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Old 08-26-2019, 05:13 AM   #1
jesusislord
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Default Why not just move on?

No church is perfect, if the Lc doesn't suite you or abused by anyone within it, isnt it easier or healthier to just forgive and move on? Keep lingering or live in the past is wasting time and adding more negativity to ourselves. I know it's hard to move on completely coz some of us spent yrs within it and got damaged..
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Old 08-26-2019, 09:06 AM   #2
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Default Re: Why not just move on?

I understand the logic, but sometimes the trauma must be processed.

http://besselvanderkolk.net/index.html

“Being able to feel safe with other people is probably ​the single most important aspect of mental health; safe connections are fundamental to meaningful and satisfying lives.”

“Neuroscience research shows that the only way we can change ​the way we feel is by becoming aware of our inner experience ​and learning to befriend what is going on inside ourselves.”

Ultimately everyone needs to make that determination. It's really a personal and case-by-case decision.

The other point is that others should be warned, so that they don't repeat the same traumas and abuse that many here went through.
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Old 08-26-2019, 09:07 AM   #3
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Default Re: Why not just move on?

For some the most healthiest thing to do is to totally remove themselves from anything and anyone related to the Local Church of Witness Lee, at least for a period of time. For these particular brothers and sisters this forum is not for them! They would do best by not participating and maybe not even lurking.

"Why not just move on?" Well, for some of us, our conscience and our individual calling from the Lord will not allow us to be silent. We have a story to tell and the Lord has provided a venue for us to tell it. For some of us, simply moving on would be like Jonah refusing to go to preach to Nineveh and head in the opposite direction. Not that any of us have received such a great and important calling directly from God, but many of us do feel that we have a calling. There are deceived people in the Local Church. There are abused and hurting people in the Local Church. Young people and newer Christians are especially at risk to be deceived and/or abused.

For too long, Witness Lee and many of his followers have practiced the most insidious form of information control. Local Church members have been kept in the dark about the dark side of Witness Lee and the inner workings at the Living Stream Ministry and the true, hidden history of the movement. For too long, some dear "little ones" have suffered abuse of almost every kind imaginable - psychological, spiritual, physical and even sexual. Many times the abuse has come at the hands of elders, leading ones and persons of trust.

The days of "for too long" in the Local Church of Witness Lee are coming to an end. For some of us, we will not "move one" until God moves on. And God is not moving on until his will is done on earth as it is in heaven.

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Old 08-26-2019, 09:52 AM   #4
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Default Re: Why not just move on?

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Originally Posted by jesusislord View Post
No church is perfect, if the Lc doesn't suite you or abused by anyone within it, isnt it easier or healthier to just forgive and move on? Keep lingering or live in the past is wasting time and adding more negativity to ourselves. I know it's hard to move on completely coz some of us spent yrs within it and got damaged..
You are right. No church is perfect.

Even if the church was "perfect," it might not be "right" for you at this time.

The teachers at LSM have a way of manipulating your heart so that to "just forgive and move on" is not easily possible. Lies and guilt and anxiety and fears from their false teachings haunt the heart from moving on. The many stories and testimonies on this forum are proof.

After leaving the LC, we visited a nearby community church. The youth pastor was leaving the church, and the elders prayed for the family in the meeting. We were shocked. That would never happen in the LC. Anyone leaving the LC must be branded a failure. Or worse. It's just pride. Arrogant pride. The worst of it is not what they say behind your back after you leave, but their lies regurgitating in your gut. This forum helps to vomit out some of that garbage.

All LC teachings are leavened. We hope and pray that members can "hold fast the liberty they have in Christ" (Galatians 5.1), and also "hold faith and a good conscience" (I Timothy 1.18-19), as they slowly detox and unleaven their hearts from the influences LSM's rotten teachings and practices.

We are today just like the disciples whom Jesus warned when they reached the "other side," and He told them to "Beware of the teachings of the Pharisees." (read Matt 16.5-12)
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Old 08-26-2019, 10:58 AM   #5
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Default Re: Why not just move on?

