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Old 03-26-2018, 10:40 PM   #1
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Default Myth Busters LCD Style Program 1

OK today I had the thought that this Local Church Discussions is a lot like the TV show Myth Busters https://mythresults.com/about-mythbusters

So let’s test this premise of Witness Lee:
“Grace in its highest definition is God in the Son to be enjoyed by us. It is not merely something done or given, but Christ Himself our portion glorious”
“Christianity's definition of grace as unmerited favor is too low”

Acceptable tests to prove validity of statements include Bible verses (plural) and actual “church life” testimonials of true events (plural) that demonstrate validity or not.

What say you? Myth or Truth. Busted, Plausible, or Confirmed?
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Old 03-27-2018, 03:06 AM   #2
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My problem with the definition is that it takes the focus off of God and onto us. The stress is on the "enjoyed by us" part. In this, "Christ" by definition can have little resemblance, or connection, to the actual objective historic person witnessed in the gospels and epistles.

Now "Christ" is reduced to fleeting ephemera. Whatever I "enjoyed" today is Christ.

But your subjectivity is shoehorned into his. And the abuse follows. Ask Sandee Rappoport. Ask Bill Mallon. Ask Jane Anderson.

Suddenly, your "enjoyment" is reduced to investing -cough, donating, cough - in son Timothy's motor home business. Or being "one with the office", aka son Philip. Today it's being "restricted by the Body and the fellowship".

"Enjoyment of Christ", as presented, is a ruse to get you to focus on yourself, which brings the types of ruin which I've briefly outlined above.
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Old 03-27-2018, 03:16 AM   #3
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Default Re: Myth Busters LCD Style Program 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ View Post
OK today I had the thought that this Local Church Discussions is a lot like the TV show Myth Busters https://mythresults.com/about-mythbusters

So let’s test this premise of Witness Lee:
“Grace in its highest definition is God in the Son to be enjoyed by us. It is not merely something done or given, but Christ Himself our portion glorious”
“Christianity's definition of grace as unmerited favor is too low”

Acceptable tests to prove validity of statements include Bible verses (plural) and actual “church life” testimonials of true events (plural) that demonstrate validity or not.

What say you? Myth or Truth. Busted, Plausible, or Confirmed?

That Grace is a person is Confirmed based on

2 Tim 1:9

9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

and

2 Tim 2:1
You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.

We can see that this grace is given to us in the person of Christ and is not a separate entity that exists outside of Christ. God may show "unmerited favor" to a Muslim or Hindu but without Christ, this is not the New Testament definition of grace but an old testament definition.

It is not as if God gives us Christ and then gives us some grace as a separate thing. The common definition is that "grace" is some special favor or blessing that God bestows on people after they have become Christians. However I think the "unmerited favor" that God bestowed on the world was His own dear Son Jesus Christ Himself, who died on a cross for the sins of the world.

The premise is that Grace is in fact a person and not just a mere theological definition (unmerited favor). I say "not just" because Witness Lee did not reject the common definition. It is a true definition but it is not a complete definition if it omits Christ.

Other supporting verses are:

1 Cor 15:10
Gal 2:20-21
John 1:17
Galatians 6:18
2 Cor 13:14
Rev 22:21

and is confirmed by this acronym:

G - God
R - Received
A - And
C - Christ
E - Enjoyed


We have positive affirmation in general Christianity such as this one:

https://www.christianity.com/theolog...-is-grace.html

“Grace” is the most important concept in the Bible, Christianity, and the world. It is most clearly expressed in the promises of God revealed in Scripture and embodied in Jesus Christ.

Michael Horton writes, “In grace, God gives nothing less than Himself. Grace, then, is not a third thing or substance mediating between God and sinners, but is Jesus Christ in redeeming action.”

Let's not confuse grace and mercy, or Old Testament grace (God's good intentions and blessings including forgiveness) versus New Testament grace (in Jesus Christ).
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Old 03-27-2018, 03:25 AM   #4
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My problem with the definition is that it takes the focus off of God and onto us. The stress is on the "enjoyed by us" part. In this, "Christ" by definition can have little resemblance, or connection, to the actual objective historic person witnessed in the gospels and epistles.

Now "Christ" is reduced to fleeting ephemera. Whatever I "enjoyed" today is Christ.

But your subjectivity is shoehorned into his. And the abuse follows. Ask Sandee Rappoport. Ask Bill Mallon. Ask Jane Anderson.

