Local Church Discussions  

Go Back   Local Church Discussions > The Local Church in the 21st Century

The Local Church in the 21st Century Observations and Discussions regarding the Local Church Movement in the Here and Now

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-06-2015, 05:48 PM   #1
Terry
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 3,334
Default Defense and Confirmation Project

DCP appears to have begun in 2002.
http://www.faqs.org/tax-exempt/CA/De...oject-Inc.html

The acronym DCP stands for Defense and Confirmation Project. Defense for what? Legal defense?
LSM and the local churches have engaged I litigation or threats of litigation since the 1970's. Most prominently was in regard to The Mindbenders and The God-men.
DCP figured prominently in the lawsuit against Harvest House and the propaganda found at afaithfulword.org
Since then, DCP has been fairly silent. If DCP is really in the mode of defense against those whose speaking is contrary to LSM interests, nothing is being done. The writings of Jane Anderson, Steve, Isitt, Nigel Tomes, and that of writers pre-dating DCP (John Ingalls, John So, etc) has gone on unabated.
It's almost as if their focus is not so much in defending, but in ensuring member retention.
__________________
"Even a neutral has a right to take account of facts, even a neutral cannot be asked to close his mind or close his conscience."- Franklin D. Roosevelt
Terry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2015, 05:53 AM   #2
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 12,397
Default Re: DCP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
DCP appears to have begun in 2002.
http://www.faqs.org/tax-exempt/CA/De...oject-Inc.html

The acronym DCP stands for Defense and Confirmation Project. Defense for what? Legal defense?
LSM and the local churches have engaged I litigation or threats of litigation since the 1970's. Most prominently was in regard to The Mindbenders and The God-men.
DCP figured prominently in the lawsuit against Harvest House and the propaganda found at afaithfulword.org
Since then, DCP has been fairly silent. If DCP is really in the mode of defense against those whose speaking is contrary to LSM interests, nothing is being done. The writings of Jane Anderson, Steve, Isitt, Nigel Tomes, and that of writers pre-dating DCP (John Ingalls, John So, etc) has gone on unabated.
It's almost as if their focus is not so much in defending, but in ensuring member retention.
How many ministries out there have an in-house legal staff ready to sue any and all critics of their favorite preacher?

I once saw a chart of all the lawsuits and threats of lawsuits that LSM & DCP have engaged in over the years. Just incredible. Then read I Corinthians 6.

But then these spinmasters will attempt to convince us that they were not suing for filthy lucre, but they were merely being faithful to FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT OF THE FAITH.

Whatever guys. Unfortunately I used to believe this bullship.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2015, 06:39 AM   #3
awareness
Member
 
awareness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 7,605
Default Re: DCP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
DCP appears to have begun in 2002.
http://www.faqs.org/tax-exempt/CA/De...oject-Inc.html

The acronym DCP stands for Defense and Confirmation Project. Defense for what? Legal defense?
LSM and the local churches have engaged I litigation or threats of litigation since the 1970's. Most prominently was in regard to The Mindbenders and The God-men.
DCP figured prominently in the lawsuit against Harvest House and the propaganda found at afaithfulword.org
Since then, DCP has been fairly silent. If DCP is really in the mode of defense against those whose speaking is contrary to LSM interests, nothing is being done. The writings of Jane Anderson, Steve, Isitt, Nigel Tomes, and that of writers pre-dating DCP (John Ingalls, John So, etc) has gone on unabated.
It's almost as if their focus is not so much in defending, but in ensuring member retention.
Is it possible Terry to see their books? Or maybe Income Statement? That might explain a lot about DCP. As in, where does the money come from and to what does it go.
__________________
Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2015, 08:57 AM   #4
Dave
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 641
Default Re: DCP

Quote:
Originally Posted by awareness View Post
Is it possible Terry to see their books? Or maybe Income Statement? That might explain a lot about DCP. As in, where does the money come from and to what does it go.
i have looked at the LCM and what Ron Kangas etc were paid was listed. Here is the DCP info:
http://nonprofits.findthecompany.com...on-Project-Inc

http://www.guidestar.org/organizatio...n-project.aspx

You have to login to guidestar but the 990 form is the most revealing. Anyway, this just gets one started to discovering the info you are asking. Check out the financial statement for the first link as well as Compensation.
__________________
LC 1969-1978 Santa Cruz, Detroit, Ft. Lauderdale, Miami
Dave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2015, 11:31 AM   #5
Freedom
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,637
Default Re: DCP

First off, I would say that the need for an entity such as the DCP is indicative that the LC will eventually die off. It’s not to say that there is a mass exodus or anything like that, but I believe the days of the LC are numbered. The way I think of it is this: in the early days, when the LC was arguably much more ‘radical’ than it is today, people were flocking in all over the place, in spite of any opposition or the newly formed labels of the LC being cultic or aberrant. In other words, there was a point in time that the LC didn’t need any so-called “positive” publicity to convince new members to join.