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LSM has a way of manipulating your heart so that to "just forgive and move on" is not easily possible. Lies and guilt and anxiety and fears from their false teachings haunt the heart from moving on. The many stories and testimonies on this forum are proof.

...The worst of it is not what they say behind your back after you leave, but their lies regurgitating in your gut. This forum helps to vomit out some of that garbage.
Interesting to consider how many return to the LSM fold after making a clean break, or even a quasi-clean one? Like the abused partner resuming the relationship after the bruises have faded somewhat. I mean, hey, no marriage is perfect. Right? The returnee holds the junky thinking inside that it really wasn't THAT bad, and besides, where else can they go?
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All LC teachings are leavened. We hope and pray that members can "hold fast the liberty they have in Christ" (Galatians 5.1), and also "hold faith and a good conscience" (I Timothy 1.18-19), as they slowly detox and unleaven their hearts from the influences LSM's rotten teachings and practices.
Here's an example: if you had asked me 6 or 8 months ago what "God's economy" was, per 1 Timothy 1, I'd probably either said, "I dunno, who cares" or would have said to read the WL books on the subject. But just recently I began to unpack the topic on this forum, and like most of WL's output there was little there but idiosyncratic connections and baseless assumptions. And I found other, more scripturally-aligned alternatives.

Similarly, there are probably hundreds, if not thousands, of unexamined assumptions that former members "walk away" with. The invidious nature of LSM's programming is impressive to behold. But most former members probably don't take the time & conscious effort (read: work) to behold the programme as it really is: ingrained, mutually-reinforcing, and thorough, and then to "slowly detox" from its effects.

Nigel Tomes is a good example of one who publicly detoxed himself from previously uncritically-received teachings. Whether he's happier today than 15 years ago, whether more solidly connected to God in daily life, and whether and how much his writings have helped others extricate from the homebrewed morass that is "the ministry" in the LCs, the Lord knows. But clearly he put in the work.
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Old 08-26-2019, 12:32 PM   #6
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Default Re: Why not just move on?

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No church is perfect, if the Lc doesn't suite you or abused by anyone within it, isnt it easier or healthier to just forgive and move on? Keep lingering or live in the past is wasting time and adding more negativity to ourselves. I know it's hard to move on completely coz some of us spent yrs within it and got damaged..
You answered you own question. Why not just move on from any trauma? Because the trauma has produced issues that are not trivial.

Another reason is some dwell on the issue of the LR to help others. It isn't about them, it's about helping other process the experience of the group.
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Old 08-26-2019, 12:50 PM   #7
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You answered you own question. Why not just move on from any trauma? Because the trauma has produced issues that are not trivial.

Another reason is some dwell on the issue of the LR to help others. It isn't about them, it's about helping other process the experience of the group.
I dwell on it because I'm still wondering what was wrong with me for joining it.

Also, because the LC is such a high impact cult, that it permanently bent my tree, like a hurricane does a palm tree.
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Old 08-26-2019, 12:51 PM   #8
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You answered you own question. Why not just move on from any trauma? Because the trauma has produced issues that are not trivial...
Now for some, the experience may indeed be trivial. Suppose a college student gets invited to a "Christians on Campus" meeting. Seems... okay... then they do some digging and find out more, & they're like, Uh, no. But no trauma was produced - they simply move on. It was a trivial experience.

A church kid who spent the first 20 or 35 years of their life, essentially 24/7, on the other hand, may need to do some serious unpacking, if they really want to "move on." The amount of stuff that got clogged in their mental/emotional/psychological system in that time is rather daunting to consider.

Suppose three people come back home from a war abroad. One served in the commissary, gets out, gets a job at Wal-Mart and he's off to civilian life. Another was pretty shaken up but goes through 8 months of outpatient counseling and gets an Associate's Degree and becomes a computer repair person at Best Buy and life goes on. The third person has freaky PTSD, saw his 2 best friends dismembered in a HUMVEE by a roadside IED. He's got a bit of a slog ahead, perhaps.

