In a local church only a few months... and now leaving.

[love4truth]

For right now, I wish to keep where I attend a local church a secret, because I do not wish to offend a woman there who I am fond of. I am an older woman, by the way.

I started going to an LC only a few months ago and became a little active before I realized I would have problems accepting the teaching. The over emphasis on one man's teachings turns me completely off, especially since I have found so many discrepancies in what is studied and taught and the Bible. I have been a born again Christian since 1984 and an avid Bible student. I found the LC site on the Internet, visited, and thought I would like the format they used in the meetings, especially the part where every member is expected and encouraged to speak. I have always enjoyed Bible discussions and am not shy in offering my opinions. I now find that opinions are frowned on, and only Witness Lee "knows the truth," therefore it is only acceptable to repeat his words.

I made a friend there, an older woman like myself. At least I consider her my friend. I really like her. But she tells me, and I read in Lee's books, that we are not supposed to have friends, not even those of the local church. My "friend" said a strange thing a few weeks ago. "We are to put distance between us and those we care about." This I cannot understand. Not at all. I would welcome some discussion on this.

My friend loves to read with people over the phone, and she and I read through Witness Lee's Life Study in Revelation over a couple of months time, reading every day. I grew tired of this, and hated a lot of Lee's commentary and found it untrue (to my thinking) but I saw it through and we finished about a week ago. She wants to start another Life Study. I told her, No, I had enough of Lee, and would read the Bible (starting with Romans) with her. She seems to agree to do this, which I find strange, in view of their wanting to focus on Lee's books. I do not want to be held to a daily schedule, but will limit it to a couple of times a week. Keeping up a daily schedule like this that involves another person seems like bondage to me. I value my freedom.

However, when I tell her I am not going back to the LC, she probably will quit calling me anyway. Right? I would like to remain friends with her and her husband. This may not be possible.

I started going to a grace-oriented church last week, where the teaching is expository. And am going to enjoy the Bible study we have there, with discussions directly on the Bible. Right now we are in the Gospel of John.

I know getting out of the LC is going to be an emotional difficulty, because some of the people are very nice, and some seem to really love Jesus. I would stay if the Bible were the ground of truth and faith there. But I cannot abide this putting of Lee on a pedestal and hanging on every word that he says as though he is the voice of God. The Holy Spirit and the Word of God are the Voice of God to me.

And this, after only 3 months there. I can appreciate how hard it is for people who have been in a LC for years and years and decide to get out.

Please give some discussion on the teaching that we are not to get close to others, the downplay of love, the constant meetings and trainings and the cultish worship of Lee. How can we be in unity as the church if we do not love one another? And no pastoral care! Sick people are ignored!!!! Also, I do not understand why no recognition of birthdays or holidays. It seems we are just supposed to dispense with American culture completely and the little celebrations of life that bring us together. It makes no sense to me.

I have read a lot of the posts on here and have gotten a lot from them.

[aron]

Originally Posted by love4truth

I can appreciate how hard it is for people who have been in a LC for years and years and decide to get out.

http://jubileeresources.org/?page_id=102

Here is a link to a testimony of someone who was in the group for 7 years. You can see how the group not only drew her in, but drew her out of everything else (family, society, Christian fellowship) so that when she wanted to leave she didn't know how. It was very hard and painful to get out.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by love4truth

However, when I tell her I am not going back to the LC, she probably will quit calling me anyway. Right? I would like to remain friends with her and her husband. This may not be possible.

Well, it will depend upon the individual person, but yes, it is likely that she will find excuses to minimize fellowship with you. Unfortunately, those in the Local Church are not encouraged (to put it mildly) to have contact with, much less fellowship, Christians who do not attend LC meetings on a regular basis.

I started going to a grace-oriented church last week, where the teaching is expository. And am going to enjoy the Bible study we have there, with discussions directly on the Bible. Right now we are in the Gospel of John.

This is great! God's Word is always the answer! Whether the preaching/teaching is expository or topical, the answer is the Word. Teaching on the Word, preaching on the Word, fellowship on the Word, prayer on the Word!

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by love4truth

The over emphasis on one man's teachings turns me completely off, especially since I have found so many discrepancies in what is studied and taught and the Bible.

