1,000 Years of Outer Darkness

[byHismercy]

Hi saints,

Can we open a conversation about LCs teaching on a 1,000 year period of outer darkness for believers? I experienced different saints in the LC warning me at different times of the danger of being left behind at the rapture, and being left in outer darkness for 1,000 years....separated from God, I guess.

Can anybody say concretely what they teach and believe on this point?

After being born again, scripture taught me I was secure in Christ, sealed with the Holy Spirit, and that nothing could separate me from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus. I felt so confident in my position in Christ, in my faith in Christ. My faith in Jesus has never wavered. If anything, I have witnessed Him perfecting it.

I have been seeking what the Lord has to say on this subject this past week or two. I would appreciate some input from someone who has made a study of this topic. Even point me in the right direction in scripture to study.

Does anybody else feel this LC doctrine is completely incorrect? It seems a contradiction of scripture to me, to teach this to regenerated believers. God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all. To spend 1,000 years outside of Gods light would be a temporary hell, as I see it. How could any believer end up there? And isn't this temporary punishment the same as a catholic purgatory?

Is this another tactic used by these LC con artists to instill fear and implement control over the body of Christ?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Hi saints,

Can we open a conversation about LCs teaching on a 1,000 year period of outer darkness for believers? I experienced different saints in the LC warning me at different times of the danger of being left behind at the rapture, and being left in outer darkness for 1,000 years....separated from God, I guess.

Can anybody say concretely what they teach and believe on this point?

After being born again, scripture taught me I was secure in Christ, sealed with the Holy Spirit, and that nothing could separate me from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus. I felt so confident in my position in Christ, in my faith in Christ. My faith in Jesus has never wavered. If anything, I have witnessed Him perfecting it.

I have been seeking what the Lord has to say on this subject this past week or two. I would appreciate some input from someone who has made a study of this topic. Even point me in the right direction in scripture to study.

Does anybody else feel this LC doctrine is completely incorrect? It seems a contradiction of scripture to me, to teach this to regenerated believers. God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all. To spend 1,000 years outside of Gods light would be a temporary hell, as I see it. How could any believer end up there? And isn't this temporary punishment the same as a catholic purgatory?

Is this another tactic used by these LC con artists to instill fear and implement control over the body of Christ?

I don't disagree with the general interpretation that "outer darkness" in the NT does not refer to Hell and it is a destination for genuine believers nor do I disagree with what you have written highlighted in purple.

Once you are saved you are always saved, for eternity. Basically what you have written.

That said the Lord said to "take up your cross and follow Him". You can do that willingly, but one way or another you will go through the cross of Christ. It is the only way to know the fellowship of His sufferings. It is the only way to experience resurrection power and it is the only way to be perfected. In Hebrews we are told to "go outside the camp to Him". This is an experience we must have, if you are too afraid to go outside the camp to the cross in this life, then perhaps 1,000 years is required.

When the Lord returns we all will have to appear before the Lord at the Throne of Christ. Why? If He is going to say "well done, good and faithful slave" to some then surely He is not going to say it to others. Otherwise it becomes meaningless.

Why does Paul tell us to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling"?

[byHismercy]

Thank you for your input, ZNP.

[byHismercy]

What about the word which states to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord? Let's say a believer fails to work out their salvation. Would their 'present with the Lord' also be temporary, then?

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

What about the word which states to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord? Let's say a believer fails to work out their salvation. Would their 'present with the Lord' also be temporary, then?

I have not found any verses anywhere, not even a hint concerning differences in regards to the conditions of dead believers. (Is that what you are referring to?)

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Raptor

I have not found any verses anywhere, not even a hint concerning differences in regards to the conditions of dead believers. (Is that what you are referring to?)

Can you clarify, Raptor? My position is that I don't believe some believers are present with the Lord at the time they leave their bodies whilst some are placed in 1,000 years of outer darkness. I don't see scripture supporting this LC teaching. ZNP agrees with that peculiar doctrine, so I was wondering if he believes some believers only temporarily are with the Lord posthumously, or how he reconciles 'to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord' with that teaching. It seems to contradict with this word.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Does anybody else feel this LC doctrine is completely incorrect?

I personally feel this teaching is very correct. There are too many verses and too many warnings concerning what kind of walk we should have after we are saved and the possible consequences. Once saved, eternally saved, YES!...that was settled on the cross and when we believed. But whether our walk will be well pleasing to the Lord or not is something He will settle at His judgement seat and is a matter of reward and yes....some kind of punishment or discipline .

I actually appreciate this teaching, it is fair, righteous and sobering. Without getting into any verses, just imagine, two people who believe and get saved at the same time. Both are forgiven, born again, genuine believers. One follows the Lord, denies his self, loves Him, serves Him, grows in the knowledge of God and keeps the faith until the end . The other, goes back into the world, lives in sin, forgets about the Lord, and refuses to hear Him . When the Lord comes back, will the Lord consider them the same? Will He grant them the same inheritance?

Even more...consider this: I have had too many experiences that show me that even in my current walk with the Lord, when I have sinned, (and depending on the seriousness of the sin), I lose the presence of the Lord. Sometimes very painfully so, and end up deadened and in some kind of dark condition. Not until I thoroughly confess and even sometimes have to wait for His timing, does He come back with His presence and joy. Imagine living a whole life that displeases Him.

The teaching is solid food when you get into all the details and verses. But on the other hand, we should not give ground to any abnormal fears caused by unbalanced understandings or the devil's accusations. The Father is pleased in giving us the Kingdom, Luke 12:32, "Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father is pleased to give you the kingdom".....and His yoke is easy, the burden light.

Will the punishment be literally 1,000 years? That is what WL taught. I understand that the reward is to rule and reign with Christ for 1,000 years, but we may lose it, and that it is made equivalent to the wedding feast, yet we may miss it . But I have not seen any verses that actually say outer darkness is for 1,000 years, neither where it says that it is not.

This is a big subject.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Can you clarify, Raptor? My position is that I don't believe some believers are present with the Lord at the time they leave their bodies whilst some are placed in 1,000 years of outer darkness. I don't see scripture supporting this LC teaching. ZNP agrees with that peculiar doctrine, so I was wondering if he believes some believers only temporarily are with the Lord posthumously, or how he reconciles 'to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord' with that teaching. It seems to contradict with this word.

22 If I am to go on living in the body, this will mean fruitful labor for me. Yet what shall I choose? I do not know! 23 I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which is better by far; 24 but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the body. 25 Convinced of this, I know that I will remain, and I will continue with all of you for your progress and joy in the faith, 26 so that through my being with you again your boasting in Christ Jesus will abound on account of me.

The dead in Christ rise first, then those of us who remain. So the idea that when we die we are in Christ is consistent that after that we are also raised to stand before the judgement seat of Christ.

Also, even in this section Paul says it is more necessary for him to remain with the believers for their progress and joy in the faith. Why? I would say that is because we all are still "working out our own salvation".

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Can you clarify, Raptor?

The matter of "being absent from the body and present with the Lord" refers to being dead, to dead believers. The Bible says little about what happens to dead believers, except that they go to be in the Lord´s presence, or to Paradise, or that they are sleeping.

The matter of receiving a reward or discipline refers to live believers, either resurrected and/or raptured, that are judged at the judgment seat of Christ. The Bible says a lot about all of this.

[RambleOn]

I have decided that I cannot comment intelligently about whether this or any teaching of the LCs is accurate or Biblical, but I can confirm for you concretely that this is what they teach and believe:

*Those who believe into the Lord are saved once for all. You cannot under any circumstances lose your salvation, because having believed you have received the divine life, and having received the life of God the Father, you are legally entitled to his inheritance.

*Baptism is necessary to have a proper walk with the Lord after being saved.

*There will be a 1000 year wedding feast at the end of the age, which will be for the Lord and the first fruits, the overcomers. The rest of the believers will suffer in outer darkness for 1000 years and will engage in much weeping and teeth gnashing.

*After the wedding feast, the New Heaven and New Earth will be established, along with the New Jerusalem. All the believers across time will reign as kings with Christ. The jews get to be priests.

It has never been quite clear who the rest of the kingdom will comprise, however. I find it odd that there would be a kingdom with apparently billions of kings, and also millions upon millions of priests, but no mention of any citizens of the kingdom. Some clarification on that would be helpful. CS Lewis apparently thought, if you take his Narnia books to be any indication of his eschatology, that Muslims and people of other faiths would be accepted into the kingdom as well, though perhaps not as actual kings. Maybe the Ishmaelites get to partake of Abraham's blessing after all. It is all very confusing to me, but like I said, I have trouble speaking intelligently about most of these controversies.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by RambleOn

I have decided that I cannot comment intelligently about whether this or any teaching of the LCs is accurate or Biblical, but I can confirm for you concretely that this is what they teach and believe: .

*Those who believe into the Lord are saved once for all. You cannot under any circumstances lose your salvation, because having believed you have received the divine life, and having received the life of God the Father YES

you are legally entitled to his inheritance. Not exactly, we are not legally entitled to the part of our inheritance, the Kingdom of God, which is during the millennial Kingdom. That aspect of the inheritance is based on reward. We are legally entitled to our inheritance in the New Jerusalem, like you mention down below. But to inherit the Kingdom of God in the millennial is based on reward. Not trying to split hairs here, but there are verses that exactly say this, i.e. "....those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God." (1 Cor. 6:9, Gal. 5:21).

*There will be a 1000 year wedding feast at the end of the age, which will be for the Lord and the first fruits, the overcomers. YES, but "the first fruits" are just one of the categories of overcomers, there are other categories of overcomers too.

*After the wedding feast, the New Heaven and New Earth will be established, along with the New Jerusalem. All the believers across time will reign as kings with Christ. YES, but all believers will be kings and priests in the New Jerusalem.

The jews get to be priests. , the Jews that believe in the Lord at His coming are priests on the earth during the millennial Kingdom. After the millennial, they join all the other believers, to be priests and kings for eternity.

It has never been quite clear who the rest of the kingdom will comprise, however. I find it odd that there would be a kingdom with apparently billions of kings (queens too? i don't know, NO, never any mention of queens, no), and also millions upon millions of priests, but no mention of any citizens of the kingdom. Yes, it has been made clear in the teaching. During the Great Tribulation, a different gospel is preached, it is called the Eternal Gospel. This gospel is initially preached by an angel that flies around the earth warning people to fear God and worship Him (Rev. 14:6,7). In addition there are also good works that people, nations, can perform during the great tribulation, mainly, helping other christians. The nations that obey that eternal gospel and those that help christians will receive a reward from the Lord. These are the ones that are counted as sheep, separated from the goats at the Lord´s coming (Matt. 25:32). The reward is that they will be the citizens of the kingdom. They do not get regenerated, they do not receive the divine life, but they get restored to be like Adam and Eve before the fall and get to live eternally as the nations during the millenium and during the New Jerusalem.

[RambleOn]

Raptor, thanks for clearing that up for me. I took the queens part out after posting, but you beat me to it. Anyway, the rest of it sounds familiar, but it has been a long while since I read through, and I am clearly losing my grip on the details. I should have just kept it simple, but as usual I got myself in trouble talking too much! Rambling on, if you will.

It's too late now, but what I should have said was "I have decided I cannot comment intelligently, but that has never stopped me before so here goes."

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Raptor

The matter of "being absent from the body and present with the Lord" refers to being dead, to dead believers. The Bible says little about what happens to dead believers, except that they go to be in the Lord´s presence, or to Paradise, or that they are sleeping.

The matter of receiving a reward or discipline refers to live believers, either resurrected and/or raptured, that are judged at the judgment seat of Christ. The Bible says a lot about all of this.

What?! Every believer whether they have died prior to the Lord's return or not will be caught up to the judgment seat of Christ where they will either receive a reward or discipline.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by RambleOn

It has never been quite clear who the rest of the kingdom will comprise, however. I find it odd that there would be a kingdom with apparently billions of kings, and also millions upon millions of priests, but no mention of any citizens of the kingdom. Some clarification on that would be helpful. CS Lewis apparently thought, if you take his Narnia books to be any indication of his eschatology, that Muslims and people of other faiths would be accepted into the kingdom as well, though perhaps not as actual kings. Maybe the Ishmaelites get to partake of Abraham's blessing after all. It is all very confusing to me, but like I said, I have trouble speaking intelligently about most of these controversies.

They teach that the nations which were the "sheep" will be on Earth. So Christians rule and reign with Christ, Jews are priests to God, and the nations walk in the light. The part that isn't clear is how long each of these lives. Obviously Christians are clearly said to rule and reign with Christ for eternity. But how long the Jews and Gentiles live is hard to figure out.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

What?! Every believer whether they have died prior to the Lord's return or not will be caught up to the judgment seat of Christ where they will either receive a reward or discipline.

Yes, exactly. So when they are caught up and are at the judgment seat of Christ, are they alive or dead? They are alive, they have been resurrected. They are no longer sleeping or absent from the body.

byHisMercy had said "My position is that I don't believe some believers are present with the Lord at the time they leave their bodies whilst some are placed in 1,000 years of outer darkness"

What I am saying is that when believers die, and while they are dead, they have not been judged yet at the JSoC. So there cannot be some dead believers present with the Lord and other dead believers in outer darkness for 1,ooo years. At the Lord´s return all dead believers are resurrected and caught up to the JSoC, and all live believers are caught up to the JSoC. All believers at the JSoC will be alive.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

They teach that the nations which were the "sheep" will be on Earth. So Christians rule and reign with Christ, Jews are priests to God, and the nations walk in the light. The part that isn't clear is how long each of these lives. Obviously Christians are clearly said to rule and reign with Christ for eternity. But how long the Jews and Gentiles live is hard to figure out.

They all live eternally. The saved Jews are the earthly priests during the millenium, and after, they join all other christians to be part of the New Jerusalem, all as sons of God. Revelation 21:12 indicates that the 12 tribes are now part of the NJ, "It had a great and high wall and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names inscribed, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the sons of Israel."

The nations live eternally with restored, perfect, sinless bodies. There is no more death! Revelation 21:4, "And He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death will be no more, nor will there be sorrow or crying or pain anymore; for the former things have passed away."

And the leaves of the tree of life heal the nations, Revelation 22:2 "And on this side and on that side of the river was the tree of life, producing twelve fruits, yielding its fruit each month; and the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations."

At the end of the millenium, everything changes. There is a new heaven and a new earth and we enter into eternity as the New Jerusalem comprising all of God´s perfected people and around it the restored nations.

[byHismercy]

Ok, this is all very interesting. Thank you all for contributing to this conversation. What it brings up for me is another point, related to this subject, wherein I disagree with LC doctrine. In the LC, believers were divided into at least two categories, overcomes and those who have not overcome. This is another doctrine which directly contradicts scripture, though.

1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith. Vs. 5 Who is he that overcomes the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

This verse tells me that I and every born again believer of Christ is an overcomer. The LC was wrong to divide the true body of Christ into overcomers and non-overcomers. It is so very plain in scripture. How could they get this small detail so wrong? It definitely makes the rest of their theology suspect, at the least.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Raptor

They all live eternally.

I agree.

It is now my belief that ALL those once conceived, whether aborted or not, whether stillborn or they died before they ever sinned, whether believing or not, whether Jews or not, whether Christian or not, whether alive or dead, will live eternally.

That does not mean they will all have God's eternal life, or that some will not perish in fire. We may have vastly different destinies in eternity, but who we are will never cease to exist.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Ok, this is all very interesting. Thank you all for contributing to this conversation. What it brings up for me is another point, related to this subject, wherein I disagree with LC doctrine. In the LC, believers were divided into at least two categories, overcomes and those who have not overcome. This is another doctrine which directly contradicts scripture, though.

1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith. Vs. 5 Who is he that overcomes the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

This verse tells me that I and every born again believer of Christ is an overcomer. The LC was wrong to divide the true body of Christ into overcomers and non-overcomers. It is so very plain in scripture. How could they get this small detail so wrong? It definitely makes the rest of their theology suspect, at the least.

Well, the scriptures plainly talk about overcomers in Revelation 2 and 3. Several times, "to him who overcomes". That means there are those who may "not overcome". So it's really the scriptures that describe two categories. The same thought is present in many other portions without the specific use of the word "overcomer".

But to your point: YES! there is the overcoming of the world, our faith, our believing in the Son of God! Yes, that is a victory, but it is just the initial one, and not the only one. The use of the word "overcomes" here does not negate the use of "overcome" in other contexts, and concerning other requirements. It's one thing to overcome unbelief and the world and believe in the Son of God, but another to overcome lukewarmness, Jezebel, Nicolaitans, lost of first love, deadness, etc, etc.

Yes, biology and family teaches us this also. We were all sperm one day, and we all overcame the race against all other sperm and reached the egg successfully, ....., we overcame the world of sperm and got their first, we believed and we were born!

But now we have to grow, and mature, and run the human race, and keep all of dad´s requirements to the end, and overcome all the other obstacles, then we might receive the reward of dad´s inheritance.

The first overcome does not negate the second.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Ok, this is all very interesting. Thank you all for contributing to this conversation. What it brings up for me is another point, related to this subject, wherein I disagree with LC doctrine. In the LC, believers were divided into at least two categories, overcomes and those who have not overcome. This is another doctrine which directly contradicts scripture, though.

1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcomes the world: and this is the victory that overcomes the world, even our faith. Vs. 5 Who is he that overcomes the world, but he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God?

