Forgiveness

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I realized that I don't actually have much awareness or experience of the Lord forgiving me, and as I pondered further I realized that I shockingly don't think I need much forgiveness.

I appreciate the self reflection and honesty in your post. I sympathize with it and cringe at it all at the same time. In 2014 I was recalibrated (again) to see how far I fall from the Glory of God each day. Do not think more highly of yourself than you ought to - the Lord may just help you in a way you don't want to be helped. You can PM me if you're interested in this story.

I was never a "Church Kid" (by the grace of God) - and I know there is a lot of baggage that goes along with that - We can't use things like this an an excuse. It sounds like you're moving in the right direction, honestly identify the issue and let the Spirit work through this (and if you're like me - DESPITE you). Blessings in your journey.

I wonder if the problem is the thought that you're too "good" (or insert your preferred phrase here) or don't realize how "good" God is (grasp His perfect, holy, and just nature?)

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

I appreciate the self reflection and honesty in your post. I sympathize with it and cringe at it all at the same time. In 2014 I was recalibrated (again) to see how far I fall from the Glory of God each day. Do not think more highly of yourself than you ought to - the Lord may just help you in a way you don't want to be helped. You can PM me if you're interested in this story.

I was never a "Church Kid" (by the grace of God) - and I know there is a lot of baggage that goes along with that - We can't use things like this an an excuse. It sounds like you're moving in the right direction, honestly identify the issue and let the Spirit work through this (and if you're like me - DESPITE you). Blessings in your journey.

I wonder if the problem is the thought that you're too "good" (or insert your preferred phrase here) or don't realize how "good" God is (grasp His perfect, holy, and just nature?)

LofT,

I am fully on board with your cringing at my post. I know how arrogant and blind it sounds.

It's funny that you mention the verse about thinking more highly of yourself. I actually have pervasive thoughts about how worthless and unwanted I am to the point where I feel sorry for people who have to interact much with me or have me in their lives in any extensive way because I assume most people don't want to or would prefer not to, given the choice. I actually had an elder use that very verse to show me that although we shouldn't think more highly of ourselves than we ought, there is still the "ought".....meaning there is an "ought" level of height to which we should esteem ourselves.....just not more highly than we ought though.

One of the sermons I heard said that if you are a person who cannot forgive others, then you don't understand the depth you've been forgiven by God. Maybe you don't think you're that bad and need forgiveness, and if that's the case then you should be scared to death. Alternatively, if you won't forgive, then you are in open rebellion towards God, and discipline is coming your way....and you should be scared!

I think after hearing that I am more scared that I'm not scared. What do you do then?

In thinking further about it, I think what it comes down to is I have a hard time accepting blame when I didn't cause any of this. I didn't create the universe, I didn't create man and put them in front of two trees, I wasn't the one who was in the garden fellowshipping with God but who listened to the snake and ate the forbidden tree instead thus injecting sin into all subsequent humans. I was just born. I was born, out of my control, and with the sin nature, out of my control, so why should I feel bad when I'm not perfect? I'm not responsible for any of the whole shebang. Please don't get me wrong - I am not numb to my conscience necessarily, I definitely feel the hot flush of shame if I'm caught doing something I shouldn't, I can't lie and look someone in the eye at the same time, if I want with everything in me to retaliate against someone I am inwardly prevented from doing it. But as far as the awareness of my dirt and sin or my need of forgiveness, I don't have that much. Even the thought that "my sin put the Lord on the cross".....well, I sin because I was born with the sin nature, none of us are immune, so since it's not something I had any power to prevent why should I whip myself over it?

I think I'm making the cringing worse and frankly kind of feel like I'm Pharoah typing with a hardened heart, but again, I have to be transparent here in case anyone who understands can give any advice or experience that would help.

Trapped

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Trapped

One of the sermons I heard said that if you are a person who cannot forgive others, then you don't understand the depth you've been forgiven by God. Maybe you don't think you're that bad and need forgiveness, and if that's the case then you should be scared to death. Alternatively, if you won't forgive, then you are in open rebellion towards God, and discipline is coming your way....and you should be scared!

