RE: Open Letter - Dear Saints in the Lord's Recovery - Joann Casteel

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As Publicly Posted at:
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Original Google Document Here

Dear Saints in the Lord’s Recovery,

Greg and I have some very important things to share with you regarding our journey with the Lord’s recovery.

This is one of the most difficult things we have ever had to do and we want you to know before you even read this letter how much we love you and how much we hope to have you in our lives.

The point of this letter is to let you know that we can no longer be a part of the system of the Lord’s recovery.

I know that straight out of the gate the fact I am saying we are leaving the Lord’s recovery is bringing up very strong feelings for you.

Perhaps these are some of those feelings: “How can you leave? There’s nowhere else to go. The Lord is going to judge you for not keeping the oneness. You are leprous. You are rebellious. You must have some kind of unfulfilled ambition. There’s no other way to meet. We have the right way and the only way according to the Bible. Once you see the vision you are kept by the vision. You are casting off all restraint. There’s nowhere else to go. How can you go to poor, pitiful, degraded Christianity? We are Philadelphia. You can’t go to Sardis. If you leave, you will lose the kingdom reward. If you leave, you will lose everything. We are wrecked for this way. We are ruined for this way.”

The list goes on, but those are a few common examples that we think when others leave. I know, because I have thought, heard, and believed many of those things my entire life about others who left.

Before I get into our journey through the Lord’s recovery, I’d like to review my background in it for you. Not that I have to qualify myself, but oftentimes when people leave there’s a thought, “they were hardly even in the church life” or “they were only in for a few years. They must not have seen the vision. They must not have seen the Body.” It truly doesn’t matter if you were in it for 5 minutes or 50 years, but from the viewpoint of it mattering to those who are in, I would like to tell you where I am coming from.

I’m 38 years old and I have been in the church life my entire life. I’m a church-kid. I spent my whole life in this way. I have read much of the ministry, been to the FTTA for two years and migrated to a GTCA city for this way. I had a controlling vision of Christ and the church and that we meet according to the ground of the oneness with only one church in one city. That vision combined with the fear that I had nowhere else to go and all the other feelings I listed earlier is what has kept me up until now.

So how do you get from seeing a vision of having the only way to meet according to the Bible and being in the heart of what God is doing to being willing to leave? How do you get from seeing a controlling vision all the way to being willing to no longer meet with the local churches?

I know that you are probably recoiling in horror that I could leave. Some other thoughts you might be having are, “How can you abandon the one speaking? What about Brother Lee? He was the minister of the age and the wise master builder. He was the oracle of God. He unlocked the Bible for us. He unlocked the truths for us. We have received the riches from him and just need to get into it. You just need to eat more Christ in the ministry. You must not have enough of a vision. You are not being faithful to Brother Lee. We owe him everything. You must not be living in your spirit. You must not be denying the self.” The list goes on here as well.

I also felt all of these things. I loved Brother Lee very much. I had been raised to believe that there was no need to read any other spiritual authors out there. That Nee and Lee had done all the work for us. They both were very intelligent and had an incredible ability from God to weed out what was bad and keep what was good. They could sense what was life and what was death. They had already gone through anything that could be read about Christianity and had combined all the best points for our practice together. We were standing on the shoulders of those who had gone before us.

I mainly read Nee and Lee as Christian authors my entire life. From time to time I would take a peek at other authors, but considered their teachings too low and part of degraded Christianity. Besides, Brother Lee had done all the work for us and I just needed to get into the riches. Also, I didn’t trust myself to be able to discern what others interpreted about God, so the safest way was to just read Nee and Lee. Some authors like Darby were approved by our group, but I never had time for anyone else as I was on multiple reading schedules of Nee and Lee. I also never considered I had a need for anyone else as I already had the best of the best. Brother Lee had received incredible light and revelation from the Lord and had seen the top vision of God’s economy and the High Peak of the Divine Revelation.

Most saints felt that they owed Brother Lee everything. Brother Lee said he gave everything for this way. He was one of the most pure believers on earth and this was embodied in his reported last word of “sacrifice.” His tombstone says “a bondslave of Jesus Christ” having followed only Christ His entire life. Brother Lee and the collective term “the brothers” were considered to be infallible.

Brother Lee was even held in such high regard that we exhumed his body in 2004, nearly seven years after he died in 1997 (http://bit.ly/ReburiedBrotherLee) and moved him to Grace Terrace, a multi-million dollar graveyard purchased for and by the saints so the saints would not have to be buried with Christians from Christianity. In the “Fellowship Concerning Grace Terrace” video we said that, “the saints would not have to be buried in cemeteries that have all kinds of evil things there, and worldly things, religious things which are mostly worldly, but that the recovery could have something set aside for its own behalf” (http://bit.ly/FellowshipConcerningGraceTerrace).

I also felt I had the best of the best in terms of pursuit of the Lord. I knew what God’s economy was and I knew what His heart’s purpose was. I was with a group of believers who loved Jesus, loved the pure Word, and loved God’s people. We practiced only according to the Bible, nothing else. All the Christians out there were a part of something called Christendom that was fallen and degraded. We were completely separate from that. I believed that God had something called His “recovery” where through time He was recovering principles and truths that had been lost. Brother Lee had recovered all the major truths in the Bible. We were being inwardly recovered to how the early church was practiced in the New Testament. I believed that the Lord’s recovery was not a movement that you could join, but a state of being. Christianity had failed God as a whole and God was recovering a group of people who would be the ones to bring Him back.

I felt blessed and happy to be a part of the extremely tiny percentage of God’s people who would be the ones to bring Him back. I was happy that other Christians were “saved” but I needed to spend my entire life with the saints (meaning my group of people, not all of God’s people) working out my salvation with fear and trembling towards the Millennial Kingdom. We didn’t refer to the Millennial Kingdom as a second salvation, but the kingdom reward could be lost in a moment. Everything I did was towards the goal of building the church, preparing the Bride, bringing Christ back and gaining the reward of the millennial kingdom. God could only accomplish these things through the Recovery and we were the only Christians that knew about this way. Our job was to propagate the high gospel, not the low gospel, and once the high gospel had been preached to all the nations, the Lord would come.

I would not listen to anything other Christians had to say about our group because they were blind and in darkness. They didn’t see the truth in the Bible and they didn’t understand the vision that Brother Lee had. The enemy was fighting tooth and nail the High Peak of the Divine Revelation and others calling us heretical, divisive, and a cult showed and proved that Satan and the gates of Hades were fighting against the builded church. Christianity was fully leavened, full of mixture, fallen, degraded, and had nothing to offer us.They had the fallen and degraded clergy-laity system and we had “all can function” and full-timers. They had the pastoral system and we had no pastors and “all saints can prophesy.” They had denominated themselves and taken a name and we only met according to how the Bible said we should with only one church in a city.

They had been thoroughly leavened and we were unleavened and pure. They were building with wood, hay, and stubble and we were building with gold, silver, and precious stones. They had ambitious leaders who just wanted the attendance numbers and the congregation’s money and we had the minister of the age who had given us all the high truths and only cared for God’s economy. They were in a state of complete and utter degradation and we were being recovered. They just showed up on Sunday with the same things being repeated each week and their ears being tickled and we were constantly going higher, deeper, and further in the truth. They had no idea what their purpose in life was, but we knew the mystery of our human life. They were narrow and secluded, but we were general and accepting of all believers. They were floundering and purposeless, but we were part of the recovery of God’s heart’s purpose.

I believed we had the very best way to pursue God and I gave myself completely without reservation to Brother Lee and the brothers my entire life. I 100% opened myself to this man and his ministry. I absorbed what he said as the truth and believed it to be the truth. I did this for years all throughout my twenties and thirties. I gave myself to go to the FTTA for an entire two years to study his ministry. The volume of reading in the training was astronomical with the time allotted, but I did it. I left with an even more solidified vision of what God was doing on the earth today. They told us in the training that they were training an army that could be activated at any time. I cried the last time I took off my training uniform and consecrated myself to God saying “may I never take off Your uniform. May I always serve You and be in Your army.” Greg and I got our uniforms dry-cleaned for a final time after we graduated and have had them hanging in the front of our closet. We have seen our uniforms every day for the last 7 years as a reminder that we are a part of the Lord’s army.

From time to time I had theological questions about God and even questions about things brother Nee and Lee would write. I filed them away in a question box in my mind and would love it when a question would get answered years later through fellowship, a message spoken, or in the ministry reading. The volume of Nee and Lee’s teachings was vast and I had goals of spending my entire life getting into the riches and understanding them. The ministry materials were like an ever-expanding maze that I wanted to spend my life figuring out and understanding. I understood what types of questions were ok to ask with us and what types of questions were not tolerated among us. One could ask general questions about God, but one could not disagree with the brother’s teachings.

From the time I was very young I knew the horrific things that would happen to me if I deviated from this way. As a young person I was told that we would become like Belshazzar in Daniel 4:33 if we went against this way. Belshazzar ate grass like an oxen, grew nails like bird claws, and lost his mind. I knew if you left this way you would come to nothing, become a man of death, and as I read recently in a ministry magazine that I “will even become death” (“The Ministry of the Word,” “The Overcomers,” Living Stream Ministry, Anaheim, CA, 2012, p. 69).

I was terribly afraid of becoming leprous, an ugly and horrific disease. I learned about deputy authority from the time I was a child and that going against anyone in a position of authority was going against the acting God on earth regardless of if they were right or wrong. As an adult, when I had questions about some of our practices, I would whisper about it with my husband behind closed doors while worrying that the ground was going to figuratively open up and swallow me up like those of the rebellion of Korah (Numbers 16). I spent my entire lifetime eaten up with crippling anxiety and severe depression over the questions and feelings I had inwardly.

I saw many of our practices in the local churches not matching up with the Bible or even Nee and Lee’s teachings. I thought the God-Ordained Way was our only and best hope. That Satan had been fighting the new way for years and if only the saints would enter into it, that the system would somehow be reformed. I also knew from the ministry that God had to call the overcomers from Philadelphia and that as a whole the church would fail God and He needed to raise up the overcomers who would represent Him.

Greg and I wrestled intensely with pursuing the Lord after the FTTA. We felt to be quiet, hidden members who were fighting for His interest behind the scenes. I had weekly phone prayer appointments with sisters from various localities on the phone and read the ministry with fervor, finishing book after book. Recently I read the entire resumption portion of Watchman Nee’s collected works (approximately 4,500 pages in 16 volumes). I also read through multiple other titles of Nee and Lee as well as many ministry magazines with the “up-to-date speaking.”

As we continued pursuing the Lord, Greg and I increasingly had more and more questions about our practices and things the Lord’s recovery did that did not line up with the Bible. We knew we couldn’t question Brother Lee or “the brothers” to anyone as our fear of being labeled negative and divisive were too great. We repeatedly heard about the rebellions against Brother Lee throughout the years and the consequence of being quarantined and excommunicated. The ministry continually confirmed that having a thought that was against the brothers was criticism, negative, and divisive. I felt like I had nowhere else to go because of the ground of the church and as a consequence I felt trapped.

I was “wrecked” and “ruined” for the church life and “keeping the oneness” ruled my entire life.

After reading umpteen ministry books to try to find answers and more piled up as future “to reads” Greg and I also started reading the Bible in a consecutive way in the spring of 2015. We set up a schedule where we would read through the New Testament every 6 months. We are now on our 9th time of doing this. In 2018 we added reading through the Old Testament one time per year.

Something started to shift in us every time we read through the Bible. We started comparing what the Bible actually had to say as compared to what the ministry said. The more we read the Bible, the more questions we had related to our practices in the Lord’s recovery. The more I wanted to line up with God’s Word and follow His leading, the more I realized the system I was in did not allow that.

One Lord’s Day in 2016 we had a Lord’s Day meeting in our home. Due to safety concerns with icy weather, the brothers had the saints meet in a couple of different homes that day. During the prophesying time, Greg shared that we were enjoying reading the Bible using the Bibles for America scheduling website. As he shared this, a leading brother in our locality interrupted him, held up his hand in the air for Greg to stop speaking, and said, “we are not here for that. We do not promote that kind of thing.” That exact same leading brother months later in another Lord’s Day meeting told the saints about the app they could download and set up recurring monetary donations through to support the Lord’s work said, “I would promote this kind of thing.”

After that Lord’s Day meeting ended where the brother said “we are not here for that…” and everyone had left, Greg and I looked at each other in stunned silence that a leading brother among us would not want us to be talking about reading the Bible. When we discussed reading Brother Lee and all the saints had their reading scheduled via the Holy Word for Morning Revival it was wonderful, but when we discussed having a reading schedule for the Word of God, we were promoting something.

We knew something was inherently wrong with the Lord’s recovery, but we didn’t understand what.

We continued on in the church life. A team had been started in our locality close to the time of us moving there. We even bought a house that prioritized having a good layout for the saints and new ones over some of our own family’s needs. When we moved we were ready and eager to enter into the work of taking care of new ones from the campus. We soon learned that our locality was “taking the slow way” approach modeled after the church in Lubbock, TX and that the community saints were not to be involved in the new ones direct care. The slow way in our locality involved using the King James Version with the new ones rather than using the Recovery Version. It also involved slowly introducing carefully selected LSM excerpts from Witness Lee that left out many controversial matters and did not cite the source, leaving out Witness Lee’s name and the publisher, Living Stream Ministry. Witness Lee’s name and LSM would be introduced at a certain point once the new ones were “ready."

We pondered the fact that LSM endorses not properly citing works in the name of gaining new ones considering that LSM itself says, “Any quotation taken from LSM publications should be given a proper citation” http://bit.ly/LSMCopyrightPolicy.

In our locality, only the full-timers and saints specifically handpicked were to have interaction with the new ones. The main way the local saints could be involved was making food for the new ones and dropping it off on the campus. Prayer was encouraged as the primary means to take part in God’s move. There were specific instructions included in the e-mails as to what words you could and couldn’t use with the new ones when you dropped off the food. The rules were too much of a burden for us to follow, so we opted out of cooking for the group. Since this was the main way to “serve” with the new ones, this left us and many other saints out of feeling like we had a function with the new ones. Here’s an excerpt from one e-mail I received regarding our slow way approach:

“Based on the fellowship shared last Lord's day and since we are touching new contacts on campus that have not been to any church meetings and have had limited contact with any saints outside the Bible study, let us be exercised and sensitive if and when we interact with them. Certain practices and terminology have not been introduced openly to the group, but will be in time, either in the small groups or home meetings. For example, the opening prayer for the time is not filled with "amens", the students are not familiar with term "saints," "church life" or "locality" yet. We pray through our service during this time many will come into our homes and into the church life.”

Eventually, I was asked at a certain point if I wanted to help on the campus, but was too worried about saying or doing the wrong thing with the slow way approach and ended up declining. Greg and I continued pursuing the Lord while quietly observing the situation of the Lord’s recovery.

We wondered, how are the full-timers any different than the clergy-laity system? We are paying a special class of people that have gone to a special training school to do God’s work.

We wondered, how are the blended brothers who travel the world speaking any different than a group of pastors? We are paying a group of men to head up God’s work.

We started to realize that the vast majority of what we say is actually the opposite of what we do and a matter of semantics.

We say that there is no position for you in the church life but really there are local positions, regional positions, and top of the rank positions.

We say that we don’t have politics but there is constant politicking and maneuvering by the leadership and those aspiring to the leadership.

We say that we have no headquarters but all the leadership is lined up under a 501(c)(3) non-profit corporation called Living Stream Ministry (LSM) in Anaheim, California that has 12 people on its board of directors headed up by a President.

We say we don’t have organization but there is an entire organizational hierarchy with LSM over the local churches.

We say all can prophesy but that really means all can repeat only the things from the ministry for a couple of short minutes on the Lord’s Day.

We say that we only love Jesus, but we hold on to a different man who is the minister of the age and the oracle of God.

We say that we only hold onto the pure Word, but we hold on to the “pure” interpreted Word and all the words another man and “the brothers” say.

We say that we love God’s people, but actually only love “the saints” who are a minuscule fraction of a percentage of Christians across time.

We say that we are general and inclusive of all believers, but we excommunicate and quarantine you if you don’t follow Witness Lee.

I progressively felt trapped in a system that I couldn’t fully understand. We felt that our only hope was to be an overcomer in the midst of the degraded situation. I prayed for grace and mercy to be an overcomer. I increasingly fell into a spiral of worry and fear regarding our questions. I had been led to believe that I was being judged by God with having health issues for having questions. Even if outwardly I was conformed and meeting with the saints, the mere fact I had questions meant I was going against this way. I felt critical and divisive for wondering about these things.

My personal relationship with God declined in this system. I spent much time praying, trying to exercise my spirit and denying myself, but my conscience was so bothered by all the problems I was seeing in the church life. I could do nothing but grieve and mourn for the situation among the Lord’s recovery. On one hand I was confused and brokenhearted about the condition of the saints and the leadership, but on the other hand I was wracked with guilt for those very same feelings considering them to be divisive and negative. Every negative thing that happened in my life I was led to believe was God’s judgment for my feelings about the brothers. If my child was crying instead of playing quietly it was because God didn’t want me to have any peace due to my negative thoughts. If our car broke down and needed repair work, it meant we were being judged. If my health declined, it was because God was judging my divisiveness. Everything in my daily life became a judgement and curse from God.

It eventually led me to hating this God who was so horrifically judgmental and harsh.

Even though I would confess that I had negative thoughts about the saints, I would have another question one second later and have to repeat the cycle of questioning and confessing to no end. I constantly worried about every aspect of my life believing that like Job, God would take away my children, husband, and finances as a judgment and eventually my own life. I lived in a chronically depressed and debilitated state, having no way to go on with God in any meaningful way. Tiny crumbs of “light” in the ministry were all that really sustained me for years. In my personal journal I would record these bits of light so I could read over them in my darkest hours.

My own husband didn’t fully understand the depth of my despair as he had not been raised in this way. I often felt completely alone on this entire earth. I had times of literally crying myself to sleep I was so miserable just as a human being and as a child of God.

After the birth of our second child at the end of 2018 I spiraled even deeper into depression. I became very sick with postpartum preeclampsia and had to be hospitalized multiple times and ended up in the ICU at one point. Some saints who were in another locality told me that a leading brother there said my health problems were due to God’s judgment for something they did. When I heard that, I felt cursed and like there was no escape from God’s wrath and judgment. I was already cursed from my own life and I also had the generational curses from “the fathers” to follow me. Learning about what that leading brother said led to me ultimately becoming suicidal. I felt that no matter what I did, I was cursed from God. I had to form a safety plan with my husband of if I couldn’t keep myself safe I would reach out for him to check me in to somewhere. There was no way the judgment would ever end and I wanted my life to end to stop this never-ending despair.

I felt helpless and hopeless about my entire life and so many other saints I saw suffering.

I observed saint after saint being wronged. The ones who wronged them were allowed to keep their leadership positions and life moved on as if nothing happened. Any type of speaking up was considered to be critical, divisive, and gossip. We had to keep the sins of our fathers hidden like Noah’s sons who covered his nakedness or else we would be cursed and judged.

A sister I knew was sexually assaulted by an elder and nothing was done about it. She was forced to move away from the locality because she could not bear being with the perpetrator in the meetings. The elder retained his position in that locality and the other elders would not even tell the perpetrator’s wife that he had assaulted another sister.

Another sister I knew was being physically, sexually, and verbally abused by her husband but who could not tell anyone about it. She has been in that abusive relationship for 20 plus years now and her husband sits through the meetings and takes the Lord’s table.

I knew of a brother accused of sexually molesting two of his own children who was allowed to continue being an elder and in a leadership position with the young people.

I knew of young people who had been sexually molested by their young people’s workers and it had all been covered up.

The amount of church kids I knew that had been physically and psychologically abused while growing up was astounding. I knew of church kids who had been kicked and slapped, and many who underwent beatings that involved getting bleeding welts all the way from the neck to the ankles. Countless cases of severe physical abuse in the name of God and “breaking the will.”

For a group that was supposed to be Philadelphia, meaning brotherly love, our group had very little meaningful love for one another. And we certainly weren’t loving towards those outside of us. For a group that was supposed to be so inclusive, we were one of the most exclusive groups I could imagine.

Greg and I would constantly ask each other in the face of all the doublespeak we saw, “how do we go on? How do we go on?” Our best answer was the degradation of the church and the need for the overcomers, but that answer still did not satisfy a deep inner need.

In April of this year I read through the “Ministry of the Word” magazine (“The Ministry of the Word,” “The Overcomers,” Volume 16, Number 12, December 2012) on the overcomers in Thyatira, Sardis, and Philadelphia. Regarding the Roman Catholic Church I read on page 14,

“They may not come out of her into the Lord’s recovery. The Lord may not intend for them to come out…”

I about fell out of my chair the moment I read that. We have always been told that the Lord’s recovery is not a movement and that any believer anywhere could be in the Lord’s recovery. The sentence of not coming into the Lord’s recovery made it very clear that it actually was a movement that you could “come out of” and “into.” If recovery was something that the Lord was doing inwardly amongst all Christians, it wasn’t something you could “come out of” and “into.” Making the Lord’s recovery a movement was repeated on page 29,

“we are not narrow, saying that the overcomers are only in the Lord’s recovery.”

So, the Lord has overcomers amongst all Christians, but somehow their inner being is not being recovered? How could they be an overcomer then?

I believed in the Lord’s recovery as a process that any Christian could be a part of, even if they weren’t meeting with us. I was completely dismayed to see that when we say the Lord’s Recovery we mean only those meeting with us. That we believe that you can’t be part of the Lord’s recovery wherever you are meeting was eye-opening for me.

I continued reading the ministry magazine over a couple of weeks, putting my questions into the ever-expanding “question box” in my mind.

When I got to page 69, I read about a past rebellion we had among us. It said,

“In the Fermentation of the Present Rebellion Brother Lee records his speaking in a time of fellowship that helped us to be recovered out of the last rebellion. We have observed in our history that natural affection and death are absolutely related. This is why a Nazarite was forbidden to touch anything dead. He was not permitted to touch even the corpse of a close relative and thereby allow their death to pass on to him. If some who are close to us are in deadness, we may allow their death to pass on to us because of our natural affection for them. This is serious. We saw in the last rebellion that even co-workers can be deadened. We should not think that anyone is immune. One among those with whom we serve could be in death. If we then maintain our relationship with him by natural affection, we will allow his death to pass on to us. As a result, we will become deadened, and we will even become death.”

As I read, “we will even become death” I had a shiver go down my spine and I identified for the first time in my life, something that happened to me over and over again while reading the ministry, attending the conferences, and listening to the ministry messages.

FEAR.

Severe, debilitating, crippling, and suffocating fear. I didn’t fully understand what I was afraid of. I just knew that I lived a life filled with anxiety, guilt, and fear. I did know that I was very afraid of becoming death itself and I was afraid of having contact with anyone who was dead.

I continued reading.

On page 74 and 75 I read,

“We should have a submissive intention and standing in every way. We should submit to the Lord and to one another. We should especially learn to submit to God’s deputy authority…The deputy authorities in the church are the elders. We must obey God’s deputy authority, whoever or whatever they are.”

On page 76 it said,

“Related to the matter of death, we need to realize that in the same way that there is a trash can in every home, there are negative elements in every church. The “trash can” is the gossip, murmurings, and criticisms, whether they are true or not. Whether it is false trash or true trash, it is still trash. In the same way we should not criticize the elders or the saints in our local church and for sure we should not speak any criticism to others. When we are in the realm of right and wrong, spontaneously there will be criticisms.”

Something clicked in me. I was able to identify the cause of my intense fear. I had been led to believe that by fellowshipping with my husband about the problems in the church, I was gossiping, murmuring, and criticizing and thus going against God’s deputy authority. I knew from the ministry that God’s deputy authority was the acting God on earth and had been led to believe that by asking my husband about problems I saw that I was going against God Himself.

I had been taught this from the time I was a young child. That any type of thinking that could be considered gossiping, murmuring, and criticizing led to all kinds of spiritual judgment.

Page 97 of the ministry magazine even spelled out what would happen to you if you went against Witness Lee’s teachings:

“…We celebrated the completion of the life-study of the Bible through Brother’s Lee’s speaking and the burden of the of the interpreted word, not merely the written Word. The word that we need to keep is not only the written Word that we study, read, and pray-read but also the proper interpretation of the Word. We boldly declare that this interpretation is to be found in the footnotes and the outline of the Recovery Version and the Life-study messages. If we do not pay proper attention to the interpreted Word as the opener of the written Word, we will lose everything eventually. Many saints who have passed through my heart, through my house, and through the church have eventually lost everything.”

I realized now why I was constantly afraid of losing everything including my children, my husband, my business, etc. If I had any questions about Brother Lee’s interpretations and “the brothers” speaking (which I did), we were told over and over through the ministry we could lose everything. Of course “losing everything” was left up to the interpretation of the mind of the reader.

I was in a constant cycle of fear, guilt, and anxiety. For example, a leading brother in our locality “prophesied” one day in the Lord’s Day meeting and told us that God did not need our love. That God needs our service and our time, but not our love. Everyone around was giving this leading one loud “amens” and nodding their heads in affirmation but I had a massive different feeling in my being that said, “God is love! Our whole relationship with God should be based on love!” I could not say amen to what he was saying.

As I talked with my husband about it after the meeting I was terrified by the fact I was going against God’s deputy authority. I would confess to the Lord my sin of being critical and negative and feel that I was an evil person for having those thoughts about my brother. I would then think the thoughts again about God being love and realize I was criticizing and not “thinking the same thing” again and the cycle of guilt and repentance would repeat itself.

And not only was I afraid of losing my relationship with God over my thoughts, I was eaten up with fear of God’s judgment on me over having these thoughts. I constantly worried about God bringing me to naught and causing me to lose everything for not “keeping the oneness.”

As if the stakes weren’t high enough regarding keeping the oneness and never being divisive (meaning no gossiping, murmuring, or complaining even if the things are true), there was also the fear of losing the kingdom reward. I had spent my whole life working towards this kingdom reward and it could be lost in a second.

Page 122 and 123 of that ministry magazine said,

“One of the biggest problems in the church life is the taking account of evil…It is a serious matter to be offended. If we take offense with someone and never forgive that person from our heart, we will lose the kingdom. How serious it is to be offended! Regretfully, there have been some who actually kept a written record of offenses. This is very serious. That may cause them to be in the outer darkness for a thousand years.”

I worried that due to my thoughts against this leading one who said God doesn’t need our love I was going to lose the kingdom reward. I wanted to forgive him from my heart, but what he was speaking was against the God of the Bible I knew and I could not honestly “forgive” him as much as I wanted to. If I was to die with this unforgiven offense, according to the ministry I would lose the kingdom and be in outer darkness for a thousand years.

My experience in reading through the ministry through the years was that the more I read, the more sick I became. The more I took in, the greater and stronger my mental prison became. I only became more depressed, guilty, afraid, and anxious rather than becoming more freed.

Fear even dominated our financial giving. I read in the “Material Offerings and the Lord’s Move Today” HWMR (“Material Offerings and the Lord’s Move Today” The Holy Word for Morning Revival,” Watchman Nee and Witness Lee, 1999, Anaheim, California, pp. 2-69),

“Deliverance from mammon is a part of our salvation…In order for a man to receive eternal life, the kingdom, and salvation he has to be delivered from mammon and to dispose of everything…We must deal with money in an absolute way. Before the Lord, we must continually give away our money” (The Collected Works of Watchman Nee, vol. 59, pp 67-71).

“After a man is saved, if he has not dealt with money in a clear way, he is not yet fully saved” (The Resumption of Watchman Nee’s Ministry, vol. 2, pp 396-399).

“Suppose a brother earns $40,000 a year, but what he actually needs for his living is much less than that amount. Being rather greedy, he wants to reserve a large amount for himself. He tithes ten percent, or $4,000, with the intention of keeping the other $36,000. This tithing is a good practice. However, it is possible for this brother to follow an even better way. According to this better way, the brother should keep what he needs for his living, perhaps $20,000, and give away the remainder. No doubt, humanly speaking, almost everyone would follow the first way, the way of tithing, instead of the second way, the way of giving all that he can. If the brother decides to tithe and keep the extra $16,000 for himself, eventually he will learn that, in His sovereignty, God has many ways to cause this excess money to disappear. There may be illness, accident, or calamity. If the money does not disappear in this generation, it will disappear in the following generation or certainly in the third generation. God's mighty, sovereign hand will be active to practice a heavenly balancing of the wealth among His people” (“Life-Study of Second Corinthians, pp.419-422).

Throughout the years I was concerned enough for an “illness, accident, or calamity” that we donated much of our savings to the church life. We personally donated over 100k+ in recent years to our local churches and The Lord’s Move to Europe (LME). This was a lot for us considering we only own a couple of small businesses. We have little savings due to being so afraid of money tying in with our salvation.

This year I started breaking down bawling with my husband telling him that my entire existence was just a pile of rules combined with never-ending anxiety. I could hardly handle the pressure any more with seeing all of the horrific wrongs done to fellow human beings in the church life, but nothing being done about it in the name of “keeping the oneness” and “being one with the brothers.” I was eaten alive with guilt over having these feelings and stuck in a constant battle of guilt, confessing to the Lord over my impure thoughts, asking Him to put love in me for the sexual predators, failing in having love for them, feeling divisive, then worrying how God was going to judge me for my divisiveness.

Everything in my life became some type of judgment from God for my feelings and thoughts. I waited for my husband to be killed in a car accident because I loved him so much, but I knew my love was “natural” and “honey” and needed to be removed. When he would be late getting home from somewhere I would be worried at home convinced that he was dead. I hardly enjoyed my own children because that love was “natural affection” and I needed to love them with God’s love, not my own. I tried to exercise my spirit during the day with them, but had been taught that every minute spent outside of my spirit with them was a waste in terms of God’s economy. I worried about my clothes being worldly, my house being worldly, and my hair being worldly.

We have a whole set of rules of how you have to look and act as a brother or sister and anything outside of those rules is “natural” and “worldly.”

I told my husband that I didn’t know how to follow the Lord’s leading with how I dressed or did my hair because if He led me to wear certain clothes that didn’t fit the group norms then it didn’t matter if I had His leading or not. I had to conform to group rules regardless of the Lord’s leading or else be perceived as natural, worldly, degraded, and sinful.

I eventually realized that everything I did and said in my daily life was centered around all of these spoken and unspoken group rules and I constantly felt guilty over my choices. For example, if I wore a shirt that had sequins on it, was it too much? Was it stumbling to others? Were sequins worldly? I was left feeling like I was worldly and thus sinful in nearly every aspect of my life.

My final breaking point was in April of this year after getting a haircut. I got it cut the shortest I have had it in a long time. When I looked in the mirror, I realized that it was too short for the saints taste. I started thinking about what is the unspoken correct length to have your hair as a sister in the church life? There’s a point where it’s too short and improper and there’s also a point where it’s too long and it would be considered strange. We have an unspoken rule of what is too short and what is too long and most of the sister’s conform to that.

My inner conflict was that I felt personally fine before my God to have it short, but knew that many of the people I was around would not be fine with it being short. I became so angry with God who took away every human enjoyment from me through our spoken and unspoken group rules. Music other than hymns was worldly, enjoying God’s creation too much was worldly, decorating my home was worldly, how I dressed, did my hair, what kind of car I had, EVERYTHING was through this funnel of worldliness. I never let myself be fully in any moment because I felt like everything I did aside from being in the meetings and reading the ministry was worldly and a waste of my time.

All of these things came together for me in a final breakdown moment. I could no longer handle all of the spoken and unspoken rules and was beyond sick of feeling helpless and hopeless in my life.

For the first time in my adult life I lost faith in God Himself. I was done with this awful God who only had judgment for me. There was no meaningful love or forgiveness from Him. My kingdom reward could be snatched away for thinking a negative thought towards an elder who told me that God does not need my love.

I was done with God and it shook up my entire existence.

I told my husband that I was done. If he wanted to continue pursuing God, I had no problem with that, but I was finished. I told God I was done with Him. I couldn’t keep up with all the rules for this group of people any more. I was exhausted from depression, fear, and anxiety.

If this is what God led to, I didn’t want anything to do with Him. I had watched many men who I considered godly my entire church life who now looked less godly in their 50s, 60s and 70s than they did starting out. If this was what transformation looked like, I didn’t want it.

On page 77 of the ministry magazine it said,

“When we are with a person, we need to consider whether we feel enlivened, encouraged, bright, and happy or whether we feel depressed, discouraged, and deadened…”

I asked myself how I got to this point with this group of people. We were Philadelphia. We had the High Peak of the Divine Revelation. We were a group of people becoming God in life and nature, but not in the Godhead. We were becoming the New Jerusalem. We were a part of God’s heart’s purpose and were going to be the ones to bring Him back. We had the minister of the age who had released the highest light and revelation to us and I had spent decades getting into and following this.

How could the pursuit of all these seemingly wonderful things of God lead me to giving up on God altogether? Why was I often “depressed, discouraged, and deadened” after being with the saints and reading the ministry even though I was exercising my spirit? Why were so many other saints I knew depressed, discouraged, and deadened? I hardly observed any saints I could really describe as “enlivened, encouraged, bright, and happy.”

The brothers I observed generally were wrapped up in politicking, trying to impress one another, and trying to rise the ranks. The sisters I observed had to spend their lives “serving” the brothers by raising the children and spending their vacation time and money on letting their husband go to multiple conferences and trainings and be in the meetings. Most moms I knew were exhausted and overwhelmed in the church life, not encouraged.

Giving up on God caused me to do some intense reflecting on my life and what led up to that point. I spent much time pondering my entire existence and came to some startling conclusions.

I realized that in my Christian walk with the Lord’s recovery I started out wanting to love God, love God’s pure Word, and love God’s people but came out on the other end of my pursuit loving a man who was the minister of the age, loving and holding onto the interpreted Word from one man, and only loving an exclusive and extremely tiny percentage of God’s people rather than God’s people as a whole.

I now understood that my entire pursuit had been a massive bait and switch and as I reflected on the situation of the Lord’s Recovery I realized many others had undergone the same bait and switch.

I wondered how we got to this point. Surely this was not what those in the glory days of Elden Hall envisioned for their future. Now we had the oneness of “the ministry.” What happened to the true oneness of the Spirit?

I then started asking questions about our history that I had never asked before. I needed to know why so many thousands upon thousands of saints had left the local churches throughout the years and why so many were continuing to leave. The rate of FTT graduates who were leaving and had left was astonishing. Here’s an account from a couple who attended the FTTMA: http://bit.ly/CoupleMistreatedinFTTMA. Why was there so many who left in “rebellions”? I had heard about these rebellions for years and had always believed all of these ones to be divisive and ambitious. We only knew what we had been told from our own in-house publishing company, LSM. We only knew what Brother Lee’s viewpoint was and what information him and the brothers chose to share with us over these things.

I was truly floored to find out that several of the leading “rebellious” ones from the huge 1980s “storm” had the EXACT SAME QUESTIONS AND FEELINGS I now had 30 years later.

Here are the exact 18 points they brought before Brother Lee multiple times in the 1980s (http://bit.ly/eyewitnessbrothers):

“1. There has been a change in emphasis to the building up of the work or the ministry more than the local churches. The ministry has been promoted, exalted, and built up, and the churches have suffered greatly in the process.
2. There had been a great effort and promotion to unite the saints and the churches around a certain leader and organization.
3. There has been much pressure with full expectation that all the saints and the churches will conform to the burden of the ministry and be identical with one another in full uniformity of practice to carry it out.
4. In February 1986 we had signed a letter along with 417 other elders agreeing that we would be identical with all the churches, that we would follow the ministry absolutely, and that we realized Brother Lee’s leading was indispensable to our oneness. Since these matters were not in agreement with the Word of God, we greatly regretted that we had subscribed to them, and I stated publicly that I would retract my signature.
5. There has been an emphasis, at least in practice, on a centralization of the churches and the work.
6. There has been a pervasive control exercised over the church, not so much directly, but very much indirectly, which makes it difficult to go on by getting our leading directly from the Lord.
7. Church history reveals that denominations have begun with the affiliation of groups of saints under one leadership followed by the commencement of a training center. We were also going that way.
8. I greatly appreciate Brother Lee’s portion, but he has been exalted and honored above what is written, according to 1 Corinthians 4:6.
9. Brother Lee and his ministry have been made a great issue and factor of division among us.
10. Our going on and our relationship with the saints and with the church is made to depend on our relationship with Brother Lee. When this is done the ground of oneness is replaced with something else.
11. We have applied the teaching concerning the ground of oneness in a divisive and sectarian way, so that we divide ourselves from other Christians. This is due to an improper attitude and application of the truth. In the local churches we have become narrow and small as manifested in our attitude toward other Christians and in our reception of other saints.
12. Our attitude toward other Christians is one of belittling them and thinking we’re superior. What we need is the reality of oneness, not just the teaching or slogan.
13. The Lord told us in His Word to go forth to Him outside the camp. The Lord is still calling His sheep out of every fold and every camp so that there can be one flock with one shepherd.
14. Our oneness should be as large as the whole Body of Christ. Any oneness that is smaller than this we should leave and not keep.
15. We should all go directly to the Lord for His leading in the church in order to have a local administration, at the same time maintaining a proper fellowship with other saints and other churches. At this point I quoted some sentences from a pamphlet entitled The Beliefs and Practices of the Local Church, published by the Living Stream Ministry. One sentence reads: "In all administrative affairs, the local churches are autonomous and locally governed."
16. There has been an over-stressing and distortion of the teaching concerning deputy authority, which has caused the saints to be fearful to follow their conscience, to be one with their spirit, and sometimes to speak their genuine concerns.
17. There has been too much emphasizing of methods more than the inner anointing, and external big success more than the experience of the inner life.
18. We have no problem with the matters of the "new way.” We wanted to make that clear. Actually these things are not new.”

Greg and I continued asking questions about our heritage.

We learned that Brother Lee started a motor home building business in the 1970s called DayStar (a for profit business) with the help of a 100k loan from the saints in the church in Boston and much money from many other localities. Many of them had no idea what their money was going to. The church in Boston (a non-profit corporation) wrote a 100k loan check to “Overseas Christian Stewards” (an unregistered business with 3 people: Brother Lee, Samuel Chang and K.H. Weigh). The money then went to an overseas business in Taiwan called Phosphorus (a for profit business) run by Brother Lee’s son, Timothy Lee. The purpose of Phosphorus was to produce parts for the Daystar business as well as other production of goods. Long story short, the business went bankrupt and many of the saints lost all of their money. Elders strongly urged the saints to consider it a donation instead of having to be paid back. Some saints were paid back. Many were not. Some lost their entire life savings and retirement and had to work the rest of their lives. LSM then started charging money called “donations” for the semi-annual trainings. Even when LSM went on to be worth millions, many of the saints were not paid back.

The leading brother who wrote the 100k loan check to Brother Lee found out the money was used in ways not originally intended, rather than for the Lord. He called Brother Lee and confronted him.

Listen to the original phone call: http://bit.ly/ConfrontingPhoneCall

Read a transcript of the original phone call: http://bit.ly/TranscriptConfrontingPhoneCall

The brother who wanted to know where the saints money had gone was told by Brother Lee, “that is not your business…I’m not responsible to anyone. I’m only responsible to the government…” Considering Brother Lee allegedly participated in potential money laundering and potential direct violations of state and federal securities laws, his feeling of being only responsible to the government is debatable.

We learned that one of Brother Lee’s sons, Philip Lee, was allegedly involved in multiple sexual improprieties while being in a position of authority as office manager of the LSM office. Multiple cases of adultery and fornication were reported by witnesses spanning over a decade. Brother Lee knew the sexual sins going on from his son and chose to let Philip remain office manager at LSM. And not only did Brother Lee know, he chose to cover it up and let it continue. Some of the elders eventually forced Philip Lee to stop meeting, but he was eventually invited back with an apology letter after they left.

The “rebellious” elders who brought forth all these problems to Brother Lee eventually left or where forced out after reporting what they saw to the brothers and Brother Lee. Many of them resigned their eldership due to not being able to go on with their conscience. The ones who remained were the top ones who proclaimed their allegiance to Brother Lee and LSM.

Greg and I were beyond shocked to learn that decades later the same problems remained and in many ways had gotten worse. We learned that many of the top ones at LSM have been covering up more than we could possibly imagine for my entire lifetime.

Here is a link detailing multiple brothers experiences of trying to help Brother Lee and the Lord’s recovery: http://bit.ly/eyewitnessbrothers

As I learned of Brother Lee’s financial shortcomings, how he was running multiple businesses using the saints money in the name of serving of the Lord, how he helped cover up sexual misconduct at LSM, and how multiple top leading ones had been covering up these things for decades, something crumbled in me.

I was 38 years old and had lived my entire life believing that Witness Lee was one of the most pure men on earth. He was the minister of the age, the wise master builder, the oracle of God, and had spent a life-time of denying his self and only serving the Lord and His interest. In fact, he said it over and over again throughout his ministry of how restricted he was, how pure he was towards the Lord and how he gave his whole life for the Lord’s recovery. And not only did he say it, but everyone else did too. Brother Lee was one of the most faithful servants of the Lord. He had recovered all the major truths in the Bible, had all the light and revelation, and now I just needed to spend my entire life getting into his ministry. I spent my entire youth and adulthood opening myself to this man and “the brothers” based on believing how pure they all were.

In that moment when something crumbled in me regarding Brother Lee and the brothers, my entire life changed. They had always been infallible to me and to have that foundation crumble caused me to examine the entire belief system of the local churches.

I now needed to understand the history of the Lord’s recovery and what had gotten us to the point of only ascribing to one man and his interpretations of the Bible and excommunicating those who don’t completely follow him.

In every other area of belief in my life I had always been able to look at multiple points of view for that belief. For instance, living in a democratic country I could understand our beliefs in the democratic system but could also understand other viewpoints such as monarchies, dictatorships, etc. I didn’t have to agree with other viewpoints and didn’t have to agree with all points of my own countries government. This principle was the same in all areas of my life from what college I went to, what kind of house to buy, what city to live in, etc. I was open to other people’s ideas and beliefs. Able to reject what I didn’t like or believe and able to accept what I had evaluated for myself and what worked for me personally. That’s what humans do.