This verse tells me that I and every born again believer of Christ is an overcomer. The LC was wrong to divide the true body of Christ into overcomers and non-overcomers. It is so very plain in scripture. How could they get this small detail so wrong? It definitely makes the rest of their theology suspect, at the least.

byHisMercy, I have met some folks over the years who testified of being genuinely "born again" as a young person. Later in life they completely forsook their faith, denying even the very existence of God and the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

One example, though I don't know him personally, is Dr. Bart Ehrman, an accomplished Bible professor, and a self-described atheist. Did he not once have faith? He also used to preach the gospel. Did he not reject both his faith and His Savior? He is no longer a believer, neither is he an "overcomer."

So this is an example of one who once was a believer but who can not be an overcomer. The Galatians are others. They too were "bewitched." (Gal 3.1)

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Yes, biology and family teaches us this also. We were all sperm one day, and we all overcame the race against all other sperm and reached the egg successfully, ....., we overcame the world of sperm and got their first, we believed and we were born!

Wow. This exposition may be the first ever of its kind!

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Well, the scriptures plainly talk about overcomers in Revelation 2 and 3. Several times, "to him who overcomes". That means there are those who may "not overcome".

There are two types of sincere believer's in Christ; Apollos and Paul.

Paul knew the baptism of the Holy Spirit, Apollos only knew of John's baptism (Acts 18:25)

Jesus is calling those whom have not received the promise of the Holy Spirit in faith to overcome by faith. It's a daily battle for every believer in Christ.

God's children already born of His spirit cannot fall away as there is nothing that will snatch us out of His hand (Jn 10:28).

So yes, some can loose faith and fall away (2 Thess 2:3) into outer darkness and then there are those already sealed with the deposit of the spirit that guarantees eternal life. (Eph 1:13)

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Ohio

byHisMercy, I have met some folks over the years who testified of being genuinely "born again" as a young person. Later in life they completely forsook their faith, denying even the very existence of God and the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.)

There are too many warnings.....

Lk. 9:26 For whoever is ashamed of Me and of My words, of this one will the Son of Man be ashamed when He comes in His glory and the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

byHisMercy, I have met some folks over the years who testified of being genuinely "born again" as a young person. Later in life they completely forsook their faith, denying even the very existence of God and the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

One example, though I don't know him personally, is Dr. Bart Ehrman, an accomplished Bible professor, and a self-described atheist. Did he not once have faith? He also used to preach the gospel. Did he not reject both his faith and His Savior? He is no longer a believer, neither is he an "overcomer."

So this is an example of one who once was a believer but who can not be an overcomer. The Galatians are others. They too were "bewitched." (Gal 3.1)

Ohio, it seems impossible to have met Christ, know His life, then later deny Him. But I agree that it must be possible. We all have free will, and our own choice to make. But if Ehrman does now deny Christ, he would be going to hell, not 1,000 years of outer darkness, I would think.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

it seems impossible to have met Christ, know His life, then later deny Him.

If you only knew of him, it's not impossible but if you truly know him it is impossible to be plucked from his hand.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Jo S

If you only knew of him, it's not impossible but if you truly know him it is impossible to be plucked from his hand.

John 10:28 "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand". No one can pluck them out of His hand so as to perish. They will never perish, once saved, eternally saved, no plucking.

But a saved person can receive a reward or suffer loss: 1 Cor. 3:12-15 "Now if anyone builds upon the foundation using gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will become manifest, for the day will disclose it, because it is revealed in fire, and the fire itself will prove the work of each, what sort it is. If the work of anyone that he built up will remain, he will receive a reward. If the work of anyone will be burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, but so as through fire."

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Raptor

John 10:28 "I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand". No one can pluck them out of His hand so as to perish. They will never perish, once saved, eternally saved, no plucking.

Then how do you explain that the nations, to whom He has not given eternal life, live eternally? see post 16 for you and 18 for Ohio.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Then how do you explain that the nations, to whom He has not given eternal life, live eternally? see post 16 for you and 18 for Ohio.

Eternal life and live eternally are not synonyms. Eternal life is the life of God. Live eternally is to live forever.

Ohio made a good point. All human beings will exist forever. Some will have the life of God, the eternal life, the sons of God in the NJ. Some will only have the restored human life, and live forever as the nations around the NJ, and some will exist eternally in the lake of fire, the unbelievers.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Jo S

If you only knew of him, it's not impossible but if you truly know him it is impossible to be plucked from his hand.

Jo, the kind of person you speak of I never thought of as a believer. I would have classified that one as a nominal Christian, or a tare. I have a loved one, a close relative, who claims to be a Christian, but when we discuss receiving the Holy Spirit, she claims Lutherans don't believe in that. We sometimes go round and round this aspect and whatever verses she disputes she cannot or will not even read aloud. Finally in exasperation one year she said it is her choice. That I felt was the first time she had been honest on the subject. You cannot reject receiving the Holy Spirit, reject the scriptural being born again, and be a saved, regenerated Christian. You can, however, deceive yourself into thinking you are a Christian.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Well, the scriptures plainly talk about overcomers in Revelation 2 and 3. Several times, "to him who overcomes". That means there are those who may "not overcome". So it's really the scriptures that describe two categories. The same thought is present in many other portions without the specific use of the word "overcomer".

But to your point: YES! there is the overcoming of the world, our faith, our believing in the Son of God! Yes, that is a victory, but it is just the initial one, and not the only one. The use of the word "overcomes" here does not negate the use of "overcome" in other contexts, and concerning other requirements. It's one thing to overcome unbelief and the world and believe in the Son of God, but another to overcome lukewarmness, Jezebel, Nicolaitans, lost of first love, deadness, etc, etc.

Yes, biology and family teaches us this also. We were all sperm one day, and we all overcame the race against all other sperm and reached the egg successfully, ....., we overcame the world of sperm and got their first, we believed and we were born!

But now we have to grow, and mature, and run the human race, and keep all of dad´s requirements to the end, and overcome all the other obstacles, then we might receive the reward of dad´s inheritance.

The first overcome does not negate the second.

I will have to reread Rev. 3 and 3, Raptor. The one thing I am glad of is that Almighty God knows. I am glad He searches the hearts of men, and He knows the tares from His harvest of saints.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

You can, however, deceive yourself into thinking you are a Christian.

Absolutely. However it's easy to deceive yourself when, for instance, the Catholics give you a certificate at 1 yrs old stating you are saved at water baptism or in the Local Churches you are told to disregard teachings on the baptism of the Holy Spirit and just to "call on the Lord". But ultimately accountability falls on you.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Ohio, it seems impossible to have met Christ, know His life, then later deny Him. But I agree that it must be possible. We all have free will, and our own choice to make. But if Ehrman does now deny Christ, he would be going to hell, not 1,000 years of outer darkness, I would think.

Ehrman has stumbled many who have sought God, reminding me of Matt 23.13.

But it brings up another question I struggle with -- are we saved by an active faith or by past regeneration? Which indicates we can lose our salvation.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Eternal life and live eternally are not synonyms. Eternal life is the life of God. Live eternally is to live forever.

Ohio made a good point. All human beings will exist forever. Some will have the life of God, the eternal life, the sons of God in the NJ. Some will only have the restored human life, and live forever as the nations around the NJ, and some will exist eternally in the lake of fire, the unbelievers.

But does it say they'll live forever or for eternity? What happens when "time is no more"?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Ehrman has stumbled many who have sought God, reminding me of Matt 23.13.

But it brings up another question I struggle with -- are we saved by an active faith or by past regeneration? Which indicates we can lose our salvation.

How could you have an active faith if you didn't have a past regeneration? Receiving Christ for the first time is the first step. That is something you cannot lose regardless of what happens next. In that sense "once saved always saved". But if one small act of faith saves you, then so does every subsequent act of faith.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

How could you have an active faith if you didn't have a past regeneration? Receiving Christ for the first time is the first step. That is something you cannot lose regardless of what happens next. In that sense "once saved always saved". But if one small act of faith saves you, then so does every subsequent act of faith.

This depends on what you mean by "receiving Christ".

Do you mean receiving the word in joy?

Or do you mean receiving him as in being baptized by the Holy Spirit?

The former you can lose (Matthew 13:18-22), the latter you cannot.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Jo S

There are two types of sincere believer's in Christ; Apollos and Paul.

Paul knew the baptism of the Holy Spirit, Apollos only knew of John's baptism (Acts 18:25)

Jesus is calling those whom have not received the promise of the Holy Spirit in faith to overcome by faith. It's a daily battle for every believer in Christ.

God's children already born of His spirit cannot fall away as there is nothing that will snatch us out of His hand (Jn 10:28).

So yes, some can loose faith and fall away (2 Thess 2:3) into outer darkness and then there are those already sealed with the deposit of the spirit that guarantees eternal life. (Eph 1:13)

Jo, I was just looking at 2 Thes. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

It seems like the 'that day' referred to here is the day the Lord comes back, from above in verse 1.

The 'falling away' seems to me to be referring to a type of veil or curtain....not referring to believers nor their faith, as the 'falling away' reveals the son of perdition. Then verse 4 talks about who this son of perdition is. It is the devil, yeah?

Vs 4. Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called god, or that is worshipped; so that he as god sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is god.

Isn't that one a false god, one who wishes he was God, but is not. That is Satan, isn't it? Paul goes on to speak further on this revealing, in 2 vs 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming.

Paul is not discussing a falling away of believers in this letter. He is lauding the Thesselonians for their faith was growing exceedingly, their love was abounding all to each other, their patience and faith was enduring through all their persecutions and tribulations. 1:1-4

Maybe 'that day' in 2:3 was the day of the Lord recompensing tribulation to them that troubled the Thessalonian believers in 1:6

I just don't see any reference to believers falling from faith here. He is encouraging the Thessalonians in their ways, their love, their endurance. Later in the letter he teaches them how to behave toward those brothers who would not work or support themselves. They were disorderly, Paul called them busybodies.

By the way, thank you for verse references for me to look into. It only encourages me to get into the word and I am thankful for open discussion. It is such a far cry from 'fellowship' LC style. I will take Pauls' blessing to the Thess. saints for us today....And the Lord direct OUR hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Jo, I was just looking at 2 Thes. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.

PAUL IS WARNING THEM NOT TO BE ALARMED BY RUMORS THAT THE DAY OF THE 2 COMING OF CHRIST HAS STARTED. THAT FIRST THE COMING AWAY, OR APOSTASY OR REBELLION WILL COME FIRST AS A SIGN. THAT IS THE APPEARING OF ANTICHRIST.

It seems like the 'that day' referred to here is the day the Lord comes back, from above in verse 1. YES.

The 'falling away' seems to me to be referring to a type of veil or curtain....not referring to believers nor their faith, as the 'falling away' : IT IS REBELLION, APOSTASY, DEPARTURE FROM TRUTH

Then verse 4 talks about who this son of perdition is. It is the devil, yeah? NOT EXACTLY IT IS ANTICHRIST

Vs 4. Who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called god, or that is worshipped; so that he as god sits in the temple of God, showing himself that he is GOD. Isn't that one a false god, one who wishes he was God, but is not. That is Satan, isn't it? IT'S ANTICHRIST

Paul goes on to speak further on this revealing, in 2 vs 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming. THE LORD DESTROYS ANTICHRIST.

Paul is not discussing a falling away of believers in this letter. NO HE IS NOT

He is lauding the Thesselonians for their faith was growing exceedingly, their.... YES

I just don't see any reference to believers falling from faith here. YES, CORRECT.

He is encouraging the Thessalonians in their ways, their love, their endurance. YES.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

You can, however, deceive yourself into thinking you are a Christian.

I guess my question is -- can you deceive yourself into believing you are Not a Christian?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

How could you have an active faith if you didn't have a past regeneration? Receiving Christ for the first time is the first step. That is something you cannot lose regardless of what happens next. In that sense "once saved always saved". But if one small act of faith saves you, then so does every subsequent act of faith.

Perhaps I misstated my question -- what happens when someone (like Ehrman) has a past regeneration, to the point where they are actively preaching the Gospel to others, and decides to study theology at a major university, and yet have your active faith stolen from you via so-called scholarly doubts concerning the text of the N.T.?

It's a question which supports the Arminian school of thought.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jo S

This depends on what you mean by "receiving Christ".

Do you mean receiving the word in joy?

Or do you mean receiving him as in being baptized by the Holy Spirit?

The former you can lose (Matthew 13:18-22), the latter you cannot.

Who gets to determine who is baptized in the Holy Spirit?

At Pentecost ALL the disciples were.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Perhaps I misstated my question -- what happens when someone (like Ehrman) has a past regeneration, to the point where they are actively preaching the Gospel to others, and decides to study theology at a major university, and yet have your active faith stolen from you via so-called scholarly doubts concerning the text of the N.T.?

He is like a baby, who is born of Mr. Johnson. He is Mr. Johnson's baby, that's a fact, and that will never cease to be a fact, he is Johnson's son, it´s biological, it´s genetics, it's a law of life. The baby grows into a child and loves his dad, and says great things and proclaims good news about his dad to others at school.

Yet the child is still very young and is kidnapped by these scholarly gangsters, and grows up with them at a major university full of ideas and is so busy and deceived that he forgets about his dad and all dad´s great things.

Now he is a young boy and then a teenager, and one day he runs into a childhood friend that asks him, ...hey what happened to your great dad? And he answers, who? I don´t know what you are talking about. And then now he is an adult and one day runs into his dad on the street and though Johnson sees him and lunges to greet him, sobbing, full of love and expectation....his son does not recognize him and passes by to the other side.

Then one day Johnson dies. In his will he recognizes he has a son, but does not leave him an inheritance, because he never knew him.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Jo, I was just looking at 2 Thes. 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;......

I admit, I've never heard this interpretation before. I'm curious, is this what the LC teach regarding the falling away?...

So the approach to exegetical biblical interpretation is the premise that scripture interprets scripture. Chances are certain narratives are repeated multiple times throughout the bible so they can be compared and a proper and consistent understanding can be derived from that.

So in terms of 2 Thessalonians 2, what I do first is look for the term in the original language and then look for other verses concerning an end times "falling away". Then I compare them to find it's meaning.

The Greek for "falling away" is "apostasia"

What I come up with is Matthew 24:10 where Jesus talks about the signs of his 2nd coming and a falling away.

"Apostasia" is the term found both in Matthew and Thessalonica.

The definition of apostasy is; a renunciation of the truth.

So the thought here is that one can't renounce something that they never knew was true in the first place. It implies that this is speaking of those that knew about the truth (Jesus Christ) yet ended up abandoning him in the end.

Another verse to support this thought is 1 Timothy 1:19...

On the other hand you have eisegetical biblical interpretation and it is a subjective interpretation where one's own worldview is imposed over the text. It ends up usually adding something to the text that is not there or taking away.

In the case of the interpretation you presented, the object of a "veil" is being added to the text. A veil isn't something that's explicitly mentioned in the verse but is added through presupposition that this verse is an analogy rather than a literal statement.

I can see how it's easy to do that because the terminology used there, "falling away" and "reveal", can easily paint such a picture. But the error comes from not looking at the original language to see the context of the word that was translated.

Now even with exegesis, you can go in circles all day but it's the safer method when interpreting scripture.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I guess my question is -- can you deceive yourself into believing you are Not a Christian?

I don't see how. We who believe have the Holy Spirit witnessing Christ in our spirit. How can you 'unknow' someone you know? (This doesn't apply to LCers. They were perfectly able,to 'unknow' me after 10 or so years of 'friendship', lol).

I would argue that someone who lost their faith never actually received the Holy Spirit in the first place. What do you think, Ohio?

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Who gets to determine who is baptized in the Holy Spirit?

At Pentecost ALL the disciples were.

In the case of Pentecost, it was Jesus that determined it ahead of time (Luke 24:49, Acts 1:4)

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Jo S

I admit, I've never heard this interpretation before. I'm curious, is this what the LC teach regarding the falling away?...

So the approach to exegetical biblical interpretation is the premise that scripture interprets scripture. Chances are certain narratives are repeated multiple times throughout the bible so they can be compared and a proper and consistent understanding can be derived from that.

So in terms of 2 Thessalonians 2, what I do first is look for the term in the original language and then look for other verses concerning an end times "falling away". Then I compare them to find it's meaning.

The Greek for "falling away" is "apostasia"

What I come up with is Matthew 24:10 where Jesus talks about the signs of his 2nd coming and a falling away.

"Apostasia" is the term found both in Matthew and Thessalonica.

The definition of apostasy is; a renunciation of the truth.

So the thought here is that one can't renounce something that they never knew was true in the first place. It implies that this is speaking of those that knew about the truth (Jesus Christ) yet ended up abandoning him in the end.

Another verse to support this thought is 1 Timothy 1:19...

On the other hand you have eisegetical biblical interpretation and it is a subjective interpretation where one's own worldview is imposed over the text. It ends up usually adding something to the text that is not there or taking away.

In the case of the interpretation you presented, the object of a "veil" is being added to the text. A veil isn't something that's explicitly mentioned in the verse but is added through presupposition that this verse is an analogy rather than a literal statement.

I can see how it's easy to do that because the terminology used there, "falling away" and "reveal", can easily paint such a picture. But the error comes from not looking at the original language to see the context of the English word used by the translators.

Now even with exegesis, you can go in circles all day but it's the safer method when interpreting scripture.

Ok, so, to explain my situation, I would say I am just now learning how to read Gods'word. I am not assuming analogy was used here, but just trying to read the verse in context of the rest of the letter. I read the epistle to the Thessalonians several time this morning trying to see the subject of the letter and the whole picture of what Paul is trying to convey. I don't think myself above making MANY mistakes interpreting scripture. And I would love to study the word using the original authors intent through knowing original language and their definitions. How do I do this? Even the concept of having presuppositions which we bring with us, and misapply to the word is new to me. I know we are susceptible to doing it, but I don't think I am here. I was just trying to interpret the letter as a whole. And yes, I agree, the text does not explicitly say veil.

