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Glorious Church Life! Discussions regarding the beginnings of the Local Church in the USA/North America. Emphasis on the 60s and 70s.

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Old 04-05-2018, 01:18 PM   #1
Truthseeker
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Default What was Witness Lee thinking about Daystar ?

I just knew that Lee had Daystar business. I didn't want to know so much for this business .But I am shocked by the name Daystar because it refers to Lucifer's name:

How you have fallen from heaven, / O Daystar, son of the dawn! / How you have been hewn down to earth, / You who made nations fall prostrate! (Isaiah 14:18)

What was Witness Lee thinking ? Why did he name his business like this ?
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Old 04-05-2018, 01:29 PM   #2
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Default Re: What was Witness Lee thinking about Daystar ?

It is definitely a suspicious naming choice.

UntoHim on another thread about Daystar posted the following alternative explanation for the name:

Quote:
2Peter 1:19 (KJV)
"We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts" (most modern versions have it as "morning star")
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Old 04-06-2018, 04:50 PM   #3
aron
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Default Re: What was Witness Lee thinking about Daystar ?

Someone could start a thread on WL bon mots.

Spiritual Giants: term for Nee and Lee; aka restless spirits of drowned offspring of angels and humans in Gen 6 (cf Matt 12:43).

Little Bankers: getting children used to turning money over to the LC.

Donation: what's happened when one's investment in Daystar vanishes.

Deputy God: self-description of a person who's filled with self-importance (see also: MOTA; Acting God; God's Oracle; Seer of the Divine Revelation &c).

Youth Propagation Groups: Children's Indoctrination and Recruitment Centres.

Processed: description of what happened to God in LC theology.

Consummated: description of what happened to God when WL ran out of ideas.

Rich ministry: self-description of someone not looking away unto Jesus but instead regarding themselves.

Training: description of WL telling someone what to do or think (see also: Perfecting; Correcting; Adjusting; Teaching; Fellowship &c).

Attacking: description of someone telling WL what to do or think (see also: Accusing; Slander; Rebelling &c)
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Old 04-06-2018, 05:02 PM   #4
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Default Re: What was Witness Lee thinking about Daystar ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Truthseeker View Post
I just knew that Lee had Daystar business. I didn't want to know so much for this business .But I am shocked by the name Daystar because it refers to Lucifer's name:

How you have fallen from heaven, / O Daystar, son of the dawn! / How you have been hewn down to earth, / You who made nations fall prostrate! (Isaiah 14:18)

What was Witness Lee thinking ? Why did he name his business like this ?
The devil is in the details ... and the outcome too. Those that lost their life savings should have caught on by just the name, before investing.

And all of Lee's business dealing's were shifty. As were Nee's.

When Lee was asked about the saints that lost money he said, "They lost their virginity." So maybe he used that name so that after stealing their money he could say : "You should have known better."
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Old 04-06-2018, 05:41 PM   #5
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Default Re: What was Witness Lee thinking about Daystar ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Truthseeker View Post
I just knew that Lee had Daystar business. I didn't want to know so much for this business .But I am shocked by the name Daystar because it refers to Lucifer's name:

How you have fallen from heaven, / O Daystar, son of the dawn! / How you have been hewn down to earth, / You who made nations fall prostrate! (Isaiah 14:18)

What was Witness Lee thinking ? Why did he name his business like this ?

What about the evangelical tv network called daystar?
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Old 10-26-2018, 10:50 AM   #6
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Default Re: What was Witness Lee thinking about Daystar ?

Posted on facebook from ex member:
"This is a picture of my dad, Merle McIntyre, in front of one of the Daystar motor homes. He was very instrumental in setting up the manufacturing plant in Taiwan. He put his life savings into Daystar and when it failed, he had to go back to work and worked until his death at age 77. Thank you, LC and WL!"

Other comments:
"I worked with your dad in Taiwan. He and I spent a weekend together in Hong Kong. That is a great memory. But I must say that we saw a dark side of WL when he was involved hands-on in running the business. Speaking for myself, I was so convinced that he was God's appointed Oracle on this Earth that I closed my eyes to what was glaringly obvious about his character."

And the saddest one of all:
"Just another comment: Bill's mother ( my mother-in-law) lived another 17 years in poverty and died penniless as a result."

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Old 10-26-2018, 09:32 PM   #7
awareness
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Default Re: What was Witness Lee thinking about Daystar ?

Thanks Ex 15 yr LC member.
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Old 10-29-2018, 06:49 PM   #8
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Default Re: What was Witness Lee thinking about Daystar ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Truthseeker View Post
What was Witness Lee thinking?
What's important about Daystar as a point in the LC discussion/history is this: it's not that the Lee family siphoned off cash into their pockets and walked away when it was gone. No, it's worse than that. Embezzlement? Fraud? No, even worse.

Suppose that Daystar had been a financial success, and all the 'investors' actually got something for their money. They'd put in, say, $1,000, and ten years later it's grown in value and is worth, let's say, $1,650, which they're free to cash out. Like a 'real' or 'genuine' or 'proper' investment (sorry, couldn't resist).

