Local Church Discussions  

Go Back   Local Church Discussions > Christian Movements/Ministries

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-07-2019, 09:52 AM   #1
UntoHim
Grateful Servant
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,957
Default LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Church

New informative website/blog concerning the Local Church of Witness Lee

-
-
__________________
Unto Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen. (Ephesians 3:21)
UntoHim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-07-2019, 05:38 PM   #2
Freedom
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,620
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

It looks like a lot of time was spent on this site, and I think it will be very informative to those who come across it.
__________________
Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.
Freedom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2019, 03:30 AM   #3
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 12,186
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

The site owner comes right out and identifies himself, which I found quite shocking. If he has any vulnerabilities at all, DCP will immediately swoop in to exploit them. Perhaps he is unaware of the dangers he faces.

Perhaps this exposes my suspicious nature towards those who regularly abuse their power, but how else do we explain the Casteel tragedy?
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-08-2019, 05:25 AM   #4
Sons to Glory!
Member
 
Sons to Glory!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 1,448
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

I've amazed that the domain name "thelordsrecovery.org" was available! I too was impressed that he came right out and IDed himself and gave his story.

I must also confess that I'm still surprised a little when people strongly use the word "cult" in connection with the LC, as this brother does. But reading this on his "About" page makes it pretty clear:

Quote:
The Recovery baited me with Jesus, the Bible, and talk of oneness of the church by means of the one Spirit of God. Then they started switching our devotion over to a man named Witness Lee, following him and his teachings only. Our “oneness” had nothing to do with God keeping us one; it was about Witness Lee.

I left the Recovery in 2017 for a few months, troubled by the clear deification of this man Witness Lee, but I eventually went back because I feared all of the discipline from God that the Recovery had convinced me was biblical.
The Lee deification wasn't so apparent to me in Berkeley in the 70s, or Columbus in the 80s. But I saw this firsthand when I visited the LC in Tacoma a few years ago, that is, Lee worship had replaced the fresh experience and testifying of Christ. (and I should also say that the fear of leaving the LC was starting to be instilled in us even back in the 70s)
__________________
LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now
Sons to Glory! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2019, 10:30 AM   #5
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Natal Transvaal
Posts: 5,132
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Quote:
Originally Posted by thelordsrecovery.org
It conditions its members into legalism. For example, a special elder called a “blended brother”, a speaker from the pulpit at a major national conference for the Recovery, says not to wear worldly clothing. That speaker is wearing a tie in a room that requires all men to wear a tie, obviously implying ties are somehow not worldly.
Good point, here. Ill-defined and arbitrarily-applied terms like "worldly" versus "proper" become levers for control. But no one questions, even if it begins to strain at absurdity, because no one wants to be "negative".
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2019, 10:44 AM   #6
Sons to Glory!
Member
 
Sons to Glory!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 1,448
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
Good point, here. Ill-defined and arbitrarily-applied terms like "worldly" versus "proper" become levers for control. But no one questions, even if it begins to strain at absurdity, because no one wants to be "negative".
I am so thankful to be with a group that doesn't impose any such nonsense, either overtly or covertly!! (at any gathering we might have people with ties on and also those wearing shorts & flip flops . . .) Having this kind of external focus is off the mark of pursuing Christ alone.
__________________
LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now
Sons to Glory! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-09-2019, 04:02 PM   #7
Freedom
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,620
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
Good point, here. Ill-defined and arbitrarily-applied terms like "worldly" versus "proper" become levers for control. But no one questions, even if it begins to strain at absurdity, because no one wants to be "negative".
It really is all about control. What makes matters even worse is that a lot of the rules are unspoken, so when someone does try to protest, there is gaslighting involved.

When I lived in a brothers house, there was a list of rules we had to agree to and sign: no secular music, no movie viewing, video games, etc. What was it that made any of these things wrong? I still don't know. But the rules were the rules. And I think in many cases (such as with myself), we were too naive to know any better, so they got away with calling some things worldly, other things spiritual. It was completely arbitrary.
__________________
Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.
Freedom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-10-2019, 11:03 PM   #8
Trapped
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 513
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

New article called "The Lord's Recovery is Elitist" up on the site.

I thoroughly enjoy that he uses ministry quotes......hard to refute Witness Lee's words that are physically in print.
Trapped is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2019, 12:25 AM   #9
FoemerChurchKid
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trapped View Post
New article called "The Lord's Recovery is Elitist" up on the site.

I thoroughly enjoy that he uses ministry quotes......hard to refute Witness Lee's words that are physically in print.
Now this is what I'm waiting for like Nigel Tomes' articles with quotes for refutation!
  Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2019, 03:03 AM   #10
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 12,186
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
When I lived in a brothers house, there was a list of rules we had to agree to and sign: no secular music, no movie viewing, video games, etc. What was it that made any of these things wrong? I still don't know. But the rules were the rules. And I think in many cases (such as with myself), we were too naive to know any better . . .
My how things have changed!

When I was in the brothers house, video games did not even exist, and one new brother had seen the movie "2001 Space Odyssey" 76 times (and counting).
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-11-2019, 06:02 PM   #11
Sons to Glory!
Member
 
Sons to Glory!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 1,448
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

FYI - I contacted the website owner, Jacob, and suggested he link to this forum on his resources page. He has now done so.
__________________
LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now
Sons to Glory! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2019, 01:32 PM   #12
JacobHoward
Member
 
JacobHoward's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 9
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Hey there! I'm Jacob Howard, the site owner and admin of thelordsrecovery.org.

I recently started a blog within the website, and the first blog entry is up on https://thelordsrecovery.org/2019/12...rch-romans-16/. Give it a read, and if you have any connections to current members, feel free to pass the site along!

One of the major manipulating factors that the Recovery uses to constrain its members into staying is that it offers only one right choice to members, one city being one church in name, the Recovery's genuine ground of oneness argument. This blog series attempts to address and debunk that.