At some point all this stalled out, probably when the cult label started catching up to them, and thus began the need for positive publicity. In retrospect this should have been the point in time where they started asking the hard questions that they should have been asking themselves. It was probably already too late, because Lee was perceived as the infallible teacher who “even when he’s wrong he’s right”. That’s actually the issue IMO. The most bizarre teachings and practices that came into the LC were things that should have been rejected, but no one dared to contradict or question Lee. Because these things generative a certain undesirable perception of the LC couldn’t be rejected, they had to embark upon alternative routes to try to change the perception.

When I was young, my only reaction to the Harvest House lawsuit was thinking to myself that hopefully it would clear up the name of the LC. I had the same thought when the CRI came out in support of the LC. I never had much thought why outsiders criticized us so much. I was defensive enough about the LC to want to react to criticism rather than to want to address any of the difficult questions as to why there was criticism of the LC in the first place. I suppose this is the case for many members.

Over time, as I became more and more disenchanted with my LC experience, I came to the realization that a lot of the teachings and practices that concerned me were the very things that concerned others. No matter how pro-LC I was, I never liked the shouting at the top of lungs frenzy that members would get themselves into. I didn’t like the subtle attempts to manipulate and control people. I never felt comfortable with various other practices as well. I finally had to admit to myself that if the LC wanted a better reputation, the first thing they could so would be to drop certain teachings and practices. Of course, I didn’t realize that this would never happen in the LC, but I did realized that the fact they were suing other Christians without so much as a retraction or any admission of guilt was completely ludicrous.

Frankly speaking, it is all very tragic. I don’t harbor any vendetta against the LC (even though I have every right to), I just want to see that members and outsiders alike would have the ability to learn both sides of the story, and then make an informed decision about the LC. Reputation is something that is built, and if the end result is a negative reputation, that should raise questions and be a catalyst for change.
__________________
Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.
Freedom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2015, 11:52 AM   #6
awareness
Member
 
awareness's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Posts: 7,605
Default Re: DCP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave View Post
i have looked at the LCM and what Ron Kangas etc were paid was listed. Here is the DCP info:
http://nonprofits.findthecompany.com...on-Project-Inc

http://www.guidestar.org/organizatio...n-project.aspx

You have to login to guidestar but the 990 form is the most revealing. Anyway, this just gets one started to discovering the info you are asking. Check out the financial statement for the first link as well as Compensation.
Great finds Dave. So it appears the purpose of DCP is to pay bros and sisters ... if there are any sisters on the payroll. What a racket!!!

Anyway : follow the money.

And, I'm shy about joining sites. What kind of info did they require? And did you save the pages down to your hard drive. If so hit me in email.
__________________
Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to.
awareness is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2015, 11:58 AM   #7
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 12,397
Default Re: DCP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
First off, I would say that the need for an entity such as the DCP is indicative that the LC will eventually die off.

The way I think of it is this: in the early days, when the LC was arguably much more ‘radical’ than it is today, people were flocking in all over the place.
If I were to go poll all the old LC members of my youth, I bet every one would say that the Lord was there in a living and real way. They came and stayed for Christ and His church. Few were "caught" by Lee or his exclusive teachings. There was much liberty of the Spirit rarely found elsewhere. Nearly everyone had exciting testimonies of the Lord in their lives.

You are right about the LC's dying off without LSM. It has become that way by design. Every storm in Anaheim chased off independent thinkers and fruitful ministers. Titus Chu's quest for domination via public humiliations saw a steady stream of departures in my area, most of them being gifted shepherds, evangelists, and teachers. Those who are left in the system are like those 40 year old adult kids who never left home, because they would "die out there."