There is 'stress', which is endemic to life and can even be helpful. Think of athletics for example, or chess. Then there is 'traumatic stress' which leaves a distorting imprint and lessens one's ability to deal with their life. That's where dissociative psychological conditions come in, and eating disorders, compulsions, addictions, depression, self-harm, etc. All mark failed attempts to "cope", or compensate, with the trauma and the effects it had on one's person.
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Old 08-26-2019, 06:37 PM   #9
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Default Re: Why not just move on?

Well said you guys!
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Old 08-26-2019, 08:02 PM   #10
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Now for some, the experience may indeed be trivial. Suppose a college student gets invited to a "Christians on Campus" meeting. Seems... okay... then they do some digging and find out more, & they're like, Uh, no. But no trauma was produced - they simply move on. It was a trivial experience.

A church kid who spent the first 20 or 35 years of their life, essentially 24/7, on the other hand, may need to do some serious unpacking, if they really want to "move on." The amount of stuff that got clogged in their mental/emotional/psychological system in that time is rather daunting to consider.

Suppose three people come back home from a war abroad. One served in the commissary, gets out, gets a job at Wal-Mart and he's off to civilian life. Another was pretty shaken up but goes through 8 months of outpatient counseling and gets an Associate's Degree and becomes a computer repair person at Best Buy and life goes on. The third person has freaky PTSD, saw his 2 best friends dismembered in a HUMVEE by a roadside IED. He's got a bit of a slog ahead, perhaps.

There is 'stress', which is endemic to life and can even be helpful. Think of athletics for example, or chess. Then there is 'traumatic stress' which leaves a distorting imprint and lessens one's ability to deal with their life. That's where dissociative psychological conditions come in, and eating disorders, compulsions, addictions, depression, self-harm, etc. All mark failed attempts to "cope", or compensate, with the trauma and the effects it had on one's person.
Well said, but what I see in this forum is that many of us just keep ranting and bad talking about stuff that has happened. Detoxification should be finding a better place, back to God gospel, sharing with each others the positive things in life etc
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Old 08-26-2019, 08:18 PM   #11
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Well said, but what I see in this forum is that many of us just keep ranting and bad talking about stuff that has happened. Detoxification should be finding a better place, back to God gospel, sharing with each others the positive things in life etc
Great jesusislord! Go for it! Who's stopping you? Please feel free to share your positive things in life! I really mean it. If you feel that this is what is needed on this forum, then take the lead! I'm sure many will follow your lead and the forum will be much better for it.
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Old 08-26-2019, 08:38 PM   #12
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Well said, but what I see in this forum is that many of us just keep ranting and bad talking about stuff that has happened. Detoxification should be finding a better place, back to God gospel, sharing with each others the positive things in life etc
Can you provide some detail here? What do you mean "bad talking stuff that happened?"

This could be taken many ways. I, for one, often mention the LC history surrounding the quarantines of Max, Ingalls, and Chu. This is not because I am "stuck" there, but because others are. Many lurkers/readers have never heard the actual facts or the truth of what happened. These were LC cataclymic events in which leaders seriously lied and deceived all LC members. The nature of this forum requires these stories to be told and retold from a multitude of directions.

Detox, both for me and for many others, requires a certain amount of unleavening, unlearning, and unpacking of old narratives formerly accepted as truth. This forum provides serious value, based on years of positive feedback, by addressing these historical narratives long hidden from sight by deceptive leaders at LSM.
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Old 08-26-2019, 08:58 PM   #13
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Great jesusislord! Go for it! Who's stopping you? Please feel free to share your positive things in life! I really mean it. If you feel that this is what is needed on this forum, then take the lead! I'm sure many will follow your lead and the forum will be much better for it.
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This area of the boards is a good place for sharing the positive things of This Life
http://localchurchdiscussions.com/vB...splay.php?f=33
Acts 5:20 https://biblehub.com/blb/acts/5.htm
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Old 08-27-2019, 12:51 AM   #14
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Default Re: Why not just move on?

jesusislord This is actually something I've been thinking for some months now. I guess I'd fall under the category of 20-somethings that were heavily affected by the 'church kid' upbringing but have since decided to leave.