Deconstructing these major and unorthodox doctrines by exposing their obvious logical fallacies can give members a fighting chance at being critical thinkers again, allowing them to look to God for truth rather than the Recovery. That's the aim of this blog series, and my prayer and hope is that it could empower members to leave and be free to serve the Lord alone.

God bless!
JacobHoward is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2019, 01:44 PM   #13
Sons to Glory!
Member
 
Sons to Glory!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 1,448
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Welcome to the LCD forum Jacob! I was the one that connected with you earlier regarding linking to this forum on your resource page.

The other thing they tell members is there is only one ministry, namely LSM. When the Lord got me past this erroneous thinking (Praise Him!!), I found many anointed authors/speakers out there and it opened up a whole new view of the body of Christ!
__________________
LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now
Sons to Glory! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2019, 01:50 PM   #14
JacobHoward
Member
 
JacobHoward's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 9
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Thanks for the welcome! Excited to be interfacing on here with the broader, established community.

I've named one blog "Deconstructing False Doctrine," currently with a specific blog series on One City, One Church (OCOC) doctrine. My hope is that OCOC will have several concise yet compelling expositions of clear logical fallacies that help members have "Aha!" moments.

One Ministry would most definitely be a blog series, but I'll make sure to keep each post short, sweet, and meaty.

There will be more blog series within Deconstructing False Doctrine, but OCOC is just the start. And with all of the resources available on here and help from the broader community, I think we're just getting started
JacobHoward is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-31-2019, 01:52 PM   #15
Freedom
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,620
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Quote:
Originally Posted by JacobHoward View Post
One of the major manipulating factors that the Recovery uses to constrain its members into staying is that it offers only one right choice to members, one city being one church in name, the Recovery's genuine ground of oneness argument. This blog series attempts to address and debunk that.

Deconstructing these major and unorthodox doctrines by exposing their obvious logical fallacies can give members a fighting chance at being critical thinkers again, allowing them to look to God for truth rather than the Recovery. That's the aim of this blog series, and my prayer and hope is that it could empower members to leave and be free to serve the Lord alone.
It's great to have these types of resources available. The LC is able to get away with much of what it teaches because they have made a particular point to silence all opposing viewpoints.

The more content like this that is available on the internet, the greater likelihood that people in the LC will come across it and maybe even begin to question the LC.
__________________
Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.
Freedom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2020, 04:29 AM   #16
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Natal Transvaal
Posts: 5,132
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
It's great to have these types of resources available. The LC is able to get away with much of what it teaches because they have made a particular point to silence all opposing viewpoints.

The more content like this that is available on the internet, the greater likelihood that people in the LC will come across it and maybe even begin to question the LC.
I completely agree. The more reasoned and distinct voices that are heard, the better for those who are trying to see through the fog. It's a tremendous resource for those who are being recruited and need an objective voice, and for those currently enmeshed in LC-thought and trying to find a way out.

Two suggested topics:

1. Why in the RecV footnotes is the Psalmist imprecating his enemy in one passage supposedly typifying Christ defeating Satan, whilst elsewhere it's panned as "fallen" and "natural" not to love one's enemy and turn the other cheek? Was David then wrong at throwing a rock at Goliath? Lee's interpretation of Psalms makes no sense and should be brought into the light of objective discussion and analysis.
2. Why do they sell books by Mary McDonough ("God's Plan of Redemption") on the LSM website, right next to Nee and Lee, and lionize other "founding sisters" like Barber, Peace Wang, Ruth Lee (etc etc) and yet say that women can't teach with any authority in the LC? Why did women have such prominent "recovery" roles 100 years ago, but none today? It doesn't make any sense.

There are other examples as well, some quite glaring. And the more that questions like these are put before the reading public, the more that the illogic underlying the Witness Lee Mind Conditioning Programme gets exposed. And it should be exposed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JacobHoward View Post
Deconstructing these major and unorthodox doctrines by exposing their obvious logical fallacies can give members a fighting chance at being critical thinkers again, allowing them to look to God for truth rather than the Recovery. That's the aim of this blog series, and my prayer and hope is that it could empower members to leave and be free to serve the Lord alone.
The strength of the site is also that, like the Casteel Open Letter, it's reasonable and thoughtful. The LC is based on emotional, soul-warping neediness (the proverbial co-dependent and dysfunctional relation of "I need you to do this") and clear thought is both a goal and a way out. Scripture is written, and we all can think about what's written, not just repetitively shout slogans.
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2020, 07:37 AM   #17
Sons to Glory!
Member
 
Sons to Glory!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 1,448
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
The strength of the site is also that, like the Casteel Open Letter, it's reasonable and thoughtful. The LC is based on emotional, soul-warping neediness (the proverbial co-dependent and dysfunctional relation of "I need you to do this") and clear thought is both a goal and a way out. Scripture is written, and we all can think about what's written, not just repetitively shout slogans.
And there is some real, critical back & forth between forum members. There are some very good "Bereans" on here who examine things in light of scripture . . . and don't let me get away with anything too wild. (and most of the time it is even done in love )
__________________
LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now
Sons to Glory! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-01-2020, 12:47 PM   #18
UntoHim
Grateful Servant
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 2,957
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Thanks Jacob for all your hard work and creativeness on LordsRecovery.Org! As far as I'm concerned, it will be a great information resource for current and former Local Church members, Christian apologists and leaders seeking information, concerned family and friends, and even the general public. Please feel free to "cross pollinate" LordsRecovery.Org with LocalChurchDiscussions.Com Of course you are also welcome to participate in our discussions here as much as your time and interest allow.
-
__________________
Unto Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen. (Ephesians 3:21)
UntoHim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2020, 06:31 PM   #19
JacobHoward
Member
 
JacobHoward's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 9
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

You bet! It's my pleasure! I'm happy to be a part of helping others live their lives free of the control the Lord's Recovery. I'd love to jump into some conversations on here, and I still want to get a bit of my testimony out on here!
JacobHoward is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2020, 06:38 PM   #20
JacobHoward
Member
 
JacobHoward's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 9
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
It's great to have these types of resources available. The LC is able to get away with much of what it teaches because they have made a particular point to silence all opposing viewpoints.