There was one glaring area of my life that I had never been willing to listen to other people’s viewpoints on and had never been open to hear what people outside of us had to say. That was my beliefs about the Lord’s recovery. I was able to hear multiple viewpoints about other areas of my life, but the area of the local churches I could not and would not listen to what anyone but Watchman Nee, Witness Lee, and “the brothers” had to say.

My husband brought up the point that if what God was doing on earth today as defined by Witness Lee was legitimate, surely it should be able to stand on its own two feet.

If we were able to critically think regarding all other areas of our life, shouldn’t we be able to critically think regarding the Lord’s Recovery? If it was as strong and wonderful as we say it is, shouldn’t it be able to survive some scrutiny? If all these truths are in the Bible, shouldn’t we be able to find them for ourselves in the Word of God?

We continued researching our history.

We learned that many elders, leading ones, and other saints all throughout the Lord’s recovery had been leaving for years. The vast majority left not because they had “unfulfilled ambition” or “wanted to be someone,” but they were genuinely concerned for where the saints were being led. Many who left felt like the church life started as something so glorious but soon became something that did not line up with the Bible. Many had seen so many wrongs that were never able to be righted in the name of having no opinions, no criticizing, and keeping the oneness.

There was and is a massive lack of accountability in the leadership.

I knew Brother Lee felt that he had brought us the highest and the best and I had always believed that. We constantly heard that poor Christianity had nothing to offer God and Brother Lee had brought us all the major light and revelation.

We have even gone so far as to limit the saints in what they can publish.

Brother Lee said in 1986,

“It bothers me that some brothers among us still put out publications. According to my truthful observation, there is no new light or life supply there. They may contain some biblical doctrines, but any point of life or light has been adopted from the publications of Living Stream Ministry. There is nearly no item of life or light that has not been covered by our publications. Based upon this fact, what is the need for these brothers to put out their publications? Because all the publications are mine, it is hard for me to speak such a word. But I am forced to tell the truth. By putting out your own publication, you waste your time and money. You waste the money given by the saints, and you waste their time in reading what you publish. Where is the food, the life supply, and the real enlightenment in the other publications among us? Be assured that there is definitely at least one major revelation in every Living Stream Ministry publication. I was burdened to publish the Life-study messages to stress the matter of life because this matter has been neglected, missed, and even lost to the uttermost in today's Christianity. In most of the commentaries and expositions there is not much life.” (Elder’s Training “The Life-Pulse of the Lord’s Present Move Book 8, p 148, 1986)

This portion was reprinted in 2005 with our “Publication Work in the Lord’s Recovery” pamphlet that was distributed to all the churches. Our history is one of only tightening control over the saints, not lessening it. Here is a brother’s account of attempting to bring control issues to light with Brother Lee: http://bit.ly/BillMallonLettertoBrotherLee

1 John 2:26-27 says, “These things I have written to you concerning those who lead you astray. And as for you, the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone teach you; but as His anointing teaches you concerning all things and is true, and is not a lie, and even as it has taught you, abide in Him.”

How can Brother Lee say about other Christians that “there is no new light or life supply there?” Are we really to believe that out of the millions and millions of Christians that God only gave new life and light to a couple of men since the 1900s?

As we started to ponder these questions, I became truly open to other people in a way I never was before. No longer could I just accept everything simply because I was told to. I knew the Word said that we all had the anointing, but it seemed to me like we were only following “the brothers” who had the anointing.

Why did we need to only have one publication work? Could the saints not read other people’s writings and discern for themselves what was of Christ or not? Were we truly that mindless, that if we disagreed with something printed by our own in-house publishing company we were not keeping the oneness? Where was this in the Bible of keeping the oneness meaning needing to keep the oneness of one man’s speaking? Where was this in the Bible of having to ascribe to only one man 100%? Where was this in the Bible of saints in a church not being allowed to have their own publications?

Greg and I spent weeks researching the history of Witness Lee, Watchman Nee and the Brethren. At this point we feel we have only learned the tip of the iceberg of what there is to learn regarding the history of the Lord’s Recovery. However, there isn’t enough time in the day to learn everything before making some major decisions about how we would like to move forward in our life.

Even if all the stories about Brother Lee’s business enterprises and his son’s sexual improprieties were fabricated, my personal experience with the ministry making me sick is enough for me to be done with such a harmful system. However, I don’t think the stories were fabricated considering Brother Lee admitted to some of the business endeavors: http://bit.ly/ConfrontingPhoneCall.

I implore you to read through the link mentioned earlier for a viewpoint from many who resigned their eldership and who were excommunicated for not being one with “the ministry.” They could no longer go on with the Lord’s recovery due to the feeling in their conscience. Greg and I now both feel the same way: http://bit.ly/eyewitnessbrothers

When Greg and I first started discussing the problems we saw, I was terrified. I kept waiting for the earth to figuratively open up and swallow me alive because I would dare to bring up the sins of my fathers. I was physically ill with all I was learning and could do nothing about. I realized I had spent my entire life helpless and hopeless about any wrongs I saw and now seeing so many more wrongs I was expected to just cover Noah’s sins or I would experience God’s judgment.

We learned about the misuse of spiritual authority all in the name of being a deputy authority and realized we were a part of a system that abused power in the name of serving the Lord. We learned this is a common method of group control in extreme Bible based groups.

Here’s one of many resources to learn about the abuse of spiritual power as a way to control people: http://bit.ly/AbuseofSpiritualPower

My entire thinking for as long as I could remember had been under a cloud of guilt, fear, and anxiety. I had been told by saints to just call on the Lord for my anxiety. To pray more, to eat the ministry and the Word more. Psychology and receiving psychological help was worldly and in the fallen natural realm. I had seen a therapist on and off for years and was wracked with guilt about it, believing that I was worldly, fallen, and partaking of a satanic system that would only bring me away from God. Interestingly enough, my therapist for years had attempted to reveal the destructive ways of the high control religious group I was a part of, but I had always believed that they just couldn’t understand our higher purpose.

I learned that keeping members from receiving mental health help was a common tactic of high control groups and was done in many religious groups in the name of following God: http://bit.ly/ProgrammedtoFearMentalHealthHelp

Here’s a quote from Brother Lee regarding not receiving mental health help:

“All of the church people are so healthy because they are under God's blessing through the church life. Many of the church people can testify that before they came into the church life they were weak and sickly. Many were sick mentally, but after being in the church life they became sober and healthy. This is the blessing. This blessing comes as a result of offering Christ to God through the cross. Sisters, if you want to be healthy, you need to experience Christ and to offer Him to God through the cross. If you live this way for awhile, you will see how strong you will be and how mentally sober you will become. Every young sister who lives this way will be healthy both mentally and emotionally. Most young women are sick either emotionally or mentally. No psychiatrist can help them. However, if you live the church life, the very Christ whom you offer to God will heal you. He is better than any psychiatrist. Do not go to a psychiatrist—come to Christ and offer Him to God. Then you will be healthy, sober, and emotionally balanced. Since the church life is the proper life, it brings in God's blessing. Peace, joy, love, sympathy, kindness, normal living—all are signs of such a blessing of life which comes by the experience of Christ through the cross.” (Witness Lee, Life Study of Genesis, Volume 2, Message 32, Anaheim, CA, 1975, page 431).

The more I learned about high control groups, the more I realized what had been done to us. I was programmed through years of being under the ministry and the brother’s speaking that when others outside of us said we were a cult that it proved we were doing God’s will and it was proof that Satan was fighting against us. I learned that multiple other high control groups had their exact same version of this.

I had always thought our group was truly unique. That no one else out there could understand us because we were the only ones really following the Lord and His purpose. That we were the only ones truly being attacked by Satan and standing for the Lord. I was shocked to learn that there were millions of people all over the world trapped in various systems headed up by corrupt human beings. Multiple religious groups besides us believed they were the only ones being attacked by Satan for their beliefs and that they had the best way to follow God.

See here our similarities with the Jehovah's Witnesses: http://bit.ly/LordsRecoverySimilaritiestotheJWs

We learned that our slow way approach with the new ones was a common bait and switch tactic used by high control groups. Here’s some examples from the Jehovah’s Witnesses and Mormons whose recruits also undergo a similar process to ours: http://bit.ly/JWBaitandSwitch and http://bit.ly/MormonBaitandSwitch.

I was also surprised to learn that being afraid to criticize or speak up about wrongs was not unique to our group and was a common technique used for group control.

Look at this one aspect of “Emotional Control” from Steven Hassan, an expert about high control groups and see if you feel that any apply to us (http://bit.ly/StevenHassanBITEModel):

“Phobia indoctrination: inculcating irrational fears about leaving the group or questioning the leader’s authority
a. No happiness or fulfillment possible outside of the group
b. Terrible consequences if you leave: hell, demon possession, incurable diseases, accidents, suicide, insanity, 10,000 reincarnations, etc.
c. Shunning of those who leave; fear of being rejected by friends, peers, and family
d. Never a legitimate reason to leave; those who leave are weak, undisciplined, unspiritual, worldly, brainwashed by family or counselor, or seduced by money, sex, or rock and roll
e. Threats of harm to ex-member and family”

I realized that I was trapped mentally by so many phobias. And the exact moment that I learned that all of my fears regarding leaving the local churches were just programmed phobias, SOMETHING INCREDIBLE HAPPENED.

One moment inwardly I was trapped, helpless, and hopeless.

The next moment, I WAS FREE.

Realizing that all my fears were just installed in my head by human beings caused them to just evaporate in an instant. The God I thought was controlling every aspect of my life was actually a system of men with underhanded methods of control. The God I thought I knew had been misrepresented.

My head had always been filled with more anxiety and fear than I can possibly express and now it is beautifully serene. The unrelenting severe anxiety I have suffered with for nearly 30 years IS GONE. All the power these men had over me in the name of deputy authority is gone.

It truly is the man behind the curtain: http://bit.ly/ManBehindtheCurtainExposed

Moving forward I want to truly love all human beings. Before, I had sung “Glorious Freedom” in meetings while inwardly feeling trapped in something I didn’t understand.

I now feel a true glorious freedom.

John 8:32, “And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.”

Jesus was with all kinds of people when He was on earth. They probably wore all kinds of clothes, had all different kinds of beliefs, practices, and different cultures. Did He think they weren’t fit for the kingdom because they weren’t wearing a white shirt with a specific kind of tie? Today we would reject many of the ones the Lord was with due to not being “the proper building materials.”

We have an entire culture of outwardly conforming to so many practices without being able to be led by the Lord. For example, a new one would come to the meeting with a beard and you would inwardly wonder how long it would take before they came to the meeting clean shaven. Whenever that was, days, weeks, or months later it was seen as an outward sign of transformation. I would wonder if it was truly transformation or just not wanting to stick out so they conformed to the group norms. This principle of conforming to the group affects all areas of our lives- how we speak, the tone of voice we use, how we say amen, how we call on the Lord, how we dress, etc. It is never ending.

When I had my final breakdown (breakthrough?) I told Greg that I was just a pile of rules. Everything I did in my daily life was through this filter of what was ok with the group and what wasn’t ok with the group. What would be perceived as worldly/sinful/divisive/rebellious ruled my every waking thought.

I’m here to tell you: You do not have to live that way. Anxiety, depression, and fear are not healthy or normal feelings you should be feeling when meeting with any group of people. You do not have to continue living this way.

We have walked away from the Lord’s recovery and it is one of the most freeing things I’ve ever done.

We’ve also found entire communities of people who have walked away from the local churches and contrary to what we’ve been told in the Lord’s recovery, they have not come to naught. It’s convenient that when someone who left the Lord’s recovery passes away we talk about it as if they got their judgment from God, but the saints who die in the Lord’s recovery somehow still had God’s blessing. You can’t have it both ways.

Please know that the stories of death and coming to naught are phobia indoctrinations by men to do their best to keep you “in.”

There’s a reason the growth rate in the Lord’s recovery has plummeted since the 1970s and 1980s. One of the main reasons the Lord’s recovery still exists in the United States is due to all the children being born into it. I was one of them. See here a chart of our poor growth rate (starts around the 1 hr, 10 minute mark): http://bit.ly/stagnantgrowth

Many localities practice getting the children saved and baptized at a 6th grade conference. I personally have spoken with church-kids who felt like saying no to getting saved wasn’t even an option. They were in a group, lined up and told to call on the Lord to get saved and then baptized. They felt like their free will was violated. Where is this in the Bible of having to get saved and baptized in 6th grade?

To all you precious sisters: according to the ministry we have no place but to bear children, serve the brothers, cook food for massive groups of people, have some kind of “hidden life” before the Lord, and keep silent about what we see. Please know that having to keep silent in the name of submitting is another spiritual abuse of power: http://bit.ly/silenceisnotspiritual

Brother Lee let us know how he felt about women many times. Here’s an example from the Life-Study of 1 Peter:

“Therefore, as a household servant submits himself to his master, so the wives should subject themselves to their own husbands. This kind of word is certainly contrary to the emphasis of the so-called women’s liberation movement. That movement is against the Bible, for it is against God's ordination in His creation with respect to male and female. Using Peter's expression (3:7), God created the females weaker vessels. What country would use women as the main fighting force in the army? Females are weaker physically and psychologically. For this reason, it is easy for women to shed tears, which are often a sign of weakness. Furthermore, it is easy for a female to be troubled in her mind or emotion. All these are signs that the female is a weaker vessel.” (Witness Lee, Life Study of 1 Peter, Volume 2, Message 32, Anaheim, CA, 1985, page 199).

According to https://www.dictionary.com/browse/women-s-liberation, women’s liberation is, “A movement to combat sexual discrimination and to gain full legal, economic, vocational, educational, and social rights and opportunities for women, equal to those of men.”

Why would Brother Lee be against something that wants to combat sexual discrimination and provide equal opportunities for women? I would hypothesize that the Lord’s Recovery would fall apart without the women. They are the hidden backbone that keeps the entire system going. Who does the majority of the cooking, the cleaning, shopping, and being with the children while the husband travels for never-ending conferences and brother’s meetings?

One of the reasons the growth in the Lord’s recovery is stagnant is that many of the younger generation want nothing to do with an oppressive hierarchical system. Men are more involved in raising their children than they have ever been before. Men care for women’s rights more than they ever have before. Our children are being raised in a society that is more inclusive than it’s ever been for groups of people traditionally oppressed. We still have a long way to go in all these areas, but there is progress. The younger generation doesn’t want much to do with widespread bigotry, oppression, and intolerance.

Moving forward Greg and I want to be open to all humans, not just a select few. If the leading ones would truly repent for all of the wrongs among us, Greg and I would be more than happy to be open to them in our heart.

Unfortunately, Brother Lee, the “blended brothers” and so many elders have known about so many horrific wrongs and have white-washed our history for nearly 40 years. The white-washing continues today with teams of people paid to work on scrubbing the internet. The Defense and Confirmation Project (DCP) exists to suppress much information about us. Much money is spent every year on buying up and maintaining domain names that could be used against us, editing Wikipedia articles about us, trying to get “negative” search results pushed down, and getting “positive” search results about us pushed to the top. Not to mention our litigious history of suing other Christians: http://bit.ly/LawsuitsOpenLetter

We know that by not following Witness Lee 100% we will be excommunicated and quarantined. We will likely lose our entire community. If the saints are truly accepting of all believers, why should Greg and I be excommunicated for having a different practice (being open to other interpretations of the Word other than just Witness Lee)? How can our basis with the saints and other Christians be having to hold onto Witness Lee 100%? We say that we hold onto the items of the faith, but really we hold on to the items of Witness Lee.

We can no longer keep our voices quiet about an organization that has covered up sexual, physical, psychological, and spiritual abuse. We can no longer support a system that suppresses women’s rights and excludes so many groups of people. We can no longer support an organization that builds itself on the blood, sweat, and tears of the saints who have given untold millions of their hard-earned dollars and their volunteer time. Something that for so many had glorious beginnings quickly became something else entirely. We can no longer support an organization that marginalizes the victims and those who bring up legitimate concerns.

The process of leaving has been very painful. I have felt like I was losing my entire identity as I was born and raised in this way. However painful it is, I see so much hope and light in our future.

We hope you start asking questions for yourselves. We hope you take the time to learn about our history from some other sources other than just what is produced by our own publishing company. It’s in LSM’s best interest to conduct “in-house” reviews of itself and have a one-sided view that is presented to the saints. As of 2013, LSM alone was approaching nearly 100 million in assets (http://bit.ly/LSMBoard). There are more businesses structured under and around it than I think we will ever know. Many of the top leading ones have not had a job in the world for the majority of their adult lives. The churches support their living and will support their retirement. I have no problem with people being paid for working (what we call being supported), it’s just the hypocrisy of claiming that we are wholly against the clergy-laity system when we have that exact system ourselves.

It’s in the leading brothers best interest for LSM to continue on. The money made per year from the live semi-annual training “donations” at ~4,000 attendees times $200 per “donation” is approximately $800,000. At twice per year that’s nearly $2 million dollars. That does not even include the thousands of attendees of the video trainings that are charged $100 apiece. Perhaps this isn’t much to some and they certainly could make more, but at the same time it’s not an insignificant amount. Not to mention the money made from individual book sales, standing orders for books, media, rental money from all of the owned facilities, the full-time training tuition, and many more revenue streams that we are likely unaware of.

It’s time for the leadership to have some accountability.

Here is a link about ways destructive groups use to gain control of your life. I beg you to look through these methods and consider the Lord’s Recovery in this light: http://bit.ly/groupinfluence

Here is a forum we have found particularly helpful from many dear believers who have passed through the process of leaving: http://bit.ly/localchurchdiscussions

Here is a book written by someone who used to meet with us and helps answer a lot of questions about what life could look like moving forward, including addressing the ground of the oneness: http://bit.ly/churchlifebeyondthelocalchurch

And for those of you wondering about the Christian Research Institute “We Were Wrong” article (Christian Research Journal, “We Were Wrong” “A Reassessment of the Local Church Movement of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee,” 32, no. 6, 2009), here’s a thoughtful response about that: http://bit.ly/CRIArticleEvaluation.

You are not alone. We are not alone. For every saint currently in the local churches there are untold others that have left and know the truth.

I have much hope for the future and I can honestly say it’s a hope I never had before.

We hope for freedom for so many.

I’m a firm believer that it’s time for so many who have left the Lord’s Recovery and so many who are still in to finally have a voice. It’s time for people to start speaking up about the wrongs they have seen done to themselves and to others.

We can each contribute to something beautiful when we start speaking our truth.

We love each and every one of you and are here for you.

~Greg and Joanna Casteel

*This letter can be freely shared and used however the reader deems worthy for their needs*

Any and all emphasis has been added by website administrator

[UntoHim]

Please post any responses to this Open Letter here on this thread.
-

[byHismercy]

Someone was wondering the when the letter was written....she referenced her child born in 2018, so it is fairly recent, I think

[least]

Thank you byHismercy.

[Ohio]

Reading thru this family's story, I continually oscillated between sad and mad. I was active in the Ohio area LC's from mid-70's to the mid-00's, and what I read in their account was for the most part different than anything I had ever seen.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Reading thru this family's story, I continually oscillated between sad and mad. I was active in the Ohio area LC's from mid-70's to the mid-00's, and what I read in their account was for the most part different than anything I had ever seen.

It resonated strongly with me. Especially the part about identifying fear as the controlling force. The LC leadership uses intimidation. They have the freedom to speak horrible things from the podium and nobody can say a word. Because the audience is scared to call it out, they are paralyzed with fear.

I told the story where a Blended was giving a conference and looked down from the podium and started querying a 'local church brother' about his relations with his wife. Unbeknownst to the Blended, the brother's wife had left him. The brother sat there red-faced, while the Blended went on. Nobody in the meeting said anything. (several hundred were present) But if you say anything to the Blendeds about their family life? Forget it! No chance.

What rules is fear. They say there's no hierarchy but some get to 'call out' others without reciprocity. And everyone knows it.

[aron]

The other thing I liked about the post was that I've long felt that more females should speak up about the legacy of abuse. Here's what I wrote 6 months ago:

Originally Posted by aron

What were the charges against those in the so-called Sisters' Rebellion, and how were their 'sins' different from the actions of those lauded as the historical torchbearers of "the Lord's recovery"? What's different, other than earlier ones being conveniently dead and therefore useful to a power play, whilst some, being very much alive, were perceived as rivals and threats? Okay, I get that. Anything else, here? Any fundamental differences, or merely the issue of convenience?

And how could we all sit there while RK publicly derided "spiritual sisters" as being "worse than rebellious brothers", and not notice the glaring disconnect between this and his lionized "early pillars"? How did otherwise intelligent and functional people get so mesmerised by the WL mind control programme? Amazing to consider in retrospect.

Convenience creates contrivance - there's your "present recovered truth". And we all sat there: stupefied, stunned and senseless.

The reason females have been pushed down in the LC is simple: it automatically eliminates 50% of the potential threats. Just get them to agree that being female obviates them from rational thought and it is so much easier to reprogram and control them So to see a female saying, "Hey, this doesn't make sense was encouraging.

That and the person writing from the PRC were the best things I've seen all year. It just takes one courageous person to speak up. One little 'Toto' to pull back the wizard's curtain.

Originally Posted by aron

I'd like to focus on one particular "rebellion" as an example of what is at play here. The so-called "Sister's Rebellion". What was their crime? Drawing others unto themselves? Being "spiritual sisters" (RK's derogatory term)? Okay, then why base your movement prominently on the thoughts and activities of Jessie Penn-Lewis, Madame Guyon, Miss Margaret Barber, Miss Elisabeth Fischbacher, Mary McDonough, Ruth Lee et al.... ?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

What rules is fear. They say there's no hierarchy but some get to 'call out' others without reciprocity. And everyone knows it.

Here it is abundantly clear that the LC management style is not lifted from scripture but from the military and Chinese culture. There is a clearly defined "pecking order" which delineates the hierarchy. The higher-ups alone have the prerogative to "call out" or "dress down" those beneath them.

It wasn't just with LSM, the elders, or the brothers that this "pecking order" was apparent. About the time my wife and I were leaving the "program," another deacon and his wife suddenly visited us. They were both on the verge of tears, almost in a state of shock. They both had been selflessly serving our young people for years. They had just left a time of "fellowship" with an elder and his wife. The elder's wife had tirelessly castigated this deaconess in front of their husbands over basically nothing. It was not about anything she had done, but "it's all about who you are!" All we could do is comfort them and explain that it's just the way things are.

[RambleOn]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Someone was wondering the when the letter was written....she referenced her child born in 2018, so it is fairly recent, I think

This letter was posted on 6/9/2019, so yes, very recent.

I was born and raised in the LC, so very much of this letter resonated with me. It is difficult to put into words how frightening and isolating it can be to question this system when you've been born into it, and the authors of the letter did a good job of encapsulating that feeling.

[awareness]

It's very hard to leave a cult that you've grown up in.

So kudos to Greg and Joanna for having the courage to walk out. And I hope their testimony encourages others to do so.

"Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery
None but ourselves can free our minds ..."
- Bob Marley - Redemption Song

[NewManLiving]

The replies to the letter posted on Facebook are quite interesting

[Raptor]

Hi, ...I just recently began to learn about all the hidden history of the LR. To you all that have been aware of this for a while, how do you evaluate the impact of this letter from the Casteel´s and all the Facebook responses so far? I know there are many other documents from others and letters, etc., but how do I put this letter and responses into perspective?

In other words, does this open FB post with so many saints supporting and confirming with their own experiences seem like something really big is happening and gaining momentum, like the cat is really out of the bag now, or maybe just not yet?

Thanks!
(me? just a brother in the church for years and years looking to the Lord to understand.....)

[RambleOn]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Hi, ...I just recently began to learn about all the hidden history of the LR. To you all that have been aware of this for a while, how do you evaluate the impact of this letter from the Casteel´s and all the Facebook responses so far? I know there are many other documents from others and letters, etc., but how do I put this letter and responses into perspective?

In other words, does this open FB post with so many saints supporting and confirming with their own experiences seem like something really big is happening and gaining momentum, like the cat is really out of the bag now, or maybe just not yet?

Thanks!
(me? just a brother in the church for years and years looking to the Lord to understand.....)

Personal opinion, I don't think the cat has been in the bag for a while. Sure, some people will be shocked to hear of this stuff, but none of it is hard to find if you're interested enough to look. Practically every document the authors of that letter found is searchable on this very site and has been for years. The main service they did is to compile everything into a digestible (dare I say crystallized) format with easy links, and they did a good job of summarizing certain things.

So I think for some this will be a big deal, but for many it changes nothing. They love the Lord and the saints, and they meet on the ground of oneness and that's all there is to it.

[Trapped]

I think this letter has a few things going for it:

1. It's reasoned and doesn't use inflammatory language gratuitously.
2. It's decently formatted, grammatically pleasing, and easy to follow.
3. It helps that right up front she voiced the programmed thoughts that many would have by default.
4. It's posted on a very public platform. It's not on a "poisonous" website back in the dark forest that all the gnomes are warned to stay away from.
5. It's easy to stay away from a website you don't go to. But by the intelligent design of social media, it's hard to skip past a Facebook post (that involves you in any way) once you see it....even if you "know" it's "poison" when you read it.
6. Although she provided many links, there is more than enough to make people stop and think just from the letter itself. For those still fearful of poison, they may stay away from the links.
7. Facebook comments are a huge drawing factor. People love to read things and then scroll right down to see what other people had to say about it to see if their opinion matches the majority opinion. The volume of confirming comments helps validate the letter.
8. Personally I think it helps that it's current. Past issues and abuses from decades ago, while serious, don't carry much personal impact for the younger generation in the church. Although, they can be the last straw on the camels back, for sure.
9. She clearly articulates many nebulous things that are difficult to pin down unless someone verbalizes them for you. I think for some who read it it will be a fog-clearing wind.
10. Toward the end she briefly addresses sisters directly. I do think many sisters in the LCs are suffering silently in the way she describes.
11. Its overall tone is hopeful and not condemning or critical.

I think there are a few of us who are wondering the same thing, Raptor.......waiting to see the significance and scope of this thing.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Hi, ...I just recently began to learn about all the hidden history of the LR. To you all that have been aware of this for a while, how do you evaluate the impact of this letter from the Casteel´s and all the Facebook responses so far? I know there are many other documents from others and letters, etc., but how do I put this letter and responses into perspective?

In other words, does this open FB post with so many saints supporting and confirming with their own experiences seem like something really big is happening and gaining momentum, like the cat is really out of the bag now, or maybe just not yet?

Thanks!
(me? just a brother in the church for years and years looking to the Lord to understand.....)

I'm reminded of the story I once read of a torture and murder of Christian confessors. It was held in public, in the arena, with the local magistrate (praetor) presiding. You see these people held to an unseen God, who was above all, and His manifested Christ who was the Galilean Jew Jesus of Nazareth. To the Roman rulers this was godlessness, and treasonous against the Emperor (and Empire).

So the Christians were herded into the ampitheatre to be mauled and destroyed before all the local inabitants.

As the magistrate proclaimed Judgment, one of the soldiers stepped forward and confessed that he, too, believed. He was summarily placed with the Christians and died on the spot.

It only takes one brave person to step forward. At that moment when the soldier publicly left the ranks of the oppressor and stood for the oppressed, the enslaving power of the Roman sword (fear) was exposed. The whole crowd saw the fall of earthly power (coercion) and the the display of heavenly power (faith).

The LSM ruled the LC by fear for decades, but some brave persons are saying, "Enough" and stepping forward.

Many have not spoken out because of the power of "the ministry" over their lives. College students who rely on parents' funding. Older couples who fear losing touch with their grand-children. Husbands who know that estrangement and divorce may follow. Same with wives. There are real consequences of speaking up - ostracism, judgment, shame. Not to mention "divine retribution" - a thousand years in darkness, or worse.

But people are stepping forward. Here are two on the FB page:

BTW, my husband is also an elder. I had my eyes opened gradually over the last 3 years by a gradual, spiritual, life changing process of healing. The more my joy increased, the more I realized how off things were until I just said, "No thank-you, I don't much care for what you have to offer." This was after being extremely involved in the church life since 1981 & raising my 4 kids therein. I even testified for damages in the law suite against the book "The God Men" because of the persecution I experienced coming into the "church." However, when I started getting healed, I realized that no one I knew, or was aware of, in the church life was getting any real, practical, saving, healing help from the "ministry," others in the church, or even their God, at all. No one was changing & no one was joyful. In fact, no one had anything (spiritual) that I wanted or even wanted to be around at all. I already had all the same knowledge. So I walked away & am so thankful to be free. The Lord is so good, kind, merciful, compassionate, caring, loving and gracious. I am now experiencing more every day what it is to truly know Him (vs religion) and His incomparable love for me.

This speaks to a point I have made before: in the LC they are told that sitting in a meeting under the ministry of Lee, they are "absorbing God" and by pray-reading HWMR and outlines they are "masticating God" and they'll undergo "metabolic transformation" and "become God in life and nature" but if so, why no transformation? As the post says, "No one was changing and no one was joyful". So where is the evidence that you are becoming God? Where is the hopeful sign? I don't see one.

2nd testimony:

When corruption started being exposed in the LSM office regarding W Lee's son around 1988 and the events that followed, all the politics, fleshly behavior, reactions to cover up and defend the status quo, I told the Lord that He brought me into the "Recovery" and if wanted me to leave it would have to His speaking and leading. I spent over a year in desperate prayer giving the Lord permission to have His way in my life. Slowly He started opening my eyes. It shook my entire being. Then during the conference in Pasadena in 1989 the Lord spoke it was time to leave. What I had devoted my life to had become something other than what we claimed. I cried all the way home. My wife was clear as well. Then began the process to coming back to my first love, Christ.

Then to someone who said he was judgmental and should "Look away unto Jesus" (i.e. be quiet) he replied:

dear brother, I was in the local church from 1975-1989. Sometime in the mids 80s when we took the ground in our outpost, I was made an elder with two other brothers. I was as dedicated and zealous as any of the saints. I loved Brother Lee, the churches, etc. I spent my extra time preaching the gospel, including multiple trips to smuggle Bibles to China from 1979-1982. As we used to say Christ is our life and the church is our living. I have amazing memories of my days meeting with the saints.Then sometime in the mid eighties things started to change, become more organized, centralized. I started waking up the morning in fear I was in a Christian cult. Were did those thoughts come from? I figured it was the enemy.

Then, as you can find the history in detail by doing a search, word got out that Phillip Lee was caught in adultery. Many saints were stumbled and leading ones went to Brother Lee. Brother Lee said he would do something about it. Then other leading brothers, especially from Texas, used this as an opportunity to weasel their way into Lee’s inner circle and push out the leading brothers from So. California. The result was Phillip Lee was promoted to head up the Living Stream Ministry office. (This was 30 years ago, so my timing of promoting Phillip may be a little off. May have been earlier.)

This began a difficult time when the saints in Anaheim and surrounding areas started taking sides. Many were appalled that a sinning brother who had past immoral indiscretions was exalted while others had seen the adultery were being silenced. This turned into there is a conspiracy to oppose W. Lee and the ministry. Confusion abounded. Many on both sides reacted in the flesh.

Eventually Brother Lee believed there was a conspiracy and went to war. I was in those elders’ meetings where W Lee was angry, scorched brothers. I saw an ugly side of him that shocked me, a side we never saw in meetings. Then there were big meetings where Bro Lee drew a line and said anyone who was not 100% for his ministry to get out. If you were just 99%, you should leave the “Recovery.”

I was in much inner conflict. Many went on a war campaign to defend the ministry. Suspicion abounded. The atmosphere was toxic. It was the Lord who brought me into the church, so it would have to be Him who took me out. I spent a year in desperate prayer. Then in a conference in Pasadena in 1989, everything came to a head. W. Lee proclaimed he was the commander in chief, the deputy authority, the oracle of God. He was the only one God was speaking through. No other brothers had anything to offer except repeat his words. Then he, figuratively speaking, spoke ill of a dear deceased brother name G. H. Lang who had written a book warning that churches should not be centralized, but be independent while maintaining fellowship with one another. Bro. Lee acted like he threw the book on the ground and spit on it. I was appalled by such behavior. After that meeting, I cried all the way home. Then the Lord said it was time to leave. The word that came to me was “Let no one rob you of your prize: Christ.” I realized my devotion and love to the Lord was often replaced by devotion to Lee and the ministry. It was a mixture .

What I had given myself to had fallen into something sectarian and corrupted. Adultery had been tolerated and even the perpetrator exalted. That's when many leadings ones, pillars in the church: John Ingalls, Bill Mallon, John So, John Smith, Hudson Du, Paul Ma, Joseph Fung, Jospeh Chu, Virginia Say, Ken Unger, Ned Nossaman, Don Hardy, Don Rutledge, to name just a few, left or were kicked out.

This was followed by message after message that the ones who left were lepers and full of poison. Avoid them. Don’t talk with them.

After the concerned saints left, things took off where the local churches in practicality became Living Stream Ministry churches, and everything became centralized.The focus was on the work, expansion, trainings, full timers. On paper there was still the teaching of gathering on the ground on oneness for all believers, but in practice it becomes another sectarian centralized system, though filled with many seeking saints.

I left thirty years ago and have not thought much about the “Recovery” in many years, though I often pray for the saints whom I love. The recent activity and reading the reports of hundreds of young people who have left, some giving up the faith, has renewed a hope in me the Lord may be shaking things. Why? Because He is the Head. My prayer is the saints would come back to the simplicity and purity towards Christ, allow God to shake whatever can be shaken, bring the whole thing back to first love: Christ. You may say I am full of judgment, but the Lord knows my heart. Blessings.

It's important for people to step forward and speak truth to power. Earthly, temporal power often rules by fear. But all power ultimately belongs to God.

Jesus gave us a clear pattern: if someone stumbles you, go to them privately and the Lord can cover it. If they refuse you, bring a witness. If they refuse you both, tell it to the church. Witness Lee and his minions repeatedly refused to hear the private witnesses.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Trapped

...there are a few of us who are wondering the same thing, Raptor.......waiting to see the significance and scope of this thing.

Revelation 2:24,25 Now I say to the rest of you in Thyatira, to you who do not hold to her teaching and have not learned Satan’s so-called deep secrets, ‘I will not impose any other burden on you, except to hold on to what you have until I come.’

The unaware are held to a different standard than those either responsible or silently complicit, but those still unaware are becoming fewer and fewer.

[byHismercy]

I was listening to a very precious testimony video on YouTube given by a couple, husband and wife, who told of their excommunication from the SDA church following their eye opening revelation that God afforded them through His word.....they came to understand that Jesus is the Son of God. As they wrapped their minds and hearts around this awesome fact ( this was news to them despite being raised in the 'church').....they became excited to share/look into/study this matter with their close friends in their church. That was the beginning of the end for these new believers in the SDA church.

The part that struck me, aside from Gods' awesome ability to reach seeking hearts, was their words about how they were counciled by their elders there. I wrote it down because I was shocked to hear something so familiar coming from another deceived group....they told them to lay down their consciences for church unity, church authority, and the body model-that is-submission to the body. They were forbidden to speak of or share anything they had discovered about who Christ really is....if they would comply, they could remain in the church.

Church unity
Church authority
Submission to the body

All tactics used on me. Funny part is, the Lord used a person I considered a friend, who was a SDA member, to open my eyes and heart to lying doctrine, and expose that cult before I faced my own situation in the LC. He set me up to search the scriptures for the truth, He gave me such a burden for this friend, which I carried until the day she firmly closed the door on any fellowship with me. That was the day the burden left me. I had complete peace about that. But the whole time, probably over about a year, He was teaching me, He was drawing me to His word, His fellowship and light was pouring out on me....and I wonder at that, now. I wonder if it was all to rescue me and the kids from our LC deception. It still blows my mind that Satan was using those LC doctrines to enslave me. I still feel shock that all the cultish ways I was recognizing in other groups were in heavy use in what I considered to be my church, where I thought they had the handle on the truth.

If only they were honest about who they believed WLee to be. I never heard any of that. They know to hide all that MOTA, apostle of the age, Oracle of God, acting God junk.....they know they are elevating Lee above Jesus. That is why they hide it. So Christian's won't flee their group.

And praise God in Christ Jesus!! He is our certitude! Below is a link to their testimony.

https://youtu.be/7CRbMiOWRgA

[aron]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

I was shocked to hear something so familiar coming from another deceived group....they told them to lay down their consciences for church unity, church authority, and the body model-that is-submission to the body. They were forbidden to speak of or share anything they had discovered about who Christ really is....if they would comply, they could remain in the church.

Church unity
Church authority
Submission to the body

All tactics used on me.

Same tactics used on Luther, on Wesley. "Don't despise the Body and its Sacrements" became a veil for ignorance and a vehicle for corruption. The church member knows something is quite off, yet is forbidden to think about it or discuss it openly.

The FB post has something like 395 replies in less than a week, so obviously it touched a nerve. Even discounting the author's replies to others, there's been a lot of activity, some rather substantive. People have been waiting for this.

The other thing that's heartening to me is that the letter was penned by a woman. The disconnect of simultaneously lauding the spiritual voices and contributions of ME Barber, E Fischbacher, J Penn-Lewis, M McDonough, P Wang, D Yu et al whilst dismissing and silencing the voices of all contemporary female members could hardly be more glaring. But then again, it's one of those things 'we' don't discuss.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

The FB post has something like 395 replies in less than a week, so obviously it touched a nerve. Even discounting the author's replies to others, there's been a lot of activity, some rather substantive. People have been waiting for this.

Not being familiar with all the dynamics of facebook, could this be the first LC testimony posted there?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Not being familiar with all the dynamics of facebook, could this be the first LC testimony posted there?

There was a lengthy post on FB in 2014 about the DYL sect by a disaffected former member, who had quit a promising military career to serve full-time, and rose until the stench of corruption (nepotism & money-laundering) drove him out.

If you do a search under 'donguismo' you'll find the thread on this forum. I think the last post was in 2017. For LSM, DYL's 'crime' was to take a page out of their playbook and declare himself as having the ministry of the age.

[Cal]

This letter is a breakthrough, not just personally for Joanna and Greg, but in the fight against the LIE that is the "Lord's Recovery."

Joanna obviously loves the Lord with all her heart. She is also very intelligent and a gifted writer. Her letter is well-thought-out, well-written, clear, and convincing. It is not emotional or histrionic. It sincerely and effectively exposes a deeply twisted and evil system.

The insidiousness of the LR has always been based in that it combines good and even breakthrough teachings with very dark means of control. The good stuff convinces followers to turn over control, the dark stuff consolidates and enforces that control relentlessly and mercilessly.

Joanna's letter reminds me of how powerful the deception is, and how subtlety and effectively Satan can twist the minds of well-meaning people he fools into leaving the word of God for someone's "interpreted word."

Keep in mind that we, God's people, are in a SPIRITUAL BATTLE. The evil, controlling aspects of the LR, those things that make it an aberrant, abusive and damaging spiritual group are not, ultimately, intended to glorify Witness Lee, enrich the leadership, spread the "Recovery" or fulfill God's purpose, or any other reasons the deceived and controlled leadership puts forth.

They are intended to imprison strong seekers of the Lord and keep them from God's very best for them.

SATAN ENSNARES LAZY CHRISTIANS IN THE WORLD.
HE ENSNARES SEEKING CHRISTIANS IN CONTROLLING GROUPS.

Satan knows that strong seekers, when they truly discover God's plan for them, will be his ultimate demise. He know he must stop them, and that the world cannot entice them. So he created controlling groups to ensnare them.

The controlling LR system has been engineered by Satan, our real enemy--the one we are called to resist, in life, ministry and especially in PRAYER.

Make no mistake. This is a SPIRITUAL BATTLE. It will not be won just by talking. We must pray. Each one of us, if we care about this issue, must fight the spiritual battle in prayer.

The leaders and sycophants of the LR are deceived, but they are not our enemies. Our real enemies are the evil, invisible spiritual forces behind the deception, and the indispensable way to defeat them is PRAYER. A lot of other things can help: Argument, testimony, encouragement, support, even my silly little MOTA comic. But without prayer everything else will not be enough. Satan never goes down without a fight, and the fight is engaged in prayer.

May we all commit ourselves to pray more about this issue.

Blessings to Joanna and her family, and to all others who refuse to be imprisoned by the enemy's wiles.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Igzy

The controlling LR system has been engineered by Satan, our real enemy--the one we are called to resist, in life, ministry and especially in PRAYER.

Make no mistake. This is a SPIRITUAL BATTLE. It will not be won just by talking. We must pray. Each one of us, if we care about this issue, must fight the spiritual battle in prayer.

The leaders and sycophants of the LR are deceived, but they are not our enemies. Our real enemies are the evil, invisible spiritual forces behind the deception, and the indispensable way to defeat them is PRAYER. A lot of other things can help: Argument, testimony, encouragement, support, even my silly little MOTA comic. But without prayer everything else will not be enough. Satan never goes down without a fight, and the fight is engaged in prayer.

May we all commit ourselves to pray more about this issue.

This was just posted on the FB page:

Dear ones, I had a deep realization this morning how we need to pray for what the Lord is doing in this days (now that He is answering the prayer of 1,000's of former members praying for the rest of us for decades) How much more freeing does the Lord want to do NOW?! Let us be faithful to intercede for the many more needing deliverance. And just one more thing: 'TIS MERCY ALL- IMMENSE AND FREE THAT GOD DELIVERED ME FROM HIS "RECOVERY". I love HIM and I love you all.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by aron

This was just posted on the FB page:

Dear ones, I had a deep realization this morning how we need to pray for what the Lord is doing in this days (now that He is answering the prayer of 1,000's of former members praying for the rest of us for decades) How much more freeing does the Lord want to do NOW?! Let us be faithful to intercede for the many more needing deliverance. And just one more thing: 'TIS MERCY ALL- IMMENSE AND FREE THAT GOD DELIVERED ME FROM HIS "RECOVERY". I love HIM and I love you all.

