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Oh Lord, Where Do We Go From Here? Current and former members (and anyone in between!)... tell us what is on your mind and in your heart. |
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#1 |
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One time I found myself with a group of adult church kids, both brothers and sisters, all of whom were disillusioned and bitter about their years growing up the local churches. During the time one of the sisters expressed that she was struggling with depression and feelings of low self-worth, and that one reason (of many) she stopped going to the meetings was that hearing things like “You are nothing and Christ is everything, all we are is worthless and sinful, you deserved the cross and God can only even stand to look at you because you are covered in Christ and thus when He looks at you He sees Christ, otherwise He would be repulsed by you and cannot exist where you are” made her feel even worse about herself than she already did.
I could sympathize with her feeling because I had heard that thought myself plenty of times growing up in the LC, but was also frustrated that I really had nothing of substance to offer her besides just lending an ear. I really didn’t know how to respond. A few days after that I relayed the story to an elder and his response was, “I agree, someone in her state of mind should not go to the meetings.” While that was not the response I expected, it also didn’t quite land right with me but I couldn’t figure out why. I told the story and elder’s response to another saint and they agreed with the elder, likening the speaking in the meetings to rich food, and that when someone is sick they cannot handle rich food. Does anyone have any input/advice/response to this? While I understand the concept of a sick person not handling rich food, I realized what hit me wrong was that we are all “sick people”. The Lord came exactly for the sick, depressed, downtrodden, crushed, lowly. These ones needing help shouldn’t come to the church? Only mentally and emotionally fully healthy people are suited to hear what is spoken? I had the thought that maybe what is being spoken in the meetings, or the way it is being conveyed, could be the problem. On the other hand, maybe there is some truth to it and if we are not in the right condition to hear certain things, it is better we don’t hear them? I don’t know. I just hated not being able to have any answer for her and would appreciate any thoughts anyone has. I also realize that it would be possible for someone in a non-LC church also struggling with depression to pick up this same thought and be turned off by it, so I'm not 100% sure it's an LC-specific thing, although others can probably speak more to that than I can. |
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#2 |
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Trapped,
Many years ago, my father had died in the previous few weeks, and "the elder" summoned me to Sunday lunch to inquire as to why I had not been to meetings in "awhile". My response, in the following hour, was explaining in tears and a whisper which I could hardly speak. I had lost my father and was starting to realize that I would never see him again in this life. My heart was breaking and attending church meetings like a good little girl were the farthest thing from my mind. When I finished my truly pitiful discourse to him, he said nothing. I asked "do you have anything to say to me?" He said "no not really." What could a concerned Christian say? "Can we pray for you now?" "My wife and I love you and will pray for you." "Is there anything you need?" "How can we help you through this time?" What's wrong with this picture? This elder exposed his own spiritual bankruptcy. When you turn to "the church" and receive nothing...no spiritual guidance...not even a prayer or expression of love for you, is this really "the church"? These men are supposed to shepherd the flock. Instead, they have nothing. Rich food? If it was rich food spoken by the Holy Spirit, it would bring healing and nourishment. Even comfort. After this experience, I may have attended one more meeting, but essentially, I never went back. My advice to you and your friends is to walk away. Express your love and concern for each other. Seek counseling from a professional. I turned to my family for comfort and we all went through losing our father together. John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. Are these men His disciples if they can't even express their love to the brothers who are hurting? Notice, this is not a suggestion or a good idea. It's a COMMANDMENT! Again, find a good Christian counselor and hold on to one another. Thank Him that you see something these "elders" don't! Maybe the Lord is showing you something! Nell |
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#3 | |
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I think the nutrition is love which is so seldomly mentioned in the LSM messages. The "church life" promoted is "God's economy" oriented instead of love oriented. "Christ as our person" neglects all the good in our transformed person as if God loves only Himself. Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. If God already loves us while we were still sinners, would He loves us any less as His children? |
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#4 | |
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Back in the mid-80's the LCM became inundated with a legalistic, military spirit (Gideon's army) which was extremely intolerant. Many of those whom I would consider real shepherds and brotherly/sisterly were discarded for the more zealous, military types which rose in prominence both at LSM and in the LC's. Philip Lee, placed in charge of the LC western hemisphere, placed no value on love, rather "what have you done for me lately, and what can you do for me right now." Today in the LCM there is almost no value placed on Christian counseling, providing for ones gifted in this way to grow and prosper in the church. Anything remotely like this is considered "chicken soup for the soul," or that evil "self-help" which suffers condemnation with the rest of Christianity. Why? Simple. It points to the utter failure of this ministry to provide real food and guidance for spiritual edification. Hence, they would rather lose people by the droves than to have any one of them find help from Joyce Meyer, James Dobson, or thousands others. What they now call "rich food" is just dead esoteric doctrines, frozen and rewarmed, again and again, stored in clammy cold storage, void of anointing, and repackaged as fresh, organic, healthy foodstuffs. Nobody wants this stuff. Not even their own people.