I think after hearing that I am more scared that I'm not scared. What do you do then?

In thinking further about it, I think what it comes down to is I have a hard time accepting blame when I didn't cause any of this.

Sorry to butt in, but brother Trapped, maybe you should stop listening to sermons.

"I was born here and I'll die here, against my will ..." Bob Dylan- Not Dark Yet.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by awareness

Sorry to butt in, but brother Trapped, maybe you should stop listening to sermons.

True dat! Spritual and psycological damage can be inflicted by self-assured bible thumpers. Sheep should watch out for false shepherds.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by HERn

True dat! Spritual and psycological damage can be inflicted by self-assured bible thumpers. Sheep should watch out for false shepherds.

Evidence of a true shepherd would be if he/she is continually before the Great Shepherd pleading that He would enable them to better shepherd His flock. Evidence of an evil shepherd might be if he is more concerned with being absolute for a man's ministry rather than shepherding the flock according to Christ's example.

[UntoHim]

Why would Trapped want to stop listening to sermons? Trapped is a Christian and believes in the God of the Bible. As others have pointed out, we all have to exercise discernment (and even a little common sense) when accepting the teachings of any man.

Originally Posted by Trapped

One of the sermons I heard said that if you are a person who cannot forgive others, then you don't understand the depth you've been forgiven by God. Maybe you don't think you're that bad and need forgiveness, and if that's the case then you should be scared to death.

I don't know who was giving the sermon and the overall context of this quote, but it is absolutely biblical and absolutely good advise!

Originally Posted by Trapped

But as far as the awareness of my dirt and sin or my need of forgiveness, I don't have that much. Even the thought that "my sin put the Lord on the cross".....well, I sin because I was born with the sin nature, none of us are immune, so since it's not something I had any power to prevent why should I whip myself over it?

Thank's for your frankness and honesty. I believe a lot of Christians feel the same way, especially those who have been raised in, or spent many years in, groups like the Local Church of Witness Lee, where the Gospel has been either diluted, corrupted or just flat out changed. You see, the exposing and condemnation of sin is only a part of the Gospel, and if we stop at the exposing and condemnation of sin, we are selling God and what the Gospel offers terribly short.

Let me give a quick example of what I mean - We are all very familiar with the story of "The Woman at the Well" in John 4. The Lord Jesus did not instantly rip into the women about her having 5 husbands. What He did do was to offer her the ultimate gift of living water that she may have eternal life. Only after offering the woman the living water did the Lord Jesus ask her to "go, call your husband, and come here". This comports perfectly with what Jesus told Nicodemus in the previous chapter - "For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him." (John 3:17)

Actually the Lord Jesus was not sent by the Father to judge and condemn, (although he will eventually judge and condemn mightily at the Judgement) and he does not currently stand at the right hand of the Father to judge and condemn those who belong to him, rather he stands as a "merciful and faithful high priest" (Heb 2:17) and "the author and perfecter of our faith" (Heb 12:2). There is much more to say of course, however I believe that some of us (me included) have a tendency to not keep our eyes on the message of the full and complete Gospel.

Trapped, you have a good and honest heart! God will always honor this if you put your faith in him and his Word. I'll leave you with one more great verse in Hebrews - But without faith it is impossible to please him. For he that draws near to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them who seek him out. (Heb 11:6 Darby)
-

[Nell]

Hi Trapped,

After I read your posts #16 and #20, I thought of this old, beloved hymn, "Just as I Am". Your posts might "inspire" the thought "Just as I am, warts and all."

I think every Christian is blessed to come to the place where they can write what you did. I think the Lord has you right where He wants you!

Blessings to you Trapped--
Nell



Original Lyrics from Charlotte Elliot, 1835
Just as I am - without one plea,
But that Thy blood was shed for me,
And that Thou bidst me come to Thee,
-O Lamb of God, I come!

Just as I am - and waiting not
To rid my soul of one dark blot,
To Thee, whose blood can cleanse each spot,
-O Lamb of God, I come!