Quote:
Originally Posted by DonRutledge View Post
Starting around 1972, Witness Lee expressed a concern for the financial suffering of the migrating saints and their need to be able to purchase proper meeting places. I was in a meeting of visiting elders and co-workers in which he introduced the Daystar business. He shared that his son Timothy had approached him about a business and that the business seemed to Witness Lee to be ideal for us (the local churches). The brothers and sisters could invest money, earn a nice profit of around 35%, and generate significant profit for the support of the new churches. He then spoke of manufacturing only the finest product. We could produce the product in Taiwan, which would help the believers there with employment and sell the product in the USA. He spoke at length concerning how the members of the churches should only invest their surplus and that he felt very positive that this was of the Lord. The business consisted of manufacturing and selling an expensive motor home. This was certainly a very different meeting than anything I had ever attended. I and others left with our heads spinning. I was bothered and asked James Barber what was going on. He replied that Witness Lee was God’s anointed and I should be very careful about criticizing. He declared that even if Witness Lee was wrong, God would bless the endeavor.
Suppose Timothy Lee had been an effective business leader and they'd somehow not only survived the OPEC gas crunch but prospered. You know, quality, value, service . . I mean, Mercedes Benz survived; suppose Daystar hadn't been the failure it turned into. Then what?

My point is this: it still would have shown the lack of transformation of the leader of the Lord's Recovery, Witness Lee. Because when a young man inherited some money, and laid it at Witness Lee's feet, WL didn't think of how to advance the gospel, or to help the poor or the sick.

No, the only thought was, how to divert this sudden financial windfall to his family. That's what Witness Lee was thinking.

And this was after the humbling messes he'd already gotten into in the Far East, some also involving Timothy, before coming to the USA in 1962. WL was not, carefully contrived appearances to the contrary, the 'spiritual man' that Watchman Nee had elucidated. The 'spiritual man' shtick was just a cover for a fallen person trying to take care of his family (of grown children, no less) by suckering money out of gullible rubes. Daystar is Exhibit A in this regard. Unfortunately there are others well, but it's one of the clearest examples. All the mystical rhetoric got set aside when there was cash to be made (and note where the cash came from, not through sales of a product on the market but rather from the bank accounts of star-struck church members).
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Old 10-30-2018, 08:58 PM   #9
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Default Re: What was Witness Lee thinking about Daystar ?

If Witness Lee was the Christian he claimed, and what others believed him to be, given the Daystar debacle the minister of the age would have never started Daystar (strike 1). But since he did, something like this:

1. When Daystar tanked, all who "loaned" money to Daystar would have retained the notes signed by the Daystar "executives".
2. Witness Lee would have made something like the following statement:
a) I was wrong to have involved the churches in my personal business venture. I repent for my behavior and beg your forgiveness.
b) From this day forward, my life's work will be to repay to the last farthing, each of you who trusted me with the money the Lord entrusted to you for your livelihood.
c) Your funds will accrue interest at the the APR of 35%, until fully repaid.
d) Once again, I repent for involving you, and seek your forgiveness. If you wish to speak with me personally, please let me know and I will meet with you and answer your questions until you are fully satisfied.
3. Until I have paid my debt to each of you, my ministry will cease.


He could have used funds generated by the LSM to repay the investors, but that would be equivalent to the investors repaying themselves. That is, Nell volunteering 100 hours, e.g., to the LSM/Lee so it could make money to repay its debt to Nell, with the money Nell spent on merchandise from Lee/LSM...that is, taking money from my left pocket and putting it in my right pocket and marking the debt “paid”. This is, or would be, even more vulgar than what actually did happen. (Strike 2)

I loaned Daystar money in 1972-73. It wasn't much, but it was meaningful to me at the time. If Daystar or some such business repaid me TODAY at 35% per year for 36 years, it would be a nice little chunk.

I apply this to Lee and Daystar, because a fine Christian man I worked for a few years ago ran out of money to pay me. He started a new profitable business and forgot all about the money he owed me. He told me he couldn't pay me because all the money from the first business was "gone." At this point, I don't need for him to pay me what he owes me, but HE NEEDS to pay me what he owes me from whatever funds exist.

In the same way, Lee, for his own sake, should have paid the saints back for the money he took from them, instead he took strike 3 lookin’.

Nell

Last edited by Nell; 10-30-2018 at 10:13 PM.
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Old 10-31-2018, 05:13 AM   #10
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Default Re: What was Witness Lee thinking about Daystar ?

What troubled me about Daystar was not so much that the "get rich quick" scheme went belly up, but that debt-ridden Stream Publishers quietly transitioned into the lucrative Living Stream Ministry. LSM has since made millions off of their book sales and "trainings."

Did Lee and Compamy ever go back then and repay the debts from his first ministry? Never! In fact, those in debt who complained about it were accused of "losing their virginity" over the matter.

In the Midwest region the commonly held belief was that all Daystar investors were properly reimbursed. A while back an ex-LCer scolded me for thinking differently.

Another WL anomaly: Back during the "New Way" of the mid-80's, LSM developed a "Life Lessons" series of 48 booklets for new believers. The first was "Knowing You are Saved." The Third? "Clearance Of The Old Living" Using the example of Zaccheus, who repayed 4-fold anyone overcharged for taxes, Lee taught that the first thing a new believer should do is make restitution for past debts.

Practice what you preach?
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Last edited by Ohio; 10-31-2018 at 06:39 AM.
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Old 10-31-2018, 06:03 AM   #11
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Default Re: What was Witness Lee thinking about Daystar ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
What troubled me about Daystar was not so much that the "get rich quick" scheme went belly up, but that debt-ridden Stream Publishers quietly transitioned into the lucrative Living Stream Ministry. LSM has since made millions off of their book sales and "trainings."
Daystar was a kludge and a scam. As everything associated with Lee, so are the books and trainings.
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Last edited by awareness; 10-31-2018 at 06:39 AM.
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