The more content like this that is available on the internet, the greater likelihood that people in the LC will come across it and maybe even begin to question the LC.
@Freedom, I really think you're spot on. I think the Recovery's grip on information control within itself is loosening faster than ever because of the Internet. They've had much of their control through propaganda and fear-mongering. I love how we have the means to reach new members, fully immersed members, ex-members, and non-members alike with solid information. Truly amazing!
JacobHoward is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-02-2020, 06:40 PM   #21
JacobHoward
Member
 
JacobHoward's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 9
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
I completely agree. The more reasoned and distinct voices that are heard, the better for those who are trying to see through the fog. It's a tremendous resource for those who are being recruited and need an objective voice, and for those currently enmeshed in LC-thought and trying to find a way out.

Two suggested topics...

...The strength of the site is also that, like the Casteel Open Letter, it's reasonable and thoughtful. The LC is based on emotional, soul-warping neediness (the proverbial co-dependent and dysfunctional relation of "I need you to do this") and clear thought is both a goal and a way out. Scripture is written, and we all can think about what's written, not just repetitively shout slogans.
Agreed! Thanks for the suggestions, too. Keep 'em coming! I just put up another blog https://thelordsrecovery.org/2020/01...-on-romans-16/, talking about how Witness Lee had no consistent arguments against Romans 16 and "one city, one church" doctrine. Praying and hoping it will help a member, new or fully immersed, to see through the gunk and get to the truth!
JacobHoward is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-04-2020, 07:43 AM   #22
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Natal Transvaal
Posts: 5,132
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Quote:
Originally Posted by JacobHoward View Post
Agreed! Thanks for the suggestions, too. Keep 'em coming! I just put up another blog https://thelordsrecovery.org/2020/01...-on-romans-16/, talking about how Witness Lee had no consistent arguments against Romans 16 and "one city, one church" doctrine. Praying and hoping it will help a member, new or fully immersed, to see through the gunk and get to the truth!
And thanks for your graciousness to listen to suggestions. Jesus promised, As one does to others (show grace by listening and considering), so others will do in return (show grace by paying attention). May we all have such hearts. Regarding Romans 16 and OCOC, your quote of Witness Lee is worth repeating.

Quote:
Witness Lee: The church in their house was the church in Rome. There were not two churches in Rome, one called the church in Rome and another which met in the house of Aquila and Prisca. The church in Rome simply met in the house of this couple, so there was a church in their house.
I'd add to your remarks, which were good (esp that of Cenchrea in Corinth), that the NT usage pattern shows 'ekklesia' fitting the previous scriptural context, that of the LXX Greek. "In the midst of the 'ekklesia' I will sing hymns of praise to you" ~Psa 22 etc. Ekklesia meant 'meeting' or 'gathering', so one could have multiple 'ekklesia' in one city. In the LC they do it, and label them 'meetings', like 'home meetings' and 'prayer meetings' and 'college-age meetings' and condemn everyone else who doesn't have their labeling system. It's subjectively biased, self-serving, and not based on logic logical at all. At it's core it's like there's an unhappy 6-year-old saying "I can do it, but you can't".

Acts 19:41 ~ "And with these words he dismissed the 'ekklesia'" - was this 'ekklesia' in Ephesus the Church in Ephesus? Of course not - it was a public gathering, which was threatening to become disorderly. So the town clerk dismissed the participants. Truth is, there are 'ekklesia' all over, in the NT view. Big cities can have many of them.

Another issue that could be raised is that in the LC, Watchman Nee is celebrated for using multiple sources, but his followers are effectively forbidden from copying this practice. I wrote this earlier:

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
"In many counselors is safety, and success", said Proverbs. Watchman Nee drew on this motif heavily, and his use of multiple sources was celebrated by Lee and other followers. Yet somehow with Nee, this adage was fulfilled and completed, and a new age had dawned? Somehow, after Nee, many counselors would only bring in confusion?

Does this make any sense? It makes no sense to me..
It really helps to show that we can critically and profitably examine concepts which conflict and contradict each other, and are non-sensical and irrational, and cause real human psychological distress. Being released from the grip of disjointed thinking is part of our journey home.
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2020, 02:40 AM   #23
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Natal Transvaal
Posts: 5,132
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Quote:
Originally Posted by JacobHoward View Post
Agreed! Thanks for the suggestions, too. Keep 'em coming!
If I may be somewhat importune, may I suggest "God's economy" as an area worth consideration? Some of us on this forum have looked at it and concluded (surprise) that there's nothing there. Or little, at any rate.

And "God's economy" is perhaps the best way to see the Lee mind meld, other than OCOC and a few other sacred LC teachings. (Think the opposite of the Spock mind meld in Star Trek: in this case Lee's thoughts become your own).

Everyone in the LC knows that Paul wrote Timothy to remain in Ephesus and to tell certain ones not to teach things other than "God's economy" (RecV translation) which is in faith. But Paul didn't say what "God's economy" was other than to link it with faith. In the LC we got book after book on "God's economy". It was God dispensing Himself into man to make man God in life and nature. It was enjoying Christ as everything for the building up of the body. It was the NT believer enjoying grace. It was man being made in God's image, to contain Him, like a glove contains the hand. Like a soda bottle being made to contain soda, man was made to contain God. This "dispensing" was "God's economy".