Suddenly, your "enjoyment" is reduced to investing -cough, donating, cough - in son Timothy's motor home business. Or being "one with the office", aka son Philip. Today it's being "restricted by the Body and the fellowship".

"Enjoyment of Christ", as presented, is a ruse to get you to focus on yourself, which brings the types of ruin which I've briefly outlined above.
Your post resembles the annoying running and repetitive commentary of Myth Busters that they do to draw out the length of the show, rather than an actual test which might arrive at some conclusion.
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Old 03-27-2018, 04:16 AM   #5
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Default Re: Myth Busters LCD Style Program 1

Lee's lengthy definitions are not "wrong" in themself, and many over the years have developed by others. But as aron noted, Lee's feel goodisms often became smokescreen for nefarious activities at headquarters.

And we must not forget the context -- his new and improved definitions were contingent upon the general condemnation of all others. He was never content to merely add to the wealth of Christian commentary, rather he had to replace it with his own, at least within his own shrinking sect of adherents.

"Unmerited favor" or "getting what we don't deserve" at least points us in the right direction -- which is God Himself -- rather than this superior attitude as we bought another ministry book on standing order.
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Old 03-27-2018, 06:46 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
an actual test which might arrive at some conclusion.
Here's a test: let's ask some people how much they enjoyed Christ at the hands of Philip Lee.

Or, public shaming, aka "perfecting" and "training"? What does that do to the conscience of the participants and witnesses, and how much enjoyment do you really get with a damaged conscience. I saw WL go after TC in public, and it was formalised, almost ritualistic. TC even said, "I am ashamed" because his troops were not sufficiently inured in The New Way coming out of Anaheim.

Third question: how much does the "Christ" that is "enjoyed" in the local churches affiliated with LSM resemble the actual person in the NT, you know the one who Peter said "went around doing good works"? I've already gone into this before.

I apologise for my unfamiliarity with the television show in question
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Old 03-27-2018, 08:37 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
Or, public shaming, aka "perfecting" and "training"? What does that do to the conscience of the participants and witnesses, and how much enjoyment do you really get with a damaged conscience. I saw WL go after TC in public, and it was formalised, almost ritualistic. TC even said, "I am ashamed" because his troops were not sufficiently inured in The New Way coming out of Anaheim.
I have mentioned on many occasions the lifelong deleterious effect this rotten pattern has had on the LC's in the Midwest. I watched an endless trail of beloved brothers, all gifts from the Head to His body, leave the LC's all with one unique "sin": they had a problem with Titus Chu after being shamed and demoralized by him publicly.

And what did that do to the conscience of those who supported TC during those public humiliations? ("Whew! Sure am glad it's not me!") Should not our conscience have been properly trained according to natural human affection and empathetic honor to stand up for the oppressed and bullied.

Read John Myer's comments on this in his Future and Hope:
Quote:
The Midwest, though, typically revolves around one worker, who sets the pace and direction for the ministry of the entire region. This was a pattern personally lived out by Witness Lee while he was still alive. Eventually, sub-lieutenants influenced by him each went to various parts of the globe where there were no peers on their same level and thus few serious checks or balances to their teaching, leadership, and direction.

The belief that this arrangement is somehow spiritual unfortunately rolls out a welcome mat for frequent bad behavior. We must all grant our leaders the grace to have bad days. However that does not include bad patterns. Patterns develop when behaviors go unchallenged, and they go unchallenged because of teachings that tell us to fear, above all else, the spiritual authority allegedly residing in some man.

Under that erroneous assumption, if said authority uses intimidation, public rebukes, temper tantrums, and mocking, it is acceptable because it is all part of the package. Indeed, I have seen godly, senior men bullied and scolded as though they were children.
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Old 03-27-2018, 09:26 AM   #8
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Here's a line from the "Pesher Habakkuk", a commentary on Habakkuk found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. It was written about the priests in Jerusalem (who btw were "on the proper ground").

For the sake of (self) glory they lead many to serve vanity and for their own profit.

It's a commentary on Habakkuk 2:13, if you want to read it.

http://www.moellerhaus.com/peshtran.htm

Witness Lee got you to focus on how you were feeling, (i.e., your "enjoyment"); that put a hook in to lead you by the nose. It was all about the self - once you focus on yourself, then he can manipulate you into the kingdom of himself. It's a house of mirrors.
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Old 03-27-2018, 11:46 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
My problem with the definition is that it takes the focus off of God and onto us. The stress is on the "enjoyed by us" part. In this, "Christ" by definition can have little resemblance, or connection, to the actual objective historic person witnessed in the gospels and epistles.

