Different weights and measures

[aron]

Originally Posted by least

Seems to fit what Evangelical said:
It's called the practice of the Nicolaitans which Jesus said he hates. (Revelation 2:6).

"When others do it, it's the practice of the Nicolaitans which the Lord Jesus said He hates. But when we do it, it's not the practice of the Nicolaitans." ~FTT trainer in Taipei during the New Way, circa 1989.

The spirit behind the ministry of Witness Lee, now propagated in the LSM-affiliated local churches, cannot exist on this earth, except by judging others with a measuring stick it refuses to put on itself.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You believe in the "God doesn't see division" heresy, I presume. Well everyone else can see it, God is blind?

This kind of thinking flies in the face of Lee's teaching that God sees no iniquity in the church. Of course Lee was only speaking of his church, the "proper church". All other expressions of Christian faith were abominable. Dark, satanic, devilish, we all heard the words, over and over. And we delighted in examining their faults, in great detail.

Again, we see God's word sanctimoniously waved in the air, as if it were immutable, only to be forgotten as soon as the "other" is considered. Suddenly it's a whole new ballgame, with completely new rules.

[aron]

Leviticus 19:35-36

'You shall do no wrong in judgment, in measurement of weight, or capacity. 'You shall have just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin; I am the LORD your God, who brought you out from the land of Egypt."

Deuteronomy 25:13-16

"You shall not have in your bag differing weights, a large and a small. "You shall not have in your house differing measures, a large and a small. "You shall have a full and just weight; you shall have a full and just measure, that your days may be prolonged in the land which the LORD your God gives you"

Amos 8:4-6

Hear this, you who trample the needy, to do away with the humble of the land, saying, "When will the new moon be over, So that we may sell grain, And the sabbath, that we may open the wheat market, To make the bushel smaller and the shekel bigger, And to cheat with dishonest scales, So as to buy the helpless for money And the needy for a pair of sandals, And that we may sell the refuse of the wheat?"

Hosea 12:7-8

A merchant, in whose hands are false balances, He loves to oppress. And Ephraim said, "Surely I have become rich, I have found wealth for myself; In all my labors they will find in me No iniquity, which would be sin."

Micah 6:10-13

"Is there yet a man in the wicked house, Along with treasures of wickedness And a short measure that is cursed? "Can I justify wicked scales And a bag of deceptive weights?"

Proverbs 20:10

Differing weights and differing measures, Both of them are abominable to the LORD.

Proverbs 11:1

A false balance is an abomination to the LORD, But a just weight is His delight.

Proverbs 16:11

A just balance and scales belong to the LORD; All the weights of the bag are His concern.

Proverbs 20:23

Differing weights are an abomination to the LORD, And a false scale is not good.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

aron,

The irony of your last two notes confirms what I observed before. You want it both ways.

On the one hand, you refuse to condemn the in your face IDOLATRY in the Catholic Church and the Lutheran Church for by doing so, according to your own words, you would condemn yourself because you are not perfect.

On the other hand you brazenly condemn what you characterize as idolatry in the local churches because apparently you are perfect after all.

And the duck liver pate that tops the irony all off is your question "Whatever happened to, "Consider others more highly than youself"? "

No. What I do here is point out the irony of a ministry that lives by condemnation, and separation, then wipes its mouth and says, "We did no wrong". By what you judge, you yourself are judged. Only God has the true weights.

Of course I'm imperfect. My only way out is to forgive, that God may forgive me. What I do to others will be done to me. I forgive the local churchers, and greet them in the street. The Mormons I do not. I actually DO draw a line, somewhere. I have to. But you draw a line around your toes, and say everyone outside it is in division, and harlotry. What kind of spirit is at work, here?

Proverbs 30:20 "This is the way of an adulterous woman: She eats and wipes her mouth and says, 'I've done nothing wrong.'

In God's eyes we're all adulterous. "There is not one pure; no not one." But if we confess and believe into the Lord Jesus, who is the pure, obedient Lamb of God, our sins are forgiven, and let go. God sees the blood of Jesus on the cross. Now, how to go on? By judgment, condemnation, incessant criticism? Or by bearing with one another, in spite of our many faults?

Paul wrote, "In which each was called, in this remain." Watchman Nee instead, after being called, headed for the exit, and built a new sheep pen where his own rules of convenience were king; rules which applied differently to different people, like "Acting God" and "Drunken Noah" versus the "small potatoes". Suddenly we were respecters of persons. And rules changed as the needs on the ground changed. It wasn't a level playing field at all - first it was autonomy and local-ness, then it was consolidation and the "Jerusalem principle". Rules were found and waved in the air, to fit the needs and conveniences of the day. Then the next day they were forgotten, or contravened by new "truths".

Paul wrote, "Does the eye condemn the ear for being different?" But in the local church of Lee we all had to be "absolutely identical", with "no differences whatsoever", quote-unquote, because that made Witness Lee feel more secure. His comfort zone was increased if we all wore identical matching blazers and ties. In my "locality" we couldn't even give a conference using the wrong Witness Lee books. We were told, "Re-speak the latest conference", and to make sure everything was as in Anaheim, we were sent guides and helpers. Then they dunned us for the plane tickets.

But of course in the local church we don't have rules, do we? We're organic. No organization. Our training is just in "life" and "truth".

Uh-huh. Sure it is. "Each one does what is right in his own eyes." I am offering you a different set of eyes. Not God's eyes, I admit. But neither was Lee or Nee perfect. All of us are part of the many eyes. If you reject all but yours you become blind. So please, join the larger Christian conversation.

aron,

The irony is that you talk about forgiveness, understanding, and members of the Body all having their place. Then without skipping a beat you launch a tirade against the local churches accusing them of adultery and heresy and idolatry.