But if you look at Paul and Barnabas in Acts 12:25, they came to Antioch when the "dispensing" in Jerusalem was completed (RecV translation; others say "ministry" or "ministration" or "service"), and that dispensing wasn't of the type alluded to above. When the brothers in Jerusalem told Paul to "remember the poor" (Galatians 2:10), he didn't say, "No, sorry, that's a dead work - I'm here to enjoy Christ on the proper ground". No, Paul replied that he was eager to do it. If you look at Corinthians and Romans he makes some mention of this remembrance, that folks are to lay aside something for the poor of Jerusalem. Then at the end of Acts he told the opposing ones that after many years he returned to Jerusalem, bringing alms for his people (24:17). And this fits with the Jerusalem church, which was "daily dispensing" (Acts 6:1) to the widows and orphans, as Jesus had taught, and the OT commanded the righteous to do. Take care of those who can't care for themselves. Perhaps this is the "God's economy" that Paul alluded to in the epistle to Timothy.

Instead we got the selfish, self-oriented "enjoying God", which was then ripe for manipulation. Jesus taught to care for the despised other, and your reward would be great in heaven. There are two separate possible versions of "God's economy" seen here (there may be others, of course). I'll go with second version, which seems to have more scriptural support.
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2020, 04:27 AM   #24
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 12,186
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Quote:
Originally Posted by JacobHoward View Post
Agreed! Thanks for the suggestions, too. Keep 'em coming! I just put up another blog https://thelordsrecovery.org/2020/01...-on-romans-16/, talking about how Witness Lee had no consistent arguments against Romans 16 and "one city, one church" doctrine. Praying and hoping it will help a member, new or fully immersed, to see through the gunk and get to the truth!
JacobHoward in my study of this OCOC teaching in the New Testament, all of the apostles, except John in Revelation 2-3, failed to "see the vision." In fact, Paul was the worst offender. He obviously never got these naming conventions right. Nee and Lee would have had him quarantined for his "heresy."
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2020, 04:47 AM   #25
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 12,186
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Quote:
Originally Posted by JacobHoward View Post
Thanks for the welcome! Excited to be interfacing on here with the broader, established community.

I've named one blog "Deconstructing False Doctrine," currently with a specific blog series on One City, One Church (OCOC) doctrine. My hope is that OCOC will have several concise yet compelling expositions of clear logical fallacies that help members have "Aha!" moments.

One Ministry would most definitely be a blog series, but I'll make sure to keep each post short, sweet, and meaty.

There will be more blog series within Deconstructing False Doctrine, but OCOC is just the start. And with all of the resources available on here and help from the broader community, I think we're just getting started
JacobHoward have you seen the "ConcernedBrothers" website? It popped up during the Midwest quarantines to rebut LSM and DCP which used their "a faithful word" (what a joke!) website.

In the last decade, Nigel Tomes also has written numerous papers, well-researched, and undermine many tenets of the Recovery. He also has a sub-forum here. Unfortunately, there is no table of contents with links to all of his papers. Since LSMers invested so much to go after him, one has to wonder just how much impact he has had on their rank and file. What LSM fears most is truth, truth reaching their people, which truth they label "poison."
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2020, 11:50 AM   #26
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Natal Transvaal
Posts: 5,132
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
...at the end of Acts Paul told the opposing ones that after many years he returned to Jerusalem, bringing alms for his people (24:17). And this fits with the Jerusalem church, which was "daily dispensing" (6:1) to the widows and orphans, as Jesus had taught, and the OT commanded the righteous to do. Take care of those who can't care for themselves. Perhaps this is the "God's economy" that Paul alluded to in the epistle to Timothy..
OT commands

Psalm 41:1,2 For the choirmaster. A Psalm of David. Blessed is he who cares for the poor; the LORD will deliver him in the day of trouble. The LORD will protect and preserve him; He will bless him in the land and refuse to surrender him to the will of his foes.…

Deuteronomy 15:9-11 Be careful not to harbor this wicked thought in your heart: “The seventh year, the year of release, is near,” so that you look upon your poor brother begrudgingly and give him nothing. He will cry out to the LORD against you, and you will be guilty of sin. Give generously to him, and do not let your heart be grieved when you do so. And because of this the LORD your God will bless you in all your work and in everything to which you put your hand. For there will never cease to be poor in the land; that is why I am commanding you to open wide your hand to your brother and to the poor and needy in your land.…

Proverbs 22:9 A generous man will be blessed, for he shares his food with the poor.

Then you read Paul in 2 Cor 8 and 9, he goes into an extended riff on this. Like for most of 2 chapters. Gee, I wonder why? And who is the donation for - Paul's family business? A new headquarters building for his ministry? No, for the poor. The focus of the epistolic text is consistent, and follows the commands of Jesus, who fulfilled the OT commands.

This looks more like God's economy to me. And if you say that I can't prove it, well, Lee's "proof" was that "the whole Bible shows just this one thing" then he did a cut-and-paste job with verses. Paul never said God's economy was what WL said it was. My version is most clearly given in Galatians 2:10 -- the leading ones told Paul to remember the poor, and he replied that he was eager to do it. And I find this theme consistently in the Bible from beginning to end, with Jesus as exemplar. Look at him going to the dispossessed, telling the disciples to find and help "the least of these my brothers", look at Zacchaeus saying, "See, the half of my goods I give to the poor" and Jesus' approval and blessing, and the clear pattern of alignment with this theme in Acts and the epistles, as I showed earlier.

2 Cor 9:7-9 Each one should give what he has decided in his heart to give, not out of regret or compulsion. For God loves a cheerful giver. And God is able to make all grace abound to you, so that in all things, at all times, having all that you need, you will abound in every good work. As it is written: “He has scattered abroad His gifts to the poor; His righteousness endures forever.”…
____________

But my main point here, is that the burden of proof is on Witness Lee to show that "God's economy" was what he said it was. Where does Paul or Jesus or anyone say "God's economy is this Processed Triune God and spiritual dispensing"? No, it was stitched together out of disparate pictures and types.