I would like the format they used in the meetings, especially the part where every member is expected and encouraged to speak.

I now find that opinions are frowned on, and only Witness Lee "knows the truth," therefore it is only acceptable to repeat his words.

we are not supposed to have friends, not even those of the local church. My "friend" said a strange thing a few weeks ago. "We are to put distance between us and those we care about."

However, when I tell her I am not going back to the LC, she probably will quit calling me anyway. Right? I would like to remain friends with her and her husband. This may not be possible.

I know getting out of the LC is going to be an emotional difficulty, because some of the people are very nice, and some seem to really love Jesus. I would stay if the Bible were the ground of truth and faith there. But I cannot abide this putting of Lee on a pedestal and hanging on every word that he says as though he is the voice of God. The Holy Spirit and the Word of God are the Voice of God to me.

How can we be in unity as the church if we do not love one another? And no pastoral care! Sick people are ignored!!!! Also, I do not understand why no recognition of birthdays or holidays.

Many fine points that I agree with.
1. Celebration of birthdays in the local churches is a personal matter. As a child in the local churches, I had been to many birthday parties of my peers in my locality.
2. Holidays. Typically holidays are recognized by having conferences. Though Thanksgiving is the only one I recall being acknowledged. In my college years, my parents would always invite friends from another locality or a sister within our locality and her children.
3. Friends. It is rare to develop friendships that endure when one ceases to meet with the local churches. Contrary to what is spoken about distancing those we care about, friendships are cultivated. Sadly many friendships cannot continue when one ceases to meet any longer. It's part of the Us and Them mindset.
4. Pastoral care. In a sense there this care, but based on being partial. If you are one described as "hot for the ministry", you will receive care. If you are one described as "lukewarm for the ministry" or "lacking the vision", you will be ignored. Generally pastoral care is reserved more for the college age with the intent of nurturing and preparing them for the full time trainings.
5. Opinions. It has often been said there are no opinions in the recovery. Given we are all fallen, someone's opinion will be expressed. Generally it is expected to embrace the opinions of blended brothers and the ministry.
6. Meeting format: I have only met in one place outside the local churches (Westminster Church Assembly) where there is an opportunity to speak. Unlike 25 years ago, the current format of speaking is limited to the ministry and not how you were touched by your daily walk with the Lord during the week or relating experiences that could minister to another brother or sister's walk with the Lord.
7. The scope of one man's teaching invariably will omit Biblical teachings he didn't find supporting his ministry or teachings that are convicting to one's spirit. Many times in the local churches the Holy Word for Morning Revival is meant to be positive and affirming the ministry. I have found since leaving the local churches, the best messages I have heard are ones that leave me inwardly disturbed by my spirit being convicted by the message.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by love4truth

How can we be in unity as the church if we do not love one another?

In the local churches, most (but not all) are welcomed to come and meet. The love and care that should be without bias, is measured according to ones love for the ministry. That is why it is difficult for local churches to keep a sustained growth. If one has a "take it or leave it" approach to the ministry publications, that one might be considered a waste of time to labor on in love and care.
Talk about unity. Yes there should be unity in the church, but when your common denominator is ministry publications instead of the Bible, in essence it's not local churches, but ministry churches. A fellowship of churches that's more based on uniformity than it is unity. Before there can be unity, there must be love.

Hello,

I am currently a college student in which I have a friend who's family has had very strong ties in the local church. She has currently been re-sucked into the church, just after about 10 years of disliking the church, and of having negative feelings for it all throughout her high school and most of her college career.

She has been feeling a lot of inner turmoil - a lot of trying to please mom and dad in the name of God while also feeling detached from the church. She's never felt that she belongs.

I'm worried she's going to try to change herself and get sucked into this for her life when in her heart she doesn't feel that way. I still have her questioning and stuff, but I literally have her by a thread. It's only a matter of time before she completely gets rid of me.

Any advice on getting someone out of LC?

[UntoHim]

Hi NeedofHelp,

Thank you for having the courage to reach out here. This is one of the main reasons this forum exists - to have a venue for people like you.

My main question to you, to start with, is to ask if you are a Christian? The reason why I ask is that it would bear upon how we might be able to help you out. Just because you are not a Christian does NOT mean we can't or don't want to help you, it just changes the approach we might ask you to take.