Just as I am - though toss'd about
With many a conflict, many a doubt,
Fightings and fears within, without,
-O Lamb of God, I come!

Just as I am - poor, wretched, blind;
Sight, riches, healing of the mind,
Yea, all I need, in Thee to find,
-O Lamb of God, I come!

Just as I am - Thou wilt receive,
Wilt welcome, pardon, cleanse, relieve;
Because Thy promise I believe,
-O Lamb of God, I come!

Just as I am - Thy love unknown
Has broken every barrier down;
Now to be Thine, yea, Thine alone,
-O Lamb of God, I come!

Just as I am - of that free love
The breadth, length, depth, and height to prove
Here for a season, then above,
-O Lamb of God, I come

[Trapped]

awareness and HERn, I should have included more of the surrounding sermon for better context but was trying to save space. In short, the pastor spoke of Colossians 3:12-13, which says "....as the Lord has forgiven you, so you also must forgive."

The scripture is saying you must forgive, in the same way the Lord has forgiven you. It's essentially a command. This is why if you refuse to forgive, you either don't understand the depth of the Lord's free gift of forgiveness ("as the Lord has forgiven you") and must not think you are that bad, or, you do understand it but in refusing to forgive you are disobeying a command from the Lord, and are thus rebelling against Him. Either way.....whether you think you are pretty good, or are disobeying God, neither is a place you should be comfortable in. I have to agree, even though I'm in one of those places and worryingly comfortable.

He talked about the difference between letting someone off the hook but their sin is still on your "mental account" versus actual Biblical forgiveness where you don't take revenge, you forgive completely, and you forgive repeatedly. All of which come at a price! I am VERY much a "mental account" type of person who doesn't want to pay the additional price on top of being wronged of forgiving completely and repeatedly without revenge.

There was a lot more but I'll say this one other thing. He mentioned that Joseph (of the coat of many colors) was able to forgive his brothers for selling him into slavery because he trusted in God's sovereignty. Genesis 50:20 "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive." That's a very hard one for me because I just don't trust that God's sovereignty is ever going to work out well for me, and I mean EVER. This ties back to God and His heart for me being misrepresented to me for decades in the local churches, but has also seemed to play out in my life oftentimes too. It's difficult to trust in God's sovereignty when things don't go well or when you are suffering. Let me rephrase - it's not difficult to trust that God is still sovereign and over all even in the midst of my suffering.....but it IS VERY difficult to trust that God in His sovereignty cares at all or will ever use it for actual good that will comfort or remotely work out well for me, and that He isn't just watching it all play out with an unfeeling heart, and doesn't care to use it in ways that won't absolutely gut or knife me and send me reeling for months or years.

[Trapped]

Ohio, thanks for sharing about Job. It's been a long time since I've read anything from the book of Job; I will get into it again.

I do very much feel like a victim in my particular circumstance at the moment of having been repeatedly backstabbed by saints I cared very much about (to the point that even my life was related to the cadence of their life) and who have even come to the point of blaming me for being hurt by, thoroughly bewildered by, and not able to immediately get over their utterly betraying actions. But I also have to admit I am a self-righteous victim who doesn't see or won't admit that I've offended and hurt others who forgave me....I come from the perspective of thinking I'm just this pure lamb who everyone hurts. I guess it's a log/speck thing where I'm blind to my own faults.

Because of the portion that says to bless your enemies, I have in tears (anger tears, if there is such a thing) made myself pray several times, "Lord, bless [saint 1] and [saint 2]." Nothing in me wants them to be blessed. NOTHING. On the contrary, I want them to suffer loss. It does help soften me in the moment, yes. But then I get hung up on looking for results, like "Okay, Lord, I did the impossible thing of praying for You to bless them, now what? What are You going to do? Now how are You going to reconcile the situation?" and I don't have the patience to wait for progress or a change that may never come, and so I get discouraged.

I need the Lord's forgiveness.