I didn't have any 'religious' education to get presuppositions from, really. I would call my primary family uninvolved with God. Then I received Christ a very young adult, then immediately into the LC. I cannot even stomach TV ministers, so I have no belief 'system' that I 'come from', if that makes any sense. And I choose now to reject EVERYTHING LC. If I can identify it!

So I now wonder this, apostasia is to renounce the truth.....if the antichrist knew the truth of Christ, but is working against Gods will in the world, for all men to come to the saving knowledge of Christ, couldn't the apostasy in Thess. be referring to the antichrists' own apostasy?

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

So I now wonder this, apostasia is to renounce the truth.....if the antichrist knew the truth of Christ, but is working against Gods will in the world, for all men to come to the saving knowledge of Christ, couldn't the apostasy in Thess. be referring to the antichrists' own apostasy?

I see. Well, my short answer would be this; In 2 Thess 2:3 the apostasy is alluding to a future event that has not yet come and since Satan has long apostatized, or rejected the truth, it's couldn't be referring to him.

If you go on further to verses 2 Thess 2:10-12, it's referring not to a single person but plural "they" referring to a group of people.

Originally Posted by byHismercy

And I choose now to reject EVERYTHING LC. If I can identify it!

Very good!

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

But does it say they'll live forever or for eternity? What happens when "time is no more"?

Here are some verses that indicate the destiny of the different kinds of people and at different stages. Please read, ´twas lots of work....(I have no idea what it will be like when time is no more. Supposedly, at the end of the millenium, time will cease, there will be a new heaven, new earth and we will be the New Jerusalem in eternity.)

Overcomers in Millenium Kingdom. Rev. 20:4
And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and of those who had not worshipped the beast nor his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Nations at 2nd coming: righteous and cursed. Portions from Matt. 25:32-46.
And all the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them from one another, .... Then the King will say to those on His right hand, Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. Then He will say also to those on the left, Go away from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. And these shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Beast and False Prophet. Rev. 19:20
And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet, ... These two were cast alive into the lake of fire, which burns with brimstone.

Devil. Revelation 20:10,
And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where also the beast and the false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Dead unbelievers resurrected. Rev. 20:5
The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were completed.

Unbelievers judged. Rev. 21:8
But the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and fornicators and sorcerers and idolaters and all the false, their part will be in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

Redeemed in the New Jerusalem. Rev. 22:5
And night will be no more; and they have no need of the light of a lamp and of the light of the sun, for the Lord God will shine upon them; and they will reign forever and ever.

Nations in New Jerusalem Rev. 21:24, 26
And the nations will walk by its light; and the kings of the earth bring their glory into it. And they will bring the glory and the honor of the nations into it.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Nations at 2nd coming: righteous and cursed. Portions from Matt. 25:32-46.
And all the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them from one another, .... Then the King will say to those on His right hand, Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. Then He will say also to those on the left, Go away from Me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. And these shall go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Beast and False Prophet. Rev. 19:20
And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet, ... These two were cast alive into the lake of fire, which burns with brimstone.

Devil. Revelation 20:10,
And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where also the beast and the false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

So two issues. The eternal life that believers receive and the eternal life that the righteous sheep of the nations enter into. Is it the same?

Second, is the false prophet a man? If so why is he in the lake of fire before the Great White Throne judgement?

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

So two issues.

The eternal life that believers receive and the eternal life that the righteous sheep of the nations enter into. Is it the same?

Yes, in greek, both are the same word, yes. Eternal life enters into the believers, they are born of this life and they get the life, they have it. The nations enter into it (don´t know what that is like...)

Second, is the false prophet a man? If so why is he in the lake of fire before the Great White Throne judgement?

Yes, the False Prophet is a man and Antichrist is also a man. They are alive when the Lord comes back and seem to have accumulated enough points that they get to inaugurate the lake of fire and go directly into it. Also, looks like the cursed nations follow them soon after.

The Great White Throne judgement is for dead unbelievers.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Second, is the false prophet a man? If so why is he in the lake of fire before the Great White Throne judgement?

Yes, the False Prophet is a man and Antichrist is also a man. They are alive when the Lord comes back and seem to have accumulated enough points that they get to inaugurate the lake of fire and go directly into it. Also, looks like the cursed nations follow them soon after.

The Great White Throne judgement is for dead unbelievers.

Sorry, not buying it. Being sentenced to the lake of fire is a very serious judgement. The foundation of the throne is righteousness. The Lord's kingdom is established on righteousness. Hence, there needs to be a trial and judgement.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Jo S

I see. Well, my short answer would be this; In 2 Thess 2:3 the apostasy is alluding to a future event that has not yet come and since Satan has long apostatized, or rejected the truth, it's couldn't be referring to him.

If you go on further to verses 2 Thess 2:10-12, it's referring not to a single person but plural "they" referring to a group of people.



Very good!

Jo, I see the plural group you referenced. I read them as unbelievers because of the way Paul described them. They are 'them that perish', they received not the love of the truth, God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie, they all might be damned who believe not the truth, they had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Then immediately following this description of 'them', Paul contrasts with his thankfulness for the saints who are brethren beloved of the Lord, chosen of God to salvation, through sanctification of the spirit and belief of the truth.

But I think I see what you are saying, that the plural them, the damned group, you see as once knowing the truth and having fallen away because of the translation of apostasia? That they must be fallen believers? Am I understanding your position correctly?

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Sorry, not buying it. Being sentenced to the lake of fire is a very serious judgement. The foundation of the throne is righteousness. The Lord's kingdom is established on righteousness. Hence, there needs to be a trial and judgement.

You gotta be kidding....ur joking?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Raptor

You gotta be kidding....ur joking?

No. I'm not. If an unrighteous judge would not give the death penalty to a serial killer without first having a trial and judgement then certainly the righteous Lord wouldn't either.

The only explanation I can see is that the false prophet was so deceived he felt he was a Christian and insisted on being judged at the judgement seat of Christ. That is where he was sent to the Lake of fire and why he was there prior to the Great White Throne.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

I don't see how. We who believe have the Holy Spirit witnessing Christ in our spirit. How can you 'unknow' someone you know? (This doesn't apply to LCers. They were perfectly able,to 'unknow' me after 10 or so years of 'friendship', lol).

I would argue that someone who lost their faith never actually received the Holy Spirit in the first place. What do you think, Ohio?

I think it has happened to many. I have met a couple. I mentioned that famous Bible "scholar."

The Bible says to "hold faith and a good conscience, which some thrusting away have become shipwrecked regarding their faith." (I Tim 1.19) Then Paul mentions two brothers by name, whom he delivered to Satan, that they might learn not to blaspheme.

Even in the 1st century, some real brothers had lost their faith. They became blasphemers. (I Tim 1.20) Like the fornicator in I Cor 5.5, Paul delivered these ones to Satan.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Eternal life and live eternally are not synonyms. Eternal life is the life of God. Live eternally is to live forever.

Ohio made a good point. All human beings will exist forever. Some will have the life of God, the eternal life, the sons of God in the NJ. Some will only have the restored human life, and live forever as the nations around the NJ, and some will exist eternally in the lake of fire, the unbelievers.

These teachings are not Brethren, but from Robert Govett and David Panton, Surrey Chapel, Norwich, England. Margaret Barber was a member of this church and taught Nee these views of Eschatology.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I think it has happened to many. I have met a couple. I mentioned that famous Bible "scholar."

The Bible says to "hold faith and a good conscience, which some thrusting away have become shipwrecked regarding their faith." (I Tim 1.19) Then Paul mentions two brothers by name, whom he delivered to Satan, that they might learn not to blaspheme.

Even in the 1st century, some real brothers had lost their faith. They became blasphemers. (I Tim 1.20) Like the fornicator in I Cor 5.5, Paul delivered these ones to Satan.

I'm glad I asked this question. Eye opening. I will study 1 Tim tonight.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

But I think I see what you are saying, that the plural them, the damned group, you see as once knowing the truth and having fallen away because of the translation of apostasia? That they must be fallen believers? Am I understanding your position correctly?

Yes, you're correct. And I mean believers in the sense of having knowledge of the truth but are unregenerate. When the restrainer (the Holy Spirit) is removed these believers will eventually fall away from the true gospel and into deceitful doctrines taught by demons.(1 Tim 4:1).

An example of this would be what Paul alludes to here in 2 Thess 2:9-10;

"The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, 10 and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing."

Christ first talked about this in Matthew 7:22;

"Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?"

So here is an example that shows that in the end-times there will be professing Christians who prophesy and even preform miracles in Jesus's name yet are cast away from his presence not ever actually having known the truth.

It's scary to think that in the last days there will be individuals outwardly professing Christ and preforming miracles yet they won't be empowered by the Holy Spirit but by Satan.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

I'm glad I asked this question. Eye opening. I will study 1 Tim tonight.

Include Revelation 3:5

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Sorry, not buying it. Being sentenced to the lake of fire is a very serious judgement. The foundation of the throne is righteousness. The Lord's kingdom is established on righteousness. Hence, there needs to be a trial and judgement.

You gotta be kidding....ur joking?

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

No. I'm not. If an unrighteous judge would not give the death penalty to a serial killer without first having a trial and judgement then certainly the righteous Lord wouldn't either.

You have to read the word. No, no lawyer or bail for the False Prophet. This is straight out of the word of God, this is God's righteous judgement. These men are one with Satan, demon possessed, gathering armies to fight directly against Israel and Christ, and they have been slaughtering what was left of God´s people on earth during the tribulation. It's World War III. When Christ comes back, He is not coming like the Lamb of God in the gospels, The age has changed, He is coming to execute God's wrath, it's Judgment Day, the END OF THE WORLD game over man!

Chris in His 2nd coming, ready to make war. Revelation 19:11-15
...I saw...a white horse, and He who sits on it called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war And His eyes are a flame of fire, ..and He is clothed with a garment dipped in blood[; And out of His mouth proceeds a sharp sword, that with it He might smite the nations; He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty.

False Prophet (so he needs his rights read, a phone call, an attorney, a sandwich, bail, and a trial????: CERTAINLY NOT) Revelation 13:11-17.
And I saw another beast coming up out of the earth, and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spoke like a dragon. And he exercises all the authority of the first beast in his sight, and he causes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose death stroke was healed. And he does great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth before men. And he deceives those who dwell on the earth on account of the signs which he was given power to do before the beast, commanding those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast, who had the stroke of the sword and revived. And power was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast that the image of the beast might even speak and cause whoever would not worship the image of the beast to be killed. And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the freemen and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead, and that no one may be able to buy or sell except him who has the mark, that is, the name of the beast or the number of his name.

Demons come out of them. Revelation 16:13,14 And I saw, out of the mouth of the dragon and out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet, three unclean spirits as frogs. For they are spirits of demons doing signs, which go forth to the kings of the whole inhabited earth to gather them to the war of the great day of God the Almighty.

Righteous judgment. Revelation 19:19,20 And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war with Him who sits on the horse and with His army. And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet, who in his presence had done the signs by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshipped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire, which burns with brimstone.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Sorry, not buying it. Being sentenced to the lake of fire is a very serious judgement. The foundation of the throne is righteousness. The Lord's kingdom is established on righteousness. Hence, there needs to be a trial and judgement.

There will be a trial and proper justice. The evidence will come when "the books are opened." Revelation 20.12

Will not these "books" include video cameras from the heavens?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

But I think I see what you are saying, that the plural them, the damned group, you see as once knowing the truth and having fallen away because of the translation of apostasia? That they must be fallen believers? Am I understanding your position correctly?

Would not evolution be part of an apostasia? At the heart of evolution is the denial of God. If nature teaches us of God (Romans 1.18-23), then all those who believe evolution, denying the existence of God, are part of the "falling away."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Yes, you're correct. And I mean believers in the sense of having knowledge of the truth but are unregenerate. When the restrainer (the Holy Spirit) is removed these believers will eventually fall away from the true gospel and into deceitful doctrines taught by demons.(1 Tim 4:1).

You seem to think that this "falling away" will only occur in the future, at some definite point.

I agree some of this will occur. The coming "mark of the beast" will be a definite turning point for the people of God. It will be a test many will fail.

But the verse above mentions "doctrines of demons." One example given is "forbidding to marry." (I Tim 4.3) Rome has long forbidden their priests to marry, with much corruption resulting (e.g. pedophilia). Has not this part of the "falling away" been going on for centuries?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

No. I'm not. If an unrighteous judge would not give the death penalty to a serial killer without first having a trial and judgement then certainly the righteous Lord wouldn't either.

ZNP, God is the judge, angels are the jury, and the evidence is from the heavenly cameras.

This justice will be swift, unlike our courts.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

There will be a trial and proper justice. The evidence will come when "the books are opened." Revelation 20.12

Will not these "books" include video cameras from the heavens?

10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The Judgment of the Dead
11 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. The earth and the heavens fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books

The beast and the false prophet had already been thrown into the lake of fire prior to those books being opened, prior to the Great White Throne judgement. Therefore any reasonable and logical reading of the Bible would conclude that their judgement had preceded the Great White Throne judgement. The only judgement I am aware of that precedes this is the Throne of Christ at the end of the age of grace. That judgement is for Christians who have no possibility of being thrown into the lake of fire. However, it seems somehow the false prophet was judged at that time.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

ZNP, God is the judge, angels are the jury, and the evidence is from the heavenly cameras.

This justice will be swift, unlike our courts.

That is not my question. My question is when was this swift judgement made.

19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. 20 But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

There is a legal process -- charged with a crime (crime here is clearly rebellion), you are tried, you are convicted, you are sentenced, and then that sentence is carried out.

The charge is that they had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast. The sentence was to be cast into the lake of fire and we see the here. The question is when was the trial in which he was convicted?

If the throne of Christ is where the Lord judges who is an overcomer, who is a firstfruit, and who still needs 1,000 years it makes sense that there would be a lot of testimony about this one who had deluded them. If he deluded them by portraying himself as a prophet of God (hence the term false prophet) it also makes sense that the Lord would judge him accordingly (with what judgement you judge you shall be judged). You don't have to be present at the trial to be judged, you can be judged in absentia. So the battle of Armageddon is carried out with the judgement already hanging over the head of the false prophet.

This makes a very big difference. I have claimed that WL is a false prophet (please note small letter a, not capital The). Others have found that hard to believe since he preached Christ. Well look at the evidence, the false prophet who deludes the whole world is judged at the throne of Christ with the believers. I guess he is one of the ones referred to in Revelation 3 that got their names blotted out of the book of life.

5 He that overcometh shall thus be arrayed in white garments; and I will in no wise blot his name out of the book of life,

Isn't blotting the name out of the book of life a judgement? When would the Lord do that? At the Lord's judgement seat it is about the hidden motives, not so much the actions.

He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart.

It is the motives of the heart that determine if one is a false prophet.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

That is not my question. My question is when was this swift judgement carried out.

Could be just prior to their "arrest."

You seem to be hung up on unrecorded details. There will also be no unending-government-paid-for-appeals for these characters.

Glory be to God, the righteous Judge!

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Ohio

There will be a trial and proper justice. The evidence will come when "the books are opened." Revelation 20.12

Will not these "books" include video cameras from the heavens?

Nope, no books are opened for the Antichrist and False Prophet. They earned their ticket straight to the lake of fire, they do not even pass through death, they are cast alive into the lake of fire, 19:20. That will be proper justice for them and the Bible says so. "He who sits on it called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war", Rev. 19:11-15. No the False Prophet is not judged at the judgment seat of Christ. The word clearly says they are seized and cast into the lake of fire. Christ is here in a war, many others are also killed directly and in the winepress of the fury of God.

If you read the entire portion 20:10-15 you will see that it is the dead unbelievers in Hades and the dead in the sea (probably demons) that come out and are judged at the great white throne. They are judged by "the books" and then cast into the lake of fire, where the beast and the false prophet were already. v. 10.

[Ohio]

Can we come back to topic?

I doubt if byHismercy was captivated by the details of the Beast's judgment when she started this thread.

ZNP you took us down some future Rabbit Hole.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Can we come back to topic?

I doubt if byHismercy was captivated by the details of the Beast's judgment when she started this thread.

ZNP you took us down some future Rabbit Hole.

Perhaps you should reread byHismercy's post #17

Instead of 2 categories I would include a third -- false prophets which is part of the mission of the forum of "making sense of the Lord's recovery"

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

That is not my question. My question is when was this swift judgement made.

They are in the climax of a full-on war. The Lord comes with His armies to fight, kill and destroy Antichrist and his armies. The Antichrist and False Prophet have already been judged, no trial.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

There is a legal process -- charged with a crime (crime here is clearly rebellion), you are tried, you are convicted, you are sentenced, and then that sentence is carried out.

There is no indication of any legal process, but what is going on is a war. It's kill or be killed. Many others are also killed, kings, people, and armies by Christ and His armies.

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

the false prophet is ....judged at the throne of Christ with the believers. .

No way, nope. There is no judicial process, no trial. The closest one is the JSoC, but that is for believers, and it we cannot throw the False Prophet into it.

Revelation says that the Lord is the righteous judge, and at Armageddon "in righteousness He judges and makes war".

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Raptor

They are in the climax of a full-on war. The Lord comes with His armies to fight, kill and destroy Antichrist and his armies. The Antichrist and False Prophet have already been judged, no trial.

I agree they have already been judged, but "no trial"? Are you accusing the Lord of unrighteousness?