I am convinced that the anointing of the Spirit departed long ago due to numerous coverups of unrighteousness at LSM and their man-exalting program. This has produced a man-pleasing system full of hypocrisy not much different from the Pharisees of old.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2015, 05:24 PM   #8
Freedom
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,637
Default Re: DCP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
If I were to go poll all the old LC members of my youth, I bet every one would say that the Lord was there in a living and real way. They came and stayed for Christ and His church. Few were "caught" by Lee or his exclusive teachings. There was much liberty of the Spirit rarely found elsewhere. Nearly everyone had exciting testimonies of the Lord in their lives.

You are right about the LC's dying off without LSM. It has become that way by design. Every storm in Anaheim chased off independent thinkers and fruitful ministers. Titus Chu's quest for domination via public humiliations saw a steady stream of departures in my area, most of them being gifted shepherds, evangelists, and teachers. Those who are left in the system are like those 40 year old adult kids who never left home, because they would "die out there."

I am convinced that the anointing of the Spirit departed long ago due to numerous coverups of unrighteousness at LSM and their man-exalting program. This has produced a man-pleasing system full of hypocrisy not much different from the Pharisees of old.
I'm sure the LC of yesteryear was a completely different cast of characters, most of whom have long left. I've known some ex-LC members my whole. What I think many current LC members fail to realize is that aside from all the hype going on, they are simply replaying a story that many before them have already lived through, with a less that desirable ending.

Those who have been around for a while are probably there because they think there's nothing better out there, or that they've already invested too much of their lives to leave. At any rate, I think the reality of the situation is that the LC has limited ability to keep members fully with the program.

So how does a system like the LC keep current members on board, and even recruit new members despite the constant stream of departures and continual negative publicity? It seems that in regards to current members, the strategy is to control the flow of information. In regards to outsiders, the goal is mainly the exoneration of WL, or for those who know nothing of the LC, to present WL as the "hidden gem" that people haven't discovered.

I'm not convinced at all that DCP's work has done anything to improve the image of WL, much less to get people interested in his ministry. The lawsuits do the complete opposite of that, and if they had any bit of common sense, they would realize this. Even if they did manage to convince people that Lee's teachings aren't aberrant, whose to say that would generate any particular interest in WL?

For LC leaders, I'm sure they perceive the writings of ex-members to be the biggest threat. Ever since the internet has been around, I can remember hearing warnings about negative material on the internet. It always made me wonder if this "vision of the age" we saw through the "ministry of the age" is really that compelling, how could members be "poisoned" so easily? It never made any sense to me, until I realized there was a whole different side to the story that I wasn't being told. As long as they were able to instill and reinforce an unfounded fear of the internet, they could control the flow of information. Once I began to think for myself, this tactic of theirs could do nothing to stop me. I also realized that they had by no means addressed LC concerns that they would be expected to address. Needless to say, they are in a bit of a precarious position, because the minute they fail to control the flow of information, the whole system will begin to crumble right before their eyes.
__________________
Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.
Freedom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2015, 06:03 PM   #9
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 12,397
Default Re: DCP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
I'm sure the LC of yesteryear was a completely different cast of characters, most of whom have long left. I've known some ex-LC members my whole. What I think many current LC members fail to realize is that aside from all the hype going on, they are simply replaying a story that many before them have already lived through, with a less that desirable ending.

Those who have been around for a while are probably there because they think there's nothing better out there, or that they've already invested too much of their lives to leave. At any rate, I think the reality of the situation is that the LC has limited ability to keep members fully with the program.

So how does a system like the LC keep current members on board, and even recruit new members despite the constant stream of departures and continual negative publicity? It seems that in regards to current members, the strategy is to control the flow of information. In regards to outsiders, the goal is mainly the exoneration of WL, or for those who know nothing of the LC, to present WL as the "hidden gem" that people haven't discovered.

I'm not convinced at all that DCP's work has done anything to improve the image of WL, much less to get people interested in his ministry. The lawsuits do the complete opposite of that, and if they had any bit of common sense, they would realize this. Even if they did manage to convince people that Lee's teachings aren't aberrant, whose to say that would generate any particular interest in WL?