You probably don't realize it and may never because the offenses you mentioned and still apparently harbor that occurred in your patch decades ago have become part of your constitution molding and framing the way you think about those things, your perceptions, and how you rationalize your beliefs. In short, those offenses apparently were not dealt with and therefore, it is perfectly consistent in your mind to write about forgiving and yet not forgive, to teach that every member has its place and yet dismissing the place of the local churches and their members, to call for a heart for understanding yet exercising a spirit of judgement, condemnation, and incessant criticism to use your terms.

And yet the most obvious idolatry you will not condemn. You will not draw a line that condemns the idolatry in the Catholic Church, the Lutheran Church, and others like them.

Those are examples of your use of different weights and measures.

[UntoHim]

My friend Drake,

Not sure why you're so obsessed with the problems within the Catholic and Lutheran denominations, but the main theme of our forum is the teachings, practices and history of the Local Church of Witness Lee, and the founder, Watchman Nee. I understand why you would want to distract us from the main theme, but there are numerous Internet forums in which they would welcome discussions about all the problems in teaching, practice and history of these two sects/denominations/religions.

While I'm sure aron appreciates the free psychoanalysis you have provided, you're taking us off the beaten path my man. If you want to defend the teachings, practices and history of the Local Church(es), Go for it! Have at it! Knock yourself out! But don't drag the Catholic Church, the Lutheran Church or any other sect/denomination/religion into our discussions as an attempt to avoid/evade addressing the legitimate issues and concerns regarding Nee/Lee/Local Church/LSM etc.

Carry on.
-

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

This kind of thinking flies in the face of Lee's teaching that God sees no iniquity in the church. Of course Lee was only speaking of his church, the "proper church". All other expressions of Christian faith were abominable. Dark, satanic, devilish, we all heard the words, over and over. And we delighted in examining their faults, in great detail.

How could I ever forget him saying "poor, poor, Christianity." Must have heard that a thousand times.

Here's another verse.

Matthew 7.2

For with what judgment you judge, you shall be judged; and with what measure you mete, it shall be measured to you.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

aron,

The irony is that you talk about forgiveness, understanding, and members of the Body all having their place. Then without skipping a beat you launch a tirade against the local churches accusing them of adultery and heresy and idolatry.

You probably don't realize it and may never because the offenses you mentioned and still apparently harbor that occurred in your patch decades ago have become part of your constitution molding and framing the way you think about those things, your perceptions, and how you rationalize your beliefs. In short, those offenses apparently were not dealt with and therefore, it is perfectly consistent in your mind to write about forgiving and yet not forgive, to teach that every member has its place and yet dismissing the place of the local churches and their members, to call for a heart for understanding yet exercising a spirit of judgement, condemnation, and incessant criticism to use your terms.

And yet the most obvious idolatry you will not condemn. You will not draw a line that condemns the idolatry in the Catholic Church, the Lutheran Church, and others like them.

Those are examples of your use of different weights and measures.

To follow up with Drake's "logic" here, think about how Witness Lee harbored offenses against those in Christianity for 70 years after he left those poor people. Then he told myriads of us "moo cows" again and again just how pitiful they all were in almost every one of his messages.

[Ohio]

Before we hear any more about idolatry, can we please have a definition of idols/idolatry, or at least some guidelines.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

LSM does not "need it so badly" as you suggest. CRI and the Christian community were wrong, and that was more or less their admission of guilt for lying and slandering the local churches, hence the title "we were wrong".

And yet when Lee said "we were wrong" regarding receiving the brothers, that can be ignored? Why so selective?

CRI's admission of malfeasance was reprinted and passed to every local church. Witness Lee's admission of malfeasance was. . . buried? Along with him?

And I still don't get why CRI's imprimatur is pulled out of the drawer, whether or not the conversation included it, as verification of LSM/LC orthodox credibility, when CRI's receiving other Christian groups as also credible, genuine, legitimate corporate expressions of NT Christian faith is stubbornly ignored. Why does approval work only when it's in your direction? That simply makes no sense.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Drake

aron,

The irony is that you talk about forgiveness, understanding, and members of the Body all having their place. Then without skipping a beat you launch a tirade against the local churches accusing them of adultery and heresy and idolatry. .

Okay, mea culpa. I didn't define adultery - "having another spouse". We were betrothed to Christ, now we get betrothed to Christ and the church, and the ministry, and the high peak "vision of the age." God recedes further and further away. Just like in the RCC. Jesus is a statue in the corner, or a baby sitting on Mommy's lap (you know that one - the Mother of God.) Christ in the LC is whatever the Oracle needs it to be today. We never got the "Baby Jesus" but we got pretty much every other variation, and 'flavor'.

Heresy. I don't think I ever called the LC heretical. Sorry, you misunderstand me. I have issues with the "deification" idea as a matter of truth, per se. It's too speculative, and distracts the weak ones. No, better stick to "love your neighbor as yourself" and let the theologians (quietly) sort through the deification idea. But I didn't call it, or Witness Lee, heretical. If I ever wrote that, I don't remember, and would apologize for the mis-step.

Idolatry. "Little children, guard yourselves against idols". What is an idol? A false god. Made in our own images, or something nearly so, according to our own imaginations and fears. When John wrote, "Little children, guard yourselves from idols" I don't think he meant literal graven images. I daresay the 1st century Christians were too sophisticated for that. Plus Jewish practice was there, already suppressing that kind of behavior. No, John was referencing the subtle one, slipping little 'near-god' things in, good things, attractive things. The LC of Lee is rife with that stuff.