I am a Christian, and I have prayed a lot about this, and I know the Lord is working in her - I see it in the struggle she has. But if she left the church it would be leaving her friends and family. Although I have told her repeatedly my family is her family, and we have lots of other friends outside the church, she has been guilted into the church by her family. We just recently overcame a spell where she wouldn't talk to me - her mother forbade her too. Her mother frequently wanted me to come to the church gatherings (but I was unaware of this, my friend just recently told me) and my friend just would make up excuses to get me out of it, because she knew I would not like it. I have never personally been to a LC meeting, but I have done a lot, and I mean a lot of research. Her feeling like she doesn't belong isn't something to be ignored, but anytime I speak of her church she says I talk like I know everything and that I don't know what I'm talking about, so the conversation is usually avoided. But I feel that I am the one who will help her out of this situation. I think I may also be able to use one of her friends in the church. She only has one good friend, and I think her friend is unaware of how bad this church is. Her friend just came in looking for a christian group on campus, so she doesn't really know what she's gotten herself into. I feel that if maybe I can get her friend out, then I could get her out too. I really hate to see her sucked into this. I've talked with God about it a lot, and I have a strong feeling that is what is to happen. He lead me to this forum, and he's lead me to many other sites. I just pray I can help her before it's too late.

Does anyone know their views? I have encountered them mildly, and I am pretty sure they don't approve of gay/lesbian. Also, on marriage, I have heard that they believe you should marry within the church. Is that true as well? Are there any testimonies on this?

Thank you all. I am trying to get all my facts down before helping a friend.

[InChristAlone]

NeedofHelp, I believe the main thing you can do for your friend is your prayer. Pray always for your friend, don’t rely on your strength, wisdom, and understanding, but let the Lord deal with the situation. Your friend needs God's grace more than anything that you can give her. Therefore, never stop praying.

In my opinion, the LC is a cult and its members are cult victims. Usually, cult members refuse to listen to any independent sources of information that criticize the cult and its teaching. The information is considered invalid because it comes from an outsider. And you are an outsider, while the LC members are “the chosen ones”. The LC members believe that Christianity is fallen and it’s only them who know “the high-peak truth”. That doesn’t mean that you can’t do anything or you have to join the cult to help your friend. I just want to say that it can be hard for you to persuade your friend to leave the LC. She doesn't trust your opinion because you are not an authority for her in this matter. You may tell her the truth about WL and his son, but she won’t believe the facts. You may tell her that the LC substitutes the word of God (the Bible) for the word of man (WL and his books), but it will be a miracle if she notices the substitution.

You can try to change your approach. Don’t tell your friend everything you know about the LC. Do the opposite. Start asking questions. Don’t be pushy. Just ask a question from time to time: How often do you read the Bible? Why do you read the Morning Revival and Crystallization Study, not the Bible? What was the last message about? How does this message relate to Christ’s message? Can this “high-peak truth” be higher than Christ’s words: 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself'? Can “the high-peak truth” help us enter the kingdom of God if we don’t love our neighbors (who are everyone around us and not saints only)? What makes you think that the LRC is the only genuine Christian church? Why do you rely on one man’s opinion about the Bible? What makes this man to be an authority? Could he make mistakes? If he could make small mistakes, could he make crucial mistakes as well? What made WL change his opinion and vision from time to time? If he is infallible, doesn't he remind you a pope? Can I share with you another interpretation of the verse? Why do saints leave the church? Are all these saints ambitious, proud, and arrogant? If she knows the truth about the hidden history of the LC, ask her if a bad tree can bear good fruit? Can we be saved, eating fruit of a bad tree? What did Jesus say about false teachers? What are their fruits? (Matthew 7:15-20) What are their character qualities? Greed, pride, and rebellion? (Jude 1:11) What kind of man was WL in his private and church life? What did he say about Christianity and other Christian churches? What are characteristics of denominations? Can the LC be called denominational church of Witness Lee? Are Christ's message and WL's message the same? What about "the high-peak truth?" Does WL go further than traditional Christian churches? What is this upgrade for? If the gospel of Christ and His words remain the same, then why does the Bible need an upgrade and update (or recovery)? Where does Jesus mention WL's "high-peak truth"? How many Bible verses support "the high-peak truth" in the Morning Revival? Why does this "high-peak truth" take priority over Jesus's words? Does this "high-peak truth" help you to love God and your neighbor more? Where is Christ in the high-peak truth of Witness Lee? Can you say that you can see Christ in WL's books more than you see Him in the Gospels? If not, then why do you start your day with the word of man (Morning Revival) and not with the word of God (the Bible)? What if WL's doctrines don't lead you to Christ but somewhere else? What about the Apostle Paul who says in Galatians, “Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ... If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!”

