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Old 08-24-2011, 11:13 AM   #1
zeek
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Default Perry and Palin tied to Dominion Movement

Rick Perry and Sarah Palin allegedly have close ties to a radical Christian movement known as the New Apostolic Reformation that practices exorcism of demons and practices "spiritual warfare" against other religions. The beliefs of this group are far more extreme than the evangelicalism epoused by George W. Bush. It is scary to think that either Palin or Perry could be elected President of the US given their extreme views. The movement's agenda is to achieve "dominion" over the arts, business, education, family, government, media, and religion.
Two ministries in the movement planned and orchestrated Texas Gov. Rick Perry's recent prayer rally, where apostles and prophets from around the nation spoke or appeared onstage. The event was patterned after The Call, held at locations around the globe and led by Lou Engle, who has served in the Apostolic Council of Prophetic Elders of the NAR. Other NAR apostles endorsed Perry's event, including two who lead a 50-state "prayer warrior" network. Thomas Muthee, the Kenyan pastor who anointed Sarah Palin at the Wasilla Assembly of God Church in 2005, while praying for Jesus to protect her from the spirit of witchcraft, is also part of this movement. Source: Fresh Air with Terry Gross
http://www.talk2action.org/story/2011/8/12/18559/6431

Last edited by zeek; 08-24-2011 at 11:16 AM. Reason: syntax
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Old 08-24-2011, 11:33 AM   #2
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Default Re: Perry and Palin tied to Dominion Movement

You are worried about Dominionism, and we got a Muslim in the White House? Do you have any idea what "scary" really means? Sarah Palin has other issues, but these "extreme views" should be of little concern to conservative Christians.

I used to listen to Terry Gross of Fresh Air, until I so sick of her ramming her liberal bias down our throats.
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Old 08-24-2011, 01:17 PM   #3
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Default Re: Perry and Palin tied to Dominion Movement

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You are worried about Dominionism, and we got a Muslim in the White House? Do you have any idea what "scary" really means? Sarah Palin has other issues, but these "extreme views" should be of little concern to conservative Christians.

I used to listen to Terry Gross of Fresh Air, until I so sick of her ramming her liberal bias down our throats.
Obama is a professing Christian just like you. Do you have some reliable evidence to prove otherwise? What if he was a muslim? Are we having a clash of civilizations with them? Wasn't the killing of Osama Bin Laden under Obama's direction enough for you?

If the reports are true, these folks do not believe in religious freedom. They drive stakes into the grounds of mosques and Masonic Temples in order to bring down the principalities and powers that control these religions. It sounds more extreme then Witness Lee and the Local Churches to me.
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Old 08-24-2011, 01:24 PM   #4
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Default Re: Perry and Palin tied to Dominion Movement

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You are worried about Dominionism, and we got a Muslim in the White House? Do you have any idea what "scary" really means? Sarah Palin has other issues, but these "extreme views" should be of little concern to conservative Christians.

I used to listen to Terry Gross of Fresh Air, until I so sick of her ramming her liberal bias down our throats.
Come on now, Obama is a Christian. Whether or not you support him, you should at least accept that fact.
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Old 08-24-2011, 01:33 PM   #5
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Default Re: Perry and Palin tied to Dominion Movement

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Obama is a professing Christian just like you. Do you have some reliable evidence to prove otherwise? What if he was a muslim? Are we having a clash of civilizations with them? Wasn't the killing of Osama Bin Laden under Obama's direction enough for you?
Obama is a not a professing Christian like me. The killing of Osama Bin Hiding did nothing for Obama's faith. Did you know that over 80% of the Muslims wanted him dead too?

I watched a film clip and Obama said, "My Muslim faith." I am not going by what others have said, but what he has said.

Secondly, I pay little attention to what politicians say. They are all liars. Pay attention, not to what they say, but what they do. That's how you can know them.
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Old 08-24-2011, 01:41 PM   #6
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Default Re: Perry and Palin tied to Dominion Movement

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Come on now, Obama is a Christian. Whether or not you support him, you should at least accept that fact.
There is no fact to accept. Did you know that he has quoted the Koran more times than the bible since he took office?

Here's a short article by Youssef that my wife recently showed me --
Quote:
There was a time when Americans sought presidents who did not just claim to be Christians; they also looked for candidates who reflected Christ in their daily lives. This does not appear to be the case anymore.

Leading into this election, the secular media mocks candidates who have a genuine faith in Christ -- and heaven help candidates who seek to live out their Christian faith. In fact, today, some in the media have reached such a low point that true Christian faith is viewed as a liability rather than an asset.

In the past, some candidates have used Christians to get nominated and elected, but once in the halls of the White House, their aides refer to evangelicals, the very people who elected them, as “nuts.”

Understandably, some Christians feel jaded by politicians who claim to be Christians and yet act and govern in a way that communicates that they are ashamed of the true Christian faith.

The current president claims to be a Christian, yet he hardly goes to church. He forgets to issue an Easter proclamation, but he never forgets a Ramadan proclamation. He mocks some biblical passages and he seldom quotes the Bible, but he is forever quoting what he calls the “holy Qur’an.” He is all for aborting babies, changing the order of God’s creation by undermining the Defense of Marriage Act, and having government bureaucracies take over the church’s charitable role -- and the list goes on and on.

Christians are not looking for perfection in a candidate; we know that only one perfect man/God ever walked the earth. But we are looking for candidates who are truthful and whose claims match their lives.

From my experience, American Christians are very forgiving when our leaders experience moral or ethical failures -- but only if these leaders are truly repentant and exhibit humility. However, when leaders cover up their moral and ethical failures with self-righteousness, that does not bode well with us and we feel betrayed.

No one can see into another man’s heart. While I don’t have a dog in the fight, or a preferred candidate, I would caution my fellow believers to understand that what a candidate believes deeply will be reflected not only in their lives, but also in their policies -- impacting our nation. “Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks” (Luke 6:45).
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Old 08-24-2011, 01:53 PM   #7
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Default Re: Perry and Palin tied to Dominion Movement

Guys, let's not make politics a "hot topic" on the forum. This started out about "a radical Christian movement" and has gone downhill fast from there.

Yu'all need to remember that I'm the kind of guy that clings to my religion and my delete button
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Old 08-24-2011, 01:56 PM   #8
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Default Re: Perry and Palin tied to Dominion Movement

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There is no fact to accept. Did you know that he has quoted the Koran more times than the bible since he took office?

Here's a short article by Youssef that my wife recently showed me --
What if Obama were a muslim? Are we having a clash of civilizations with muslims?

If the reports are true, Dominionists do not believe in religious freedom. Do you?
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Old 08-24-2011, 02:37 PM   #9
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Default Re: Perry and Palin tied to Dominion Movement

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What if Obama were a muslim? Are we having a clash of civilizations with muslims?

If the reports are true, Dominionists do not believe in religious freedom. Do you?
God practices free will. Dominionists have a god complex, but not the real God, who is not a dominionist. Freedom should dominate.
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Old 08-24-2011, 03:08 PM   #10
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Default Re: Perry and Palin tied to Dominion Movement

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What if Obama were a muslim? Are we having a clash of civilizations with muslims?

If the reports are true, Dominionists do not believe in religious freedom. Do you?
Islam has clashed with every civilization on earth. They started their religion by the edge of the sword. Today, they have advanced all the way to "belly bombs."

No, I don't believe in religious freedom. God desires all men to be saved.
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Old 08-24-2011, 03:31 PM   #11
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Default Re: Perry and Palin tied to Dominion Movement

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I watched a film clip and Obama said, "My Muslim faith." I am not going by what others have said, but what he has said.
Care to settle this once and for all by providing a link?
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Old 08-24-2011, 03:33 PM   #12
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No, I don't believe in religious freedom. God desires all men to be saved.
..Yikes!..
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Old 08-24-2011, 03:57 PM   #13
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Default Re: Perry and Palin tied to Dominion Movement

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Care to settle this once and for all by providing a link?
I saw it on TV, but a search brought up this link --

http://texasfred.net/archives/7453

The second clip is even more scary.
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Old 08-24-2011, 04:42 PM   #14
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Default Re: Perry and Palin tied to Dominion Movement

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I saw it on TV, but a search brought up this link --

http://texasfred.net/archives/7453

The second clip is even more scary.
Lame ... reaching ... and non-conclusive.

Why don't you just call him the black anti-Christ and get it over with? There's lots of youtube on that.
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Old 08-24-2011, 04:47 PM   #15
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Default Re: Perry and Palin tied to Dominion Movement

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I saw it on TV, but a search brought up this link --

http://texasfred.net/archives/7453

The second clip is even more scary.
I remember watching Prophesy in the News when this guy Avi was on w/Gary Stearman. I also remember watching the video of George S interviewing Obama when he was talking about his Muslim Faith..in which George gently corrected him to say 'Christian' Faith.

I also remember Obama's speech in May/June, a few months ago when he emphatically stated Jerusalem should be divided and be returned to the way it was before 1967. Benjamin Netanyahu then spoke to Congress and the world saying NO WAY Jose! He then had a private meeting w/Obama and both emerged saying it was productive until Benjamin w/respect put Obama in his place regarding Jerusalem.

