changed.

If Jesus fixed all our medical problems we wouldn't need doctors, hospitals, insurance, or any of the like.

Yes, and I think that's another reason why I reacted to the "just turn to your spirit" type thought. More often than not, the Lord doesn't swoop in and fix everything. "Jesus is the answer" sounds good, and I'm not saying He's not, but with most things that's not how He works. Many believers have suffered much throughout the centuries in many ways, and the sufferings did not arise nor continue because of their lack of abiding in the Lord. In fact, taken to the extreme, this thought can and has caused people not to take the action they need to seek appropriate help because they think turning to their spirit is the answer and if that doesn't help then God must have ordained the suffering for them......whereas if they just got medical help ("turning to the doctor") their problem would be solved, the needless and not God-ordained suffering could stop.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Drake

Fair enough Trapped.

The challenge with depression is that there are so many causes and often no one knows why it came about.... even the depressed don't always know. So, most everyone is groping in the dark for an explanation and that can be awkward and filled with misunderstanding. A slight facial reaction, a dead pan, a slight tone in the voice, no tone in the voice... everything gets magnified, a person feels judged or a person feels ignored. Its not easy being a good listener.. requires practice. Yet, even a good listener can be misunderstood just for listening!

And, telling a depressed person that they are nothing... and Christ is all may not be ministering the oil and the wine for that moment... yet, on the other hand it may be the timely word to snap someone out of themselves. Whatever the response it certainly should not lead to an indictment of the eldership, the Lord's recovery, the church. For instance, in one account mentioned in this thread a more empathetic response would seem to have been preferred from the elder but we can't get inside the elder's head to hear it the way he heard it from the depressed on that day. If a person leaves because of an apparent lack of response then I'd be inclined to think that person was already more than halfway out the door. I could be wrong but it just looks that way from here. Relationships matter also, I can take something from one person that I can't take from another.... there are so many variables.

In any case, only the Lord's life can really render the help needed to all of us and those of us who are depressed and that may come through direct fellowship but often it comes through a song, or a testimony, a verse and prayer and a genuine touch from the Lord.

Drake

You make some good points, thank you.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by Trapped

You make some good points, thank you.

Having struggled with depression my whole life (I have clinical depression) both in and out of the LC, thankfully the Lord has helped me deal with it through clinical practitioners as well as the Bible and shepherding of other believers.

There is no one size fits all way to counsel a believer with depression as causes and solutions vary. Loving concern and the truth (rejoice in the Lord always!) go a long way, but sometimes professional counseling and medications are used by the Lord too.

We need to be honest. The high incidence of depression Trapped mentioned when he started this thread are something that shout “something is wrong with the LCs”. The simple platitudes spouted over and over by LC leaders for 50 years have failed because they are “one size fits all”.

For education purposes people with clinical depression (like me) have a mood disorder. Our mood tends to be low regardless of outward circumstances or what our mind thinks about. Something in our biochemistry is constantly sending us “downer” feelings... all the time, and they never let up. People have a hard time understanding people who are clinically depressed or have manic depression (also a mood disorder where ones mood varies between extreme highs and lows) because they think everyone’s mood depends on outward circumstances or what they are thinking. Not so for people with mood disorders.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Yes, and I think that's another reason why I reacted to the "just turn to your spirit" type thought. More often than not, the Lord doesn't swoop in and fix everything. "Jesus is the answer" sounds good, and I'm not saying He's not, but with most things that's not how He works. Many believers have suffered much throughout the centuries in many ways, and the sufferings did not arise nor continue because of their lack of abiding in the Lord. In fact, taken to the extreme, this thought can and has caused people not to take the action they need to seek appropriate help because they think turning to their spirit is the answer and if that doesn't help then God must have ordained the suffering for them......whereas if they just got medical help ("turning to the doctor") their problem would be solved, the needless and not God-ordained suffering could stop.

"Jesus is the answer" does not mean we get healed every time or that the healing is permanent. That is not the case. James says:

James 1:2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds

But somewhere in the trial and suffering of depression, we can find joy. We can be joyful and depressed at the same time. That is how Jesus is the answer. That is why abiding in the Lord is important even if we are not healed, we can be joyful.

We can say "in myself I am depressed, but in you Lord I am joyful".

It's a choice and effort every day and every moment to live in our self or live in the Lord.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Trapped

In fact, taken to the extreme, this thought can and has caused people not to take the action they need to seek appropriate help because they think turning to their spirit is the answer and if that doesn't help then God must have ordained the suffering for them......whereas if they just got medical help ("turning to the doctor") their problem would be solved, the needless and not God-ordained suffering could stop.

And if they apply that principle to their child they risk getting legally charged with child neglect and/or abuse, or worse.

There was a brother that I knew back in the c. in Ft. Lauderdale, that also left. But he eventually went back into the c. in Miami.

Long and short of it, he had a serious drinking problem. He got so many DUI's that he end up on house arrest. When he brought the problem to the elders they told him that they couldn't help him, that he had to seek help outside the local church, like going to AA.

I'd been out decades when he told me this. I was floored. I thought that was just the kind of problem Jesus specialized in. I guess not, according to Miami elders.

If anyone has either a medical or psychological problem, they should do all they can to rectify it, and seek professional help.

Besides, as I remember it, "brother turn to your spirit" actually meant, get with the program ... and follow the authority of the local church administration. Which in my case was, follow Witness Lee.