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#5 |
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Depression is a sign of not abiding in the Lord. Often because of sin as David experienced his downcast soul in the Psalms. The cure is to abide in the Lord. The Lord is always joyful and is a funny guy too.
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#6 |
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Then why was Paul so depressed, weighed down by so many cares, despaired even of life, and Watchman Nee so depressed?
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#7 |
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Mr E, do you know what's another sign of not abiding in the Lord? It is not having love, understanding and compassion for your neighbor. If you would put down "The Ministry" long enough to read the story of the Good Samaritan, you would see that much of what you post on this forum is diametrically opposed to the message of the Gospel, which is the absolute expression of the life, heart and character of the Lord Jesus...you know...that guy that you claim to be abiding in.
The Gospel is the very core, the very foundation of our Christian life. Anyone who tells you that there is a "higher gospel" is greatly deceived, and whoever teaches such a thing is a deceiver. I'm quite certain that the priest and the Levite who ignored that man laying in the street, and "past by on the other side", thought that they were abiding in the Lord and living out their "higher gospel". I would ask you...no, I would beg you, to consider what Nell and the others have posted right here. Ask the Lord why it is you don't have a heart for the wounded ones? Why to you turn a blind eye and cold shoulder towards your brothers and sisters who have been stripped, beaten and left for half dead? Maybe you think "they deserve it" for abandoning "the Ministry", or not speaking the praises of Witness Lee. Just sayin... -
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Now Unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy (Jude 24) |
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#8 |
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Yeah, we are nothing and Christ is everything and He can fill us with peace, love and joy. And our life is meaningful if we can be truly filled with His divine life and nature. We will feel worthy and full of confidence like Paul who said "I can encounter everything through Him who fortified me. (Philippians 4:13)"
But in the Local churches under LSM direction, we are nothing and Witness Lee and Blended Brothers' glory, pride and success are everything. That's why we can feel very weird spirits among them and it can't help us grow up properly and biblically. |
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#9 | |
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You could have just agreed with me, and quoted 1 Thess 5:16 Always be joyful, which my post was basically a paraphrase of. But you didn't, either because you can't, or you think it is better to use what I said to attack me and the ministry. You had to turn what I said into something about me , claiming "I don't have a heart for wounded ones". When you accuse or insinuate that others are Pharisees without a heart, you are being just like them. But that is a relative argument, "you are this and I am not but if you say I am not then you in fact are!". I prefer absolutes, and the absolute solution to depression in the bible is to be joyful. |
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#10 | |
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Paul went through so much he should have been depressed, but he was joyful in the Lord. Depression in a first world country is a modern disease of affluence. I haven't met anyone yet with depression who didn't have food, clothes and a roof over their head. And I seen people in 3rd world countries with more joy. In that case I would tell them to snap out of it, stop feeling sorry for themselves and do something meaningful, stop feeding the depression demon. If you go to a pscyhologist they might treat you with CBT (a therapist helps you identify negative or false thoughts and replace those thoughts with healthier, more realistic ones) which is basically biblical teaching marketed in a secular way. For me whatever I needed I just call on the Lord a few times myself or with the brothers and my problems go away and God answers. It works for me and others you tell me why it doesn't work for everyone? |
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#11 | |
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#12 |
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So I've basically been attacked by the forum moderator for sharing what is possibly some of the best advice and help about depression ever. By that I mean it's straight from the bible and experience. It can also be found in the teachings of Christianity and in psychology.