UntoHim, I Googled "born sinful so why feel guilty" last night and came across an example that helped me. If there is a gardener working on someone's property, and the owner comes out and says "Hey, don't go near that gigantic pit over there or you may fall in and it is impossible to get out", but the gardener runs over and jumps right in that pit and cannot get out, well, that was his fault and the gardener is accountable for his action.

If we replace the gardener with a pregnant woman, and the woman has her baby while in the pit, the child didn't do anything of his own accord to end up in the pit....he was just born in the pit. But because of that he needs to be saved out of the pit!!! To circle back to your post, the Lord doesn't come to judge and condemn those "born in the pit"....He comes to save them.

This may sound totally basic but understand that I was loaded with vastly premature knowledge (and possibly wrong knowledge in some areas, I am now starting to realize) at a young age and could roll spiritual sounding phrases off my tongue like nobody's business even though it all never meant anything to me. The flavor of Witness Lee perfused through every word just never clicked with my palate and basic concepts like this finally landing in my ears through a non-WL megaphone are revelationary.

Nell, as I read the hymn, I was reminded of a phrase that I think Ron Kangas used to say, which is "just be who you are until you are different." In a sense that is a little freeing, but in another sense I ended up using it as an excuse to both remain in and excuse my condition. "Just as I am" recognizes that our condition is not a positive one but that God receives us anyway. Much better!

The Lord may have me where He wants me but man, is it hard to be at rest when you don't know where He's taking you!!!

[byHismercy]

Trapped, don't forget, your Lord is the One who posesses all authority in heaven, and all authority in earth. They were given Him that day He chose to die rather than allow you to suffer the cost for your sin. He is filled with power. I know you know your guilt of sin because you use the word cringeworthy as you have shared and bared your condition here. Jesus doesn't want you to beat yourself up for your sin either. He chose to receive your lashes upon His own flesh. He is filled with mercy and compassion for YOU. You can ask Him for anything you lack. He was tried with temptation as a man so He could understand and have compassion for us.

Just tell Him everything, and ask Him anything. Tell Him, Lord, I don't think I am that bad, that sinful! Shine Your light on all hidden things of darkness, Lord. Tell Him, Lord, I want to keep an account of the wrongs done me. What do You want, Lord? If you think you might be lukewarm, confess this too. Ask Him to give you a burning heart, hot for Him. I pray for this whenever I sense lukewarmness in myself. Just talk to Him. I know His compassion is a deep well for us. He promised to never leave you alone, Trapped! That means you are not alone in this life! You are not alone in your condition, either....

byHismercy

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Trapped

awareness and HERnGenesis 50:20 "As for you, you meant evil against me, but God meant it for good in order to bring about this present result, to preserve many people alive." That's a very hard one for me because I just don't trust that God's sovereignty is ever going to work out well for me, and I mean EVER. This ties back to God and His heart for me being misrepresented to me for decades in the local churches, but has also seemed to play out in my life oftentimes too. It's difficult to trust in God's sovereignty when things don't go well or when you are suffering. Let me rephrase - it's not difficult to trust that God is still sovereign and over all even in the midst of my suffering.....but it IS VERY difficult to trust that God in His sovereignty cares at all or will ever use it for actual good that will comfort or remotely work out well for me, and that He isn't just watching it all play out with an unfeeling heart, and doesn't care to use it in ways that won't absolutely gut or knife me and send me reeling for months or years.

But, Trapped, I have to say, coming from my own sad and distasteful experience with the Local Church, that I see His sovereign hand working over your life......did He not remove you from a deception you may not have been aware of? Would you not rather know the truth, even if it was a painful lesson to learn? I am so grateful Jesus kept my children from being indoctrinated into lies, and, moreover, they will always know to be watchful of erring doctrine, because we talk about that now. Watching out for deception is 'on our radar' now in a way it never was before. All for the experience we suffered through, being deceived by the Lee ministry. So much good is coming from this negative experience. We can praise Him for loving us so much, He would not allow us to remain in any deception...and who knows how He will use this walking forward? My favorite ministers are the precious saints who have come out of their own veil to Christ alone. Some ones the Lord ministers to me through the most are those coming out of SDA, Mormonism, Jehovahs Witness....who have come back to the simple trust in Christ and His word. You may not see what a mercy this is, yet.