I'll give you one: "The Age of Spiritual Giants is over, it's the Age of Small Potatoes". That's what one of the current Blendeds said to us, post-Lee. To make an age center around the person of a fellow sinner is idolatrous.

Originally Posted by Drake

You probably don't realize it and may never because the offenses you mentioned and still apparently harbor that occurred in your patch decades ago have become part of your constitution molding and framing the way you think about those things, your perceptions, and how you rationalize your beliefs. In short, those offenses apparently were not dealt with and therefore, it is perfectly consistent in your mind to write about forgiving and yet not forgive, to teach that every member has its place and yet dismissing the place of the local churches and their members, to call for a heart for understanding yet exercising a spirit of judgement, condemnation, and incessant criticism to use your terms.

And yet the most obvious idolatry you will not condemn. You will not draw a line that condemns the idolatry in the Catholic Church, the Lutheran Church, and others like them.

Those are examples of your use of different weights and measures.

Yes, those offenses were probably not dealt with, and I apologize for wracking yourself, Evangelical, and all our dear readers through the mud of mine own making. But my theme consistently has been that Watchman Nee and Witness Lee did the same thing - projected all their unresolved fears onto the larger population, and dragged them hither and yon. Local Church culture was just as bad as the culture condemned everywhere else. Just as natural. Just as fallen. Look at the fruit! Turmoils, storms, rebellions.

I do apologize for my failures, and my accompanying "bitter spirit", and forgive WN and WL for theirs. Thankfully nobody has anointed me the Apostle of the Age and created a movement to follow me. Then we'd all be in big trouble! Things are bad enough, already.

BTW I have no trouble condemning the obvious idolatry. Yet I still receive the believers. And it's the subtle idolatry we really need to guard against. That's the most pernicious of all.

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

And yet when Lee said "we were wrong" regarding receiving the brothers, that can be ignored? Why so selective?

CRI's admission of malfeasance was reprinted and passed to every local church. Witness Lee's admission of malfeasance was. . . buried? Along with him?

And I still don't get why CRI's imprimatur is pulled out of the drawer, whether or not the conversation included it, as verification of LSM/LC orthodox credibility, when CRI's receiving other Christian groups as also credible, genuine, legitimate corporate expressions of NT Christian faith is stubbornly ignored. Why does approval work only when it's in your direction? That simply makes no sense.

Well, when someone does a 6 year research study on "Lee's repentance" I guess you can call that "even".

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Well, when someone does a 6 year research study on "Lee's repentance" I guess you can call that "even".

19 years have passed. Has anyone begun? Or are we still completely unbalanced?

(BTW, thank you for the consideration of my thoughts. And Drake, as well.)

Why is it that in the LC we can "affirm and critique" everything else, but no one can affirm and critique the ministry of Lee? Why is critique of Lee (or his Blendeds) considered as slander or rebellion? How would you feel if Lee's thoughts were deemed "twisted" or "natural" or "dark", as he was so quick to assess others?

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Well, when someone does a 6 year research study on "Lee's repentance" I guess you can call that "even".

As far as research into Witness Lee's PUBLIC repentance, it wouldn't take but 6 seconds...because he never made one.

All that Local Church blurb about his "painful repentance" means nothing. For 50+ years the man railed against his brothers and sisters in the Body of Christ in the most sharpest and specific manner possible. And then, at the very end, he comes out with the weakest, dullest, most unspecific "apology" one could imagine. It was worse than inadequate, it was pathetic.

And to make matters worse, this supposed "repentance" was made in Chinese. Sorry, but the offenses here in America (the vast majority of his speaking the last 30 years) were in English - he should have made the public repentance/apology in English.

Weigh and measure these facts as you wish.

-

[aron]

Why is it so catastrophic for the shoe to get put on the other foot?

[Evangelical]

Originally Posted by aron

"When others do it, it's the practice of the Nicolaitans which the Lord Jesus said He hates. But when we do it, it's not the practice of the Nicolaitans." ~FTT trainer in Taipei during the New Way, circa 1989.

The spirit behind the ministry of Witness Lee, now propagated in the LSM-affiliated local churches, cannot exist on this earth, except by judging others with a measuring stick it refuses to put on itself.

Where is that quote from 1989 from? Is it written anywhere?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Where is that quote from 1989 from? Is it written anywhere?

Sorry, the quote was from 1986. The source is John Ingalls. He said there were a number of witnesses to confirm it.

Originally Posted by John Ingalls

Speaking the Truth in Love
In addition we began to hear reports, see video tapes, and read printed messages published by the Full-time Training in Taipei of some of the things that were being said and done. Now this really alarmed us. Foremost among these was the fact that Philip Lee was the administrator of the training, supposedly only on the business side, but actually exercising supervision in much more than business affairs. He was in daily fellowship with twenty-four of the trainers and leading ones who called and reported to him all activities (failure to do so resulted in an offense). The trainees were even told that Philip was administrating the training. His power and position were growing immeasurably.

Statements made by some of the trainers in Taipei amazed us, as I am sure they did many others. Some examples are as follows:

1) “There is no need to pray about what to do; just follow the ministry.”
2) We don’t even need to think; we just do what we are told.”
3) “Follow Witness Lee blindly. Even if he’s wrong, he’s right.”
4) “If you leave the training, you’ll miss the kingdom.”
5) Our burden is to pick up Brother Lee’s teaching and way to make us all Witness Lees, like a Witness Lee duplication center.”
6) “To be one with the ministry is to be one with Brother Lee, the office, and Philip Lee.”
7) Since Christianity is in ruins, the Lord raised up the recovery; since the recovery is in ruins, the Lord raised up the FTTT.