What I wrote is basically what John Piper says in "sorrowful yet always-rejoicing": https://www.desiringgod.org/messages...ways-rejoicing “What the world needs from the church is our indomitable joy in Jesus in the midst of suffering and sorrow” Only Christians know how to have joy in the midst of suffering - by abiding in the Lord. Firstly, sorrow and depression, two completely different things. I think depression is not real. It's not a real illness. It's a culture syndrome. This is a quote by a psychologist: "In western anglophone societies we have developed an ethic of happiness, in which aberrations … are assumed to indicate illness," Here are supporting articles: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3635547/ https://www.theguardian.com/science/...lly-determined It's real because we think it's real and other's in our culture tell us it's real. In third world countries, everyone is suffering, yet happy, why? Because they aren't going around complaining how depressed they are. It's in the mind, literally. Our minds can be changed. Get in the Word, pray-read, call on the Lord, our mind can change, and we can be joyful. Get our mind off ourself. Count our blessings. Do we have food, clothing, shelter, are we content? Don't fight it. You fight it, it wins, because it's not real. It's like fighting an imaginary opponent, you never win because your imagined opponent is always stronger. Depression is not a fight or struggle. Depression is because we aren't abiding in the Lord. Depression is not something we should fight or struggle with, we overcome it by abiding in the Lord. There is only two conditions of a Christian - in the Lord and not in the Lord. There is no such thing as a Christian abiding in the Lord who is also in depression. Don't struggle to fight an imaginary opponent who always wins. Struggle to abide in the Lord, and that imaginary opponent will disappear. |
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#13 | |
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"For we do not want you to be ignorant brothers, as to our affliction having happened in Asia, that we were weighed against excessively, beyond our power, so as for us to despair even to live." II Cor 1.8 Sorry E, but you seem to have a shallow, "book-knowledge-only" understanding of the Christian life. Reading only "the ministry" will do that to you.
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#14 |
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Rather, you were admonished and entreated by the moderator.
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#15 | |
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#16 |
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In the OP, first paragraph, someone stopped going to meetings because they heard " “You are nothing and Christ is everything, all we are is worthless and sinful etc".
Why would a real Christian find that depressing? You can hear that message in almost any evangelical church on a Sunday, I'm guessing. Not everyone sees the positive in the gospel. Some see the cross as cruelty and want nothing to do with a God who tortures His Son. Some may find the gospel depressing. A believer wouldn't. I'm sorry if I don't see a problem with the gospel being the cause of depression. I am sorry that the moderator does not want you to know that abiding in the Lord is the best solution, as I was "admonished and entreated" for saying so. |
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#17 |
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For saying nothing except what the Bible says (and John Piper) - rejoice always.