Originally Posted by Raptor

There is no indication of any legal process, but what is going on is a war. It's kill or be killed. Many others are also killed, kings, people, and armies by Christ and His armies.

Baloney. There is plenty of indication of a legal process. 2 Corinthians 5:10 -- "For we must all appear before the judgement seat of Christ" You said that the false prophet was a man, are you now annulling Paul's word in 2Corinthians?

Originally Posted by Raptor

No way, nope. There is no judicial process, no trial. The closest one is the JSoC, but that is for believers, and it we cannot throw the False Prophet into it.

Revelation says that the Lord is the righteous judge, and at Armageddon "in righteousness He judges and makes war".

What about Revelation 3:5, if your name is in the book of life doesn't that make you a believer? If your name is blotted out of the book of life what then? When does this take place?

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Can we come back to topic?

I doubt if byHismercy was captivated by the details of the Beast's judgment when she started this thread.

ZNP you took us down some future Rabbit Hole.

ZNP and others,

Please refrain from being overly argumentative, flaming other posters and wondering off topic. The opening Post is pretty clear. Review it if you have to...but let's stick to the Local Church's teaching about the "1000 years of darkness" and other closely related teachings of Nee and Lee
-

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Ohio

You seem to think that this "falling away" will only occur in the future, at some definite point.

I agree some of this will occur. The coming "mark of the beast" will be a definite turning point for the people of God. It will be a test many will fail.

But the verse above mentions "doctrines of demons." One example given is "forbidding to marry." (I Tim 4.3) Rome has long forbidden their priests to marry, with much corruption resulting (e.g. pedophilia). Has not this part of the "falling away" been going on for centuries?

Yes, that's what scripture points to; a definitive point in time when the Holy Spirit will be removed and Satan is cast down to earth. At that point the antichrist will come on the public stage.

I understand that Satan and his demons have been at work since creation but Satan still has access between the earth and the spiritual realm. The time will come when he'll be cast out of heaven and forced to make home in a person, which is the man of lawlessness.

It's not going to be a pretty time and masses of professing Christians will fall away. The seeds of false doctrines are already being planted in the hearts and minds of men. Make sure you do all that you can to stand firm in the faith. Focus on the simplicity of Christ and his gospel and turn away from the deep hidden esoteric knowledge of Satan.

[Raptor]

The judgement seat of Christ is a focal point we see in the scriptures where the Lord will either reward or discipline His believers. Both in 2 Cor. 5:10 and Rom. 14:10 it is clear that the judgement seat is only for believers:

For we must all be manifested before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done through the body according to what he has practiced, whether good or bad." AND "But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God."

"We must all", and "we will all" refers to all believers, not all men. Paul is talking to believers in those verses and sections. The False Prophet and Antichrist are UNBELIEVERS, there is no way they will be grouped together with believers at the JSoC. They are cast alive into the lake of fire.

[Jo S]

I know UntoHim said to stick to the topic of 1000 years of outerdarkness but I wanted to back up Raptor here in hopes to end the argument.

It's simple, The beast and false prophet's judgments were already written of.

Whomever decides to fill those future roles will also adopt the pre-rendered judgment of God.

There will be no trial, no new evidence, and no changing God's mind concerning these individuals. Saying otherwise is nullifying God's word.

If these individuals stand before Christ it'll only be to be led away by the bailiffs.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Yes, that's what scripture points to; a definitive point in time when the Holy Spirit will be removed and Satan is cast down to earth. At that point the antichrist will come on the public stage.

Many Christians today are convinced that they will be raptured PRIOR to the tribulation or time of testing called the "falling away." For obvious reasons, most ministers avoid this topic. Times are coming that will obviously shock us all.

To his credit, Lee did go thru the N.T. and taught on nearly every verse. Back in the early days, his teachings were more about the Bible and less about his pet projects.

Lee actually had a good number of accurate teachings on eschatology, which he passed on from Govett and Panton. They definitely were pioneers in the field. Lee did tackle many troublesome verses. That's not to say I endorse everything, and frankly there is much I don't know. The GLA LC's also had many learned brothers which were a tremendous benefit over the years.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Many Christians today are convinced that they will be raptured PRIOR to the tribulation or time of testing called the "falling away."

What do you believe?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Many Christians today are convinced that they will be raptured PRIOR to the tribulation or time of testing called the "falling away." For obvious reasons, most ministers avoid this topic. Times are coming that will obviously shock us all.

To his credit, Lee did go thru the N.T. and taught on nearly every verse. Back in the early days, his teachings were more about the Bible and less about his pet projects.

Lee actually had a good number of accurate teachings on eschatology, which he passed on from Govett and Panton. They definitely were pioneers in the field. Lee did tackle many troublesome verses. That's not to say I endorse everything, and frankly there is much I don't know. The GLA LC's also had many learned brothers which were a tremendous benefit over the years.

Thanks for saying that, Ohio! I still believe the multiple rapture concept and certainly see scriptural basis for it - the idea of fruit ripening and being ready for harvest at different times. And you are right, WL got most of that from others. I used to be real dogmatic about this and certain other teachings (like an old earth), but these days hold these ideas much more loosely.

It is interesting to go back and forth about such things with others, but ultimately it's a non-essential. I liked what a brother said when we went through Revelation and the Lord's coming last year, "The main point of all this is BE READY!!"

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Jo S

I know UntoHim said to stick to the topic of 1000 years of outerdarkness but I wanted to back up Raptor here in hopes to end the argument.

It's simple, The beast and false prophet's judgments were already written of.

Whomever decides to fill those future roles will also adopt the pre-rendered judgment of God.

There will be no trial, no new evidence, and no changing God's mind concerning these individuals. Saying otherwise is nullifying God's word.

If these individuals stand before Christ it'll only be to be led away by the bailiffs.

I have opened another thread titled "False prophets". It seems like that is the best way to continue this discussion.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Many Christians today are convinced that they will be raptured PRIOR to the tribulation or time of testing called the "falling away."

Originally Posted by Jo S

What do you believe?

Some will be taken away before the hour of trial. Lots of verses here.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Many Christians today are convinced that they will be raptured PRIOR to the tribulation or time of testing called the "falling away." For obvious reasons, most ministers avoid this topic. Times are coming that will obviously shock us all.

Here you equated the "time of testing" to the "falling away".

The word "testing" infers the potential to either pass or fall.

Scripture says that the "apostasia" will occur when the restrainer or the Holy Shirt is taken away.

My question would be this; What would the purpose of a testing be if there was no hope of salvation (the Holy Spirit)?

It seems that this type of testing would be sadistic in nature and of course not in line with God's character.

Those sealed by God are not appointed to His wrath but there are no promises of anyone escaping tribulation.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Yes, you're correct. And I mean believers in the sense of having knowledge of the truth but are unregenerate. When the restrainer (the Holy Spirit) is removed these believers will eventually fall away from the true gospel and into deceitful doctrines taught by demons.(1 Tim 4:1).


It's scary to think that in the last days there will be individuals outwardly professing Christ and preforming miracles yet they won't be empowered by the Holy Spirit but by Satan.

The last days and now. Or maybe these are the last days. Because those you just described is really what I experienced in the LC. They came to me in the name of my Jesus, but practiced hiding the truth, and covering over of the sinful reality, deceiving me in all manner of things and ways. They even claimed shunning us was following the Holy Spirit. But the Lord did anything but shun me afterwards, and I have come to believe that they are being led by a false spirit, not the Spirit of Christ.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

The last days and now. Or maybe these are the last days. Because those you just described is really what I experienced in the LC. They came to me in the name of my Jesus, but practiced hiding the truth, and covering over of the sinful reality, deceiving me in all manner of things and ways. They even claimed shunning us was following the Holy Spirit. But the Lord did anything but shun me afterwards, and I have come to believe that they are being led by a false spirit, not the Spirit of Christ.

You're absolutely correct, byHismercy.

I believe ZNP said it. God uses false prophets, at least in the case of His children, for good.

"Now when they fall, they will be granted a little help, but many will join them insincerely. Some of the wise will fall, so that they may be refined, purified, and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time." -Daniel 11:34-35

I know it's been difficult coping, but the Lord used your experience of falling into the Local Churches to purify you and prepare you for what's ahead. Take comfort in knowing that.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Here you equated the "time of testing" to the "falling away".

The word "testing" infers the potential to either pass or fall.

Scripture says that the "apostasia" will occur when the restrainer or the Holy Shirt is taken away.

My question would be this; What would the purpose of a testing be if there was no hope of salvation (the Holy Spirit)?

It seems that this type of testing would be sadistic in nature and of course not in line with God's character.

Those sealed by God are not appointed to His wrath but there are no promises of anyone escaping tribulation.

How you pass the test (i.e. he who endures to the end shall be saved) determines whether you fall away.

[Raptor]

"unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness is revealed". Why is apostasy so closely coupled with the man of lawlessness in this verse?

MAYBE MAYBE MAYBE MAYBE MAYBE MAYBE

TLDR: the apostasy may be a general atmosphere of rebellion in the whole world, but specifically the ultimate rebellion, that is Antichrist stopping the sacrifices, setting up his image in the temple, and making himself God.

The more I look at all the related verses (Matt, 2 Tim, 2 Thess, Rev, Dan) it seems that there is/will be a universal trend and atmosphere of rebellion and lawlessness that will culminate in Antichrist. Just like a tidal wave, reaching its peak trying to deceive and carry away anyone, either Nations, Christians or Jews. But since the verse and section in 2 Thess. is about the apostasy and Antichrist, it might be good to try to understand "the apostasy" by seeing first the world situation and actions of the Antichrist right before he is revealed as a man of lawlessness, when he is "still good". He is probably going to be an outstanding politician and economist, accomplishing unprecedented things, very charismatic, garnering much political and military support and increasing in power and influence in the whole world, culminating as the leader of the restored Roman Empire. Eventually he brokers the 7 year peace treaty that allows Israel to resume the sacrifices and offerings in the rebuilt temple. That is probably the greatest political accomplishment of the modern age. There will have to be a huge world-wide support behind him to do this and one that had been going on for several years. Just the fact the the temple is rebuilt, indicates a nations-wide, long term support for Israel over several years. He and the whole system behind him will be in favor of Israel, they will be "Zionists", in favor of the Jews, Israel, Jerusalem, the temple, and then even the sacrifices.

Then suddenly he breaks the treaty 3.5 years into it, stops the sacrifices and will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God. That is the culmination of rebellion, a great apostasy, a great falling away. Not only by him and for him, but he drags all the world with him into that rebellion, all those people, countries and kings now rebel with him too. There is probably no greater old covenant sin against God as this, to proclaim to be God, force people to worship you or die, and place an idol of yourself in the temple of God. This may be "the apostasy comes first" and then right after this he is revealed as the beast, the man of lawlessness.

Daniel 9:27 And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation, until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him.

"And he will confirm a covenant with many for one week" = still good.

"...end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of the temple will come the abomination that causes desolation" (Antichrist idol) = apostasy

"until the decreed destruction is poured out upon him" = man of lawlessness

[byHismercy]

Hi saints,

I have not further studied Timothy or Revelation, but when I went to bed the other night, this is the word the Lord gave me.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say to you, He that hears My word, and believes on Him that sent Me, has everlasting life, and SHALL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION; but is passed from death to life.

I put a lot of stock and faith into this when I, seeking the answer to this question, flip open the bible and this is the first thing He shows me.

(I'm not sure why the first he is capitalized in this verse in my translation, it's a KJVER. It seems like a typo. I would think the Lord is speaking about the believers, and should not be capitalized. In this passage the Lord Jesus was addressing Jews who were seeking to slay Him.)

So if I could, I would love to direct some of this conversation back to my original question regarding 1,000 years outer darkness. Where specifically in scripture was this doctrine taken from? Or was it cobbled together from many places? This doctrine of a place of punishment for believers, I mean. When I search with Google I come up empty, on this topic.

I remember one sister told me that when we stand before the Lord, there will be judgment of our faith and works and divers rewards bestowed. This came from one who then turned all the things she had taught me and proved she didn't actually believe them with the shunning. So I don't think I can trust anything she shared, anymore.

[Cal]

Instead of worrying about the punishment for unfaithfulness, why not just focus on being faithful, and let the Lord figure it out?

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Instead of worrying about the punishment for unfaithfulness, why not just focus on being faithful, and let the Lord figure it out?

This is just one of many 'suspect' doctrines I received from the LC. Nowadays I question everything that came from that poisonous well. I would like to see the truth regarding all the false things. I am deeply curious about things pertaining to the Lord and His salvation, aren't you, Igzy?? Doctrine is so important! How can I casually stroll into some (new to me) assembly in my local area not understanding fully what they believe, what I believe, and most importantly, what Jesus believes!! I guess that's why. If He gives me questions, I want to find answers, not just shrug, and not think about it. To my familys' detriment that was my attitude before. I am not even sure how many times I thought to myself, `hey, that doesn't match (my limited knowledge of) scripture' while in the LC. And guess what I did? Nada. I was not like the bereans, and I learned that lesson well, I hope.

And Igzy, I will pray for your family situation. My heart goes out to you.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

So if I could, I would love to direct some of this conversation back to my original question regarding 1,000 years outer darkness. Where specifically in scripture was this doctrine taken from? Or was it cobbled together from many places? This doctrine of a place of punishment for believers, I mean.

“We must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad” (v. 2Cor5:10).

I assume that you understand that every Christian must appear before the judgement seat of Christ to be recompensed according to their deeds, whether good or bad.

“If any man’s work which he has built on it [the foundation of Christ] remains, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.” (ICor3:14-15)

I also assume you understand that some will receive loss and their work will be burned up, but they will still be saved ultimately, but as though they went through fire.

“So then each of us will give an account of himself to God.” (Rom 14:12)

I assume this is not the issue.

11And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven: 12but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. (Matt 8:11-12)

It is very difficult to interpret the sons of the kingdom as unbelievers. If that is what you are doing then you will open up a whole new can of worms.

11But when the king came in to behold the guests, he saw there a man who had not on a wedding-garment: 12and he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding-garment? And he was speechless. 13Then the king said to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and cast him out into the outer darkness; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. 14For many are called, but few chosen. (Matt 22:11-13)

It is also very difficult to interpret one who was invited to the marriage of the Lamb and came to the marriage feast as anything other than a believer. Not having a wedding garment does not indicate an unbeliever but rather a believer whose works are not worthy of the Lord.

30And cast ye out the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

Of all the cases the Lord uses this is the most difficult to interpret as being anything but a believer. The person is a servant of the Lord who has received a Gold talent. His issue is that he buried the treasure and was lazy.

[UntoHim]

Original, opening post:

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Does anybody else feel this LC doctrine is completely incorrect? It seems a contradiction of scripture to me, to teach this to regenerated believers. God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all. To spend 1,000 years outside of Gods light would be a temporary hell, as I see it. How could any believer end up there? And isn't this temporary punishment the same as a catholic purgatory?
Is this another tactic used by these LC con artists to instill fear and implement control over the body of Christ?

There is very little dispute among serious Christians that there will be some form of reward and some form of punishment for Christians in the coming Kingdom. I would suggest that anyone who is serious about finding out the various understandings and interpretations would have absolutely no problem at all, after doing a reasonable amount of digging, finding out what understandings and interpretations seem the most biblical and logical.

What we do know for sure is Witness Lee's interpretation and teaching of reward and punishment was totally off base. Firstly, Lee was totally unqualified to make such weighty judgments regarding something so profound as reward and punishment in the coming Kingdom. How could it be that a man that was so loose and irresponsible with reward and punishment in the present age be trusted to give an accurate teaching regarding reward and punishment in the next age?
-

[Nell]

I think the point of this whole issue is to be accountable, in this age, for your sins and disobedience. Seek the light now and live and walk in the light now. Be quick to repent now. I pray that in nothing would I be deceived; that in nothing would I remain accountable.

Living the Christian life while accountable for the light we have should render the teaching on Outer Darkness a moot point.

Nell

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Hi saints, I have not further studied Timothy or Revelation, but when I went to bed the other night, this is the word the Lord gave me. John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say to you, He that hears My word, and believes on Him that sent Me, has everlasting life, and SHALL NOT COME INTO CONDEMNATION; but is passed from death to life.

The condemnation here is God´s judgment on sinners that never believed on Him. Once we believe we are saved from that condemnation. But once saved, God desires that we live a life that is well pleasing to Him. Matthew 25:1-30 uses 2 different parables about how believers should live once we are saved, loving Him and serving Him. I encourage you to study these in detail. All 10 virgins are expecting to meet the Bridegroom, but 5 are foolish and 5 are wise. The slaves are entrusted to serve the Master, some serve faithfully, but one is lazy and does not.

They are clearly saved believers, but each get a reward or discipline accordingly: the foolish virgins miss the wedding feast and are not recognized by the Lord, and the lazy slave is called evil by the Lord and is punished into outer darkness. But look at the reward for being ready and faithful "....the bridegroom arrived. Those who were ready went in with Him to the wedding banquet", and "Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Enter into the joy of your master!".

By His grace and mercy, we can choose to love Him, pursue Him, gain Him, serve Him faithfully and be well pleasing to Him at His coming!

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Raptor

The condemnation here is God´s judgment on sinners that never believed on Him. Once we believe we are saved from that condemnation. But once saved, God desires that we live a life that is well pleasing to Him. Matthew 25:1-30 uses 2 different parables about how believers should live once we are saved, loving Him and serving Him. I encourage you to study these in detail. All 10 virgins are expecting to meet the Bridegroom, but 5 are foolish and 5 are wise. The slaves are entrusted to serve the Master, some serve faithfully, but one is lazy and does not.