An account of Brother Lee’s position was given by one of the leading trainers of the FTTT to a group of brothers in Dallas, Texas, in the summer of 1986, in the context of how to be one with the ministry. There are witnesses to confirm it. It goes as follows.

“The Father is number one, the Son is number two, the Spirit is number three, and Witness Lee is number four; and then there are those who are with Witness Lee.” A brother asked, “And who is number five”? The trainer replied, “It is not yet quite clear who number five is”, but pointing out “You brothers do not have access to brother Lee. I and another trainer do. We can walk into brother Lee’s apartment any time and have breakfast with him. The way to know what brother Lee wants us to do is to be in contact with those who have access to him. They will tell you what he wants you to do.” The hosting brother asked, “Isn’t this a hierarchy?” The trainer replied, ”No!” The brother asked, “How then does this differ from what we’ve been condemning?” The trainer answered, “If the elders in a local church would practice in this way to carry out their burden, it would be a hierarchy; but if this is practiced to carry out the ministry’s burden, it is not a hierarchy.”

When Brother Lee heard through us the above speech of his trainer, he took steps to rebuke and correct him. That such nonsense could be spoken by one chosen by Brother Lee to lead his training after all we have passed through and heard from Brother Lee’s ministry is difficult to understand.

Many aspects of the training bothered us considerably. Elders who attended the training in Taipei were instructed explicitly to carry out the same training in their localities. Pressure was exerted upon the churches and elders to follow, implement, and conform to everything that came out in Taiwan. Failure to do so created problems. The effect on so much emphasis on ways, methods, and practices – all externals – resulted in a wilted wilderness condition among many of the saints.

Many faithful older saints were rebuked and given the impression that because of their age they were through. All official assertions to the contrary, the full-timers became a special class of people, and the full-time training was exalted above the churches, which were considered to have grown decrepit and were at best “better than nothing” (Andrew Yu, in Voice of the Young Heart). The elders were publicly degraded and blamed for all the ills. And yet the churches with the elders, and especially many of the older saints who were somewhat despised, gave generously and sacrificially to support the training. Their money was gladly accepted. In fact some of the churches were drained financially due to the heavy burden of supporting their full-timers and other projects that were promoted.

Video tapes of the FTTT convention on Nov. 23, 1986, and the FTTT graduation ceremony on June 1, 1987, surprised us with the mixture of worldly ways and gimmicks that were practiced and hitherto strongly condemned among us…

I have no relish in mentioning these things. My object is to record and inform the readers of the matters that burdened and concerned us in the fall of 1987.

Now, in all fairness it does say that when Witness Lee heard such things were being spoken, he took steps to correct them. But my question here has been, why could no one correct Witness Lee? Why is it that he sent out, again and again, various visions, flows, and moves, which resulted in turmoil, confusion, discouragement, and divisions among the flock, and the problem was always deemed overzealous and semi-rogue lieutenants? The "Young Galileans Affair" also comes to mind. Lee would whip up the troops, and when the dust settled, the mess was always someone else's fault.

Yet you can hardly read one ministry message without repeated references to "most Christians don't understand this and that" and "very few Christians know Christ in this or that way". Why is it impossible to imagine that Lee himself missed some experience of Christ, or lacked understanding, or was veiled in some way? Why is it impossible to put the shoe on the other foot?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Indiana

The Defect

Brother Lee once shared that some men or women of God in the past had defects. Yet, they were still used by God. He gave certain examples.

Samuel Chang once described a defect in Brother Lee himself and warned of it (1966); but he did not discount Witness Lee or his ministry, at that time.

Samuel Chang to Don Hardy

“SC was very burdened and started groaning deep within, praying. Then he said: "Don, I want to share something with you for prayer, and you must keep it to yourself. Brother Lee loves the Lord, and is all-out for God and His recovery. But Don, he has a weakness, a big hole in his side, which we have to keep covered much in prayer. You see, his children (7 of them) suffered very much in China, and they are always after him; and he has a burden to help them as much as he can. But WL is very poor right now. So he has tried to help Timothy in business, but....." Then SC did a strange thing, he slapped his mouth with his hand, and told me, "Oh, I should keep quiet. Forgive me brother Don, just pray.”

When Daystar happened in the early seventies, the defect was manifest and began the decline of the churches in the U. S.

Why is it that we were encouraged to publicly point out the defects of "fallen Christianity", including prominent leaders, even Biblical ones, but Witness Lee had to be "covered"?

Because Witness Lee was "today's Paul", and was God's Avatar? Deputy God?

The seemingly positive thing that happens with this mindset is that order is clearly established. Know who is the Big Boss in the Room, and get in line. Everybody finds their place according to their relative position to the Lodestone, God's Man (or Woman) of the hour(s). This is of course attractive to our fallen human dispositions, who like order, and structure. We equate this with peace. But it is not. True peace abides.

The problem with this idea is, what if the Man or Woman of the hour(s) is a fellow sinner? Eventually, peace will be taken away. Thus, the incessant "storms, turmoils, rebellions" following this man and his ministry. Yet we are by definition precluded from objectively examining the teachings, understandings, and shared values which support this societal "cosmos", or arrangement. "I'm proud to be an ostrich with my head stuck in the sand!" was how one of the Anaheim elders put it, as a turmoil was wracking the assembly there.