Please quote me which would indicate that "I don't have a heart for wounded ones". If you cannot produce such a quote then an apology and a retraction would be the appropriate Christian thing to do. |
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#18 | |
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That sounds like another Pharisee-like judgement of my heart, Ohio! You could have agreed with the biblical solution to depression, as well, but didn't, because you'd rather attack, gnashing of teeth too I bet. |
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#19 |
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In any case someone missed the action:
Someone posted this: Depression is a sign of not abiding in the Lord. Often because of sin as David experienced his downcast soul in the Psalms. The cure is to abide in the Lord. The moderator replied with a highly presumptuous personal attack: Ask the Lord why it is you don't have a heart for the wounded ones? Why to you turn a blind eye and cold shoulder towards your brothers and sisters who have been stripped, beaten and left for half dead? They wrote: "you would see that much of what you post on this forum is diametrically opposed to the message of the Gospel" Ok, so apparently "The cure is to abide in the Lord" is "diametrically opposed to the message of the Gospel". Here's your chance Mr Moderator to prove it. Quote me where I ever said or implied we should "turn a blind eye and cold shoulder towards your brothers and sisters who have been stripped, beaten and left for half dead". You will soon find that this portrayal of me is merely an extension of your imagination and beliefs about the local churches. |
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#20 | |||
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No answer? Why not tell her what the bible says - rejoice in the Lord always. Get over the bitterness - forgive, or whatever you have to do, and move on. In my experience, if local church people say anything in the meeting, it's with a smile, rejoicing, hallelujahs and the occasional fist pump. Sincere or not, I don't know, but it shouldn't make anyone depressed! |
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#21 | |
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Satan in the church? You bet! There are some very lovely and loving people in the recovery and also some very cold people. The difference between the two may be a spirit as in your case, or some other reason. If they shun you, what can you do, but move on. |
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#22 | |
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Evan, there can be no abiding in Him, if the love of God is neglected.....where is the love of the brethren in the LC? For your brethren outside the LC, it is refused to them....therefore no abiding in the Lord.... |
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#23 |
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Evangelical, if I was depressed I think the cure would probably be reading your responses in this thread as you have just made me laugh and laugh....
I would elaborate but I've gotta run to the nearest hospital and tell all the struggling new mothers in the maternity wards that Dr. Evangelical, M.D. says their postpartum depression is simply from their not abiding in the Lord. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() But I also hope and pray that no one makes the mistake of coming to you with actual serious problems of this nature. Your responses, even though they are cloaked in Biblical language, are actually quite dangerous and irresponsible. I had forgotten him until just now but there was a brother in his twenties many years ago who we all in the church could tell was desperately reaching and grasping for the Lord. He was in all the meetings and served in the church and would sometimes yell out in the meeting in his desperate attempt for the Lord to break through, not caring what anyone thought of his open suffering. If anyone was depressed, it was him. And if anyone was trying to abide in the Lord, it was him. He killed himself a few years later because the depression got too much. I'll thank you not to purport that a good friend of mine that you have never met is not "a real Christian" or [not] "a believer" simply because she is wrestling with something you very clearly do not understand. This kind of thought to someone who is already struggling yet grasping for the Lord can easily have, and has had, disastrous results. Additionally, it is not true that the depression rate is lower in third world countries, it is just that there is less available data concerning depression in those areas. Most studies done in third world areas only include the rates of reported clinical depression, not rates of actual depression. If people in third world countries are dealing with physical threats to their life, they are not going to go around reporting or seeking treatment for depression until the threats to their life have abated. It does NOT mean that they do not have depression. ![]() |
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#24 |
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I think most of that about post natal depression is nonsense (i.e. not so relevant, the point regarding any medical condition is well understood) and you know why? Because you were concerned that the elder did not want her to come to meetings. If that is your primary concern, and if you know people have killed themselves despite coming to meetings, why would you take issue with what the elder said? Your point is that people who need help should be encouraged to come to meetings, right? But you're contradicting yourself because you gave an example of someone who killed themselves despite coming to meetings. I don't really know what it is that you expect from the meetings.
By all means, get help wherever, if a person is suicidal, gee, what are you expecting a meeting to cure it? Three possible causes : body, soul, spirit. The Bible deals with at least two of those, and even the body too if we see that the Spirit quickens the mortal flesh. So, why don't you just go ahead and say what your post is saying: "Abiding and rejoicing in the Lord is not always a cure for depression" So depression is stronger than Jesus, and the Lord is not our comforter, it would seem. You didn't even agree that it is a possible cure. I don't think there is a thing as wrestling with depression. I think they are wrestling with doubt, and doubt is not a real thing either. Doubt is a lack of faith, and lack of faith is because.. we are not abiding in the Lord. I mean, the Lord's presence kept people strong through martyrdom and many other things, but a first world problem "feeling low", and the Lord is powerless. Come on, are you kidding? |
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#25 | |
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#26 | |
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If the elders in the church are not willing to pray for the sick.....it is an assembly without the love of God....a true sign of error. Time to seek another assembly, one without the red flags the LC is flying. |
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#27 |
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Evan, I tell you this in love....it is falsified love and falsified fellowship when it will be withdrawn when the "proper ground" requirement of the LC is not met. The proper ground doctrine is not scriptural, and not held by God as a crucial faith item. It is nowhere to be found, without merit, as doctrine. It is bad doctrine. He doesn't care where we meet, in fact this doctrine makes God a liar....which He cannot be. Why did He teach us 《whereever 2 or 3 gather in My name, there I am》 if He cared about city boundaries and local ground? How can I be held to this doctrine when there is no LC in my actual locality? The LC is 30 miles from my city. He desires to be worshipped in spirit and in truth....not within the bounds of the LC ground doctrine!