They are clearly saved believers, but each get a reward or discipline accordingly: the foolish virgins miss the wedding feast and are not recognized by the Lord, and the lazy slave is called evil by the Lord and is punished into outer darkness. But look at the reward for being ready and faithful "....the bridegroom arrived. Those who were ready went in with Him to the wedding banquet", and "Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Enter into the joy of your master!".

By His grace and mercy, we can choose to love Him, pursue Him, gain Him, serve Him faithfully and be well pleasing to Him at His coming!

In going through the first several books of the Old Testament, I'm struck by how severely the Lord held people accountable! So we shouldn't be too surprised that there is some level of accountability in the New Covenant too. God is love AND light. Praise the Lord that we are in a covenant of GRACE! But again, we need to be aware that there are cautions and warnings and admonitions in the NT to not get distracted or turn aside or fall in the practice of gross sin, etc. The encouragement in Hebrews is to look away to Him and be diligent to enter into His rest - all that He has done for us and all that he is in us! (But remember. . . the children of Israel were not allowed to enter because they didn't trust Him.)

Bottom-line to me is to be "faithful in a few things" as the Lord told the faithful servants in Matt 25 (and the "snapshots" of faith of those listed in Hebrews 11), then we'll hear, "Well done good and faithful servant! Enter into the joy of the Lord!"

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

[COLOR="Blue"]

11But when the king came in to behold the guests, he saw there a man who had not on a wedding-garment: 12and he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding-garment? And he was speechless. 13Then the king said to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and cast him out into the outer darkness; there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. 14For many are called, but few chosen. (Matt 22:11-13)

It is also very difficult to interpret one who was invited to the marriage of the Lamb and came to the marriage feast as anything other than a believer. Not having a wedding garment does not indicate an unbeliever but rather a believer whose works are not worthy of the Lord.

30And cast ye out the unprofitable servant into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth.

Of all the cases the Lord uses this is the most difficult to interpret as being anything but a believer. The person is a servant of the Lord who has received a Gold talent. His issue is that he buried the treasure and was lazy.

Let me say, I agree completely with all these response posts. I agree with obeying the Lord in all things, and being faithful to Him, and I really appreciate everyone's input. I don't dispute any of your encouraging responses. I was worried I was being misinterpreted which is why I left off this thread. My reason for wondering if there is actually 1,000 years outer darkness for believers was not some reasoning inside where I would like to live in sin and 'get away' with it by showing there is no punishment for Christian's. I want to be obedient to Him in all ways AND simultaneously I don't believe there is any such a punishment for regenerated believers. I think is is a lie from the devil......1,000 years outer darkness. I think it is important to figure these things out, not to give us license to sin, nor live in our own private rebellion against God.

I realize ZNP may not be around for this response to his post, but I wanted to more respond to the interpretation of this passage as I am learning this year about rightly dividing the word and that method gives me fresh insight, and I am interpreting this passage so very differently than ZNP and for that matter completely differently than I would have myself a year ago.


Matthew 22 King James Version (KJV)
22 And Jesus answered and spake unto them again by parables, and said,

2 The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son,

3 And sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come.

4 Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.

5 But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:

6 And the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.

7 But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.

8 Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.

9 Go ye therefore into the highways, and as many as ye shall find, bid to the marriage.

10 So those servants went out into the highways, and gathered together all as many as they found, both bad and good: and the wedding was furnished with guests.

11 And when the king came in to see the guests, he saw there a man which had not on a wedding garment:

12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.

13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness, there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

14 For many are called, but few are chosen.

15 Then went the Pharisees, and took counsel how they might entangle him in his talk.

16 And they sent out unto him their disciples with the Herodians, saying, Master, we know that thou art true, and teachest the way of God in truth, neither carest thou for any man: for thou regardest not the person of men.

17 Tell us therefore, What thinkest thou? Is it lawful to give tribute unto Caesar, or not?

18 But Jesus perceived their wickedness, and said, Why tempt ye me, ye hypocrites?

19 Shew me the tribute money. And they brought unto him a penny.

20 And he saith unto them, Whose is this image and superscription?

21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

22 When they had heard these words, they marvelled, and left him, and went their way.

The kingdom of heaven is the gospel Jesus preached to the Jews, Gods' chosen people.

The ones bidden to the wedding, who would not come=the jews.

The king, (God), sent more of His servants to bid them come and the remnant(the jews) treated the servants spiteful, even slew them. (This was Gods people, the Jews, reaction to the gospel brought by Jesus)

Vs 7 God punished His chosen...as history bears. He said they were not worthy of the invitation to the wedding, and sent His servants out to the highways...anywhere else, with the wedding invitation (the gospel of Christ comes to the gentiles everywhere....all are invited)

Both bad and good were found and brought to the wedding....it was furnished with guests.

The king, God, found guests without wedding garments on(these are the tares, they are unregenerate, they do not have Christ put on as their spotless garment) these without Christ as their wedding garment were cast out into outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth=hell. This is the same way hell is described elsewhere in scripture. This is not where regenerated believers will ever go.

There is therefore now NO CONDEMNATION to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. ROM 8:1

Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be SAVED FROM WRATH through Him. ROM 5:9

I have more but I would like to take it in chunks. I am learning to rightly divide the word from Pastor Gene Kim. Honestly, every apparent so called 'contradiction' in Gods word is not confusing anymore through discerning who He is speaking to. I am excited to learn more and more of Gods word applying this method and I welcome input! Iron sharpens iron! Let everything with breath praise the Lord!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

I want to be obedient to Him in all ways AND simultaneously I don't believe there is any such a punishment for regenerated believers. I think is is a lie from the devil......1,000 years outer darkness. I think it is important to figure these things out, not to give us license to sin, nor live in our own private rebellion against God.

Thanks for this post, and all the Bible references.

After living this life I think a day in outer darkness could be a desired respite. My question is : What's outer mean? If it means no other people in it I'm all for it. I could use a day break from people. Hopefully longer, if allowed.

And thanks Jesus, for telling me about it. Otherwise I'd be stuck somewhere in other darkness not knowing if it's forever or not. A day is one thing. But forever? That's another. Now I know it's for only a day.

Then I hope God is welling to answer a bunch of questions I've collected for Him.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

Thanks for this post, and all the Bible references.

After living this life I think a day in outer darkness could be a desired respite. My question is : What's outer mean? If it means no other people in it I'm all for it. I could use a day break from people. Hopefully longer, if allowed.

And thanks Jesus, for telling me about it. Otherwise I'd be stuck somewhere in other darkness not knowing if it's forever or not. A day is one thing. But forever? That's another. Now I know it's for only a day.

So where are you getting "only for a day?"

[OBW]

The problem with understanding these parables, like understanding Revelation, is that that it is mostly pictures designed to portray a message, not details designed to support doctrine. It is designed to elicit a response, not an argument.

Is outer darkness with weeping and gnashing of teeth the point, or is the lack of following correctly? Keeping fresh with oil in your lamp v relying on what we got years prior. Being ready, not just getting an invitation. Are there really 4 horses? And on and on . . . .

I am not saying that outer darkness is something to ignore. But the point is not to understand what it actually is. The point is to not have to deal with it, whatever it is. Whether it is something permanent or temporary. Whether it is horrible so we weep and gnash teeth, or just weep and gnash because we miss out on something that we didn't have to miss.

And Revelation is not so much about detailing the end times as it is giving us some strong encouragement to be ready. Period. Now. Not just when we are older and more likely to die.

[OBW]

The problem with understanding these parables, like understanding Revelation, is that that it is mostly pictures designed to portray a message, not details designed to support doctrine. It is designed to elicit a response, not an argument.

Is outer darkness with weeping and gnashing of teeth the point, or is the lack of following correctly? Keeping fresh with oil in your lamp v relying on what we got years prior. Being ready, not just getting an invitation. Are there really 4 horses? And on and on . . . .

I am not saying that outer darkness is something to ignore. But the point is not to understand what it actually is. The point is to not have to deal with it, whatever it is. Whether it is something permanent or temporary. Whether it is horrible so we weep and gnash teeth, or just weep and gnash because we miss out on something that we didn't have to miss.

And Revelation is not so much about detailing the end times as it is giving us some strong encouragement to be ready. Period. Now. Not just when we are older and more likely to die.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by OBW

The problem with understanding these parables, like understanding Revelation, is that that it is mostly pictures designed to portray a message, not details designed to support doctrine. It is designed to elicit a response, not an argument.

Is outer darkness with weeping and gnashing of teeth the point, or is the lack of following correctly? Keeping fresh with oil in your lamp v relying on what we got years prior. Being ready, not just getting an invitation. Are there really 4 horses? And on and on . . . .

I am not saying that outer darkness is something to ignore. But the point is not to understand what it actually is. The point is to not have to deal with it, whatever it is. Whether it is something permanent or temporary. Whether it is horrible so we weep and gnash teeth, or just weep and gnash because we miss out on something that we didn't have to miss.

And Revelation is not so much about detailing the end times as it is giving us some strong encouragement to be ready. Period. Now. Not just when we are older and more likely to die.

Yes, the particulars are hard to discern specifically, and they were designed that way. So that only His Spirit can reveal them!

This makes me think of what a brother shared not long ago as we were going through prophetic passages, "Regardless of what all these things mean exactly, the main point is - BE READY!!"

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So where are you getting "only for a day?"

"one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.: II Peter 3:8

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by awareness

"one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.: II Peter 3:8

To me this speaks of eternity, that is, the absence of time -- therefore/for instance He can do 1000 years worth of things in one day, and visa versa.

Not sure if this applies to us, but perhaps . . .

[OBW]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Yes, the particulars are hard to discern specifically, and they were designed that way. So that only His Spirit can reveal them!

(emphasis mine)

I think that it more like it may not ever be revealed because the nebulous negativity that is implied is exactly what is meant. The specifics were not meant to be figured out or revealed. The point was to avoid it no matter what it could possibly mean.

I'm sure that there is some kind of cost. And being left outside in the dark weeping and gnashing your teeth says it is not insignificant.

Nuff said.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by awareness

"one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.: II Peter 3:8

I doubt that the verse is meant to give a specific relationship. Rather to state how insignificant time as we know it is to God. Could have said one days is like a million years (and visa versa) but they probably couldn't comprehend the number.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by OBW

I doubt that the verse is meant to give a specific relationship. Rather to state how insignificant time as we know it is to God. Could have said one days is like a million years (and visa versa) but they probably couldn't comprehend the number.

True, but isn't outer darkness in that insignificant time zone? Where a million is nothing? I don't know. Outer darkness could be in limbo for all I know.

But really, outer darkness is likely a just metaphor. It's not likely that people are there right now, gnashing their teeth.

[ABrotherinFaith]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The dead in Christ rise first, then those of us who remain. So the idea that when we die we are in Christ is consistent that after that we are also raised to stand before the judgement seat of Christ.

Also, even in this section Paul says it is more necessary for him to remain with the believers for their progress and joy in the faith. Why? I would say that is because we all are still "working out our own salvation".

So those believers who died before Christ's return will spend X number of years with Christ regardless of certain actions that, one Christ returns, will get them 1000 years in outer darkness?

[JJ]

I’m a Johnny Come Lately to this thread.

I recall Witness Lee saying that he had picked up a lot of his teachings related to this topic from Robert Govett, G.H. Lang, and others who’s names I don’t remember. Schoettle Publishing https://www.schoettlepublishing.com/ sells books that may provide answers to those looking for biblical basis (or not) of Witness Lee’s teachings.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by ABrotherinFaith

So those believers who died before Christ's return will spend X number of years with Christ regardless of certain actions that, one Christ returns, will get them 1000 years in outer darkness?

This whole disconnect with dying and being immediately with Christ v raising from the dead at his 2nd coming has always perplexed me.

I know that some say that our time with him before that day is strictly spiritual, with no body. But I am not sold on it.

Alternately, it could be that at the resurrection we are then with Christ and what intervenes is what might be described as limbo. Therefore, as far as we can tell, it is immediate.

I can find nothing that makes one or the other correct. So I basically stay out of it. Which it is (or some other alternative) has no bearing on now, or on eternity. And to get to eternity, you need to deal with now. If I deal with now, I eventually get to then and it will be what it will be. It is not a part of my statement of faith (and shouldn't be part of anyone's). When it comes to minor issues, this one is a minor among minors.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by OBW

I can find nothing that makes one or the other correct. So I basically stay out of it. Which it is (or some other alternative) has no bearing on now, or on eternity. And to get to eternity, you need to deal with now. If I deal with now, I eventually get to then and it will be what it will be. It is not a part of my statement of faith (and shouldn't be part of anyone's). When it comes to minor issues, this one is a minor among minors.

Agreed! The majoring on the major is - BE READY!

[Raptor]

There are several issues that I cannot resolve, mainly because the word does not seem to go into that much detail.

1.) there is no clear verse or passages that define outer darkness lasting 1,000 years specifically. The idea is built on a couple of assumptions.

2.) there is no teaching that attempts to balance out the 1,000 year discipline with the possibility that there would be relative punishments, that is, one 273 years, another 750, another 493, depending on the condition of each believer.

(Actually I was in a conference with Benson Phillips speaking and as a side note while he was mentioning the 1,000 years he said something like, "....1,000 years or if one gets 500 years, or whatever the number...". Something like that, specifically alluding to the possibility of some relative number or years. I remember how the audience reacted audibly with "what?....", and "oooohhhh wow" and "huh....?". There were obvious reactions, surprised looks and such all over. First and only time I ever heard that in the Recovery.)

3.) The Bible does clearly say that dead believers will go to Paradise, but there are not many details about what happens there, except general stuff, like we are sleeping, that we are with the Lord, Lazarus was comforted by Abraham. There is no details about what our experience there might be or what happens for example to a really bad, backslidden believer when he goes to Paradise. Is he at peace, ashamed? (the judgment seat of Christ with rewards and disciplines is after we resurrect from Paradise).

[Sons to Glory!]

Welcome back, Raptor! What you posted seems fine, or at least I don't have much heart to go back & forth on all of the details any more. Because it seems some things are not clear in scripture and/or it purposely is not revealed to us. And any further revealing will be done by the HS (as all true revealing is!).

I just know there is a race and we should run it looking away unto Jesus and to win. To win means there is also something to loose. So, as with any goal, there is the plus of getting it and the potential loss of not getting it. And just as we don't really know or comprehend what the reward is, we also don't know what the loss fully is either.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Welcome back, Raptor! What you posted seems fine, or at least I don't have much heart to go back & forth on all of the details any more. Because it seems some things are not clear in scripture and/or it purposely is not revealed to us. And any further revealing will be done by the HS (as all true revealing is!).

I just know there is a race and we should run it looking away unto Jesus and to win. To win means there is also something to loose. So, as with any goal, there is the plus of getting it and the potential loss of not getting it. And just as we don't really know or comprehend what the reward is, we also don't know what the loss fully is either.

I recently listened to a portion of a message where Derek Prince addresses the issue of how the early church apostles were expecting the Lord to come back really soon. And how Jesus Himself says that He will come back quickly. Of course many mockers have attacked those ideas saying, "where is He? That was not fulfilled, look, 2000 years already...."

But what Prince mentions is that it is correct all the way until now for every believer. The Lord will come back quickly for each one of us, because even if we live a long life and then die, when we are dead in Paradise, Derek thinks we do not experience time, we are in an eternal realm. Then when we resurrect, we are back in time. So in our experience, we die and when we resurrect the first thing we see is the Lord, there is no time that has passed for us, so it ends up being pretty quick.

[Sons to Glory!]

Yeah, that could be. But also I've been seeing that our sense of time is not that good. For instance, everyone says time seems to go quicker the older one gets. This makes sense, because a year to a ten year old is one tenth of their life - seems like a long time. However, to a 60 year old, one year is just 1/60th - relatively speaking not as long. So how does a year seem to someone who is ancient? I suspect it's quite momentary (as in our "momentary light affliction"). The Bible says a man's life is like a fleeting vapor - here and then gone almost immediately. In the Old Testament, for instance, several hundred years passed before God fulfilled the promise to give the children of Israel, captive in Egypt, the good land. So what is even a thousand years then in God's wise timing?

From our perspective, it's a very, very long time. From His perspective, I think it's "quickly."

[awareness]

It's been only 2 days.

[HBJ]

Folks, if I'm going to believe in 1000 years of outer darkness, I might as well become a Catholic and pray for the dead and believe in purgatory! It renders the saving blood of Jesus Christ ineffectual and useless! The word says we will be before the "bema" seat and get a reward based upon what we have done as a Christian. Either gold, silver, precious jewels or wood, hay, and stubble. If all you get is Salvation, but you didn't live a life for Christ, you will get in but you won't have any crowns to throw at His feet. The 1000 years was just a scare tactic to make people afraid of leaving the LC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry but I can't handle what I believe is unmitigated hooey!!! (Yes anyone can disagree with me). If I believe in 1000 years of outer darkness, I might as well join a religion where I flog myself with sharpened sticks to atone for my sins. Everyone ---- 1000 years of outer darkness for Christians is equivalent to having to atone for your sins ==
Jesus' death on the cross == meaningless

[awareness]

Originally Posted by HBJ

Folks, if I'm going to believe in 1000 years of outer darkness, I might as well become a Catholic and pray for the dead and believe in purgatory! It renders the saving blood of Jesus Christ ineffectual and useless! The word says we will be before the "bema" seat and get a reward based upon what we have done as a Christian. Either gold, silver, precious jewels or wood, hay, and stubble. If all you get is Salvation, but you didn't live a life for Christ, you will get in but you won't have any crowns to throw at His feet. The 1000 years was just a scare tactic to make people afraid of leaving the LC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry but I can't handle what I believe is unmitigated hooey!!! (Yes anyone can disagree with me). If I believe in 1000 years of outer darkness, I might as well join a religion where I flog myself with sharpened sticks to atone for my sins. Everyone ---- 1000 years of outer darkness for Christians is equivalent to having to atone for your sins ==
Jesus' death on the cross == meaningless

Not to disagree with you, but outer darkness is a red letter thing, in the gospel of Matthew only.