Thanks for sharing the videos w/us Ohio.
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Old 08-24-2011, 04:50 PM   #16
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Default Re: Perry and Palin tied to Dominion Movement

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Lame ... reaching ... and non-conclusive.

Why don't you just call him the black anti-Christ and get it over with? There's lots of youtube on that.
I never met a believer who could mess up and say "my Muslim faith," but then again, I never met a pastor who could shout from the pulpit, "not God bless American, but God d**n America!"

And to think that some people still believe he showed us his original birth certificate.
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Old 08-24-2011, 04:52 PM   #17
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Default Re: Perry and Palin tied to Dominion Movement

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I remember watching Prophesy in the News when this guy Avi was on w/Gary Stearman. I also remember watching the video of George S interviewing Obama when he was talking about his Muslim Faith..in which George gently corrected him to say 'Christian' Faith.

Thanks for sharing the videos w/us Ohio.
Yeah, good ole George Stuffitupuross was there to spin it to appear "presidential."
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Old 08-24-2011, 04:55 PM   #18
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Default Re: Perry and Palin tied to Dominion Movement

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Lame ... reaching ... and non-conclusive.
I disagree. Not lame at all... but then you would know I would feel this way right Harold?

Quote:
Why don't you just call him the black anti-Christ and get it over with? There's lots of youtube on that.
the Black anti-Christ ???

Have you checked out the websites on 'the BLACK Pope' Awareness ?
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Old 08-24-2011, 06:31 PM   #19
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Default Re: Perry and Palin tied to Dominion Movement

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I disagree. Not lame at all... but then you would know I would feel this way right Harold?

the Black anti-Christ ???

Have you checked out the websites on 'the BLACK Pope' Awareness ?
You'll have to be more specific :

Black Pope may refer to:

A derogatory term for the Superior General of the Society of Jesus
A title used to refer to Anton LaVey
A nickname used by former WWE wrestler Elijah Burke
The air name of American radio disc jockey Shelley Pope
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Old 08-24-2011, 07:14 PM   #20
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Default Re: Perry and Palin tied to Dominion Movement

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Guys, let's not make politics a "hot topic" on the forum. This started out about "a radical Christian movement" and has gone downhill fast from there.

Yu'all need to remember that I'm the kind of guy that clings to my religion and my delete button
I think it's good that some of this stuff gets to be said.

We'll try to behave ourselves, if you don't hit the "delete button."
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Old 08-24-2011, 07:22 PM   #21
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Rick Perry and Sarah Palin allegedly have close ties to a radical Christian movement known as the New Apostolic Reformation that practices exorcism of demons and practices "spiritual warfare" against other religions. The beliefs of this group are far more extreme than the evangelicalism epoused by George W. Bush. It is scary to think that either Palin or Perry could be elected President of the US given their extreme views. The movement's agenda is to achieve "dominion" over the arts, business, education, family, government, media, and religion.
There are lots of Christians affected by dominionism, which I understand to be Christians invading major areas of society on behalf of the kingdom of God.

I don't necessarily believe the kingdom will come as they say, but don't see how their ideas should be of concern to you. Radical movements in Christianity come and go like the wind.

Approx. half of evangelical Christians are full-gospel pentecostals, of various strains. Many cast out demons and wage spiritual warfare. How is that any different than the book of Acts?
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Old 08-24-2011, 07:33 PM   #22
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We'll try to behave ourselves, if you don't hit the "delete button."

No, it's the other way around. If you guys behave I won't have to hit the delete button. (like I ever do)

**Ohio knows me so I can razz him like this.

Seriously though, I'm all for breaking up the monotony and tediousness of discussions revolving around one dominant topic. But political wrangling has a tendency to distract all of us from the main purpose of this community.

If some of you feel different (don't bother Harold I already know you do) then maybe some other threads could be opened.
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Old 08-24-2011, 07:42 PM   #23
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No, it's the other way around. If you guys behave I won't have to hit the delete button. (like I ever do)

**Ohio knows me so I can razz him like this.

Seriously though, I'm all for breaking up the monotony and tediousness of discussions revolving around one dominant topic. But political wrangling has a tendency to distract all of us from the main purpose of this community.

If some of you feel different (don't bother Harold I already know you do) then maybe some other threads could be opened.
Actually Unto, I like to discuss politics, but I feel the way you do. Witness and his movement is muddy enough, but politics is full-blown mud wrestling. Politics is FUBR, as is Capital Hillarious.

However, the New Apostolic Reformation is another matter. They're cult like, like the LRC. And a little wacky too.

I hate to beat a dead horse but, when will the Lord save us from these wacky, wacky, wacky, Christians? Is there no end to 'em?
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Old 08-24-2011, 08:45 PM   #24
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Actually Unto, I like to discuss politics, but I feel the way you do. Witness and his movement is muddy enough, but politics is full-blown mud wrestling. Politics is FUBR, as is Capital Hillarious.

However, the New Apostolic Reformation is another matter. They're cult like, like the LRC. And a little wacky too.

I hate to beat a dead horse but, when will the Lord save us from these wacky, wacky, wacky, Christians? Is there no end to 'em?
I see absolutely no reason to believe that our elected officials are capable of solving our major issues. It seems to me that the corporate world has already begun to bank on our demise. They fund these campaigns (a billion dollars for president, is that the current cost?) with no other motive than to get that money back several fold over. Whether tax cuts or govt contracts.

World oil production peaked in 2008 (best estimate). The decline in oil production on a yearly basis will be an ugly thing to experience. But I don't have time to discuss the impending bankruptcy or Govt malfeasance or even global meltdown due to peak oil. I have to get ready for the hurricane and the earthquake kind of messed with my schedule.
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Old 08-25-2011, 07:09 AM   #25
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No, I don't believe in religious freedom. God desires all men to be saved.
I'm not use to this. Usually it's me rubbing bro Ohio the wrong way. Now it's the other way around.

Ever since I read this statement quoted by Ohio above I've been disturbed. Ohio says by the way I talk I don't need God. And he's right but wrong. He's right that I don't need any man depicted god.

And now bro Ohio makes a statement that indicates he believes in a dictatorial God, or that God is dictator.

And it's clear from the beginning, ever since the garden, that God is not a dictator ; that God allows and endorses freedom of choice ; that God is into freedom.

So bro Ohio, chalk up one God I don't need, or want, and that is a God that is a dictator. Nor do I want it in my gov'ment, even if it's pure Christianity.

Can you imagine the Living Stream Ministry running our gov'ment? As bro Ray stated : YIKES!!!
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Old 08-25-2011, 07:30 AM   #26
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Default Re: Perry and Palin tied to Dominion Movement

Quote:
Ohio wrote:
No, I don't believe in religious freedom. God desires all men to be saved.


Quote:
Awareness wrote:
Ever since I read this statement quoted by Ohio above I've been disturbed.
Harold,
You're 'disturbed'!!!! So you finally admit it !! Took you long enough!! Glad you are finally coming around to your senses Man !!!

Seriously though....
You don't understand what Ohio is saying. He is speaking just as Jesus spoke to the religious people and they did not get what He meant. They did not understand because they did not have REVELATION from GOD. Religious 'freedom' is not freedom at all. But one needs Divine Revelation to 'get it'. Really !! No joke!

CMW
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Old 08-25-2011, 09:16 AM   #27
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Harold,
You're 'disturbed'!!!! So you finally admit it !! Took you long enough!! Glad you are finally coming around to your senses Man !!!
... rotflmao ... Whoops, that slipped out ...

Quote:
Seriously though....
You don't understand what Ohio is saying. He is speaking just as Jesus spoke to the religious people and they did not get what He meant. They did not understand because they did not have REVELATION from GOD. Religious 'freedom' is not freedom at all. But one needs Divine Revelation to 'get it'. Really !! No joke!
Yes, but God doesn't ram it down our throats. He allows us freedom of choice. He's not a dictator...

And we tried Christianity running the gov'ment. It's called the dark ages.
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Old 08-25-2011, 09:30 AM   #28
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... rotflmao ... Whoops, that slipped out ....
No it didn't ! We all know you already !!

Quote:
Yes, but God doesn't ram it down our throats. He allows us freedom of choice. He's not a dictator...

And we tried Christianity running the gov'ment. It's called the dark ages.
Ohio never said God rams His Word down our throats! We may have 'Freedom of Choice' but God knows His Own and we know His Voice. What helped me to understand why some people choose to follow the Lord Jesus and others don't is when I finally understood the 2 seeds that parallel themselves from Genesis to Revelation : The SEED of the WOMAN and the Seed of the Serpent. When you 'get it', then you understand why God sometimes appears as a 'MEAN' God.
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Old 08-25-2011, 09:44 AM   #29
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Islam has clashed with every civilization on earth. They started their religion by the edge of the sword. Today, they have advanced all the way to "belly bombs."