Now "Christ" is reduced to fleeting ephemera. Whatever I "enjoyed" today is Christ.

But your subjectivity is shoehorned into his. And the abuse follows. Ask Sandee Rappoport. Ask Bill Mallon. Ask Jane Anderson.

Suddenly, your "enjoyment" is reduced to investing -cough, donating, cough - in son Timothy's motor home business. Or being "one with the office", aka son Philip. Today it's being "restricted by the Body and the fellowship".

"Enjoyment of Christ", as presented, is a ruse to get you to focus on yourself, which brings the types of ruin which I've briefly outlined above.
To be simplified, having positive feelings you're considered to be in your spirit. If it's negative, you're likely in your mind. For example if something one reads in scripture causes their spirit to be inwardly disturbed, get out of your mind.
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Old 03-28-2018, 06:54 PM   #10
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Default Re: Myth Busters LCD Style Program 1

OK

Thanks to all of you for following the ground rules and refraining from name calling.

Not surprising we have disagreements on this.

I’m going to call the Myth busted due to empirical evidence.

Anyone care to propose a myth for Show #2?
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Old 03-28-2018, 07:46 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ View Post
OK

Thanks to all of you for following the ground rules and refraining from name calling.

Not surprising we have disagreements on this.

I’m going to call the Myth busted due to empirical evidence.

Anyone care to propose a myth for Show #2?
No, it is plausible at least and you have not followed your own "ground rules" of an acceptable test. Let me remind you what you defined as the "acceptable test" in the OP:

"Acceptable tests to prove validity of statements include Bible verses (plural) and actual “church life” testimonials".

This seems an acceptable test to me given that Scripture could be considered "theory" and testimonies could be considered "observations" or "data gathering". Yet you have made your decision without considering Scripture.

It seems one needs both Scripture and testimony to be able to call the myth busted or confirmed. Given that I have provided solid foundation of scripture then the myth is at least plausible because no scripture can be found to deny the plausibility.

I provided a plurality of scripture as you requested, and no other poster so far has provided such a thing and in particular, nothing which refutes or denies the Scripture I posted. Every other poster so far has provided only running commentary and opinions, not personal testimony. This is not empirical evidence from experimental observations, this is opinion. On the real TV show they never confirm or bust a myth based only on the collective opinion of the group.

Here's a little challenge for you all:

Please provide a plurality of Scripture verses which defines Grace as "unmerited favor". Since I know you would not be able to find such a definition in the Scripture I cannot see how the myth can be busted. It is at least plausible and with the addition of general support from the idea found in Christianity leads to it possibly being confirmed.
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Old 03-28-2018, 07:55 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
I have mentioned on many occasions the lifelong deleterious effect this rotten pattern has had on the LC's in the Midwest. I watched an endless trail of beloved brothers, all gifts from the Head to His body, leave the LC's all with one unique "sin": they had a problem with Titus Chu after being shamed and demoralized by him publicly.

And what did that do to the conscience of those who supported TC during those public humiliations? ("Whew! Sure am glad it's not me!") Should not our conscience have been properly trained according to natural human affection and empathetic honor to stand up for the oppressed and bullied.

Read John Myer's comments on this in his Future and Hope:
[FONT=Georgia][SIZE=3][COLOR=Navy]
I cannot see the relevance of this commentary on the matter of busting or confirming the myth regarding the definition of God's grace.
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Old 03-28-2018, 08:09 PM   #13
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I cannot see the relevance of this commentary on the matter of busting or confirming the myth regarding the definition of God's grace.
These are simply examples of LC leaders who obsess over the definition of grace yet completely miss the reality.
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Old 03-28-2018, 08:11 PM   #14
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I cannot see the relevance of this commentary on the matter of busting or confirming the myth regarding the definition of God's grace.
I would rather enjoy God's grace than define God's grace.
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Old 03-28-2018, 08:16 PM   #15
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I would rather enjoy God's grace than define God's grace.
So you support Lee's definition it seems:

“Grace in its highest definition is God in the Son to be enjoyed by us. It is not merely something done or given, but Christ Himself our portion glorious”
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Old 03-28-2018, 08:17 PM   #16
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So you support Lee's definition it seems:

“Grace in its highest definition is God in the Son to be enjoyed by us. It is not merely something done or given, but Christ Himself our portion glorious”
Amen my brother! Isn't WL the greatest?
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Old 03-28-2018, 08:23 PM   #17
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These are simply examples of LC leaders who obsess over the definition of grace yet completely miss the reality.
Talking about it does not translate to a corresponding reality.
In retrospect, how many turmoils in the local churches would have been negated by endless love and overflowing grace? That would have been the reality in Ohio's post. Instead there was contempt for the brothers who parted ways.
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Old 03-29-2018, 10:25 PM   #18
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No, it is plausible at least and you have not followed your own "ground rules" of an acceptable test. Let me remind you what you defined as the "acceptable test" in the OP:

"Acceptable tests to prove validity of statements include Bible verses (plural) and actual “church life” testimonials".

This seems an acceptable test to me given that Scripture could be considered "theory" and testimonies could be considered "observations" or "data gathering". Yet you have made your decision without considering Scripture.

It seems one needs both Scripture and testimony to be able to call the myth busted or confirmed. Given that I have provided solid foundation of scripture then the myth is at least plausible because no scripture can be found to deny the plausibility.

I provided a plurality of scripture as you requested, and no other poster so far has provided such a thing and in particular, nothing which refutes or denies the Scripture I posted. Every other poster so far has provided only running commentary and opinions, not personal testimony. This is not empirical evidence from experimental observations, this is opinion. On the real TV show they never confirm or bust a myth based only on the collective opinion of the group.

Here's a little challenge for you all:

Please provide a plurality of Scripture verses which defines Grace as "unmerited favor". Since I know you would not be able to find such a definition in the Scripture I cannot see how the myth can be busted. It is at least plausible and with the addition of general support from the idea found in Christianity leads to it possibly being confirmed.
Sorry in my rush to get to work I didn’t explain my reasoning for considering the original statements as Busted Myth. And, EV you are right the second of the two part statement “unmerited favor is too low” wasn’t thoroughly reviewed.

I loved that EV provided multiple scriptures to prove Grace is associated only with the person of Christ. However, I agreed based on multiple personal testimonials of actual local church events (also allowed by the rule) that “to be enjoyed by us”, which no one gave scriptural support for, was indeed supported by actual events to be too subjective versus the attributes of the person of Jesus we saw lived out in Jesus and His apostles “who went about doing good”, healing and raising the dead.

OK I’m not the only judge on this. I’m open to other assessments. But hate beating a dead
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Old 03-30-2018, 08:32 AM   #19
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So perhaps “unmerited favor is too low” is plausible at this point? At least until further evidence?

I recalled the song http://www.witness-lee-hymns.org/hymns/H0537.html
which stated Witness Lee’s emphasis on the subjective Christ. But, our audience suggested checks and balances as to where that subjective experience of Christ might lead.

I recall that Paul used the term grace when describing participating in the donation of money to help the saints in war torn Jerusalem.

While looking for that verse I found this: http://biblehub.com/philippians/1-11.htm.
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Old 03-30-2018, 04:24 PM   #20
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So perhaps “unmerited favor is too low” is plausible at this point? At least until further evidence?

I recalled the song http://www.witness-lee-hymns.org/hymns/H0537.html
which stated Witness Lee’s emphasis on the subjective Christ. But, our audience suggested checks and balances as to where that subjective experience of Christ might lead.

I recall that Paul used the term grace when describing participating in the donation of money to help the saints in war torn Jerusalem.

While looking for that verse I found this: http://biblehub.com/philippians/1-11.htm.

I understand Lee to mean defining grace apart from Christ is "too low" . Some may see Gods grace in his provision of material things only. But if we say that Grace is unmerited favor found in the person of Christ that is not so "low".

I believe Lees use of the terms high and low is merely to convey from which angle we view it. Low refers to humanities viewpoint and it sees what we can get from God. High refers to Gods viewpoint and is about what God has given.

Low: Grace is me getting lots of favor and blessings from God, both physical and spiritual
High: Grace is God giving His Son and the ability for us to know Him as Grace

Grace is a term that can allow multiple definitions and understandings. Like the term love. We could say that Agape love is higher than eros love and defining love as eros only would be "too low".
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Old 04-01-2018, 08:57 AM   #21
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I found the section of scripture that uses the term grace related to collecting and delivering money from Macedonian and Greek saints to suffering Jerusalem saints:

http://biblehub.com/blb/2_corinthians/8.htm

I also put the word grace into the search window of Bible Hub and a treasure trove of great old and New Testament verses came up.