For LC leaders, I'm sure they perceive the writings of ex-members to be the biggest threat. Ever since the internet has been around, I can remember hearing warnings about negative material on the internet. It always made me wonder if this "vision of the age" we saw through the "ministry of the age" is really that compelling, how could members be "poisoned" so easily? It never made any sense to me, until I realized there was a whole different side to the story that I wasn't being told. As long as they were able to instill and reinforce an unfounded fear of the internet, they could control the flow of information. Once I began to think for myself, this tactic of theirs could do nothing to stop me. I also realized that they had by no means addressed LC concerns that they would be expected to address. Needless to say, they are in a bit of a precarious position, because the minute they fail to control the flow of information, the whole system will begin to crumble right before their eyes.
Great points. Personally I was an LC "lifer." I prayed fervantly to the Lord on many occasions that He would always keep me loving Him in the church, referring to the Recovery. Never was I a lukewarm, passive member. Obviously my Heavenly Father saw fit not to answer the last half of my prayer.

How in the world could someone like me get "poisoned?" I was convinced for decades that Satan the deceiver had come to those who had left before me, stealing their faith, same as Eve was dramatically deceived in the Garden. Never in a million years did I think that Lee and his minions had me hoodwinked about past events, aka "storms."

Lee never saw the internet coming. He never thought past coverups would come back to haunt him. He and Nee had completely controlled the flow of information for 70 years (1922-1992), and then little known Ozone Al Gore came along to "invent" the internet. Their cover was blown. It was just a matter of time.
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-2015, 06:49 PM   #10
Terry
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 3,334
Default Re: DCP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
How many ministries out there have an in-house legal staff ready to sue any and all critics of their favorite preacher?

I once saw a chart of all the lawsuits and threats of lawsuits that LSM & DCP have engaged in over the years. Just incredible. Then read I Corinthians 6.
Apart from LC/LSM, I had only heard of Scientology brought forth by Freedom.
The chronology of lawsuit threats and enacted lawsuits is quite lengthy.
1 Corinthians 6.....LSM supporters make the claim "appealing to Caesar" as a means to justify lawsuits. Once again taking out of context. Paul's appeal to Caesar was a matter of life or death. As a Roman citizen, Paul could appeal to Caesar.
__________________
"Even a neutral has a right to take account of facts, even a neutral cannot be asked to close his mind or close his conscience."- Franklin D. Roosevelt
Terry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2015, 07:02 PM   #11
Terry
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 3,334
Default Re: DCP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Freedom View Post
I finally had to admit to myself that if the LC wanted a better reputation, the first thing they could so would be to drop certain teachings and practices. Of course, I didn’t realize that this would never happen in the LC, but I did realized that the fact they were suing other Christians without so much as a retraction or any admission of guilt was completely ludicrous.
Thus the need for DCP. Not that they do any real defending as Defense and Confirmation Project Seems to imply. Other than justifying the Titus Chu quarantine, DCP hasn't done much of anything since. No refutingof Steve Isitt's writing. No rebuttal of Nigel Tomes' articles. Nothing but silence. Makes me wonder, what has DCP been doing the past 9-10 years? Having had 30+ employees, they must have been doing something with their time. How have they been faithful stewards of the ministry? Where is the accountability to the churches (from whom giving is solicited specifically to DCP). That I speak from experience of having heard it during announcements.
DCP exists because as Sherman Robertson told Steve Isitt over ten years ago, the recovery is not going to change for anyone. Because of that unwillingness to change from heretical teachings and abusive practices, LSM needs something like a DCP.
__________________
"Even a neutral has a right to take account of facts, even a neutral cannot be asked to close his mind or close his conscience."- Franklin D. Roosevelt
Terry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2015, 07:51 PM   #12
UntoHim
Grateful Servant
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,060
Default Re: Defense and Confirmation Project

The presumed mission statement (for anyone who doesn't know any better) of the Defense and Confirmation Project is as stated on their website Contending for the Faith - "in the defense and confirmation of the gospel".(Philippians 1:7) Of course, when push comes to shove, the brothers at DCP will usually admit that they exist for one reason, and only one reason - the defense and confirmation of the person and work of Witness Lee. (and for Watchman Nee, but he doesn't need nearly as much defense and confirmation, so little effort is put into that endeavor)

The real nuts and bolts of DCP are easily discerned and exposed by their actions. (aka "the proof is in the pudding") The actual Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, as clearly and strongly put forth in The Gospels (and scripture writing apostles) could be attacked and assaulted, and one would hardly hear a whimper out of DCP. But let anyone dare question a jot or tittle of the ministry of Witness Lee, or even any of the practices established by Lee, and all of the sudden they are up in arms big time.