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#28 |
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Why didn't she call the elders then? If she did, and they didn't pray, that's wrong! If I was the elder someone said "your meetings are making me sick", I wouldn't know how to pray.
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#29 | |
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#30 | |||||
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First of all you keep editing and editing and changing all your posts which makes it really difficult to respond to whatever your final word is........
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I gave an example of someone who killed themselves despite DOING EVERYTHING IN HIS POWER TO REMAIN, ABIDE, AND REJOICE IN THE LORD. I only mentioned that he was in the meetings and serving so that you would have no ground to claim he wasn't a "real believer". Quote:
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"No one is saying that abiding and rejoicing in the Lord is not a cure for depression, or saying that the Lord is powerless. Note that you said a cure. For some, including yourself it seems, that alone can be sufficient. However, as another elder has said to me before, humans are complicated beings. Complicated. Why do we need shepherds, nursing mothers, consoling and exhorting fathers in the church? Because a slap upside the head accompanied by a, "Your problem is that you are not abiding in the Lord" neglects that the spirit at the heart of your flippant "just touch your spirit, are you even a real Christian?" is wrapped up in the wounded hearts of suffering people." I don't want to put words in anyone's mouth but I imagine this is what Ohio and UntoHim's remarks are related to. The spirit behind your flippant, dismissive posts (again, which are full of Biblical language) neglects to recognize that actual flesh and blood people often need more care, concern, and tenderness than "psh, you are the problem, just touch your spirit". Again, Evangelical, I would caution you, if anyone comes to you with problems of this nature, be in fear and trembling before the Lord concerning how you respond to them. |
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#31 |
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I would add that if a person abides in the Lord, they can get His care, concern and tenderness, as well as joy. The Lord is a real person who can offer everything you imply the local churches did not provide (care, concern, tenderness etc).
I'm still puzzled by what you wrote "I could sympathize with her feeling because I had heard that thought myself plenty of times growing up in the LC". They only said that we are undeserving sinners and Christ is everything. We are nothing and worthless apart from Christ, is a very normal Christian thing to say. It is a comfort that the Lord only sees Christ, and not us. |
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#32 | |
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This is a respond to Trapped's post. - |
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#33 |
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I know you all mean well, but because of posts against local church elders and subsequent ones, I saw the whole thread has degenerated into a general attack against local church elders and the good work many of them do and the local churches.