Pray to the Lord to grant you wisdom and ask right questions in the right time. Plant your seeds step by step. Help your friend to question her beliefs. But again... Don’t behave like an enemy to her. Be her friend. Always.

You may also try to email her some testimonies like this: http://jubileeresources.org/?page_id=102 (Thanks to Aron!) Ask your friend to explain some points; ask what she thinks about the testimonies. But don’t bomb her email account with testimonies day and night.

Read more about cults to find out similar characteristics between the LC and other cults. If your friend takes you to an LC meeting, pray to the Lord, before, during, and after the meeting. I don’t recommend to attend the LC meetings, but if you happen to be there, you must be warned and fully alert of the cultish system so that not to be deceived by the external state of joy, goodwill, and happiness.

http://www.leaderu.com/common/cults.html
http://www.the-gospel.org/stdy_hrmnt....php?pass=prnt
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q8.html

Last but not least, start changing yourself. I’m sure you are a good Christian, but there is always a way for perfection. “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect”. (Matthew 5:48) Read and study the Bible, fulfill commandments, pray more, developing your personal relationship with Christ. Glorify His name with your thoughts, words, and actions. Fight your passions. Don’t gossip, don’t discuss people, and don’t waste your time with idle talk. If you speak, speak with love, humility, and kindness. That’s difficult for everyone of us. I’m not an exception. But if we want to help our friends and relatives to leave the darkness, we must become a torch for them. To do that, we must let the light of Christ to shine through us. That doesn’t happen overnight. You will need to make efforts to live in communion with God. But if you live in strong connection with the Lord and bear the fruit of the Holy Spirit, then it will be easier for you to show the right way to your friend. You will not be a torch holder but a part of the light. If your friend sees Christ in you and your life more than in her church life, she may wonder and start questioning. And one day she may say to herself, “How come my friend has no idea about the LC high-peak truth but s/he is so full of Christ? Is there something wrong with my spiritual life? I had better spend more time with my friend. Maybe s/he can show me a better way to Christ”.

May the Lord’s love, kindness, and humility dwell in you. God bless.

I have tried with the harmless questions but she thinks I am interested in her church and she tries to protect me and doesn't want me to come. I have known her for 2 and a half years and she has never had me come to any of her church services or dinners, except once where it wasn't exactly a church dinner, I just experienced a prayer before the dinner which was odd to me how they did it. But anyways, I try to ask questions and she will just keep it very general or say I don't understand. A new tactic they use on our campus is during orientation she has to text everyone that comes by their church booth and say how excited they are for the upcoming year and they hope to see them again. I know she has this inner turmoil because she will tell me how she feels that she doesn't belong, but she will blame it on other things, such as she has class that she is missing, etc. One of the funniest things she says, I wish she could hear it replayed to her, about the church is this:

"I know I haven't liked it for the past 8 years, but I'm trying to like it now and it's just hard to get out of that mindset that I dislike it and into the mindset that I like it."

Last time she said this I just stared at her and said "Oh okay." because I don't want to push her buttons. She's been trying to like them for the past 4 months, and some days she likes it and some days she doesn't. She had told me before that she is questioning things, like is she happy or is this what she stands for, but I think that it gets quickly shut down because of her family. She will flip modes, too. Some days she's the original person that I know and love, and other days she will turn into this mean, abrupt, rude person to me, which are usually the days she defends the church. I know this is a long road and I pray a lot and see Him working in her, I just feel that I play a key role in getting her out. I'm pretty much her only shot.

But now that I've read through this feed, I've seen that most members get out on their own accord, such as they feel it in their heart that it's wrong. I think she's feeling that now but she is trying to bury that feeling to please mom and dad. She doesn't want to be the mess up of the family, and I wasn't aware that the church practically excommunicates members, so I did not realize that her family may disown her or not talk to her. Of course she would try to stick it out and deal with it, so as to not lose her family. I feel so bad for her and wish I could make it easier for her.