I'm super grateful for this site for providing some valuable information I needed, but I've pretty quickly lost interest in engaging too much on here. I'm not interested in staying inside an echo-chamber of 'LC = bad', where even slight dissent is met with derision.

On the flip side, you could argue that it is important for some people to remain active on this forum. Suppose a young person were to stumble upon here, it might be helpful for them to hear back from others who have gone through the same. I remember that was me at one point.

It is worth considering exactly WHY you are on this forum. For those of you well-established in much healthier Christian groups it seems odd to me to want to keep coming here to talk about how bad the LC is, politics, or whatever when you could do so easily in person. I don't mean that to sound condescending, because I've done my share of ruminating, but I must admit it's a quite stagnant existence.

[Side note: I think this post will mark my departure from this site; I've come to my own conclusions about things and am ready to move on. It's been a hoot and I'm so blessed to have stumbled upon this site when I did. All the best to you all!]
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Old 08-27-2019, 06:28 AM   #15
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Default Re: Why not just move on?

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Well said, but what I see in this forum is that many of us just keep ranting and bad talking about stuff that has happened. Detoxification should be finding a better place, back to God gospel, sharing with each others the positive things in life etc
The opportunity is there. For example, I wrote of the positive things that I see of Jesus Christ in the Psalms.

Psalm 3:5 "I (Christ) laid me down and slept; I awaked; for the LORD (the Father) sustained me." equals John 10:18 "No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father." (KJV)

But this was in a section where I was discussing WL's dismissal of the OT text and his poor reasoning. According to WL, nobody can please God. Um, there's this guy named Jesus...

Or, Psalm 18:10 "He (the Father) brought me (Christ the Son) out into a spacious place; he rescued me because he delighted in me." see e.g., "And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." from Matthew 3:17 (NIV)

My point is that in noting deficiencies in the RecV footnote, we have opportunities to point out more helpful and profitable approaches. Sometimes we take advantages of these opportunities and sometimes we don't. I recently did (or tried) the same thing on the "God's economy" thread. It's not just enough to point out the emptiness of the LC teaching, but some correction or alternative might be needed.

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Another reason is some dwell on the issue of the LR to help others. It isn't about them, it's about helping other process the experience of the group.
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The nature of this forum requires these stories to be told and retold from a multitude of directions.... this forum provides serious value, based on years of positive feedback, by addressing these historical narratives long hidden from sight by deceptive leaders at LSM.
The LSM has dozens or hundreds of paid operatives trolling college campuses, looking for naive 19 year-olds. Those young students should be warned. A couple of years ago I was chatting with a LC'er who told me of the scores of operatives working the campus, and the phrase I heard was "fresh blood for the body". I mean, that's vampire talk.

And there are hundreds of people ejected by their system, who are confused, frightened, frustrated. What just happened? Am I really going into a thousand years of torment for not reading LSM materials and going to their "perfecting training"? And what happens to me if I get a 'negative' thought (i.e. try to think critically)?

For them, this forum exists. Not for me. I just like to write. (but it has helped me a lot)
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Old 08-27-2019, 06:59 AM   #16
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It is worth considering exactly WHY you are on this forum. For those of you well-established in much healthier Christian groups it seems odd to me to want to keep coming here to talk about how bad the LC is, politics, or whatever when you could do so easily in person. I don't mean that to sound condescending, because I've done my share of ruminating, but I must admit it's a quite stagnant existence.
Melo, anything can become a stagnant existence. And anything can be a vibrant, evolving existence. It is up to the individual. And yes, I'm trying to own my own journey.