As I see it there are 5 entities involved: The person with depression her friend (Trapped) the elders the local churches in general Jesus The important thing I believe is that the person with depression goes to Jesus. Christian comfort to others should be to that end and not an end in itself. Jesus is the real comforter. Most of your posts have been about the elders and the local churches. They did this, they didn't do that. Well stop blaming the elders and local churches for your problems? I could write pages about how I've been offended in churches, anyone could. The bible talks about not giving but also not taking offense. Roots of bitterness can lead to other things, by the Lord's grace we seek help from Him alone when we are offended. Prov 19:11 Good sense makes one slow to anger, and it is his glory to overlook an offense. Lev 19:18 You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against the sons of your own people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord. Not only have you insinuated that the local churches and the meetings are the cause of depression, you've argued against Jesus being the solution. Just remember whose side you are on. As it says in Lev 19:18, bearing grudges against others is not loving your neighbor as yourself. Once everyone has calmed down and not blaming each other, everyone needs to do much more in helping hurting people, there is no doubt about that. Home visits, whatever is needed, where they are at, not expecting them to turn up to a meeting and listen to the latest high peak truth. |
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#34 |
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Come on folks,
We all recognize that in this forum the problem is not what Brother Evangelical says but what he represents. People get depressed for many reasons. People, and elders are people too, don’t always say the right thing or react the way we think they should to depression. At some point in our life we will likely have to deal with it in others or in ourselves. I know I have. For me, the Lord always brought me through and out of some dark valleys. As Evangelical rightly said our best hope is in the Lord. Had a forum favorite said it he or she would be heralded as a genius, a person with clarity of thought having escaped the fog of the local churches. Since it was Evangelical, well let’s rent our clothes and throw dust in the air..... ![]() Really, sometimes I fear some here might even deny their faith out of spite just to disagree with something Evangelical says. Drake |
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#35 | |||
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Before I do, I think I need to clarify the reason for my original post. Due to the purpose of this forum it would be easy to assume that any slight question that involves the LCs would come across as a bashing of the LC or registering disapproval the LC. While my post dealt with some LC content, my purpose truly was just to present the situation and get some other eyes on it. I really do not have any other way currently to seek this kind of help or input from any other Christians (LC or non-LC), and this question had been bothering me for a while. If some respond that they think the content is the problem - fine, or that the delivery of the content is the problem - fine, or that the elder's response was accurate or not accurate - fine. I just need other ears on it and other's experience as a possible help to me. This is why I mentioned in my OP that anyone could easily hear the same thought (Christ is all, we are not) from any other non-LC church and that I'm not sure the question is LC-specific. I wasn't looking for only LC-positive or only LC-negative responses. I knew I would get both and that's fine. I just needed some kind of answers to consider for when I see my friend again, or when I encounter this situation with others in the future. Quote:
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#36 | |
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You mentioned another point I forgot to bring up - elders are people too and don't always say the right thing. That actually may very well have been the case here and if so I am happy to hear that as a possibility. It doesn't mean that all elders in the LC are evil. Elders have about 1,000 things on their mind and cannot always respond insightfully. I think the elder in this case just didn't give a full response. I needed the rest of that response! |
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#37 |
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I do not see that anyone argued against Jesus being the solution. I think most responded to what came across as your careless dismissive tone. But the last couple posts you have posted speak more to the human side of things and are much more appreciated, thank you.
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#38 |
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Your original post makes much more sense to me now, thanks, and it was more also the posts which followed that seemed like bashing, and in addressing yours I was addressing them as well (so not everything I wrote applies directly to something you wrote).
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#39 | |
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#40 |
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Everyone else's responses have been helpful too - Nell, a little brother, Ohio, UntoHim, Truthseeker, byHismercy, least - thank you!
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#41 | |
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If anything I said warrants an apology from me, please let me know. |
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#42 | |
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The challenge with depression is that there are so many causes and often no one knows why it came about.... even the depressed don't always know. So, most everyone is groping in the dark for an explanation and that can be awkward and filled with misunderstanding. A slight facial reaction, a dead pan, a slight tone in the voice, no tone in the voice... everything gets magnified, a person feels judged or a person feels ignored. Its not easy being a good listener.. requires practice. Yet, even a good listener can be misunderstood just for listening! And, telling a depressed person that they are nothing... and Christ is all may not be ministering the oil and the wine for that moment... yet, on the other hand it may be the timely word to snap someone out of themselves. Whatever the response it certainly should not lead to an indictment of the eldership, the Lord's recovery, the church. For instance, in one account mentioned in this thread a more empathetic response would seem to have been preferred from the elder but we can't get inside the elder's head to hear it the way he heard it from the depressed on that day. If a person leaves because of an apparent lack of response then I'd be inclined to think that person was already more than halfway out the door. I could be wrong but it just looks that way from here. Relationships matter also, I can take something from one person that I can't take from another.... there are so many variables. In any case, only the Lord's life can really render the help needed to all of us and those of us who are depressed and that may come through direct fellowship but often it comes through a song, or a testimony, a verse and prayer and a genuine touch from the Lord. Drake |
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#43 | |
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But is there any wonder that people who are raised that they are born with original sin would suffer depression? That doctrine has serious consequences to the psyche, self identity, and self esteem. It's depressing in and of itself. With that teaching we should put babies on antidepressants when they're born.