I only offer my alternative as a reply to one who says, "Well, what else could it possibly be?" It could be something like what I have briefly outlined. Or it could be something else. But there's no proof that it was what Lee said it was. And Lee's version was self-oriented, which makes me doubly suspicious. My version is more closely aligned with the great command "Love thy neighbor as thyself". As are all the examples which I cited above.
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-07-2020, 05:57 PM   #27
JJ
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 922
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Paul was a man of his word:

https://biblehub.com/galatians/2-10.htm
__________________
And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:14 NASB)
JJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-08-2020, 02:37 AM   #28
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Natal Transvaal
Posts: 5,132
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ View Post
Paul was a man of his word:

https://biblehub.com/galatians/2-10.htm
Yes, in addition to being "eager" to help the poor of Jerusalem in Galatians 2, we see his lengthy discourses in 2 Cor 8 and 9, and this section in Roman's 15:

25 Now, however, I am on my way to Jerusalem in the service of the Lord’s people there. 26 For Macedonia and Achaia were pleased to make a contribution for the poor among the Lord’s people in Jerusalem. 27 They were pleased to do it, and indeed they owe it to them. For if the Gentiles have shared in the Jews’ spiritual blessings, they owe it to the Jews to share with them their material blessings. 28 So after I have completed this task and have made sure that they have received this contribution, I will go to Spain and visit you on the way. 29 I know that when I come to you, I will come in the full measure of the blessing of Christ.

And then you have his public declaration in Acts 24:17 that he'd returned bringing alms for his people. Paul was not merely a man of his word, but clearly believed that he was keeping the commands of the Lord, as did all the apostles. So why isn't that God's economy?

Conversely, how can the wordsmiths of Anaheim show us that their version of God's economy is instead the correct interpretation, versus this or any other? Other than that their version was perhaps more effective in luring naiive young people, or "good building material", versus actually going out and helping others who couldn't repay you in this age? Jesus taught that if you do this, your reward would be great in heaven.

Or is Jesus' word, and Paul and Peter and James and John's obedience to this word, merely a "low gospel" which has been superseded by abstractions culled from snippets here and there? Lee would give us things like 1 Corinthians 15:45 "b" - I just gave 5 verses from Romans 15, plus all those other verses. Read 2 Corinthians 8 and 9 sometime. It's spelled out in great detail what Paul is doing. Again, the money is not going for Paul or his cohort, or 'guanxi network' - it's going to the poor. Same thing with Peter and John in the first chapters of Acts, with Paul and Barnabas in Acts 12:25. It's a dispensing quite different from the one Witness Lee was presenting us.

It's something to consider. But in the LC, consideration wasn't encouraged. Instead, blind thoughtless obedience to the ministry was encouraged. So I'm presenting an alternative, if anyone is interested. And I'm glad to see folks like Jo Casteel and Jacob Howard publicly speaking up.
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2020, 12:51 PM   #29
JacobHoward
Member
 
JacobHoward's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 9
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Hi there, all! The new explanation regarding repetitive comparison based teaching ("us vs. them") in the Thread is now available on thelordsrecovery.org.

https://thelordsrecovery.org/thread/...-conditions-1/
JacobHoward is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-18-2020, 01:23 PM   #30
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Natal Transvaal
Posts: 5,132
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Quote:
Originally Posted by JacobHoward View Post
The new explanation regarding repetitive comparison based teaching ("us vs. them") in the Thread is now available..
Effective writing, powerfully constructed case. Clear, logical, concise, simple layout, moderate in tone, easy to follow. I read the whole thing in a few minutes. Great resource for the interested public.

And it fits my memory of the experience. You'd sit under this kind of speaking and get sucked in. Unless you actively resisted, you'd acquiesce and become elitist.
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2020, 12:11 PM   #31
Sons to Glory!
Member
 
Sons to Glory!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 1,448
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Thanks for posting! As I read through it, I realized that this is not a display of love as conveyed in 1st Corinthians chapter 13. Love does not seek its own. Love is not puffed-up and doesn't think of itself in a way that exalts itself.

At the end of his life, Lee publicly confessed that love was the missing ingredient in The Recovery.

What does Jesus have to say? "By this all people will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another." (John 13:35)

What does Paul have to say? "If I do not have love, then I am nothing!" (1 Cor 13:2)
__________________
LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now
Sons to Glory! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-19-2020, 04:18 PM   #32
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 12,186
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sons to Glory! View Post
At the end of his life, Lee publicly confessed that love was the missing ingredient in The Recovery.
But when he said this, we all were convinced that it was all our fault there was no love. Never, until I left the program, did I realize that most of us came into the Recovery with lots of love, and then slowly it was gone.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2020, 07:20 AM   #33
Sons to Glory!
Member
 
Sons to Glory!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 1,448
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
But when he said this, we all were convinced that it was all our fault there was no love.
Well good - you took some accountability!
__________________
LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now
Sons to Glory! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2020, 08:29 AM   #34
OBW
Member
 
OBW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: DFW area
Posts: 4,198
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sons to Glory! View Post
Well good - you took some accountability!
Yes, we are accountable for the lack of love. But the reason for the lack of love was that it was drained away from us through the pesha (see the thread on truth) of Lee. And that pesha came to include others who join with him to carry that draining out, and now take Lee's place as the ones who are breaking trust.
__________________
Mike
I once thought I was. . . . but I may have been mistaken — Edge (with apologies)
OBW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2020, 09:02 AM   #35
Sons to Glory!
Member
 
Sons to Glory!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 1,448
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW View Post
Yes, we are accountable for the lack of love. But the reason for the lack of love was that it was drained away from us through the pesha (see the thread on truth) of Lee. And that pesha came to include others who join with him to carry that draining out, and now take Lee's place as the ones who are breaking trust.
And of course leadership does have that accountability too, and according to scripture a higher accountability to lead us correctly. I am certainly aware how easily us sheep are influenced, especially when we're younger and less mature in our walk with the Lord.