I'd call it a very important notion, but not enough for anyone else to remark about it ; Mark, Luke, John, nada.

Whoever wrote the gospel that eventually got named Matthew, must have been framing his gospel to appeal to a specific audience, that held a outer darkness doctrine, or saying.

But the entire gospel doesn't toss any of us into outer darkness. We're not Matthew's intended audience.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by HBJ

Folks, if I'm going to believe in 1000 years of outer darkness, I might as well become a Catholic and pray for the dead and believe in purgatory! It renders the saving blood of Jesus Christ ineffectual and useless! The word says we will be before the "bema" seat and get a reward based upon what we have done as a Christian. Either gold, silver, precious jewels or wood, hay, and stubble. If all you get is Salvation, but you didn't live a life for Christ, you will get in but you won't have any crowns to throw at His feet. The 1000 years was just a scare tactic to make people afraid of leaving the LC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry but I can't handle what I believe is unmitigated hooey!!! (Yes anyone can disagree with me). If I believe in 1000 years of outer darkness, I might as well join a religion where I flog myself with sharpened sticks to atone for my sins. Everyone ---- 1000 years of outer darkness for Christians is equivalent to having to atone for your sins ==
Jesus' death on the cross == meaningless

So are you saying there is no potential negative for believers at the Bema Seat of Christ? I think what we've being going back and forth about on this thread is whether the negative would be just a loss of reward, or whether it could be construed as an outright punishment - i.e., outer darkness of some other immensely undesirable thing.

And then there's the infamous "1000 years in outer darkness" that was held over our heads in the LC . . . that has been pretty well debunked on here already!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by HBJ

Folks, if I'm going to believe in 1000 years of outer darkness, I might as well become a Catholic and pray for the dead and believe in purgatory!

Couple points to "confuse" the discussion:

The Corinthians were baptized for the dead, did they not pray for them too? (I Cor 15.29)

Though the Catholic teaching of Purgatory was grotesquely distorted by Luther's time, did it not start out with scriptural support? (I Cor 3.13, 15)

The difficulty here is throwing out the truths of scripture with the errors and leaven.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Couple points to "confuse" the discussion:

The Corinthians were baptized for the dead, did they not pray for them too? (I Cor 15.29)

Though the Catholic teaching of Purgatory was grotesquely distorted by Luther's time, did it not start out with scriptural support? (I Cor 3.13, 15)

The difficulty here is throwing out the truths of scripture with the errors and leaven.

Oh my brother, it dost seem almost as though you are trying to make a case for the RCC here!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Oh my brother, it dost seem almost as though you are trying to make a case for the RCC here!

Absolutely not! God forbid! Heavens no! May it never be!

I will repeat my point, which I have repeated a thousand times here: Don't throw out the truths of scripture when rejecting error, because nearly every time there is valuable truth hidden in that error, just as there is fine flour in the leavened loaf.

This is the real danger of systems of error. You and I are survivors. We left the RCC and yet still believed in Jesus, yet I knew hundreds who did not. We left the LC and still believe in Jesus, yet I know hundreds who did not.

Why? Nearly every time the truth could not be separated from the error. Paul said "test all things, hold on to the good." (I Thess 5.21) This forum is just a "testing ground" for the truths of His word. Unfortunately in both the RCC and the LC there was little opportunity for testing.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by HBJ

Folks, if I'm going to believe in 1000 years of outer darkness, I might as well become a Catholic and pray for the dead and believe in purgatory! It renders the saving blood of Jesus Christ ineffectual and useless! The word says we will be before the "bema" seat and get a reward based upon what we have done as a Christian. Either gold, silver, precious jewels or wood, hay, and stubble. If all you get is Salvation, but you didn't live a life for Christ, you will get in but you won't have any crowns to throw at His feet. The 1000 years was just a scare tactic to make people afraid of leaving the LC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry but I can't handle what I believe is unmitigated hooey!!! (Yes anyone can disagree with me). If I believe in 1000 years of outer darkness, I might as well join a religion where I flog myself with sharpened sticks to atone for my sins. Everyone ---- 1000 years of outer darkness for Christians is equivalent to having to atone for your sins ==
Jesus' death on the cross == meaningless

Yes yes yes, and thank you for expressing what I believe but could not frame! You hit it on point exactly. The 1,000 years of outer darkness totally nullifies the gospel of Christs death for us, and His action there was perfect and completely efficacious! To say we may go into darkness is to deny Jesus work, imho.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Absolutely not! God forbid! Heavens no! May it never be!

I will repeat my point, which I have repeated a thousand times here: Don't throw out the truths of scripture when rejecting error, because nearly every time there is valuable truth hidden in that error, just as there is fine flour in the leavened loaf.

This is the real danger of systems of error. You and I are survivors. We left the RCC and yet still believed in Jesus, yet I knew hundreds who did not. We left the LC and still believe in Jesus, yet I know hundreds who did not.

Why? Nearly every time the truth could not be separated from the error. Paul said "test all things, hold on to the good." (I Thess 5.21) This forum is just a "testing ground" for the truths of His word. Unfortunately in the both the RCC and the LC there was little opportunity for testing.

I really love this perspective, Ohio. Wonderful....a testing ground for error. I agree. Praise the Lord for this sounding board. Quite the opposite from what the LC is. And I think someone voted your name for the next YouTube channel? I second it. Let it be recorded.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by awareness

But the entire gospel doesn't toss any of us into outer darkness. We're not Matthew's intended audience.

This is what I have come to believe, Harold. I didn't know that you agreed. Actually, I was hoping for more input from everyone as to whether they see this exact point, or if they may see if I have misinterpreted that passage of Matthew. I plan on reading a little book by a guy named Ruckman about the two kingdoms, who each gospel is presented to in the word and get more clarity with it. I am so sorry you need a 'days' break from all humanity. I took my 3 little kids into a convenience store the other day, and the guy behind the counter was what you could only describe as abusive. I ultimately felt compassion for this angry man, and that could only come from the Spirit. I myself am naturally vindictive and hateful towards those who mistreat me. Praise Jesus, He must be operating in me! And He would never mistreat you, brother. God bless you and cover you from abuses we lay upon each other in this world. God enlarge your heart and heal you.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

And then there's the infamous "1000 years in outer darkness" that was held over our heads in the LC . . . that has been pretty well debunked on here already!

Should I be reading the other thread on the 1,000 years, Stg?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Should I be reading the other thread on the 1,000 years, Stg?

Not following you . . . there may have been another thread on this, I don't remember if was here or another. Do you not think the 1000 years in outer darkness has been debunked, or . . . ?

[ABrotherinFaith]

Originally Posted by HBJ

Folks, if I'm going to believe in 1000 years of outer darkness, I might as well become a Catholic and pray for the dead and believe in purgatory! It renders the saving blood of Jesus Christ ineffectual and useless! The word says we will be before the "bema" seat and get a reward based upon what we have done as a Christian. Either gold, silver, precious jewels or wood, hay, and stubble. If all you get is Salvation, but you didn't live a life for Christ, you will get in but you won't have any crowns to throw at His feet. The 1000 years was just a scare tactic to make people afraid of leaving the LC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sorry but I can't handle what I believe is unmitigated hooey!!! (Yes anyone can disagree with me). If I believe in 1000 years of outer darkness, I might as well join a religion where I flog myself with sharpened sticks to atone for my sins. Everyone ---- 1000 years of outer darkness for Christians is equivalent to having to atone for your sins ==
Jesus' death on the cross == meaningless

I completely agree. I've never understood having to atone, much less atone by 1000 of separation from Christ. And will some only get 900 years,532 years, 3 years, or is it just a one sentence length deal?

[HBJ]

The older I get the moreI find I can do ZERO without the Lord. My human nature hates that! I was driving on the freeway and someone cut me off. So, I thought the Lord says to have mercy....maybe they just didn't have coffee that AM and were grumpy. I thought I had fulfilled what we are told to do. The Lord spoke to me and said we are to LOVE mercy! I thought WHAT! LOVE being merciful? That throws me out of the equation.

That is why I cannot fathom negative judgment for a believer except for less/no reward. We think we can meet God's standard but the word says if we hate our brother, = murder, or look at a woman with lust, = adultery.

Now there ARE a few verses that I am concerned about. 1) If we don't forgive others' sins, we won't have ours forgiven. What if a Christian who truly accepted the Lord doesn't forgive? Do they lose salvation? We could enter into another thread on that one---Once saved always saved or can you lose it? Or--was the person truly saved to begin with?

We all are responsible for ourselves. If we can say Lord help me forgive, like Corrie Ten Boom forgave a concentration camp guard she knew, we can use His strength. In the end we just have to seek the Lord in spite of things. Don't be concerned if issues from the past come up again and again. Emotions take a long time to heal. Give it to the Lord. I personally figuratively signed over to the Lord a document giving him authority to judge anyone who ever has done wrong against me. That way when emotions come up, they are easier to drop.

2) The word also says that those who teach will be judged more harshly....which should be very sobering to those in leadership position!

Based upon 1 and 2, maybe there are negative consequences when we go before the Lord. But based upon the word as a whole and the nature of man and of God, I cannot believe in anything but the loss of an portion of our eternal reward.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Raptor

There are several issues that I cannot resolve, mainly because the word does not seem to go into that much detail.

1.) there is no clear verse or passages that define outer darkness lasting 1,000 years specifically. The idea is built on a couple of assumptions.

That's right raptor!! In fact it is abundantly clear no scripture says outer darkness lasts for 1,000 years. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Outer darkness is mentioned 3 times and it is mentioned only in Matthew. 8:12, 22:13, and 25:30

8:12:
And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Since studying the doctrine of dispensationalism, which makes total sense to me now and has clarified so many questions, I have learned and discovered that many passages especially in the gospels are addressed to the Jews Jesus was preaching to. Just because we converted gentiles read the gospels and the NT does not necessarily mean the subject matter is directed to us.

So in Matthew 8:12
Jesus speaking to the JEWS not to the church which has not been established tells them many are going to sit down with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. To prove Jesus is not speaking to the gentiles, the gentiles knew nothing about the OT, nothing about Abe, Isaac and Jacob. They are not even in the picture! Jesus preached and revealed Himself to the Jews as Messiah. After Pentecost, Jesus is revealed to the gentiles through the Holy Spirit and Paul's teaching on Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Next. Jesus tells them they will be sitting in the Kingdom of heaven. Not until this past year did I know there is a difference between the Kingdom of heaven and the Kingdom of God.

Did the LC/LSM explain the difference? They did not when I was there.

The TLB (the Living Bible) translates vs 12 as this:
And many an Israelite—those for whom the Kingdom was prepared—shall be cast into outer darkness, into the place of weeping and torment.”

The Kingdom of heaven (not the Kingdom of God) was prepared for the Israelites, the Jews. They are the ones who will be cast into outer darkness for rejecting their Messiah. For how long? It does not say? Will they be able to repent and be given another chance? I think so. I hope so. There may be weeping and gnashing of teeth but it does not say that the outer darkness is in the lake of fire. I might be wrong. What I do know is God is an extremely Merciful GOD. And His Mercy endures forever.

My thoughts, my opinion until I discover otherwise is that those Jews will experience outer darkness during the tribulation. OR perhaps during the thousand year reign, they THE ISRAELITES, THE JEWS will experience outer darkness. No member of the Blood washed church composed of both Jew and Gentile will experience the outer darkness presented in Matthew.

I hope this helps. It sure helped me !

Here is a you tube teaching by Gene Kim that explains the difference between the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God for anyone who is interested.
Blessings to all,
Carol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlVIee2pp_g&t=2432s

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

That's right raptor!! In fact it is abundantly clear no scripture says outer darkness lasts for 1,000 years. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Outer darkness is mentioned 3 times and it is mentioned only in Matthew. 8:12, 22:13, and 25:30

8:12:
And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Since studying the doctrine of dispensationalism, which makes total sense to me now and has clarified so many questions, I have learned and discovered that many passages especially in the gospels are addressed to the Jews Jesus was preaching to. Just because we converted gentiles read the gospels and the NT does not necessarily mean the subject matter is directed to us.

So in Matthew 8:12
Jesus speaking to the JEWS not to the church which has not been established tells them many are going to sit down with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. To prove Jesus is not speaking to the gentiles, the gentiles knew nothing about the OT, nothing about Abe, Isaac and Jacob. They are not even in the picture! Jesus preached and revealed Himself to the Jews as Messiah. After Pentecost, Jesus is revealed to the gentiles through the Holy Spirit and Paul's teaching on Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Next. Jesus tells them they will be sitting in the Kingdom of heaven. Not until this past year did I know there is a difference between the Kingdom of heaven and the Kingdom of God.

Did the LC/LSM explain the difference? They did not when I was there.

The TLB (the Living Bible) translates vs 12 as this:
And many an Israelite—those for whom the Kingdom was prepared—shall be cast into outer darkness, into the place of weeping and torment.”

The Kingdom of heaven (not the Kingdom of God) was prepared for the Israelites, the Jews. They are the ones who will be cast into outer darkness for rejecting their Messiah. For how long? It does not say? Will they be able to repent and be given another chance? I think so. I hope so. There may be weeping and gnashing of teeth but it does not say that the outer darkness is in the lake of fire. I might be wrong. What I do know is God is an extremely Merciful GOD. And His Mercy endures forever.

My thoughts, my opinion until I discover otherwise is that those Jews will experience outer darkness during the tribulation. OR perhaps during the thousand year reign, they THE ISRAELITES, THE JEWS will experience outer darkness. No member of the Blood washed church composed of both Jew and Gentile will experience the outer darkness presented in Matthew.

I hope this helps. It sure helped me !

Here is a you tube teaching by Gene Kim that explains the difference between the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God for anyone who is interested.
Blessings to all,
Carol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlVIee2pp_g&t=2432s

Thanks for that Carol! I haven't watched the video yet, but I will.

I also heard an aged and respected brother speak a few years ago about how the 10 virgins were the Jews and not the church. We didn't know what to think of his speaking, and I just put it in the "Well Lord, I could be wrong about this passage - please show me" category.

So what do you make of the unfaithful servant in Matthew 25 - also a Jewish one?

PS - Yes, God is infinitely merciful, but when working according to the law, He is really strict! So I wonder if the Jews, who reject Christ for the law, might be treated more severely, as it's their choice?

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

That's right raptor!! In fact it is abundantly clear no scripture says outer darkness lasts for 1,000 years. Someone correct me if I am wrong.

Outer darkness is mentioned 3 times and it is mentioned only in Matthew. 8:12, 22:13, and 25:30

8:12:
And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Since studying the doctrine of dispensationalism, which makes total sense to me now and has clarified so many questions, I have learned and discovered that many passages especially in the gospels are addressed to the Jews Jesus was preaching to. Just because we converted gentiles read the gospels and the NT does not necessarily mean the subject matter is directed to us.

So in Matthew 8:12
Jesus speaking to the JEWS not to the church which has not been established tells them many are going to sit down with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. To prove Jesus is not speaking to the gentiles, the gentiles knew nothing about the OT, nothing about Abe, Isaac and Jacob. They are not even in the picture! Jesus preached and revealed Himself to the Jews as Messiah. After Pentecost, Jesus is revealed to the gentiles through the Holy Spirit and Paul's teaching on Jesus and the Holy Spirit.

Next. Jesus tells them they will be sitting in the Kingdom of heaven. Not until this past year did I know there is a difference between the Kingdom of heaven and the Kingdom of God.

Did the LC/LSM explain the difference? They did not when I was there.

The TLB (the Living Bible) translates vs 12 as this:
And many an Israelite—those for whom the Kingdom was prepared—shall be cast into outer darkness, into the place of weeping and torment.”

The Kingdom of heaven (not the Kingdom of God) was prepared for the Israelites, the Jews. They are the ones who will be cast into outer darkness for rejecting their Messiah. For how long? It does not say? Will they be able to repent and be given another chance? I think so. I hope so. There may be weeping and gnashing of teeth but it does not say that the outer darkness is in the lake of fire. I might be wrong. What I do know is God is an extremely Merciful GOD. And His Mercy endures forever.

My thoughts, my opinion until I discover otherwise is that those Jews will experience outer darkness during the tribulation. OR perhaps during the thousand year reign, they THE ISRAELITES, THE JEWS will experience outer darkness. No member of the Blood washed church composed of both Jew and Gentile will experience the outer darkness presented in Matthew.

I hope this helps. It sure helped me !

Here is a you tube teaching by Gene Kim that explains the difference between the Kingdom of Heaven and the Kingdom of God for anyone who is interested.
Blessings to all,
Carol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlVIee2pp_g&t=2432s

Carol, you presented this idea much better than I did. I really am excited about the two different gospels, to the two different kingdoms. It sheds light abroad in my heart, in the word. I don't know how many Christian's know anything about this way to rightly divide the word. I know for me, too, this year is the first I ever heard of it. The book of James was panned by Lee, because it did not seem to match other portions of scripture, with its blend of works and faith. But I never saw it is addressed to another audience altogether, the twelve tribes! Bless you, sister.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Not following you . . . there may have been another thread on this, I don't remember if was here or another. Do you not think the 1000 years in outer darkness has been debunked, or . . . ?