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“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous.” - Carl Sagan . |
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#44 | |
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Yet, I think for most situations, even dramatic ones the Lord's life is able to supply. Drake |
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#45 | |
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If Jesus fixed all our medical problems we wouldn't need doctors, hospitals, insurance, or any of the like.
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“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous.” - Carl Sagan . |
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#46 | |
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Yes, and I think that's another reason why I reacted to the "just turn to your spirit" type thought. More often than not, the Lord doesn't swoop in and fix everything. "Jesus is the answer" sounds good, and I'm not saying He's not, but with most things that's not how He works. Many believers have suffered much throughout the centuries in many ways, and the sufferings did not arise nor continue because of their lack of abiding in the Lord. In fact, taken to the extreme, this thought can and has caused people not to take the action they need to seek appropriate help because they think turning to their spirit is the answer and if that doesn't help then God must have ordained the suffering for them......whereas if they just got medical help ("turning to the doctor") their problem would be solved, the needless and not God-ordained suffering could stop. |
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#47 | |
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You make some good points, thank you. |
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#48 |
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Having struggled with depression my whole life (I have clinical depression) both in and out of the LC, thankfully the Lord has helped me deal with it through clinical practitioners as well as the Bible and shepherding of other believers.
There is no one size fits all way to counsel a believer with depression as causes and solutions vary. Loving concern and the truth (rejoice in the Lord always!) go a long way, but sometimes professional counseling and medications are used by the Lord too. We need to be honest. The high incidence of depression Trapped mentioned when he started this thread are something that shout “something is wrong with the LCs”. The simple platitudes spouted over and over by LC leaders for 50 years have failed because they are “one size fits all”. For education purposes people with clinical depression (like me) have a mood disorder. Our mood tends to be low regardless of outward circumstances or what our mind thinks about. Something in our biochemistry is constantly sending us “downer” feelings... all the time, and they never let up. People have a hard time understanding people who are clinically depressed or have manic depression (also a mood disorder where ones mood varies between extreme highs and lows) because they think everyone’s mood depends on outward circumstances or what they are thinking. Not so for people with mood disorders.
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And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:14 NASB) |
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#49 | |
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James 1:2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds But somewhere in the trial and suffering of depression, we can find joy. We can be joyful and depressed at the same time. That is how Jesus is the answer. That is why abiding in the Lord is important even if we are not healed, we can be joyful. We can say "in myself I am depressed, but in you Lord I am joyful". It's a choice and effort every day and every moment to live in our self or live in the Lord. |
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#50 | |
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There was a brother that I knew back in the c. in Ft. Lauderdale, that also left. But he eventually went back into the c. in Miami. Long and short of it, he had a serious drinking problem. He got so many DUI's that he end up on house arrest. When he brought the problem to the elders they told him that they couldn't help him, that he had to seek help outside the local church, like going to AA. I'd been out decades when he told me this. I was floored. I thought that was just the kind of problem Jesus specialized in. I guess not, according to Miami elders. If anyone has either a medical or psychological problem, they should do all they can to rectify it, and seek professional help. Besides, as I remember it, "brother turn to your spirit" actually meant, get with the program ... and follow the authority of the local church administration. Which in my case was, follow Witness Lee.
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“One of the saddest lessons of history is this: If we've been bamboozled long enough, we tend to reject any evidence of the bamboozle. We're no longer interested in finding out the truth. The bamboozle has captured us. It is simply too painful to acknowledge -- even to ourselves -- that we've been so credulous.” - Carl Sagan . |
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