No, I don't believe in religious freedom. God desires all men to be saved.
You believe that but you don't know. In the absence of ultimate knowledge, shouldn't each person be free to arrive at his/her own opinion on matters of ultimate truth?
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Old 08-25-2011, 09:48 AM   #30
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I saw it on TV, but a search brought up this link --

http://texasfred.net/archives/7453

The second clip is even more scary.
If you have never made a slip of the tongue that misrepresented your true feelings, feel free to cast the first stone.
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Old 08-25-2011, 02:58 PM   #31
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No, I don't believe in religious freedom. God desires all men to be saved.
Hey folks, "religious freedom" is today's code words for letting Muslims take over our country. I believe they should have the exact same "religious freedom" that Christians have in Moslem countries.
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Old 08-25-2011, 03:04 PM   #32
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You believe that but you don't know. In the absence of ultimate knowledge, shouldn't each person be free to arrive at his/her own opinion on matters of ultimate truth?
Don't tell me what I don't know. I do know this because I read history and watch the news. "Religious freedom" has nothing to do with "each person being free to arrive at his/her own opinion." "Religious freedom" is what liberal courts and liberal policy makers tell us we can believe.
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Old 08-25-2011, 03:09 PM   #33
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If you have never made a slip of the tongue that misrepresented your true feelings, feel free to cast the first stone.
T'was no slip of tongue, he just forgot to use his teleprompter.

Who is throwing stones? Is calling a Muslim a Muslim throwing a stone?

Let's just be honest about who we elected to the White House. Is that too hard?
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Old 08-25-2011, 06:27 PM   #34
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Hey folks, "religious freedom" is today's code words for letting Muslims take over our country. I believe they should have the exact same "religious freedom" that Christians have in Moslem countries.
So turning the other cheek is not for you?
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Old 08-25-2011, 06:30 PM   #35
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T'was no slip of tongue, he just forgot to use his teleprompter.

Who is throwing stones? Is calling a Muslim a Muslim throwing a stone?

Let's just be honest about who we elected to the White House. Is that too hard?
Yeah, we elected the anti-Christ, Muslim, Marxist, so******t, commie, Nazi, black feller.

What's with the asterisks? Is s-o-c-i-a-l-i-s-m a bad word? Jesus was a s-o-c-i-a-l-i-s-t...
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Old 08-25-2011, 06:35 PM   #36
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Yeah, we elected the anti-Christ, Muslim, Marxist, so******t, commie, black feller.

What's with the asterisks? Is so******m a bad word. Jesus was a so******t....
Whoa ... chill there fella ... slow down ...

Can't we reason together like adults without you getting all emotional?
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Old 08-25-2011, 06:52 PM   #37
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Actually Unto, I like to discuss politics, but I feel the way you do. Witness and his movement is muddy enough, but politics is full-blown mud wrestling.
Ok then, I'm bout ready to pull out the hose and spray both of you guys off. But I'd rather you voluntarily come out of the pit and go your separate ways. I knew I should have nipped this one in the bud. Darn darn, I'm such a softy.
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Old 08-25-2011, 07:23 PM   #38
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Ok then, I'm bout ready to pull out the hose and spray both of you guys off. But I'd rather you voluntarily come out of the pit and go your separate ways. I knew I should have nipped this one in the bud. Darn darn, I'm such a softy.
Witness Lee is mud wrestling. Politics is wrestling in fecal matter....
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Old 08-26-2011, 01:04 AM   #39
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Don't tell me what I don't know. I do know this because I read history and watch the news. "Religious freedom" has nothing to do with "each person being free to arrive at his/her own opinion." "Religious freedom" is what liberal courts and liberal policy makers tell us we can believe.
Did they tell you you can believe that?
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Old 08-26-2011, 05:31 AM   #40
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Did they tell you you can believe that?
This thread is about the New Apostolic Reformation movement.

I have a mission for our dear bro Ohio. Yer out of the LC. Go join this New Apostolic Reformation movement, and give your life to it, and report back to us about it. Your time in the crazy local church movement, and the fact they espouse your political views, should allow you to fit right in.

Another option could be "The Family" or Fellowship, where you can be part of the movement in upper gov'ment around the world, to establish Christianity as the dominate world religion ... with their "invisible hand" control of economics.
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Old 08-26-2011, 06:42 AM   #41
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This thread is about the New Apostolic Reformation movement.

I have a mission for our dear bro Ohio. Yer out of the LC. Go join this New Apostolic Reformation movement, and give your life to it, and report back to us about it. Your time in the crazy local church movement, and the fact they espouse your political views, should allow you to fit right in.

Another option could be "The Family" or Fellowship, where you can be part of the movement in upper gov'ment around the world, to establish Christianity as the dominate world religion ... with their "invisible hand" control of economics.
For someone who doesn't like the God described by man you sure like to play God and give out missions to others.
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Old 08-26-2011, 06:49 AM   #42
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Don't tell me what I don't know. I do know this because I read history and watch the news. "Religious freedom" has nothing to do with "each person being free to arrive at his/her own opinion." "Religious freedom" is what liberal courts and liberal policy makers tell us we can believe.
Before everyone hyperventilates over this comment, the Constitution quotes the Bible and was clearly influenced by the Bible. Likewise the law of this country says it is illegal to kill. That is consistent with the 10 commandments. However, there were pagan religions in the past that had human sacrifice. Would "freedom of religion" give them the right to kill? Similarly, religious leaders in the Muslim religion issue orders to murder people they don't like, observant followers have tried to carry out those orders and sometimes been successful. Does our constitution give them the right to do that? In a country that observes Sharia law that would not be considered illegal, but in this country it is. Clearly, there are many instances where we do not have "freedom of religion" but rather it is what the judiciary defines it as. How about abortion, is that legal or illegal? The Judiciary has to first define at which point a baby is "human" since it is illegal to kill people. To do that they must play God. How about Polygamy? That is part of the Mormon religion but they don't have the freedom to practice it in the vast majority of the United States.

So I think there are many examples in this country of "the freedom of religion" being defined by the judiciary.
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Old 08-26-2011, 07:09 AM   #43
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Hey folks, "religious freedom" is today's code words for letting Muslims take over our country. I believe they should have the exact same "religious freedom" that Christians have in Moslem countries.
Recently a Mosque opened about 5 blocks from where I meet. Our congregation has 3 parking lots (which we purchased) and an arrangement for members to park in a fourth lot (which we pay for). Still, that is not adequate, so we have 3 meetings on the Lord's day which must be very exhausting for those that are at the hall for the entire day. However, the Mosque that opened up did not build a parking lot so the Police give them the right to park on the street, where anyone else that parks would get a ticket. For me this is a minor irritant since I am always early enough to park in our lot and the streets haven't been clogged yet when I arrive. But for the Pastor he is truly miffed by this. He is keenly aware that if someone cannot get parking they will not make it to the meeting. Also, having come from a non Christian country where he saw Christians and their congregations treated like second class citizens he is in disbelief that in a so called "Christian" country they are still treated like second class citizens.

That said, I disagree that we should treat Muslims the way Christians are treated in countries operating under Sharia law. Didn't the Lord command us to treat others as you would have them treat us? It would be an affront to our conscience to treat Muslims that way. No one can tell me they would want to be treated the way Christians are treated in a country under Sharia law.
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Old 08-26-2011, 07:15 AM   #44
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Rick Perry and Sarah Palin ...
I am surprised with all of this discussion no one has actually mentioned the best thing about Palin. I for one was very happy when she entered the race because she was a lot easier on the eyes than that old geezer she was running with. I found if you just mute the news it was much more agreeable. Let's be honest, what used to be 6 months of intolerable noise has become 18 months. Personally I think all of our candidates should be first chosen based on their looks. Oh wait, they already are.

To me the basic principle is this, the harder someone campaigns to get elected the less I want them in office.
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Old 08-26-2011, 08:12 AM   #45
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Don't tell me what I don't know. I do know this because I read history and watch the news. "Religious freedom" has nothing to do with "each person being free to arrive at his/her own opinion." "Religious freedom" is what liberal courts and liberal policy makers tell us we can believe.
Ohio--I'm not "telling you you don't know." Rather, I'm asserting that you don't know what you claim to believe.

You stated "No, I don't believe in religious freedom. God desires all men to be saved." You believe that God desires all people to be saved. I do too. But I don't believe you or I can prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.