-
__________________
Unto Him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen. (Ephesians 3:21)
UntoHim is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2015, 03:42 AM   #13
Ohio
Member
 
Ohio's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Greater Ohio
Posts: 12,397
Default Re: DCP

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
Thus the need for DCP. Not that they do any real defending as Defense and Confirmation Project Seems to imply. Other than justifying the Titus Chu quarantine, DCP hasn't done much of anything since. No refutingof Steve Isitt's writing. No rebuttal of Nigel Tomes' articles. Nothing but silence. Makes me wonder, what has DCP been doing the past 9-10 years? Having had 30+ employees, they must have been doing something with their time. How have they been faithful stewards of the ministry? Where is the accountability to the churches (from whom giving is solicited specifically to DCP).
Now those are novel ideas!
__________________
Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!.
Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point!
Ohio is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2015, 08:38 PM   #14
Freedom
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,637
Default Re: Defense and Confirmation Project

Quote:
Originally Posted by UntoHim View Post
The presumed mission statement (for anyone who doesn't know any better) of the Defense and Confirmation Project is as stated on their website Contending for the Faith - "in the defense and confirmation of the gospel".(Philippians 1:7) Of course, when push comes to shove, the brothers at DCP will usually admit that they exist for one reason, and only one reason - the defense and confirmation of the person and work of Witness Lee. (and for Watchman Nee, but he doesn't need nearly as much defense and confirmation, so little effort is put into that endeavor)

The real nuts and bolts of DCP are easily discerned and exposed by their actions. (aka "the proof is in the pudding") The actual Gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ, as clearly and strongly put forth in The Gospels (and scripture writing apostles) could be attacked and assaulted, and one would hardly hear a whimper out of DCP. But let anyone dare question a jot or tittle of the ministry of Witness Lee, or even any of the practices established by Lee, and all of the sudden they are up in arms big time.

-
I think that because LCers are so caught up in their defensive bunker mentality, they forget that the only kind of defense and confirmation that Christians need to concern themselves with is the Gospel itself. Of course, they believe that only their ministry contains the “full” gospel, so it’s easy for them to equate the defense of Lee/LSM as the defense of the gospel. Maybe there needs to be a new defense and confirmation project – that of dispelling the notion that only through LSM can you get the “full” gospel, or the implication that the basic message gospel is insufficient.

Any way you look at it, it is bizarre that any Christian group would concern themselves with trying to defend and confirm a man’s ministry posthumously. At a very basic level the reputation/legacy that a person leaves behind is his or her own. Why do they think they have the ability to change Lee’s legacy? Lee had every opportunity to leave behind something positive. Sadly, he chose to leave behind lots of “bones and feathers”. Whatever good he left behind is greatly eclipsed by the bad, so much so that his ministry is almost completely irrelevant to anyone outside the LC (this is despite BFA’s attempts to flood the U.S with RcV Bibles). By comparison, even Nee is appreciated somewhat outside the LC.
__________________
Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.
Freedom is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-2015, 12:31 PM   #15
Terry
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Renton, Washington
Posts: 3,334
Default Re: Defense and Confirmation Project

Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry View Post
If DCP is really in the mode of defense against those whose speaking is contrary to LSM interests, nothing is being done. The writings of Jane Anderson, Steve, Isitt, Nigel Tomes, and that of writers pre-dating DCP (John Ingalls, John So, etc) has gone on unabated.
Specifically with Steve Isitt, since DCP began in 2002 not a single attempt to refute Steve's writings. Some of which are the following:

http://www.amazon.com/What-Deputy-Au...keywords=isitt
http://www.amazon.com/Time-Turmoil-D...0_SR214%2C320_
http://www.amazon.com/Hiding-History...=stephen+isitt

If you're one meeting with the local churches, you might consider Steve's writings to be slanderous. You might ask DCP, why has nothing been done?
The answer could be DCP silently concede Steve's writings bearing merit even if it places beloved brothers in a bad light.
__________________
"Even a neutral has a right to take account of facts, even a neutral cannot be asked to close his mind or close his conscience."- Franklin D. Roosevelt
Terry is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 11:44 AM.


3.8.9