[aron]

Jan. 22, 1989

Dear Brothers,

Having participated in the church-life and in elder’s fellowships with some of you for over fifteen years, I trust that something has been built up between us, and that this fellowship can be received in love and sincerity.
My concern for the present situation among us has become very heavy. The aspects which I list here as THE TRUTH are some of the factors which won my heart to give the past eighteen years of my life to the recovery. All of them were at some time declared and held among us. My observation is that while we may still be speaking these truths our present practice has sadly drifted. I have visited many churches in four continents during the past two years, and my decision to share these matters has come after more than one year of considering and praying about them. It seems to me that unless the Lord could have much mercy and rescue us, we have very little ground for considering ourselves other than a poor denomination.

I recognize that I owe a great debt to the recovery and have received much light and help from Bro. Lee. I feel I must however, be faithful to express what I see; in the fear of the Lord, but without fear or favor of man.
Please consider these matters soberly and objectively before the Lord.

THE TRUTH vs OUR PRESENT PRACTICE

1. The WORD is our only supreme authority. All the saints should be encouraged to love it and to feel free to seek life and light from it, and to gain skill in handling and interpreting it.

OUR PRACTICE: The Word should be read in the Recovery Version and can be understood properly only with the use of the foot-notes and life-studies. No one would dare to suggest another view, nor could anyone see light beyond what has been given by “the ministry.”

2. The MINISTRY is the dispensing of Christ into His saints for the building up of the church. All who minister life and the revelation of God’s New Testament economy are ministers and have a part in this ministry.

OUR PRACTICE: In our present vocabulary and practice the “ministry” is Witness Lee and whatever he has written or says, and the way he says it. Anything written or spoken by another person, especially if he is not in the “recovery” is “old” or taking us backward.

3. SPIRITUAL AUTHORITY is endowed upon a person by the Lord. It will be perceived and realized in the saints and substantiated by the Lord. “We should never say so much as one word on behalf of our own authority; rather let us give people the liberty. The more God entrusts to us, the more liberty we grant people.” Spiritual Authority by W. Nee, p. 121

OUR PRACTICE: In nearly every conference or training we observe a declaration of authority. Old Testament cases of disobedience are cited, death and negativism are ascribed to any who do not agree and respond positively. Is this not an insidious form of control?

4. THE CHURCH ground implies that we are open to receive and accept all genuine believers. We should not demand certain practices or separate those who have a different feeling about matters not of the “faith.”

OUR PRACTICE: Those who have any reservation about any of our practices are “unclear”, “do not see the vision” and remain outsiders. Our ways are “God given” and our practices are, “God ordained.” This implicitly condemns all (those in the church or outside of it) who don’t fully embrace them. In this way we have thoroughly isolated ourselves from all other Christians.

5. Do not SEPARATE or make a distinction between the saints who may hold a different feeling about matters of form or practice.

OUR PRACTICE: Those who express reservations about the latest way or practice are regarded as “old”, “in death”, “negative”, “not clear”, “pouring cold water”, “blowing cold winds” and are set aside as far as the “Lord’s up-to-date move” is concerned.

6. There should be OPEN fellowship, in an atmosphere which allows all saints to “speak the truth in love.”

OUR PRACTICE: Speak about and report only the “positive.” Support whatever is being promoted, speak well of it, even inflate the statistics; meanwhile ignore any fact or evidence which shows a weakness or a failure. Of course in this way we never have a failure. Loyalty and blind approval is prized while objectivity and honesty are strongly disapproved. Whoever stays “positive”, and confirms everything is “in”, and is often elevated, while those who speak their genuine concern are regarded as “negative”, and “undermining” and soon privately and perhaps publicly condemned.

7. There should be no effort to ORGANIZE or UNIFY the churches.

OUR PRACTICE: Constant pressure is applied through trainings, videos, and slogans to push churches and saints to conform. Elders are belittled, as being “old”, “ambitious”, “big-speakers”, and “undermining”, if they do not bring their churches into conformity. LIFE LESSONS & TRUTH LESSONS are promoted as the only way to properly express the truth and help new believers.

(These are some of the aspects that caused me to leave the denomination years ago.)

8. Do not get involved in “HOW TO”, or in the promoting of ways. The natural always wants to know “how to.” This will only produce behavior and outward form. It is not the way of life. Life will issue from the abiding and this will produce organic fruit.

OUR PRACTICE: In recent months, messages and books are flooding us with “THE WAY TO…” There is a “way” and a “how to” given for whatever we do or say. The saints are learning now only how to behave but are put in the realm of policing others, especially the elders, so all freedom is lost.

9. The Lord’s GOAL IS THE CHURCH. Whatever we do must be for the building up of the church. The ministry exists not to build up itself but the local churches. “If God’s people could only see that the object of all ministry is the founding of local churches and not the grouping of Christians around any particular individual, truth, or experience or under any particular organization, then the forming of sects could be avoided. We who serve the Lord must be willing to let go our hold upon all those to whom we have ministered, and let the fruits of our ministry pass into local churches governed entirely by local men.” The Normal Christian Church Life by W. Nee, p 91.

OUR PRACTICE: There is very little time or energy for building up the local church. Time, money, and resources are constantly exhausted in order to defend, protect, supply, build up, and “meet the need” of the ministry by “serving the ministry in the ministry’s way.” Videos, conferences, trainings, and standing book orders have all become necessary to “keep current with the ministry.”

10. We MEET in the name of the Lord. All the saints have the freedom to share as the Spirit gives them utterance.

OUR PRACTICE: Everyone is measured by whether they speak “the ministry.” Truth Lessons, Life studies, and foot-notes are proper ways to speak or express anything. The safest way is just to read with little or no comment. Surely this is CONTROL, and must offend the headship of the One in whose name we meet.