Enjoying God’s grace to us is fantastic, but perhaps there is an objective standard in these verses: enjoying God’s grace to us in Christ should result in compassion and giving toward our fellow believers, “glory towards the Lord”, and “taking great care to do what is right, not only before the Lord, but also before men.”
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Old 04-02-2018, 06:12 AM   #22
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Praise God!
By grace we are saved!
http://biblehub.com/blb/ephesians/2.htm
Unmerited indeed!
Is favor too low a word for this?
We’ll be praising and thanking God forever. And, God will display the masterpiece of His workmanship for all to see in the ages to come.
No wonder we struggle to define grace.
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Old 04-03-2018, 09:48 AM   #23
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Quote:
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OK today I had the thought that this Local Church Discussions is a lot like the TV show Myth Busters https://mythresults.com/about-mythbusters

So let’s test this premise of Witness Lee:
“Grace in its highest definition is God in the Son to be enjoyed by us. It is not merely something done or given, but Christ Himself our portion glorious”
“Christianity's definition of grace as unmerited favor is too low”

Acceptable tests to prove validity of statements include Bible verses (plural) and actual “church life” testimonials of true events (plural) that demonstrate validity or not.

What say you? Myth or Truth. Busted, Plausible, or Confirmed?
This is the thing: Paul's teachings were in Greek, and the Greek words used had common meanings- this is what language is all about- terms with accepted common meanings. If Paul was trying to convey a WL definition, he would have written differently- different words. Paul used the saying "grace to you from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ" in all his epistles.
WL coming 1900 years later and trying to give an other than common definition to grace, and calling the common Greek definition low, is really saying that Paul had a low or incomplete understanding of grace. Particularly to those who view the scripture as "God breathed", of the Spirit, this would imply that Lee felt superior in understanding and his teachings were above original scripture. Do we see this thought carried out among Lee's disciples? Lee's definition actually alters the meaning Paul used in introducing his epistles. Paul did not use the phrase Grace to you from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ in a casual, hi, how are you, manner; it conveyed the Christian thought and the gospel.

I say myth, and distortion of truth, and the words of an upstart for Lee. Those who follow Lee and push LSM create their own reality, their own religion, and try to overlap their religion with actual scripture to gain converts.
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Old 04-03-2018, 03:58 PM   #24
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This is the thing: Paul's teachings were in Greek, and the Greek words used had common meanings- this is what language is all about- terms with accepted common meanings. If Paul was trying to convey a WL definition, he would have written differently- different words. Paul used the saying "grace to you from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ" in all his epistles.
WL coming 1900 years later and trying to give an other than common definition to grace, and calling the common Greek definition low, is really saying that Paul had a low or incomplete understanding of grace. Particularly to those who view the scripture as "God breathed", of the Spirit, this would imply that Lee felt superior in understanding and his teachings were above original scripture. Do we see this thought carried out among Lee's disciples? Lee's definition actually alters the meaning Paul used in introducing his epistles. Paul did not use the phrase Grace to you from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ in a casual, hi, how are you, manner; it conveyed the Christian thought and the gospel.

I say myth, and distortion of truth, and the words of an upstart for Lee. Those who follow Lee and push LSM create their own reality, their own religion, and try to overlap their religion with actual scripture to gain converts.

There is no one clear definition of grace. Even Pauls is different from others.
It is explained in detail here..
https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/grace/

Here are 7 definitions:

Grace [T] [B]:
Of form or person ( Proverbs 1:9 ; 3:22 ; Psalms 45:2 ).
Favour, kindness, friendship ( Genesis 6:8 ; 18:3 ; 19:19 ; 2 Tim 1:9 ).
God's forgiving mercy ( Romans 11:6 ; Ephesians 2:5 ).
The gospel as distinguished from the law ( John 1:17 ; Romans 6:14 ; 1 Peter 5:12 ).
Gifts freely bestowed by God; as miracles, prophecy, tongues ( Romans 15:15 ; 1 Corinthians 15:10 ; Ephesians 3:8 ).
Christian virtues ( 2 Corinthians 8:7 ; 2 Pet 3:18 ).
The glory hereafter to be revealed ( 1 Peter 1:13 ).
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Old 04-07-2018, 07:53 AM   #25
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Thanks for posting the link to the excellent review of the Old and New Testament uses of the words translated to English as grace Evangelical and more Bible references.