I will offer a prayer here:

Dear Father,

You love all your children and have a wonderful plan for them. Because Satan, your and our invisible enemy, is so desperate, he will devise any kind of trap, using any means necessary, to stop it. He will even distort your truth to ensnare your people in a system which falsely claims to be your "best."

Father, I pray against this. I pray you fully expose the devil's deception employed in the system called "the Lord's Recovery." I pray that you protect, free and heal your precious children who have been trapped and held by its systematized error of half-truths, complete lies, false threats and fear-mongering.

Father, you never condemn, but you often correct. Condemnation is vague and full of hopelessness. Correction is specific and full of hope. Condemnation is of the devil. The despair Joanna has faced was 100% not of you, but 100% of the devil. It was not caused by her resisting the truth, but by Satan's terror that she would discover the truth. So Father, I pray in your Son's name that you would send a squadron of angels to protect her and her family. I pray she would have the courage and resolve of a lion to stand against the deceiver. May she overflow with grace, love, faith and hope. Lead her into solid, healthy fellowship. Protect her from temptation. Keep her and her family safe. Do this for all those who are leaving that movement.

I pray, Father, for all the LR people to be set free. I pray that the leadership would fall on their faces in correction, repentance and sorrow. The dam is now leaking. The cracks in it are spreading. May it soon collapse, and may the system of lies and imprisonment it holds up drain into hell where it belongs.

Father, protect your children whom you love. In your Son Jesus' name I pray. Amen.

[aron]

The same person I quoted earlier from FB just wrote:

"I believe with all my heart that this is the time. If after 47.5 years the Lord can deliver me, it may be a sign that there are many, many more to follow. Lord we ask you for this!"

Many are being delivered from bondage and oppression. Our times are in His hands. Praise the Lord.

[Weighingin]

We would hear that in the Lord's recovery, there was a "storm" every 10 years or so. The last one was the GLA and Brazil quaratine crisis. That was in 2006, more than 10 years ago. So I was wondering when the next storm would be, as more than 10 years have passed. This message from the sister leaving the recovery after 38 years may be it. Besides this forum, I have never seen, in one venue, so many responses from those who have left. Others are on the verge.
As others have said, prayer is needed to sort out everything and defeat Satan.

[Weighingin]

I needed to clarify that the open letter message is not a storm in itself, but it imay be a factor for a storm to start and grow.
Please, anyone that can express some thing along this line better than me.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Weighingin

I needed to clarify that the open letter message is not a storm in itself, but it imay be a factor for a storm to start and grow.
Please, anyone that can express some thing along this line better than me.

I'll try.

If this letter from the Casteel's causes devoted LC members around the country to ask questions, and demand answers, from their leadership, concerning abuses of all sorts, including sexual abuse, covered up for decades -- then we may have another "storm."

Note that every past 10-year "storm" has begun this way. None of them were ever really "persecution" carried out by "ambitious rebels." That never happened folks. Read both sides of the story. Of course, LC leadership, even Nee and Lee, would always spin the narrative to their advantage in order to deceive their followers. But mark my word, every so-called "storm" in the history of the Recovery came about because the members of the LC's demanded accountability from their leaders.

This is absolutely what the Blended brothers fear most.

This forum is filled with the stories of ex-members who demanded leadership accountability. Entire books have been written. Each and every time LC leadership has decided to amputate whole sections of the body of Christ -- conveniently called "quarantines," as if it was these members who were sick -- in order to protect their own hides, reputations, and finances.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Igzy

This letter is a breakthrough, not just personally for Joanna and Greg, but in the fight against the LIE that is the "Lord's Recovery."

Joanna obviously loves the Lord with all her heart. She is also very intelligent and a gifted writer. Her letter is well-thought-out, well-written, clear, and convincing. It is not emotional or histrionic. It sincerely and effectively exposes a deeply twisted and evil system.

The insidiousness of the LR has always been based in that it combines good and even breakthrough teachings with very dark means of control. The good stuff convinces followers to turn over control, the dark stuff consolidates and enforces that control relentlessly and mercilessly.

Joanna's letter reminds me of how powerful the deception is, and how subtlety and effectively Satan can twist the minds of well-meaning people he fools into leaving the word of God for someone's "interpreted word."

Keep in mind that we, God's people, are in a SPIRITUAL BATTLE. The evil, controlling aspects of the LR, those things that make it an aberrant, abusive and damaging spiritual group are not, ultimately, intended to glorify Witness Lee, enrich the leadership, spread the "Recovery" or fulfill God's purpose, or any other reasons the deceived and controlled leadership puts forth.

They are intended to imprison strong seekers of the Lord and keep them from God's very best for them.

SATAN ENSNARES LAZY CHRISTIANS IN THE WORLD.
HE ENSNARES SEEKING CHRISTIANS IN CONTROLLING GROUPS.

Satan knows that strong seekers, when they truly discover God's plan for them, will be his ultimate demise. He know he must stop them, and that the world cannot entice them. So he created controlling groups to ensnare them.

The controlling LR system has been engineered by Satan, our real enemy--the one we are called to resist, in life, ministry and especially in PRAYER.

Make no mistake. This is a SPIRITUAL BATTLE. It will not be won just by talking. We must pray. Each one of us, if we care about this issue, must fight the spiritual battle in prayer.

The leaders and sycophants of the LR are deceived, but they are not our enemies. Our real enemies are the evil, invisible spiritual forces behind the deception, and the indispensable way to defeat them is PRAYER. A lot of other things can help: Argument, testimony, encouragement, support, even my silly little MOTA comic. But without prayer everything else will not be enough. Satan never goes down without a fight, and the fight is engaged in prayer.

May we all commit ourselves to pray more about this issue.

Blessings to Joanna and her family, and to all others who refuse to be imprisoned by the enemy's wiles.

Wow brother. I am in complete agreement with this. Today I battled inwardly with memories of rejection and feelings of not matching up, mostly coming from interactions with the ones in the LC. Finally the Lord just showed me the enemy in the discouragement within. He wants to crush me entire, and the reason is because I met the true God, Jesus Christ. I received Him that day and now He lives in me. This fact makes me a mighty force in the Lords' army. Satan would love it if I would believe the message I got from the LC. Satan would love for me to be in defeat.....not sharing the truth. Jesus Christ is Lord. He died for to reconcile any who would believe in His death to be purchased by His blood sacrifice, and reconcile us to the Father. Any one out there who doesn't have enough faith in this fact, don't let even that stop you from coming to Jesus. He came to me when the best I had to offer Him was desperation and hope, hope that He could save me. Now He is my faith. He is my love, and He is my obedience. He is my only way to come before the Father. He is the Fathers' pleasure and now Jesus makes me the Fathers' pleasure. Let the control tactics and the exalted ministry be put to shame. Let Jesus the Christ be exalted forever. And yes, let us pray for His light to shine through the enemies deception, in the LC and everywhere.

[aron]

Ted

Originally Posted by Ohio

...every so-called "storm" in the history of the Recovery came about because the members of the LC's demanded accountability from their leaders..

When I read the letter from Jo Casteel, I saw a person trying to reclaim their life and thoughts after 38 years of total domination by another.

In the LC, to attempt to think is termed rebellion against God. If you notice something isn't right you have guilty feelings because you must be "off" and your soul is "dark". This makes people borderline psychotic because clearly things are not perfect but they are supposed to pretend they are. If they point out problems they are called "negative" and "leprous" and so forth. The only recourse is a kind of split personality where the "real you" is kept safely locked in a box and the "fake you" is on display for all to see. If you try to bring out the "real you" the negative sanctions are overwhelming.

Earlier I went on the LSM FB page, and they'd put the banners from the recent Chinese conference. One banner was about "Body-revelation" leading to "Body-consciousness" in which "individualistic thought is ruled out". So the Deputy God (DG) can have individualistic thought and start a motor home company with church members' money. Then when the money is gone, DG can say, "None of your business" if the investors want to know what happened. DG can put his admittedly unspiritual son as Office Manager, then when the son repeatedly molests the office help, the DG railroads all those who notice and speak up.

In all this I see individualistic (i.e. selfish) thought from the DG. Yet no one else is supposed to? And if we notice this we're guilty of thought-crime?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Weighingin

I needed to clarify that the open letter message is not a storm in itself, but it imay be a factor for a storm to start and grow.
Please, anyone that can express some thing along this line better than me.

Weighingin,

I understand your use of the word "storm" here, but I have another perspective. I think the "storm" began when Witness Lee and/or Watchman Nee began to lie, deceive and misrepresent the truth of God's Word. We are reacting to the storm and we've had enough.

The accusation of causing a "storm" has been used against those of us who are speaking truth to power. Greg and Jo Casteel have spoken truth to power in the most powerful way I have ever seen...ever. The Casteels didn't start this storm, they have finally had ENOUGH (like we did)! The Casteels have pulled back the curtain on Witness Lee, et al, who have practiced lies, deceit and cover-up since Lee's ministry began...really beginning with Watchman Nee. This is the storm.

Worth noting is the spirit and tone of what Jo wrote: no bitterness. She gives account of her personal despair and depression. When she saw the truth, she was set free. She was not embittered by it. She thought it was her own fault. I thought the same thing. Then, the lights came on.

Ephesians 6:12-13 12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

The Casteels, and each of us, need to be armed with the whole armor of God that we can stand in the evil day. Part of the armor is to pray, as Igzy stated. Jo has given us the armor as truth in a clear, concise document that covers all the bases. We can see what happens on FB, but I don't see anyone saying the Casteels are misrepresenting the truth, misrepresenting the ministry of Witness Lee, misrepresenting what's going on in the LC's. Their only response seems to be personal attacks of the "sit down and shut up" type. It's likely this is the only case they can make because they all know something of the truth of the Casteel Open Letter.

I keep reading this Casteel Open Letter ever 2-3 days. Every time I read it, I find something I missed the first 3 times!

Thanks Jo and Greg---

Nell

[Cal]

One of the keys to freedom from the LR is to realize that nobody in the movement has any real authority over you.

Yes, if you are in their meeting halls or trainings you need to submit to their rules. That's just common sense. But outside of that, in your personal human or spiritual life, they have no authority. The movement has no authority.

This is true of any spiritual leaders.

This is probably the freedom moment that Joanna experienced, when it suddenly dawned on her that God alone is her Master and he has no deputies.

The LR is all bluster. People are held there by fear. Every one of them is. If anyone tells you they would never leave the LR but they are not held there by fear, you are talking to a liar.

I read something recently that jumped out at me. It said:

FEAR IS A PRAYER TO THE DEVIL

That's pretty shocking. But I believe it is true. To live in fear is to sell your soul to the devil. Don't misunderstand me. Healthy fear and respect for God is scriptural. But fear of a religious system and its advocates is completely bogus. Fear of facing judgement and outer darkness because you deviated from "the ministry" is straight from the pit.

I can prove it. In order to respond to the claims of anyone who says they have the truth, a person by definition must engage his conscience and inner being. This implies that the conscience and inner being are the final arbitrators of everything.

For someone to tell you "believe me and ignore your conscience" is absurd because they are appealing to your conscience to do so. So the conscience must be respected. The only thing that remains then is reasoned, fair discussion. If you believe you have the truth, then make the reasoned case in the arena of public ideas. Don't hide behind walls and threaten your followers and throw bombs over the wall and refuse to address public questions about how you do things. In short, don't deal in fear. Any group that does that, and the LR is one of them, is by definition a cult.

I saw a documentary on Scientology. It is one of the worst cults in the world. But one of the requirements of the group is that members always be "positive" about it. Ex-members recall grinning ear-to-ear and talking about how great things were when they were dying inside and felt like their heads would split open. (When you feel unsettled by the poster boy for Scientology, Tom Cruise, wearing his somewhat maniacal grin, that's what you are seeing.)

But the fact is the LR has many parallels to Scientology and other such groups, because they are all based on the same lie--that some leader is smarter than you and has been put in authority over you and you need to devote your life to obeying him. Whether it's David Miscavige or Witness Lee or Titus Chu or whomever, it's all the same lie. Yes, on the one hand they want you to be "happy," because it's good for business. But they have no problem settling for fear.

God alone is our Master. We respect those he has raised up in the arena in which he has given them authority, which ends at the doorway of the organization they lead, which you can freely leave if your conscience dictates. If they have a problem with that then you know you were dealing with a spiritual abuser and that you made the right decision.

Get that straight and no one can ever control you.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Hi, ...I just recently began to learn about all the hidden history of the LR. To you all that have been aware of this for a while, how do you evaluate the impact of this letter from the Casteel´s and all the Facebook responses so far? I know there are many other documents from others and letters, etc., but how do I put this letter and responses into perspective?

In other words, does this open FB post with so many saints supporting and confirming with their own experiences seem like something really big is happening and gaining momentum, like the cat is really out of the bag now, or maybe just not yet?

Thanks!
(me? just a brother in the church for years and years looking to the Lord to understand.....)

Welcome to the forum, Raptor!

I too was active for decades in the LC's. The Midwest quarantines forced me to examine both Brethren history and our own history. The "glorious Recovery" got exposed for what it wasn't. I got to see the "man behind the curtain."

A while back I was surprised to see how many of our 2nd generation had become "social justice warriors." Facebook comments only confirmed that this is more widespread than than I thought. Kind of makes sense. I decided that I needed to understand our current culture war in order to even talk to some of these young people. I do keep social media on a short leash, knowing how contentious it can be.

I suspect that FB has long had regular conversations between ex-members. Joanna Casteel, however, has put into writing the intense inner turmoil which the most devoted members face. In my view most LC leaders just live with the cognitive dissonance and blatant hypocrisies of that system, whereas she was far too genuine and sincere to accept that course of action. Usually guys can "compartmentalize" thoughts better than the ladies, and in this case it's not a good thing.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Raptor

In other words, does this open FB post with so many saints supporting and confirming with their own experiences seem like something really big is happening and gaining momentum, like the cat is really out of the bag now, or maybe just not yet?

No one can know for sure. But when these kinds of things break, they can move very quickly. Remember the Soviet Union? They kept up the charade and damage control as long as possible. But eventually a critical mass of citizens realized that the Party was wearing no clothes, and it all fell apart.

The wounded Titanic sat slanted in the water for hours, seemingly stabilized, until it suddenly went vertical and plunged to the ocean floor

I believe that's the way it will happen in the LR. Many will finally just get sick of the Blendeds and their clueless BS, realize they aren't wearing any clothes, and stop fearing them. The Internet will play a big role. Members that people know and respect will speak out and make a move. More will be emboldened. The critical mass will be reached.

The human spirit will win out. We were made to yearn for freedom and to chafe under oppression. Eventually enough is enough and the worm turns. That's the Minsky Moment.

[tentmaker]

In April of this year I read through the “Ministry of the Word” magazine (“The Ministry of the Word,” “The Overcomers,” Volume 16, Number 12, December 2012) on the overcomers in Thyatira, Sardis, and Philadelphia. Regarding the Roman Catholic Church I read on page 14,

“They may not come out of her into the Lord’s recovery. The Lord may not intend for them to come out…”

I about fell out of my chair the moment I read that. We have always been told that the Lord’s recovery is not a movement and that any believer anywhere could be in the Lord’s recovery. The sentence of not coming into the Lord’s recovery made it very clear that it actually was a movement that you could “come out of” and “into.” If recovery was something that the Lord was doing inwardly amongst all Christians, it wasn’t something you could “come out of” and “into.” Making the Lord’s recovery a movement was repeated on page 29,

“we are not narrow, saying that the overcomers are only in the Lord’s recovery.”

So, the Lord has overcomers amongst all Christians, but somehow their inner being is not being recovered? How could they be an overcomer then?

I've been considering this for a few days now and thought to say something about it. I read that portion of the ministry magazine you referred to, and I re-read the entire comment above. This is a bit delicate. The speaker who gave the message was R.K., Ron Kangas. He said the words “may not” two times. The term “may not” means (to me) that it could happen or it could not happen. I do see his side of the matter. The Lord may want those in RCC, and many, many others (outside the LC) to stay where he placed them. I most certainly believe he can do the work in them. How? It’s his working not yours or mine, or anyone else's. We can mess it up though. Regarding “overcomers”, I do not believe that the WL/LC is the only “church” or place where one could grow and develop to full overcoming maturity. The real freedom to truly enjoy Christ is too limited there. The real riches in life are found in Christ and his Word.

Considering your situation in the LC I understand where you’re coming from. I have been around the WL/LC since 1976. My wife and I raised 4 children there, from birth to college, all 4. My oldest is 42 now. Three of the four are “out” with two of them very damaged by, I would say, “local control”. My children became good, excellent people, but the two will not consider even a visit back. Not happening. I learned a lot from all of them! I saw different sides of certain ones (mostly leaders), that which abhors (angers really) me, because of their being so legal and religious, among other things. I looked back at myself, my history, and cannot believe nor understand how religious I too became, mostly from 1980-2006! or so. I want out of her, as the Lord calls, too!! I will perhaps share more later - I just don’t feel to do so right now.

To Greg and Jo (and all), genuine Grace to you in your journey ahead. The Lord is with you even if you think he's not. He did not bring us this far for nothing.

[aron]

Another letter posted on FB yesterday, with a link to the Casteel Open Letter.

HELLO

This post may not make sense or matter to about 90% of my fb friends but if you are curious read on.

REGARDING THE CHURCH LIFE

I just want to take a second to say that I’ve had many wonderful moments with the lovely people I’ve met in the last almost 5 years of my life. Meeting with “the saints” brought many good experiences.

Many times I was in awe of the fellowship, and just the personalities, of fellow believers that I met who were so awesome to me. However, I often did feel like I wasn’t good enough, spiritual enough, mature enough, and overall I just wasn’t happy. I conformed to the way of thinking, dressing, talking , and being, and none of it was me, and I always felt like a fake. I don’t know, even with me feeling that way I brushed it off and kept going, kept meeting, because I believed it was the way. It felt right even when it felt wrong/off.

I’ve always been really good at taking orders, and I’m easily guilted into things, like going to meetings, or conferences/trainings when I really couldn’t afford to go. At this time in my life though I want to learn to be independent, make choices for myself, to learn to trust my own judgement and conscience, and to pursue a way of living that will sustain me. With all of this being said I don’t think I can comfortably attend anymore home meetings.

I still love all the brothers and sisters that I’ve met as they’ve played a huge part in my life as a young adult, I just can’t support the ministry/organization.

Thank you Jo Casteel , for writing this wonderful letter, and for sharing so much more information in the comments on your original post. I am so thankful. I really didn’t know what to do with all of this, but as I’ve been following along in the comments in your post, the more I read the more I can’t ignore it all. It really is not an easy decision. So, thank you for going before me and making it a little easier. I love you so so much!

Below is a very well written letter with valuable information regarding “The Local Churches”, living stream ministry, and “the Lord’s Recovery,” and how it is a cult, and though seemingly so wonderful and delightful, is in fact filled with corruption, and death to individuality and the cares for anything outside of “the Lord’s move on the earth.”

Much love to anyone who reads this letter, especially anyone currently meeting!

There's some mind-boggling stuff on that FB page. Young people (yes, I'm 'old') saying what it's like. Look at their world through their eyes for a minute.

502 comments in 9 days, plus a lot of links. People were waiting for this letter.

[Weighingin]

Thank you, Ohio and Nell for your response to my "storms" statement. I believed the LSm side that the storms were caused by dissenting, ambitious, offended,
rebellious, etc. ones. In recent years, I have seen that there were other factors involved, to say the least. It finally struck me that they were never wrong, if they even considered what these brothers brought up, they never admitted it.
I had thought that the 2006 actions were right. But only within the past couple of years, did I actually see how wrong those actions were, mainly by the results:
division, hurts, confusion etc. Ohio writing about these factors with the quarantine, caused to start thinking critically about it.
Anyways, I just found it interesting that these had occurred in 10-year spans and there hadn't been one since 2006.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by tentmaker

I want out of her, as the Lord calls, too!! I will perhaps share more later - I just don’t feel to do so right now.

tentmaker,

Blessings to you and your family! For us "older ones" life begins today. I pray the Lord encourages and guides you. He still has great plans for you. The adventure is not over and has not even peaked. Keeping praying and believing. Our Father will comfort and keep you. More than you ask or think is ahead!

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by tentmaker

I've been considering this for a few days now and thought to say something about it. I read that portion of the ministry magazine you referred to, and I re-read the entire comment above. This is a bit delicate. The speaker who gave the message was R.K., Ron Kangas. He said the words “may not” two times. The term “may not” means (to me) that it could happen or it could not happen. I do see his side of the matter. The Lord may want those in RCC, and many, many others (outside the LC) to stay where he placed them. I most certainly believe he can do the work in them. How? It’s his working not yours or mine, or anyone else's. We can mess it up though. Regarding “overcomers”, I do not believe that the WL/LC is the only “church” or place where one could grow and develop to full overcoming maturity. The real freedom to truly enjoy Christ is too limited there. The real riches in life are found in Christ and his Word.

Hi tentmaker,

I understand what Jo Casteel's point meant, and I understand what yours means too. I think you both are making separate points about the same sentence.

Your point seems to be about that it could happen or could not happen (in the sense of permissiveness). In other words, Ron's use of the words "may not" might be read as "are not allowed to"....i.e. "They are not allowed to come out of her into the Lord's recovery." But your point seems to be that "may not" in this case isn't a matter of being allowed, but is a matter of possibility, as allowed according to the Lord's intention. He wants those where he places them.

I think Jo's point is that the fact that coming in and out is even possible showed her that "the recovery" is not the recovery work the Lord is doing all over the earth, from which no one can come in or out of, but is actually a "movement" from and into which people can come in and out. The very fact that anyone can come into or out of the recovery means it is not the overall work that the Lord is doing over the earth, but a movement.

Not sure if that helps or makes it worse!

Trapped

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Earlier I went on the LSM FB page, and they'd put the banners from the recent Chinese conference. One banner was about "Body-revelation" leading to "Body-consciousness" in which "individualistic thought is ruled out".

This is so pathetically manipulative.

We are commanded to love our neighbor and forgive them. The more we love and forgive others, the more God loves us and forgives us. Remember the Lord's prayer, "and forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us."

No where in the Bible are we required to live before man, obsessing over what the other members of the body might possibly be thinking about us. What ever happened to "walking by the Spirit?"

It's no wonder that those in the LC can proudly proclaim they have no rules, no dress codes, yet they all dress the same and get the same haircut. And God forbid that some sister gets it cut too short! They live their lives in fear of being marked out as being "independent, non-Body-consciousness, and individualistic."

"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the saints, and love the Lord, or he will cleave to the saints, and despise the Lord. You cannot serve God and man." -- Ohio's practical up-to-date LC paraphrased version.

[aron]

A post by one who was in leadership in the LC, from '72 to '89.

"I would follow up with brother Lee was not a deceiver. God used him. He loved the Lord. In the early days we would leave his Wed night sharing full of joy, desiring more of Jesus. But eventually things changed and many of us would leave his sharing feeling condemned, especially during the perfecting training years. W Lee really did believe God only used one man at a time. He believed the mantle was passed to him after W Nee passed. Also Lee felt he had neglected his children growing up so tried his best to care for them later. This was his downfall for it was used by the enemy to bring in corruption when immoral sin was discovered and not dealt with.

Bro Lee also believed he was the deputy authority, commander in chief, and God’s unique oracle for the present time. His contempt for contemporaries was always apparent. He often put down other leading brothers who had their own ministry that the saints enjoyed. What can we conclude? Bro Lee was a man used by God who seems to have gone too far in his estimation of himself and allowed an empire to be built up around his ministry. Church history is full of such gifted men who went too far. May we learn the lesson to never build up our own empire, stay humble, stay faithful to the Word, keep the Lord first and never allow another to replace Him in our devotion. These are days to be encouraged. The Lord is more real than ever. It is the Father’s good pleasure to give us the kingdom."

[Ohio]

But WL made a career of warning us of all of these specific dangers in other ministers.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by aron

Bro Lee also believed he was the deputy authority, commander in chief, and God’s unique oracle for the present time.

This is the bottom line. One either believes this about Lee or one doesn't. It is not something that can be proved by any logical means. Believing it is an act of faith. Of course, one's understanding of spiritual things should be informed by the Bible and sound reason. But two people who believe they know the Bible and are reasonable can still disagree on things.

This is why Jesus said, by their fruit you will know them. Examine the fruit of say Billy Graham and compare to Lee's fruit.

Besides some people believing Graham hobnobbed a little too much with the political leaders, Graham's slate is clean. Untold millions touched by the gospel through him. A genuinely holy life so impressive that he was honored by being only the fourth private citizen to lie in state in the Capitol Rotunda. Graham was not a man-pleaser, but he gained the respect of even unbelievers.

Lee clearly had a lot of potential. He had a unique way of producing precise, clear, life-giving teaching. But his megalomaniac and self-serving side produced so many abuses and scandals, and a legacy so mixed and confusing, that people don't know what to do with him, so he has been filed away as a strange quirk of history by most.

My point is that I do not believe that God would expect his people to consider such a flawed person, or any other person for that matter, as some kind of Minister of the Age. It just doesn't make any sense. It's always possible that someone God used greatly can go bad. So, how does one decide when that has happened in the MOTA world? For the LR they have no answer, or their answer is the current leaders will tell you.

Really? That's it? We're supposed to follow this movement blindly because Lee decided he was MOTA and some other people believe it, too? And because of that alone we are supposed to consider any alternative service we give to God as second-rate, tainted and probably worthless?

Does anyone really think that's how God operates? But that is the crazy LR mentality.

Reason doesn't work with these people because the basis of their beliefs is not reasonable. It's a primitive, visceral, ultimately fear-based thing.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

My point is that I do not believe that God would expect his people to consider such a flawed person, or any other person for that matter, as some kind of Minister of the Age. It just doesn't make any sense. It's always possible that someone God used greatly can go bad. So, how does one decide when that has happened? For the LR they have no answer, or their answer is the current leaders will tell you.

Really? That's it? We're supposed to follow this movement blindly because Lee decided he was MOTA and some other people believe it, too? And because of that alone we are supposed to consider any alternative service we give to God as second-rate, tainted and probably worthless?

Does anyone really think that's how God operates? But that is the crazy LR mentality.

Reason doesn't work with these people because the basis of their beliefs is not reasonable, it's a visceral ultimately fear-based thing.

You would think that LC'ers (like myself) would have learned something from Papal history. Obviously the original leaders in the church in Rome, perhaps starting with Peter, were serious men of God. They loved God, His word, His people, and many suffered for this. Today they have a papal lineage spanning 2 millennium. They were not all bad, especially in the beginning.

Yet Catholic Popes, Brethren Oracles, and Recovery MOTA's had at least two defining characteristics in common. Firstly, they and their minions thought more highly of themselves than the Bible ever permitted. Secondly, they used a distorted oneness of the body of Christ to squelch all opinion to the contrary.

As the Casteel's experience has reminded us, how far will we go to maintain this distorted oneness? Every reformer in history faced this. Every LC'er faces this. How far does blind loyalty take us? How long do we reject the troubling of our conscience? How long do we remain silent in the face of hypocrisy? Obviously Lee's distorted views of oneness were a prison to enslave the minds of the saints.

Jo Casteel's story, along with hundreds of others, shows us that it is the word of God and His Spirit in our conscience which alone safeguard the child of God. The Casteel's will probably lose their church social life, much like the Jewish believers during Jesus' time were cast out of the Synagogue, but is that not the cost of freedom? As one poster keeps telling us, "Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive."

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Jo Casteel's story, along with hundreds of others, shows us that it is the word of God and His Spirit in our conscience which alone safeguard the child of God. The Casteel's will probably lose their church social life, much like the Jewish believers during Jesus' time were cast out of the Synagogue, but is that not the cost of freedom? .

Yes, all those pressures come to bear on you. Mental, emotional, social, identity, false condemnation. And the only thing that fights against them is that deep sense inside that the whole thing is not required by God. Yet the voices still attack. Satan above all does not care for reason, he only cares to deceive.

Eventually I had to pray, "Lord, I don't care about the LR! I think it's a bunch of crap! If it's the best you've got you can have it! If you want me there you'd better grab me by the scruff of my neck and drag me there, because I'm not going on my own!"

The Lord gently smiled and said, "Now you're beginning to understand."

[Ohio]

This FB post was touching:

For those of who’ve know me over the past decade, it will probably come to a shock to you that someone as outspoken as me has hidden one of the biggest parts of my life. I was raised in this group. Everything that this brave woman has written, was something that I too discovered, experienced and was bothered by. Her story is my story.

However I have never been able to write about it. And only have only been able to talk about it in a joking way after a few drinks.
This won’t concern most of you. But those of you who know me from before I left, I beg you to read this in its entirety. If you want to understand me, this is how you do it.
I am not backslidden.
I was not poisoned.
I was not too lazy to pay the price.
I did not, not see the vision of the recovery.
I was just not willing to settle.
And although many of these phobias common to people raised in groups like these, still follow me around. I am free and have been for ten years this summer.
Posting this is the bravest thing I’ve ever done.

She posted Jo's letter on her FB page and asked all to read it thru.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This FB post was touching:

She posted Jo's letter on her FB page and asked all to read it thru.

Father, use Facebook to spread your truth, and comfort and protect these precious people who are finally telling their stories.

May more speak out!

Oh, happy day!

[Peter Debelak]

Originally Posted by aron

Bro Lee also believed he was the deputy authority, commander in chief, and God’s unique oracle for the present time.

It is no accident that the very first book published by the BBs after Witness Lee's death was about "spiritual authority" - emphasizing "The Deputy Authority" and "The Wise Master Builder."

This was to set the frame and the emphasis going forward. It was a precursor to the "One Publication" and a culture of the elimination of the individual in whom they somehow still claim the Spirit resides.

To me, this remains the most insidious and invidious aspects of the movement. Once you steal away one's individual responsibility to God, they become open to all manner of manipulation. All other abuses (financial, physical, psychological, familial) derive from this. It is the soil they set.

Jo's letter and many others who leave are simply individuals re-establishing a right relationship with God and/or themselves as autonomous human beings.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

Jo's letter and many others who leave are simply individuals re-establishing a right relationship with God and/or themselves as autonomous human beings.

Amen! What he said.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Weighingin

.
I believed the LSm side that the storms were caused by dissenting, ambitious, offended,
rebellious, etc. ones.

That has been an endless narrative. The go-to explanation why so and so left the local churches.
If we operate on facts, where are the facts to support the LSM narrative?
Never have been any.
Rather I suggest the LSM narrative is projection how they feel.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Terry

If we operate on facts, where are the facts to support the LSM narrative?

Never have been any. Rather I suggest the LSM narrative is projection how they feel.

Right - the LSM narrative "This is so" actually means, "I wish this were so". Or, "If this were so, that would feel good. But if it wasn't so, that wouldn't feel good." Voila! Pseudo-reality. Something is summarily declared to be so. There's no independent or objective corroboration given. Just a statement that something is so. The oracle has spoken. End of discussion.

From The Spokesman-Review Dec 17 1978

Although Grueller [sic] denies the Local Church is making a concerted effort to discredit Rapoport, ex-members say Rapoport is being represented as a Judas and one who tried to achieve more authority.

Rapoport said his disenchantment with the movement began about 18 months ago when Lee refused to act on his demand that Lee's son, Philip, be removed as head of the Living Stream Ministry after a church member accused Philip of an immoral act.

Attempts to reach Philip Lee for comment were unsuccessful. Witness Lee said his son does not like to answer such charges.

Witness Lee refused to act on Max Rapoport's demand. Why? Because he didn't want to, that's why. He's Witness Lee, the voice of God. That's the sum total of reality in the LC: if the oracle wants to do something he does, and if he doesn't want to, then he refuses. And by extension, "Philip Lee doesn't like to answer such charges" - I mean, who would? Certainly Philip didn't want to face the music. But that's apparently sufficient in the LC -- the oracle's son doesn't want to answer such charges. End of conversation. Kind of like Dad was with Sal Benoît.

"So subjective is my Christ in me..." Yes indeed, so subjective.... Christ is whatever you want Christ to be - how very convenient. And ten years later, someone else found the oracle's son in the same office doing the same "immoral act". Surprised?

[aron]

1. I recall reading the Publisher's Preface to the Second Edition of the Spiritual Man, supposedly the only book Watchman Nee ever wrote, where the publisher noted that much of the material was merely copied, unattributed, from others. But he said that was a Chinese custom to show appreciation. (I am going by memory here).

Here is the note from the CFP version of Spiritual Man. Watchman Nee's preface:

"I am not the first to advocate the teaching of the dividing of spirit and soul. Andrew Murray once said that what the church and individuals have to dread is the inordinate activity of the soul with its power of mind and will. F. B. Meyer declared that had he not known about the dividing of spirit and soul, he could not have imagined what his spiritual life would have been. Many others, such as Otto Stockmayer, Jessie Penn-Lewis, Evan Roberts, Madame Guyon, have given the same testimony. I have used their writings freely since we all have received the same commission from the Lord; therefore I have decided to forego notating their many references."

2. On this forum someone noted that much of Witness Lee's Life-study was apparently cribbed from a series of 19th-century Sunday School lessons.

Here:

Originally Posted by YP0534

I think perhaps Mr. Tomes missed Mr. Lee's actual source.

Compare:
http://books.google.com/books?id=Mtx...A145&lpg=PA145

Note the reference to "evergreen tree" which does not appear in the Vincent note.

I obviously haven't compared all these references and it doesn't alter the fact that there is an unattributed source or sources involved but this is, to my mind, even more eye-opening.

It looks to me like, at least for this example, the process began with review of Peloubet's Select Notes On The International Sunday School Lessons, a comparison with the Vincent material was done for thoroughness and clarity (that's where the word "destitute" came from, in addition to the St. John's bread point), and then a summarized and enhanced form of Peloubet's note became Lee's footnote on this topic...

and here:

Originally Posted by YP0534

Is anyone familiar with the matters referred to in these volumes?

http://books.google.com/books?id=aBUAAAAAYAAJ

http://books.google.com/books?id=96tJAAAAIAAJ

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

It is no accident that the very first book published by the BBs after Witness Lee's death was about "spiritual authority" - emphasizing "The Deputy Authority" and "The Wise Master Builder."

Peter, do you know the title of this book? If I could search by year published (I assume around 1997 or 1998) I would go looking myself.

Originally Posted by Peter Debelak

Once you steal away one's individual responsibility to God, they become open to all manner of manipulation. All other abuses (financial, physical, psychological, familial) derive from this. It is the soil they set.

And then add to this the ever-pervasive "We're not in the realm of right and wrong" and you get very troubling results.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Nell

We can see what happens on FB, but I don't see anyone saying the Casteels are misrepresenting the truth, misrepresenting the ministry of Witness Lee, misrepresenting what's going on in the LC's. Their only response seems to be personal attacks of the "sit down and shut up" type. It's likely this is the only case they can make because they all know something of the truth of the Casteel Open Letter.

I keep reading this Casteel Open Letter every 2-3 days. Every time I read it, I find something I missed the first 3 times!

One thing that I have felt was a useful perspective in the letter was the idea of informed consent. If someone is going to make a decision about their care, then they need to be informed of the various types of treatments and the costs, benefits, and risks of each.

Suppose a doctor had a financial connection to one type of medication, and therefore hid information about other options, or tried to minimize side effects and risks. Would that be ethical?

And yet look how much hiding goes on in the LC.

1. They hide their affiliation with LSM. "Oh, we are just lovers of Jesus".

2. They hide history. Many have passed decades in the LC, never having heard of the Daystar Motorhome Corporation or the huge negative effect it had on church morale.

3. Bias is sown liberally in all accounts. If anyone tries to critique the LSM that is an "attack" but if LSM points out flaws of others that's fine.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

From The Spokesman-Review Dec 17 1978

Witness Lee refused to act on Max Rapoport's demand. Why? Because he didn't want to, that's why. He's Witness Lee, the voice of God. That's the sum total of reality in the LC: if the oracle wants to do something he does, and if he doesn't want to, then he refuses. And by extension, "Philip Lee doesn't like to answer such charges" - I mean, who would? Certainly Philip didn't want to face the music. But that's apparently sufficient in the LC -- the oracle's son doesn't want to answer such charges. End of conversation. Kind of like Dad was with Sal Benoît.

"So subjective is my Christ in me..." Yes indeed, so subjective.... Christ is whatever you want Christ to be - how very convenient. And ten years later, someone else found the oracle's son in the same office doing the same "immoral act". Surprised?

Philip Lee's favorite saying: We don't care for right and wrong. We only care for life!

I'm sure WL had been dealing with his boys' SNAFU's their whole life. He was used to doing nothing about it. Standard procedure here. Just wait church, things will all get better, storm clouds will pass over, and everything will get back to normal.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Peter, do you know the title of this book? If I could search by year published (I assume around 1997 or 1998) I would go looking myself.

And then add to this the ever-pervasive "We're not in the realm of right and wrong" and you get very troubling results.

In 1988, amidst a crisis in leadership, LSM released Nee's Authority and Submission.

In 1989, Andrew Yu delivered to us this "classic," titled "An Affirmation of the Proper Authority in the Body of Christ."

Neither book provides any instruction on the responsibility and accountability of leaders to their churches.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

And yet look how much hiding goes on in the LC.

1. They hide their affiliation with LSM. "Oh, we are just lovers of Jesus".

2. They hide history. Many have passed decades in the LC, never having heard of the Daystar Motorhome Corporation or the huge negative effect it had on church morale.

3. Bias is sown liberally in all accounts. If anyone tries to critique the LSM that is an "attack" but if LSM points out flaws of others that's fine.

Do you mean that the Daystar Motor Home Story Book never made it into LSM's peer-reviewed scholarly journal, Affirmation and Critique?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Do you mean that the Daystar Motor Home Story Book never made it into their peer-reviewed scholarly journal, Affirmation and Critique?

King David's flaws made it into the official record book. So did Peter's, in the NT.

People make mistakes.

Why make a career pointing out problems with "poor" and "deformed" Christianity, when one's own are covered in silence?

Then using a biased, self-selective historical record, they'll push people to commit to the group, which (they say) is God's heart's desire. This decision is supposedly akin to consecrating oneself to God, becoming a disciple, an overcomer, joining the "army of God" and the "bride of Christ". Yet such a life-altering commitment gets made without information, which has been deliberately withheld. Does that seem ethical to you?

The now-committed members, who are "sold out" and "wrecked" for the cause, eventually sense that something is suboptimal (being dunned for yet more $$, being told that growth is flat, that churches are lukewarm etc), but because of the constant programming to "be one" they don't speak up for fear of being "negative". Critical examination and correction are forbidden. The un-remarked errors continue, occasionally snow-balling like with the Philip Lee situation(s).

We all have bias, self-interest, and "individualistic thought", to quote a recent LSM conference banner... but creating an organization that institutionalizes this selfishness, deliberately hiding historical information, covering it with double-speak, along with brow-beating young college students who are often teenagers, and who even are school-aged children into committment, whence their ability to choose rationally will be further compromised - sorry, "restricted" is the official word - is not ethical.

Jesus alone was holy, righteous, and pure. This kind of organization doesn't represent him, no matter how many times they point out others' failures, or hide behind words like "body" and "proper" and "reality". They'd be better to use words like "hive mind" which would more accurately describe what's happening here.

These are their unethical recruiting methods: start with Jesus, then once they're caught switch focus to the "body" which in turn becomes a publishing and book-selling venture, the "ministry", which itself fronts a fallible human being, the "Deputy God", and his lackeys. But don't reveal the m.o. or recruiting will fall off, along with book and poster sales. Because who'd knowingly enter such a process?

So Daystar Motorhome Corporation isn't part of the official narrative, sorry. It's all about loving Jesus!

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by aron

From The Spokesman-Review Dec 17 1978

Witness Lee refused to act on Max Rapoport's demand. Why? Because he didn't want to, that's why. He's Witness Lee, the voice of God. That's the sum total of reality in the LC: if the oracle wants to do something he does, and if he doesn't want to, then he refuses. And by extension, "Philip Lee doesn't like to answer such charges" - I mean, who would? Certainly Philip didn't want to face the music. But that's apparently sufficient in the LC -- the oracle's son doesn't want to answer such charges. End of conversation. Kind of like Dad was with Sal Benoît.

"So subjective is my Christ in me..." Yes indeed, so subjective.... Christ is whatever you want Christ to be - how very convenient. And ten years later, someone else found the oracle's son in the same office doing the same "immoral act". Surprised?

A side point at that time in Anaheim (I was there 1976-1979), it's not only the parents who remained open to Max that suffered, but THEIR CHILDREN TOO. Friendships were squashed among churchkids by the parents. Very sad.

Anyways, I emphasized a portion of Aron's post. This is the M.O. of elders, co-workers etc when confronted with questions, criticisms, etc. Whether it be Harvest House, Steve Isitt, or direct personal interactions. No response. This is what I have termed as bunker mentality. Brothers have no problems levying their opinions (founded or unfounded). Yet when others do the same which invariably questions the ministry, it's by default labeled as an attack when that's hardly the intention of the individual or individuals.

[aron]

On the FB page:

From a saint, “My first husband who I met in the church had schizophrenia but we never dated before getting married so I didn’t realize how mentally ill he was. It got so severe he went to the elders and was told “no psychiatrists, no meds. You just need to pray-read more.” He got worse and worse, became totally disabled, couldn’t work and lay for hours in a fetal position. After 20 years of marriage I told him I was done. Sadly he was shunned for years by lots of “saints” because he didn’t measure up.”

This right here is why I am speaking up about receiving mental health help. I have received message after message from saints both still in and those who have left who were afraid to go to a psychologist or psychiatrist due to things told to them in the church life. If LSM no longer endorses this view from Brother Lee they need to issue a public retraction of his statements that are used against the saints.