Back then I had nothing to compare the LC with, other than the Free Methodist gathering I was saved through when a youngster. As someone recently (maybe on this forum) pointed out, they easiest way to tell if a stick is crooked is to place a straight one alongside it . . .
__________________
LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now
Sons to Glory! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2020, 10:11 AM   #36
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 12,186
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Quote:
Originally Posted by OBW View Post
Yes, we are accountable for the lack of love. But the reason for the lack of love was that it was drained away from us through the pesha (see the thread on truth) of Lee. And that pesha came to include others who join with him to carry that draining out, and now take Lee's place as the ones who are breaking trust.
I agree with this. Think about this destructive teaching by Lee that "natural love is honey, which spoils the offering." That alone killed brotherly love in many a brother and sister.

WL and Company taught us that the only "safe" love was our love for his ministry. Even our love for the Lord, based on His word, was risky. John Ingalls was condemned for following his own conscience. I was told that "coming back to the pure word of God" was a tactic of he enemy.

In part, Lee produced Laodicean arrogance and pride by demanding allegiance to him and his ministry, and to him and his ministry alone.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2020, 11:26 AM   #37
Sons to Glory!
Member
 
Sons to Glory!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 1,448
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
I agree with this. Think about this destructive teaching by Lee that "natural love is honey, which spoils the offering."
That in itself is not really true - pure honey doesn't go bad!
__________________
LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now
Sons to Glory! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2020, 01:03 PM   #38
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 12,186
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sons to Glory! View Post
That in itself is not really true - pure honey doesn't go bad!
God promised Israel a land "flowing with milk and honey," and then Lee taught us it represented "natural love" which supposedly was bad.

Somebody needs to do some fact-checking on Lee's teachings.

This one gets 4 Pinocchios.

__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2020, 01:08 PM   #39
Sons to Glory!
Member
 
Sons to Glory!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 1,448
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
God promised Israel a land "flowing with milk and honey," and then Lee taught us it represented "natural love" which supposedly was bad.

Somebody needs to do some fact-checking on Lee's teachings.

This one gets 4 Pinocchios.

"As I look around me, all I see is untapped potential! You've got potential (oh my . . .) You've got . . . " I couldn't resist!
__________________
LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now
Sons to Glory! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-20-2020, 08:40 PM   #40
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 12,186
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sons to Glory! View Post
"As I look around me, all I see is untapped potential! You've got potential (oh my . . .) You've got . . . " I couldn't resist!

Reminds me of one of my first meetings in the LC, TC takes me up to meet Max Rapoport who said I was an "overcomer," with so much "potential."
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2020, 01:38 AM   #41
Sons to Glory!
Member
 
Sons to Glory!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 1,448
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
Reminds me of one of my first meetings in the LC, TC takes me up to meet Max Rapoport who said I was an "overcomer," with so much "potential."
Well you are an overcomer - you overcame the 12,000 messages posted mark on here!

Congrats! LL
__________________
LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now
Sons to Glory! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2020, 02:34 AM   #42
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Natal Transvaal
Posts: 5,132
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Quote:
Originally Posted by JacobHoward View Post
The new explanation regarding repetitive comparison based teaching ("us vs. them") in the Thread is now posted
A point worth noting in the "us vs them" dynamic as often played out: in order to define "them" in this dynamic, the other party becomes a caricature. Here, one's presented with something called "Christianity" which supposedly has all these inferior aspects. But WL hadn't been active in "Christianity" for decades, and as JH notes, he lacked the near-omniscience needed to make such categorical assessments as bases of comparison.

Sometimes on this forum we make the same error of overgeneralization, and I've seen replies from the LC faithful, "That's not my experience!" But the LordsRecovery.org thread is using WL's own writings as basis of the critique in question, so it's a fairly solid position.
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2020, 07:24 AM   #43
Sons to Glory!
Member
 
Sons to Glory!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 1,448
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
What WL did was poison the minds of LC members towards their non-LC fellows, with stereotypes and prejudices, to make fellowship (interaction) more difficult.
Exactly! Took a decade for the Lord to, just a little bit, overcome that stigma in me!
__________________
LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now
Sons to Glory! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2020, 08:04 AM   #44
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 12,186
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
A point worth noting in the "us vs them" dynamic as often played out: in order to define "them" in this dynamic, the other party becomes a caricature. Here, one's presented with something called "Christianity" which supposedly has all these inferior aspects. But WL hadn't been active in "Christianity" for decades, and as JH notes, he lacked the near-omniscience needed to make such categorical assessments as bases of comparison.
I regularly watched WL compare the best of the Recovery to the worst of so-called Christianity.

Why no fair comparisons? Why not compare some newly baptized on-fire believer in Nowhereville to his profligate Office Manager, Philip Lee?
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2020, 09:21 AM   #45
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Natal Transvaal
Posts: 5,132
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
I regularly watched WL compare the best of the Recovery to the worst of so-called Christianity.

Why no fair comparisons? Why not compare some newly baptized on-fire believer in Nowhereville to his profligate Office Manager, Philip Lee?
We were led by these constant and unfair comparisons to believe that the Recovery at its worst was equal to the best of fallen, compromised, "Babylon Christianity". Now, thanks to posters like Indiana finding out the "hidden history in the Lord's Recovery", the public has become aware of Daystar Motorhomes, Philip Lee as the Office, the "spiritual sisters' rebellion", the "Young Galileans affair" etc etc.