After all this, I have to say regarding the original Lee definition of grace:

First sentence - “Busted”, again as being too subjective without the objective proofs of God’s outworking of His grace in our lives evidenced by:
  1. sanctification and righteousness in all we do
  2. power of the Holy Spirit
  3. ministry to felllow members for building up
  4. good works to our neighbors
  5. giving all credit, praise, and glory to God for anything and everything He does through us

Second sentence: Plausable

Thanks to all who contributed to the discussion. I believe this is an example of the power of dialogue among believers with different views, which this web site promotes, toward gaining more insight into Bible truth.
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Old 04-07-2018, 11:19 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Boxjobox View Post
This is the thing: Paul's teachings were in Greek, and the Greek words used had common meanings- this is what language is all about- terms with accepted common meanings. If Paul was trying to convey a WL definition, he would have written differently- different words. Paul used the saying "grace to you from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ" in all his epistles.
WL coming 1900 years later and trying to give an other than common definition to grace, and calling the common Greek definition low, is really saying that Paul had a low or incomplete understanding of grace. Particularly to those who view the scripture as "God breathed", of the Spirit, this would imply that Lee felt superior in understanding and his teachings were above original scripture. Do we see this thought carried out among Lee's disciples? Lee's definition actually alters the meaning Paul used in introducing his epistles. Paul did not use the phrase Grace to you from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ in a casual, hi, how are you, manner; it conveyed the Christian thought and the gospel.

I say myth, and distortion of truth, and the words of an upstart for Lee. Those who follow Lee and push LSM create their own reality, their own religion, and try to overlap their religion with actual scripture to gain converts.
I guess we'd understand Paul better if we had transcripts of his speaking's to the churches. Then we'd be on the 'inside' of his words, of the little bit that have come down to us today.

There's been attempts to fill that missing information in. There's the 3rd Epistle to the Corinthians, and a letter back to Paul, from the Corinthians, that are pseudepigraphal and apocryphal, respectively.

But Evangelical has got it when it comes to the meaning(s) of grace. I can look up every use of the word grace in my Bible study software, and it verifies all the meanings Evangelical listed.

Maybe we can't know what Paul was thinking, concerning the word grace, but we do have context to help us understand what he prolly meant.

Personally, and I suppose subjectively, I'm delighted that I'm saved by grace. Cuz if it depended on me ... there'd be no hope.
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Old 04-10-2018, 09:06 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
There is no one clear definition of grace. Even Pauls is different from others.
It is explained in detail here..
https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/grace/

Here are 7 definitions:

Grace [T] [B]:
Of form or person ( Proverbs 1:9 ; 3:22 ; Psalms 45:2 ).
Favour, kindness, friendship ( Genesis 6:8 ; 18:3 ; 19:19 ; 2 Tim 1:9 ).
God's forgiving mercy ( Romans 11:6 ; Ephesians 2:5 ).
The gospel as distinguished from the law ( John 1:17 ; Romans 6:14 ; 1 Peter 5:12 ).
Gifts freely bestowed by God; as miracles, prophecy, tongues ( Romans 15:15 ; 1 Corinthians 15:10 ; Ephesians 3:8 ).
Christian virtues ( 2 Corinthians 8:7 ; 2 Pet 3:18 ).
The glory hereafter to be revealed ( 1 Peter 1:13 ).
All of these lie within the Greek meaning of grace as used at the time of writings.
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Old 04-12-2018, 09:34 PM   #28
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So for Myth Busters LCD Style Program 2 let's take up what awareness posted (Post #20) on the DCP thread from the DCP's copyrighted quote of "what Ron Kangas really said about "The Acting God" (please read that Post in its entirety for the complete DCP quote):

Following quotes and commentary on Phil 1:20-21; 3:9, 2 Cor 4:2, Gal 2:20, John 17:17 and John 14:6 then concerning 2 Cor. 5:20 - "On behalf of Christ then we are 'ambassadors, as God entreats you through us ; we beseech you on behalf of Christ, Be reconciled to God" footnote 1 on verse 5:20 "The apostles were commissioned with a definite ministry, to represent Christ to accomplish God's purpose
For Paul to say that God was entreating the believers in Corinth through the apostles means that the apostles were one with God and with His desire to reconcile believers to Himself, not accounting their offenses to them, and putting in us the word of reconciliation. In this sense they were the acting God."