I have a side question, does anyone know if LC threatens members if they leave? Like is there a punishment or some damnation that is told to members to try to scare them to stay in?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by NeedofHelp

She has been feeling a lot of inner turmoil - a lot of trying to please mom and dad in the name of God while also feeling detached from the church. She's never felt that she belongs.

I'm worried she's going to try to change herself and get sucked into this for her life when in her heart she doesn't feel that way.

Hello NeedofHelp.

If your friend feels a belonging in the LC don't try to stop her from going back in. Something in her needs it; maybe it's the structure, maybe that they have all the ready made answers, that simplifies life for her, including with her family. How are you going to oppose that?

So let her dive all in.

If her heart is not in it it won't last. Let her get it out of her system.

And if she stays in the LC that's where she belongs ... even if it makes you sad.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by NeedOfHelp

I have a side question, does anyone know if LC threatens members if they leave? Like is there a punishment or some damnation that is told to members to try to scare them to stay in?

Directly? No.

But they warn that they will be unable to "go on" with God. Oddly, it seems somewhat true for many because they get addicted to the kind of meetings that have been and can't find them elsewhere, so they just stop going anywhere and often die on the vine. It is a kind of sickness that is caused by the LRC and not by the other places.

And they also sometimes tell the kind of "someone once left and got run over by a truck" stories. Those have been told by all kinds of groups since before there were trucks (of course with a different culprit).

The worst thing they do is convince the people that their way is really the right way and everyone else's is wrong. And if they are failing at it, it is just a matter of our inability to do it right. Anything else is just wrong. Drill that in long enough and people are convinced that they are associated with the thing that is as close to "the way" as can be found and they will never leave. And if they do, they are convinced that nothing else will do instead because it is even "worse" than what they had.

But it is all smoke and mirrors. They tell you about how everyone else is in a garlic room as they cut clove after clove of garlic in the room until you don't recognize truth from fantasy. They are playing on the weakest part of man's mind, and that is often his vanity. A little like the rats that have two levers to pull; one gives them a mild, pleasurable electric shock while the other delivers run-of-the-mill food. They will pull the shock lever until they collapse, then get up and pull it some more. It strokes them.

I am reminded a little of that King of Rohan in the second book of JRR Tolkien's Lord of the Rings trilogy who drove his own family away because of a spell cast upon him. When Gandalf drove off the spell, there was a slow change in both his appearance and his thinking. It can be eliminated. But not while the thinking remains clouded.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by OBW

Drill that in long enough and people are convinced that they are associated with the thing that is as close to "the way"

Stand back from it all and ask: Is this what Jesus pictured for his followers? Is going constant meetings, conferences, trainings, reading the same material, following one man, going around calling 'Oh Lord Jesus' all the time, what Jesus pictured for his followers?

Seems ludicrous to me.

[OBW]

Originally Posted by awareness

Stand back from it all and ask: Is this what Jesus pictured for his followers? Is going constant meetings, conferences, trainings, reading the same material, following one man, going around calling 'Oh Lord Jesus' all the time, what Jesus pictured for his followers?

Seems ludicrous to me.

If that is what had been recorded, then I could be willing to go along with it. But I don't find that anywhere. I find an OT full of types and pictures that made "meetings" less, on average, than once a month with long periods of working in the fields, buying and selling in the marketplace, living with family and hired workers — all with a commandment to love them, to deal with them honestly in all aspects of life, and so on.

And despite the rather lengthy section of one book that tells about all the sacrifices, it seems that after that, it was more common to find God saying "I desire obedience, not sacrifice."

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by NeedOfHelp

I have tried with the harmless questions but she thinks I am interested in her church and she tries to protect me and doesn't want me to come.

That is not just your friend. For many in the local churches this is normal response. Not that they would acknowledge, but if these brothers and sisters are honest there would be an admission the churchlife is not for everyone. There is a reluctance to invite your friends, your coworkers, your relatives, etc. Your friend may not want you to come, because the nature of the meeting is not generally receptive to all Christians. Just as in certain foods, there's an acquired taste. Same for the LC meetings, it takes an acquired taste. Because of that your friend may be fearful your reaction may affect your friendship. As your initial reaction may think of "sectarian" or "cult" and naturally most LC members become defensively reactive to such descriptions of the LC meetings.