Here is a recent post on FB. Shows the level of deprogramming sometimes needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FB member
during the last two years, I've experienced what I can only describe as an invisible parasitic virus being ripped out of my body. As children in the Lord's Recovery, we were indoctrinated. If this doesn't alarm you, please read more about this form of child abuse. When someone chooses to leave the belief system that was indoctrinated into them, the indoctrination is designed to work against you. It's designed to tell you, "you are evil/you are poisonous/you're a disappointment to God/you aren't good enough to be a part of God's best/etc/' Being around family and friends that are indoctrinated is especially hard bc you are now an "outsider." You know exactly what they're thinking of you bc you used the think the same thing about other people!

I remember having months of just telling myself, "You have done the research, you have talked to countless people, you are using critical thinking skills, you logically KNOW you are doing the right thing, you know to go back would mean you're betraying yourself, you KNOW God still loves you, you KNOW you still have value." It was almost too much to bear. During this time, I also had to face many issues about my childhood. In the church, it's very common to frame the family life as "ideal." While I'm thankful to my parents, they didn't know (likely bc of church influence) about healthy boundaries. I had to confront my past, take responsibility for my own life, kick the learned helplessness to the curb, relearn my own personal belief system, deal with the immense pain of unindoctrination, and deal with the fact that my life was nothing like I thought it was. I had to humble myself to the fact that the "world" actually had a lot more things right than the "Lord's Recovery." The "world" can't be dumped into one category. The world is very diverse with all kinds of pure love but also evil. The "world" is just life.
For those out there still struggling with "unindoctrination" and "reprogramming", there are resources for you. You are not alone. The book I referenced in post #2 was a huge help for me.
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Old 08-27-2019, 07:51 AM   #17
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Just so you know, I pray about my participation on this board, and it's important to me to know I have proper motivations for doing so. I know some divorced men who years after their divorce are still going around and around with negativity about their former wives. Obviously they haven't dealt with everything, but perhaps they are not really trying to deal with things as well as they could, and so might be caught in a whirlpool. That is certainly possible here as well.

I just know how hard it was for me to figure things out about the LR, and how much help this board was. Now I feel I am equipped to help some. I have a strong sense of indignation about the injustice of the group. And God said to fight for the justice of the oppressed. And like aron, I like to write. I honestly feel the Lord is pleased with my participation. But I continue praying about to make sure I'm not just here doing my own thing.

I think all of us need to pray as well as participate. Just going around and around here can become a whirlpool. But just because someone is a long-time contributor here does not mean he or she has that problem.
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Old 08-27-2019, 09:56 AM   #18
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No church is perfect, if the Lc doesn't suite you or abused by anyone within it, isnt it easier or healthier to just forgive and move on? Keep lingering or live in the past is wasting time and adding more negativity to ourselves. I know it's hard to move on completely coz some of us spent yrs within it and got damaged..
I think you should change your moniker.

You are preaching another gospel. Easier for who? "Healthier" for who? You? The so-called "Blendeds"? Wasting time? There will be 1000 years to clear these offenses up...eventually. Adding more "negativity" to "ourselves". What's a little abuse now and then?

The truth may not always be "positive" but it will ALWAYS be the TRUTH.

Here's what the Bible says about offenses:
Matt. 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.


No! Wait! Just ... move on... it's easier or healthier to just forgive and move on!!! What's a little abuse now and then? Cover the brothers! Cover the abusers! Clearing up offenses is wasting time and adding more negativity to ourselves.

10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. 11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

12 How think ye? If a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?


Nahhhh. No problem. It's just one dissenter. One troublemaker. Who cares?Just move on. They're not going to be an "overcomer" anyway...they're not in "God's Best". You're just wasting your time.


13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.


Oh well. Whatever. You're wasting your time. It's too hard. Think how hard it will be with a millstone around your neck.