Here’s a direct quote from Brother Lee regarding not receiving mental health help. I also find this statement to be sexist:

“Most young women are sick either emotionally or mentally. No psychiatrist can help them. However, if you live the church life, the very Christ whom you offer to God will heal you. He is better than any psychiatrist. Do not go to a psychiatrist—come to Christ and offer Him to God. Then you will be healthy, sober, and emotionally balanced.” (Witness Lee, Life Study of Genesis, Volume 2, Message 32, Anaheim, CA, 1975, page 431).

One aspect of high control groups is programming their members to fear receiving mental health help:

http://bit.ly/ProgrammedtoFearMentalHealthHelp

Any other experiences both positive or negative regarding receiving mental health help in the church life? I realize many of you cannot comment due to needing to protect yourself and your families. I received permission to anonymously post this story about a saint with schizophrenia.

__________________________________________________ ______________

I came into the LC thinking all my problems were over -- I was in the church life, on the local ground, calling "Oooh Looord Jeeezuss!!" with all the saints. What could be finer?

Eventually my problems came back. I went to three elders, one by one. And one by one they blew me off. One by one they looked glum when I privately confessed my woes, and in a few sentences they each made it clear that they were not in the business of providing mental health counseling. That's probably one reason that they told us they wanted "good building material" - stable college students from stable homes. Good potential earners with no serious problems. Because the LC is not very interested in your problems. It exposes their inability to actually transform human lives.

To repeat my previous question: if you are "becoming God" shouldn't there be some tangible issue, today, more than with the Baptists and Presbyterians? Where are the Gerasene madmen, now clothed and whole to the astonishment of natives? Where is the sign of your "kingdom power"? I don't really see it in the LC. I see temporary soulish excitement of getting together and shouting repetitively. But people by and large are not getting fundamentally transformed. So "becoming God in life and nature" is an abstraction of the mind, to hold captive imaginations in thrall, while lives slowly fade away.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Any other experiences both positive or negative regarding receiving mental health help in the church life? I realize many of you cannot comment due to needing to protect yourself and your families. I received permission to anonymously post this story about a saint with schizophrenia.

I think there is quite a diversity among the saints when it came to mental health issues. Perhaps it was regional, or just local.

The Psych hospital in town has the belief that all mental health problems are biological in nature. The first time I heard that, it sounded good, but what that really meant was they just needed to prescribe the right med for each illness. Once you started down this path, it was lifetime of meds, changing meds, and coping with the side effects. Insurance companies preferred this over actual counseling costs. Most of the saints I knew were very much pro-meds. Prosac, Paxil, Zoloft, etc. were the "saviors" of mankind. In extreme cases meds can help, but they should never be considered a panacea of sorts. At times they have been helpful to family members, and at times they seem to cause more problems.

Personally, I was a messed up kid who probably should have had both counseling and numerous meds. Perhaps that might have delivered me from my days of self-medication, perhaps not. One night before sleeping I had a life-changing visit by the Savior. Changed my mind, my heart, my attitude, my personality. Everything was changed for the better. I was a new creation. Today I still have issues at times like everyone else, and I've been beaten up over the years, but I keep coming back to the Physician and Healer of my soul. Praise Him!

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Personally, I was a messed up kid who probably should have had both counseling and numerous meds. Perhaps that might have delivered me from my days of self-medication, perhaps not. One night before sleeping I had a life-changing visit by the Savior. Changed my mind, my heart, my attitude, my personality. Everything was changed for the better. I was a new creation. Today I still have issues at times like everyone else, and I've been beaten up over the years, but I keep coming back to the Physician and Healer of my soul. Praise Him!

I was as messed up as any, and perhaps worse than some. I can't say that I wasted my time there, but eventually left in frustration (various reasons inc. lack of transformation). But years after leaving the LC, the Lord showed me something - as I do unto others, God will do to me. If I encourage and console, God will encourage and console me. If I facilitate God's healing, even tangentially, then it will facilitate mine own. It's all about how I treat the other guy (or gal). It's not about "me" but rather about "the other guy". Wow. I never got that in HS, not in the LC, not in college. That came straight from heaven.

In the LC it was all about "making it" - being an over comer and ruling and reigning with Christ in the coming Kingdom Age. But eventually I realised that the "reward" was in doing good to the other person right now, while it is still today. "Now is the hour of salvation." That was how to follow Christ - today. My problems to some extent remain, but when I help others today they get smaller.

And yes, I can seek help, too. And I have. But I'm no longer the black hole of need - everything in, nothing out. When I learned to give and to care I truly began to feel that God was healing me. "When you lose your soul you will find it."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

I was as sick as any, and sicker than some. But years after the LC, the Lord showed me something - as I do unto others, God will do to me. If I encourage and console, God will encourage and console me. It's all about how I treat the other guy (or gal).

Definitely agree.

LC leaders often have pathetic attitudes towards one another. It's kind of like watching the interactions between soldiers in a war flick back in the barracks -- constant put downs. Does all interaction have to be a burn session? Does all humor have to tear down instead of build up? Can't we bear one another's burdens?

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by aron

On the FB page:

From a saint, “My first husband who I met in the church had schizophrenia but we never dated before getting married so I didn’t realize how mentally ill he was. It got so severe he went to the elders and was told “no psychiatrists, no meds. You just need to pray-read more.” He got worse and worse, became totally disabled, couldn’t work and lay for hours in a fetal position. After 20 years of marriage I told him I was done. Sadly he was shunned for years by lots of “saints” because he didn’t measure up.”

This right here is why I am speaking up about receiving mental health help. I have received message after message from saints both still in and those who have left who were afraid to go to a psychologist or psychiatrist due to things told to them in the church life. If LSM no longer endorses this view from Brother Lee they need to issue a public retraction of his statements that are used against the saints.

Here’s a direct quote from Brother Lee regarding not receiving mental health help. I also find this statement to be sexist:

“Most young women are sick either emotionally or mentally. No psychiatrist can help them. However, if you live the church life, the very Christ whom you offer to God will heal you. He is better than any psychiatrist. Do not go to a psychiatrist—come to Christ and offer Him to God. Then you will be healthy, sober, and emotionally balanced.” (Witness Lee, Life Study of Genesis, Volume 2, Message 32, Anaheim, CA, 1975, page 431).

One aspect of high control groups is programming their members to fear receiving mental health help:

http://bit.ly/ProgrammedtoFearMentalHealthHelp

Any other experiences both positive or negative regarding receiving mental health help in the church life? I realize many of you cannot comment due to needing to protect yourself and your families. I received permission to anonymously post this story about a saint with schizophrenia.

__________________________________________________ ______________

I came into the LC all happy, because all my problems were over. I was in the church life, on the local ground, calling "Oh Lord Jeeezuss!!" with all the saints. What could be finer?

Eventually my problems came back. I went to the elders, one by one. And one by one they blew me off. Years later, post-LC, I went and got professional help.

That's probably one reason that they told us they wanted "good building material" - stable Caucasian college students from stable homes. Good earners, with no problems. Because the LC is not very interested in your problems. It exposes their inability to actually transform human lives.

We've all read the accounts in scripture of Christ casting legions of demons out of people making them of sound mind again. It's indisputable. If he can do that with demon possessed people, what type of challenge does any kind of mental illness present for the finger of God?

It's heartbreaking that these individuals weren't given the proper attention and care that they needed in the LC's but the issue wasn't in saying that only Christ can truly heal mental illness, the root of the issue within the LC's is the dispensing of the wrong Jesus and the wrong spirits and only masking certain issues with mind emptying techniques. And these techniques, rather than confronting personal issues head-on, help one run away from their issues for a short time.

So instead of leadership taking blame for these shortcomings, the blame is passed onto the unwell individual for having a lack of faith. And pride prevents them from further recommending help outside of the church group. As a temporary fix to avoid outside help, the Nee and Lee implemented psychological methods done through certain mystical practices such as pray-reading and other mantra type exercises that pierce the psychic realm but can only, at best, temporarily subdue mental unease. And then these experiences are past off as being of God's Holy Spirit.

In a sense this is really no different then psychiatric help. These types of things have nothing to do with the spirit of Jesus Christ whom doesn't merely patch up our broken minds or help us avoid our minds altogether but he gives us a new mind, the mind of Christ (Ephesians 4:23) .

LC doctrine also substitutes a personal and individual relationship with Jesus Christ with a corporate "Christ" which is termed as "church-life". This in reality is just a synonym for a type of pseudo communal mentality acheived through a collective submission to church authority where one has to lay down their individuality for the greater good of the group and sold as the only way to have a relationship with Christ. I suppose the thought here is that if you "get out of your mind" by blindly submitting to "the vision" you will no longer have to deal with the problems of the mind. But what this does in reality is cause dissociation in the individual.

With that said, I understand the importance and place of psychiatry in today's society. I would never tell someone to avoid this type of help. I'd be a hypocrite if I did so. I know it's a crutch that can help people in desperate situations maintain or regain stability but to go to the extreme of viewing psychiatry and God as different but equal help isn't the correct stance to take either.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by aron

And yes, I can ask for help, too. But I'm no longer the black hole of need - everything in, nothing out. When I learned to give and to care I truly began to feel that God was healing me. "When you lose your soul you will find it."

It was my hope that the "soul-life" thread would have helped make clear the point that there isn't anything inherently bad about the human soul. Our souls are who we uniquely are and it's the part of us made in the image of God. It's not something you ever want to lose. Sin is the problem, not the soul.

The correct interpretation for "psuche" in the context of Matthew 10:39 is "life" referring to a way of life. Paul had the correct understanding of what Christ meant in 2 Cor 5:17. When a person has faith in Christ and the Holy Spirit comes upon them, it's sin that is directly dealt with and not the soul. The old life that was in bondage to sin is now gone, and the new creation has come.

I'm sorry for the rant, Aron, but I reel whenever I see the human soul viewed in a negative light. It may have not been what you meant but the way you reworded that scripture can easily be perceived the wrong way by some.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Jo S

I'm sorry for the rant, Aron, but I reel whenever I see the human soul viewed in a negative light. It may have not been what you meant but the way you reworded that scripture can easily be perceived the wrong way by some.

I was using the context of the disciples arguing about which was greatest. That, to me, is the Kingdom of Self. The fallen human disposition to make everything about Me, Me and Me.

I was like that, for a long time, both through the LC and beyond, and maybe from this project my own foibles on others, which distorts my ability to see what scripture actually says.

When you lose the "me first" attitude, which the soul seems to gravitate to, then you can find peace, joy, fellowship, love. The LC was, in retrospect, one person's unmet needs (WL) writ large across the assembly. If we fed his ego, we felt better for a time. We were recruited to be co-conspirators, co-dependents as it were. His "me-first" abetted my "me-first" for a time. Then the wine ran out...

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by aron

I was using the context of the disciples arguing about which was greatest. That, to me, is the Kingdom of Self. The fallen human disposition to make everything about Me, Me and Me.

I was like that, for a long time, both through the LC and beyond, and maybe from this project my own foibles on others, which distorts my ability to see what scripture actually says.

That's what I assumed but at the same time needing God, needing salvation, needing His healing, needing Godly Christian fellowship for one's self, are things we should selfishly pursue. It's only the trivial things like what we wear or what we eat that shouldn't concerned us so much.

You remind me of an old friend of mine. He wasn't a Christian but was one of the most kind and giving people you could ever meet. I admired, and often times envied, this part of his character growing up. It wasn't until I came to know Christ and his love that I came to realize my friend's "love" for other's was in reality selfishness cloaked in selflessness. What I mean is that for him, offering and often times forcing his help on others was a type of self-therapy. The praises he received from others provided him with the validation he needed to maintain his wellbeing but there was a darker side to all of it. The truth was that his giving was first and foremost always about himself. He found that the best solution for his low self-esteem issues was doing things for other people. It was a reciprocal type of love.

This may all sound harsh but it's the truth. I don't fault my friend for using his deeds in helping others as a crutch for himself but I no longer admire this type of selflessness. I still, however, admire and appreciate his willingness to help others. From this example, I now understand that it's only from the outflow of God's genuine love in us that can truly change other's lives and not from the outflow of the self-love and self-righteousness in us.

1 Corinthians 13 :

If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing.

Originally Posted by aron

When you lose the "me first" attitude, which the soul seems to gravitate to, then you can find peace, joy, fellowship, love. The LC was, in retrospect, one person's unmet needs (WL) writ large across the assembly. If we fed his ego, we felt better for a time. We were recruited to be co-conspirators, co-dependents as it were. His "me-first" abetted my "me-first" for a time. Then the wine ran out...

It's our bondage to sin that gravitates us toward the "me first" attitude. Sin is darkness and darkness is a bottomless void with a voracious and insatiable appetite. Ourselves or our souls are subject to this quality of sin before we come to salvation. We can't help it and by no effort of our own can we change that. If we try by our own strength it'll only leads to the type of altruism that I mentioned above.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Jo S

That's what I assumed but at the same time needing God, needing salvation, needing His healing, needing Godly Christian fellowship for one's self, are things we should selfishly pursue. It's only the trivial things like what we wear or what we eat that shouldn't concerned us so much.

Love is the answer. When we begin to see people as God sees them, when we see how much he cares for them we begin to want the best for them and become less selfish. We genuinely care, and being more sacrificial is the natural result.

[Cal]

I've been watching the HBO miniseries Chernobyl, which dramatically shows what really happened when and after the Soviet Union nuclear power plant exploded.

The top priority of the Soviets was to suppress and control information. Everything was about lying and threatening and punishing those who didn't go along with the white-washing. In time the disaster became so great that some could no longer pretend, but the Soviet machine still tried to spin things to their best benefit, even as the top leaders had to face the reality of the situation. But the striking thing was how the pecking order, information control and pretending was such an accepted part of daily life there.

Besides the party "true believers" most people realized the system was bad, but had no power to resist. Everyone just went along with it. Shortly after the plant explosion, an elderly party apparatchik gives a stirring but completely naive pep talk to an arguing group of leaders. He tells them that everything will be alright if they have faith in "the state." The inspired group stands and applauds him, ignorant of the radiation bombarding their bodies at that very moment.

I was struck at how it matched the LR culture. The fatal error is that the group, whether the "state" or the "recovery," is more important that anyone or anything, even the truth. It's all about threats and fear and intimidation and keeping people in their place. It's all about people being means to an end. It's all about a system based on lies. The KGB reminded me of the DCP. They too considered their job "a faithful word," when all they were was the intimidating muscle behind the lies.

The LR is Christianity's Soviet Union. So many grand ideas, all more important than the people they are supposed to bless--a relentless machine marching to its final meltdown, which will unfortunately take many with it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I was struck at how it matched the LR culture. The fatal error is that the group, whether the "state" or the "recovery," is more important that anyone or anything, even the truth. It's all about threats and fear and intimidation and keeping people in their place. It's all about people being means to an end. It's all about a system based on lies. The KGB reminded me of the DCP. They too considered their job "a faithful word," when all they were was the intimidating muscle behind the lies.

The LR is Christianity's Soviet Union. So many grand ideas, all more important than the people they are supposed to bless--a relentless machine marching to its final meltdown, which will unfortunately take many with it.

Fascinating analogies.

The Recovery has these "10-Year-Storms" to re-exert their fake authority and re-remind the rank-and-file that "all authority has been given to the MOTA."

Why 10 years? Apparently that's how long it takes to forget this nonsense.

Socialistic communism in the Soviet Union had a lot of good points. There was no income inequality. They all lived in borderline poverty, but they had all things common. Jobs, homes, and health care were human rights they all shared. Crime was exceedingly low. They had no corrupt Christian ministries. Public transportation was available for all. There was no political infighting occupying the daily news, and every candidate received unanimous support from the people.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Igzy

I was struck at how it matched the LR culture. The fatal error is that the group, whether the "state" or the "recovery," is more important that anyone or anything, even the truth. It's all about threats and fear and intimidation and keeping people in their place. It's all about people being means to an end. It's all about a system based on lies. The KGB reminded me of the DCP. They too considered their job "a faithful word," when all they were was the intimidating muscle behind the lies.

The LR is Christianity's Soviet Union. So many grand ideas, all more important than the people they are supposed to bless--a relentless machine marching to its final meltdown, which will unfortunately take many with it.

I too couldn't help but to think of the Local Churches and seeing the similarities between these two systems while watching the Chernobyl miniseries...

Some will be upset with me but I'll go ahead and say it anyway. I haven't yet heard an LC member refer to another Christian outside of the Lord's Recovery movement as a "saint". The one thing that particularly stood out to me while watching Chernobyl was how similar the use of the term "saint" within the LC's is to how the Soviet's referred only to those within their Union as "comrade". Of course all those born of God are His saints but it seems the LC's took that label, exclusivised, and redefined it to only apply to those within the confines of their movement as a type of unifier to a common cause. (I apologize for the broad brush stroke, I don't assume this applies to everyone).

Anyway, I do understand the use of Soviet style of control within religious movements but what I really think holds the LC's together is community by those, like Jo, whom have a sincere and caring heart for those around them.

I believe the control tactics are used indirectly to maintain the naivety of the people so they continue to give their all unaware. This, in turn, is what keeps community together and the "machine" running.

Like Ohio said, the Soviets had some seemingly great ideas but history shows that collapse is inevitable whenever man tries to create a utopia on earth by their own efforts (think Babel, Nazi Germany). Or in terms of Christianity, whenever there is doctrine that teaches dominionism (the ushering in of Christ's kingdom by man's efforts) it too will eventually come to a dead end. In the Local Churches, this is the doctrine of Locality. And continuing with the Chernobyl analogy, this doctrine is their "fatal flaw".

It's only at the Lord Jesus Christ's return will a "movement" or kingdom without end be established on earth.

[Cal]

This is from the Wikipedia article on the miniseries Chernobyl. The portion highlighted struck me as exactly how the LR leadership and DCP would have responded to any similar project which criticized the LR:

The miniseries was well-received in Russia. Vladimir Medinsky, Russian culture minister, called the series “Masterfully made” and “filmed with great respect for ordinary people”.... Anna Narinskaya, in Novaya Gazeta, noticed how the series, despite the harsh criticism of the Soviet government, became sympathetic to the common people, demonstrating their feat, solidarity, which even splashed around those who were called apparatchiks. The Communist Party of Russia called for a libel lawsuit against Chernobyl’s writer, director and producers, describing the show as "disgusting". In a statement, party member Sergey Malinkovich spoke of the party’s intentions to lobby TV regulator Roskomnadzor to request that it blocks local access to the series.

Push the lie, suppress information, threaten lawsuits, block the truth. That's the mantra of oppressive regimes, and the LR is one of them.

The moral of Chernobyl is that the nuclear power plant disaster was the direct result of the Soviet Union's policy of suppressing any information which made them look bad, including the RBMK reactor design flaw which led to the explosion. I guess it is fitting that their own lies did them in, except that innocent people went down with them. The same is and will be true for the LR.

[Nell]

So here’s my question. With all the FB and LCDiscussions publicity, et al, with the Casteel Open Letter, what is the impact? Is what’s happening “new”? Is this the beginning of a mass exodus that has been on the verge for a long time, or at least an accelerated downward spiral of LC/LSM membership? Did the LC on FB amount to its opening the door to open commentary on the Internet that they had/have been trying to keep shut for years? Is it too soon to call? Wait and see?

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

So here’s my question. With all the FB and LCDiscussions publicity, et al, with the Casteel Open Letter, what is the impact? Is what’s happening “new”? Is this the beginning of a mass exodus that has been on the verge for a long time, or at least an accelerated downward spiral of LC/LSM membership? Did the LC on FB amount to its opening the door to open commentary on the Internet that they had/have been trying to keep shut for years? Is it too soon to call? Wait and see?

Nell

Based on the history of the Exclusive Brethren, Recovery watchmen will merely double down on their expulsions and apocalyptic reminders of God's pending "judgments" upon all opinionated ones. Did you see that brother in Tennessee on the Casteel fb who was quarantined just 6 months ago? He had his 20 year pin. Quarantines no longer require directives from headquarters, but local elders will begin cutting off all undesirable members in order to "protect the body from further damage." Perhaps the pending Summer Training will have an afternoon workshop with Minoru Chen: "The god-ordained organic way to protect the body of Christ from satanic attacks on the internet." Dangerous members, who's only failure will be to ask for accountability or reform, will be like a cancer tumor surgically removed.

Is that what also happened to brother Dan Towle? Now if a well-respected Blended like Towle emerges with a revelatory public statement, that might precipitate the next "storm." The LSM/DCP wordsmiths will have to update their afaithfulword site to include him. Has anyone noticed that their writers never sign their names to anything? To give the impresssion that WL still speaks from the grave?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Based on the history of the Exclusive Brethren, Recovery watchmen will merely double down on their expulsions and apocalyptic reminders of God's pending "judgments" upon all opinionated ones. Did you see that brother in Tennessee on the Casteel fb who was quarantined just 6 months ago? He had his 20 year pin. Quarantines no longer require directives from headquarters, but local elders will begin cutting off all undesirable members in order to "protect the body from further damage." Perhaps the pending Summer Training will have an afternoon workshop with Minoru Chen: "The god-ordained organic way to protect the body of Christ from satanic attacks on the internet." Dangerous members, who's only failure will be to ask for accountability or reform, will be like a cancer tumor surgically removed. Is that what also happened to brother Dan Towle?

I would say "business as usual" too, except for the "Facebook Factor". They have lost some of their control that might skew history a bit. TMI so to speak.

Nell

[aron]

Originally Posted by Nell

I would say "business as usual" too, except for the "Facebook Factor". They have lost some of their control that might skew history a bit. TMI so to speak.

Nell

Less than two weeks since posting the Open Letter, with 880+ comments and 31 shares, many of which have their own comments. Probably DCP has noticed.

https://freedomofmind.com/bite-model/

The Bite Model stands for:

Behaviour control
Information control
Thought control
Emotional control

Seems like the "Information control" part has been slipping recently.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Nell

I would say "business as usual" too, except for the "Facebook Factor". They have lost some of their control that might skew history a bit. TMI so to speak.

They will try to maintain status quo until the bitter end. When the camel's back breaks things will happen very quickly. But you never when the last straw will fall.

The last straw will probably be financial distress. If members in droves stop buying ministry products and LSM's income stream dries up, that would probably do it.

Like in the Soviet Union, it is really all about everyone protecting their rear ends, and rear ends are material.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Igzy

They will try to maintain status quo until the bitter end. When the camel's back breaks things will happen very quickly. But you never when the last straw will fall.

The last straw will probably be financial distress. If members in droves stop buying ministry products and LSM's income stream dries up, that would probably do it.

Like in the Soviet Union, it is really all about everyone protecting their rear ends, and rear ends are material.

People stopped buying the books a long time ago. The revenue stream is from standing orders. Are the churches going to have the courage to cancel those? If they do they'll get cut off.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

People stopped buying the books a long time ago. The revenue stream is from standing orders. Are the churches going to have the courage to cancel those? If they do they'll get cut off.

I would think the real revenue stream is in the trainings, not the books.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I would think the real revenue stream is in the trainings, not the books.

I was under the impression that the "training" was simply a way of mobilizing a sales force and trying to grow market share.

[Jo S]

I just wanted to encourage you guys and say that the Lord does hear all the cries from the injustices that have taken place in the Local Churches.

I know there are those that were greatly hurt by this group and would like to see nothing more than the earth be rid of them however situations where entire families and individual's faiths are involved can be so delicate and complex that it's just not possible for any one of us to know how to properly navigate through it all. What we want to see happen may not be what the Lord wills at this moment and by pushing forward in our own strength, we can do more harm then good.

It's so easy to get caught up in the trap of continuously focusing on and exposing the darkness that we too risk falling into sin and become entrapped in a perpetual cycle of vengefullness and hatred toward those who have caused us harm. Unfortunately abusive and oppressive religious groups won't be going away anytime soon, save the Lord returns.

God is on the throne and vengence is His. No amount of damage inflicted on the LC's will bring healing but we can take heart in knowing that nothing will escape Him on that last day.

Evil will only increase. In the meantime let us pray for the captives, forgive our enemies with the forgiveness we were given, and reflect the light and love of Christ everywhere we gather in His name, including on these forums. Amen

[Weighingin]

Originally Posted by Jo S

I just wanted to encourage you guys and say that the Lord does hear all the cries from the injustices that have taken place in the Local Churches.

I know there are those that were greatly hurt by this group and would like to see nothing more than the earth be rid of them however situations where entire families and individual's faiths are involved can be so delicate and complex that it's just not possible for any one of us to know how to properly navigate through it all. What we want to see happen may not be what the Lord will's at this moment and by pushing forward by our own strength, we can do more harm then good.

It's so easy to get caught up in the trap of continuously focusing on and exposing the darkness that we too risk falling into sin and become entrapped in a perpetual cycle of vengefullness and hatred toward those who have caused us harm. Unfortunately abusive and oppressive religious groups won't be going away anytime soon, save the Lord returns.

God is on the throne and vengence is His. No amount of damage inflicted on the LC's will bring healing but we can take courage in knowing that nothing will escape Him on that last day.

Evil will only increase. In the meantime let us pray for the captives, forgive our enemies with the forgiveness we were given, and reflect the light and love of Christ everywhere we gather in His name, including on these forums. Amen

"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
Friedrich Nietzche
Something to consider, though it's most applicable to folks like police officers who have to track down serial killers, part of which involves getting into their mindset. (As an example)

[Weighingin]

Regarding revenue stream, it it appropriate to continue commenting on this thread or will UntoHim say it "Persona non threads." 😀

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Jo S

It's so easy to get caught up in the trap of continuously focusing on and exposing the darkness that we too risk falling into sin and become entrapped in a perpetual cycle of vengefullness and hatred toward those who have caused us harm. Unfortunately abusive and oppressive religious groups won't be going away anytime soon, save the Lord returns.

Jo, Standing up to bullies is not the same thing as being vengeful. The Bible tells us again and again to seek justice for the oppressed.

I've honestly been appalled over the years that more former leaders and people in the know have not had the courage to speak out about this group. If not them then who?

The answer is not to be timid, but to do all things prayerfully.

The only thing required for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing.

And "evil will only increase?" That's LR bunker mentality.

Absolutely we should pray for the victims. But how do you think the Lord answers prayer? One way is through the intervention of those with the courage to intervene.

I understand not wanting fleshly fighting. But Paul wasn't always pleasant in his defense of God's church. The Lord is jealous for his people.

[Cal]

Another thing that struck me about the Soviet Union/Recovery parallels was how the leaders of each uphold ideals and institutions over people. People were a means to the end of accomplishing and defending their grand and abstract ideals.

In the Soviet Union it was "the state," "the party," "victory over imperialism," "the working class," even "the good of all mankind."

In the LR it is "the Recovery," "God's purpose," "God's move," "oneness," "the Ministry."

In each's set of ideals, plain old people, especially any individual, are never held up as nearly important as these abstractions.

GOD IS NOT THAT WAY AT ALL

To God, people are all that matter. He doesn't care for institutions or ideals, only people. He cares for his Church because his Church IS his people, and nothing more. Christ died for people, not ideals or impersonal goals.

What struck me in Chernobyl was how the leaders were all about maintaining the State, and people were means to that end. People were sacrificed liberally for the State. But those people didn't really care about the State as an ideal, they just wanted to live their lives. But, ironically, if anyone saved the day in that situation, it was ordinary people who stepped up and sacrificed.

Institutions and governments come and go, but the people endure. No matter how carved up or administered EuroAsia is, the people there will go on with their lives. It is their values and their relationships that make the whole thing work. They are the backbone and reason for it all.

No matter how the Church is organized, it is the people, the believers, that matter. They are what God sees. They are the ones who endure through all the changes in organization. They are the ones it is supposed to all be for. And they are the ones who clean up the messes.

For all the communist faithful's efforts to maintain the glorious State, the Soviet Union dissolved five years after Chernobyl. All that was left was the people.

No matter what glorious Christian institutions come and go, the people remain. That is the Church.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Weighingin

"He who fights monsters should see to it that he himself does not become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you."
Friedrich Nietzche
Something to consider, though it's most applicable to folks like police officers who have to track down serial killers, part of which involves getting into their mindset. (As an example)

But in the OP Joanna called the "monster" "the Lord's recovery." Her opening line is:

"Greg and I have some very important things to share with you regarding our journey with the Lord’s recovery." -emphasis mine.

Is it now? Is it really the LORD'S recovery? If it is THE LORD'S, how could anyone leave it, and wouldn't everyone want to be in it?

It is what's being sold. The term presumes it. And everyone calls it that without giving it any hint of critical thought.

The truth is, that, if Greg and Joanna believe that the local church is the Lord's recovery then, their open letter is just a lot of crybaby whining, and they had better go back in, or the cognitive dissonance will be too much for them to handle otherwise.

But if the local church is Nietzsche's monster, or more appropriately, the abyss, then kudos to Greg and Joanna for not becoming a monster in their open letter.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Jo, Standing up to bullies is not the same thing as being vengeful. The Bible tells us again and again to seek justice for the oppressed.

I've honestly been appalled over the years that more former leaders and people in the know have not had the courage to speak out about this group. If not them then who?

The answer is not to be timid, but to do all things prayerfully.

The only thing required for the triumph of evil is for good people to do nothing.

And "evil will only increase?" That's LR bunker mentality.

Absolutely we should pray for the victims. But how do you think the Lord answers prayer? One way is through the intervention of those with the courage to intervene.

I understand not wanting fleshly fighting. But Paul wasn't always pleasant in his defense of God's church. The Lord is jealous for his people.

Peter took a bold and forceful stance against injustice. To Peter his actions in protecting Jesus from harm appeared to be righteous and just but because he was more concerned about the things of men rather than the things of God, Jesus rebuked him.

Witness Lee, from the comfort of a podium, took a bold stance against the "enemies" of Christendom, the Catholic church and the denominations. I suppose that too appeared to be impressive and right in the sight of many at the time. But look where it took the LC's in the end...

Christ said in Matthew that lawlessness will abound. He also commands us to "let the evildoer continue to do evil, and the filthy continue to be filthy" in Rev 22:11. Is this too bunker mentality or is this scripture that needs to be rightly divided?

As to Paul, he didn't so much stand up to the bullies as he did standing up for the gospel. He even explained to us how to do this in Romans 12:19-21.

Examine your heart and be honest with yourself, because the line is extremely fine. I've seen what going down the "truther" or "social justice warrior" path does to a person. For those whom seek to follow Christ, it stunts our relationship with Him like the seeds in Matthew 13 that fell among the thorns.

When you say things like "stand up to the bullies" You make it known where your heart is at. It implies your focus is on people who are all made in the image of God (whether that be Lee, the Blendeds, Titus Chu, or whomever), rather than on the principalities in high places. And Witness Lee wasn't any different except that his focus was on groups of people.

Greg and Jo's letter is effectively their "coming out of the abyss" so to speak. It was the right thing for them to do. However, can adding more posts to their exposé make it even more right?

I agree, if God moves you to speak your peace then do so but find the strength in Christ to move passed this stage so He can work to heal you. Then bring with you an awesome testimony to God for all to see. That is the light that will truly drawn people out of the darkness. Otherwise you may find yourself crawling right back into the abyss just in another guise. And it's my prayer that forums like these don't become that other guise but rather they effectively work in encouraging those coming out of the Lord's Recovery movement in the light and love of Christ.

[Cal]

We agree to disagree.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Peter took a bold and forceful stance against injustice. To Peter his actions in protecting Jesus from harm appeared to be righteous and just but because he was more concerned about the things of men rather than the things of God, Jesus rebuked him.

Witness Lee, from the comfort of a podium, took a bold stance against the "enemies" of Christendom, the Catholic church and the denominations. I suppose that too appeared to be impressive and right in the sight of many at the time. But look where it took the LC's in the end...

Christ said in Matthew that lawlessness will abound. He also commands us to "let the evildoer continue to do evil, and the filthy continue to be filthy" in Rev 22:11. Is this too bunker mentality or is this scripture that needs to be rightly divided?

As to Paul, he didn't so much stand up to the bullies than he did stand up for the gospel. He even explained to us how to do this in Romans 12:19-21.

Examine your heart and be honest with yourself, because the line is extremely fine. I've seen what going down the "truther" or "social justice warrior" path does to a person. For those whom seek to follow Christ, it stunts our relationship with Him like the seeds in Matthew 13 that fell among the thorns.

When you say things like "stand up to the bullies" You make it known where your heart is at. It implies your focus is on people who are all made in the image of God (whether that be Lee, the Blendeds, Titus Chu, or whomever), rather than on the principalities in high places. And Witness Lee wasn't any different except that his focus was on groups of people.

Greg and Jo's letter is effectively their "coming out of the abyss" so to speak. It was the right thing for them to do. However, can adding more posts to their exposé make it even more right?

I agree, if God moves you to speak your peace then do so but find the strength in Christ to move passed this stage so He can work to heal you. Then bring with you an awesome testimony to God for all to see. That is the light that will truly drawn people out of the darkness. Otherwise you may find yourself crawling right back into the abyss just in another guise. And it's my prayer that forums like these don't become that other guise but rather they, not only teach to stand against the principalities in high places, but effectively work in encouraging those coming out of the Lord's Recovery movement in the light and love of Christ.

This is a recurring theme on this forum. Someone on some thread shared about two verses in Proverbs that I thought was instructive. There are two proverbs one after the other, the first says "do not rebuke a fool lest you be like him" which I think is your point. The next says "rebuke a fool lest he be wise in his own deceit" which I think is Igzy's point.

If I recall correctly the way it was shared is that our first response should be the first verse unless that becomes untenable, in which case we must go to the second.

So much of what WL said was quite insulting, and you could be offended at some of the posts on this forum as also being insulting. If possible we don't want to become like that. However, once it crosses the line where believers are being stumbled, abused, slandered, and sued. Well at some point you have to rebuke the fool. Hence the need for this forum.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Peter took a bold and forceful stance against injustice. To Peter his actions in protecting Jesus from harm appeared to be righteous and just but because he was more concerned about the things of men rather than the things of God, Jesus rebuked him.

So, in this case, is Peter me, or you?

To help you out, I think the case could be made both ways. And we could go around and around. But that's the last thing I'm interested in.

So let me say, yes, being involved in standing up to the LR can lead to bad feelings. But I've been involved in this effort for a long time, and my experience says that is not happening now. In fact, I'm amazed at (and frankly proud of) the civility I see.

So I'm not sure why out of the blue you thought to warn everyone the way you did. I just thought it needed some pushback. To me the time is to speak out, and I don't think that needs any dampening at the moment.

[Weighingin]

To Jo S and Awareness:
I apologize for my abyss/monster quotation, that was overkill. I was trying to respond to your post, but I didn't think it through. I don't write or express
things as well as a lot of you. Maybe I can express my response to your posts by an example.
We need to be aware of both the positive and negative stuff in our lives. When I was working, there were some positive things about my job, yet I was often focused on the negative. I would go home and complain a lot until even my kids were bummed out about my constant talk. So I became a reflection of the negativity that was at my job. Those that have left the recovery, LSM churches,
(what have you) saw, perceived, and experienced some negative things, errors, and other shortcomings in varying degrees.
As another case, when I realized he wasn't the MOTA, I was mad that it took so many years to see this.
Anyways, I'm done for now. Peace be unto you both and all who come to this forum.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Jo S

When you say things like "stand up to the bullies" You make it known where your heart is at. It implies your focus is on people who are all made in the image of God (whether that be Lee, the Blendeds, Titus Chu, or whomever), rather than on the principalities in high places.

By the way, this is not necessarily true, and not true in my case, I don't believe. I'm the one who several pages back encouraged everyone to pray, reminding us that our battle is not against flesh and blood. I know the difference.

The Lord and the apostles resisted evil, both the invisible and visible kind. They also ministered to victims. They did all three.

Three areas need to be addressed: Satanic forces need to be resisted by prayer, evildoers need to be exposed and rebuked, and the victims need to be helped and encouraged. Each of these areas are valid and each has a different approach. Let's not confuse them. But none are outside the purview of our commission as long as we are approaching things prayerfully and in the Spirit.

My sense is that something big is about to happen, and it is going to involve a lot of speaking out... for a change. Everyone has to do as they feel led. But I have witnessed enough silent appeasement posing as civility for one lifetime.

It's time for the worm to turn.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Weighingin

To Jo S and Awareness:
I apologize for my abyss/monster quotation, that was overkill. I was trying to respond to your post, but I didn't think it through. I don't write or express
things as well as a lot of you. Maybe I can express my response to your posts by an example.
We need to be aware of both the positive and negative stuff in our lives. When I was working, there were some positive things about my job, yet I was often focused on the negative. I would go home and complain a lot until even my kids were bummed out about my constant talk. So I became a reflection of the negativity that was at my job. Those that have left the recovery, LSM churches,
(what have you) saw, perceived, and experienced some negative things, errors, and other shortcomings in varying degrees.
As another case, when I realized he wasn't the MOTA, I was mad that it took so many years to see this.
Anyways, I'm done for now. Peace be unto you both and all who come to this forum.

Thanks Weighingin. No big deal to me. I'm a fan of Nietzsche. Because of "God is dead," some out here will think he doesn't fit here. But that's only because they don't understand what Nietzsche meant.

But are we out here staring into the abyss? It's certainly staring back at us.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Peter took a bold and forceful stance against injustice. To Peter his actions in protecting Jesus from harm appeared to be righteous and just but because he was more concerned about the things of men rather than the things of God, Jesus rebuked him.

Witness Lee, from the comfort of a podium, took a bold stance against the "enemies" of Christendom, the Catholic church and the denominations. I suppose that too appeared to be impressive and right in the sight of many at the time. But look where it took the LC's in the end...

Christ said in Matthew that lawlessness will abound. He also commands us to "let the evildoer continue to do evil, and the filthy continue to be filthy" in Rev 22:11. Is this too bunker mentality or is this scripture that needs to be rightly divided?

As to Paul, he didn't so much stand up to the bullies as he did standing up for the gospel. He even explained to us how to do this in Romans 12:19-21.

Let me address this as well, because this is an important point and distinction.

Christ said lawlessness will abound. He never said ignore it or be indifferent about it. Note that he also said, "The poor you will always have with you." But he didn't mean don't worry about helping the poor. (Come to think of it, that's what the LR believed, Jo.)

As to the verses in Revelation 22, that is talking about after the final judgement. It is saying at that time there is no more opportunity to change the course of your life, that all decisions have been made and all destinies are set. If you made your bed with evil, that's where you'll sleep for eternity. If good, then you get that.

It isn't saying, as Jo seems to think, that we should be indifferent or blase about evil in the world. That is actually backwards. If the Church doesn't resist evil, who will? If the Church doesn't pray and take holy action about evil, who will? No, no, no! We are the representatives of God and were given dominion over the earth. It is precisely our responsibility to stand up to evil, in any form--in prayer, in speaking, in various mission works. Yes, the gospel is at the center of our purpose. But the gospel is about setting captives free and righteousness reigning.

The LR was completely backwards on this. They sat in their ivory tower and looked coldly out at the world and said, "Who cares? We are too spiritual to need to care." How is the kingdom supposed to come with that attitude?

Jesus mentioned the Church only twice. He mentioned it in the universal sense (Matt 16) and the local sense (Matt 18). But when he mentioned it in the local sense he didn't talk about worship, gospel preaching, teaching, service or sitting around talking about high peak truths. He said the church is the place you go to get JUSTICE (Matt 18:15-17). Now, isn't that interesting? So, if the Church is the expression of God then he was saying that to express God is to value, seek and provide justice. And justice practically by definition includes dealing with the unjust, even Matthew 18 implies that.

The LR, let me say again, had all this completely wrong. They had no interest in being involved in seeking justice. But if you read the Old Testament, God commands his people again and again to right wrongs, seek justice and stand up for the oppressed. It is part of our commission. I'm not talking about doing things in the flesh, but rather resisting and exposing evildoers of all kinds, ESPECIALLY BULLIES, BECAUSE IT IS BULLIES THAT OPPRESS. Like I said, if God's ambassadors don't lead the charge, who will? The atheists?

Yes, Lee condemned Christianity, and that was wrong. But was Lee seeking justice? Was he ministering to the oppressed? Was he standing up to bullies? No. He was just pushing his brand. You have to see the difference. The Bible says we will judge angels. If you can't see the difference between a bully and someone who stands up to one then I'm not sure what to say except pray more about it.

We cannot right all wrongs, just like we cannot feed every hungry person. But that's doesn't mean we shouldn't do what we can. Like I said, if God's people don't step up, who will?

Sometimes I think some Christians actual want the world to get worse, so that Christ will come back and take them away from it all. People with that attitude may be in for a shock.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Sometimes I think some Christians actual want the world to get worse, so that Christ will come back and take them away from it all. People with that attitude may be in for a shock.

The interesting thing about Jesus, he never passed by the sick, saying, "Too bad for you- gotta go and give a message!" Like James 2:16, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled" as one does nothing. No, the NT - either gospel nor epistle - doesn't show this.

Of course there is a danger of becoming the monster we fight. I think I've got righteous indignation but because I'm not righteous it's just indignation. Christ is the only remedy, not Aron's anger. Sometimes in my posts, people get my unmet needs and unresolved issues even as I rail against Nee and Lee et al imposing their unmet needs on the assembly.

That's what the Little Flock/Lord's recovery did - it built itself up on pointing out the sins of "Christianity" and assiduously covered its own, becoming worse than what it judged. I think that's worth keeping in mind. No one's immune. Pointing out the sickness requires pointing out the cure. Otherwise you just go, "Hey look at you! Sick! Too bad!" as you go off to the movies or whatever.

My point is, "Physician, heal thyself" - if we don't get healed, we can't facilitate healing. That's just how it works. That's what James meant, and he was a disciple of Jesus.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

This is a recurring theme on this forum. Someone on some thread shared about two verses in Proverbs that I thought was instructive. There are two proverbs one after the other, the first says "do not rebuke a fool lest you be like him" which I think is your point. The next says "rebuke a fool lest he be wise in his own deceit" which I think is Igzy's point.

If I recall correctly the way it was shared is that our first response should be the first verse unless that becomes untenable, in which case we must go to the second.