[Thankful Jane]

Originally Posted by NeedofHelp

Hello,

I am currently a college student in which I have a friend who's family has had very strong ties in the local church. She has currently been re-sucked into the church, just after about 10 years of disliking the church, and of having negative feelings for it all throughout her high school and most of her college career.

She has been feeling a lot of inner turmoil - a lot of trying to please mom and dad in the name of God while also feeling detached from the church. She's never felt that she belongs.

I'm worried she's going to try to change herself and get sucked into this for her life when in her heart she doesn't feel that way. I still have her questioning and stuff, but I literally have her by a thread. It's only a matter of time before she completely gets rid of me.

Any advice on getting someone out of LC?

Hi NeedofHelp.

I was a member of the LC for 20 years. You might benefit from reading my testimony and you might find a way to use it to help her. There is a free download of my story at:

www.thethreadofgold.com

The download is at the bottom of the Home page.

It appears she is struggling with how to get her need met for a good relationship with her family. She knows that in order to do that she has to embrace what they embrace as the truth about God. She is trying hard to do that. The only way she can is to stop using her own mind to think and decide about things. That is a tortuous place to be in.

Her real need is to find her own real, satisfying, purposeful relationship with Jesus. That is hard to do when your belief system tells you the only way to have that is by being in the LC. My book might help with that.

The Lord bless you for your love and care for your friend. I will pray you will be able to help her find the way to Him and to the real inner peace she is seeking.

Jane A.

Originally Posted by NeedOfHelp

I have a side question, does anyone know if LC threatens members if they leave? Like is there a punishment or some damnation that is told to members to try to scare them to stay in?

I would say no, but indirectly yes. I grew up in the local church and my grandpa is a leading individual in the church. I left years ago and definitely got looked down on. Maybe partially because I am happy to speak about it and am not quiet on my opinions of them. Of all the people that I knew there I only really ever see one person still and she was the only person I knew there that never judged me for being me. All I can say is that there are a lot of very fake people there. Christianity is about not judging others so there should be no reason to be fake. Eventually however, I stopped caring about what they would think of me and did what made me happy. I'm happily meeting somewhere else and have never felt happier. Definitely never experienced Christ in the local church like I did at my new church. So who cares what they say!!

[Cal]

The whole power of the LC over members and ex-members comes from the mistaken idea that you must go through them to get the blessings of God.

This is a total deception. There is no biblical reason to believe such a thing. God doesn't grant anyone exclusive distribution rights. In fact, the opposite is true. God will work through anyone and any group.

Once you see this deception for what it is, you are free. However, you must still chart a path for your "going on." You must find fellowship, live a holy life, and all the rest. Many people who are disappointed with their spiritual lives post-LC simply haven't learned to function outside of that cocoon-like culture. Even if you are assured that the LC has no power over you, you still have to find your way going forward. You have to adapt to new cultures and new ways of doing things.

Some of the LC-ingrained ideas die hard. It took me a long time to realize the point of life is not to be spiritual. Rather the point of being spiritual is life. By that I mean spirituality is supposed to issue in what the Bible calls "good works." In the same manner, for example, we eat, drink and breathe, but we don't make those things ends in themselves. The end is living itself--a life well-lived, full of good works, glorifying God. The LC tried to make everything about eating, and ended up with a vacuous, pointless culture.

The list goes on. But though the LC has no monopoly on anything, knowing that should become simply a footnote to your life going forward. You have to adapt and change.

[awareness]

What concerns me most about the LC movement, is not the flaws of the local church, but the flaws that were in me, that caused me to join the group, and stay in it for so long.

I can leave the local church flaws behind. But my flaws stay with me wherever I go ... and into my new life, outside the LC. These are the lasting flaws, that will just get us into more trouble, causing us to possibly repeat the pattern, taking us to another dead end.

I think it will come natural, or should, that after leaving we'll become very careful about hooking our wagon to: some one, some thing, or some movement, group, or leader.

Yes we may learn from others smarter than we. But that doesn't mean we hook up to them, like we hooked up to the local church.