In The Normal Christian Church Life, p. 92-93 Bro. Nee warns: “Whenever a special leader, or a specific doctrine, or some experience, or creed, or organization, becomes a center for drawing together the believers of different places, then because the center of such a church federation is other than Christ, it follows that its sphere will be other than local. And whenever the divinely-appointed sphere of locality is displaced by a sphere of human invention, there the divine approval cannot rest. The believers within such a sphere may truly love the Lord, but they have another center apart from Him, and it is only natural that the second center becomes the controlling one. It is contrary to human nature to stress what we have in common with others; we always emphasize what is ours in particular. Christ is the common center of all the churches, but any company of believers that have a leader, a doctrine, an experience, a creed, or an organization as their center of fellowship, will find that that center becomes the center, and it is that center by which they determine who belongs to them and who does not. The center always determines the sphere, and the second center creates a sphere which divides those who attach themselves to it from those who do not.”

“Anything that becomes a center to unite believers of different places will create a sphere which includes all believers who attach themselves to that center and excludes all who do not. This dividing line will destroy the God-appointed boundary of locality, and consequently destroy the very nature of the churches of God.”

Brothers I beg you, I plead with you, please consider objectively; is this not our case? Is this the reality of the vision that caught us, and is it still clear and pure? Is there a possibility that while we condemn, “poor Christianity”, that we are like Laodicea, saying, “I am rich…and do not know that we are…poor and blind…?

May the Lord find room in our hearts to extend His mercy, that we might repent. Perhaps we might be rescued and restored to His blessing.

Albert Zehr
Burnaby, B.C.,
Canada


My burden is to share points 5 and 6. This letter is from one who met for many years, in leadership positions, and who had years and years of observations, not only of the official pronouncements from the podium, and published material, but of what went on daily in actual practice. Customary practice, or behavior, in the local churches was that being negative toward all other groups and ministries of the Lord Jesus Christ was widespread. Conversely, being negative toward anything in the local church life was forbidden. Only Lee himself could rebuke the church as old, cold, dormant. No one else. And nobody could ever question Lee.

You know, Jesus also rebuked, corrected. But God raised Jesus from the dead on the third day. Witness Lee's grave remains among us. So how are we not to understand that Witness Lee is also a man like ourselves, also with the fallen soul and its concepts? The only thing that I can see here is a sort of culturally-derived blindness, which dictates that it must be so. But this view directly contravenes the clear word of scripture. Jesus taught, who'd be great must be the least in this world; those who attempt to be great will be least in the kingdom of God. Therefore, the so-called Spiritual Giant in this case is arguably an offspring of the fallen; just like the 'Grigori' of the LXX translation who devoured the flesh of men until the cries of the afflicted reached to heaven.

Drake tells us this is ancient history. Yet the spirit is still there.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Witness Lee

Recently, some among us became dissenting, although the claimed to have seen the ground and to be for the Lord's recovery. Because they had not been solidly overlaid with gold, they caused the oneness to be damaged. The same thing may happen in the future to anyone who is not fully overlaid with gold. Not having an adequate amount of God can create a serious problem with the oneness. The Lord's recovery is not a movement. We do not desire to gain a large number of people. In the recovery we are concerned for this genuine weight of gold. The important is this: how much of God do you have? The Lord's recovery consists of God overlaying His recovered people with Himself.

Whenever I see that any are dissenting, I feel sorry for them. At the same time I realize that such a situation of dissension is a test, and exposure, and a purification. It is a test of what is real, of how much gold we actually have. We all need to gain more gold. ~Truth Messages, p. 84

So the measure here is "more gold". But who makes the measure? Witness Lee. If he says you have more gold, then you have it.

Conversely, those who don't have sufficient gold, in this case, became "dissenting". But why can't we say that Watchman Nee didn't have enough weight of gold, to bear with the Western denominations, who had brought him the message of God's salvation in Jesus Christ, and who then became dissenting, and left to form his own denomination, aka The Little Flock? I mean, Nee was how many years a Christian, at that point? Five? How can we safely assume that Watchman Nee got that much gold, that soon? Why this dangerous assumption?

Why does the rule of measurement always fall on the "other" in the supposedly rich ministry of Witness Lee, and never is applied to himself, or to Nee? Somehow God's Specially Chosen Vessel of the Hour is always exempt from the same weights and measures that he continually places on others.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

But my question here has been, why could no one correct Witness Lee? Why is it that he sent out, again and again, various visions, flows, and moves, which resulted in turmoil, confusion, discouragement, and divisions among the flock, and the problem was always deemed overzealous and semi-rogue lieutenants? The "Young Galileans Affair" also comes to mind. Lee would whip up the troops, and when the dust settled, the mess was always someone else's fault.

Originally Posted by aron

Why is it that we were encouraged to publicly point out the defects of "fallen Christianity", including prominent leaders, even Biblical ones, but Witness Lee had to be "covered"?

Because Witness Lee was "today's Paul", and was God's Avatar? Deputy God?

Thus, the incessant "storms, turmoils, rebellions" following this man and his ministry. Yet we are by definition precluded from objectively examining the teachings, understandings, and shared values which support this societal "cosmos", or arrangement. "I'm proud to be an ostrich with my head stuck in the sand!" was how one of the Anaheim elders put it, as a turmoil was wracking the assembly there.