Therefore, shouldn't reasonable people allow others to make their own cloice? Doesn't the Bible itself support freedom of religious choice? Do really want to take away their right to exercise that ability freely? What good would it be to God to force people to adhere to a relgion they did not freely choose?
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Old 08-26-2011, 08:33 AM   #46
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For someone who doesn't like the God described by man you sure like to play God and give out missions to others.
What's so odd about God speaking thru an ass?
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Old 08-26-2011, 08:34 AM   #47
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I agree with zeek. Religious freedom from the Christian standpoint is simply respecting people's right to make up their own mind and choose themselves. God himself gives them this right. He doesn't say any old choice will produce good results, but he does give people the right to choose.
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Old 08-26-2011, 08:57 AM   #48
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I agree with zeek. Religious freedom from the Christian standpoint is simply respecting people's right to make up their own mind and choose themselves. God himself gives them this right. He doesn't say any old choice will produce good results, but he does give people the right to choose.
But I think the topic is about "religious freedom" in the US, not from the Christian standpoint but from the legal standpoint.
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Old 08-26-2011, 09:22 AM   #49
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But I think the topic is about "religious freedom" in the US, not from the Christian standpoint but from the legal standpoint.
It's about both because at least some in the Dominion movement and apparently our brother Ohio, do not believe in religious freedom. If people who do not believe in this fundamental constitutional freedom gain enough power, they will take it away from the rest of us. I don't want to see that happen.
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Old 08-26-2011, 09:43 AM   #50
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It's about both because at least some in the Dominion movement and apparently our brother Ohio, do not believe in religious freedom. If people who do not believe in this fundamental constitutional freedom gain enough power, they will take it away from the rest of us. I don't want to see that happen.
"believe"in? Can you reword that because I also do not "believe" in freedom of religion
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Old 08-26-2011, 10:16 AM   #51
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"believe"in? Can you reword that because I also do not "believe" in freedom of religion
By "believe in" I mean "value" as in "I value freedom of religion".
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Old 08-26-2011, 10:46 AM   #52
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By "believe in" I mean "value" as in "I value freedom of religion".
Just had this discussion with my niece. "Believe in" can also mean "agree with," not just "believe it exists."
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Old 08-26-2011, 11:55 AM   #53
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Just had this discussion with my niece. "Believe in" can also mean "agree with," not just "believe it exists."
Right and the etymology of believe is such that to believe in something may not merely mean mental assent but actually mean "to love".
believe O.E. belyfan "to believe," earlier geleafa (Mercian), gelefa (Northumbrian), gelyfan (W.Saxon) "believe," from P.Gmc. *ga-laubjan "hold dear, love" (cf. O.S. gilobian, Du. geloven, O.H.G. gilouben, Ger. glauben), from PIE base *leubh- "to like, desire" (see love). Spelling beleeve is common till 17c.; then altered perhaps by influence of relieve. To believe on instead of in was more common in 16c. but now is a peculiarity of theology; believe of also sometimes was used in 17c. So to believe can imply to belove as in I belove in Jesus" or I "belove in the Bill of Rights". Obviously the latter statement is not true of some Chrisitans. For example,

"...Christian Reconstructionism's founder, Rousas John Rushdoony, wrote in his magnum opus, The Institutes of Biblical Law: "The heresy of democracy has since then worked havoc in church and state ... Christianity and democracy are inevitably enemies." He elsewhere said that "Christianity is completely and radically anti-democratic; it is committed to spiritual aristocracy," and characterized democracy as "the great love of the failures and cowards of life." [11] In the book, he proposed that Old Testament law should be applied to modern society and that there should be a Christian theonomy, a concept developed in his colleague Greg Bahnsen's controversial tome Theonomy and Christian Ethics, which Rushdoony heartily endorsed. In the Institutes of Biblical Law, Rushdoony supported the reinstatement of the Mosaic law's penal sanctions. Under such a system, the list of civil crimes which carried a death sentence would include homosexuality, adultery, incest, lying about one's virginity, bestiality, witchcraft, idolatry or apostasy, public blasphemy, false prophesying, kidnapping, rape, and bearing false witness in a capital case. [12] In short, he sought to cast a vision for the reconstruction of society based on Christian principles and represents the more traditionally understood approach to Reconstructionism." Source:Wikipedia

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Old 08-26-2011, 12:00 PM   #54
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Right and the etymology of believe is such that to believe in something may not merely mean mental assent but actually mean "to love".
I believe in music.....
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Old 08-26-2011, 01:22 PM   #55
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By "believe in" I mean "value" as in "I value freedom of religion".
Did Ohio ever say he didn't value it?
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Old 08-26-2011, 02:35 PM   #56
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What if Obama were a muslim? Are we having a clash of civilizations with muslims?

If the reports are true, Dominionists do not believe in religious freedom. Do you?
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Islam has clashed with every civilization on earth. They started their religion by the edge of the sword. Today, they have advanced all the way to "belly bombs."

No, I don't believe in religious freedom. God desires all men to be saved.
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Did Ohio ever say he didn't value it?
Ah, I get it now, Dominionists (if the reports are true) value religious freedom, they just don't believe in it!
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Old 08-26-2011, 04:36 PM   #57
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Ah, I get it now, Dominionists (if the reports are true) value religious freedom, they just don't believe in it!
Did Ohio say he was a dominionist? It seemed he was talking for himself not the standing of this group. I would prefer to let Ohio speak for himself.

Second, I am well aware of the atrocities and unrighteousness that takes place in countries under Sharia law towards non muslims. I think it was clear that Ohio was referring to this. If you read what Sharia law means any country that adopts it makes all non muslims second class citizens at best.

The reason for the terrible atrocities in Sudan, at least in part, was that the Muslim nations have a block of about 60 countries, kind of like NAFTA. They exert extreme pressure on Nations like Sudan and Nigeria to join. Sudan was viewed as a gateway to Africa and has rich oil and gas resources.

Before getting all huffy over this issue, why not first take a look at what is actually going on. When Bush invaded Iraq one of the key justifications was that Saddam Hussein was a "bad" man. The reality according to Amnesty international is that our Allies, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia are considered much worse than Iraq. By contrast Iraq was considered tolerant by Middle Eastern standards. So the idea that we were fighting for truth, justice and the American way was baloney, we were fighting for oil. Iraq has the largest known oil reserves next to Saudi Arabia in the world. Saudi Arabia has booby trapped their oil wells with dirty nuclear bombs so that if anyone tries to seize the oil the entire world will go down in flames (that would be the impact of removing Saudi oil from the world's economy).

Now it is typical that those that learn of the atrocities being perpetrated under the guise of Sharia law are offended at the hypocrisy. Muslims scream bloody murder over the slightest offense in the US (NYC recently got exposed for setting up their own intelligence service to learn about the local muslims and local muslim groups were on the news crying how unjust this was. By all definitions we were attacked with an act of war. Our adversary views this as a holy war between Muslims and infidels, yet our government, charged with protecting us, is supposed to cover their eyes and play dumb?!) yet are completely silent over much worse examples of atrocities perpetrated by their native countries against non muslims. Why didn't these same people make a fuss about what was going on in Sudan, that was clearly much worse.

However, I believe that the key principle here is "to treat others the way you want to be treated" not the way they treat you. Freedom should be both ways, there is no such thing as "religious freedom" in a country that has Sharia law. It is written into the constitution that non muslims are second class citizens. Some are more tolerant than others. Worst case scenario is similar to the book 1984.

Now you may wish to uphold your view of what "freedom of religion" means in this country, but the context is that we are in a holy war. If you stipulate to that, then I think we can have a reasonable discussion. If not, then obviously we can't.
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Old 08-26-2011, 04:51 PM   #58
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Did Ohio say he was a dominionist? It seemed he was talking for himself not the standing of this group. I would prefer to let Ohio speak for himself.

Second, I am well aware of the atrocities and unrighteousness that takes place in countries under Sharia law towards non muslims. I think it was clear that Ohio was referring to this. If you read what Sharia law means any country that adopts it makes all non muslims second class citizens at best.

The reason for the terrible atrocities in Sudan, at least in part, was that the Muslim nations have a block of about 60 countries, kind of like NAFTA. They exert extreme pressure on Nations like Sudan and Nigeria to join. Sudan was viewed as a gateway to Africa and has rich oil and gas resources.

Before getting all huffy over this issue, why not first take a look at what is actually going on. When Bush invaded Iraq one of the key justifications was that Saddam Hussein was a "bad" man. The reality according to Amnesty international is that our Allies, Kuwait and Saudi Arabia are considered much worse than Iraq. By contrast Iraq was considered tolerant by Middle Eastern standards. So the idea that we were fighting for truth, justice and the American way was baloney, we were fighting for oil. Iraq has the largest known oil reserves next to Saudi Arabia in the world. Saudi Arabia has booby trapped their oil wells with dirty nuclear bombs so that if anyone tries to seize the oil the entire world will go down in flames (that would be the impact of removing Saudi oil from the world's economy).

Now it is typical that those that learn of the atrocities being perpetrated under the guise of Sharia law are offended at the hypocrisy. Muslims scream bloody murder over the slightest offense in the US (NYC recently got exposed for setting up their own intelligence service to learn about the local muslims and local muslim groups were on the news crying how unjust this was. By all definitions we were attacked with an act of war. Our adversary views this as a holy war between Muslims and infidels, yet our government, charged with protecting us, is supposed to cover their eyes and play dumb?!) yet are completely silent over much worse examples of atrocities perpetrated by their native countries against non muslims. Why didn't these same people make a fuss about what was going on in Sudan, that was clearly much worse.

However, I believe that the key principle here is "to treat others the way you want to be treated" not the way they treat you. Freedom should be both ways, there is no such thing as "religious freedom" in a country that has Sharia law. It is written into the constitution that non muslims are second class citizens. Some are more tolerant than others. Worst case scenario is similar to the book 1984.

Now you may wish to uphold your view of what "freedom of religion" means in this country, but the context is that we are in a holy war. If you stipulate to that, then I think we can have a reasonable discussion. If not, then obviously we can't.
I seem to remember Saddam Hussein paying $25,000 to the families of members who would strap a bomb on themselves and blow up in Israel. after we invaded Iraq I think this practice was diminished. Thatwas a good enough reason for me.
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Old 08-26-2011, 06:11 PM   #59
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I seem to remember Sadaam Husien paying $25,000 to the families of the Palestinians who strapped bombs on themselves and blew themselves up. That practice diminished after the Iraq invasion. That is good enough for me. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,48822,00.html
Assad leveled an entire city in Syria and turned it into a parking lot because they were not supporting his regime. Again, using Amnesty international as a fair arbiter, by Mid East Standards he was considered "tolerant". The idea that we were going into Iraq because he is an evil dictator is complete hypocrisy. Everyone knows that our allies were far more evil as dictators.
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Old 08-26-2011, 08:00 PM   #60
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Hey folks, "religious freedom" is today's code words for letting Muslims take over our country. I believe they should have the exact same "religious freedom" that Christians have in Moslem countries.
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Don't tell me what I don't know. I do know this because I read history and watch the news. "Religious freedom" has nothing to do with "each person being free to arrive at his/her own opinion." "Religious freedom" is what liberal courts and liberal policy makers tell us we can believe.
Of course, I was being a little facetious here, stretching hyperbole to make a point.