Satan wants to convince you that God doesn't love you, folks better off without knowing you, etc. It's a lie. Don't receive it from the enemy, brother. Tell Jesus, You love me unto Your own death on the cross, Lord. Choose to believe what He speaks to you through His word. You can reject the negative thoughts the enemy would have you believe into. Tell Jesus you reject them. If you resist Satan, he flees. God bless you with fresh eyes for His word, His truth, and His love for you, Trapped.

byHismercy

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I realized that I don't actually have much awareness or experience of the Lord forgiving me, and as I pondered further I realized that I shockingly don't think I need much forgiveness.

I know just how puffed-up all that sounds, and as I type it I do feel a little ashamed at how dismissive I am being of what I mentally know is the great gift of the Lord's forgiveness......but if I'm not honest then its harder to get the right kind of help.

Originally Posted by Trapped

I am fully on board with your cringing at my post. I know how arrogant and blind it sounds.

I think I'm making the cringing worse and frankly kind of feel like I'm Pharoah typing with a hardened heart, but again, I have to be transparent here in case anyone who understands can give any advice or experience that would help.

Trapped, you remind me more of Job than Pharoah, in fact, the Pharoah comment seems unwarranted. One of the key features of Job was not just his intense loss and suffering, but how his friends and community completely turned on him believing that his misfortunes resulted from some hidden sin and his unwillingness to repent. Since Job was cognizant of no known sin, he refused to repent in order to appease them, which would then make him a liar and a man-pleaser.

Yet in his attempts to communicate his uprightness of heart and exemplary walk, he did approach self-righteousness at times, not recognizing God's ultimate position and authority over all creation. Many lessons were taught in this book, not just for the chief of sinners (more like myself), but also for good and honorable men, perhaps like yourself. What hurt Job the most was how mistreated he was, and what humbled him was knowing God.

All of us must surrender and be humbled by the mercy of God. For example, I visited a small country church yesterday. The minister at one point commented that he was saved by the Lord from a horrible life of drugs, drinking, and crime. Since I didn't know him, I assumed that was his life before salvation. Soon in his message I realized that he never participated in that lifestyle, but still was forever grateful to the Lord that he was not.

Trapped, like Job you have been hurt by others. "And the Lord restored Job completely when he prayed for his friends." -- Job 42.10

[BlueOrchid]

Hi all,
Was doing some lurking and had to log back in to share relating to this post.
I posted on this forum earlier this year then never did again because I didn't feel I had anything to say. I came back to reply to this post
Trapped, hi. I really resonate with your heart and what you have expressed in this post.

I used to be in a similar place.

I fell into a deep depression after learning the truth. In a way I mourned for my young self when I thought I had it all together. I was so proud and religious, and thought I was better than a lot of people, despite my self esteem was awful!
I was so envious of those who had it together, those who knew their purpose, and those who knew what their calling was in the Kingdom of God. I felt so isolated because the beliefs I had held onto as part of myself were isolating me from forming real relationships in the body of Christ.

I believe that followers of Jesus Christ are all over the earth and not in a building. I do not meet in any building. I believe that we all have a throne in our hearts, and Jesus is on the throne in my heart. I believe the abomination of desolation is when anything other than Jesus Christ is on the throne of our hearts, claiming to be God. There are so many distractions and so many seemingly "good" things that want to take the throne in our hearts. But false light is still false light.

I knew that I was listening to false light because I did not have peace... I knew there were things in my life that were wrong and it was so depressing to me because I couldn't change it no matter how much I tried. It really solidified the fact that we cannot add our own righteousness to the righteousness of God.