I'd say the most important concern after leaving the LC is to develop your critical thinking (thinking for yourself). Cuz you allowed others in the LC do your thinking for you -- all nicely packaged and delivered to you (for a fee) -- a lot of your brain muscles atrophied. It may take time to redevelop them, back into shape, or to, in my case, develop them fresh. In a nutshell, basically, as Jesus advised, become "wise as serpents." And work out your relationship with God from there, wherever that may lead.

Yes, there's life after the local church ... and there's still God ... and Jesus ... and the Bible ... and love ... and laughs. More than enough.

Enjoy it!!! And be sure to give thanks ....

And there will be peace in the valley. Amen!

I have always had an issue with the LC saying that it is the "movement of the age" and that WL is the "apostle of the age". There is no mention of some great prophet or apostle rising from the land of the dragon (China) in the last days to bring all Christians back into the "true form" of meeting in Scripture. Honestly, brethren, don't you think that the Lord would be sure to mention that this special apostle was coming so that we would not "miss the boat"? Would He not want all of His saints to partake? If this is the TRUE church meeting in the TRUE way, would He not say something to make us watch for it? I realize that they lay hold of Philadelphia and claim to be that church. However, is it not THEY who say (when it comes to receiving light from any Christian not dead and long gone) "we are rich and have need of nothing?" Not like Philadelphia--but Laodicea.

I simply have never been able to "overcome" the incredible audacity of someone getting to the "playground" last and declaring himself "king of the hill". I guess that this means that I am NOT an overcomer and never will be!

And regarding what Igzy shared (and I agree!) about being spiritual--I would only say that all that it takes to be "spiritual" is to be focusing on the Lord Jesus and God the Father with love. At that moment, we are spiritual. There is no recipe, no mantra, only looking into His Beautiful Face and loving Him as we go through each day.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I have always had an issue with the LC saying that it is the "movement of the age" and that WL is the "apostle of the age". There is no mention of some great prophet or apostle rising from the land of the dragon (China) in the last days to bring all Christians back into the "true form" of meeting in Scripture. Honestly, brethren, don't you think that the Lord would be sure to mention that this special apostle was coming so that we would not "miss the boat"? Would He not want all of His saints to partake? If this is the TRUE church meeting in the TRUE way, would He not say something to make us watch for it?

Have you not read that Nee and Lee were prophesied in Revelation as the two witnesses, the two olive trees?

Originally Posted by Ohio

Have you not read that Nee and Lee were prophesied in Revelation as the two witnesses, the two olive trees?

Ohio. Where had you read? Prove it.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Ohio. Where had you read? Prove it.

Sorry, you must have thought I was being serious.

I was only repeating something I heard years ago.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Sorry, you must have thought I was being serious.

I was only repeating something I heard years ago.

The Living Streamers are smart enough not to print their more incendiary assertions. They don't want to leave a paper trail, to scare off the newbies.

But they'll say that kind of thing, privately, if you've demonstrated that you have "the vision". Then you'll get to hear Local Church secrets.

One of the things that attracted me to the church was the strong worship of Christ Our Lord. How many places can one actively call out the feelings of love and admiration that are being felt for Our Lord during a service without being considered outrageously out-of-line? I am very thankful for that aspect of the LC.

As time has gone on and continues to move forward, I cannot help but see how the LC has become more and more like the Catholic Church. The Catholics have always maintained that they are the true church and while they do admit now that the Lord has sheep in "other folds", they maintain their belief that they are the REAL church. I have attended Catholic services and cannot help but notice that Christ's name is mentioned a great deal, but it is mixed with the Marian doctrine (which is a tragedy) and an adoration of the church. The church, as the bride, should not speak of herself or glorify herself. Her focus, the desire of her heart, is always on the Bridegroom. I hear speaking after speaking in which the church (LC) is spoken of in glowing terms--as if she were worthy of a kind of worship. In the Bible church that I attended when young, this never occurred. Oh, someone might mention that they enjoyed the Youth group or that pastor so-and-so had led them to the Lord, but testimonies and speakings NEVER glorified the church, only the Father and Christ. The only other group of believers that I remember speaking of "the church" in this way were Catholics. I find it ironic that the LC who despises the Catholic Church for her erroneous teachings (and there are, indeed, many) has become like them in diversion of loyalty and worship to the bride from the Bridegroom.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

The church, as the bride, should not speak of herself or glorify herself. Her focus, the desire of her heart, is always on the Bridegroom. I hear speaking after speaking in which the church (LC) is spoken of in glowing terms--as if she were worthy of a kind of worship.