So much of what WL said was quite insulting, and you could be offended at some of the posts on this forum as also being insulting. If possible we don't want to become like that. However, once it crosses the line where believers are being stumbled, abused, slandered, and sued. Well at some point you have to rebuke the fool. Hence the need for this forum.

So what you're really trying to say, ZNPaaneah, is that Igzy and I are both fools? Right?

The more fitting Proverb to summarize what I'm trying to say is Proverbs 14:12;

"There is a way that appears to be right, but in the end it leads to death."

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Weighingin

To Jo S and Awareness:
I apologize for my abyss/monster quotation, that was overkill. I was trying to respond to your post, but I didn't think it through. I don't write or express
things as well as a lot of you. Maybe I can express my response to your posts by an example.

No need to apologize, Weighingin. It was actually fitting to my point.

However since Awareness openly acknowledged admiration for Neitzsche here, I thought I'd briefly address this.

Neitzsche speaks about the "ego" or "shadow-self". This is his version of the soul. Guys like him don't acknowledge that sin exists. Because of this, they do not separate sin from the soul (or ego/shadow-self) but equate them, and then teach that the ego is the problem when in reality it's sin thus tossing both sin out along with the soul.

Essentially what he does is no different then what Nee and Lee did in their teachings of losing your soul-life. And it's the same thing that all gnostics do, claim everything of man (including their soul) is evil.

It's no surprise Neitzsche was a nihilist, or didn't believe in an ultimate meaning and purpose to existence. It's because he waged war against the part of him that is made in God's image. And without God, there's ultimately no purpose to life. All you're left with is fleeting passion, desires, and fleeting man-made movements.

So to go from Nee/Lee to Neitzsche is effectively the abyss staring back at you.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Jo S

The more fitting Proverb to summarize what I'm trying to say is Proverbs 14:12;

"There is a way that appears to be right, but in the end it leads to death."

Funny how we usually think that way is the one the other guy is pushing.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

The interesting thing about Jesus, he never passed by the sick, saying, "Too bad for you- gotta go and give a message!" Like James 2:16, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled" as one does nothing. No, the NT - either gospel nor epistle - doesn't show this.

Every LC'er should go back to the story of the Good Samaritan in Luke 10 and read the punchline: "You go and do likewise."

LC teachers loved to expound this story condemning religious people, (Remember their favorite book, Christ vs. Religion?) but they always skipped the punchline. They loved to allegorize the robbers, the oil, and the wine, but left out the actual instructions from the Lord concerning the original question, "what must we do to inherit eternal life?"

Thus LC teachers would endlessly strain allegorical gnats, but pass the plain teachings of the camel.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Every LC'er should go back to the story of the Good Samaritan in Luke 10 and read the punchline: "You go and do likewise."

LC teachers loved to expound this story condemning religious people, (Remember their favorite book, Christ vs. Religion?)

Separating "religion" from Christ is another thing hyper-spiritualists or mystics will do.

There's false religion (Judges 3:7) and then there's a "pure religion' (James 1:27) Christians should adhere to. Religion isn't bad in and of itself. It's just a framework for worship.

It's fine to be religious just as long as you're following Christ's leading.

The reason Satan wants to make religion a scapegoat and apply the label to every form and structure of worship is to make everything about ambiguity or "spirit" as to cleverly introduce control mechanisms into worship. That way you can define things however you'd like. When mystics talk about "spirit", they're not referring to the Holy Spirit but the spirit of the world.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Jo S

No need to apologize, Weighingin. It was actually fitting to my point.

However since Awareness openly acknowledged admiration for Neitzsche, I thought I'd briefly address this topic.

Neitzcsche speaks about the ego or shadow-self. This is his version of the soul. Guys like him don't acknowledge that sin exists. Because of this, they equate sin to the soul (or ego/shadow-self) and teach that the ego is the problem when in reality it's sin.

Essentially what they do is no different then what Nee and Lee did in their teachings of losing your soul-life. And it's the same thing that all gnostics do, claim everything of man (including their soul) is evil.

It's no surprise Neitzsche was a nihilist, or didn't believe in an ultimate meaning and purpose to existence. It's because he waged war against the part of him that is made in God's image. And without God, there's ultimately no purpose to life. All you're left with is fleeting passion, desires, and fleeting man-made movements.

So to go from Nee/Lee to Neitzsche is effectively the abyss staring back at you.

LOL Jo S. But at least Nietzsche went mad. While Lee ended as the MOTA, and created the Blended Brothers to carry on the MOTA's legacy.

In that case, I'll go with crazy before that. Cuz it almost drove me as crazy as Nietzsche went.

But I'm impressed that you know at least something about Nietzsche, other than just his infamous God is dead.

I'm also impressed that Aron got his monster metaphor, in that Lee's local church became the monster they were critical of about all the rest of Christianity.

Thanks Weightinin for the Nietzsche quote. Nietzsche went crazy fighting monsters. Christians give Nietzsche short shrift. But Nietzsche was just as concerned as them about the effects of Modernity ; Christians upon their Biblical faith ; and Nietzsche about the loss of grand mythological systems over all. Cuz modernity was killing God, and all other gods too.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Separating "religion" from Christ is another thing hyper-spiritualists or mystics will do.

Religion isn't bad in and of itself. Religion is just a framework for worship.

There's false religion (Judges 3:7) and then there's a "pure religion' (Jn 1:27) Christians should adhere to.

Agreed.

Religion in itself is benign. Lee made it the bogey man, thus designing the foil by which he could condemn all others, and then claim his work alone was not religion. Lee adamantly proclaimed the recovery to be the "move" of God, and not a "movement" of man. It was a factoid. Spoken regularly until we all believed it.

Neither Jesus nor the Apostles ever condemned religion. Jesus rather condemned hypocrisy, especially when the Pharisees used their traditions to make void the word of God, and prevented people from coming to Him. Sounds real familiar folks.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

LOL Jo S. But at least Nietzsche went mad. While Lee ended as the MOTA, and created the Blended Brothers to carry on the MOTA's legacy.

In that case, I'll go with crazy before that. Cuz it almost drove me as crazy as Nietzsche went.

But I'm impressed that you know at least something about Nietzsche, other than just his infamous God is dead.

I'm also impressed that Aron got his monster metaphor, in that Lee's local church became the monster they were critical of about all the rest of Christianity.

Thanks Weightinin for the Nietzsche quote. Nietzsche went crazy fighting monsters. Christians give Nietzsche short shrift. But Nietzsche was just as concerned as them about the effects of Modernity ; Christians upon their Biblical faith ; and Nietzsche about the loss of grand mythological systems over all. Cuz modernity was killing God, and all other gods too.

Folks, can we take the mad Nietzsche, his monsters, and his "concerns" for Christians to Alt-Views?

awareness is the moderator there.

Today Nietzsche is dead, and God is very much alive. He is risen!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Lee adamantly proclaimed the recovery to be the "move" of God, and not a "movement" of man. It was a factoid. Spoken regularly until we all believed it.

And even those who have left refer it as "The LORD's Recovery." Just look at the title of this thread.

I ask again : Is it now?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by awareness

And even those who have left refer it as "The LORD's Recovery." Just look at the title of this thread.

I ask again : Is it now?

Short answer: No.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Short answer: No.

Then let's stop calling it that. What's LR stand for?

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by awareness

LOL Jo S. But at least Nietzsche went mad. While Lee ended as the MOTA, and created the Blended Brothers to carry on the MOTA's legacy.

In that case, I'll go with crazy before that. Cuz it almost drove me as crazy as Nietzsche went.

I feel your pain, Awareness. I've seen the effects in the members that I come to know.

According to Isaiah 53, there wasn't anything impressive about Jesus that would draw people to him.

The Local Churches however sold a mystical, subjective, corporate, high-peak truth Jesus. While this Jesus on the surface looked impressive it unfortunately wasn't the Jesus of scripture.

When you were told, "you just need more Jesus" to heal, they weren't necessarily lying but they were deceived.

So now many who leave "the recovery" when they hear those same words react negatively and turn to other means of healing. In God's mercy He can still use those means however we should still to our best ability strive to set our sights on Christ in all things.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by awareness

Then let's stop calling it that. What's LR stand for?

It stands for "What they call the Lord's Recovery but isn't."

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

And even those who have left refer it as "The LORD's Recovery." Just look at the title of this thread.

I ask again : Is it now?

Long answer: That's what they call it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Igzy

It stands for "What they call the Lord's Recovery but isn't."

Kind of like "the artist formerly known as Prince?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Kind of like "the artist formerly known as Prince?

Yes.

I've sometimes regretted my moniker "Igzy." Maybe I should change it to "Tafkai."

Also, I want to say that I came on too strong toward Jo S. Jo's point about being careful we don't become what we are resisting is valid. I apologize. We should always act in love. Love never fails.

[Cal]

Love -> Grace -> Fellowship -> Conflict -> Mistakes -> Reconciliation -> Growth -> Love -> Grace -> Fellowship -> Conflict -> Mistakes -> Reconciliation -> Growth -> Love -> Grace -> Fellowship -> Conflict -> Mistakes -> Reconciliation -> Growth -> Love -> Grace -> Fellowship -> Conflict -> Mistakes -> Reconciliation -> Growth -> Love -> Grace -> Fellowship -> Conflict -> Mistakes -> Reconciliation -> Growth -> Love -> Grace -> Fellowship -> Conflict -> Mistakes -> Reconciliation -> Growth -> Love -> Grace -> Fellowship -> Conflict -> Mistakes -> Reconciliation -> Growth -> Love -> Grace -> Fellowship -> Conflict -> Mistakes -> Reconciliation -> Growth -> Love

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Igzy

It stands for "What they call the Lord's Recovery but isn't."

Someone tell Greg and Jo.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by awareness

Someone tell Greg and Jo.

I think her calling it that was just habit.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Igzy

Also, I want to say that I came on too strong toward Jo S. Jo's point about being careful we don't become what we are resisting is valid. I apologize. We should always act in love. Love never fails.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by awareness

And even those who have left refer it as "The LORD's Recovery." Just look at the title of this thread.

I ask again : Is it now?

It is and it isn't. It depends how you define the word "Lord".

In Old Testament times, the Jews were constantly being seduced by foreign gods. One example of this is when Queen Jezebel introduced the false Canaanite god "Baal" into Jewish culture.

"Baal" literally translates into the word "Lord".

For the Jews, it was like a frog in boiling water. Slowly the bait and switch took place and before they knew it, they were worshipping the wrong "Lord". Yet I imagine they were still using the same terminology in worship.

Christians aren't immune to this. Many praise the Lord Jesus with their lips but their hearts are far away from him because they are worshipping the wrong "Lord".

So is the Lord's Recovery the Lord's Recovery? Well, yes and no.

Test all things!

[MrsFreedom]

The reason I called it the Lord's recovery in my letter was that I was directly speaking to the people in that system.

I knew I had one shot to reach them and hope they could hear what I had to say.

If I started out, "Dear Saints in the man-made system called the Lord's recovery..." I would have lost them. I was probably going to lose them anyway, but I wanted to at least try to reach them.

I no longer believe that "the Lord's recovery" is what I thought it was. For me personally when I was in it, I really believed that God was recovering christians from all over. The "ministry" and things "saints" said eventually caused me to realize it was just another system.

My use of the LC lingo throughout the entire letter was purely to reach the people still in it.

~J

[Jo S]

I think or hope most people understand that. We tend to get a bit overly philosophical here from time to time.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Jo S

I think or hope most people understand that. We tend to get a bit overly philosophical here from time to time.

Well, Harold does. Not me.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Jo S

It is and it isn't. It depends how you define the word "Lord".

In Old Testament times, the Jews were constantly being seduced by foreign gods. One example of this is when Queen Jezebel introduced the false Canaanite god "Baal" into Jewish culture.

"Baal" literally translates into the word "Lord".

For the Jews, it was like a frog in boiling water. Slowly the bait and switch took place and before they knew it, they were worshipping the wrong "Lord". Yet I imagine they were still using the same terminology in worship.

Christians aren't immune to this. Many praise the Lord Jesus with their lips but their hearts are far away from him because they are worshipping the wrong "Lord".

So is the Lord's Recovery the Lord's Recovery? Well, yes and no.

Test all things!

I hadn't thought of it that way. I can see how the Lord's Recovery is a empty claim, meant to lead the saints with a non-lord Lord.

If they were honest they'd call it Witness Lee's Recovery. After all, in 1994 Lee admitted that most of what he did for 32 yrs in America was by his natural man. As far as I was concerned by that time he didn't have to tell me that. I saw then, and now see, that just about all of the official line local church is natural man driven.

Years ago I saw that clearly when I discovered the elders were seeding the meetings, thereby subverting the Holy Spirit. It then took on the appearance of a cult to me. But I was only seeing the tip of iceberg at that time.

In truth, the whole official-line local church, the whole kit and caboodle, is natural man driven.

That's not to say that the saints didn't/don't touch the Lord in there, but they are following another guide than the Lord ... and the guide is Witness Lee.

So properly, it's a Witness Lees' Recovery.

[aron]

Originally Posted by awareness

So properly, it's a Witness Lees' Recovery.

If so then it's not Recovery but Continuation and Extension of Degradation. Kind of like FTTXB - it's rather FTTXD.

Speaking of the word "properly", Witness Lee used it a lot. What was "proper" and "genuine" and what was not. But what was the basis of such assessments? Personal preference, bias and self-interest.

There were two related mistakes at work here, both derived from missing the thrust of Jesus' teachings.

1. Thinking that the "beam" was in the other person's eye while yours only had a "splinter". This is backwards. It is your eye that has the worst impediment. This resulted in a teaching where "they" were deformed religion, the Mystery Harlot Babylon, while "we" were Isarael, in whom God sees no iniquity. What was the basis?

2. Jesus taught that when you are invited to a feast, take the least place. WN and WL tried to claim first place for themselves and their assemblies. Any problems or lacks were always with "Christianity" or those not under WN and WL, while their flocks were "real" and "legitimate".

On what basis was this said? Merely the wish that it were so. Better for book sales. So problems were unaddressed, growing. Look at what was posted yesterday on the Casteel FB page. Reports of things that are finally coming to light. The WL encomiums speak of messages given, books sold, churches established. They don't speak of lives damaged. But now people are talking about it.

May the Lord heal, restore, comfort, encourage, and yes recover. "Until we all arrive..."

[Cal]

There no reliable way of proving that the movement is uniquely "THE Lord's" or "THE Recovery" in the manner the LR says it is. Therefore doing so is presumptuous, reckless and irresponsible. They are putting words in the Lord's mouth.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Igzy

There no reliable way of proving that the movement is uniquely "THE Lord's" or "THE Recovery" in the manner the LR says it is. Therefore doing so is presumptuous, reckless and irresponsible. They are putting words in the Lord's mouth.

All things are the Lord's. Nothing has come into being that has come into being apart from Him.

Saying it is "the Lord's" recovery takes away any issue they can have with what the Lord does with what is His. Who are you to judge another person for what He does with what belongs to Him? If the Lord wants to use it as a cautionary tale on what can happen, that is His option. If the Lord wants to hold them up as an example to all the Lord's believers about what happens when you stumble the brothers that is up to Him. They cannot complain because their testimony has always been that it is "the Lord's" recovery.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

If the Lord wants to hold them up as an example to all the Lord's believers about what happens when you stumble the brothers that is up to Him. They cannot complain because their testimony has always been that it is "the Lord's" recovery.

Even as an attendee I felt it was a tad hopeful and presumptuous to label your latest actions as "The Lord's move" (aka "The Lord's Move to Europe, Asia" &c). Or my all-time favourite, that what you're doing is "Central Lane of the Divine Economy". Oh really, says who?

As ZNP says, perhaps recent events are also "the Lord's move" to expose what isn't His, that maybe those "high peaks" weren't quite so high as they were claimed to be.

[UntoHim]

Facebook posting by Jo Casteel June 25th 2019
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From a saint in the church in Fullerton,
“The elders in the church in Fullerton announced a sexual predators sin in the meeting last lord’s day. There were 12 accusations against him and they waited 6 years to expose him. I think your Facebook post helped to get it done.”

THIS. THIS IS WHY I’M SPEAKING UP. After releasing my letter I have had report after report coming in from saints from all over regarding hidden abuses.

I have had to be in touch with the police due to learning so many coverups in the Lord’s recovery. Some are from years ago, some are current. I have learned of more cases of assault on sisters than I would ever want to know. It’s been horrible having stories flooding in from the many abuses.

Want to know how many cases have been handled? FELLOWSHIP. Were the police called? NOPE. Were the other saints warned about the perpetrator? NOPE.

This culture has got to stop. It started with the covering up of Witness Lee’s sons Philip Lee and Timothy Lee. Our history is founded on a culture of covering up. The end justifies the means...

And to all the saints who say there are problems everywhere: Most groups are not claiming to be God’s move on earth AND the LORD’s recovery AND to be Philadelphia AND that they are becoming the New Jerusalem. With grand claims like that, comes grand responsibility.

And to all the saints asking me if I have sins. You bet I do. I am and was a top sinner. But I have never claimed to be the acting God on earth, or a deputy authority, commander in chief of the Lord’s army, the wise master builder, or the minister of the age. Someone in that position also shoulders great responsibility with the people under their care.

And to all the saints saying THEIR locality is just so amazing and reports things: GREAT. That’s a start. But what about the countless localities that haven’t and don’t? What about the feeling in the Body? What about compassion for the many who have been wounded in this system? You are a part of the problem if you are just happy about your locality and don’t have a feeling for what occurs in other localities.

The elders in our own locality made it clear they wouldn’t fellowship with Greg and I about any abuses that didn’t occur locally. They can get together and fellowship about the work on the campus regionally, but can’t discuss abuses that occur regionally. THIS IS A PROBLEM. This culture needs to change.

I’m in fellowship with several brave elders from other localities who are hoping to be an agent of change in this system. If the dear elders who are helping to shepherd the dear saints would shoulder some responsibility in this, many saints could be protected from damage.

Using keeping the oneness and fear of being divisive to keep so many abuses hidden is sick. I cannot and will not be quiet about this, even though this is one of the more difficult experiences of my life.

EDIT: I have now learned that the sexual predator from Fullerton is leaving the local churches in a public way. There is a possibility that the only reason the church in Fullerton is speaking up about him is due to him leaving the local churches.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------

[Cal]

Thank God for this brave sister. What a tiger. Somebody stand with her!

I can give you guys in the Local Churches the answer if you want it.

The answer is to cut ties with LSM and the bullying Blended Brothers.

You appreciate some of Lee's ministry? Fine. Don't you already have all you need of it? The man died 22 years ago. Do you think there are any crucial hidden riches of his remaining that are going to come out? Do you think the BBs are going to be able to add anything worth the trouble of dealing with their nonsense? They are already on record as saying they cannot and will not add to it. So the only function they perform is to regurgitate it and organize its distribution. The first is unnecessary and the second could be performed by a team of trained monkeys.

As for their so-called "leadership," it is the source of all the problems. Take a good look and tell me if you like what you see. These are the guys that hide sexual predators and punish their victims. Do you really want that kind of "leadership?" The Church is supposed to discern true leaders and apostles. It is not supposed to blindly submit to those who claim to be those things.

You have all that you need. You have enough ministry. You have the church. You have each other. You have fellowship with other churches and believers you trust.

YOU DON'T NEED THOSE GUYS. They have nothing good you don't already have and they have a lot of bad things that are hurting you. DUMP THEM!

That will solve the vast majority of your problems.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by UntoHim-Facebook posting by Jo Casteel June 25th 2019

It started with the covering up of Witness Lee’s sons Philip Lee and Timothy Lee.

I'm not on Facebook, but somebody needs to tell Jo that it actually started with Watchman Nee, and Lee's cover up of his sexual sins. Where do you think Philip and Timothy got it?

Basically, it rots from the head down.

But what can we expect? They are selling something. They are selling the "Lord's" Recovery. And they can't allow anything to dull the shine of it.

The Catholics aren't the only ones guilty of it. All the churches and denomination, and non-denominations do it.

A local very conservative Southern Baptist church here did it. One that I attended as a kid. They sent their confessed rapist thieving preacher up the road, with a letter of good recommendation. Why? Because they didn't want to stain the reputation of the church.

Personally, I think, Jesus should sue them all for defamation.

Originally Posted by Jo

And to all the saints who say there are problems everywhere: Most groups are not claiming to be God’s move on earth AND the LORD’s recovery AND to be Philadelphia AND that they are becoming the New Jerusalem. With grand claims like that, comes grand responsibility.

That's a valid point. They are definitely misrepresenting and defaming God, by claiming to be HIS movement on the earth.

But still, most groups claim to be representing Christ, God, and the Bible. They just have more sense than to claim they are God's one and only.

Originally Posted by Jo

And to all the saints asking me if I have sins. You bet I do. I am and was a top sinner. But I have never claimed to be the acting God on earth, or a deputy authority, commander in chief of the Lord’s army, the wise master builder, or the minister of the age.

My question to Jo is, what took you so long to catch on?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by awareness

The Catholics aren't the only ones guilty of it. All the churches and denomination, and non-denominations do it.

.....

My question to Jo is, what took you so long to catch on?

How long will it take, Harold, for you to catch on that your cynicism is also part of the problem?


I think your last comment was rude and inappropriate.

[aron]

On the FB thread they're talking about Daystar, and someone is asking, "Daystar is somewhat known. What about Linko? Other than the 1986 Elders Training tape and the Localchurchdiscussions forum, I would have never heard of it. Brothers I had asked have no idea what happened to the money for the proposed land development deal in Taiwan."

Originally Posted by askseek

Don R. on Daystar and other business failures

Linko was something that the office came up with. It was presented as an example of the wonderful God ordained leadership of the recovery. After a lot of money was raised and spent on the property and many plans made and a great hub bub made, the brilliant office learned that the land had not been approved for development and was basically useless.

I never supported this project and the young BBs promoted it as a means to humble the elders. Minuro gave a stirring speech at an elders coworkers meeting about how the elders would be blessed if they went to Linko and shoveled dirt. He promised that the Spirit would enliven you as you shoveled dirt and they would be greatly rewarded spiritually if they gave up being an elder and went to Linko to shovel dirt.

Just another boondoggle. Just another ridiculous project proposed by the office and the deputy authority. How things had changed!! Yet the Daystar fiasco was the beginning in the USA of one scheme after another which was divinely judged. We were very much like the nation of Israel. We had great victories and huge failures. Solomon built the temple and then his immorality and projects caused the nation to be divided. The Bible is faithful to record both the victories and blessings and the defeats and failures.

I recall a conversation with Witness Lee regarding the American character and his failure to take this factor into consideration. Witness Lee told me that he had learned that Americans are susceptible to “hero worship.” They do not critically consider what their leaders may propose. He believed that some of his wrong headed ideas had gotten support due to this flaw in the American character and that he needed to be careful not to take advantage of this weakness. Yet we know he repeatedly took advantage of this American characteristic.

----------

I would assume that every church handled these matters in their own way. In Dallas, we never presented Daystar to my knowledge even though there was a lot of talk as a brother attempted to sell them to the public and sometimes one was parked in our parking lot.

After a meeting, we permitted brother Chang to present his vitamin business. I bought some. Also we were contacted about a savings program that the LSM was sponsoring to encourage the young people to save their surplus. It was called “the little bankers.” An elder in a church would collect and record additions and interest to someone's account. I was asked to take care of the Dallas saints. I had a meeting with some of the young people and a few put in a few dollars. Unfortunately, I put $500 into an account for myself. We all thought we could just withdraw at any time. Then I learned the money went for a last ditch effort to keep Daystar afloat. Say goodbye to it. Later, WL asked me to sign a waver of forgiveness from the LSM. Silly me. I signed the release and kissed the money good-bye. Compared to what many lost in Daystar etc my little bit was something to just forget about.

I never mentioned Linko in Dallas but it was a big deal in Irving complete with models of the buildings to be built etc. Because the church in Dallas would not join in the cheerleading and fund raising from Irving there was more and more a strained relationship. Dallas did give money for Irving and the goal and purpose for the facility was shared. Benson came over a time or two and did some fund raising for that hall after a Lord’s table.

Usually Dallas had a sizable surplus in our bank accounts. On three occasions in Texas area elders meetings Benson and Ray put a press on Dallas to release our extra funds for Irving and LSM. We said no each time as our conscience did not agree that the money had been given by the saints for the questionable projects. This put quite a strain on our relationship.

Enough for now about these events. I am getting a little sick at my stomach.

Witness Lee's comments to Don R. on the "naiive and gullible Americans" is kind of funny coming from a Chinese. Looking at what happened in the PRC from 1989 on, with the importation of LSM slogans - "The age of the word is over, it is now the age of the spirit" - hello Lord Changshou Shouters -- I think the Americans have nothing on the Chinese.

However, I firmly believe Chinese culture has a place at the proverbial table. All cultures are welcome, at every table, for that matter. "From every tribe and tongue and nation"... 'nuff said. But for WL to say "no culture" in the LR church ensured the domination of his [Chinese] culture therein.

Every culture, tongue, people has aspects that can balance and enhance the others' (one of the things "naïve and gullible Americans" do, for instance, is discuss their failures, and their leaders' failures, and learn from them).

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by awareness

My question to Jo is, what took you so long to catch on?

Harold !!
Brainwashing, control, manipulation, fear are very strong strongholds. I commend her boldness, courage, and strength that came from ALMIGHTY GOD. It is much easier for a newbie in the LSM or an insignificant person in the LSM to walk out.

It is much much harder and YOU SHOULD KNOW THIS that those who were raised in the LSM, who have family and loved ones, friends and 'comfort' in the LSM due to their treatment because the way they are towing the line, etc to leave the LSM even though they see troubling situations. If you did not watch CHERNOBYL, it was an eye opener how brainwashed people were/are. They never questioned what they were told to do. If they did, they suffered the consequences.

In this case, she and the precious people in the LSM were/are bound by the lying teachers under Lee. It is just as common a problem in the RCC, in denominations, in the Mormon church, the JW, the diehard democrats, the diehard republicans... any group.

It is also a fact many people are controlled by their own opinions. I know several people who try to control conversations by stating vehemently their own opinions making it difficult for people to converse with them and consequently these opinionated people right or wrong in their views drive people away from them. I myself have been guilty of being controlled by my own opinions.

My spiritual life has been a work in progress but the more I commune with Christ and His Holy Spirit through reading, studying and praying, the more the LORD is helping me to express myself in spirit and in truth. I am still a work in progress but at least I am striving to be attentive to the SPIRIT living and operating in me. Just saying.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Facebook posting by Jo Casteel June 25th 2019
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

From a saint in the church in Fullerton,

“The elders in the church in Fullerton announced a sexual predators sin in the meeting last lord’s day. There were 12 accusations against him and they waited 6 years to expose him. I think your Facebook post helped to get it done.”

THIS. THIS IS WHY I’M SPEAKING UP. After releasing my letter I have had report after report coming in from saints from all over regarding hidden abuses.

I have had to be in touch with the police due to learning so many coverups in the Lord’s recovery. Some are from years ago, some are current. I have learned of more cases of assault on sisters than I would ever want to know. It’s been horrible having stories flooding in from the many abuses.

30 years ago, THE LORD sent men of God from around the globe to Witness Lee decrying the abuses and sexual immorality at LSM. They were gifted leaders from SoCal, Europe, Texas, Africa, Northeast, Southeast and personal co-workers with WL. Their accounts of events have filled this LCD Forum. Witness Lee discarded them all as trash, accused them of being vile lepers orchestrating a global rebellion -- all to protect his degenerate son Philip and his own growing empire.

15 years ago, THE LORD sent Lee's perhaps most gifted student Titus Chu to the Blendeds, using pages of quotes from Nee's and Lee's own writings. TC, highly respected in both the US and SE Asia, attempted to bring much needed reforms in the Recovery to leaders at LSM who had totally lost their way. They held a Kangaroo Court at their Whistler Resort ITERO in absentia accusing him of all sorts of non-biblical "heresies," like wanting clean sheets in Thailand. Since then every brother or sister protesting LSM's actions has also been thrown under the bus.

Today, these sins and crimes, past and present, have long been covered by Recovery leaders, while they punish the victims for speaking up. Abusers, molesters, and enablers are protected from accountability by numerous false teachings, dozens of legal threats by the DCP staff, and their horrendous bully pulpit. But times have changed. We have passed thru the #MeToo era, and have their most feared enemy -- the internet. Since the Recovery leadership will not listen to any of those THE LORD sends to them, they must be treated as Gentiles. Victims should call the police, and not their elders.

THE LORD hates evil shepherds that hurt His children. The Bible is filled with His attitudes about them. Recovery leaders have rejected every Prophet which THE LORD has sent to them. Has He not judged Israel for killing the prophets He sent to them. Maybe they will listen to the Police. Perhaps the Press.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

30 years ago, THE LORD sent men of God from around the globe to Witness Lee decrying the abuses and sexual immorality at LSM. They were gifted leaders from SoCal, Europe, Texas, Africa, Northeast, Southeast and personal co-workers with WL. Their accounts of events have filled this LCD Forum. Witness Lee discarded them all as trash, accused them of being vile lepers orchestrating a global rebellion -- all to protect his degenerate son Philip and his own growing empire.

15 years ago, THE LORD sent Lee's perhaps most gifted student Titus Chu to the Blendeds, using pages of quotes from Nee's and Lee's own writings. TC, highly respected in both the US and SE Asia, attempted to bring much needed reforms in the Recovery to leaders at LSM who had totally lost their way. They held a Kangaroo Court at their Whistler Resort ITERO in absentia accusing him of all sorts of non-biblical "heresies," like wanting clean sheets in Thailand. Since then every brother or sister protesting LSM's actions has also been thrown under the bus.

Today, these sins and crimes, past and present, have long been covered by Recovery leaders, while they punish the victims for speaking up. Abusers, molesters, and enablers are protected from accountability by numerous false teachings, dozens of legal threats by the DCP staff, and their horrendous bully pulpit. But times have changed. We have passed thru the #MeToo era, and have their most feared enemy -- the internet. Since the Recovery leadership will not listen to any of those THE LORD sends to them, they must be treated as Gentiles. Victims should call the police, and not their elders.

THE LORD hates evil shepherds that hurt His children. The Bible is filled with His attitudes about them. Recovery leaders have rejected every Prophet which THE LORD has sent to them. Has He not judged Israel for killing the prophets He sent to them. Maybe they will listen to the Police. Perhaps the Press.

30 years ago they covered their ears, eyes and mouth. Why? According to EM it made WL happy. 15 years ago they covered their ears and gnashed their teeth at Titus. So here we are today? Who is responsible for this? That is what I want to know.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Igzy

How long will it take, Harold, for you to catch on that your cynicism is also part of the problem?


I think your last comment was rude and inappropriate.

Well okay. But I caught on that the local church was/is a cult back circa 1980.

So I'm mystified by people that have join since then. And mystified by those staying in for decades since.

And maybe my last question was rude. Maybe not. Still it will likely be a question that troubles Jo and Greg for a long time.

And likely a question that troubles you. It's certainly a question that troubles me, still today. I chalk it up to ignorance. But that doesn't somehow satisfied the itch in the question.

We should all question it. How and why did we fall for it? And why didn't we catch onto it quickly?

And brother, you have no clue about the extent of my cynicism, toward the local church, and the human inclination to join cults in general. I see it happening all the time, and I'm puzzled by it.

My cynicism is a problem sure ... to those supporting the local church. I'm not much into coddling them. They didn't coddle me, nor many, many, untold many others, with their excommunicating and quarantining. They're playing it rough and tumble. So I don't want to hear whining when I give 'em rough and tumble back.

So shame, shame, on those that haven't caught on to the deception.

Still brother Igzy, I'm sorry for offending you. Mea Culpa.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Ohio

15 years ago, THE LORD sent Lee's perhaps most gifted student Titus Chu to the Blendeds, using pages of quotes from Nee's and Lee's own writings. TC, highly respected in both the US and SE Asia, attempted to bring much needed reforms in the Recovery to leaders at LSM who had totally lost their way. They held a Kangaroo Court at their Whistler Resort ITERO in absentia accusing him of all sorts of non-biblical "heresies," like wanting clean sheets in Thailand. Since then every brother or sister protesting LSM's actions has also been thrown under the bus.

Ohio, if Titus Chu was Lee's best student then what is that really saying considering all the distain here for Witness Lee?

I'll share what's undoubtedly going to be an unpopular view here on the forum.

The reason I came to these boards a little over a year ago was because of concern for the people I've gotten to know, not within Witness Lee's Local Churches, but within Titus Chu's.

I understand you left in 2006 so you may be unaware of what the Mid-West Local Churches look like today but I will say this; When I first started reading about Witness Lee and his ministry on the forums, I thought to myself how familiar it all looked and sounded...

Now I don't know Titus Chu intimately, and frankly I'm not sure if that's something that is even possible (because everyone's all so suspicious of one another), but I have seen enough to judge. And I've actually seen a lot...

From what I have seen, I can tell you this; the "Kangaroo court" and the quarantining of Titus for "selfish ambition" are both fully justified....at least in the sight of men. And I have good reason to say that.

After 13 years of so called "reform" and no real change or distinction in doctrine or practice between the LSM and GLA it's obvious that the Lord hadn't sent Titus at all, Titus sent Titus. If you want to know why reform didn't happened, Neitzsche and the abyss explains it.

Neither side listened to each other probably because both sides were seeking their own interests in 2006. Either way, why would you want to reform something that wasn't the Lord's to begin with?

If it's foolish to think God chooses sides in politics, the same applies here. LSM vs GLA in no different then Democrat vs Republican. Two opposing parties, same single system.

With that said, all that were directly involved on both sides need to repent for the damage this division caused to all the families. And anyone that's keeping that division alive isn't helping the situation.

Pray for Titus and pray for the leaders in the LSM so that they can be both reconciliated to each other and to Christ. But if no reconciliation takes place, then like Jo and Greg, people need to start leaving those unhealthy environments otherwise they'd just be fighting someone else's battle.

[Ohio]

Jo S, you're hovering over every thread.

Better take your politics over to Alt-Views.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

30 years ago they covered their ears, eyes and mouth. Why? According to EM it made WL happy. 15 years ago they covered their ears and gnashed their teeth at Titus. So here we are today? Who is responsible for this? That is what I want to know.

I want to know what "this" is?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Jo S

Ohio, if Titus Chu was Lee's best student then what is that really saying considering all the distain here for Witness Lee?

I've said before, that Dong Yu Lan and Titus Chu probably were Witness Lee's best students. When DYL's lieutenants told inquirer's that his (DYL) finances were a "black box" that none could open (questions were raised because DYL's children apparently were getting the commercial contracts to manage group housing and meeting spaces), I thought, "Boy that sounds just like WL with Saul Benoit." Coincidence? Probably not.

Likewise, Titus Chu wanted to be a Spiritual Giant (LSM's own term), and the Blendeds had said that the age of Spiritual Giants was over, so they pushed him out. His crime was that he wanted to be just like Witness Lee. At some point it should be painfully obvious that this is a system created and administered by fallen, grasping humans. It isn't the Lord's recovery. It is human selfishness fueling error. And how many people got hurt?

"It would be better that you do not stumble one of these little ones..."

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I want to know what "this" is?

When John I. came to Irving and talked to Ray and Benson they covered their ears, saying it was a local matter. They have to bear responsibility for that action. They participated in the sister's rebellion, facilitating the cover up of PL's sins. They have to bear responsibility for that action. When brothers raised alarms whether from Germany or Ohio, they attacked, slandered, and excommunicated them. They must take responsibility for those actions. All those actions have played a part in allowing abusers to run free in their little sect, and they are the ones responsible for that. They have been fully aware of what was going on from the first (I was in Houston when one of the victims of PL came to live there) and they chose to cover their ears, eyes and mouth. Well, they will be judged for every action they have done and also for all the things they have not done.

The Lord says "with what judgement you judge you shall be judged". I was quoting something Ray once said to me. A mistake had been made during the construction of the Irving meeting hall, I had supervised the brother who made the mistake and now Ray was berating us asking "I want to know who is responsible for this!" Which of course was me.

[Raptor]

The following is in reference to a recent post from Jo Casteel on her FB letter. She writes about a LSM video that came out announcing a monthly subscription to a "new" publication: "Ministry Digest". Please take note of the following definition of the "job" of an elder that is slipped in...(and then run the other way.)

“To be an elder is actually very easy. It’s very simple. We have one job: bring the ministry to the saints and bring the saints to the ministry. That solves all the problems in the church and it solves all the saints problems.”

http://bit.ly/2019FunctionofanElderMinistry

My take: When in the christian life and church life you make the goal something other than the faith, something other than Christ, you open the door for all kinds of other things to come in, no matter how good or "scriptural" that other goal is. When you make a man and his ministry the goal (it does not matter at all that you believe it is THE, unique, exclusive, complete and final ministry of the age), everything is distorted, because you have already misaimed concerning the faith.

So having been seduced by the bait of such a "noble MOTA cause" you arrive at a distorted understanding from which you leaven, reduce and distort the function of an elder to a "simple job" of bringing "the ministry to the saints and the saints to the ministry". You have allowed something else to come in.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Raptor

My take: When in the christian life and church life you make the goal something other than the faith, something other than Christ, you open the door for all kinds of other things to come in, no matter how good or "scriptural" that other goal is. When you make a man and his ministry the goal (it does not matter at all that you believe it is THE, unique, exclusive, complete and final ministry of the age), everything is distorted, because you have already misaimed concerning the faith.

So having been seduced by the bait of such a "noble MOTA cause" you arrive at a distorted understanding from which you leaven, reduce and distort the function of an elder to a "simple job" of bringing "the ministry to the saints and the saints to the ministry". You have allowed something else to come in.

I remember a comment TC made about "door-knocking." Every last detail was spelled out for the "door-knockers;" nothing was left to chance, the technique was perfected -- what to wear, what to say, how to answer, and don't forget to "turn left" once you finish with the last house.

Then TC quipped in a Cleveland brothers meeting, "we should hire unbelievers to do this, they could do a better job than us."

[aron]

(Recently posted on the FB page)

“CULT-LIKE MATH 101”

(➕ ➖ ✖️ ➗)

4 ways to identify “cult-like” behaviors with simple MATH:

➕ “Cults” typically publish their own materials in addition to the Bible, and end up promoting them beyond the Bible itself. They feel that the Bible is insufficient in itself and distribute their own “publications” that they use to explain and promote their beliefs and positions above and beyond that of the Bible. / Any questions here??? Go to any “local church” meeting and what are the majority if not ALL of the “followers” speaking and quoting from?? Check the name on the side of it. Witness Lee/LSM?? What books do they have on display there?? Any outside of LSM publications??? How many? (Do the math!) ✔️

➖ “Cults” typically also detract or devalue truths in the “Bible”. Examples from LSM: 1) Teaching that the miracles that the Lord performed are not “relevant” today, that they were only relevant to prove that Jesus was the messiah, and are not “relevant” today... / EXCEPT that Jesus said that even greater things will be done in His name after He goes to the Father and the gift of the Holy Spirit is received by the believers. 2) Teaching that speaking in tongues is immature and not “relevant” today... / EXCEPT that Paul said he spoke in tongues “more than all of you”
3) Teaching that the book of James is too “low” and should not have been included in the Bible... / NO COMMENT needed here.
COMMENT: “Why are there so few “miracles” or “unexplainable acts of God” or even “fruit of the Spirit” experienced or observed in the “LSM churches”??? EASY: Read the end of Mathew 13: “Jesus did not perform many miracles there because their unbelief/lack of faith.” ✔️

✖️ “Cults” typically magnify, revere, and/or elevate a “man” to an “exalted” status. That one is easy: Witness Lee. Teaching that he was the last and greatest “minister of the age”, and that there will be no one else after him. At every “semi-annual training”, at least one significant portion of a message is taken to “defend” or “elevate” and promote the importance of Witness Lee, above that of any other member of the Body of Christ. / There is only ONE man who was ever “greater” than any other man; His name is Jesus! Even Paul himself said do not be a “follower” of him, and that he was the “least of these” and “unworthy to be called an apostle”. Paul did not think of himself as greater or higher or more significant than any other believer, and yet he wrote and unveiled the majority of the New Testament ministry or “economy”. / To this day, LSM churches use and quote almost, if not exclusively “Witness Lee” writings and publications in meetings. In fact they quote Witness Lee by far more than Paul or Jesus Himself. ✔️

➗ This one is easy. “Cults” typically create an atmosphere of “exclusivity” which in turn creates further division(s) among the body of Christ. That one has been mentioned and explained sufficiently in other posts. They speak of “poor poor Christianity”, demean and devalue other believers, including not recognizing other groups of believers as valid “local churches” that don’t follow the teachings of “Witness Lee”. ✔️

While you may not find some of these details specifically mentioned within the writings, teachings and/or publications of Witness Lee directly, you will undoubtedly find such RAMPANT views taught and propagated throughout their practices, gatherings, and “trainings”. To be clear, I have never read or heard (from multiple videos and publications) Witness Lee personally exalt himself to such status. Nor did I find his teachings and own words (for the most part) to promote such divisive and errant practices. However, I was personally trained by his supposed appointed leadership and successors, often referred to as “Brother We”, for two full years, completing the FTTA in 2002. I was most certainly taught by them directly, in addition to countless “elders” throughout the US, such errant, divisive, and “cult-like” practices, attitudes, and positions. But the most telling evidence, of course, is in the THOUSANDS of testimonies of those who have personally experienced the “fruit”/damage of such ministry, left such ministry, and continue to stand and testify to such atrocities.