A series of events that happened this year caused me to get more and more desperate for being right with God and more intimate than I ever had been, even as a child.
I had the feeling to get baptized. No one there to baptize me, so I asked Jesus to baptize me in spirit, in the bathtub! After I kept praying, I was really yearning to be fully filled with the Holy Spirit. Being filled to the brim with the Holy Spirit is our escape from temptation. Although when we are first saved and have an initial Infilling of the Holy Spirit it's not the fullness of what God wants to give us. And I was so depressed I knew I needed this!!!

But nothing was working so I started fasting. On the second day of my fast I received the baptism of the Holy Spirit!!! And it was the most amazing experience. Once you literally feel how much God loves you it erases every doubt and gives you an amazing hope.

I was reading on here once and someone had commented how Witness Lee was not for the Holy Spirit baptism and speaking in tongues, but it was a different way of contacting The Lord through pray reading, etc. Well at that point I thought, I am doing the opposite!!
I have a friend who was baptized in the Holy Spirit and spoke in tongues when she was a young child. I did some more research... Anyhow this was in and around the time I had gotten baptized and was seeking the gift of the Holy Spirit.

I did end up getting the gift of speaking in tongues. Praying in the spirit. Prayer language. Whatever you want to call it. I got it 3 days later!! During my fast I had some manifestations. It showed me there were things in my life that needed to get broken off and it didn't happen until I humbled myself and cried out to God and didn't hold anything back. I believe I wouldn't have been able to experience the spiritual war that was happening within me if I hadn't have fasted. I was so desperate I didn't want to eat anyway.

I ended up being extremely sick on the 5th day but I broke my fast after that and had peace doing so. I believe when the strongholds were broken spiritually it manifested physically and those ugly roots planted in me even before I was born got ripped out!!!

I was finally able to have the faith and hope that God wanted to bless me and be there for me And it really helps when I am feeling down. I still have ups and downs and still get discouraged but I can actually "pray through" those feelings and then just be surrounded by the most amazing peace. Jesus is the Prince of Peace <3 and now have the spiritual "juice" to pray and labor for others in the spirit, it's seriously the best thing in my life!!!

Thank you Father in Heaven, King of Kings, Lord of Lords, thank you Jesus, Holy Spirit of God, my beautiful, Holy Creator<3 I bless you with all that I am!

I can share more if you want me to... I could go on and on and on. Maybe this is meant for a different thread, but I don't want all the attention on me. I just want you to know I am praying for you and I understand where you are coming from. I was once there. And we don't have to feel like we are on islands all by ourselves! There is hope even and especially when you least expect it.

God bless you with His beautiful joy and merriness and goodness and peace and love!!!
<3 BlueOrchid

Ps my username comes from the song "Blue Orchid" from the album Get Behind Me Satan by the White Stripes. I love this song!! I listened to it a lot when I was grieving and angry. Give it a listen. It's dubbed my church life/dark era of my life song. I'm not blue anymore tho

[Drake]

Originally Posted by BlueOrchid

... those ugly roots planted in me even before I was born got ripped out!!

Blue,

I don’t understand what you mean by the above. It may require a separate thread but before we jump to that conclusion perhaps you could just clarify what you meant.

I can find no scriptural support for it so perhaps you were just overcome by the ecstasy of glossia when you typed that statement.

Thanks
Drake

[BlueOrchid]

Originally Posted by Drake

Blue,

I don’t understand what you mean by the above. It may require a separate thread but before we jump to that conclusion perhaps you could just clarify what you meant.

I can find no scriptural support for it so perhaps you were just overcome by the ecstasy of glossia when you typed that statement.

Thanks
Drake

Look up Deuteronomy 28. Blessings and or curses fall down the family line. If your family is involved with certain sins up the line it can impact you today.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by BlueOrchid

Look up Deuteronomy 28. Blessings and or curses fall down the family line. If your family is involved with certain sins up the line it can impact you today.

I see. You’re saying that at some point in your Christian experience you sensed that you were rescued from a negative family history that had been passed down..... the very roots of that negative inheritance being pulled out in your experience.

You were not suggesting that the sin nature you were born was removed. If so, we should take that up in a new thread.

Drake