In the Great Lakes Area it was common knowledge that Titus Chu was like an umbrella to protect the region from all of those crazies in Anaheim at LSM. Endless winds and waves from the "extreme weather center" in Anaheim would go howling through the Recovery, with death and destruction in their wake, and we would regularly thank God for our "umbrella."

Never did we, or at least me, consider that the eye of the hurricane was Lee himself. That would be an unthinkable thought. Instead we constantly believed Titus Chu that Lee was God's anointed and his "spiritual father," whose many problems "were none of his business." All of the problems were sourced in those spiritual flunkies who constantly surrounded Lee. Note that these minions were purged with each successive "storm" in order to keep Lee's pristine image intact.

Was not this constant cycle the very definition of insanity? Or at very best, the manifestation of hypocrisy, leaven, and scapegoating?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Drake tells us this is ancient history. Yet the spirit is still there.

Another LC hypocrisy.

We were taught to condemn Catholics for actions taken during the dark ages, yet LSM is given a free pass for all unrighteousness older than the leftover pizza in my fridge.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Was not this constant cycle the very definition of insanity? Or at very best, the manifestation of hypocrisy, leaven, and scapegoating?

Unless we're allowed to measure Nee and Lee with the same scales and yardsticks as everyone else, the cycle will continue.

And as Drake helpfully points out, yes that includes us. May we all find the magnanimity and broadness that seemed to be signally lacking in Lee.

"Until we all arrive..."

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Another LC hypocrisy.

We were taught to condemn Catholics for actions taken during the dark ages, yet LSM is given a free pass for all unrighteousness older than the leftover pizza in my fridge.

If the sin is still "hot" they are "looking into it". Once it is cold it is "ancient history". Even 20 years later "he doesn't want to deal with that today" is still given as an excuse by elders and church leaders.

False teachers cannot deal with sins without the entire sham collapsing, so hypocrisy is a symptom of a false teacher and is helpful in diagnosing false teachers.

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

is helpful in diagnosing false teachers.

False measures expose false teachers. "More gold", said Lee. If Lee said that you had more gold, then you had it. If not, then you didn't. Lee's subjective assessment was akin to the measure of objective reality itself. How can one place any assurance whatsoever in such a measurement?

[aron]

Why is it that when Lee said negative things about others, it was a correction or adjustment or rebuke, and when anyone said anything negative about his ministry it was deemed an accusation and a slander? Why the double standards, here?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Why is it that when Lee said negative things about others, it was a correction or adjustment or rebuke, and when anyone said anything negative about his ministry it was deemed an accusation and a slander? Why the double standards, here?

Because he was the MOTA, the Final Spiritual Giant, the Acting God, Today's Moses, Today's Paul.

By definition, he is always right, even when he was wrong.

By definition, everything he does or says is from God, even when it's not.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Because he was the MOTA, the Final Spiritual Giant, the Acting God, Today's Moses, Today's Paul..

Witness Lee, like Watchman Nee, had a thing for 'spiritual giants'. I don't know where they got this concept. Not from Jesus, nor Paul. The only biblical precedent that I'm aware of is the giants that came out from the abominable union between the sons of God and the daughters of men.

Why would this be referenced in a positive way by Nee and Lee? I have no idea. Really. What was the genesis (pun intended) of this idea?

Is there any other scriptural basis for this idea? And didn't they see the connection to Genesis 6, and Numbers 13? I find the idea of 'giants' to be abhorrent. Really. Am I over-reacting, here?

And the Final Giant. . . they didn't even dare print that one. But I heard them talk about it, when Lee passed. The age had turned, they said. . . did anyone else hear this kind of talk, that the age of spiritual giants was over? What is the source of such talk?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by aron

Witness Lee, like Watchman Nee, had a thing for 'spiritual giants'. I don't know where they got this concept. Not from Jesus, nor Paul. The only biblical precedent that I'm aware of is the giants that came out from the abominable union between the sons of God and the daughters of men.

Why would this be referenced in a positive way by Nee and Lee? I have no idea. Really. What was the genesis (pun intended) of this idea?

Is there any other scriptural basis for this idea? And didn't they see the connection to Genesis 6, and Numbers 13? I find the idea of 'giants' to be abhorrent. Really. Am I over-reacting, here?

And the Final Giant. . . they didn't even dare print that one. But I heard them talk about it, when Lee passed. The age had turned, they said. . . did anyone else hear this kind of talk, that the age of spiritual giants was over? What is the source of such talk?

I heard it numerous times, as if the age was transitioning from the MOTA to the BOTA (that's the body of the age, you know the "body" at LSM, all supported by those Local "merely the procedure" Churches to access the New Jerusalem.

On a more sober note, I always felt that the talk about the age of spiritual giants was over was a shot over the bow aimed at Titus Chu (and apparently Dong Yu Lan). Lee always spoke in coded terms. Nothing repeated was said by accident. Words always had two meanings.

Lee knew the power struggle that would occur when he died. (Happened with every other MOTA before him, and including Lee himself.) He knew that none of the Blendeds could stand up to TC personally, so Lee isolated him against all his loyalists. All the Blendeds were prepped by Lee ahead of time, perhaps even hinting the need to quarantine him "for the body," you know like how they killed Jesus in order to save the nation of Israel.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I heard it numerous times, as if the age was transitioning...

Thanks for the confirmation. Interesting observation about the possible connection to the power struggles that followed.

What's really striking to me, is how they never even bothered to find a single relevant Bible verse. I mean, this is the local church! But here, "Scripture?! We don't need no scripture!" Not even the pretense of being bible-based.