So in the context of 2 Cor. 5:20, is the bolded part (I bolded it) Myth?

Acceptable tests to prove validity include Bible verses (plural) and actual "church life" testimonials of true events (plural) that demonstrate validity or not.

And recall I liken this to the TV show Myth Busters:
https://mythresults.com/about-mythbusters

What say you? Myth or Truth. Busted, Plausible, or Confirmed
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Old 04-13-2018, 02:41 AM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ View Post
So for Myth Busters LCD Style Program 2 let's take up what awareness posted (Post #20) on the DCP thread from the DCP's copyrighted quote of "what Ron Kangas really said about "The Acting God" (please read that Post in its entirety for the complete DCP quote):

Following quotes and commentary on Phil 1:20-21; 3:9, 2 Cor 4:2, Gal 2:20, John 17:17 and John 14:6 then concerning 2 Cor. 5:20 - "On behalf of Christ then we are 'ambassadors, as God entreats you through us ; we beseech you on behalf of Christ, Be reconciled to God" footnote 1 on verse 5:20 "The apostles were commissioned with a definite ministry, to represent Christ to accomplish God's purpose

For Paul to say that God was entreating the believers in Corinth through the apostles means that the apostles were one with God and with His desire to reconcile believers to Himself, not accounting their offenses to them, and putting in us the word of reconciliation. In this sense they were the acting God."

So in the context of 2 Cor. 5:20, is the bolded part (I bolded it) Myth?

Acceptable tests to prove validity include Bible verses (plural) and actual "church life" testimonials of true events (plural) that demonstrate validity or not.
I say there are at least three ways to answer.

1. There is only one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. All other mediatory agencies are obviated. ~1 Timothy 2:5

2. The Centurion said to Jesus (through his ambassadors), "I also am a man under authority, and I tell this one, 'Go', and he goes, and another, 'Come', and he comes, and another, 'Do this' and he does it."

The Centurion was the ambassador of Caesar, and everything he spoke had the weight of Caesar. Thus the servants obeyed without hesitation. He knew Jesus was also an ambassador from God ("No one can do the things you do unless he comes from God" ~John 3:2). The Centurion knew that Jesus could simply speak a word and his servant would be healed. Jesus' response clearly validated the speaking of the Centurion.

3. God also uses messengers as mediators. "God made it known by sending His angel to His servant John" ~Revelation 1:1

Also look at the angel Gabriel speaking to John's father Zecharias, and to Mary, and the angels to the shepherds keeping watch over the flocks at night, as the gospel narratives opened. None of this disappeared from the consciousnesses of the writers of the NT, as we can see in Revelation 1:1. It was understood and continually referenced from the start of the gospels to the end of the NT (see, e.g., where the angel let Peter out of jail).
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God uses mediators, or agents. All of us are "anointed"; all can proclaim the good news, and heal, and teach, and shepherd, and comfort. All of us should. There is no "deputy God" the way the LSM teaches. This supposed elevation of Paul as some 'super-apostle' above all the rest is pure fiction. Only the simple and gullible would bite on that hook. By now this is plain (see Steve Isitt's 'Hiding History' essay) that it's a vehicle for some to dominate the flock. Only those who are willing to be dominated will let themselves be sucked in by the argument. The rest should see that this is a ruse, used by those who wish to spy out our freedom and lead us back into slavery. ~Gal 2:4-13

When the disciples began to argue about which of them was deputy God, Jesus put an end to it, right quick. Why re-visit the subject? It's dead; it's busted myth. Drop it.
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Old 04-13-2018, 05:49 AM   #30
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Quote:
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For Paul to say that God was entreating the believers in Corinth through the apostles means that the apostles were one with God and with His desire to reconcile believers to Himself, not accounting their offenses to them, and putting in us the word of reconciliation. In this sense they were the acting God."
IIRC, the first time I heard mention of this "acting God" nonsense came during the I Samuel Training, and referred to Samuel. WL may have introduced this locally prior to that, referring to Paul.