So now the common refrain is, "Hey, nobody's perfect. Every group has their issues. Why pick on us?"

Um, the incessant narrative for years was belittlement and superiority. Now the defense has become, "Everybody does it"? My, how the worm has turned.
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2020, 09:53 AM   #46
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 12,186
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
We were led by these constant and unfair comparisons to believe that the Recovery at its worst was equal to the best of fallen, compromised, "Babylon Christianity". Now, thanks to posters like Indiana finding out the "hidden history in the Lord's Recovery", the public has become aware of Daystar Motorhomes, Philip Lee as the Office, the "spiritual sisters' rebellion", the "Young Galileans affair" etc etc.

So now the common refrain is, "Hey, nobody's perfect. Every group has their issues. Why pick on us?"

Um, the incessant narrative for years was belittlement and superiority. Now the defense has become, "Everybody does it"? My, how the worm has turned.
As with former President Nixon, it's all about the coverup. Eh?

Everybody is entitled to a bad kid or two, but you don't put him in charge of your ministry. And when he screws your volunteers, you don't go kill the reporters.

Was this really too difficult for the consummate MOTA to understand? I seem to remember that he taught us not to do all the things that he did, because only Christianity behaves like that.

Like Nixon, obsessed with recording everything, he should have turned off the tape recorders.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-21-2020, 10:11 AM   #47
Sons to Glory!
Member
 
Sons to Glory!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 1,448
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
As with former President Nixon, it's all about the coverup. Eh?

Everybody is entitled to a bad kid or two, but you don't put him in charge of your ministry. And when he screws your volunteers, you don't go kill the reporters.

Was this really too difficult for the consummate MOTA to understand? I seem to remember that he taught us not to do all the things that he did, because only Christianity behaves like that.

Like Nixon, obsessed with recording everything, he should have turned off the tape recorders.
I think Lee was under some kind of pressure to act like an overcomer, since that was a big part of his ministry, and overcomers supposedly don't exhibit those faults. So pride is suspect here . . .
__________________
LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now
Sons to Glory! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-25-2020, 01:44 PM   #48
JacobHoward
Member
 
JacobHoward's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 9
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Hey, everyone! Happy weekend!

I've just posted an entry in "Deconstructing False Doctrine" on Minister of the Age doctrine (MOTA). The first entry talks about what Witness Lee taught, how members reacted, and what the Bible actually says (https://thelordsrecovery.org/2020/01...corinthians-3/).

Please consider sharing with your Recovery friends, and pray for them to leave!
JacobHoward is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-26-2020, 08:07 AM   #49
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Natal Transvaal
Posts: 5,132
Default Becoming God in a limited sense

Quote:
Originally Posted by JacobHoward View Post
I've just posted an entry in "Deconstructing False Doctrine" on Minister of the Age doctrine (MOTA). The first entry talks about what Witness Lee taught, how members reacted, and what the Bible actually says (https://thelordsrecovery.org/2020/01...corinthians-3/).
Not that you need my seal of approval, but good job. And "deconstructing" is a good word for the title. The whole thing is a construction, that needs to be worked down to its root. Because it's all built on the slenderest of reeds.

Another idea worth deconstructing: that we become God.

http://www.forthetruth.org/pdfs/02_02_a1.pdf

"We are mindful of the fact that many will react in dismay, perhaps in horror, to find themselves confronted with the assertion that in Christ and through God's complete salvation we who believe in Christ and are in Christ will become God in the limited sense posited here."

This limitation is stated as:

1. Without any essential change in the Godhead
2. Not the same as God in rank or position
3. Not as an object of worship

But supposedly we're becoming God in life and nature.

I noted the qualifier, the "limited sense" of being God. My cat is a member of my family, in a limited sense. It lives inside the house and eats food. By the same token, my cat is like my dog in that both have 4 legs, a tail, and fur. I'm like the Queen Mary in a limited sense, that we both can float in the ocean.

But as suggested above, "being like" something and becoming that something are two different ontological propositions. Seems to me that this is especially true when the two things compared are fallen, created, sinful human beings and sinless Creator. I mean, yes we are "like God" in some limited sense, but those very limitations make "becoming God" an empty phrase. Too many qualifiers, all imposed by the same fallen, finite human being, on who and what God is (and is not). How can we in our ignorance - we see, but darkly, said Paul - define "God" sufficiently in order to place ourselves as "God" in some limited capacity? Does God by definition have these constraints we place on ourselves?

I'm not sure all this asserting and positing is within our purview, unless our purview is to publish documents, and sell them. Beyond generating revenue and filling sermon time I'm not sure what utility it really serves.

My reaction isn't horror nor dismay, but simply a critique, or disagreement, a la LSM's own "Affirmation and Critique". I don't think the idea makes much sense, or has much value.

Put differently, what's the point of pushing conjecture that you state will elicit horror and/or dismay among many of your readers? Will the conceptual value of "becoming God" really be a spur to their human living, any more than "We all have to stand at the Judgment Seat of Christ, to give account of whatever we've done"? How is an idea with such tenuous and debatable logic going to bring us all somewhere good?
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-27-2020, 05:50 PM   #50
Curious
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 102
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

If we are becoming 'God in life and nature', then why are those persons still subject to the conditions of the fall... such as ageing, disease and death. These things would be eliminated, surely, alongside the idea that we will shed our sinfulness by being 'constituted' with God's being.

The other curses of the fall should drop away too, should they not? Also the miracle working power that Jesus and the apostles had. Maybe some Shekinah Glory that was evident on the face of Moses and others might be evident on their faces too? Observable to those in their presence?