Tell me, jesusislord, if YOU were in trouble and lost your way, would you want your brothers and sisters to "just move on"? Oh well, you've got your own gospel.

The lost sheep is welcome here.

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Old 08-27-2019, 01:44 PM   #19
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No church is perfect, if the Lc doesn't suite you or abused by anyone within it, isnt it easier or healthier to just forgive and move on? Keep lingering or live in the past is wasting time and adding more negativity to ourselves. I know it's hard to move on completely coz some of us spent yrs within it and got damaged..
Lot's of good reasons to not simply "move on."

And at this point, I will say that my lack of involvement over the past couple of years is evidence of a change in my own position. But it is only with respect to me, not with others.

As has been stated so clearly (not that those sold-out on the LRC system would agree) there is a lot of negative baggage for those who have been involved in the LRC for more than a very short time (14 years for me). And it is not "positive baggage" being dumped by degenerate Christians, but "negative baggage" that stands in opposition to healthy faith in Christ.

And it is more than just a visible suitcase that can be left by a seat at the airport terminal (don't try that these days). It is more like a range of mental issues ranging from bad indoctrination to a kind of PTSD for some. I can say that it was fortunately not so bad for me. But it clearly was for some others.

I know that essentially appearing, declaring our mission to be a waste of time and signing-off is evidence that you never actually engaged. It was almost 20 years after leaving the LRC that I first engaged in deconstructing its teachings and practices. After a few years of that, I can say that my Christian experience has greatly improved since I am no longer held in bondage to false fears planted and cultivated by the LRC.

I may have no particular experiences related to more recent issues in the LRC, but this forum is here to help those seeking relief to legitimately move on.
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Old 08-28-2019, 06:22 AM   #20
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I think you should change your moniker.

You are preaching another gospel. Easier for who? "Healthier" for who? You? The so-called "Blendeds"? Wasting time? There will be 1000 years to clear these offenses up...eventually. Adding more "negativity" to "ourselves". What's a little abuse now and then?

The truth may not always be "positive" but it will ALWAYS be the TRUTH.

Here's what the Bible says about offenses:
Matt. 18:5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!

8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.

9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.


No! Wait! Just ... move on... it's easier or healthier to just forgive and move on!!! What's a little abuse now and then? Cover the brothers! Cover the abusers! Clearing up offenses is wasting time and adding more negativity to ourselves.

10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven. 11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.

12 How think ye? If a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?


Nahhhh. No problem. It's just one dissenter. One troublemaker. Who cares?Just move on. They're not going to be an "overcomer" anyway...they're not in "God's Best". You're just wasting your time.


13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.


Oh well. Whatever. You're wasting your time. It's too hard. Think how hard it will be with a millstone around your neck.

Tell me, jesusislord, if YOU were in trouble and lost your way, would you want your brothers and sisters to "just move on"? Oh well, you've got your own gospel.

The lost sheep is welcome here.

Nell
But not all lc teaching is bad isn't it? I met the Lord through them, how does the preaching of the Lord die on the cross is bad? Do you think anything out of the Roman Catholic church is bad? I don't think so.
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Old 08-28-2019, 08:31 AM   #21
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But not all lc teaching is bad isn't it? I met the Lord through them, how does the preaching of the Lord die on the cross is bad? Do you think anything out of the Roman Catholic church is bad? I don't think so.
Do not be deceived. Just because something may seem OK it does not make it so. The teachings of the LC will ALWAYS fall under 1 of 2 categories:

1. Restating the obvious - usually done with some fancy terminology and some sort of spin to create shock-value, like Christ dying on the cross for our sins (obvious) so he could mass-produce Himself (weird spin but not totally unbiblical if you focus on the idea being communicated rather than the isolated words, but just weird enough to get some "Wow's" during the meetings).

2. The unsound, unbiblical, insane teachings of WL and friends: The bible says that " The LORD saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time. But Noah found favor in the eyes of the LORD." (Gen 6:5,8) but WL still has the audacity to raise the question "Can we say that only Noah was serving God at the time of Noah?" just to try and prove that the idea of a MOTA is biblical.