But, honestly now, after watching decades of distortions regarding our first amendment rights in the liberal courts, with Christian liberties constantly being eroded, my statements above express how many Americans really feel.

P.S. I hate to invest too much time in this thread, because I keep thinking the moderator will shut it down, and delete the thread. He has "threatened" awareness and me twice.

Why do all'ya'all, the rest of you all, get a free pass?
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Old 08-26-2011, 09:05 PM   #61
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P.S. I hate to invest too much time in this thread, because I keep thinking the moderator will shut it down, and delete the thread. He has "threatened" awareness and me twice, why do all ya'all, the rest of you all get a free pass.
I think UntoHim is hoping we get past the politics to the point being made by The New Apostolic Reformation movement.

Yes, as Zeek has pointed out, the New Apostolic Reformation movement is deeply involved in world politics.

My question is, should Christians get deeply involved in politics at all. Politics is of this world, and Jesus said his kingdom isn't of this world.

Should Christians, such as the New Apostolic Reformation, and "The Fellowship/Family/C-street movement" seek Christian domination of the world, and do so by entangling themselves in the world political system?
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Old 08-26-2011, 09:12 PM   #62
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I think UntoHim is hoping we get past the politics to the point being made by The New Apostolic Reformation movement.

Yes, as Zeek has pointed out, the New Apostolic Reformation movement is deeply involved in world politics.

My question is, should Christians get deeply involved in politics at all. Politics is of this world, and Jesus said his kingdom isn't of this world.

Should Christians, such as the New Apostolic Reformation, and "The Fellowship/Family/C-street movement" seek Christian domination of the world, and do so by entangling themselves in the world political system?

To answer your questions: yes and absolutely not
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Old 08-26-2011, 09:59 PM   #63
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My question is, should Christians get deeply involved in politics at all. Politics is of this world, and Jesus said his kingdom isn't of this world.
I believe this is a question only the Lord can answer for each believer. Some believers vote and some do not. Each needs to seek the Lord about this matter. Some enter politics and some do not. Each needs to seek the Lord about this matter.
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Old 08-27-2011, 12:07 AM   #64
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Second, I am well aware of the atrocities and unrighteousness that takes place in countries under Sharia law towards non muslims. I think it was clear that Ohio was referring to this. If you read what Sharia law means any country that adopts it makes all non muslims second class citizens at best.
Obviously Sharia law and religious freedom are mutually exclusive. Kinda like how papal involvement in European politics wasn't particularly conducive to religious freedom there.

So I don't think it's "clear" that when Ohio said "religious freedom", he really meant "adopting Sharia law".

For years our society has been indulging in this fetish of removing all public mentions of God, prayer, etc. Not only the "ornamental" stuff (Ten Commandments in courthouses, for example), but also more substantial old-timey moral laws as well (am I the only one who finds it a little odd that polygamy is not yet covered under the "get the government out of our bedroom" amendment?). What I'm getting at is, does anyone really believe we are heading in the direction of adopting one of the most conservative, fundamentalist-based legal codes that exists in the world today?
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Old 08-27-2011, 05:49 AM   #65
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What I'm getting at is, does anyone really believe we are heading in the direction of adopting one of the most conservative, fundamentalist-based legal codes that exists in the world today?
When it comes to moral codes, and moral laws, then it seems like there are no more laws. The porn industry has benefited the most 1st amend. "rights."

When it comes to Christian liberties, however, then new restrictions abound on every level, under the guise of "separation of church and state." Instead of "the state" referring to government interference in church policy and faith, as Jefferson's Federalist Papers indicated, "the state" is now everywhere we look -- at work, in school, retail, public places, programs, sports events, etc.
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Old 08-27-2011, 10:16 AM   #66
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When it comes to Christian liberties, however, then new restrictions abound on every level, under the guise of "separation of church and state." Instead of "the state" referring to government interference in church policy and faith, as Jefferson's Federalist Papers indicated, "the state" is now everywhere we look -- at work, in school, retail, public places, programs, sports events, etc.
But the state can't endorse, sponsor, or establish one religion over another. You're disturbed that the state is into all aspects of our lives, and you then want the state to represent one religion over another?

Christians need to stop whining about being persecuted just because they can't get the state to endorse their religion over others.

The problem with Christians that feel this way is that they want a Christian based theocracy ... same as Islam that wants an Islamic theocracy.

What's the difference? None. Both want to push their religion down our throats, and want to use gov'ment to do it.
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Old 08-27-2011, 11:47 AM   #67
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But the state can't endorse, sponsor, or establish one religion over another. You're disturbed that the state is into all aspects of our lives, and you then want the state to represent one religion over another?
This seems far too naive for you. Since when do you look at issues superficially and assume that the black and white law will govern the man with a deceitfully wicked heart? Bottom line, if you have ways to funnel money to influential and powerful people you will get many perks and benefits. As I mentioned earlier, saints that attend our meeting will get tickets if they park on the street, but at the exact same time and in the exact same spot those that attend the mosque do not get tickets, they are exempt. Why? We have a much bigger property, we have purchased 3 parking lots, we have an agreement with the operator of a 4th lot. The mosque has no parking lot and I am not aware of any agreement they have with anyone else.

We have already had a very difficult issue with defining religion. I will throw out another definition, I believe religion is a lifestyle based on a systematic belief. Based on that definition you can clearly see a distinction between the Christian, Jewish and Moslem religions. But you also see that "fornication" is also a lifestyle with a belief system. Porn stars become "sacred prostitutes" just like in the worship of Molech. I feel the Supreme Court ruling on Abortion was a clear case of the US govt establishing Fornication as a legitimate lifestyle and belief system. Without the fail safe back up plan of abortion it is very difficult to establish this religion.
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Old 08-27-2011, 12:09 PM   #68
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This seems far too naive for you. Since when do you look at issues superficially and assume that the black and white law will govern the man with a deceitfully wicked heart? Bottom line, if you have ways to funnel money to influential and powerful people you will get many perks and benefits. As I mentioned earlier, saints that attend our meeting will get tickets if they park on the street, but at the exact same time and in the exact same spot those that attend the mosque do not get tickets, they are exempt. Why? We have a much bigger property, we have purchased 3 parking lots, we have an agreement with the operator of a 4th lot. The mosque has no parking lot and I am not aware of any agreement they have with anyone else.
Wouldn't it be a Christian testimony if you guys allowed those attending the mosque to use your parking lots? Why be at odds with your neighbor.
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Old 08-27-2011, 12:39 PM   #69
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Wouldn't it be a Christian testimony if you guys allowed those attending the mosque to use your parking lots? Why be at odds with your neighbor.
If you do this for the mosque, awareness will call you gutless.
If you don't do this for the mosque, awareness will call you heartless.

You "win" either way, since you are supposed to "suffer."
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Old 08-27-2011, 02:42 PM   #70
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Wouldn't it be a Christian testimony if you guys allowed those attending the mosque to use your parking lots? Why be at odds with your neighbor.
As it turns out our neighbor is another congregation of Christians and that is the "4th" lot I was referring to as having an agreement. But since our lots are filled and we are in the process of trying to acquire more that would seem to be counterproductive. But, also, the Mosque itself is probably 10 blocks away. I don't think they would want to walk that far, especially since they can park on the street closer.
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Old 08-27-2011, 02:44 PM   #71
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If you do this for the mosque, awareness will call you gutless.
If you don't do this for the mosque, awareness will call you heartless.

You "win" either way, since you are supposed to "suffer."
Well what is funny is that if we did this for anyone the city would call us liable. The church I meet with once lost some apartments adjacent to our current property because someone was injured while being fed at our soup kitchen. This was prior to the passing of the good samaritan laws.
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Old 08-27-2011, 03:16 PM   #72
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If you do this for the mosque, awareness will call you gutless.
If you don't do this for the mosque, awareness will call you heartless.

You "win" either way, since you are supposed to "suffer."
Oh pooy, yer caricature of me is false.

And I'm sure if leaders of your Christian group went to law enforcement with leaders from the mosque, and you told them you wanted to share the parking lots and the street parking, they'd be so impressed with your Christian gesture that they would allow it, and would cease ticketing your group.

And God would probably bless your church with increased revenue to more than cover the cost of your parking.