Anyway, maybe LC has a provision to account for the limitations of 'becoming God in life and nature but not the Godhead' but I haven't heard of them. Or maybe they just haven't developed their theory further enough to wonder about these logical potential outworkings?
Curious is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2020, 05:20 AM   #51
Sons to Glory!
Member
 
Sons to Glory!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 1,448
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Curious View Post
If we are becoming 'God in life and nature', then why are those persons still subject to the conditions of the fall... such as ageing, disease and death. These things would be eliminated, surely, alongside the idea that we will shed our sinfulness by being 'constituted' with God's being.

The other curses of the fall should drop away too, should they not? Also the miracle working power that Jesus and the apostles had. Maybe some Shekinah Glory that was evident on the face of Moses and others might be evident on their faces too? Observable to those in their presence?

Anyway, maybe LC has a provision to account for the limitations of 'becoming God in life and nature but not the Godhead' but I haven't heard of them. Or maybe they just haven't developed their theory further enough to wonder about these logical potential outworkings?
I'm not siding with WL here, but this doesn't appear to be a good argument! That is, there are many things of Christ in us that are not manifested yet (in this current life). That is why we need faith, right? If all the promises were apparent and seen, then there would be no need for faith and hope.
__________________
LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now
Sons to Glory! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2020, 05:43 AM   #52
aron
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Natal Transvaal
Posts: 5,132
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sons to Glory! View Post
I'm not siding with WL here, but this doesn't appear to be a good argument! That is, there are many things of Christ in us that are not manifested yet (in this current life). That's why we need faith, right? If all the promises were apparent and seen, then there would be no need for faith and hope.
Jesus told them repeatedly, "Believe because of the works". There should be some issue. ~John 10:25; 37-38; 14:9-11

In the LC "grace on steroids" programme, all you had to do was come to meetings, meetings, meetings, say "amen" when the brother speaks, and you will "absorb God" and leave with "more God" than when you came in. I heard this right from the current Blendeds, standing on the dais, years ago.

And although it seems I'm veering on a tangent, it's related to the MOTA doctrine Jacob Howard raised, because if MOTA says you're becoming God by continually sitting in a chair, well there it is. Right? I mean, if MOTA has spoken, that's now the "present truth" and "the vision of the age".
__________________
"Freedom is free. It's slavery that's so horribly expensive" - Colonel Templeton, ret., of the 12th Scottish Highlanders, the 'Black Fusiliers'
aron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2020, 12:03 PM   #53
JacobHoward
Member
 
JacobHoward's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 9
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Hey there, everyone!

Finally got the first blog up for deconstructing the thousand-year discipline (TYD) doctrine (https://thelordsrecovery.org/2020/02...ew-812-part-1/).

It digs into a singular, baseless assertion from Witness Lee, with which he uses as evidence for TYD. There's much more to come in this series!

After digging into the Scriptures and combing through commentaries, it's never been more crystal clear to me that TYD is biblically unfounded. There's no special "believers-only" condemnation after this life. I'm excited to deconstruct TYD further.

Have a great afternoon!
JacobHoward is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-11-2020, 02:25 PM   #54
byHismercy
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Pacific Northwest
Posts: 435
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

I can't wait to read your findings, Jacob. This was a question I have had since coming out of the local church. I just don't believe it is scriptural. The church is not appointed to wrath. I was threatened with 1,000 year separation from God twice by LCers. But I see the opposite promise to believers in the word. Nothing can remove us from His hand.
byHismercy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2020, 05:33 AM   #55
Sons to Glory!
Member
 
Sons to Glory!'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Scottsdale, AZ
Posts: 1,448
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Quote:
Originally Posted by JacobHoward View Post
Hey there, everyone!

Finally got the first blog up for deconstructing the thousand-year discipline (TYD) doctrine (https://thelordsrecovery.org/2020/02...ew-812-part-1/).

It digs into a singular, baseless assertion from Witness Lee, with which he uses as evidence for TYD. There's much more to come in this series!

After digging into the Scriptures and combing through commentaries, it's never been more crystal clear to me that TYD is biblically unfounded. There's no special "believers-only" condemnation after this life. I'm excited to deconstruct TYD further.

Have a great afternoon!
That was an excellent and simple presentation of the Matthew 8:10-12 passage! I think the point is clearly made here that "the sons of the kingdom" who will be "thrown into outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth" are the disbelieving Jews. Thank you!

This topic had been discussed on a forum thread last year (I think) and my takeaway was the whole TYD of WL was not well founded, and this passage in Matthew 8 couldn't be clearer. WL advocated rewards and severe punishment (outer darkness) for believers, but my thinking is it is more about rewards or the loss thereof related to our works (not connected to eternal salvation) rather than "punishment." I assume you will also be touching on the matter of rewards and potential loss for believers, right?
__________________
LC Berkeley 70s; LC Columbus OH 80s; An Ekklesia in Scottsdale 98-now
Sons to Glory! is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-12-2020, 08:19 AM   #56
JacobHoward
Member
 
JacobHoward's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 9
Default Re: LordsRecovery.Org Exposing the Christian Cult of Witness Lee's Local Ch

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sons to Glory! View Post
I assume you will also be touching on the matter of rewards and potential loss for believers, right?
Most definitely! These blogs have been pretty difficult for me because I want to write forever, without conciseness, ha! I want to debunk an entire doctrine in one long, unorganized post, but then I realize the value in making each point abundantly clear and sufficiently researched, concise.

I most definitely want to get into suffering loss; I've been appreciating coming back to the Word for all of this. 1 Corinthians 3 has been on repeat for me! I think the first goal I have in mind is proving that "suffering loss" is not TYD, and then it would be very beneficial to talk about what that could be.

My personal belief is that (with help from the Amplified Version of the Bible), "suffering loss" is either referring to losing what you built (your deeds) in your lifetime or the reward that you would've earned from those works had your building withstood the fire (the day of judgement's testing). If there are several schools of thought around one particular teaching, all with validly biblical foundations, I'd like to present those as well.
JacobHoward is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:28 AM.


3.8.9