The point is, either one of the categories have the same underlying motive: To prove that the LC is the real deal and everybody else is wrong. So at least in potential, every teaching of the LC has to offer is bad, because their motives are wrong.

It is like when the serpent told Eve " God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." (Gen 3:5). Is this teaching wrong? Didn't God later on say " Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil." (Gen 3:22)?
So, should we keep the "good/right" teachings of the serpent?
By using this example I am not calling WL and the LC a serpent. I am simply using the example to indicate that a teaching needs to be discerned along with its motive.
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Old 08-28-2019, 09:15 AM   #22
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No church is perfect, if the Lc doesn't suite you or abused by anyone within it, isnt it easier or healthier to just forgive and move on? Keep lingering or live in the past is wasting time and adding more negativity to ourselves. I know it's hard to move on completely coz some of us spent yrs within it and got damaged..
Okay, I will chime in too. First, welcome to the forum!

I, too, thought much the same thing. That is, why not just move on?! It seemed to me that some on here were just stuck in the past and that it had simply become a big distracting from pursuing Christ (and at times an attack on fellow, if not misguided, believers). I said as much to a few on here. But things were "splained" to me in a very nice way, much as how ones on this thread have explained it to you.

In the final analysis, we all must follow the Anointing within. To me now, it's not about trying to convince others on here about how they shouldn't keep rehashing all things LSM and LC over and over. (And I personally think there is merit, in that some appear to be getting light through the sharing - including me.)

I hope and do pray that on here my goal is to pursue and exhibit Christ in love, and let the "chips" fall where they may. All else is a distraction, period.
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Old 08-28-2019, 12:16 PM   #23
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But not all lc teaching is bad isn't it? I met the Lord through them, how does the preaching of the Lord die on the cross is bad? Do you think anything out of the Roman Catholic church is bad? I don't think so.
You met the Lord through the gospel as stated in the Bible, not Witness Lee. Whatever "good" LC teaching that exists, is "good" because it's in the Bible. The Lord dying on the cross is taught by gospel preachers and evangelists all over the globe, and has been since Jesus died on the cross. This has nothing to do with Witness Lee.

I can't comment on the Roman Catholic Church. I have nothing to say about it.

Some of WL's stuff is his own stuff and not in the Bible. This is Lee's biggest problem. Clearly stuff like "just move on, (i.e., sit down and shut up)", "don't say anything negative", "cover the brothers i.e., cover the sinful behavior of the brothers", is not scriptural but totally fleshly.

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Old 08-28-2019, 03:26 PM   #24
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You are preaching another gospel. Easier for who? "Healthier" for who? You? The so-called "Blendeds"? Wasting time? There will be 1000 years to clear these offenses up...eventually. Adding more "negativity" to "ourselves". What's a little abuse now and then? The truth may not always be "positive" but it will ALWAYS be the TRUTH.
It's a little harsh to tell someone that they are ''preaching another gospel.''
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Old 08-28-2019, 04:26 PM   #25
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Now for some, the experience may indeed be trivial. Suppose a college student gets invited to a "Christians on Campus" meeting. Seems... okay... then they do some digging and find out more, & they're like, Uh, no. But no trauma was produced - they simply move on. It was a trivial experience.

A church kid who spent the first 20 or 35 years of their life, essentially 24/7, on the other hand, may need to do some serious unpacking, if they really want to "move on." The amount of stuff that got clogged in their mental/emotional/psychological system in that time is rather daunting to consider.

Suppose three people come back home from a war abroad. One served in the commissary, gets out, gets a job at Wal-Mart and he's off to civilian life. Another was pretty shaken up but goes through 8 months of outpatient counseling and gets an Associate's Degree and becomes a computer repair person at Best Buy and life goes on. The third person has freaky PTSD, saw his 2 best friends dismembered in a HUMVEE by a roadside IED. He's got a bit of a slog ahead, perhaps.