Have a little faith and love your Muslim neighbors too. Jesus didn't say love your neighbors unless they are Muslim.
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Old 08-27-2011, 03:23 PM   #73
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As it turns out our neighbor is another congregation of Christians and that is the "4th" lot I was referring to as having an agreement. But since our lots are filled and we are in the process of trying to acquire more that would seem to be counterproductive. But, also, the Mosque itself is probably 10 blocks away. I don't think they would want to walk that far, especially since they can park on the street closer.
There is no way that mosque should have received an occupancy permit. Every city has prescribed ratios for mandatory parking spaces. In the rural areas, it may be as high as one parking space per 2 seats, and in the city (with public transportation) it may be as low as one parking space per 10 seats, but parking will be required. I suppose the one exception would be downtown churches, like "the city" of Manhattan, where public parking is available.
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Old 08-27-2011, 03:25 PM   #74
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Oh pooy, yer caricature of me is false.

And I'm sure if leaders of your Christian group went to law enforcement with leaders from the mosque, and you told them you wanted to share the parking lots and the street parking, they'd be so impressed with your Christian gesture that they would allow it, and would cease ticketing your group.

And God would probably bless your church with increased revenue to more than cover the cost of your parking.

Have a little faith and love your Muslim neighbors too. Jesus didn't say love your neighbors unless they are Muslim.
I think this would be a very interesting suggestion if the Mosque actually came and asked to use our parking. I imagine if a Mosque (and there is a very large one not too far from us with a large parking lot) came to us, uninvited and said "hey, would you guys like to use our parking lot during service" we would find that to be a very strange request. Now if they were truly next door neighbors they might say "we noticed your parking lots are full and ours aren't", but since the Mosque is 10 blocks away, I would feel very strange and very uncomfortable with that request. Not because it is a mosque, but because it comes across as very strange. So, in the same way I expect the Mosque would feel equally uncomfortable with your suggestion coming from us.

Also, I imagine the Mosque would lose out in the deal. Who wants to park 10 blocks away if you can find a parking space closer? But once you open the street up to both groups it may be that they will have to park 10 blocks away. Only, there wouldn't be any room in our parking lot because why would someone at our church park on the street if there were still room in the lot? As I said earlier, we hold 3 meetings on the Lord's day, starting at 8.
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Old 08-27-2011, 03:27 PM   #75
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Have a little faith and love your Muslim neighbors too. Jesus didn't say love your neighbors unless they are Muslim.
Great message awareness.

Telling us to love those Muslims, but not those LCers.
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Old 08-27-2011, 03:29 PM   #76
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Great message awareness.

Telling us to love those Muslims, but not those LCers.
Yes Awareness, glad to see you are now talking about loving others. Let's hope to hear more of this new and improved Awareness.
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Old 08-27-2011, 03:47 PM   #77
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Great message awareness.

Telling us to love those Muslims, but not those LCers.
Pooy again. I love both the Muslims and the LCers, but that doesn't mean I let them off the hook when they err.

Truth is if the LCers loved me there would be no problem between us. The love drops off on their side... When opportunity arises I do try to love them...but according to them I'm poison and the anti-Christ so, they don't love me back...
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Old 08-27-2011, 03:48 PM   #78
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Yes Awareness, glad to see you are now talking about loving others. Let's hope to hear more of this new and improved Awareness.
My bark is worse than my bite ...
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Old 08-27-2011, 05:31 PM   #79
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Pooy again. I love both the Muslims and the LCers, but that doesn't mean I let them off the hook when they err.

Truth is if the LCers loved me there would be no problem between us. The love drops off on their side... When opportunity arises I do try to love them...but according to them I'm poison and the anti-Christ so, they don't love me back...
Bible says to dump some hot coals on their head.

They will really love you then.
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Old 08-27-2011, 05:49 PM   #80
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Bible says to dump some hot coals on their head.

They will really love you then.
You've been expressing some real warm sentiments toward Muslims, Ohio, right here in this thread. What the hell you razzing awareness about?
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Old 08-27-2011, 06:43 PM   #81
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You've been expressing some real warm sentiments toward Muslims, Ohio, right here in this thread. What the hell you razzing awareness about?
It was a joke. ZNP and awareness and Ohio were just having a little fun waiting until Irene blows over.
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Old 08-27-2011, 07:04 PM   #82
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Well we now have 1,000 people, our gym can only hold 600, so we are scrambling.
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Old 08-27-2011, 07:32 PM   #83
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Bible says to dump some hot coals on their head.

They will really love you then.
No, Proverbs says by giving yer enemy bread and water you heap hot coals on their head ... and the Lord shall reward thee.

That's why Z's church should be kind to the Muslims, and share parking... and the Lord will reward them...

But I don't look upon all Muslims as my enemy. Some of them yes. But I've come to know some Muslims that love God and others more than many Christians I've known.

God is drawing all men to Himself...even Muslims.
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Old 08-27-2011, 08:09 PM   #84
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Well we do give food out on Monday to anyone who comes.
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Old 08-27-2011, 08:37 PM   #85
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Well we do give food out on Monday to anyone who comes.
BTW, How do the police know the difference between Muslim owned cars, and Christian owned cars?

And why can't anyone park on the street ; believers (Muslim/Christian) and even atheists? Someone needs to visit yer mayor.
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Old 08-27-2011, 08:54 PM   #86
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It was a joke. ZNP and awareness and Ohio were just having a little fun waiting until Irene blows over.
Oh, thanks for filling me in!
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Old 08-27-2011, 08:55 PM   #87
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Well we now have 1,000 people, our gym can only hold 600, so we are scrambling.
Can you park the other 400 on the street?
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Old 08-27-2011, 09:20 PM   #88
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BTW, How do the police know the difference between Muslim owned cars, and Christian owned cars?
mayor.
They get a special pass they put in the window and those that get tickets can get them dismissed with a letter from the mosque
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Old 08-27-2011, 09:21 PM   #89
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Can you park the other 400 on the street?
We are putting them in classrooms and hallways
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Old 08-27-2011, 11:07 PM   #90
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We are putting them in classrooms and hallways
Good idea, that's probably safer.
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Old 08-28-2011, 07:09 AM   #91
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Well we now have 1,000 people, our gym can only hold 600, so we are scrambling.
How big is the Mosque? Maybe they'll share space with you. I remember reading about some Muslims and Christians sharing meeting space. They got along beautifully. They both acted very Christian about it. And I don't think they operated on the "keep your enemy closer" thingie, cuz they weren't enemies. Love is a beautiful thing.
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Old 08-28-2011, 07:11 AM   #92
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How big is the Mosque? Maybe they'll share space with you. I remember reading about some Muslims and Christians sharing meeting space. They got along beautifully. They both acted very Christian about it. And I don't think they operated on the "keep your enemy closer" thingie, cuz they weren't enemies. Love is a beautiful thing.
The shelter is one of the City Universities, we are sharing space with everyone. I suppose if the hurricane had been really bad then maybe we would need more hands on deck, but it looks for the moment like we weathered this storm.
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Old 08-28-2011, 10:48 AM   #93
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Don't let the Muslims scare the bejesus out of ya.....
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Old 08-28-2011, 11:37 AM   #94
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Don't let the Muslims scare the bejesus out of ya.....
Of course not. We have tried to set up prayer rugs, orient them in the correct direction, and make sure that we only serve kosher MRE's. Also, we try to soothe everyone just to avoid 1000 people going into riot mode. We have put up comforting signs like "Death to the US" and "The US is the great Satan", etc. Don't worry we have this under control.
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Old 08-28-2011, 12:16 PM   #95
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We have put up comforting signs like "Death to the US" and "The US is the great Satan", etc. Don't worry we have this under control.
NY style Christian "love" in action during times of crisis.

You're lucky my brother didn't stay at your shelter. His idea of "love" involves deportation.
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Old 08-28-2011, 03:32 PM   #96
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You are worried about Dominionism, and we got a Muslim in the White House? Do you have any idea what "scary" really means? Sarah Palin has other issues, but these "extreme views" should be of little concern to conservative Christians.

I used to listen to Terry Gross of Fresh Air, until I so sick of her ramming her liberal bias down our throats.

Obama IS a Muslim...not by choice, but by birth (see Osama Dadok) His father was a Muslim, his grandfather was a muslim and his step father was a muslim and he attended a Muslim school (all according to Obama's book).
It's funny, the only ones who KNOW he's a Muslim are Muslims! Everyone else is in denial.
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Old 08-28-2011, 03:47 PM   #97
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Obama IS a Muslim...not by choice, but by birth (see Osama Dadok) His father was a Muslim, his grandfather was a muslim and his step father was a muslim and he attended a Muslim school (all according to Obama's book).
It's funny, the only ones who KNOW he's a Muslim are Muslims! Everyone else is in denial.
I took a lot of heat for saying the same thing.

Thanks for showing up when I needed you most.
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Old 08-28-2011, 04:03 PM   #98
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Obama IS a Muslim...not by choice, but by birth (see Osama Dadok) His father was a Muslim, his grandfather was a muslim and his step father was a muslim and he attended a Muslim school (all according to Obama's book).
It's funny, the only ones who KNOW he's a Muslim are Muslims! Everyone else is in denial.
I can believe that Obama is a muslim and is practicing what the muslims call Taqiyya

The word "Taqiyya" literally means: "Concealing, precaution, guarding.” It is employed in disguising one's beliefs, intentions, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions or strategies. In practical terms it is manifested as dissimulation, lying, deceiving, vexing and confounding with the intention of deflecting attention, foiling or pre-emptive blocking. It is currently employed in fending off and neutralising any criticism of Islam or Muslims.