Why such a strong word as “atrocities” you might ask?? That is in reference to the even GREATER number of lives who were raised or spent a substantial portion of their lives under such “ministry”, and who after experiencing such damaging “fruit” have ultimately lost, left and/or given up altogether their faith in God, who were taught/“brainwashed” the better part of their lives that there is nowhere else they could possibly meet on the earth, with any other group(s) apart from such self-proclaimed “local churches”, where they could find the riches and richness of the Lord Himself among other believers. I know countless numbers of them personally, as do the hundreds and thousands of those who have also publicly spoken their testimonies both here and elsewhere throughout the past decades, that have ultimately given up hope in “God” altogether because of that they were taught. By the way, that includes me also, where it has taken me years to get beyond such errant and divisive teachings to finally find the full peace and joy once again to pursue the Lord with “normal”, humble, seeking Christians among other groups. Yet WOW, what a joy it is to finally be set free from such bondage, clouds and darkness, and to once again be reunited with such pure, genuine, healthy, humble, seeking, loving, “fruit of the Spirit”-filled believers within the body of Christ, where NO “man” is exalted, except the NAME ABOVE ALL NAMES, the Messiah Himself, JESUS CHRIST OUR LORD!!!

Jesus is Lord! Let NO other name be exalted!!!

But finally, make no mistake about it... My heart breaks and even mourns for those, many of which I consider to be some of the dearest believers and friends I have ever known, who are so deeply entrapped, entangled, and snared by it, and know no other way to go on with the Lord, apart from or outside of such dark and diluted, toxic “ministry”. This is by no means a personal attack directly against them, although I imagine most will receive it as such. Yet what does one do who so dearly loves the so many who blindly (horse blinders) and/or unknowingly continue to drink from such poisonous cup. Does one just leave quietly or silently and NOT sound the alarm or cry out to warn those whom they love concerning the poison within such cup that they have finally been able to so clearly identify. I can only imagine what happened to those who tried to do the same among other “cult-like” groups from within. I can only imagine how the leadership within those “cults” or “cult-like” groups referred to, spoke of, warned of, and taught concerning those who spoke out or resisted... Maybe like I was taught for two years, that they were the “opposers”, the “rebellious ones”, the “unclear ones”, “those without a proper governing or controlling vision” (well at least they admit to the “controlling” part there). Maybe they were also “inoculated”, or discouraged to not listen to, or be open to, or objectively consider any such criticism. Maybe they were also warned to not read such criticism as it would open them up to being “poisoned” too (another FEAR tactic).

SOUND FAMILIAR ANYONE???

Yet how would one come to realize that they were in fact being poisoned decade by decade, year after year, drop by drop???

Maybe by reading the word once again. Maybe by appealing to the Lord to open their eyes to see. Or maybe by simply considering the fruit from the tree... or LACK thereof??

Growth vs stagnation?
Lasting fruit vs diminished?
Oneness vs divisiveness?
Love vs judgement & criticism?
Humility vs pride?
Freedom vs control?
A “god-man” vs God HIMSELF?

Who do you follow???

A man who died 22 years ago?

Or a man who resurrected over 2000 years ago, and still lives today???

Don’t tell me “both.” Don’t bring up your “Paul and Timothy” analogy again. Timothy didn’t raise up churches to only teach and speak the words of Paul. You don’t see any other group of believers who meet and only publish, read, and speak from the writings of Paul. Or Peter. Or John. Or any other disciple. Or any other apostle... do you???

SO WHY WITNESS LEE ??? !!! ???

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by aron

Likewise, Titus Chu wanted to be a Spiritual Giant (LSM's own term), and the Blendeds had said that the age of Spiritual Giants was over, so they pushed him out. His crime was that he wanted to be just like Witness Lee. At some point it should be painfully obvious that this is a system created and administered by fallen, grasping humans. It isn't the Lord's recovery. It is human selfishness fueling error. And how many people got hurt?

Not to take away from anything in Jo's letter, but the ongoing power struggle between LSM and GLA is what's causing most harm to the people in the LC's today. Even if they're not directly involved in that struggle, they're unintentionally being caught in the crossfire.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Raptor

The following is in reference to a recent post from Jo Casteel on her FB letter. She writes about a LSM video that came out announcing a monthly subscription to a "new" publication: "Ministry Digest". Please take note of the following definition of the "job" of an elder that is slipped in...(and then run the other way.)

“To be an elder is actually very easy. It’s very simple. We have one job: bring the ministry to the saints and bring the saints to the ministry. That solves all the problems in the church and it solves all the saints problems.”

http://bit.ly/2019FunctionofanElderMinistry

So an elder's job is very easy, you are a salesman for LSM. Sell the ministry, that is it.

Those not familiar with the LC may confuse "bring the saints to the ministry" with Paul's word that an elder should be counted as double honor who is able to minister the word. But our experience has shown they are not interested in elders who can minister the word, that is the fast track to becoming a target of LSM. No, "bring the saints to the ministry" simply means be a good salesman of LSM materials.

[byHismercy]

I knew I should have signed up for Cult Math when I had the chance.....I am so happy for Jo and her family....the Lord pulled the veil away, blessing them. He is who I credit for allowing me to see the system we were in.....I do feel it was a veil over my face. Asking Jo why she didn't see it sooner is silly, Harold. 'Why didn't you know back before you knew!?!' I think the deception of the LC goes deeper with those they consider 'outsiders', vs those on the inside, though. That is exactly why it is so insidious! At any rate, God bless Jo and family! Rebel Lady!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

I knew I should have signed up for Cult Math when I had the chance.....I am so happy for Jo and her family....the Lord pulled the veil away, blessing them. He is who I credit for allowing me to see the system we were in.....I do feel it was a veil over my face. Asking Jo why she didn't see it sooner is silly, Harold. 'Why didn't you know back before you knew!?!' I think the deception of the LC goes deeper with those they consider 'outsiders', vs those on the inside, though. That is exactly why it is so insidious! At any rate, God bless Jo and family! Rebel Lady!

Amen byHismercy. To me the math is simple. If it's not "The Lord's Recovery" then it's a religious cult.

And amen to Greg and Jo for opening up a #MeToo movement in the LSM local churches.

And I discovered that the local church was a cult way back in the early 80s. But I guess everyone discovers it in their own time.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by awareness

Amen byHismercy. To me the math is simple. If it's not "The Lord's Recovery" then it's a religious cult.

And amen to Greg and Jo for opening up a #MeToo movement in the LSM local churches.

And I discovered that the local church was a cult way back in the early 80s. But I guess everyone discovers it in their own time.

Yeah man! Let us catch up! In the eighties I still had imaginary friends, lol. And I think Jo is younger still. It is hard to see the truth when it is being "religiously" stifled or rewritten by those around you.

[Cal]

Like I said, Satan fears true seekers. He tries to entrap lazy Christians in the world. He tries to entrap seeking Christians in controlling groups and belief systems. His whole goal is to get us off-track from God's true plan for us, by whatever means necessary, in order to put off his inevitable judgment as a crispy critter. That's all that is going on.

The only way we can find God's true plan for us is by abiding in a realm of freedom sufficient to allow each of us to hear and obey his specific words to us.

The healthiest churches respect the calling of each individual Christian. If you say you feel called to move to South America to do mission work, they respect it. If you say you feel called to become a Christian writer, they respect it. If you say you feel called to work with children, or the elderly, or special needs people, they respect it. They respect your leading and conscience within the general biblical parameters of vision and morality.

They may not be able to provide a place in their particular church to accommodate your leading, but guess what, that is why there are so many options and venues out there--so many churches and ministries and approaches to fit need and burden.

The LR has its own narrow set of purposes, and expects everyone to fit within them. But to say that only what the LR is doing is part of God's plan is what they call a Whopper--a lie so preposterous that it defies rebuttal.

Surely it is obvious that God is blessing, supplying and leading so many churches and ministries out there. There can be no denying. There are genuine needs that the LR is neither equipped to nor interested in dealing with. That's their choice. But to say that the churches and ministries that do address those needs are irrelevant or second-rate is the height of arrogance and stupidity.

[HERn]

The way I see it, the main structural problem with Ron Kangus and the other being blinded brothers is that they have graduated themselves from the simple teachings of Jesus in the gospels and then the teachings of the apostles Paul, John, Peter and James to promote the unhealthy teachings of Lee. Of this they will never repent.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by awareness

And I discovered that the local church was a cult way back in the early 80s. But I guess everyone discovers it in their own time.

Yeah some of us it takes longer than others and some of us spend some of the time defending the cult label (in my case it was "it's all in the leadership") until we can no longer defend the indefensible.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Jo Casteel FB Page

Brother Lee characterized brothers with beards as looking like demons in the following direct quote from “Living Christ.” He acknowledges that everyone had outward conformity, but doesn’t seem to realize WHY they would do such a thing. Someone who is exalted to be the oracle of God, the Commander in Chief, the acting God, the Minister of the Age, etc. needs to think about the effect their words will have on others. The same could be said of the “Blending Brothers” we have today.

“In America I saw many young men with long hair and beards. When they walked into the meeting hall, I, a Chinese, had to examine them closely to determine whether they were humans or demons. They were actually humans, but from the back they looked like demons, and from the front they looked like cats full of whiskers. After they had been in the church life for a period of time, they cut their hair short and shaved off their beards. I was very happy to see their new look. At first, I thought that this was the transformation of the life within them. I also boasted to others, saying, “You see, the local church is very powerful; it can cause a long-haired man to cut his hair short and a bearded man to shave his face clean. This is the transformation of life.” However, after a while, I realized that this wasn't transformation of life but conformity to what they saw in the local church. Why do I say this? Because even though a person’s hair has been shortened and his beard shaved away, his nature remains untouched. Do you believe that this one has truly been transformed? No, he's not been transformed but has merely changed his attire. If he were truly transformed, not only would his hair be shortened and his beard shaved off, but his nature would also be dealt with.”

This is a "frank word" from Witness Lee in "Living Christ" (p. 15)

I see 2 problems with this quote: first, such a word tends towards high-control systems. Uniformity = Control. It's formulaic. Everyone must look the same, dress the same, think the same, speak the same. This is contrary to the scripture where "star differs from star in glory". God made things with diversity. But in the Lord's Recovery everyone must be a "small potato" and not stick out, not be different. And if you think this was an anomaly, and actually everyone in the LR is so free, the footnotes in the RecV in Revelation 2 and 3 show otherwise. In speaking on the epistles to the seven churches, Witness Lee held that the source of their problems was that they were different from one another. All local churches must be "exactly identical" and "with no differences whatever". (This thought was based on the seven golden lampstands. But did you ever see a hand-beaten gold calyx or almond blossom [Exod 25:33] look "exactly identical" to each other? But I digress).

Second, WL says peoples' nature must be dealt with. Okay, but this is from someone who bilked church members out of thousands of dollars for son Timothy's motor home business. How many thousands? I think that the local church in Boston gave $100,000.00, but how much from others? We don't know. The inheritance from So Cal that started it all, how much was that, and how much came back (if any) - we don't know (and this was early '70s money, when $100K could buy something). We've read that some lost their life savings. How many investors, and how much that was, we don't know, because WL didn't want to talk about it. "None of your business" was his answer - and this to ones that put up the money! Is this a transformed human? It looks to me that Witness Lee was able to dig into his "subjective" bag of tricks, and declare who was "truly transformed" and who wasn't, even when his own living (and of his sons) gave strong indication of not being so.

And installing his other son Philip as Office Manager at LSM - does this appointment show a pattern of being dealt with, or rather of not being dealt with, of avoiding having one's nature touched? Can't have the Minister of the Age, the Humble Bondslave of Christ, the Deputy God lose face! The system might collapse... revenues might fall off! So Witness Lee remained, in a word, untouchable. The LR system was built on the so-called oracle of God speaking such "frank words" and through them touching others, yet none could touch him or his fallen human nature.

[Ohio]

Here is a recent post from FaceBook concerning this "Open Letter" ...

“For there must be factions among you, that those who are approved may be evident” I Cor,. 11:19. Whenever trouble arises within Christian gatherings, all are put to the test. How will each one react? Will those who claim spiritual authority silence those who raise concerns? Will they kick out the “troublemakers”? Will the concerned ones who just want to talk about troubling issues be labeled as negative and opposers? Will they be shunned? Once the concerned ones are put out or leave, will their names be slandered and all sorts of evil spoken about them?

Last night I had a long conversation with a brother who was an elder in a local church. He was ill for a couple of years and unable to attend meetings, so resigned his eldership. When he was able to return, the “new way” (~1985 to ?) was in full swing. The focus was no longer life, abiding in Christ, but the work. Everyone must get on board, get trained how to door knock, go to Taiwan for training, was pressured to give all your money above your basic needs. Meetings were focused on work, work, work, no longer on Christ as life. This brother saw many saints discouraged. They just couldn’t keep up with all the demands and pressure. Leadership was shunning the members who did not get fully on board the “new way.” So in one meeting he shared that each one must listen to the Lord, follow His speaking, and participate according to the Lords leading. This word got back to the main leading brother that this brother was speaking against the “new way.”

The main leading brother gave a message that one among them was a wolf in sheep’s clothing. Suddenly this brother and his wife were shunned in the meetings. No one would have anything to do with them. Brethren whom they loved, cared for, and labored with for years treated them as if they were lepers. Then this brother and wife were excommunicated from the church. To this day, twenty eight years later, their names are still vilified in the church there.

For those of us who lived thru the "New Way," stories like this were common place. I heard stories of brothers who just "loved the ministry" being attacked by those who were "absolutely one with the ministry." This kind of radical combative zeal was fostered by Lee himself thru intermediaries.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

For those of us who lived thru the "New Way," stories like this were common place. I heard stories of brothers who just "loved the ministry" being attacked by those who were "absolutely one with the ministry." This kind of radical combative zeal was fostered by Lee himself thru intermediaries.

Having concerns becomes equated with "attacking" the ministry.
Hey, our conscience and our emotions don't come equipped with an on/off switch. They can't be turned on or off at whim.
No one having "concerns" is seeking to create any faction. When a brother or sister gets labeled as such, it makes you wonder those doing the labeling are projecting the "faction" label.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

Having concerns becomes equated with "attacking" the ministry.
Hey, our conscience and our emotions don't come equipped with an on/off switch. They can't be turned on or off at whim.
No one having "concerns" is seeking to create any faction. When a brother or sister gets labeled as such, it makes you wonder those doing the labeling are projecting the "faction" label.

And how different were these young "New Way" zealots who went around attacking all of those not sufficiently zealous for Lee's every decree.

For those who missed this delightful time, the "New Way" was not just a single "New Way" passed down from headquarters, but a continuum of ministry mandates demanding almost daily changes and immediate obedience. Lee claimed he was in a "laboratory" trying out new experiments on God's people. Yesterday's "New Way" literally became today's "Old Way," and ignorance of the latest ministry directive was suicidal to one's standing with LSM.

One can not help but draw parallels between the ministry zealots of Lee's "New Way" and Chairman Mao's Red Guards with their vicious attacks on the "Four Olds" of Chinese society -- old customs, old culture, old habits and old ideas.

[Trapped]

One of Jo Casteel's recent responses on her FB post:

---
They speak so much about only caring for "life" but in recent years I really started noticing how much oppression, darkness, and anger there was in the speaking. I just listened to message 5 from last weeks semi-annual on the "The Water for Impurity." The ENTIRE message was on death and rebellion. It was awful. The saints are under so much fear and oppression.

Here is one direct quote from Mark Roby, "Don’t listen to speaking that has the element of death. Don’t listen to any speaking that has the element of rebellion. If you do and you might even say, well it’s true. You know what? Like I told you, death has good, evil, and knowledge. You say, It’s factual…yeah part of what the devil spoke to Eve was factual and part of it wasn’t. That’s the way death comes. Death comes in a sneaky way. Death comes in a camouflaged way. You say, well there’s an element of truth to that? Yeah, there’s also an element of death and an element of rebellion. If you want that, you just take in that kind of speaking into your vessel, you will be dead. And, let me tell you, somebody is going to have to spend some time to try to help you out of that death. You can’t get out of it quickly. I just ask you, I know too many saints. Nobody poisoned them. They poisoned themselves. Reading things that they know will cause death. Taking things in that they know includes death and rebellion. Lets for this purpose, let’s close our vessel and tie down the lid. The only thing we let in is life. We let the water in and we don’t let any death in.”

I was thinking to myself, yup, I have my lid on now. I'm not letting any of your death in!
---

It has occurred to me that if someone relaying their truthful and very negative experiences in the LC is going to be categorized as "death"......all that does is confirm that death is present in the LC.

This is her experience. The LC calls it death. So the LC is essentially agreeing (without realizing it) that these experiences within their system are real and negative and death.

Maybe there is hope yet!

[Raptor]

Have you seen the recent letter from another ex-LCer Jo Casteel refers to? Another must read......

https://tinyurl.com/y2s5xodh

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by JoCasteel

Brother Lee was even held in such high regard that we exhumed his body in 2004, nearly seven years after he died in 1997 (http://bit.ly/ReburiedBrotherLee) and moved him to Grace Terrace, a multi-million dollar graveyard purchased for and by the saints so the saints would not have to be buried with Christians from Christianity. In the “Fellowship Concerning Grace Terrace” video we said that, “the saints would not have to be buried in cemeteries that have all kinds of evil things there, and worldly things, religious things which are mostly worldly, but that the recovery could have something set aside for its own behalf”

This has got to be the biggest scam ever inflicted upon the LC's. Can you imagine hundreds of brothers from around the country showing up for a funeral service RE-burying WL in a "less evil, less worldly, less religious" plot which he doesn't have to share with anyone from "poor, poor, Christianity?" This just blows my mind. I was in the Recovery when this happened in 2004, and I never knew this.

Does anyone know if Philip or Timothy Lee is buried there at Grace Terrace? If LSM demands a "less evil, less worldly, less religious" burial plot for their beloved idol, then they better not let his decaying carcass any where near his kids.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This has got to be the biggest scam ever inflicted upon the LC's. Can you imagine hundreds of brothers from around the country showing up for a funeral service RE-burying WL in a "less evil, less worldly, less religious" plot which he doesn't have to share with anyone from "poor, poor, Christianity?" This just blows my mind. I was in the Recovery when this happened in 2004, and I never knew this.

Does anyone know if Philip or Timothy Lee is buried there at Grace Terrace? If LSM demands a "less evil, less worldly, less religious" burial plot for their beloved idol, then they better not let his decaying carcass any where near his kids.

Ohio,
I knew that Lee was “frozen” for 30 days before his first funeral so “everybody could get there” but I had not heard that his body was moved to another location either.

I don’t know that it’s gross and hideous to relocate a body from one cemetery to another. It probably happens more often than we know for more practical reasons...without fanfare...just do what you need to do. What’s gross and hideous is making a show of it; having a “re-burial” service (really?) and basically saying out loud that a dead body is “too good” to remain buried with “unclean” dead bodies! This sounds like some kind of pagan ritual to me.

Can you see Billy Graham’s family doing something like this?

Nell

[MrsFreedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This has got to be the biggest scam ever inflicted upon the LC's. Can you imagine hundreds of brothers from around the country showing up for a funeral service RE-burying WL in a "less evil, less worldly, less religious" plot which he doesn't have to share with anyone from "poor, poor, Christianity?" This just blows my mind. I was in the Recovery when this happened in 2004, and I never knew this.

Does anyone know if Philip or Timothy Lee is buried there at Grace Terrace? If LSM demands a "less evil, less worldly, less religious" burial plot for their beloved idol, then they better not let his decaying carcass any where near his kids.

Philip Lee is indeed buried in Grace Terrace.

You can search the names of anyone buried there through the Grace Terrace website. It's a bit clunky, but it can be done.

Witness Lee is buried at the head of "The Crescent of Glorification" between his two wives. I'm hoping the first wife just has an honorary headstone. Watchman Nee also has what I'm hoping is an honorary headstone close to WL.

Philip Lee is right there with the family. A striking example of the nepotism that is rife in the so-called Lord's recovery.

http://bit.ly/FellowshipConcerningGraceTerrace

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by MrsFreedom

Philip Lee is indeed buried in Grace Terrace.

You can search the names of anyone buried there through the Grace Terrace website. It's a bit clunky, but it can be done.

Oh the hypocrisy!

W. Lee is too good to be buried next to genuine Christians from pitiful Christianity because they are too ""evil, worldly, and religious," yet he is "honored" to be buried with his reprobate, profligate sons?

At the "The Crescent of Glorification" no less!

Money making schemes have a way of white-washing tombstones, eh?

Jesus Himself had a few things to say about this: (Mt 23.27)

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites!

You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of the bones of the dead and everything unclean.

In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness.

[aron]

Video of Ron Kangas referencing Jo Casteel's letter and the internet:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l1MM...F7_EQRroFEw7Kg

[Nell]

Does anyone remember the “message” Ron Kangas gave about “Close Encounters of the Third Kind”?

I heard the audio tape years ago and couldn’t believe it. It was a no-kidding lecture about close encounters with aliens from another planet. Serious as a heart attack. He defined encounters of the first, second and third kinds and sounded pretty much like the movie. No connection to the LC, etc.

No kidding.

Nell

[MrsFreedom]

I'm going to start throwing a few comments over onto this thread from Facebook so they can live on over here on the LCD forum.

FB comment:

Here's what the FTTs are good for: training you to submit to asinine rules and never question so-called deputy authority. The FTTs are literally Witness Lee propaganda schools, not Bible schools. You *think* you are going to study the Bible, but really it's to learn all about Witness Lee and his heretical teachings which you are taught are completely orthodox. Meanwhile you *think* they are orthodox because you never actually learn anything about genuine christian apologetics. Proper exegesis is irrelevant when it's literally all about Witness Lee and his eisegesis.

In fact, you might get through 2 years of this "school" and never hear terms like exegesis and hermeneutics.

And since they can wave the "We Were Wrong!" article around to somehow prove that other christians believe they are so orthodox, you blindly believe you are simply because you are told so.

For the record, I was all in when I went through my 2 years of the FTTA. I sacrificed my Registered Dietitian career to go. It's only when looking back in hindsight now I can see clearly what it was. I felt like the training gave me a "vision" that kept me. I now realize if you hear something enough, anyone can have a "controlling vision."

The FTTs produce the cream of the crop "serving ones" who can go to their localities and be under the thumb of LSM through their local elders. It's literally about producing the best rule followers and the ones who will do LSM's bidding from afar.

The entire goal is to produce saints completely sold on Witness Lee who will continue propagating him and his "ministry." The graduates can then serve on college campuses and unethically recruit new converts in and slowly get them hooked on buying LSM ministry materials and training services.

Millions upon millions are spent every year on paying for the serving ones to recruit college youth in.

The environment is so unhealthy. You aren't allotted enough sleep and the militant style and way it is run produces so many people with anxiety, depression, insomnia, and other mental and physical issues.

Due to its militant nature, one change I think LSM needs to make system-wide for all its trainings is to have psychological evals for all prospective trainees.
Here's a video I put on my main FB post that shows a slice of the FTTT. Note the matching LSM clothes, sleeping in matching clothes, LSM logo on the sheets...
http://bit.ly/ExtremeFTTPractices

[aron]

Originally Posted by Nell

Does anyone remember the “message” Ron Kangas gave about “Close Encounters of the Third Kind”?
I heard the audio tape years ago and couldn’t believe it. It was a no-kidding lecture about close encounters with aliens from another planet. Serious as a heart attack. He defined encounters of the first, second and third kinds and sounded pretty much like the movie. No connection to the LC, etc.

I missed that but heard about it. I wonder what the “amens” were like from the assembly. Kinda like this audio – the audience is rather subdued.

The first rule of the LC is that when Big Brother (or his Chief Blended Cheerleader) is at the dais, war stories and sea stories and speculative tangents are okay. But at the microphone afterward, you get two minutes, and then the piano bangs. And only “Affirmation” is allowed, no “Critique”. And no speculation.

In the LC, the first rule is that there’s one set of expectations for Big Brother and another rule for everyone else. In order to support this, they go back to the OT, because the NT never suggests this. In fact, Paul could stand up to the Peter/James/Jerusalem contingent “to their face” and survive.

Oh, but Paul was the new MOTA, is the LC Party line. Well then John Ingalls was the MOTA when he (scripturally, a la Matt 18) called out Witness Lee for allowing his profligate son to run roughshod over the assemblies.

But wait - it's not like that - Lee (like Paul) was MOTA-for-life, you see. Nobody covered Peter’s errors but “the age changed” with Paul and now suddenly MOTA was untouchable and even when he was wrong, he was right. Nice, huh? Convenient plot twist. And then when Lee died the age changed again (!!) and now nobody gets to be Seer of the Divine Revelation anymore, and the Museum Keepers are the new Untouchables. All of this of course is unsupported by NT scripture. You’d think if rebellions of this nature (speaking up against the MOTA/Deputy God) were “the most serious sins” then Paul would have given us some help instead of forcing us to turn to Korah and Miriam and Ham.

Here’s what I think: I think we’re more liable to judgment if we DON’T speak up. If the self-appointed MOTA says that 17 of the first 20 Psalms are “natural concepts” even if Psalms 2, 8, and 16, are linchpins of NT theology, and nowhere does the NT tell us to pan the remaining text, then we MUST speak up. Don’t you think WL and RK are also accountable for every footnote, every message, if we're accountable for every post, text, tweet and 'like'?

If the MOTA Party Line lauds women as pioneers of recovery, even MOTA-hood (M Guyon, J Penn-Lewis, ME Barber, D Yu, P Wang, E Fishchbacher, R Lee et al) don’t you think someone would note the discrepancy between that and today's “women can’t teach because Paul said so” line? If "women can't teach" then how did Mary McDonough "recover the three parts of man"? I think someone MUST speak up.

And I do apologize for my occasionally harsh tone, and disrespectful slights. But when I used the words “brain-dead” I really meant it. You have to shut your brain off completely to sit there and not be bothered by this. It's just inane.

[aron]

Originally Posted by MrsFreedom

I'm going to start throwing a few comments over onto this thread from Facebook so they can live on over here on the LCD forum.

FB comment:

Here's what the FTTs are good for: training you to submit to asinine rules and never question so-called deputy authority. The FTTs are literally Witness Lee propaganda schools, not Bible schools. You *think* you are going to study the Bible, but really it's to learn all about Witness Lee and his heretical teachings which you are taught are completely orthodox.

Jo, so many people were encouraged that someone spoke up, as your post above. Clearly the FB reaction shows that people were waiting for some kind of venue to call the chains of repression what they were.

The other thing that's so encouraging about your FB letter is the unremitting affirmation of your position. Here's one such affirmation posted today: "The connection to god is a very personal one and I believe no other person, leader or group can tell you how to believe."

That pretty much made my day. I was like, "Ayyyyyeeemmmeeennnn...."

Everyone has their own unique journey. The chief thing is to take responsibility for one's own (thoughts, beliefs, actions, feelings), and to avoid stumbling the person next to you. Because they're on a journey, just as real to them as yours is to you. And Jesus taught this over and over and over again, How you treat the Other Guy (or Gal) is how God is going to deal with you. Everyone got the same command: Own your own journey, and do your best to validate your neighbour on theirs. As much as you can validate (encourage, support) others along the way, so your own goes forward. "Until we all arrive..."

The Good News is pretty simple at its core.

[Raptor]

Originally Posted by Nell

Does anyone remember the “message” Ron Kangas gave about “Close Encounters of the Third Kind”?

I heard the audio tape years ago and couldn’t believe it. It was a no-kidding lecture about close encounters with aliens from another planet. Serious as a heart attack. He defined encounters of the first, second and third kinds and sounded pretty much like the movie. No connection to the LC, etc.

No kidding.

Nell

Please, find this audio, describe it in more detail, was this a church meeting? Training? Where, when? What did he say, why ???????????

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Please, find this audio, describe it in more detail, was this a church meeting? Training? Where, when? What did he say, why ???????????

There is a transcript of it I saw a number of years ago. As I remember it there was nothing damning in it, I think it took the position that aliens were fallen angels trying to deceive mankind not unlike Hal Lindsey and others. I don't know what became of my copy. I think I received a copy of it from an elder in the southeast. Some of the 80 year olds have some stories they should share before they die. Confession is good for the soul. They should realize that when they open their eyes after death they won't be present with WL but with the exhalted Lamb of God to whom the Father has given all authority and power. There is no mention of WL.

[MrsFreedom]

LSM has officially made public a fellowship they gave about my letter to 900 former trainees. Of course they did not include a link to the letter and they told people to not look at it.

Here's what they say:

"During the recent semiannual training in Anaheim there was a special time of fellowship with around 900 former FTTA trainees in response to some recent negative writing online. During this gathering, brothers Minoru Chen, Chris Wilde, James Lee, and Albert Lim shared their testimonies and their heart for the next generation of the Lord’s recovery. Afterwards, a group of graduates of FTTA testified of their encouraging experience in the church life, their appreciation of the Word and the ministry which opens up the Word, and of their one accord with the older generation.

In these days, the Lord is moving to close this age. As the army typified in Numbers is being raised up, the enemy would try and drive a wedge between the generations of the Lord’s recovery. This blended speaking, given in an atmosphere of love and tenderness, was a testimony of the oneness among us and our stand against the enemy’s divisive work. Rather than be distracted by the enemy’s tactics, may we have the heart of those with Nehemiah to “rise up and build, and strengthen our hands for the good work” of the building of God’s house (Neh. 2:18). May the Lord richly bless His recovery through this speaking!

The audio recording of this meeting is now available here. As a point of clarification, the tremors of a distant earthquake were felt during the previous evening’s message and were referenced in some of the brothers’ sharing. Also, we strongly encourage the saints not to search out the referenced online negative writing out of curiosity."

The Facebook page Living to Him can be found here with the audio:
http://bit.ly/LivingtoHimFellowship

How is this not censoring information? How is this not controlling the saints by telling them what they can or can't read?

~J

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Raptor

Please, find this audio, describe it in more detail, was this a church meeting? Training? Where, when? What did he say, why ???????????

My apologies. Please start a new topic for continued discussion. We should respect this one. My bad.

Nell

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by MrsFreedom

The audio recording of this meeting is now available here. As a point of clarification, the tremors of a distant earthquake were felt during the previous evening’s message and were referenced in some of the brothers’ sharing. Also, we strongly encourage the saints not to search out the referenced online negative writing out of curiosity."

The reference to "tremors" was your letter or actual tremors in SoCal?

[Cal]

Originally Posted by MrsFreedom

How is this not censoring information? How is this not controlling the saints by telling them what they can or can't read?

~J

LR success has ALWAYS been based on maintaining a state of ignorance. It cannot survive without it.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

The reference to "tremors" was your letter or actual tremors in SoCal?

I bet that went over real well. Blended Brother at the podium: "The Lord's recovery can never be shaken, because it's built on the ground of oneness, the ground of locality..." (rumble...) (crowd murmurs...)

Here's a post from FB today:

Hi! I don't know you, but the words in your letter speak so much from my own heart. This is my husband's fb, but when I saw the email about the `special fellowship' and the exhortation not to seek it out, I had to find it. I have loose ties to the recovery still, but I've been mostly free for about 3 years. It's still so hard and reading this....wow. so helpful! Thank you!

The worst thing they could do was assemble 900 former FTTA trainees and say, "Please don't read that letter!!" The best thing they could do is instead deal with the contents of the letter.

But God will have His way. Minoru Chen recently said that this (2019) is the Year of Jubilee. The prisoners will be set free, and the blind will get their sight back. Amen, Lord.

The brother said LSM have thousands and millions of God people. Which group of staints he's referring to? Protestant? I highly doubt it LSM has millions of saints worldwide. But one thing I do want to agree with him: the Lord recovery is the Lord recovery. I'm only refering to not only LSM but many other ministries that the Lord used for his economy. LSM problem is that they are too ego to neglect the reality and went on with their sectarianism attitude, when others don't agree with them they say they are divisive and sin against God. Well, it's so hard for me to accept this super tiny group of Christian have a special kind of light, from WL.. if WL is wrong (obviously he's not fully right), countless of innocenct souls are scammed. I'm ok suffer for the Lord but I sense many suffer for one man opinion, a system. LSM is the continuation of the Plymouth Brethren.

This horrified me. I never knew the LC would be this low. After reading the subreddit about the LC and reading about the LC on many posts on this website, I just don't know what to say. This realization completely crushed my faith in the LC

Originally Posted by awareness

It's very hard to leave a cult that you've grown up in.

So kudos to Greg and Joanna for having the courage to walk out. And I hope their testimony encourages others to do so.

"Emancipate yourselves from mental slavery
None but ourselves can free our minds ..."
- Bob Marley - Redemption Song

Yeah. Maybe I can have courage to walk out too. I'm still in the LC as a teen but I'm thinking about leaving it entirely

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered 1

This horrified me. I never knew the LC would be this low. After reading the subreddit about the LC and reading about the LC on many posts on this website, I just don't know what to say. This realization completely crushed my faith in the LC

Originally Posted by Unregistered 2

This horrified me. I never knew the LC would be this low. After reading the subreddit about the LC and reading about the LC on many posts on this website, I just don't know what to say. This realization completely crushed my faith in the LC

Originally Posted by Unregistered 3

it's so hard for me to accept this super tiny group of Christian have a special kind of light, from WL.. if WL is wrong (obviously he's not fully right), countless of innocenct souls are scammed. I'm ok suffer for the Lord but I sense many suffer for one man opinion, a system. LSM is the continuation of the Plymouth Brethren.

A bit of advice: the more you dig on this group, the worse it looks. Financial improprieties, horrible behaviours, cover-ups, poor theology. Witness after witness has come forward, over decades, and tried to warn people, but LC leadership called them "storms" and "turmoils" and "rebellions". The LC successfully hid its history for years because they ran the only printing press in town and could control the (internal) conversation, but that lid seems to be coming off.

Ok, then what?

In my case, I tried other groups to "get the Christian fix" but it just wasn't working for me. Eventually I gave up. Little by little I came back to God, but on different terms.

1. Either God exists or not. That seems to be a personal call. I prefer a universe in which "God" exists simply because it doesn't seem quite so cold and empty. I dunno. But at it's core, it's up to the individual. Not Mom & Dad or Pastor Bob threatening our eternal soul.

2. Jesus Christ. Either he existed or not. If he didn't exist, what about the 12 disciples? Also fiction? What about Paul, who says he knew the apostles who were there before him? Paul also a fictional character? Paul's testimony also a complete fabrication? If you try to dismiss the NT story as a whole-cloth fabrication, the historical weight of evidence seems tough to dismiss. Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus? All fictional characters? I think something was there. It's just too much to appear out of thin air.

3. The core of the message (as I see it) is to love people. Especially those who don't have it in them to give you much love back. You know the ones. Messed-up people. Lots of them around. Not saying you have to be Francis of Assisi or Mother Theresa, but the idea is to be nice to people who at first blush might seem to deserve a whack in the head, or at least your dismissal and avoidance.

And that's about it. Simple, but not easy. Hard to love others all the time. Sometimes I feel grumpy, or whatever. Selfish. "Too bad for you - no love from me..." So it's a journey.

4. Then the "church" thing - the Roman Catholic Church tried it on Luther and the Anglican Church tried it on Wesley - "We have God in our box". Nope. Didn't work then and it doesn't work now. People who pull that crap just show how far from the mark they are. You submit to them & think you're following "Christ only Christ" and suddenly "Christ" morphs into "Drunken Noah"... where did that come from? No, I may go to "church" but I don't let "church" run the show. Only Jesus is the Boss. That's what they called him. Gk Kurios - meant "Lord" and "Master" and such.

"Ekklesia" means meeting, or gathering. Anyone can meet in his name. Nobody has a copyright on the Ekklesia. (except maybe the Holy Spirit and only God controls the HS).

Originally Posted by FTTA graduate

Thank you, Andrea and Jo, for being stronger than I in fearlessly attaching your name to your letters.

1 Cor 1:27b "...God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong." A few "little sisters" stood up to the "Big Bad Brothers". Thanks be to God.

[MrsFreedom]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

The brother said LSM have thousands and millions of God people. Which group of staints he's referring to? Protestant? I highly doubt it LSM has millions of saints worldwide.

Minoru stated that "the Lord's recovery" has millions of saints to make it sound like they have such strength in numbers right now. I do not think that number is accurate. Thousands- yes, millions- no.

LSM has typically disassociated itself with the Shouter cult spinoffs and the Eastern Lightning cult spinoff related to Witness Lee, but Minoru is likely using those numbers in that special fellowship audio.

An interesting article about Eastern Lightning: http://bit.ly/EasternLightningWitnessLee

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by MrsFreedom

Minoru stated that "the Lord's recovery" has millions of saints to make it sound like they have such strength in numbers right now. I do not think that number is accurate.

It is if you consider them as just one part of many other similar ecumenical movements happening around the globe.

[aron]

On Jo Casteel FB page:

“Anything that can be destroyed by the truth deserves to be destroyed by the truth.” Amen.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by MrsFreedom

The FTTs are literally Witness Lee propaganda schools, not Bible schools.

That's precisely why I did not want to go. Ministry is simply not comprehensive. I realized there was much focus on one part of the Bible and neglecting other parts.
I'm more clear now what I was then, but there are certain books in the Bible the ministry just avoided (except if there was a training given on the book).

[aron]

On the Jo Casteel FB page, there's a new poster going by "Chichi Woo", whose output consists of ministry snippets, ministry links, bible verses, and generic spiritual-seeming statements. No actual interaction or critical engagement with what's written by others.

So the question is naturally raised: is this a bot? A computer-generated algorithm? Some kind of spoof? Or a real LSM acolyte peppering social media with ministry bits? Is there any way to tell?

By comparison, years ago I chanced upon a website apparently run by an alt-right fire-breather. It was all about blacks and Jews and heathen and "fallen races" being cast aside. It was very Westboro Baptist Church, if you know what I mean. But it was wayyy over the top, and eventually I realised it was a spoof site run by an atheist antagonist of such positions.

The writer was clearly relishing (too much) the coming suffering of all those who wouldn't submit to their theology, and the language was just too colorful, too graphic. That gave it away. But it was certainly engaging and it made its point.

Now as to Chichi Woo... hard for me to tell a spoof from the real thing, in this case. And that's a rather sad testimony.

[Ohio]

Here's another post by an insider commenting to Jo Casteel ...

no one even said your name, it was not scrubbed. We had another mtg in norcal that was an exact copy of this mtg minus the testimonies and your name was not mentioned. But yes i mean you posted something that has traveled far and saints want to have a place to get answers because many have read it and it appears you wanted many to read it. It is better than them ignoring it and no one talking about it. Many are bothered and praying and fellowshipping. But it wasnt a church wide gospel meeting to talk about you or discount you. I mean honestly it has caused people to question the church. They want to give answers and this was the start of that.

This poster was not aware that Jo Casteel's name was indeed scrubbed.

Probably at the recommendation of the DCP legal arm of LSM.

[MrsFreedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Here's another post by an insider commenting to Jo Casteel ...
This poster was not aware that Jo Casteel's name was indeed scrubbed.

Probably at the recommendation of the DCP legal arm of LSM.

I heard part of the original audio for myself where Simeon Chow's testimony was completely cut out of the public audio. He said "Jo" and he said "Knoxville." He is one of the leading ones in my locality.

They did everything in their power to decry the letter and provide no way for the saints to find out who wrote it or where it could be found.

~J

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by MrsFreedom

I heard part of the original audio for myself where Simeon Chow's testimony was completely cut out of the public audio. He said "Jo" and he said "Knoxville." He is one of the leading ones in my locality.

They did everything in their power to decry the letter and provide no way for the saints to find out who wrote it or where it could be found.

~J

They are scared. They used to have great power over Book Publishers because of their history of lawsuits and could threaten them. With this forum, FaceBook, and the Internet in general, they have lost their ability to control information.

Take a minute and think about what the Catholic Church got away with for centuries because they controlled the Press. Historians had to "reverse engineer" their historical records to find out snippets of what really happened in the dark ages. The Exclusive Brethren also thrived in the information vacuum. They also have quite a litigious history.

Today the internet provides a cumulative effect against LSM. Information suppressed for decades now becomes available with a few keystrokes. Jo Casteel's letter opens the door wide to the abuses of the 40's, 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, 90's, and 00's. LSM can no longer dismiss their systemic sins as "rumors." Their bad teachings and practices have produced rotten fruit for decades.

Put it all together and we have serious concerns. That explains why LSM is so frantic these days.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by MrsFreedom

I heard part of the original audio for myself where Simeon Chow's testimony was completely cut out of the public audio. He said "Jo" and he said "Knoxville." He is one of the leading ones in my locality.

I feel for the brother. I'm sure they got SC in the corner and "talked" to him about why he could not "control" his people.

[Hopeful]

A great wow from Holland... the letter of the sister was brought to my atention.
Thanks! So much courage need for such a letter! tumbs up!
I really hope that this wil become helpful for so many others.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Every LC'er should go back to the story of the Good Samaritan in Luke 10 and read the punchline: "You go and do likewise."

LC teachers loved to expound this story condemning religious people, (Remember their favorite book, Christ vs. Religion?) but they always skipped the punchline. They loved to allegorize the robbers, the oil, and the wine, but left out the actual instructions from the Lord concerning the original question, "what must we do to inherit eternal life?"

Thus LC teachers would endlessly strain allegorical gnats, but pass the plain teachings of the camel.

This is from a month ago, so hope it isn't too stale . . .

So should we talk about Jesus, or should we talk about religion? Two definitions for "religion" are: 1) the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods; 2) a particular system of faith and worship

The first seems pretty benign, but the second definition bothers me a little since it uses the word "system." Systems are man-made, right? From experience, I can get into my own little system of what I think pleases the Lord (religion), and there's very little of Him in that!

[aron]

This morning on the Jo Casteel FB page there was a post by one who defended the LC as "a particular and unique place" to meet with others as a Christian. It's actually part of a veiled threat, which folks like LSM President BP have made blunt: "If you leave us, you will have no way to go on, spiritually."

And it is the same ploy the RCC made in the 17th century with Luther, and the Anglicans 200 years later with Wesley.

But only Jesus is the "unique and particular place" for both God and His chosen people. Jesus is the way. The New Way was an invention of fallen humans, like so many "moves" and "flows". It was only particular and unique in its manner of deviation.

Jesus' claims of exclusivity were validated by resurrection and ascension. LC claims of exclusivity, by contrast, have fostered and covered a long train of abuses.