Hi Stg, I reject this teaching, but I really don't know how many of us who have come out of the LC and may have once believed what we were taught about facing 1,000 years outer darkness are clear on this subject. I saw there was another thread on this same subject after I opened this thread. I have not read it yet, but have been meaning to get to it. If it had been debunked in general, praise the Lord.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Thanks for that Carol! I haven't watched the video yet, but I will.

I also heard an aged and respected brother speak a few years ago about how the 10 virgins were the Jews and not the church. We didn't know what to think of his speaking, and I just put it in the "Well Lord, I could be wrong about this passage - please show me" categories.

So what do you make of the unfaithful servant in Matthew 25 - also a Jewish one?

Yes..
In this short video, (3 minutes long) Mark Biltz explains how the 5 wise virgins (Jews) will be guests at the wedding. The 5 foolish do not get to attend the wedding.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNGAMKyTPLI

Here is another teaching on Matthew 25 by pastor Gene Kim.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlNq8ghmH5w

I think he says the 5 wise virgins will be part of the bride. Can't remember for sure. I need to go back to the video.

Both are very convincing points of view.

I used to think Matthew 24 in particular regarding Christ's return was addressing us gentile believers. It was so confusing forme wondering if we Blood washed believers could go through the trib?

That's why I chose "countmeworthy" as my moniker. My prayer was that I would be COUNTED WORTHY to be raptured and not go through the trib.

But the more I understood the power of the Cleansing Blood of Jesus, the more I understood the dispensations in the bible, the clearer I became that we will not go through the trib. Is it possible to lose our rewards at the judgement seat of Christ? Yes. I believe so. So my prayer is now "Countmeworthy Lord that I may not lose my rewards! " Truth be told, I don't worry about it.

[countmeworthy]

Hey all,
In a few posts below, I wrote:

The Kingdom of heaven (not the Kingdom of God) was prepared for the Israelites, the Jews. They are the ones who will be cast into outer darkness for rejecting their Messiah. For how long? It does not say? Will they be able to repent and be given another chance? I think so. I hope so. There may be weeping and gnashing of teeth but it does not say that the outer darkness is in the lake of fire. I might be wrong. What I do know is God is an extremely Merciful GOD. And His Mercy endures forever.

My thoughts, my opinion until I discover otherwise is that those Jews will experience outer darkness during the tribulation.

I am posting a very good teaching on outer darkness by Mark Biltz imho and guess what ??!! he supports my thoughts that the outer darkness will occur during the Tribulation for those foolish virgin Jews. But they will make it!

He explains it so much better than I can. He does a great job of connecting the dots.

Matthew 25 corresponds to many OT passages such as Zephaniah 1:8

“Then it will come about on the day of the Lord’s sacrifice
That I will punish the princes, the king’s sons
And all who clothe themselves with foreign garments.
New American Standard Bible (NASB)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1915y2kPhrQ

Hope these teachings will shed God's Light on the subject of the Outer Darkness which is a punishment for the five foolish Jewish virgins.

Blessings to all.

[Sons to Glory!]

I plan to listen to the Youtube videos a little later, but I must tell you I think I am already getting some clarity on this matter. Yesterday I looked at the opening to Matthew and the other three gospels, and it is apparent to to me that Matthew was written with the Jews especially in mind. The first verse of Matthew opens with reference to David and Abraham, and then presents the geneology of Christ starting with Abraham. None of the other three gospels place anywhere near the emphasis of Christ's roots in the Jewish history as Matthew does.

And, Carol, you mentioned that no other gospel quotes the OT as much. Here is chart I found online:

Book........Direct/indirect citations......Total citations & allusions
Matthew...............44 (49).............................77 (102)
Mark....................18 (23)............................30 (39)
Luke....................20 (24).............................52 (68)
John....................14 (17).............................31 (49)

[Sons to Glory!]

Okay, I listened to the two shorter videos. One thing these are confirming for me is that there is a difference between the virgins and the bride. The bride is always referred to as singular, but for sometime I've been bothered that the virgins are plural.

I always accepted WL's teaching that all the virgins were saved because #1 - they were all virgins waiting for the Bridegroom, and #2 - they all had lamps. (of course WL got the basic teaching from Govett, et.al.) These, to me, are definitely not unbelievers. But, in a Jewish marriage feast the 10 virgins would absolutely NOT be the bride!

However, I don't know if the virgins are ones coming out of the 3.5 year tribulation as both of the short videos indicate. It is interesting that both these speakers advocate multiple raptures, as Nee and Lee did (again, they got this from others). Multiple raptures is something I've always believed . . .

So, thanks again, Carol, for sharing this!

QUESTION: Does bro Gene cover the Faithful and unfaithful servants in Matt 25? (I'm still trying to digest his long video and haven't finished it)

[OBW]

First, this is off-topic, but relevant to this one as well as a lot of other things. I caught this in something CMW was saying about something else. . . .

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

. . . I have learned and discovered that many passages especially in the gospels are addressed to the Jews Jesus was preaching to. Just because we converted gentiles read the gospels and the NT does not necessarily mean the subject matter is directed to us.

I think that this is true in many more ways. Even if you find these things directed at the Jews of the day, there are other things that are written only for certain parts of current Christians. Without trying to get into all the possibilities, it seems clear to me that Jesus spoke differently to the 12 than to the larger group of regular followers, and to all of them differently than to the crowds (both the curious and those who believed and stayed where they were).

For example, he did not talk about servant leadership in contrast to the ways of the Jewish leaders with the idea that every Christian was to be a leader. That does not mean that we do not all need a servant's heart. But that particular teaching was for the disciples that were to become the leaders of the church as it got going. (And for the leaders of the church from that time to today.)

But we read the Bible as if it is generically written to every possible Christian in the same way for every possible purpose. Somehow we think that 1 Corinthians 12, discussing "gifts" is just about certain "spiritual" stuff. And even then we kind of think everything is for me.

So maybe we have no idea how to read the outer darkness metaphor. It could be that it only relates to someone else. But unless we are sure, it is wise to neither toss it aside nor to over-think it. Accept that there is reason to avoid the possible application of out darkness to ourselves. That is the way to deal with it. Rather than try to argue it away, act in such a manner that its "possible" application is not activated.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Okay, I listened to the two shorter videos. One thing these are confirming for me is that there is a difference between the virgins and the bride. The bride is always referred to as singular, but for sometime I've been bothered that the virgins are plural.

First of all, Thank you STG for taking the time to read my thoughts on this topic and for watching the videos

So Matthew 25: says
“Then the kingdom of heaven will be comparable to ten virgins, who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.

Matthew 20:16 says
So the last shall be first, and the first last.”

Jesus came to the Jews first. The 4 gospels are directed to the Jews. But in John 10:16 Jesus tells them I have other sheep, which are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will hear My voice; and they will become one flock with one shepherd.

I never understood who the other sheep were until I began to understand Jesus was talking to the Jews. The Jews were His sheep. The gentiles that would get saved later are the other sheep.

And now Matthew 20:16 made sense to me! The FIRST referred to in this verse are the JEWS. But because they rejected as a whole Jesus as their Messiah, they will miss the rapture and get saved during the tribulation.

Next.. I will start another thread to explain the difference between the Kingdom of Heaven which pertains to the Jews and the Kingdom of God which pertains to all true Blood washed believers.

This will blow away Lee's teaching ( and many other denominational/charismatic teaching) on the thousand year reign.

I always accepted WL's teaching that all the virgins were saved because #1 - they were all virgins waiting for the Bridegroom, and #2 - they all had lamps. (of course WL got the basic teaching from Govett, et.al.) These, to me, are definitely not unbelievers. But, in a Jewish marriage feast the 10 virgins would absolutely NOT be the bride!

Yeah.. well. That has been a lot of our problems.. "Lee taught it and therefore as the -MOTA- or -deputy authority- therefore it had to be true!"

However, I don't know if the virgins are ones coming out of the 3.5 year tribulation as both of the short videos indicate. It is interesting that both these speakers advocate multiple raptures, as Nee and Lee did (again, they got this from others). Multiple raptures is something I've always believed . .

It's just food for thought.. I think he backs it up with scriptures.

With regards to the multiple raptures, I did not know Nee and Lee taught or advocated multiple raptures. I know that when I began to understand the difference between the rapture and the 2nd coming of Christ, I discovered multiple raptures. Let me see if I can list them here by memory:

1) Enoch. Enoch walked with God and was not because God took him.

2) Elijah -- And it came to pass, when the Lord would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind..... As they were going along and talking, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire and horses of fire which separated the two of them. And Elijah went up by a [e]whirlwind to heaven. 12 Elisha saw it (2 Kings 2:1-12)

3) This one should really be #2 but I am going by memory remember? It is also a TYPE of rapture. It is Noah, his family and the animals in the ark. They go up, avoiding the judgement on the earth. Yes they return, but so will we.

4) Jesus at His Resurrection when He tells Mary Magdalene that He has to go up to His Father and not to touch Him. He then returns and appears to His disciples.

4) His Ascension

5) The dead in Christ rising up first, then we who are alive and remain will be caught up with them in the clouds to meet Jesus in the air aka the rapture ( 1 Thessalonians 4:16:17)

6) The 144K in Revelation 14. I believe they are the same ones mentioned in Revelation 7. But I could be wrong.

7) The 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:11-12)

8) and while this scripture does not specifically say people will be raptured, I think they will. I won't give my reasons why here but It is Revelation 14:6
And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, having an eternal gospel to preach to those who live on the earth, and to every nation and tribe and tongue and people;

So, thanks again, Carol, for sharing this!

Your welcome!

QUESTION: Does bro Gene cover the Faithful and unfaithful servants in Matt 25? (I'm still trying to digest his long video and haven't finished it)

Hmm.. I think he does. I'll have to look. I understand what you mean about digesting. I have been studying his teachings as well as Robert Breaker, Charles Lawson and a couple of other teachers on you tube for a few years. I go over their videos because while I pretty much get it, I continue to learn something new and they teach me how to express myself as well. There is another brother whose books have taught me a lot and his name is Clarence Larkin. He passed away in 1925 and was imho way ahead of his time.

Blessings be showered on you STG

Oh.. and btw, there are times I don't agree with everything they say. And I am not a KJ only while they are.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by OBW

First, this is off-topic, but relevant to this one as well as a lot of other things. I caught this in something CMW was saying about something else. . . .

I think that this is true in many more ways. Even if you find these things directed at the Jews of the day, there are other things that are written only for certain parts of current Christians.

You're DA MAN OBW!! Your'e da man!! Yes !! they don't pertain to the Jews nor to the believers of that era.

Without trying to get into all the possibilities, it seems clear to me that Jesus spoke differently to the 12 than to the larger group of regular followers, and to all of them differently than to the crowds (both the curious and those who believed and stayed where they were).

Great insight!!
I'll share what you did not...and try to make it brief!
Jesus chose 12 disciples but of the 12, John was the closest to Him, although I think Peter even though he was scolded a lot was precious to Jesus too.

Jesus liked hanging out with Mary, Martha and Lazurus without the disciples

In Luke 10:1 Jesus appointed 70 and sent them out in pairs

and in Matthew 17:1 Jesus took Peter, James and John to the mountain of transfiguration. Why not the rest of the bunch?

But we read the Bible as if it is generically written to every possible Christian in the same way for every possible purpose.

And that is where 2 Timothy 2:15 comes in:
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth.

So maybe we have no idea how to read the outer darkness metaphor. It could be that it only relates to someone else.

Exactly. The scriptures are written to 3 types of people: Jews, the church and the unsaved. As we seek the Holy Spirit to give us understanding, I believe He will give us clarity. Until this past year, I did not realize that the book of James is written to the 12 tribes of Israel.
vs 1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greetings.

I have read James many times over and here I thought it was written to me as a Christian. Although I do get a lot out of reading James and it has blessed me.

Same with Hebrews. The book is written to the converted HEBREWS! I love Hebrews and though I now realize it is written to the Jews not the converted gentiles per sae, it has helped me alot. How do I / we know it was written to the HEBREWS beside it stating the obvious? What do the non Jewish people, the converted gentiles know about the blood of bulls and goats? The gentiles of that time never read or knew anything about the OT, the sacrifices the Israelites had to make to have their sins forgiven.

Thanks for reading my posts.
Blessings to you and your family.

[OBW]

CMW,

I would be a little careful with seeing Jews v Gentiles in the NT writings from the standpoint of "not written to me." I realize that Paul was heavily providing an underpinning to people who did not already have the background a Jew would have. But that does not make anything written to the Jew, like Hebrews, not for the Gentiles. Especially now. In this day, while we do not start with the learning and practice of the Jews, we do know a lot about it. There is no better evidence of this than our propensity to try to claim every OT promise to Israel to us today.

I realize that Hebrews (maybe James too?) does not seem to fit with so much of the rest of the NT. But that does not make it less meaningful to us. We may have never had a system of animal sacrifices (in this era) but we still try to appease God through otherwise irrelevant activities. I may have never really got the "order of Melchesidek" thing, but Hebrews is still important. Same for James.

But, for example, while we all have a part in evangelism, Jesus did not tell everyone who he appeared to to go into all the world preaching. Nor even the 120. He took the 11 aside and told them. That does not define a hierarchy. But it does follow the notion that they had been trained for 3+ years for a purpose that was not given to every believer.

As for outer darkness, while reading it too literally might be problematic, I would not toss it aside as somehow written to only Jews. Seems that without clearer intent, it would be dangerous to ignore the warnings, even if without understanding the actual impact of what outer darkness represents. And it would be easy to presume from a Calvinist view that it couldn't be a permanent thing. But even that might be better to not presume.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by OBW

CMW,

I would be a little careful with seeing Jews v Gentiles in the NT writings from the standpoint of "not written to me."

I totally agree and understand what you are saying.

Both James and Hebrews speak to me, a 'gentile' and many passages in the OT especially Psalms speak to me. The gospels speak to me. But I am learning through the Spirit how to discern what pertains to the Jews and what pertains to the gentiles and what pertains to both the Jews and Gentiles.

I really appreciate the Holy Spirit revealing God's Word to me/ to us. God raises teachers/pastors as mentioned in Ephesians 4:11 to explain the scriptures to us, but it is the Holy Spirit in us who cautions us not to be tossed to and fro with every wind of doctrine that is out there. And just so you know, I am still learning..I don't have everything 'right'.

Thanks again for your input OBW.

[Sons to Glory!]

Getting the big overview of a book in the Bible has been very helpful to me. What you mentioned, Carol, regarding who James was writing to, and knowing the background was immensely helpful to many of us when we went through his epistle last year! Many, who had somewhat written James off as being all Old Covenant, testified the same thing and got fresh light from James!

The same was true when we went through the book of Revelation. Previously it had been a very mysterious and frightening book to many of us. But after learning a few overview basics, it became the most wonderful book of God's love!

And I can say similar things about Hebrews, which we are just finishing up now. Before, many of us thought of it mainly as a book of warnings, with a few encouraging verses sprinkled here and there. But now, it too has taken on a whole new light - the entire book is a HUGE encouragement!!!

Someone a couple years ago said that anything discouraging is not of the Lord - He is the God of ALL encouragement! I now see that as we receive His light - like in the three books mentioned above - we come to see it is really the most encouraging! PRAISE HIM!!

However, that doesn't mean there is a not a downside for not running the race. As with any goal, there is the potential gain or potential loss.

Therefore, even if the 10 virgins or faithful/unfaithful servants parables in Matthew were not specifically written for gentile believers, there still is certainly some application - which I think is what we (Carol, OBW, me) are saying, right?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

Exactly. The scriptures are written to 3 types of people: Jews, the church and the unsaved.

I think we should take notice that the Bible from cover to cover is a Jewish book, and written by Jewish men.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by awareness

I think we should take notice that the Bible from cover to cover is a Jewish book, and written by Jewish men.

I thought Luke was the only one not a Jew

I found this on him:
Many scholars believe that Luke was a Greek physician who lived in the Greek city of Antioch, Turkey in Ancient Syria, although some other scholars and theologians think Luke was a Hellenic Jew.

But otherwise yes.. the entire bible is a Jewish book which is why I am learning to decipher what is written to the Jews, what is written to the church and what is written to us all.

Here's waving at ya Harold

[UntoHim]

"On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised" (for the uninitiated, who don't actually read the Bible, like Harold, this would be the Non-Jews), just as Peter had been entrusted with the gospel to the circumcised. For he who worked through Peter for his apostolic ministry to the circumcised worked also through me for mine to the Gentiles (oh, just is case Harold was wondering...this would be the Non-Jews) (Galatians 2:7.)

So the dude who wrote about 1/2 the books of the New Testament said his apostolic ministry was to the Gentiles...Non Jews. If the Bible was entirely a "Jewish book" we wouldn't be here on this forum. Harold, Carol, me and the vast majority of us gentiles who were aliened from God would have remained as enemies of God, "separated from Christ, having no hope and without God in the world" (Eph 2:12) Thankfully, God, and the many learned and wise men whom God inspired to assemble the canon of the New Testament, saw fit to make sure that the epistle of the Romans made it into the Holy Scriptures. There the apostle Paul tells us gentiles that we were "grafted in". Praise God for being the ultimate husbandman! Yes, we were without hope and without God, "But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ".(Eph 2:13)

From cover to cover, the Bible is a book about Creation, the Fall, Redemption and Restoration. No, God is not through with mankind yet. (and he ain't done with the Jews yet either) In fact...He's just getting warmed up! My dear friend Harold has forgotten what it means to be a Jew. It is to be one chosen by God, and to be called out by God. Abraham was the first man chosen by God, and called out by God, to initiate a race of redeemed and restored people. God sent his only begotten Son to redeem and to restore - BOTH the Jews and the gentiles.