Falsehoods told to prevent the denigration of Islam, to protect oneself, or to promote the cause of Islam are sanctioned in the Qur'an and Sunna, including lying under oath in testimony before a court, deceiving by making distorted statements to the media such as the claim that Islam is a “religion of peace”. A Muslim is even permitted to deny or denounce his faith if, in so doing, he protects or furthers the interests of Islam, so long as he remains faithful to Islam in his heart.

Someone else once said that if you tell a big enough lie everyone will believe it or something like that. I can believe that Obama is a muslim. Even what is happening in the middle east in view of this light I can see
Obama is coming from a muslim view even to the point of working against Israel. He didn't seem very hospitable to Benjamin Netanyahu even glaring at him. He contributed to toppling Mubarack in Eygypt and now Gaddafi (I don't know how to spell his name) in Libya. I think this may be steps to bring about a religous/muslim/state for the middle east that can be more opposed to Israel. I am hoping that the voters will not be misled 1 more time as they say fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me.

I do believe still that Obama faked his birth certificate but the media has dropped following those still protesting that, maybe that will be brought up again as we get closer to the election.

Even his view of the world is of someone from outside of the United States. Just for expressing this view though I am sure some who are in love with him will immediately think I am a racist. I am hoping that in this country that this next election can conclude peacefully but I see people really have been polorized and I am afraid Obama is going to spend his billion dollars already raised for the election to escalate those differences to try to hang on to his position, power and agenda.

anyway we know who is the father of lies is, thought it might be interesting that muslims even have a word that elevates lying to serving their god.
I think someone should ask Obama if he believes in taqiyya and see if he knows what that is. He might even lie about that!

Last edited by RollingStone; 08-28-2011 at 04:11 PM. Reason: added view of muslim lies verses christian lies
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Old 08-28-2011, 04:28 PM   #99
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The word "Taqiyya" literally means: "Concealing, precaution, guarding.” It is employed in disguising one's beliefs, intentions, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions or strategies. In practical terms it is manifested as dissimulation, lying, deceiving
Lying to support your belief is universal. Muslims don't have a corner on it. Christians do it as well.

And Christians tell all kinds of lies about Obama ... can't believe anything they say...
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Old 08-28-2011, 06:28 PM   #100
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All you guys that hate Obama will be delighted that Al-Qaeda hates him too :...
http://www.newser.com/story/48912/al...nst-obama.html

Muslims in general don't like him either ... if he's a Muslim he sure ain't much of one....

And has anyone ever heard of conversion? I was born a Southern Baptist. That doesn't mean I'm one for all of my life. Else I wouldn't have joined the local church.
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Old 08-28-2011, 06:35 PM   #101
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All you guys that hate Obama will be delighted that Al-Qaeda hates him too :...
http://www.newser.com/story/48912/al...nst-obama.html

Muslims in general don't like him either ... if he's a Muslim he sure ain't much of one....

And has anyone ever heard of conversion? I was born a Southern Baptist. That doesn't mean I'm one for all of my life. Else I wouldn't have joined the local church.
That's why we have so many problems with this...it is a different culture with differing ideas.. you do not "convert" you get a death sentence...their mind set is totally different than ours. You are the religion of your father until you die...no exceptions...It's not a slander...it's only a fact, he was born of a Muslim father so regardless of anything else, he will be envisioned as a Muslim by the Muslim world...forever.
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Old 08-28-2011, 06:54 PM   #102
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All you guys that hate Obama will be delighted that Al-Qaeda hates him too :...
http://www.newser.com/story/48912/al...nst-obama.html

Muslims in general don't like him either ... if he's a Muslim he sure ain't much of one....

And has anyone ever heard of conversion? I was born a Southern Baptist. That doesn't mean I'm one for all of my life. Else I wouldn't have joined the local church.
I have always felt that his association with that "church" in Chicago was purely political. Also, I feel his wife is certainly a Christian. Now if he is a muslim it would certainly be very "audacious" of him to run for president when we are in the midst of fighting a religious war with muslims.

That said it is of no importance to me. When someone runs for office and uses their "faith" as part of their image I compare that to the pharisees who make long prayers and wear robes in the market place. Campaigns are nothing more than marketing of the person, using your "faith" is no more than dressing that campaign up in a long robe.

Now you might feel that Bush and Cheney deserve some credit, I'll leave that to you, the bottom line is that Al Qaeda is clearly on the run and being destroyed. Going into Iraq after 911 was clearly inept when it comes to catching Osama. I feel that the war against Al Qaeda has been most effective in the last 2 1/2 years. Technology plays a big part in that, and the CIA developing contacts plays a big part. But it would be very disingenuous in my mind to not give Obama his due credit.

Also his decision to approve the Osama mission was very gutsy. His joke about the decisions that would keep him up at night, the same night, lets everyone know that this guy can play poker.

As far as I am concerned the economic catastrophe in this country is based on changes and deregulation that was enacted prior to Obama coming into office. I see no reason at all to laud him for the way he has handled the various economic crisis's but on the other hand, I don't feel he has much of the responsibility for them either. He was not responsible for the housing crisis and he didn't get us into the various wars. He has tried honestly to end the Iraq war and to defeat Al Qaeda and finish that war as well. Our recent downgrade by Standard and Poor's could be attributed to his playing the political game poorly, but even more it should be attributed to the games being played by Congress.

I think the impression of the US among Muslims since Obama has been elected has been improved. So in several ways I think the average american is safer since he has taken office.

The most immediate danger we are currently facing is "peak oil". Bush and Cheney understood that, but I disagree with the strategy they chose. I think Obama understands it as well but the Tsunami probably put the kabosh on his nuclear option. If we were really going to have a smooth transition to other forms of energy it would have happened at the time of Carter. I believe that when Reagan tore out the solar water heater and installed oil men throughout his cabinet that we embarked on a strategy that led us to 911, bankruptcy, and all the other related ills.
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Old 08-28-2011, 07:37 PM   #103
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I have always felt that his association with that "church" in Chicago was purely political. Also, I feel his wife is certainly a Christian. Now if he is a muslim it would certainly be very "audacious" of him to run for president when we are in the midst of fighting a religious war with muslims.

That said it is of no importance to me. When someone runs for office and uses their "faith" as part of their image I compare that to the pharisees who make long prayers and wear robes in the market place. Campaigns are nothing more than marketing of the person, using your "faith" is no more than dressing that campaign up in a long robe.

Now you might feel that Bush and Cheney deserve some credit, I'll leave that to you, the bottom line is that Al Qaeda is clearly on the run and being destroyed. Going into Iraq after 911 was clearly inept when it comes to catching Osama. I feel that the war against Al Qaeda has been most effective in the last 2 1/2 years. Technology plays a big part in that, and the CIA developing contacts plays a big part. But it would be very disingenuous in my mind to not give Obama his due credit.

Also his decision to approve the Osama mission was very gutsy. His joke about the decisions that would keep him up at night, the same night, lets everyone know that this guy can play poker.

As far as I am concerned the economic catastrophe in this country is based on changes and deregulation that was enacted prior to Obama coming into office. I see no reason at all to laud him for the way he has handled the various economic crisis's but on the other hand, I don't feel he has much of the responsibility for them either. He was not responsible for the housing crisis and he didn't get us into the various wars. He has tried honestly to end the Iraq war and to defeat Al Qaeda and finish that war as well. Our recent downgrade by Standard and Poor's could be attributed to his playing the political game poorly, but even more it should be attributed to the games being played by Congress.

I think the impression of the US among Muslims since Obama has been elected has been improved. So in several ways I think the average american is safer since he has taken office.

The most immediate danger we are currently facing is "peak oil". Bush and Cheney understood that, but I disagree with the strategy they chose. I think Obama understands it as well but the Tsunami probably put the kabosh on his nuclear option. If we were really going to have a smooth transition to other forms of energy it would have happened at the time of Carter. I believe that when Reagan tore out the solar water heater and installed oil men throughout his cabinet that we embarked on a strategy that led us to 911, bankruptcy, and all the other related ills.
What a balanced post. How refreshing!

I don't think anyone knows who or what Obama is, even himself. Maybe since he's half black and half white he's a mixed bag on all levels. So he's white and black, and Christian and Muslim too. Who knows? Why does his religion matter at all? Who cares? He prays Christian prayers, if that means anything. I'm more interested in what he does.

I think those holding certainty of who they think Obama is are using false-omniscience to make their determinations. Only God is able to see into the heart. We're blind to those things. So we make 'em up, and call them facts.

But it's obvious by breaking his campaign promises, he's a smooth talkin con man. Everyone was sick of Dubya and Obama basically promised change, and not to be Bush.

But we see now that Obama has pretty much kept on the same path as Dubya, almost across the board. In the end he's Bush with black skin ... except for one thing. Bush didn't get Osama, and Obama did. Crafty move Obama ... and word on the street, and from military circles is that, Obama has Al-Qaeda on the run....
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Old 08-28-2011, 07:46 PM   #104
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Everyone was sick of Dubya and Obama basically promised change
This explains a lot about your views of your beloved Obama. In your little world, "everyone was sick of Dubya." Sounds like Michael Moore.