If you go to the LSM training or conference, or read the written material, and the focus and attention is on "the church as the Body and Bride of Christ" you can see the focus shifting.

In the Lord's Table meeting there will be the perfunctory, "Father God we love You!" declaration, until the focus turns back to the "ministry", which is about "building the Body" and "consummating the New Jerusalem". The greatest commandment, to love God and love your neighbor as yourself, is relegated to lesser status.

And then a new phrase appears in the jargon: "for Christ and the church", which eventually just becomes "forchristandthechurch". So when you get married, don't fall in love with the soulmate given to you by God; rather, get married forchristandthechurch.

The irony is indeed striking that this movement eventually became a mirror not of Christ but of the RCC. Of all things.

Terry shared:

"Pastoral care. In a sense there this care, but based on being partial. If you are one described as "hot for the ministry", you will receive care. If you are one described as "lukewarm for the ministry" or "lacking the vision", you will be ignored. Generally pastoral care is reserved more for the college age with the intent of nurturing and preparing them for the full time trainings."

When I first touched the LC, I was awed by how it seemed to reach out to those in the "highways and byways"--the cast-offs of society, the unwashed--and invite them in to the Love Feasts, etc. There was a genuine desire to share Christ with everyone, but particularly those in "low places". Somehow, somewhere, the focus changed completely. There is now an attempt to capture the fragrant young--the future high-salaried college kids with absolutely NO desire to minister to oh, say, a truck stop or nursing home--let's leave THOSE tasks to the Pentecostals, Methodists, and Baptists. THOSE people bring problems into the church that might have to be dealt with-such as addiction, dysfunctional homes, etc. THOSE people will not be able to give as much. THOSE people may not be smart enough to fully comprehend the wording of our writings (tripartite, intrinsic) and, therefore, be unable to echo it back. The sick--if popular (and that is the REAL word for it, not just "hot for the ministry" because I have seen those who are totally FOR the ministry be ignored because they lack charisma) get lots of attention, prayers, and food. The old--even those who have spent their lives under the ministry--are given little attention.

Pastoral care is said to be a "body matter"--that EVERYONE is responsible for ministering one to another. The problem is that if EVERYONE is responsible, no one does it. Tasks that are not specifically assigned to someone are most often left undone. In the denominations, the "despised" clergy is assigned this task and, therefore, show up and pray and then put the "bereavement committee" or the "food committee" on task taking care of everyone--popular or unpopular. The leadership of the local churches are not tasked with caring for the sick, the dying, the fading-in-faith, etc. It has been my observation that they are not assigned this task--it is, after all, a "body matter", and we know what that means.... It was not always this way. Many are grieved to see the change.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

When I first touched the LC, I was awed by how it seemed to reach out to those in the "highways and byways"--the cast-offs of society, the unwashed--and invite them in to the Love Feasts, etc. There was a genuine desire to share Christ with everyone, but particularly those in "low places". Somehow, somewhere, the focus changed completely. There is now an attempt to capture the fragrant young--the future high-salaried college kids with absolutely NO desire to minister to oh, say, a truck stop or nursing home--let's leave THOSE tasks to the Pentecostals, Methodists, and Baptists. THOSE people bring problems into the church that might have to be dealt with-such as addiction, dysfunctional homes, etc. THOSE people will not be able to give as much. THOSE people may not be smart enough to fully comprehend the wording of our writings (tripartite, intrinsic) and, therefore, be unable to echo it back. The sick--if popular (and that is the REAL word for it, not just "hot for the ministry" because I have seen those who are totally FOR the ministry be ignored because they lack charisma) get lots of attention, prayers, and food. The old--even those who have spent their lives under the ministry--are given little attention.

I have definitely noticed this, and it has always bothered me a bit. It seems like the LC has always placed a strong emphasis on trying to gain people, yet in reality they don't want you to gain just anyone. I've heard them list all the reasons why they should focus on gaining college students.