So, let me finish with Romans: "For all who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law" (Romans 2:12 Nuff Said?
------------------------

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

On the contrary, when they saw that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised (for the uninitiated who don't actually read the Bible, like Harold, this would be the Non-Jews),

But I'm of the circumcised ... therefore I recognize that every book of the Bible was written by Jewish men. There's no way around that.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

But I'm of the circumcised ... therefore I recognize that every book of the Bible was written by Jewish men. There's no way around that.

The way around your comment is acknowledging that Luke wrote 2 of the longest books of the N.T.

[countmeworthy]

So the dude who wrote about 1/2 the books of the New Testament said his apostolic ministry was to the Gentiles...Non Jews. If the Bible was entirely a "Jewish book" we wouldn't be here on this forum. "But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ".(Eph 2:13)

Hi UntoHim.
I believe when Harold said the bible is a Jewish book, he simply meant the bible was written by Jews (Inspired by the Holy Spirit of course). It certainly wasn't and isn't written solely to the Jews. In fact most Jews today follow the Talmud (a collection of tractates, commentaries and high level religious discussions on the meaning of various scriptures) more than they read and follow the Torah.

From cover to cover, the Bible is a book about Creation, the Fall, Redemption and Restoration.

Indeed! Indeed! So true! So true!!

God is not through with mankind yet. (and he ain't done with the Jews yet either) In fact...He's just getting warmed up!

How I thank God He began a good work, in fact a most excellent work in me and in His people and He is going to finish it! (Philippians 1:6)
being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Abraham was the first man chosen by God, and called out by God, to initiate a race of redeemed and restored people. God sent his only begotten Son to redeem and to restore - BOTH the Jews and the gentiles.

What a great reminder! THANK YOU!

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Yeah, that could be. But also I've been seeing that our sense of time is not that good. For instance, everyone says time seems to go quicker the older one gets. This makes sense, because a year to a ten year old is one tenth of their life - seems like a long time. However, to a 60 year old, one year is just 1/60th - relatively speaking not as long. So how does a year seem to someone who is ancient? I suspect it's quite momentary (as in our "momentary light affliction"). The Bible says a man's life is like a fleeting vapor - here and then gone almost immediately. In the Old Testament, for instance, several hundred years passed before God fulfilled the promise to give the children of Israel, captive in Egypt, the good land. So what is even a thousand years then in God's wise timing?

From our perspective, it's a very, very long time. From His perspective, I think it's "quickly."

Actually, there is good scientific basis for the thousand years/one day phenomena. Scientists as eminent as the late great Stephen Hawking in his study of black holes in deep space (I suggest his book "A Brief History of Space and Time"), and even Albert Einstein with his Theory of Relativity, have long contended that Time does not run at the same pace throughout the entire universe.

For example, if you were to travel in a rocket ship to the gravity well of any nearby black hole, the immense forces of gravity at work there would warp the passage of time for you relative to the passage of time on the Earth . In effect, what might pass as five minutes for you near that black hole would parallel the passing of five years on Earth (this is just an illustration; for more accurate calculations consult the NASA website).

Unfortunately, since the nearest black hole is light years away doing an actual experiment is out of the question for now. Plus, black holes not only affect Time, but also bend and trap light waves as well so that they cannot escape; and so any return from such an experiment with our current technology might not be likely. (E = MC squared, when extrapolated, shows a close correlation between the speed of Light and Time)

However, the above limitations notwithstanding, it has been amply demonstrated that Time runs differently EVEN within the Earth's orbit. NASA discovered that Atomic Clocks that spent a considerable period (months) on the International Space Station ticked slower than their counterparts on the surface, albeit by only a few seconds, even though they were initially synchronized to billionths of a second.

All said and done, I find it amazing that a simple, uneducated fisherman living over two thousand years ago knew by faith what we are only discovering now with our advanced instruments and so-called scientific enlightenment. And it is no wonder. Not so long ago, while the whole world believed the Earth to be flat, the oldest book in the Bible, Job, spoke of the 'circle of the earth'. I think the Psalmist, too, points out how the planet is, in fact, round, in much the same words. Simply amazing.

After all, Paul did say that 'the foolishness of God is wiser than men' (1 Cor 1: 25)

Grace to all the believers on here,
I apologize for all the rambling, folks.

GN

[Jay]

One of the things that I hate about this subject is the fact it's so central to the local church culture and behavior. We could even say it's a driving force in the LC. From a very young age my mother was giving me fear with this concept. Which I don't think was good in hindsight. I believe it to some degree damaged my psyche. My older brother also had a large fear of the darkroom and he says it caused psychological damage, and now he doesn't believe God is real. Whether it's part and parcel of a method of control may be or may not be, but for sure it's one of the major themes in the recovery

With that said I believe it's true. It's biblical and makes perfect sense when reading the Bible in context as a whole. But it's something that is so permeated in the recovery that I would say it causes divisions. There are like an "inner circle" of recovery members in probably just about every locality who for whatever reason are more gung ho than the rest. And probably in these ones minds they are the overcomers of that locality. And I've heard brother Lee say as much. He's said that the overcomers are smaller in number and not everyone in the recovery will be an overcomer and etc. Like I said I feel like it's a point of division and judgement. I myself have been judged like this before

I remember one time in Bellevue when I first moved there from Spokane, the elder there at the time (he's since passed) would watch football games at home. And sometimes he would talk about it in the meetings. It was odd to me coming from Spokane because the saints in Spokane were not worldly like that. I think the majority of them didn't even own televisions. And at the time I was of that same mind. I felt like TV was just solely the world. And I still somewhat do feel that way. But also I've since learned a lot about asceticism and have eased up on my feelings about certain things. But to be sure it's definitely the world, and it's definitely worldly programming. It's just all in how you take it in I suppose. But back to the story, so at that time the leading elder was talking about football games, and I heard about it and felt it was odd and in my heart I felt like something was really wrong with that. But I was new to that locality and I was trying to fit in and I remember I tried to talk to this older brother about a football game and he goes "You'll have plenty of time to talk about football in the darkroom." And man did that irk me. I think to this day that's probably the single worst thing anyone in the recovery has ever said to me. It was his tone and the way he said it. And it was just the hypocrisy of that locality that got to me. Here you have elders who watch TV, own TV's, and openly talk about sports after the meetings, and yet you have another brother saying I would go to the darkroom if I watched sports. Crazy

Looking back I realize that there was just a really cliquey culture there and I realized later that the eldership there was wrong on many levels and it affected the young people in certain ways that made them act elitist. It's not that they shunned me totally or anything but just certain behaviors that they had was really elitist and exclusive and I often felt uncomfortable and judged. It was the first time I really experienced a negative church life culture. But that one instance really stood out and I'll never forget that

But yeah it's something that I think is so central to Lee's ministry and so central to the impetus for the entire recovery that kind of all burgeons into the cult like behavior that we all recognize at this point. But it's a true doctrine that unfortunately many in Christianity do not know about for whatever reason. I usually come across two camps of believers in modern Christianity-the camp that believes everyone will be raptured and go directly to heaven. And the camp that thinks a believer can lose their salvation. Sadly neither of these camps are correct. And the latter is extremely damaging. Imagine believing that you can lose your salvation. Think how horrible that concept is to someone who is for instance struggling with sin. Just how much extra energy and pain and suffering, and consternation they must feel believing that. It's very very sad, and there are many out there who not only believe it, but they propagate it. Very troubling

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Jay

One of the things that I hate about this subject is the fact it's so central to the local church culture and behavior. We could even say it's a driving force in the LC. From a very young age my mother was giving me fear with this concept. Which I don't think was good in hindsight. I believe it to some degree damaged my psyche. My older brother also had a large fear of the darkroom and he says it caused psychological damage, and now he doesn't believe God is real. Whether it's part and parcel of a method of control may be or may not be, but for sure it's one of the major themes in the recovery

With that said I believe it's true. It's biblical and makes perfect sense when reading the Bible in context as a whole. But it's something that is so permeated in the recovery that I would say it causes divisions. There are like an "inner circle" of recovery members in probably just about every locality who for whatever reason are more gung ho than the rest. And probably in these ones minds they are the overcomers of that locality. And I've heard brother Lee say as much. He's said that the overcomers are smaller in number and not everyone in the recovery will be an overcomer and etc. Like I said I feel like it's a point of division and judgement. I myself have been judged like this before

I remember one time in Bellevue when I first moved there from Spokane, the elder there at the time (he's since passed) would watch football games at home. And sometimes he would talk about it in the meetings. It was odd to me coming from Spokane because the saints in Spokane were not worldly like that. I think the majority of them didn't even own televisions. And at the time I was of that same mind. I felt like TV was just solely the world. And I still somewhat do feel that way. But also I've since learned a lot about asceticism and have eased up on my feelings about certain things. But to be sure it's definitely the world, and it's definitely worldly programming. It's just all in how you take it in I suppose. But back to the story, so at that time the leading elder was talking about football games, and I heard about it and felt it was odd and in my heart I felt like something was really wrong with that. But I was new to that locality and I was trying to fit in and I remember I tried to talk to this older brother about a football game and he goes "You'll have plenty of time to talk about football in the darkroom." And man did that irk me. I think to this day that's probably the single worst thing anyone in the recovery has ever said to me. It was his tone and the way he said it. And it was just the hypocrisy of that locality that got to me. Here you have elders who watch TV, own TV's, and openly talk about sports after the meetings, and yet you have another brother saying I would go to the darkroom if I watched sports. Crazy

Looking back I realize that there was just a really cliquey culture there and I realized later that the eldership there was wrong on many levels and it affected the young people in certain ways that made them act elitist. It's not that they shunned me totally or anything but just certain behaviors that they had was really elitist and exclusive and I often felt uncomfortable and judged. It was the first time I really experienced a negative church life culture. But that one instance really stood out and I'll never forget that

But yeah it's something that I think is so central to Lee's ministry and so central to the impetus for the entire recovery that kind of all burgeons into the cult like behavior that we all recognize at this point. But it's a true doctrine that unfortunately many in Christianity do not know about for whatever reason. I usually come across two camps of believers in modern Christianity-the camp that believes everyone will be raptured and go directly to heaven. And the camp that thinks a believer can lose their salvation. Sadly neither of these camps are correct. And the latter is extremely damaging. Imagine believing that you can lose your salvation. Think how horrible that concept is to someone who is for instance struggling with sin. Just how much extra energy and pain and suffering, and consternation they must feel believing that. It's very very sad, and there are many out there who not only believe it, but they propagate it. Very troubling

I would the combination of 1000 years outer darkness/being on overcomer is too much an emphasis in the local churches. I'd agree it is a driving force in the LC. Brothers and sisters lose sight of loving for today, taking care of relationships, etc.
I get what you're saying about Bellevue. I've been there. In the many prophesying meetings I attended, I can only recall one brother who had no shame exposing his soul life. Everyone else there was a lot of pretention.
Pretending we didn't have a soul life. Was it coincidental, that on Superbowl Sunday the lead elder would boo hoo churches that advertise watch the super bowl the afternoon following service? In the local churches, we were more private about that sort of thing. Superbowl Sunday 1996, I only remember that because it was the last time the Cowboys won a super bowl. One of the brothers in Bellevue was hosting a Superbowl party. For myself, living in the brother's house we didn't have a tv. If I wanted to watch a sporting event, I'd go to my uncle's home or another brother's home. However when we came to the meeting, there was no such talk what we enjoyed to do. So worldly. So soulish. Be in your spirit brother/sister.

I loved baseball, football, basketball. Didn't need a tv. A radio worked just fine. That goes back to my childhood. For the first few years living in Anaheim, my parents didn't have a tv and my dad enjoys sports. Our bonding time came from listening to Dodger games on the radio.

I really think serving ones do a disservice to the young children they're serving. They put fear into them with the focus on 1000 outer darkness, the gnashing of teeth versus being an overcomer. You don't want to miss out on the wedding feast.
When it comes down to it, everyone has a soul life and trying to live in denial is damaging. That's how I see churchkids being nurtured from an early age. They get programmed trying to be something they're not. If you cannot be a young brother/young sister who can buy into "Overcoming" 100%, there is going to be personal suffering.

[Jay]

Originally Posted by TLFisher

I would the combination of 1000 years outer darkness/being on overcomer is too much an emphasis in the local churches. I'd agree it is a driving force in the LC. Brothers and sisters lose sight of loving for today, taking care of relationships, etc.
I get what you're saying about Bellevue. I've been there. In the many prophesying meetings I attended, I can only recall one brother who had no shame exposing his soul life. Everyone else there was a lot of pretention.
Pretending we didn't have a soul life. Was it coincidental, that on Superbowl Sunday the lead elder would boo hoo churches that advertise watch the super bowl the afternoon following service? In the local churches, we were more private about that sort of thing. Superbowl Sunday 1996, I only remember that because it was the last time the Cowboys won a super bowl. One of the brothers in Bellevue was hosting a Superbowl party. For myself, living in the brother's house we didn't have a tv. If I wanted to watch a sporting event, I'd go to my uncle's home or another brother's home. However when we came to the meeting, there was no such talk what we enjoyed to do. So worldly. So soulish. Be in your spirit brother/sister.

I loved baseball, football, basketball. Didn't need a tv. A radio worked just fine. That goes back to my childhood. For the first few years living in Anaheim, my parents didn't have a tv and my dad enjoys sports. Our bonding time came from listening to Dodger games on the radio.

I really think serving ones do a disservice to the young children they're serving. They put fear into them with the focus on 1000 outer darkness, the gnashing of teeth versus being an overcomer. You don't want to miss out on the wedding feast.
When it comes down to it, everyone has a soul life and trying to live in denial is damaging. That's how I see churchkids being nurtured from an early age. They get programmed trying to be something they're not. If you cannot be a young brother/young sister who can buy into "Overcoming" 100%, there is going to be personal suffering.

Yeah solid points. For sure we all have a soul life and we all partake of things to find happiness and contentment for our souls, to whatever degree. Even Paul alludes to this in one particular verse that I just can't remember right now. But it's something along the lines of 'even you care for your own souls' or something like that. It's also interesting to note that many times the Bible uses the word soul in different lights. sometimes it's in a good light such as a verse that says something like 'you preserve your souls to live for God' or something like that which kind of is talking about the soul as in the entire person. And then other verses the soul is used in a negative light, where Jesus says something like 'he who loses his soul life will find it.' Which if you understand the context of that verse he's basically saying the soul is fallen and corrupted and we need to deny it for this reason

At any rate I believe there's a fine line between denying the soul life and asceticism. And many times that line is very very blurry, and easily can be crossed over into legalism/asceticism as opposed to self denial. I suppose that's why they often say in the recovery that 'the cross is in the spirit.' which is a fantastic maxim that helped me a great deal when I was young and trying to forsake the world by throwing out all of my belongings. But I think that we can't deny our soul life by our own efforts. That's like using the soul to deny the soul, which is kind of where Paul was in Romans 7. But then in Romans 8 he tells us to use the soul to turn to the spirit. Particularly the will and mind. He's basically just saying "exercise your spirit, and do it by using the soul to get into the spirit." Then there's other concepts such as the spirit saturating the soul which is how we become transformed. And verses such as 'you have the mind of Christ' and 'be transformed by the renewing of the mind' and 'that Christ may make his home in your hearts through faith.' These verses are all strong indications that transformation takes place in our soul (mind, emotion, will)



But I think the better message as opposed to "you'll go to the darkroom if you do such and such thing," is "turn to your spirit and enjoy the Lord as much as possible and don't worry about the stuff that you can't change right now." Which I have heard many in the recovery also say in not so many words. But it's difficult because satan comes in to attack using our fallen conscience and we start feeling bad over things that God doesn't even care about. I feel like God cares more about us turning to our spirit than giving up certain things and going cold turkey for consecration. I also think a lot of young people fall into the mistake of being too extreme and it causes pain and suffering when they backslide. Which is why a solid healthy message is another recovery maxim- "you're where you're at until you're somewhere different." Which basically just alludes to the fact that transformation takes time and it won't happen by throwing out all of your belongings that may or may not be worldly, and to be comfortable and content in your station in life and not try to be overcomers without Christ. Only Christ can be the overcomer within us. And only by his life can we overcome. Otherwise we're just trying to fulfill the law through self effort, which is another huge mistake that many Christians make, even Paul

But with that said there for sure are things that do need to be tossed into the bin. And just frankly speaking when I was in Spokane they really had a lot of enjoyment of the Lord and a living out of the spirit, and in my estimation it was largely due to their corporately making strong efforts to forsake the world and give it up. And I've also often wondered if one of the major problems of Bellevue was because the leader there was kind of hypocritical in that he was often in his soul, and when I heard him talking about football like that after a meeting was over when everyone was still at the hall, and I think he even invited everyone over for a super bowl party like you said, that just never sat right with me

I think what we do behind closed doors is between us and God but to take that stuff into the church could stumble others. But I think in Spokane they really lived it, they didn't just talk the talk, they had really left the world in a real practical way in their personal lives, and I always respected that and feel it was a large reason they had so much life and love. There were times when they would just exude God and didn't even know it. I remember when I first started meeting with them when I was around twenty-one I felt like they just were permeated with the spirit of God, to such an extent that I felt like I could SEE GOD in them and their expressions. That was one of the biggest things in my life that confirmed the reality of God and confirmed that some in the recovery are really really close to God and God is with them