This thread began with a quote from a program called "Fresh Air," and that was how I viewed Bush -- like a breath of "Fresh Air." I knew where he stood on various things because his word meant something to him. Quite a contrast from the guys at the WH before and after him.
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Old 08-28-2011, 07:51 PM   #105
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except for one thing. Bush didn't get Osama, and Obama did. Crafty move Obama ...
The CIA got him, with the help of special forces.

But ... let's celebrate the only good thing that BO ever did, and let's make a movie about it, scheduled for release one month before the election.
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Old 08-28-2011, 08:20 PM   #106
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Default Re: Perry and Palin tied to Dominion Movement

I know it's a little off subject, but when ZNP mentioned the "motives" for invading Iraq, I couldn't hep but remember this particular little YouTube video.
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Old 08-28-2011, 10:16 PM   #107
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I know it's a little off subject, but when ZNP mentioned the "motives" for invading Iraq, I couldn't hep but remember this particular little YouTube video.
Cute ... thanks fer the link....and funny ...
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Old 08-28-2011, 10:47 PM   #108
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This explains a lot about your views of your beloved Obama. In your little world, "everyone was sick of Dubya." Sounds like Michael Moore.
Obama is not my beloved. I did not vote for him.

But how do you suppose Obama got elected? The voters were clearly tired of Bush, and his policies, that drove us into a huge hole, and unnecessary wars.

Or perhaps it was divine intervention? The Bible says God ordains the leaders of nations. Have you thanked God for placing Obama as the leader of the greatest nation in the world?
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Old 08-29-2011, 04:48 AM   #109
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Obama is not my beloved. I did not vote for him.

But how do you suppose Obama got elected? The voters were clearly tired of Bush, and his policies, that drove us into a huge hole, and unnecessary wars.

Or perhaps it was divine intervention? The Bible says God ordains the leaders of nations. Have you thanked God for placing Obama as the leader of the greatest nation in the world?
No. I think it was that people wanted change.

Or was it hope.
Or was it change you can hope for.
Or hope that gives correct change.
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And when things did not go right, it was argued that the problem was too much time spent legislating and not enough telling us our values. (Don't think about that one too long.)

I have no idea about the Dominion movement. I just know that left, right, or centrist, people have reasons for being where they are. Few of them are simply stupid for it. But most are a little stupid about why others are not like them. Until these last three years, I was convinced that no matter how extreme either side seemed, once they were in power, it always moved toward the center because that is only place that sufficient consensus can be built.

But now we have almost fully come to the place where we expect that we will get it our way — conservative or liberal — or nothing will happen. So little does until there is that filibuster-proof, veto-proof majority that simply forces its will on the others, and even their own people. Why their own people? Because not all conservatives are "hunker in the bunker," "shoot 'em at the border," "pull yourself up you dimwit" extremists. And not all liberals are "give the government all your money and let them take care of everyone while we allow the world to overrun us" extremists. Most of us are neither extreme. Unfortunately, it seems that at primary time, only the extremes are motivated to vote. So the extremists get the nomination. And drive the rhetoric. And until recently, it was the main election that demonstrated the general will of the people, but only as a shift from center. That is because neither side starts with a clear majority. It takes a lot of shift within those independents. But this time it seems that the rhetoric of the primary extremists has remained fully entrenched. On both sides, with few exceptions.

And it seems that maybe the general population has learned how to vote the treasury. And the republic is doomed.

And I'm not the cynic in my household.
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Old 08-29-2011, 05:27 AM   #110
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Obama is not my beloved. I did not vote for him.

But how do you suppose Obama got elected? The voters were clearly tired of Bush, and his policies, that drove us into a huge hole, and unnecessary wars.

Or perhaps it was divine intervention? The Bible says God ordains the leaders of nations. Have you thanked God for placing Obama as the leader of the greatest nation in the world?

Tired of Bush mantra has been the talking point, could it be that McCain lost? Mccain was ahead slightly in the polls until 1 month before the election. What happened 1 month before the election? TARP
Could it be that "wallstreet" decided it wanted Obama to be president and timed the crises to cause that effect? Who received the benefits of TARP? Who got the benefits from TARP?
Why is it that no one is asking what happened to half the TARP funds that Bush didn't use? Here is a clue http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/gl.../04/04/summers

Could it be that Obama scapegoated wallstreet after he became president but in fact he has benifitted from them?
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Old 08-29-2011, 06:32 AM   #111
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Tired of Bush mantra has been the talking point, could it be that McCain lost? Mccain was ahead slightly in the polls until 1 month before the election. What happened 1 month before the election? TARP
Could it be that "wallstreet" decided it wanted Obama to be president and timed the crises to cause that effect? Who received the benefits of TARP? Who got the benefits from TARP?
Why is it that no one is asking what happened to half the TARP funds that Bush didn't use? Here is a clue http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/gl.../04/04/summers

Could it be that Obama scapegoated wallstreet after he became president but in fact he has benifitted from them?
There's no doubt that there is a shadow group of power brokers that are controlling Washington, so that congressmen and the president, whoever they be, are puppets.

As far as I'm concerned Washington is FUBR, and neither party is gonna fix it. Why should they kill the goose that's laying the Goldman Sachs eggs?

If any of you are fooled by this, and so hope in your particular party to save the day, you are being deceived. You're being tricked by your party with false promises ... just as Bush and Obama tricked us.
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Old 08-29-2011, 10:38 AM   #112
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Could it be that "wallstreet" decided it wanted Obama to be president and timed the crises to cause that effect? Who received the benefits of TARP? Who got the benefits from TARP?
Interesting questions. What I remember about 2008 is that the "tired of Bush" mantra was strong, and McCain didn't seem "maverick" enough to bull out of the Beltway gravitational field, and his VP pick was a loose cannon, so Obama had the inside track, financial meltdown or not.

Then.... by some strange coincidence, the Wall Streeters went to Washington and said they were broke and needed a quick $750 billion dollar bailout to cover some bad bets. So I remember George W standing there and saying how we needed to come up with the money quick for his ex-moneyed friends to keep their shirts on.

It looked to me at the time like the Bankers knew the 8 year run was almost over; a new sheriff was coming to town, and they wanted a nice, 3/4 trillion dollar going-away present to tide them over until the cash spigots could open up again. Like a drunk staggering out of a weekend bender and wishing for a quart of Johnnie Walker Red to nurse him through the hangover.

That was my view at the time. With 3 years of perspective, and Obama's "Change" now looking like "More of Same", I realize that probably the Wall Streeters would have fleeced us anyway (they kept their fat profits, and we covered their losses) regardless of whose name was on the mailbox at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.
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Old 08-30-2011, 11:18 AM   #113
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From theocracywatch we learn:
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Soft Dominionists are Christian nationalists. They believe that Biblically-defined immorality and sin breed chaos and anarchy. They fear that America's greatness as God's chosen land has been undermined by liberal secular humanists, feminists, and homosexuals. Purists want litmus tests for issues of abortion, tolerance of gays and lesbians, and prayer in schools. Their vision has elements of theocracy, but they stop short of calling for supplanting the Constitution and Bill of Rights.

Hard Dominionists believe all of this, but they want the United States to be a Christian theocracy. For them the Constitution and Bill of Rights are merely addendums to Old Testament Biblical law. They claim that Christian men with specific theological beliefs are ordained by God to run society. Christians and others who do not accept their theological beliefs would be second-class citizens. This sector includes Christian Reconstructionists, but it has a growing number of adherents in the leadership of the Christian Right.

Before the midterm elections of 2006, dominionists controlled both houses of the U.S. Congress, the White House and four out of nine seats on the U.S. Supreme Court. They were one seat away from holding a solid majority on the Supreme Court. As of January 1, 2007, dominionists will not control the leadership of either house of Congress, and the President will no longer be able to so easily appoint dominionists to the federal courts.

Five of the Republican Senators who were unseated on November 7 received whopping scores of 100% from the Family Research Council and Focus on the Family Voter Scorecards. Those Senators are: Conrad Burns (R-MT), George Allen (R-VA), Rick Santorum (R-PA), James Talent (R-MO), and Mike DeWine (R-OH). Rick Santorum was the number three ranking Republican in the party. Santorum and Allen both had Presidential ambitions. (FRC and FOF are the most politically influential of dominionist organizations.).
I agree with Bill Keller who wrote in New York Times Magazine:
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This year’s Republican primary season offers us an important opportunity to confront our scruples about the privacy of faith in public life — and to get over them. We have an unusually large number of candidates, including putative front-runners, who belong to churches that are mysterious or suspect to many Americans. Mitt Romney and Jon Huntsman are Mormons, a faith that many conservative Christians have been taught is a “cult” and that many others think is just weird. (Huntsman says he is not “overly religious.”) Rick Perry and Michele Bachmann are both affiliated with fervid subsets of evangelical Christianity — and Rick Santorum comes out of the most conservative wing of Catholicism — which has raised concerns about their respect for the separation of church and state, not to mention the separation of fact and fiction.

These candidates should be asked the following questions:

•Do you agree with those religious leaders who say that America is a “Christian nation” or a “Judeo-Christian nation?” and what does that mean in practice?

•Would you have any hesitation about appointing a Muslim to the federal bench? What about an atheist?

•What is your attitude toward the theory of evolution, and do you believe it should be taught in public schools?
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