[kappagamma]

I don't know if this is the same post Aron is referring to but I actually found a response/apology from someone who spoke in the FTT fellowship at the summer semi-annual to be a very positive thing. This individual is my age (or thereabouts) and took it upon themselves to seek out the Casteel post and respond. I can't imagine they were encouraged to do so by any of the higher ups. I know it doesn't address any of the biblical issues that some on this forum are turned off by but it does address the accusations of abuse, etc. Maybe that would be the next layer? If individuals such as these were those in charge maybe there's hope. It seems to be a more rational stance. That being said, I don't see the "Old Guard" stepping down and making room for these more balanced people. If they would maybe things would actually improve? Maybe they could land on a path that isn't whatever they are now. But... maybe that is just wishful thinking by someone who still has family in.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

This is from a month ago, so hope it isn't too stale . . .

So should we talk about Jesus, or should we talk about religion?

Lee constantly used "religion" as his basic foil -- everybody else is religious but him! But can this really be? Was this at all true? Is religion innately evil? Is everything about Lee, LSM, and the LC's inherently free from religion?

Hardly! But back to your question.

We should focus on Jesus, and at times expose hypocrisy. Is not that what Jesus and the apostles did? James said (1.26-27) that religion is caring for the weak, keeping oneself from worldly stains, and not being hypocritical. Jesus never condemned religion, especially the Jewish religion. What he condemned, however, was the hypocrisy of the scribes, priests, and Pharisees.

Kind of like what this forum does.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

This morning on the Jo Casteel FB page there was a post by one who defended the LC as "a particular and unique place" to meet with others as a Christian. It's actually part of a veiled threat, which folks like LSM President BP have made blunt: "If you leave us, you will have no way to go on, spiritually."

Here is the last paragraph of that post, which followed an extremely humble apology by the poster.

Finally, I wanted to say that I do still believe there is merit to the local churches. They are a unique and particular place to pursue the Lord, grow in Christ, and meet with fellow believers on the ground of oneness. I also think the ministry is full of riches to feed the saints and help them in their walk with the Lord. Just as none of us are perfect, none of the churches are perfect either. There will be saints at all different stages of life - some dealing with sin, some who are judgmental, and some who are actually mature and can shepherd us according to God. While there have been catastrophic failures, it seems that to throw everything away on account of a few (albeit deplorable) instances would be to "throw the baby out with the bathwater," as it were. I feel like there is much more to be gained by learning from the past and continuing from where we are than scrapping everything and trying to find an entirely new way to go on.

The difficulty with the ideas here are several. The poster considers the "deplorable" instances to be few in number and from those young in life still "dealing with sin." This is hardly the case. Abuses in the Recovery start at the top, with Lee and his boys. These horrible patterns passed on have wrongly trained generations of saints.

The poster has also wrongly concluded that the leadership has "some who are actually mature and can shepherd us according to God." I could not disagree more. Proof positive are the very actions of these leaders to the Casteel letter -- deny, smear, cover, deceive, dissemble, slander, attack, etc. -- but never take ownership, repent, humble themselves before the Lord, take action, make amends, seek out the truth, etc.

Here is one question I had to deal with when leaving the LC -- are exclusive, elitist, and esoteric LC doctrines the same as the apostles fellowship?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Lee constantly used "religion" as his basic foil -- everybody else is religious but him! But can this really be? Was this at all true? Is religion innately evil? Is everything about Lee, LSM, and the LC's inherently free from religion?

Hardly! But back to your question.

We should focus on Jesus, and at times expose hypocrisy. Is not that what Jesus and the apostles did? James said (1.26-27) that religion is caring for the weak, keeping oneself from worldly stains, and not being hypocritical. Jesus never condemned religion, especially the Jewish religion. What he condemned, however, was the hypocrisy of the scribes, priests, and Pharisees.

Kind of like what this forum does.

Thanks. Personally, I find I can make anything in my Christian walk into a mere system, which by definition is religion. Although, there are certain things He has told me to be faithful in (if you remember the paper I wrote, "Faithful in a Few Things). These few things include getting into the word and seeking Him in the morning and getting with the saints frequently. I'm diligent to just do these - present my body, if you will - regardless of how I feel. So these are a sort of system with me, but they are really just vehicles to turn to Him and be fed in spirit.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Here is one question I had to deal with when leaving the LC -- are exclusive, elitist, and esoteric LC doctrines the same as the apostles fellowship?

That really is the question that is at the heart of this forum.

Is "the ground of oneness" doctrine in the LC exclusive, elitist, and esoteric?

In the NT the ground of oneness is the Lord's blood. Every person on Earth can stand on that blood. That blood is what makes us all one regardless of our sins, culture, background or any other "wedge" issues. There is nothing exclusive about the Lord's blood, nothing elitist, nothing esoteric.

But that is not what the LC use of the term "ground of oneness" means. You have to infer that teaching with smoke and mirrors. You then use it to make your group elite and all others flawed. Finally it becomes brutally exclusive with BP threatening that you cannot go on in your Christian life if you leave their group and RG warning of the dire consequences should you take the Lord's table with any other group of Christians.

By contrast we are told plainly that we who were once far off are made near by the blood of Christ. No need for inferences and smoke and mirrors. We are told plainly in Hebrews that the blood of Christ will purify our conscience from dead works to serve the living God. The blood cleanses us from our flaws. It is the blood that enables us to go on with the Lord. Finally we are told that we conquer the accuser of the brethren by the blood of Christ and the word of our testimony. Not even Satan can exclude us.

So in the final analysis the LC doctrine of the ground of the church is not simply exclusive, elitist and esoteric. It also denies the Lord who redeemed us by His blood.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Thanks. Personally, I find I can make anything in my Christian walk into a mere system, which by definition is religion. Although, there are certain things He has told me to be faithful in (if you remember the paper I wrote, "Faithful in a Few Things). These few things include getting into the word and seeking Him in the morning and getting with the saints frequently. I'm diligent to just do these - present my body, if you will - regardless of how I feel. So these are a sort of system with me, but they are really just vehicles to turn to Him and be fed in spirit.

I would say that the best definition for "religion" is what the Bible calls "good works." Lee regularly and purposely confused these with "dead works." It behooves all of us to know the difference.

Paul told Titus that God's salvation results in a special people "zealous of good works." (read 2.11-15) See also Ephesians 2.10; I Timothy 5.10, 6.18; Titus 2.7; James 2.26; Hebrews 10.24, etc. As I post these verse references I was actually shocked to discover that the Recovery Version (original) had NO cross references for "good works." Amazing!

The phrase "dead works," however, is limited to Hebrews (6.1, 9.14) Paul used this expression to describe O.T. practices which crept into the church, and which were worthless for our salvation. These "dead works" are never about serving, loving, or caring for others. Rather these relate to animal sacrifices, celebrating certain days, dietary regulations, etc. all of which were fulfilled and done away with in Christ.

W. Lee wrongly combined dead works and good works together for his own personal benefit, directing all the saints energies into building up his ministry.

[Raptor]

from Austin Sparks, "Overcomer Testimony", chapter 2. On the word "Remnant" (Overcomer):

2. Freedom from Slavery

There is another word which just means that which has escaped from slavery and is breathing free air. That is a fine picture, a fine portrait for Overcomers - that which has escaped from slavery and is breathing free air. I dare not stay to interpret that. Some of us, even in our Christian lives and histories, know what it is to escape from slavery. Oh, the old bondage of the Christian system and order, expectation and demand, all the old rota and legality! - to be free of it all! Not only to be raised with Christ, but to have the grave-clothes taken off and to be breathing the free air of the spiritually emancipated! That is what this word calls a remnant, and that is not something extra to Christianity. It is exactly what you find at the beginning with the Church. The Lord had cried in the midst of a burdened, tyrannised, religious nation - "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light" (Matt. 11:28-30). What is the old yoke, the old burden, which has harassed and worn these people so that they are weary to death, drawing out His compassionate appeal - "Come unto me, and I will give you rest"? It is the old yoke and burden of legalistic religion, 'thou shalt' and 'thou shalt not': 'you must' and 'you must not' - the whole system built up like that, a great burden. "They bind heavy burdens." He said "and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves will not move them with their finger" (Matt. 23:4). And this word for remnant means such as have escaped slavery and are breathing the free air. You find them in the beginning of the book of the Acts. Overcomers are those who go back to the beginning in experience. They do not take up something further which is deeper teaching, fuller light. It is the primal freshness and fulness of Christ that Overcomers represent - unfortunately, in contrast to the general situation.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Raptor

from Austin Sparks, "Overcomer Testimony", chapter 2. On the word "Remnant" (Overcomer):

2. Freedom from Slavery

There is another word which just means that which has escaped from slavery and is breathing free air. That is a fine picture, a fine portrait for Overcomers - that which has escaped from slavery and is breathing free air. I dare not stay to interpret that. Some of us, even in our Christian lives and histories, know what it is to escape from slavery. Oh, the old bondage of the Christian system and order, expectation and demand, all the old rota and legality! - to be free of it all! Not only to be raised with Christ, but to have the grave-clothes taken off and to be breathing the free air of the spiritually emancipated! That is what this word calls a remnant, and that is not something extra to Christianity. It is exactly what you find at the beginning with the Church. The Lord had cried in the midst of a burdened, tyrannised, religious nation - "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light" (Matt. 11:28-30). What is the old yoke, the old burden, which has harassed and worn these people so that they are weary to death, drawing out His compassionate appeal - "Come unto me, and I will give you rest"? It is the old yoke and burden of legalistic religion, 'thou shalt' and 'thou shalt not': 'you must' and 'you must not' - the whole system built up like that, a great burden. "They bind heavy burdens." He said "and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders, but they themselves will not move them with their finger" (Matt. 23:4). And this word for remnant means such as have escaped slavery and are breathing the free air. You find them in the beginning of the book of the Acts. Overcomers are those who go back to the beginning in experience. They do not take up something further which is deeper teaching, fuller light. It is the primal freshness and fulness of Christ that Overcomers represent - unfortunately, in contrast to the general situation.

I don't agree with the authors assessment of what Christ meant by the use of the terms "yoke" and "bondage". He takes Matthew 23 out of context to support his argument. Christ actually said that we need to listen to the teachers of the law (that is, when they're teaching in line with the truth), just not to be hypocrites like they are.

Christ meant that by coming to him, he'll free us from the bondage and yoke of sin, not necessarily an oppressive religious system.

Just as God imposed harsher rule the more rebellious the Jews were, it's precisely our sin and rebelliousness that outwardly manifests legalist religious systems. And these oppressive systems aren't responsible for keeping people enslaved to sin but in a sense allowed by God as to keep people from complete spiritual anarchy or apostasy.

Making religion the enemy is setting up a strawman for what really is sin and unrepentance. It's taking blame from the individual and projecting it onto others. It doesn't mean that abusive leadership won't be judged for their actions, but it does mean that we need to judge ourselves properly first before judging others.

All corrupted systems started out with the very same mindset; we need to free ourselves from the boogeyman, which is religion, without actually addressing the root issues. In the end these movements end up the same or worse than the systems they were fighting against.

It's a hard truth to accept but the Catholic church, Mormon church, and the Local Churches ect. are a reflection, not only of the leadership, but of their entire congregation as a whole.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jo S

It's a hard truth to accept but the Catholic church, Mormon church, and the Local Churches ect. are a reflection, not only of the leadership, but of their entire congregation as a whole.

Not that I agree with this entirely, but I'm sure it is quite humbling for you to admit that you too are included.

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by aron

This morning on the Jo Casteel FB page there was a post by one who defended the LC as "a particular and unique place" to meet with others as a Christian. It's actually part of a veiled threat, which folks like LSM President BP have made blunt: "If you leave us, you will have no way to go on, spiritually."

You're onto something here, Aron. If you pay attention you'll noticed the bait-and-switch at the end of Mr. Cuthbertson's "apology".

While his apology seemed sincere, it's ultimate purpose was to justify the "church-life" and perhaps inadvertently guilt those whom left.

I don't know if his behavior is conscious, at least I hope it's only a result of programming, but I already see those replying to his post being sympathetic.

It's these times where you have to stand firm in love and not give the Local Church a foothold, for your sakes' and for David's.

Originally Posted by kappagamma

I don't know if this is the same post Aron is referring to but I actually found a response/apology from someone who spoke in the FTT fellowship at the summer semi-annual to be a very positive thing. This individual is my age (or thereabouts) and took it upon themselves to seek out the Casteel post and respond. I can't imagine they were encouraged to do so by any of the higher ups. I know it doesn't address any of the biblical issues that some on this forum are turned off by but it does address the accusations of abuse, etc. Maybe that would be the next layer? If individuals such as these were those in charge maybe there's hope. It seems to be a more rational stance. That being said, I don't see the "Old Guard" stepping down and making room for these more balanced people. If they would maybe things would actually improve? Maybe they could land on a path that isn't whatever they are now. But... maybe that is just wishful thinking by someone who still has family in.

I think I've read the post you referred to.
"If individuals such as these were those in charge maybe there's hope. It seems to be a more rational stance. " Agree.
Also, at the end of reading that post, I smiled. Phew! There's hope that not everyone trained by LSM turns into a Chichi Woo. (Chichi Woo commented on Jo's fb acting like a LSM robot).

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Not that I agree with this entirely, but I'm sure it is quite humbling for you to admit that you too are included.

I see how one can benefit from that kind of double-mindedness.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jo S

It's a hard truth to accept but the Catholic church, Mormon church, and the Local Churches ect. are a reflection, not only of the leadership, but of their entire congregation as a whole.

Originally Posted by Ohio

Not that I agree with this entirely, but I'm sure it is quite humbling for you to admit that you too are included.

Originally Posted by Jo S

I see how one can benefit from that kind of double-mindedness.

How is it double-mindedness when I hold leaders accountable, and view church kids as victims?

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by Ohio

How is it double-mindedness when I hold leaders accountable, and view church kids as victims?

It allows for passive aggressiveness and a shift of accountability. "As a whole" means "in general". Please stop misrepresenting my posts and trying to make me your Drake, Ohio. I'm not that person.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Jo S

It allows for passive aggressiveness and a shift of accountability. "As a whole" means "in general". Please stop misrepresenting my posts and trying to make me your Drake, Ohio. I'm not that person.

Oh no - you've invoked the ghost of Drake! (and I wonder how you even know about him . . .)

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Jo S

It allows for passive aggressiveness and a shift of accountability. "As a whole" means "in general". Please stop misrepresenting my posts and trying to make me your Drake, Ohio. I'm not that person.

Jo S, that's a funny response to a simple challenge. How did I misrepresent your post?

Now that I think about it, ole Drake left the same time you arrived -- last April.

Hmmm ... is it all just a coincidence folks? Inquiring minds need to know. Another LSM troll in hiding?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Oh no - you've invoked the ghost of Drake! (and I wonder how you even know about him . . .)

You caught that too!

He doesn't past the smell test. Sons to Glory! us Ohioans have that deplorable smell in common.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I think I've read the post you referred to.
"If individuals such as these were those in charge maybe there's hope. It seems to be a more rational stance. " Agree.
Also, at the end of reading that post, I smiled. Phew! There's hope that not everyone trained by LSM turns into a Chichi Woo. (Chichi Woo commented on Jo's fb acting like a LSM robot).

The "apology" was for publicly joking about allegations of abuse. But the system that produced the abuses was defended as "a particular and unique place" to gain Christ. No, it is not. It is a particular and unique place to grow and cover over abuse. Just like the RCC was.

So I just see retrenchment, here. A careful repositioning of the message. Like he contacted DCP, said, "Can I apologize" and they said, "Yes, write this".

Originally Posted by Jo S

You're onto something here, Aron. If you pay attention you'll noticed the bait-and-switch at the end of Mr. Cuthbertson's "apology".

While his apology seemed sincere, it's ultimate purpose was to justify the "church-life" and perhaps inadvertently guilt those whom left.

I don't know if his behavior is conscious, at least I hope it's only a result of programming, but I already see those replying to his post being sympathetic.

It's these times where you have to stand firm in love and not give the Local Church a foothold, for your sakes' and for David's.

He still spoke of the "rich ministry" which is a joke on numerous levels. First, Jesus taught never to take the first place but take the least place otherwise risk being sent down. This ministry has done nothing but presume pride of place and how many has it infected? Second, you see the one at the end of the Bible, "I am rich and need nothing" (Rev 3:17). Witness Lee said that he learned nothing from anyone else for the last 45 years of his life. Is that self-proclaimed "I'm rich and need nothing" or what? Lastly, the mess Lee made of scriptural exegesis in the Psalms (among other places), going against clear NT precedent in reception (Psalms were received positively by Jesus and epistle-writers many times) by calling them "fallen human concepts" and "mixed sentiments" in footnotes, how can you call that "rich" or "feeding" people? That's just wrong. That's Amateur Hour Theology.

And the poster said, he's willing to learn. How can you learn if you call every critique of your position a "rebellion" or "attack"? Did he actually read and address the points of the Jo Casteel letter? It looked like a DCP whitewash to me. You know, Good Cop/Bad Cop. Here comes the Good Cop.

I feel like there is much more to be gained by learning from the past and continuing from where we are than scrapping everything and trying to find an entirely new way to go on.

Pure boilerplate. Continuing from where we are? That is what Jo Casteel asked for: treating women with respect. Not jamming theology down children's throats but teaching them to think critically. (AND letting them be children!!!) Admitting mistakes and making restitution. Until someone at LSM and LC churches shows evidence of learning behaviour, it will be empty rhetoric. "Be doers of the Word and not hearers only".

[Jo S]

Originally Posted by aron

Admitting mistakes and making restitution.

It seems to me that leadership and members/ex-members are at a standoff regarding this.

If you expect leadership to pull the trigger first, doesn't that just mean you're at risk of the one being shot?

The point is if you expect and pressure leadership to repent they may do so eventually but only in false humility as to save face and make you look bad.

You can't force repentance. If you try you'll only get an unsatisfactory response at best.

So first, be sure you're in right standing with God. Then, speak your peace with righteous judgment. But also find the strength in Christ to move on and continue to pray for your enemies in faith that God will know best on how to deal with the matter going forward otherwise you risk falling into a cycle of endless bitterness.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Jo S

It seems to me that leadership and members/ex-members are at a standoff regarding this.

If you expect leadership to pull the trigger first, doesn't that just mean you're at risk of the one being shot?

The point is if you expect and pressure leadership to repent they may do so eventually but only in false humility as to save face and make you look bad.

You can't force repentance. If you try you'll only get an unsatisfactory response at best.

So first, be sure you're in right standing with God. Then, speak your peace in righteous judgment. But also find the strength in Christ to move on and continue to pray for your enemies in faith that God will know best on how to deal with the matter going forward otherwise you risk falling into a cycle of endless bitterness.

As a long-time poster on this forum, I admit there's risk. How much does this forum, and FB &c represent real learning, growing, healing, and how much sliding into a different trap, shades of Pilgrim's progress? No quick answer there from me, but I admit it's a good question.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Jo S

It seems to me that leadership and members/ex-members are at a standoff regarding this.

I have seen and believe this to be the case between current leaders and former leaders.
One former leader I had spoken with in the past was open if the current leaders repented and that's the same from current leaders.
One current co-worker told me in 2008/2009 that the former leaders need to......explaining to do in no certain terms. Reading their side of the story was probably not what he had in mind, but that's what I provided.
Yes, current and past leaders are at a standoff with the current leaders believing they are God's deputy authorities.
How do ex-members (non-leaders) fit in? I think they go in in living life. Not asking nor needing repentance from current leaders. If it happened great, but it's not going to be a life-changing event. It's a case of one door closing and another door opening.
Question to ponder is what would happen if they ever crossed paths with a current leader? Would there be a feeling of the leader still having authority over them? Or would it be a feeling of "you have no authority over me"?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

How do ex-members (non-leaders) fit in? I think they go in in living life. Not asking nor needing repentance from current leaders. If it happened great, but it's not going to be a life-changing event. It's a case of one door closing and another door opening.

Question to ponder is what would happen if they ever crossed paths with a current leader? Would there be a feeling of the leader still having authority over them? Or would it be a feeling of "you have no authority over me"?

This happened recently in NYC when ZNP ran into his old friend Ed Marks, now a Blended Brother. ZNP asked Ed why, as elder in Anaheim, he restored Philip Lee to church fellowship, when he never repented. EM said "because it pleased WL."

Moments later the NYC elders ushered ZNP out of their meeting hall.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

This happened recently in NYC when ZNP ran into his old friend Ed Marks, now a Blended Brother. ZNP asked Ed why, as elder in Anaheim, he restored Philip Lee to church fellowship, when he never repented. EM said "because it pleased WL."

Moments later the NYC elders ushered ZNP out of their meeting hall.

I have to ask - Did EM think this was okay, that is, "because it pleased WL" or was it more of an honest confession moment?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I have to ask - Did EM think this was okay, that is, "because it pleased WL" or was it more of an honest confession moment?

It sounded to me like that was the reason he did it, simple. From the conversation I realized he was aware of this forum and what has been said about him.

But it wasn't a repentance. I realized that when he asked to have the envelope the letter came in .

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

It sounded to me like that was the reason he did it, simple. From the conversation I realized he was aware of this forum and what has been said about him.

But it wasn't a repentance. I realized that when he asked to have the envelope the letter came in .

So he thought it was OK, just because WL said it was, right?

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

So he thought it was OK, just because WL said it was, right?

The impression I got was that this was a justification for his action. He was making WL happy.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

The impression I got was that this was a justification for his action. He was making WL happy.

Make the LC Top Dog happy, make Jesus Christ and God the Father happy - pretty much a one-for-one analog in the LC. In fact, I'm hard pressed to come up with any scenario in the LC where this would not be so. As LC member put it, "I am happy to be an ostrich with my head stuck in the sand!" Shortly thereafter he was made an elder to the LC assembly in Anaheim, to replace the one who noticed 'Eli and his sons'...

Anyone who has not read this document should read it. The pattern is clear and consistent. Just do whatever Top Leadership says. Your conscience, the pattern of church history, the Bible do not matter. Obey the Top Leader.

http://makingstraightthewayofthelord...dsRecovery.pdf

[Ohio]

I found this message quite telling ...

A Facebook post from Jo Casteel’s neighbor:

"24 hours ago my neighbors were people we exchanged hellos with, one time borrowed a hair dryer, but strangers to anything personal. Last night Ben rocked their baby boy and I read their little girl bedtime stories while the mom started to make funeral arrangements for her husband who took his life.

I stayed with her overnight because in so many ways for so many reasons they are alone. 7.5 billion people on this earth and the only gospel that has been shared with them is horribly mangled.

I say all this to say, the devil is at work, but I have to believe God is in the details. There is so much hurt this side of heaven, so much confusion, so much evil. Life is real and raw and unexpected. Our job, our mission as believers has to straighten it out with love. His love. And we have to get better at it."

Because of Jo Casteel's professional obligations as a Registered Nurse, she was forced to signal the greater LC community when she learned about numerous abuses. Instead of working to protect the victims, leadership at LSM and DCP quickly moved to destroy this dangerous "whistle-blower." Her own family and LC family also disowned her. Incredible pressure was mounted against this young family.

Her kind neighbor, a lovely Good Samaritan, from "poor poor Christianity" then steps in to help in the midst of such a tragedy.

One ex-LCer told me personally 10 years ago of a revelation the Lord had given him: "There is no love in Laodicea." How true.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Ohio

One ex-LCer told me personally 10 years ago of a revelation the Lord had given him: "There is no love in Laodicea." How true.

Because you say, "I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing," and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, white garments so that you may be clothed and your shameful nakedness not exposed, and salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see.… Rev. 3:17-18

We need the Savior!

Dear sister in Christ,


I just read your letter regarding you and your husband's experience in the LC.

I posted some on the site "Local Church Discussions." I posted as "Hope." My name

is Don Rutledge.

Your story was so very devastating to read.

I feel to write to encourage and confirm. My heart is so broken for what you have suffered.

I left Dallas Texas in 1986. The church there began in my living room with seven saints in 1971.

By 1980 there were 15+ churches in the Texas Oklahoma region with about 1500 saints.

The Lord's Day meeting in Dallas averaged around 400+.

Witness Lee appreciated what the Lord was doing there. But as we became more and more

a movement with headquarters in Anaheim the blessing began to leave.


The establishment of the Irving training center was the death blow to the area. The

brothers and sister could not see why they should drive 45 minutes one way. They were

right!! Brother Lee and Phillip Lee thought that this peace of property 10+ acres was a sign

from God. It was located about a half mile from the very large DFW airport. Of course

there was a reason LSM was able to buy it for what they thought was a great price. The

airport had been built out from the population in the middle of nowhere. The ministry center

there never had more than about 150-200 attend the life study presentations given by

Witness Lee. They only had one big training there. It was a complete bust. So Witness

Lee packed up and left the little group that had moved to Irving to serve the ministry. The

BOONDOGGLE was left to the Texas brothers. The Lord made it so clear to me

you need to move.

In 1989, I quietly left the LC movement. No regrets, just thanksgivings. Your story just

about took my breath. I am so thankful I missed out on the terrible suffering you and your

husband endured. Surely you are in our prayers!!!


In Christ,


Don Rutledge

[aron]

***Duplicate post****

[aron]

Originally Posted by Hope

Dear sister in Christ,

I just read your letter regarding you and your husband's experience in the LC. I posted some on the site "Local Church Discussions." I posted as "Hope...

Your story was so very devastating to read. I feel to write to encourage and confirm. My heart is so broken for what you have suffered. …

In 1989, I quietly left the LC movement. No regrets, just thanksgivings. Your story just about took my breath. I am so thankful I missed out on the terrible suffering you and your husband endured. Surely you are in our prayers!!!

In Christ,

Don Rutledge

One of the protests of the Blended Brothers to the Casteel's FB letter was that it didn't follow the necessary pattern of private fellowship, but went public immediately.

Bill Mallon, John Ingalls and others tried the private fellowship route. I consider Don's testimony probably second only to John Ingalls, in showing what the experience in the Local Churches was initially like, and how it transmuted over time.

The threshold for "tell it to the church" has long since passed, the criteria met. The time to "shout it from the rooftops" has come.

If anyone hasn't read Don's testimony, it's eye-opening, showing what's behind all the hifalutin verbiage of "organic", "processed", "intrinsic" and "consummated". Like the Casteels, this was an insider, who got to see behind the veil, behind the "proper ministry" pretense. This ministry was no more legitimate than a traveling roadshow, calling in the village rubes, to separate them from their pennies. It is a scam. Impressively managed, well-designed, but a scam.

The title phrase refers to the moment when a con artist finishes the "play" and takes the mark's money. If a con is successful, the mark does not realize he has been cheated until the con men are long gone, if at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sting

I did not want to post this update on Jo's Facebook account on her original post. Because I don't know if it's still active with the account and don't want to provoke a bee's nest or open a can of worms. Because even though I believe 100 instantly unfriended her and others flat out blocked her members of the church are still her friends to monitor.

Anyways, the churches are in the midst of the winte training and two years later James Lee has not forgot about Jo. In message 5 he attacked her. He spent time talking about disobedience, deputy authority, self, flesh and rebellion. The message was on Amalek.

James said being possessed by a demon is more serious and severe than witchcraft, etc. He was trying to say the above points will allow or invite a demon to enter a person. And that the demon is so subtle and clever. Said this was in the last rebellion of 2 years ago. Keep in mind I recently red Jo's letter and then listened to the FTTA fellowship regarding it.

James said the demon is so clever and subtle yet vicious and aggressive in how it writes and talks. I immediately knew he was talking about our sister. Yes she is my sister.

Anyways, I felt to share this. I have been in the church my whole life. But over the years things didn't seem right in the training speaking which I didn't agree. I just left it fly during the conferences and the trainings. I'm still in the church because my parents have been in over 40 years and my dad is a leading one in our locality and know among the elders and co workers.
And a huge issue would be made if I left or attempted to leave because the coworkers are pushing that we are in the end times.

One last thing. I recently learned that my mom was sexual assaulted 30 years ago. He was a older brother a leading one. Maybe a elder. He was invited over to our house and was talking to my dad. My mom prepared snacks and went out to bring them in the house. My dad didn't come in the house right away. The guy came behind and grabbed and fondled her breasts. My mom shocked and scared broke loose and ran away scared in side and didn't tell my dad until recently. Later on her best friend back then said she was also sexually assaulted by the same guy. On three occasions he kissed her in the lips. He was doing maintenance work at a brother's business and she was a secretary. He always showed up when she was alone. And afterwards told her that she knows both of them needed it.

I have learned that his son is one of those that have committed sexual assault several times in the past.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

...
1. James said being possessed by a demon is more serious and severe than witchcraft, etc. He was trying to say the above points will allow or invite a demon to enter a person. And that the demon is so subtle and clever. Said this was in the last rebellion of 2 years ago. Keep in mind I recently red Jo's letter band then listened to the ftta fellowship regarding it.

James said the demon is so clever and subtle yet vicious and aggressive in how it writes and talks. I immediately knew he was talking about our sister. Yes she is my sister.


2. One last thing. I recently learned that my mom was sexual assaulted 30 years ago. He was a older brother a leading one. Maybe a elder. He was invited over to our house and was talking to my dad. My mom prepared snacks and went out to bring them in the house. My dad didn't come in the house right away. The guy came behind and grabbed and fondled her breasts. My mom shocked and scared broke loose and ran away scared in side and didn't tell my dad until recently. Later on her best friend back then said she was also sexually assaulted by the same guy. On three occasions he kissed her in the lips. He was doing maintenance work at a brother's business and she was a secretary. He always showed up when she was alone. And afterwards told her that she knows both of them needed it.

I have learned that his son is one of those that have committed sexual assault several times in the past.

From your two comments, we can see that James Lee is correct about demonic affliction.

There is an old saying: "the pot calling the kettle 'black' ". James Lee himself is not exempt from demonic affliction. Where there is sin, demons have legal ground to attack. We have heard many examples of LC Leadership condoning, covering, committing, sexual assault. This is sin. Yet James Lee points fingers at others. JLee is the black pot calling others "black".

The demons surely must be laughing.

Nell

[Zezima]

Why don’t they publicly take any accountably for what she wrote in the letter? Instead they double down, and blame everything else but themselves. It’s really sad.

They care more about their image than they do about caring for the flock.

I want to make it clear that James was not the one who assaulted my mom or her friend another sister in the church. It was the father of a leading one who assaulted sisters. And his son ended up doing the same and being just like him. I wanted to clarify this. Thanks.

My mom is still in the church but her friend has left. Saints say she left because she was influenced and poisoned by a rebellion. I'm not sure if the elders and coworkers should get involved in saints personal lives but her ex was very controlling and drove her to the verge of suicide. But after three times of coming back she left. He met a sister in so called Christianity and divorced within a few years. He finally went to another state and found a sister in the church to marry.

So my question is should the church get involved in personal lives? If so, what can they do if the teaching turn the brothers into this of saying they have the headship and authority over the wife.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

So my question is should the church get involved in personal lives? If so, what can they do if the teaching turn the brothers into this of saying they have the headship and authority over the wife.

It can be rhetorical question, but I will put my two cents.

Very often we come to the same trap of wrong thinking again!

What is CHURCH actually? Group of individuals.
Ecclesia was in Brusselles demonstrating just recently. So who was arrested?
Crowd ( ecclesia) or some individuals with certain names?
The same is with Your question.
Should crowd get involved in personal live? How?
But should individual be involved in? It depends how far You allow him.
Friends-saints knows more than saints which we do not know. This is obvious.
So letting strangers to deal with our private and sensitive problems ( doesn't matter if we call them elders or super holly servants) is riskful.
Trust and love is foundation of local group of believers called usually as church. But trust we build over the years. This construction is also proved in Bible.
If we take off trust ( built on troubles we went through) and love, then we will have only organization. If situation is so, it is better to call social worker.
I should not laughing, I know.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I did not want to post this update on Jo's Facebook account on her original post. Because I don't know if it's still active with the account and don't want to provoke a bee's nest or open a can of worms. Because even though I believe 100 instantly unfriended her and others flat out blocked her members of the church are still her friends to monitor.

Anyways, the churches are in the midst of the winte training and two years later James Lee has not forgot about Jo. In message 5 he attacked her. He spent time talking about disobedience, deputy authority, self, flesh and rebellion. The message was on Amalek.

James said being possessed by a demon is more serious and severe than witchcraft, etc. He was trying to say the above points will allow or invite a demon to enter a person. And that the demon is so subtle and clever. Said this was in the last rebellion of 2 years ago. Keep in mind I recently red Jo's letter band then listened to the ftta fellowship regarding it.

James said the demon is so clever and subtle yet vicious and aggressive in how it writes and talks. I immediately knew he was talking about our sister. Yes she is my sister.

Anyways, I felt to share this. I have been in the church my whole life. But over the years things didn't seem right in the training speaking which I didn't agree. I just left it fly during the conferences and the trainings. I'm still in the church because my parents have been in over 40 years and my dad is a leading one in our locality and know among the elders and co workers.
And a huge issue would be made if I left or attempted to leave because the coworkers are pushing that we are in the end times.

One last thing. I recently learned that my mom was sexual assaulted 30 years ago. He was a older brother a leading one. Maybe a elder. He was invited over to our house and was talking to my dad. My mom prepared snacks and went out to bring them in the house. My dad didn't come in the house right away. The guy came behind and grabbed and fondled her breasts. My mom shocked and scared broke loose and ran away scared in side and didn't tell my dad until recently. Later on her best friend back then said she was also sexually assaulted by the same guy. On three occasions he kissed her in the lips. He was doing maintenance work at a brother's business and she was a secretary. He always showed up when she was alone. And afterwards told her that she knows both of them needed it.

I have learned that his son is one of those that have committed sexual assault several times in the past.

Unregistered,

Please, I beg of you, pay attention to the "things didn't seem right" and "which I didn't agree" parts of you that are raising the red flags. I was a church kid too, and I spent so many years walking around with those red flags not even knowing they were red flags, but instead, thinking I was the problem and that God hated me.

I thoroughly understand the "a huge issue would be made if I left" etc. I know numerous members who are directly and indirectly related to elders, co-workers, big and small, and I can tell you - no matter who you are, you can leave. It is possible. It won't be easy, and there will be slander about you, and relationships will be damaged, but if God is calling you to, you can leave.

Can I ask you - do you think there is an issue before God if you left? In other words, do you know that God is okay with you leaving the local church, and your main issue is with the people's reactions? Or do you think that there is actually a spiritual issue with leaving, and that God would not be happy?

I am so saddened and angry to hear about what happened to your mom 30 years ago. It sounds like she walked alone with that burden for almost three decades. That kind of experience can bring deep shame and guilt to a person who did nothing to deserve the shame and guilt. All the shame, all the blame, all the guilt goes upon the head of the leading brother who perpetrated the assault upon your mom. All of it. And for him to tell her that both of them, including her, "needed it" means he is a calculated predator. After he sexually assaulted her, his speaking to her this way is continued psychological abuse and manipulation.

The other full brunt of the blame goes upon the head of the co-workers and elders who teach "covering the brothers" and "submitting to deputy authority". The local church protects sin and abuses victims. I don't know your situation near well enough to give a specific response (nor am I remotely qualified to), but I hope your mom can receive some kind of Christian counseling or can come to understand the dynamics of sexual and spiritual abuse and that she is not to blame. We have had a few posts by an "unregistered" the past couple days, and I'm not sure if they are the same person. If not, I'll recommend to you the same I recommended on another post.......that you get these two books:

The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse by Johnsen and VanVonderen, and
Healing Spiritual Abuse by Ken Blue

They don't deal so much with sexual abuse, but with the false teachings about how churches like this continue to hurt victims who have already been hurt. If you want information on sexual abuse in the church, Diane Langberg is a wonderful proponent and advocate.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-UC6B6Hhd0

That's a talk of hers on misuse of authority in the church. I cannot recall if she speaks about sexual abuse in that video, but she does have other excellent video talks on YouTube about sexual abuse and the heart of God to those who have been abused. If I can find some, I will post them here.

Please continue to post here if you'd like. We welcome your perspective, thoughts, experiences, and insight.

Trapped

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I want to make it clear that James was not the one who assaulted my mom or her friend another sister in the church. It was the father of a leading one who assaulted sisters. And his son ended up doing the same and being just like him. I wanted to clarify this. Thanks.

My mom is still in the church but her friend has left. Saints say she left because she was influenced and poisoned by a rebellion. I'm not sure if the elders and coworkers should get involved in saints personal lives but her ex was very controlling and drove her to the verge of suicide. But after three times of coming back she left. He met a sister in so called Christianity and divorced within a few years. He finally went to another state and found a sister in the church to marry.

So my question is should the church get involved in personal lives? If so, what can they do if the teaching turn the brothers into this of saying they have the headship and authority over the wife.

Thanks for the clarification and for making sure you are not pointing fingers by implication. Sadly I can think of another father/son duo in the church who are sexual predators, that based on your description are not the ones you are talking about. I'm devastated there are more than one.

I can only say a little bit here, but the local church is, again, like many other abusive churches. In the marriage relationship, they think this is all that is said about the marriage dynamic:

Ephesians 5:22-24
22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior.
24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

But they repeatedly forget the next part of the chapter, which is:

Ephesians 5:25-33
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her
26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word,
27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless.
28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself.
29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church—
30 for we are members of his body.
31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”
32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church.
33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

Obviously each marriage situation is different, but from what I have seen about how the elders handle them, the problem is usually not that the wife will not submit, but that the husband will not sacrifice himself for her. A submissive wife is submitting to a sacrificial husband....to a husband that loves her as he loves himself. But when the husband does not do that and instead lords it over her, claims his domineering authority, is abusive, the Bible does not say we are to submit to abuse. The wife's submission is part of the whole, and the other part of that whole includes a husband who gives himself up for her. The elders hardly ever admonish the husband, but usually always blame the wife. And more abuse is allowed to stand. Sin is protected again and the victim is blamed.

Thank you for bringing all this up again to remind us to continue to pray and take action in whatever way we can.

Trapped

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

From your two comments, we can see that James Lee is correct about demonic affliction.

There is an old saying: "the pot calling the kettle 'black' ". James Lee himself is not exempt from demonic affliction. Where there is sin, demons have legal ground to attack. We have heard many examples of LC Leadership condoning, covering, committing, sexual assault. This is sin. Yet James Lee points fingers at others. JLee is the black pot calling others "black".

The demons surely must be laughing.

Nell

I grew up being taught that we should not lie. Lying was a sin and violated one of the Ten Commandments.

Actually the 9th Commandment is different from lying. The actual command is “Thou shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.” Lying is terrible, but bearing false witness is pure evil. Most lies simply protect oneself from responsibility. We lie to wrongly deflect accountability. Adam lied after disobeying God in the garden.

Bearing false witness, however, condemns an innocent person. Innocent people have been executed and imprisoned for life because of false witnesses. In this regard, bearing false witness is as evil as murder.

This is what LSM leaders do to those who expose their corruption. They called John Ingalls and others “leprous rebels.” They now say the widowed sister Jo Casteel is demon possessed. Horrible!

These “whistleblowers” are not strangers to LSM. They were very close “neighbors.” They served at LSM. Today’s training speakers at LSM are not only pathological liars, but worse, they all bear false witness against their own neighbors. They lie, they libel, they slander, they bear false witness, they deceive all the trainees. Why? They hate the light, because their deeds are evil. (John 3.19)

May God have mercy on these people.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Zezima

Why don’t they publicly take any accountability for what she wrote in the letter? Instead they double down, and blame everything else but themselves. It’s really sad.

They care more about their image than they do about caring for the flock.

Exactly, Zezima!

All notable Recovery leaders use shaming, the military practice of "dress downs." Supposedly this was "recovered" by a sister in China named Barber. As the story goes, she taught Nee, who taught Lee, who taught all of the current leaders.

They use indiscriminate shaming and public rebukes, lambastes, on a regular basis, mainly in the brothers' meetings, but also in trainings, in order to maintain their clearly delineated lines of authority. Remember -- "it" only rolls down hill, as the saying goes. One can only shame those beneath him, never above, instead all those above must be "covered." Understand how that works?

Their system is not biblical. It's fake spirituality. It's the hallmark of abusive leadership. It creates a clearly defined hierarchy. Nee said clearly, "when you walk into a room, you should immediately look to see who you should submit to." The implications were immediate -- all must submit to him. Same with Lee. Same with Kangas.

The Bible, however, never authorizes this practice of public censure. This is to lord it over the church of God. (I Peter 5.3) The Bible does tell us to rebuke those who sin, especially the leaders who sin. (I Timothy 5.19-21) This should be done without prejudice or partiality, like was done with Lee's own reprobate sons, Philip and Timothy.

We often discuss the dangers of the Recovery practice of "deputy authority" on this forum, and we should, because so many have been hurt by it. One of the "weapons" used to enforce this twisted authority is public shaming from the bully pulpit. Shaming instills fear in all the members. But Biblical fear should be directed towards sin and towards God, and not some supposed human authority figure, such as the MOTA.

Consider how this inorganic system opens wide the doors of corruption in the Recovery. The leaders are never accountable. Their sins must be "covered." Anyone who speaks their conscience is soundly smeared and quarantined before all. The members then learn nothing spiritually profitable, rather all manners of abuse and sin get repeated. And false shaming maintains the hierarchical system, hermetically sealed from the Light of Day, from prophets sent by God to rescue them.

I had previously a few months ago looked into the accounts people who have left the church. Mainly, because of the recovery wide message of the end times and how the coworkers are speaking. And how many saints have been acting because Trump lost the election and the 50/50 slit of differing views on the pandemic. Basically paranoid, selfish or no sympathy and empathy. Some call it plandemic. And many saints have actually died. Some localities have had major infections. And after near death experiences they're still anti vaccine and masks. When meeting on zoom they refuse to assemble because they think saints are cowards. But will meet in person with no masks. Other churches require masks in door. You have your right to opinions and choice. But I'm letting this community what is going on and the latest.

I do need to add when saints got sick other saints thought they were doctors and recommended right wing recommended treatments. One brother had such a bad reaction he felt like dying. Other saints in the beginning deny they had covid and that it was a flu.