This evil myth is no different than the Catholic teachings concerning the Pope. Supposedly he is the "Vicar" of Christ, His earthly representative, conflicting with the Spirit of Jesus, who is His true representative. Coupled with this is their "infallibility" doctrine which both the Pope and the MOTA enjoy, which only serves to place their own teachings above that of Scripture.

Those of us in the Midwest LC's watched this unfold first hand. Lee's minions at LSM were permitted to violate scripture regularly to carry out their heretical and divisive quarantines and lawsuits in all the Midwest LC's.

One little known irony about this is when Israel clamored for a king, which btw was offensive to Jehovah, it was because Samuel's children were so bad, "turning aside after lucre, taking bribes, perverting justice." ( I Samuel 8) In this regard the sons of WL were similar to those of Eli and Samuel. (I Samuel 1)
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Old 04-15-2018, 04:00 PM   #31
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The Acting God? Not
The term “The Acting God”, let’s examine it.
First of all “The”. Why is the capitalized article here? Did the apostles ever use this term about themselves? “The anything”? No, it was always “an apostle”, “apostles, “ambassadors”, or better yet “imitators of God” (see below). So, let’s ditch it.
Second “Acting”. Today’s English definition of “Acting” as a noun is “the art or practice of representing a character on a stage or before cameras, according to Merriam-Webster.” As an adjective it is “temporarily doing the duties of another person.”
Several New Testament verses say the apostles, and the believers who follow them are imitators of God and of the Lord:
Ephesians 5:1 http://biblehub.com/ephesians/5-1.htm
1 Thessalonians 1:6 http://biblehub.com/1_thessalonians/1-6.htm
Hebrews 6:12 http://biblehub.com/hebrews/6-12.htm
The Greek word in all of these verses is mimétés. The definition of which is seen in the following link: http://biblehub.com/greek/3402.htm
So is “acting” the same as “being an imitator”? Close, but not exactly. So, let’s ditch the word “acting” and use “imitators” with the definition given above.
Third “God”. Besides saying they were imitators of God, ambassadors of Christ, sons or children of God, did the aposles ever use the term God when describing themselves? Of course not. They would find it reprehensible for Christ’s followers to think of them as God or gods. Acts 14:8-18 http://biblehub.com/bsb/acts/14.htm and Acts 3:12; 4:8-12 .
Although the people regarded the apostles highly, the believers were brought to the Lord Acts 5:12-1; 9:34 ;11:24 and directed to pray to the Lord Acts 8:22.
They did say that they “spoke the word of God” and that the believers received as such, and not the word of men 1 Thessalonians 2:13 http://biblehub.com/bsb/1_thessalonians/2.htm.
Also, Paul was said to be Jesus’ “chosen instrument to carry His name before the Gentiles and their kings, and before the people of Israel. Acts 9:15.
So, let’s be very careful and only say exactly what the Bible says about the apostles and ditch the term “The Acting God” for them.
So, since close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades, and the apostles want us to not miss the mark (1 Timothy 1:6;6:21; 2 Tim 2:18 http://biblehub.com/greek/795.htm ), let’s stick to what they said and not invent our own terms like Witness Lee did.
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Old Yesterday, 09:34 PM   #32
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OK, since discussion of Program 2 died out, and the gospel was always about God, His Christ, and God's gift of the Holy Spirit not the apostles. How dare anyone, even an apostle including Paul or Lee shift the focus to the messengers rather than the message!
I'll opine that the apostles as "acting god" is Myth based on both empirical (actual local church experiences of where this leads) and scriptural evidence to the contrary.

I've got an idea for Program 3 (Lee's definition of God's eternal purpose). But, does anyone else want to offer a topic first?

We need not restrict statements to test to Nee, Lee, or their followers. There are plenty of other ministries to discuss and possibly debunk too. I just tend to focus on Nee, Lee, and their followers because of this web site's title and my own 37 year association with their teachings and practices.
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Old Today, 02:42 AM   #33
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JJ,

To me the most popular program might be the most profitable. I'd recommend busting the myth of the "high peak gospel"; conversely the proposition that there is a "low" gospel. Those are subjective assessments made by a man whose self interest (promoting his ministry and himself as minister) caused bias in terms like "high" and "low".

If you look at Paul's epistle to the Roman's, he repeatedly associated the word "gospel" with the resurrection. See e.g., Rom 1:1-4 with verse 16 (connecting word is 'power' - the power that raised Jesus from the dead). See also the confession of faith. "If you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that God has raised him from the dead you will be saved"
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