[least]

Hey Aron
WL did not like 'Different weights and measures'. Below 2 paragraphs in life study of minor prophets.
*****
The prophets are great in their speaking about Christ but not in their speaking about other things. We may use Micah and Amos as examples. On the one hand, they both prophesied concerning Christ; on the other hand, they both spoke about such a small thing as deceitful balances. Amos said that the corrupt people made the ephah small and the shekel large and falsified the balances for deceit (8:5). Concerning this, Micah said, “Are there yet treasures of wickedness in the house of the wicked, / And a scant measure that is abominable? / Shall I be pure with wicked balances / And with a bag of deceitful weights?” (6:10-11). Both prophets observed that the people used one measure for buying and a different measure for selling and that their weights and balances were deceitful. The word of Amos and Micah about such a small matter cannot compare with the greatness of their word concerning Christ.
……. ……… ………
In contrast, Amos and Micah used many more chapters than Joel to speak of things other than Christ. When these prophets spoke concerning Christ, they spoke great things, but when they expressed their own natural concept and opinion, they were like some of the psalmists. For instance, Micah 6:8 says, “He has declared to you, O man, what is good; / And what does Jehovah require of you, / But that you would execute justice and love lovingkindness / And walk humbly with your God?” Is this word according to the tree of life or according to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil? Surely it is according to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Is this word according to the divine revelation or according to the human concept of the prophet? This word is not a matter of God’s revelation but of the prophet’s concept.
*****

"corrupt people made the ephah small and the shekel large and falsified the balances for deceit" according to WL were small matters.

"execute justice and love lovingkindness" and "walk humbly with your God" to WL were surely according to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

[aron]

Originally Posted by least

"corrupt people made the ephah small and the shekel large and falsified the balances for deceit" according to WL were small matters.

"execute justice and love lovingkindness" and "walk humbly with your God" to WL were surely according to the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

least,

this shows WL's denigration of scripture didn't stop with the Psalms, James, Jude, Peter, Job, and Proverbs. Apparently the minor prophets also didn't get it, either. Where in the NT reception is the precedence for such assessments of scripture? No, we repeatedly find the opposite. "Man does not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." Where does the NT begin to suggest dismissing scripture on such vast scale?

And if Lee was so enamored of finding Christ, how about that Jesus was the One who walked humbly with God? Jesus was the One whose heart was pure? Jesus was the One in whom the Father delighted? Jesus who trusted in the Father, who then raised Him from the pangs of death? Our faith is not in ourselves, but in Him - His life, His works, His righteousness, His purity, His love, and yes His faith. The NT apostles clearly indicated this, over and over. This prophetic utterance was concerning Christ, not merely the vain self-reflection of some pious OT saint in his natural concepts. By faith, this Jesus then becomes our life, our hope, our faith, our testimony, and our journey.

Lastly, Lee did like saying that we need to be this and that. All sorts of requirements were placed upon our character and person, as NT believers enjoying grace. Any HWFMR outline is full of "must's" and "need to's" and "have to's" and "should's" and "ought to's" ... but all this supposed NT 'enjoyment' and 'reality' was not built upon faith in Jesus Christ, because the justice, humility, and loving-kindness in the OT scripture, all arguably pointing to God's coming Christ, had been summarily dismissed.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by aron

Lastly, Lee did like saying that we need to be this and that. All sorts of requirements were placed upon our character and person, as NT believers enjoying grace. Any HWFMR outline is full of "must's" and "need to's" and "have to's" and "should's" and "ought to's" ... but all this supposed NT 'enjoyment' and 'reality' was not built upon faith in Jesus Christ, because the justice, humility, and loving-kindness in the OT scripture, all arguably pointing to God's coming Christ, had been summarily dismissed.

In my LC experience, there came a point in time when I realized the disconnect between what is spoken and what is actually practiced in the LC. It was hard to reconcile this disconnect, it just didn't seem possible. We were all convinced that what was spoken represented an absolute truth.

LC members are quite often told to stop all their 'doing' and just rely on grace. They will be told that in the church life there are no regulations. People will say that in the church-life everything that happens is according to 'life'. But what is the dark and ugly side of it? What is lurking in the shadows? It's the fact that the LC is among the most legalistic and oppressive groups out there. At the surface everything seems positive and carefree. Anyone who has been around for a decent among of time knows all of the unspoken rules, the do's, the must's, etc.

When such things are confronted they are immediately excused as being necessary. They will say that our character needs to be built up. They will say things like "life grows through regulation." The excuses abound.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Freedom

In my LC experience. . . the LC is among the most legalistic and oppressive groups out there. At the surface everything seems positive and carefree. Anyone who has been around for a decent among of time knows all of the unspoken rules, the do's, the must's, etc.

When such things are confronted they are immediately excused as being necessary. They will say that our character needs to be built up. They will say things like "life grows through regulation." The excuses abound.

Yes, we must be regulated, right? Another word I heard becoming popular was that we need to be "restricted." But the regulations of the LC are worse than the regulations of the OT which are breezily dismissed as vain concepts of men. Why? Because the OT declarations pointed to the One who kept God's command, and opened the way for those who could not, because of the weakness of the flesh, please God.

See Peter's speech in Acts 2. The illiterate fisherman got it right. It's not complicated. The OT declaration prophetically pointed to its fulfillment in Jesus Christ.

Instead we rejected the prophetic text and replaced it with new traditions of men, culturally-derived, shaped and molded through the fallen human psyche, according to temporal exigencies on the ground. Those become our new restrictions and regulations.

And they're untrustworthy and are not good (objectively validated) measures. If Witness Lee said you have "more God", then you're all set? Please, Lord, have mercy on us.