There is 'stress', which is endemic to life and can even be helpful. Think of athletics for example, or chess. Then there is 'traumatic stress' which leaves a distorting imprint and lessens one's ability to deal with their life. That's where dissociative psychological conditions come in, and eating disorders, compulsions, addictions, depression, self-harm, etc. All mark failed attempts to "cope", or compensate, with the trauma and the effects it had on one's person.
Well put, Aron. We're all different. Our life circumstances are different. I was not raised in the ''cow.'' ( LC=Elsie, Borden's cow!! ) I have been single all the time, so, raising a family in the cow wasn't part of my experience. I came in to LC in 1974. I was steady until 1987, when the effects of the ''new way'' came to my locality. I had a weird sense about it. From there, I was in and out. As of now, I haven't been to a meeting since 2009. The meetings are just not what they once were. The focus has shifted from building up saints in a local church, to FTT this FTT that.
The ministry has gone from a small office in WLs tiny apartment, to a multi million dollar business, with who knows how many subsidiaries.
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Old 08-28-2019, 04:40 PM   #26
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It's a little harsh to tell someone that they are ''preaching another gospel.''
I think telling someone who has been hurt in the LC to “just move on” is a little harsh.

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Old 08-29-2019, 03:35 PM   #27
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Default Re: Why not just move on?

I don't see 'moving on' and discussing the errors of the LC as mutually exclusive.

In fact, the Lord is moving on, He is taking me with Him, and there is nothing keeping myself or others from walking forward with Him, recovering from deception and other hurts, and learning more about our Lord, whilst discussing the mechanics of the man made machine we were a part of.

Remaining silent on this groups duplicity is a teaching that comes straight from the LC pulpit, and we can now see it is a tool used to keep people in the dark. When I see Gods will for us so differently. He wants us all to walk in the light as He is in the light. He is the source of light.

Choosing the light, choosing to separate truth from the lie, does not equate with not moving on, at all, in my view. It is an awesome thing to now begin seeing everything for what it really is so we can make our own right choices. For me, Jesus is the only one I want to follow, and He is Awesome and He has been teaching me all things, all things I question, He reveals to me in time.

The LC wanted to usurp my one loyalty to the Lord Jesus and replace Him with their group in my heart. They have no right to expect such loyalty from believers, nor to equate their exclusive group with God Himself, as they do.
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Old 08-29-2019, 04:52 PM   #28
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The LC wanted to usurp my one loyalty to the Lord Jesus and replace Him with their group in my heart. They have no right to expect such loyalty from believers, nor to equate their exclusive group with God Himself, as they do.
My early prayer to the Lord was this: "Lord, take me to be with those that love you the way I do!" He was faithful to that and within about a week He took me 2000 miles away to place me in the LC in Berkeley in 1974. Then in the late 80s He led me out of the LC, and eventually put me with the group here in Scottsdale in 1998. He has been faithful to that prayer!
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Old 08-29-2019, 05:25 PM   #29
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My early prayer to the Lord was this: "Lord, take me to be with those that love you the way I do!" He was faithful to that and within about a week He took me 2000 miles away to place me in the LC in Berkeley in 1974. Then in the late 80s He led me out of the LC, and eventually put me with the group here in Scottsdale in 1998. He has been faithful to that prayer!
Amen, yep, He alone is faithful, He is the best Father, stg!
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Old 08-30-2019, 11:15 AM   #30
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Amen, yep, He alone is faithful, He is the best Father, stg!
Yes! God is the only truly Faithful One - always! Either God works ALL things for our good or not - and I choose to believe that all things are worked out for our ultimate good!

And the one who knows just when and how to "move on" is Christ in us! (although I must say that many times in my Christian walk I was too immature to know what His inner leading was in a particular matter, and by His mercy He arrange outward circumstances to move me on!)
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