But what got me to post was James Lee saying our sister was possessed by a demon which he said is worse than witchcraft. How the demon is so clever and unique in how it speaks and writes. He said the last rebellion which was exactly two years ago his exact words. This I had to share with everyone.

[gr8ful]

I'm saddened but not surprised to hear that James Lee, or any other Blended Brother, would accuse a sister in the Lord of being demon possessed. Considering that the Lord's Recovery has been waning in past years without any sign of reviving, the anxiety of the leadership must be at an all-time high. Thus, grasping at whatever they can to stem the attrition (if not exodus), flailing against imagined monsters is an expected Quixotic response.

With the advent of the ubiquitously-accessible Internet, authoritarians of all kinds are losing their ability to control the information flow to their subjects. While governments like China can set up nation-enveloping firewalls to reduce unwanted criticism, religious groups like the JWs and the Lord's Recovery must rely on policing their people through fear and threats. "Covering the brothers," a policy just like the Catholic church's policy towards sexual predators in the priesthood, won't last long in the modern era. Nor will claims of unique possession of God's up-to-date speaking survive a quick study of other (non-recommended) sources.

While the shameful accusations and blaming of innocents continues, the reality is the audience of the leaders of the Lord's Recovery is shrinking, the influence is waning. As with other isolated and isolating groups, as the input of new voices evaporates, the message concentrates -- becoming more intense in every sense -- and the reaction against any questioning or challenge of veracity will result in a stronger, more vile attacking response.

More dire "crucial words" against dissent, more feverous cries of the rapidly approaching End Times, more wild claims of the specialness of the "remnant" that remain faithful -- this is what awaits those beholden to The Lord's Recovery as it follows the path of the James Taylorites (Plymouth Brethren).

[Robert]

I saw brother Ron in clip from Dec. He was alone in room, talking to camera ( he was talking about it in first minute).

I just wondered, if he really cares what others say about him from out side of LR?
I remember one message, when one of blended, said, that elder are in bigger danger of proud, ambition and arrogance.
I think most of them are.

I think, we should remember about them in our prayers.
Actually I have to remember. I feel that encouragement in spirit.
We have to rebuke and condemn terrible and unjust behavior.
But if in Heavenly Kingdom rule is to pray for enemies, how much more we should pray for brothers and sisters who became victim of enemy.
If I will be deceived, I wish to have someone who will pray for me.
So, I really encourage all saints to pray and pay attention to keep balance in hearts and have good and right judgment but love to others as well.
Our Lord Jesus is Righteous but also Love.

It will be huge blessing and change if we see Ron repenting and saying "I am sorry I was wrong".
But I am not judge, and even I will not see this in my live, Lord knows his heart.
-
Mat 3:12
Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

[Robert]

Just within one hour Lord gave me my Brother as another board in Temple to witness.
This lovely brother mentioned the same thing...
He is speaking out thought I had and have...

[HERn]

Originally Posted by gr8ful

I'm saddened but not surprised to hear that James Lee, or any other Blended Brother, would accuse a sister in the Lord of being demon possessed. Considering that the Lord's Recovery has been waning in past years without any sign of reviving, the anxiety of the leadership must be at an all-time high. Thus, grasping at whatever they can to stem the attrition (if not exodus), flailing against imagined monsters is an expected quixotic response.

Just wondering what kind of anecdotal data were used to conclude that attendance at LSM associated events has declined. What kind of things can we look for to estimate a decline in attendance? I’m sure LSM keeps meticulous data on this, but does not release it.

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by gr8ful

I'm saddened but not surprised to hear that James Lee, or any other Blended Brother, would accuse a sister in the Lord of being demon possessed. Considering that the Lord's Recovery has been waning in past years without any sign of reviving, the anxiety of the leadership must be at an all-time high. Thus, grasping at whatever they can to stem the attrition (if not exodus), flailing against imagined monsters is an expected Quixotic response.

With the advent of the ubiquitously-accessible Internet, authoritarians of all kinds are losing their ability to control the information flow to their subjects. While governments like China can set up nation-enveloping firewalls to reduce unwanted criticism, religious groups like the JWs and the Lord's Recovery must rely on policing their people through fear and threats. "Covering the brothers," a policy just like the Catholic church's policy towards sexual predators in the priesthood, won't last long in the modern era. Nor will claims of unique possession of God's up-to-date speaking survive a quick study of other (non-recommended) sources.

While the shameful accusations and blaming of innocents continues, the reality is the audience of the leaders of the Lord's Recovery is shrinking, the influence is waning. As with other isolated and isolating groups, as the input of new voices evaporates, the message concentrates -- becoming more intense in every sense -- and the reaction against any questioning or challenge of veracity will result in a stronger, more vile attacking response.

More dire "crucial words" against dissent, more feverous cries of the rapidly approaching End Times, more wild claims of the specialness of the "remnant" that remain faithful -- this is what awaits those beholden to The Lord's Recovery as it follows the path of the James Taylorites (Plymouth Brethren).

Hi Gr8ful,

I wanted to just say that these people will never stop doing what they are doing, or stop saying what they say! There is no compass of any kind that regulates and guides them, beside power, authority, and self-righteousness. They get a high from that, that’s their only satisfaction. Even if there will be two people left in their meetings, they will totally drain everything out of them, to uplift themselves and lower others to the depths of hell.

I finally got around to read the book Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse, that I read in about 6 hrs, and even though I can’t agree with everything in this book, I can say that I knew of all these things, since I have experienced them, but just couldn’t put the correct names to it. I have been around men of this ilk my whole life, and as someone who has experienced every kind of abuse in my life described in this book, the spiritual one is the hardest by far to detect, understand, and be able discern. The people that are trapped there, cannot and unable to recognize and flee from it. When the name of God and Christ is used to perpetrate abuse, it’s totally blinds and subverts peoples psyche to completely destroy them, first spiritually, psychologically, emotionally, and finally physically. I pray that God intervenes on behalf of the true born again believers that are trapped there, and gives them a chase to experience the freedom in Him, and in His Grace!

As hard as I know it is to have anyone in there to read any spiritual writings that are not approved by the high priests of this system, I would strongly recommend that if there is even a small chance that one would consider to go outside of the bubble and read something, please read this book, and pray that God would show you something through it.

Thanks.
God bless!

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

Hi Gr8ful,

As hard as I know it is to have anyone in there to read any spiritual writings that are not approved by the high priests of this system, I would strongly recommend that if there is even a small chance that one would consider to go outside of the bubble and read something, please read this book, and pray that God would show you something through it.

Thanks.
God bless!

Paul, both authors of that book were interviewed by a former cult member and it's still on YouTube.

The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse Part 1
https://youtu.be/DGL_Wl7BAfE

The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse Part 2
https://youtu.be/MelXy5Gj7Jc

PS

[PriestlyScribe]

[QUOTE=Ohio;87767]ZNP asked Ed why, as elder in Anaheim, he restored Philip Lee to church fellowship, when he never repented. EM said "because it pleased WL."/QUOTE]

So sad to learn about brother Ed Marks' "idolatrous" response to ZNP. Of all the so-called Blendeds, Ed always had seemed (to me anyway) to be the least deluded of the inner circle. But I was wrong.

Ed's signature is clearly visible on this 1996 letter of apology to Philip Lee.

P.S.

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by aron

.....Lee (like Paul) was MOTA-for-life, you see. Nobody covered Peter’s errors but “the age changed” with Paul and now suddenly MOTA was untouchable and even when he was wrong, he was right. Nice, huh? Convenient plot twist. And then when Lee died the age changed again (!!) and now nobody gets to be Seer of the Divine Revelation anymore, and the Museum Keepers are the new Untouchables......You have to shut your brain off completely to sit there and not be bothered by this. It's just insane.

Here is a link to a ten megabyte video (mp4 download) of Ron Kangas spewing out this MOTA nonsense in South America.


Shockingly, Ron also posits that if the Lord were to delay His coming, "The Order Of Museum Keepers" may need to man their battle stations for up to 200 years?
If you desire more context for this crazy talk, the full mp3 audio recording is located inside the same folder and shares the same filename.

NOTE: For anyone curious as to how such a bizarre concept as MOTA could possibly arise, this article by F.B. Hole may be helpful.

Enjoy!

P.S.

[PriestlyScribe]

Originally Posted by MrsFreedom

Philip Lee is indeed buried in Grace Terrace.

You can search the names of anyone buried there through the Grace Terrace website. It's a bit clunky, but it can be done.

Witness Lee is buried at the head of "The Crescent of Glorification" between his two wives. I'm hoping the first wife just has an honorary headstone. Watchman Nee also has what I'm hoping is an honorary headstone close to WL.

Philip Lee is right there with the family. A striking example of the nepotism that is rife in the so-called Lord's recovery.

http://bit.ly/FellowshipConcerningGraceTerrace

I attended the WL re-burial service at Grace Terrace and subsequently created a simple website for that event. This was prior to sister Lee & Philip Lee's passing.

Video recordings of the all-day 1997 WL Memorial Meeting can be viewed here:
Stadium Meeting Part 1
Stadium Meeting Part 2
Graveside Forrest Lawn Cypress, CA

P.S.

[Nell]

Sorry folks. Comments here have gone off track. Let's please get back on topic. Create another topic if you wish to continue, or there may be an existing topic appropriate for your comments. We will likely be moving some of these posts...including mine...to a more appropriate place.

Thanks to all---
Nell

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Anyways, the churches are in the midst of the winte training and two years later James Lee has not forgot about Jo. In message 5 he attacked her. He spent time talking about disobedience, deputy authority, self, flesh and rebellion. The message was on Amalek.

Anyways, I felt to share this. I have been in the church my whole life. But over the years things didn't seem right in the training speaking which I didn't agree. I just left it fly during the conferences and the trainings. I'm still in the church because my parents have been in over 40 years and my dad is a leading one in our locality and know among the elders and co workers.
And a huge issue would be made if I left or attempted to leave because the coworkers are pushing that we are in the end times.

Let me prophesy on this.
1. Disobedience is relative. Disobedience to whom? If Jo Casteel's speaking was under the headship of God, I don't consider Jo disobedient. Rather the brothers considered Jo disobedient to them.
2. Deputy Authority, that is a teaching of men trying to usurp God's headship. Did you ever read the prophets submitting to the kings as their deputy authority? It is no coincidence why my youngest son was named Nathan.
3. Rebellion, who is rebelling against who? The American Revolution ended in the 18th century. As I've said before if our sister Jo is under God's headship, she's not rebelling against God.
4. Trainings, LSM is just like those 6 companies that own 90% of the media. They seek to control the sound bites, talking points, and prevent as Paul Harvey used to say "the other side of the story" from being told.
No other venue is ripe with opportunity to get the talking points in front than the bi-annual trainings. It didn't start with Jo. We saw it as a precursor to the Great Lakes turmoil, the late 1980's turmoil, and so on.

[ACuriousFellow]

Ironically, I read about Jo Casteel's letter after I left The Lord's Recovery. The same stands for all the history of the Local Churches. I saw enough for myself without the "poison" of "negative speakers." My heart was deeply troubled and moved to see how widespread, both geographically and chronologically, the troubles of The Lord's Recovery were. It saddened me more deeply still to see how they demonized their sister's cry for help and portrayed it rather as an attack from Satan. It shook me to my core to see how callous the so-called "leading ones" were and how over 900 graduates of the Full-Time Training were giving their amens to all of it. This is suppose to be the next generation of leaders in The Lord's Recovery? My heart is heavy thinking about it. I wonder how many of them left that "Special Fellowship" with a truly clean conscience. How many of them are wondering now, and if they are wondering, how many of them will seriously consider the issue and act on it? My hopes are high, but my expectations are low.

[GraceAlone]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

Ironically, I read about Jo Casteel's letter after I left The Lord's Recovery. The same stands for all the history of the Local Churches. I saw enough for myself without the "poison" of "negative speakers." My heart was deeply troubled and moved to see how widespread, both geographically and chronologically, the troubles of The Lord's Recovery were. It saddened me more deeply still to see how they demonized their sister's cry for help and portrayed it rather as an attack from Satan. It shook me to my core to see how callous the so-called "leading ones" were and how over 900 graduates of the Full-Time Training were giving their amens to all of it. This is suppose to be the next generation of leaders in The Lord's Recovery? My heart is heavy thinking about it. I wonder how many of them left that "Special Fellowship" with a truly clean conscience. How many of them are wondering now, and if they are wondering, how many of them will seriously consider the issue and act on it? My hopes are high, but my expectations are low.

ACuriousFellow (welcome, by the way!), I’ve had similar thoughts. When I read the ShepherdingWords website that came out in the wake of the Casteels’ letter, it had the opposite effect on me as what it was intended to do. I was still in the LC, but somehow I felt like a more apt title for the site would have been “Gaslighting Words.” And the tone and format (no bylines, no room for reader responses) lacked Christian humility or any acknowledgement of even the possibility of having caused harm. Once I later found out about the way the Casteels had been spoken about both publicly in that Special Fellowship and in private conversation, I was well and truly horrified.

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by GraceAlone

ACuriousFellow (welcome, by the way!), I’ve had similar thoughts. When I read the ShepherdingWords website that came out in the wake of the Casteels’ letter, it had the opposite effect on me as what it was intended to do. I was still in the LC, but somehow I felt like a more apt title for the site would have been “Gaslighting Words.” And the tone and format (no bylines, no room for reader responses) lacked Christian humility or any acknowledgement of even the possibility of having caused harm. Once I later found out about the way the Casteels had been spoken about both publicly in that Special Fellowship and in private conversation, I was well and truly horrified.

Hello there, GraceAlone

From what I've seen in Jo and Greg Casteel's posts and on a few other forums, there was a comments section on a post made by The Lord's Recovery where some people voiced their concerns, but the comments were quickly removed.

[ACuriousFellow]

Anyone ever wonder what would happen if Jo Casteel's letter was mysteriously disseminated on all the college campuses that TLR operates in?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

Anyone ever wonder what would happen if Jo Casteel's letter was mysteriously disseminated on all the college campuses that TLR operates in?

That exposing letter and DCP’s retaliation became so toxic that her husband took his life. So sad. So tragic. How many lives have been destroyed to perpetuate LSM’s deceitful lies!

Originally Posted by Ohio

That exposing letter and DCP’s retaliation became so toxic that her husband took his life. So sad. So tragic. How many lives have been destroyed to perpetuate LSM’s deceitful lies!

Hi Ohio,
If someone does not like to fellowship and worship in the Lord's recovery, then they are free to leave. Some believers would rather meet in another place where they are more comfortable. To take your own life is ones own responsibility, not a specific group of believers. It is ridiculous to blame anyone other than a mentally confused person. It is sad when a person is so depressed that they take their life, but no one encourages such an action. Obviously a weak, depressed, confused person needs some help and perhaps should seek it professionally. May the Lord have mercy on all the weaker vessels.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hi Ohio,
If someone does not like to fellowship and worship in the Lord's recovery, then they are free to leave. Some believers would rather meet in another place where they are more comfortable. To take your own life is ones own responsibility, not a specific group of believers. It is ridiculous to blame anyone other than a mentally confused person. It is sad when a person is so depressed that they take their life, but no one encourages such an action. Obviously a weak, depressed, confused person needs some help and perhaps should seek it professionally. May the Lord have mercy on all the weaker vessels.

Unregistered,

Welcome. Are you willing to stick around to dialog and actually contend with and answer for what you have written here?

Trapped

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hi Ohio,
If someone does not like to fellowship and worship in the Lord's recovery, then they are free to leave. Some believers would rather meet in another place where they are more comfortable. To take your own life is ones own responsibility, not a specific group of believers. It is ridiculous to blame anyone other than a mentally confused person. It is sad when a person is so depressed that they take their life, but no one encourages such an action. Obviously a weak, depressed, confused person needs some help and perhaps should seek it professionally. May the Lord have mercy on all the weaker vessels.

You missed (perhaps unintentional?) the reason behind the sister’s letter. Her medical profession DEMANDED that she report abuse. She had no choice. It was demanded by both God (in her conscience) and man (by her medical oaths.). Her husband did his best to support her.

None of us had access to the enormous pressures that weighed on him. We don’t know what private phone calls or correspondence added stress beyond his ability to bear. Where were all the brothers he loved? Since when does brotherly love get tossed in the trash when someone speaks for the Lord in truth?

Many of the Prophets also despaired of life. What the Lord moved in them to share was far more than they could bear. One day all those who protect abusers and sinners will be exposed. “Blessed are those who suffer for righteousness sake.”

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hi Ohio,
If someone does not like to fellowship and worship in the Lord's recovery, then they are free to leave. Some believers would rather meet in another place where they are more comfortable. To take your own life is ones own responsibility, not a specific group of believers. It is ridiculous to blame anyone other than a mentally confused person. It is sad when a person is so depressed that they take their life, but no one encourages such an action. Obviously a weak, depressed, confused person needs some help and perhaps should seek it professionally. May the Lord have mercy on all the weaker vessels.

This is the most infuriating and disgusting kind of post that one can read, especially coming from this church of witness lee. This kind of treatment of people, and total blind way of always blaming someone, rather than looking at the garbage that you all giving people, teaching people, claiming to be truth, is what flies in the face of every one that ever happened to wanted to leave your sect.

Local church is a place if you even consider leaving, you better count the costs. Just know that your decision will cost you everything and everyone you knew for decades, including your family, and in many cases own children/spouses and friends. They destroy your life first, then when you lose your mental ability to continue, they will claim that you are week/confused/depressed/weak vessel. What a fools, and disgraceful ones at that. They will even throw in demon possessed to feel better about themselves! Make my blood boil!

The amount of blood local church has on its hands is plenty enough to be silent and ashamed, but NO, they are out there claiming to be God-men! ��

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

[Joanna Casteel's] medical profession DEMANDED that she report abuse. She had no choice. It was demanded by both God (in her conscience) and man (by her medical oaths.). Her husband did his best to support her.

(Disclosure: I'm going to use the royal "we", which may or may not relate to others. And my post is rather long and involved).

A theme touched in this letter was the notion that we only make decisions based on what we already know. We can't make choices in an ether, or reach into a vacuum and make something. We can only use the ingredients we're given to create new things. We receive something, we use it, we build something new. Lacking information, we can neither objectively consider our current situation, nor evaluate options going forward.

Joanna Casteel had been raised in the local churches and was fed a constant stream of one-sided information designed to make her a thoughtless and reflexive consumer and promoter of ministry propaganda. She was repeatedly told that only Watchman Nee and Witness Lee had anything worthwhile to say, and even her own thoughts had to be checked against ministry teachings. She was denied the fundamental tools of self-governance.

But onto that monolithic structure, she got exposed to the concept of ethics at University. She saw that it's unethical to ask people to make decisions while deliberately withholding relevant information. She recognized the deceptive recruiting practices of the Living Stream Ministry operatives for what they were. Their dependent relation on Witness Lee is initially hidden: "We're just Christians; we just love Jesus and are open to all Christians", is the opening gambit, until relationships are set. Then, bit by bit, the LSM gets introduced, and other sources of information are systematically discouraged, and submerged.

That recognition of deceptive practices was the slenderest of threads... Jo had been mentally conditioned, including years of immersive "training" at the FTTA, not to trust her own discernment, yet as a professional she was required to exercise discernment. So, something had to change. And that requirement to observe, to note, to discern, and to report, ultimately forced the Casteel family to exit the local church.

Originally Posted by Casteel letter

I mainly read Nee and Lee as Christian authors my entire life. From time to time I would take a peek at other authors, but considered their teachings too low and part of degraded Christianity. Besides, Brother Lee had done all the work for us and I just needed to get into the riches. Also, I didn’t trust myself to be able to discern what others interpreted about God, so the safest way was to just read Nee and Lee. Some authors like Darby were approved by our group, but I never had time for anyone else as I was on multiple reading schedules of Nee and Lee. I also never considered I had a need for anyone else as I already had the best of the best. Brother Lee had received incredible light and revelation from the Lord and had seen the top vision of God’s economy and the High Peak of the Divine Revelation.

Local church members are told not to trust their own ability to discern. Outside information is quickly explained away, or dismissed outright as not from the ministry and therefore irrelevant. My point here has been that the more information we get, and when we exercise our ability to discern what's valid, the more we can find our way, both individually and together, and create mutually satisfying new environments. So, I've been asking for Chinese-language primary source documents and secondary sources to be translated. In the English-speaking world, we gave ourselves over to something that we knew almost nothing about, and that's still largely unknown.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

If someone does not like to fellowship and worship in the Lord's recovery, then they are free to leave.

This breezy "free to leave" comment is contradicted by the testimonies of those who were there. All their lives, they're told about what happened to those who exercised that right to inform oneself, to think, to discern, to choose, and to talk about it. Mistakes and all.

Originally Posted by Casteel letter

From the time I was very young I knew the horrific things that would happen to me if I deviated from this way. As a young person I was told that we would become like Belshazzar in Daniel 4:33 if we went against this way. Belshazzar ate grass like an oxen, grew nails like bird claws, and lost his mind. I knew if you left this way you would come to nothing, become a man of death, and as I read recently in a ministry magazine that I “will even become death” (“The Ministry of the Word,” “The Overcomers,” Living Stream Ministry, Anaheim, CA, 2012, p. 69).

I was terribly afraid of becoming leprous, an ugly and horrific disease. I learned about deputy authority from the time I was a child and that going against anyone in a position of authority was going against the acting God on earth regardless of if they were right or wrong. As an adult, when I had questions about some of our practices, I would whisper about it with my husband behind closed doors while worrying that the ground was going to figuratively open up and swallow me up like those of the rebellion of Korah (Numbers 16). I spent my entire lifetime eaten up with crippling anxiety and severe depression over the questions and feelings I had inwardly.

I'd encourage everyone who's contacted by this group, to get as much information as you can about them, before making commitments based on their pressure. And, I'd encourage everyone who's exited the local church, whether a former church kid, or recruited off campus, to get as much information as possible about what we experienced. Otherwise we'll have trouble processing it, and will end up reflexively pushing it away, but it remains a subconscious force. Only when we bring our experiences to light can we move on. Greg and Joanna Casteel had the moral courage to face the once-forbidden unknown and to exercise their innate capacity to think about the formerly unthinkable. It takes a lot. And it costs a lot.

One of the stalwarts of the current LSM regime is seen urging young people (at the 30 minute mark, here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_ww7m_5BTs )to access a wide variety of reading sources, and to make the effort and trust their capacity to figure things out for themselves. Information gives us choices, that we didn't realize were there.

Here's another one: https://www.hsph.harvard.edu/news/fe...-remarks-chan/

Originally Posted by Gerald Chan

My first advice to you, graduates, is to enrich your lives with ideas, even big ideas. Read, reflect, and ruminate (the new three Rs). Observe and deduce, postulate and verify, look for connections. Be curious, be open-minded, reframe problems rather than just looking for answers, have the courage to differ from conventional wisdom, do not dismiss your intuition. Discuss, debate and discourse with others. Look into history, watch current affairs; study the sacred texts, observe humanity. These are the mental habits conducive to the spontaneous generation of ideas. A life is rich when it is rich with ideas.

How can someone say this openly and publicly on the one hand, and then go back to their own religious group and tell them not to read from a variety of sources, and not to think about what they read, and not to publicly express their thoughts? "Discuss and debate..." when was that ever allowed in a local church? Yet even the NT record shows this freedom to think and speak. Acts 15:7 After much discussion, Peter got up and addressed them: “Brothers, you know that some time ago God made a choice among you that the Gentiles might hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe..."

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hi Ohio,
If someone does not like to fellowship and worship in the Lord's recovery, then they are free to leave. Some believers would rather meet in another place where they are more comfortable. To take your own life is ones own responsibility, not a specific group of believers. It is ridiculous to blame anyone other than a mentally confused person. It is sad when a person is so depressed that they take their life, but no one encourages such an action. Obviously a weak, depressed, confused person needs some help and perhaps should seek it professionally. May the Lord have mercy on all the weaker vessels.

Thanks, Ohio, for bringing some sanity to this discussion.

IN THEIR OWN WORDS!

And they call this "the Lord's recovery"? Don't blame this on the Lord. If anyone is looking for a reason to get out of that place, here it is...in black and white. Read it a few times (if you can). Is this the kind of person you want to become? Is this even Christian? Is this the voice of the good shepherd who laid down his life for his sheep? Is this what you call being "recovered"? This should help you find the door, or, this should help you to avoid this place like the plague that it is.

Then there's this "May the Lord have mercy on all the weaker vessels." Wow. Spoken like a true Pharisee. Those of us who were there and left know the attitude well. I just never imagined they would say it out loud.

Originally Posted by Weakvessel

This is the most infuriating and disgusting kind of post that one can read, especially coming from this church of witness lee. This kind of treatment of people, and total blind way of always blaming someone, rather than looking at the garbage that you all giving people, teaching people, claiming to be truth, is what flies in the face of every one that ever happened to wanted to leave your sect.

Local church is a place if you even consider leaving, you better count the costs. Just know that your decision will cost you everything and everyone you knew for decades, including your family, and in many cases own children/spouses and friends. They destroy your life first, then when you lose your mental ability to continue, they will claim that you are week/confused/depressed/weak vessel. What a fools, and disgraceful ones at that. They will even throw in demon possessed to feel better about themselves! Make my blood boil!

The amount of blood local church has on its hands is plenty enough to be silent and ashamed, but NO, they are out there claiming to be God-men! ��

Well said.

Nell

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hi Ohio,
If someone does not like to fellowship and worship in the Lord's recovery, then they are free to leave.

Yeah, sure. Raise a kid. Tell 'em that every other denomination is deformed and degraded and that The Lord's Recovery is the only way. Make every effort to hammer that in so that they become terrified of "death" for every thought they have against Witness Lee. Teach them to devalue relationships with other Christians who follow the "low gospel." Now 99% of their deepest relationships are in The Recovery. Then they start finding out all the nasty things that you guys did. They have concerns and want to fix the problem with their fellow saints in The Recovery. What are they told? Some believers would rather meet in another place where they are more comfortable.

"If you do not like it here, you can leave."

To take your own life is ones own responsibility, not a specific group of believers. It is ridiculous to blame anyone other than a mentally confused person. It is sad when a person is so depressed that they take their life, but no one encourages such an action. Obviously a weak, depressed, confused person needs some help and perhaps should seek it professionally. May the Lord have mercy on all the weaker vessels.

I would counsel you to read up on some basic psychology. Maybe take a semester with the simplest psychology courses in some community college. That's all it takes. Then when you finish those most basic of courses in psychology, take a hard look at what you've written right here while considering everything that your denomination teaches.

And boy will I have a laugh if you respond with something akin to "I am a psychologist."

If there is a way to describe the situation with the local church of Witness Lee, I would apply this statement that I heard from a sermon awhile back, “You are so spiritually minded, that you are no earthly good”. I understand that this isn’t a Biblical text to expound upon or something that is or was said by Biblical author. However, for those of us who have been in this movement, it hits close to home every time. The mastery and wizardry of Witness Lee to revolutionize the basic principles of application and reading of scriptures, (never mind the specific words of Jesus himself), and to punctuate and replace all tangible, meaningful things that pertain to every human need while in this world such as love, care, natural affection, friendships, relationships etc, with some life in the mystical realm as only a way of “God’s economy or God’s heart desire”, is a travesty and abomination!

Reading and seeing so many people struggling to cope with the devastating consequences and results of this ministry, especially younger generation, should be of critical importance to the current authority in place, but they just toss those people like lab rats to the side, as if the experiment on them has failed, and they aren’t very good building material to be a part of the “Bride”. This is the time you start questioning your own sanity, and asking, “God, where are You?”! Why are these men get to use such beautiful and loving name and create such a devastating group? Your answers to these questions maybe as good as mine, “they are so spiritual minded, they are no earthly good”! When the salt loses its flavor, it’s not good for any use. I suggest for the men that run this group, to spent some time in the first four gospels of New Testament, and see what and how Jesus while in this world expressed God, and what He did everyday that we have an account of in these writings. There wasn’t much mystical about it, and people loved him for it.

[aron]

Originally Posted by UnfilteredSkeptic

I suggest for the men that run this group, to spent some time in the first four gospels of New Testament, and see what and how Jesus while in this world expressed God, and what He did everyday that we have an account of in these writings. There wasn’t much mystical about it, and people loved him for it.

To your last sentence. There was a lot mystical about it, I think. "You must be born again', then look at Nicodemus' reaction. "Whaaaaa...????" A lot of that. Very obscure, challenging, and then, "they were all astonished beyond measure."

But that's not what drew people, not obscurantism and word play. He healed people. He fed people. God's love for the world was on full display not in theology but in human action. That was the magnet. They endured the weird teaching because they loved him.

In the local church we just got weird teaching. As if that was somehow what it was all about. Someone started a thread here once, "Not many Christians know" and quoted all the sayings from WL like this. How he was the only one who'd seen this or that, or knew this or that. Usually it was either some warmed-over 19th century Sunday School lesson, or something he made up on the fly.

One time I googled "Witness Lee center of the universe" and it was amazing, what turned up. I think he must have given a message on this once, and it so wowed the crowd that he did it again, with different center! That went boffo, and he did it again! But they all contradicted each other! Didn't matter, though, as long as the crowd got a buzz.

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by UnfilteredSkeptic

If there is a way to describe the situation with the local church of Witness Lee, I would apply this statement that I heard from a sermon awhile back, “You are so spiritually minded, that you are no earthly good”. I understand that this isn’t a Biblical text to expound upon or something that is or was said by Biblical author.

Ooh, perhaps James 2:14-19?

14 What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? 15 Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. 16 If one of you says to them, "Go in peace; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about their physical needs, what good is it? 17 In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead. 18 But someone will say "You have faith; I have deeds." Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds. 19 You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that and shudder.

Isn't Gnosticism also similar to the all of Lee's "too spiritual" mumbo jumbo?

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by UnfilteredSkeptic

If there is a way to describe the situation with the local church of Witness Lee, I would apply this statement that I heard from a sermon awhile back, “You are so spiritually minded, that you are no earthly good”.

I would also add in the Local Churches, Passive-aggressiveness tends to be a pervasive personality trait.
One would say the recovery is not for everyone. Yet when a brother or sister does leave, a change in attitude is transparent. An aggressive attitude.

[ACuriousFellow]

Originally Posted by TLFisher

I would also add in the Local Churches, Passive-aggressiveness tends to be a pervasive personality trait.
One would say the recovery is not for everyone. Yet when a brother or sister does leave, a change in attitude is transparent. An aggressive attitude.

I feel that, TLFisher. They're very "patient" (i.e. passive-aggressive), but when you aren't "open to the fellowship" (i.e. willing to immediately drop the issue and get over it), then they aren't so "patient" anymore and are forced to protect "the flow of life" (i.e. put you out because you're ruining the good vibes by questioning Lee's doctrines).

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

In the local church we just got weird teaching.

I apologize if my terms seem dismissive or disrespectful. I meant 'weird' in the manner that Jesus' "you must be born again" was weird to Nicodemus. It was new, challenging, strange, and difficult to process conceptually.

The forum is called Local Church Discussions and to facilitate discussions I shouldn't be so quick with terms that seem to make good copy. That may drive away people, instead of encouraging discussion amongst different mindsets. A discussion isn't a one-sided imposition of thoughts and values, or a debate where one wins and the other says, "We were wrong". Instead, it's a mutual learning opportunity. If I want others to learn from me, I have to choose words that demonstrate openness and learning behaviour.

Originally Posted by UnfilteredSkeptic

If there is a way to describe the situation with the local church of Witness Lee, I would apply this statement that I heard from a sermon awhile back, “You are so spiritually minded, that you are no earthly good”. I understand that this isn’t a Biblical text to expound upon or something that is or was said by Biblical author. However, for those of us who have been in this movement, it hits close to home every time. The mastery and wizardry of Witness Lee to revolutionize the basic principles of application and reading of scriptures, (never mind the specific words of Jesus himself), and to punctuate and replace all tangible, meaningful things that pertain to every human need while in this world such as love, care, natural affection, friendships, relationships etc, with some life in the mystical realm as only a way of “God’s economy or God’s heart desire”, is a travesty and abomination!

Reading and seeing so many people struggling to cope with the devastating consequences and results of this ministry, especially younger generation, should be of critical importance to the current authority in place, but they just toss those people like lab rats to the side, as if the experiment on them has failed, and they aren’t very good building material to be a part of the “Bride”. This is the time you start questioning your own sanity, and asking, “God, where are You?”! Why are these men get to use such beautiful and loving name and create such a devastating group? Your answers to these questions maybe as good as mine, “they are so spiritual minded, they are no earthly good”! When the salt loses its flavor, it’s not good for any use. I suggest for the men that run this group, to spent some time in the first four gospels of New Testament, and see what and how Jesus while in this world expressed God, and what He did everyday that we have an account of in these writings. There wasn’t much mystical about it, and people loved him for it.

UnfilteredSkeptic,

Many years have I spent in the local church, under the influence of the “wise master builder”. I have developed an attitude of dismissal and almost to the point of modern day “Cancel Culture” when it comes to Christianity and others outside our group. Constantly and almost daily reminder’s in the writings of the ministry of LSM, plus countless voices of those around you, foster this culture of “who got it better than us?”. It’s only when you get out of it, it hits you like a load of bricks that there are people who actually got things to hear and consider, outside of this group.

In Proverbs 11:14 says, “Where there is no counsel, the people fall;
But in the multitude of counselors there is safety.” My realization that the people of LC, have abandoned this basic principles, and besides LSM and their lies, there is no counsel! There is no multitude, it’s ether Witness and LSM, or else! The safety net has been removed, and replaced by a barb wired electric fence, that as soon as you come near sounds a WARNING ⚠️ “You leave this ministry, you are leaving God!”. Although members of this movement will claim that there is a multitude of men in their midst that will often offer counsel, it’s the source of all of their claims and statements that stands out like a broken nose.

Michael Horton had an interesting quote, which says “Nobody goes to the Bible alone, but carries with him or her a host of influences. It is infinitely easier to distort the Word of God when we cut ourselves off from the consensus of other Christians across time and place.” There have been many posts here that document all of the things and writings, messages and talks from the blended, that precisely cut off all of the other Christians who speak today and those that came before. Why? Because it’s easier to distort, change, add and remove from Scriptures, when the people only have a single point of reference. You are correct on a lot these points you make, unfortunately the people in this movement have been trained to ignore all who speak to this issue.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

UnfilteredSkeptic,

Many years have I spent in the local church, under the influence of the “wise master builder”. I have developed an attitude of dismissal and almost to the point of modern day “Cancel Culture” when it comes to Christianity and others outside our group. Constantly and almost daily reminder’s in the writings of the ministry of LSM, plus countless voices of those around you, foster this culture of “who got it better than us?”. It’s only when you get out of it, it hits you like a load of bricks that there are people who actually got things to hear and consider, outside of this group.

In Proverbs 11:14 says, “Where there is no counsel, the people fall;
But in the multitude of counselors there is safety.” My realization that the people of LC, have abandoned this basic principles, and besides LSM and their lies, there is no counsel! There is no multitude, it’s ether Witness and LSM, or else! The safety net has been removed, and replaced by a barb wired electric fence, that as soon as you come near sounds a WARNING ⚠️ “You leave this ministry, you are leaving God!”. Although members of this movement will claim that there is a multitude of men in their midst that will often offer counsel, it’s the source of all of their claims and statements that stands out like a broken nose.

Michael Horton had an interesting quote, which says “Nobody goes to the Bible alone, but carries with him or her a host of influences. It is infinitely easier to distort the Word of God when we cut ourselves off from the consensus of other Christians across time and place.” There have been many posts here that document all of the things and writings, messages and talks from the blended, that precisely cut off all of the other Christians who speak today and those that came before. Why? Because it’s easier to distort, change, add and remove from Scriptures, when the people only have a single point of reference. You are correct on a lot these points you make, unfortunately the people in this movement have been trained to ignore all who speak to this issue.

UnfilteredSkeptic. In order to continue posting on this forum, we ask that you register for membership. The moniker "UnfilteredSkeptic" is available. Send an email with your request to Reg4LCD@Gmail.Com.

Thanks--
Nell
Admin/Moderator

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

UnfilteredSkeptic,

Many years have I spent in the local church, under the influence of the “wise master builder”. I have developed an attitude of dismissal and almost to the point of modern day “Cancel Culture” when it comes to Christianity and others outside our group. Constantly and almost daily reminder’s in the writings of the ministry of LSM, plus countless voices of those around you, foster this culture of “who got it better than us?”. It’s only when you get out of it, it hits you like a load of bricks that there are people who actually got things to hear and consider, outside of this group.

In Proverbs 11:14 says, “Where there is no counsel, the people fall;
But in the multitude of counselors there is safety.” My realization that the people of LC, have abandoned this basic principles, and besides LSM and their lies, there is no counsel! There is no multitude, it’s ether Witness and LSM, or else! The safety net has been removed, and replaced by a barb wired electric fence, that as soon as you come near sounds a WARNING ⚠️ “You leave this ministry, you are leaving God!”. Although members of this movement will claim that there is a multitude of men in their midst that will often offer counsel, it’s the source of all of their claims and statements that stands out like a broken nose.

Michael Horton had an interesting quote, which says “Nobody goes to the Bible alone, but carries with him or her a host of influences. It is infinitely easier to distort the Word of God when we cut ourselves off from the consensus of other Christians across time and place.” There have been many posts here that document all of the things and writings, messages and talks from the blended, that precisely cut off all of the other Christians who speak today and those that came before. Why? Because it’s easier to distort, change, add and remove from Scriptures, when the people only have a single point of reference. You are correct on a lot these points you make, unfortunately the people in this movement have been trained to ignore all who speak to this issue.

Hi unregistered. Yes, please register as encouraged by Nell. I would like to continue reading your posts.

Best,

HERn

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

I feel that, TLFisher. They're very "patient" (i.e. passive-aggressive), but when you aren't "open to the fellowship" (i.e. willing to immediately drop the issue and get over it), then they aren't so "patient" anymore and are forced to protect "the flow of life" (i.e. put you out because you're ruining the good vibes by questioning Lee's doctrines).

Yes, if they're not open to your fellowship, there's the expectation you would drop the issue. One must be intuitive when to stop, because to push the issue will cause "the brothers" to become aggressive.

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

I feel that, TLFisher. They're very "patient" (i.e. passive-aggressive), but when you aren't "open to the fellowship" (i.e. willing to immediately drop the issue and get over it), then they aren't so "patient" anymore and are forced to protect "the flow of life" (i.e. put you out because you're ruining the good vibes by questioning Lee's doctrines).

I’ve discovered that the moment you tell those people that are seeking after you from Local Church, that I’m open to have fellowship about Christ and only about Him, without anything from the ministry, books or religious practices and rituals of Witness Lee, no footnotes or HWMRs, they will stop bugging you or just have an outburst of frustration right in front of you, but then leave you alone. It’s so sad to experience this, especially when you know what’s coming, by me being able to finish their sentences before they do. It’s almost as if it’s a robotic or prerecorded response, and then the lights go out, as if you just disarmed them! I know there are exceptions to these, and there are extreme zealots that will even assign you to Satan’s army, but those are exceptions.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

Yeah, sure. Raise a kid. Tell 'em that every other denomination is deformed and degraded and that The Lord's Recovery is the only way. Make every effort to hammer that in so that they become terrified of "death" for every thought they have against Witness Lee. Teach them to devalue relationships with other Christians who follow the "low gospel." Now 99% of their deepest relationships are in The Recovery. Then they start finding out all the nasty things that you guys did. They have concerns and want to fix the problem with their fellow saints in The Recovery. What are they told? Some believers would rather meet in another place where they are more comfortable.

"If you do not like it here, you can leave."

Those of us reading ACuriousFellow's post who were raised in the Local Churches can attest to his statement. I know I can. One thing ACuriousFellow did not mention is there is a pattern of conditioning.
Having lived through all that , why would I want to raise my children in the Local Church environment? It's not healthy. That's why when asked if my children would go to Summer School of Truth, I declined. Though they think to be well-meaning, I didn't trust them to have my children's best intentions at heart.
Problems that exist in the Local Churches, those in the lead don't want change. It's been said by a late elder, "The local churches is not going to change for anybody."

[ACuriousFellow]

Have we discussed the letter from the co-workers that was written in response to Jo Casteel's letter?

I mean... I suppose it's pretty much the same thing as the "Special Fellowship" in essence, but I just wanted to make sure it's logged here.

[newman263]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

Have we discussed the letter from the co-workers that was written in response to Jo Casteel's letter?

I mean... I suppose it's pretty much the same thing as the "Special Fellowship" in essence, but I just wanted to make sure it's logged here.

Thank you ACuriousFellow for posting this. When I clicked on the link "letter from the co-workers", I got something like: "Are you sure you want to go to this website (link-content fully shown)?" Then, as I advanced, warning after warning it is a malicious,dangerous, malware, etc site.

I stopped, retreated at this message: (Malware blocked. Site URL : juk.au9a3rqmvg.com Malware URL :juk.au9a3rqmvg.com
Potentially malicious activity has been blocked. However, you can still safely continue to view this site while using Browser Guard.).

My (naive) question is: Was this website link posted incorrectly, or has it since been somehow hacked/compromised by an external agent?

[ACuriousFellow]

Woah, yeah. I'm getting the same message now. Sorry about that. It worked at the time I posted it. Guess I'll have to find a new one.

Here's a link to the shepherding words website which contains the letter from the co-workers.

Unless something happens to their website, this new link should work fine.

[newman263]

it works, thanks.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by ACuriousFellow

Woah, yeah. I'm getting the same message now. Sorry about that. It worked at the time I posted it. Guess I'll have to find a new one.

Here's a link to the shepherding words website which contains the letter from the co-workers.

Unless something happens to their website, this new link should work fine.

Much like the public correspondence between the Concerned brothers and the Blended brothers from 15 years ago or so, I find the Blended brothers speaking in circles and not answering questions that requires answers. That was the case then as it is now.