Vessels To Contain God?

Does Romans 9:23-24 teach that man is a vessel to contain God?

[UntoHim]

Actually Romans 9 is not about man becoming a vessel to contain God. The emphases is not on the vessels, it is on the potter, the maker of the vessels. The emphasis is on the wrath, mercy and ultimate sovereignty that God has over the vessels.

So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. (vr 16)

Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory (vrs 21-23)

Please take special note: "Has the potter no right" - "What if God" - "Which he has prepared". I believe the teachings of Nee/Lee place too much emphases on the vessels, and not the one who created, who formed and who sovereignly decides the function, and even the ultimate destiny, of the vessels. In short, Lee's teachings are man-centered, but the teaching of the apostle Paul in Romans 9 are God-centered.

There are other places in the New Testament that do teach about man ostensibly "containing" God, but they do not place the ultimate emphasis on man, but on God himself. "Christ in you the hope of glory" (Col 1:27) Do you not know that you are God’s temple and that God’s Spirit dwells in you? (1 Cor 3:16)
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[Sons to Glory!]

I agree with UntoHim that this section in Romans is more about the Potter's right over the clay, to shape the clay vessel as He sees fit. Of course, as pointed out, many other places talk about man being a receptacle for God's Spirit, and various terms are used to express this in scripture. For instance, Ephesians 2 talks about us being His temple, a dwelling place of God in Spirit. And the church being His body, etc. Fact is, we will be filled with something and can only express what we are filled with.

Here's a link to a verse list regarding man being a vessel: 100 Verses on Man as Vessel

So how about 2 Corinthians 4:7 does it not teach man being vessel to contain God?

Greetings from India!

[UntoHim]

I like you In the Shadow India! Please come and register at LocalChurchDiscussions@Gmail.Com I have already reserved the UserName "ShadowOfIndia" for you.

But we have this treasure in jars of clay, to show that the surpassing power belongs to God and not to us.

So how about 2nd Corinthians 4:7 Thanks my friend, it proves my point again! What is the emphasis in this verse? Is it "the jars of clay", or is the emphasis "this treasure" and "the surpassing power belongs to God"? Of course you know the answer, don't you In the Shadow India?

I'm reminded of the Local Church song:
"Earthen vessel I was made,
Christ in me the treasure laid.
His container I must be
As the content He in me"

Here is a young sister singing this song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2BCO0qss6k8

What a beautiful reality! Christ in me the treasure laid! Thankfully, God's people have been teaching, preaching and singing this wonderful reality for over 2,000 years now! Are you aware of this, dear In the Shadow India? As a matter of fact, I know for that there are quite a number of dear brothers and sisters in India hearing about and praising the Lord that Christ is in them as the treasure! Isn't this wonderful?!

[Nell]

Originally Posted by In the Shadow India

So how about 2 Corinthians 4:7 does it not teach man being vessel to contain God?

Greetings from India!

2 Cor. 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

Greetings, India—

Not every verse in the Bible is a “teaching”. The passages you refer to don’t prescribe a teaching regarding use of the word “vessels”. Rather, here, the word “vessels” is an analogy to describe his dwelling place in man.

As such, these verses illustrate the concepts of descriptive vs. prescriptive passages in the Bible.

I heard a funny example of prescriptive v. descriptive, when Paul told Timothy (I think Timothy) “when you come bring my cloak with you”. This isn’t a teaching about cloaks...it’s just Paul asking for a favor. There are many such verses in the Bible. UntoHim has given you an eloquent description of a beautiful reality of the potter and the clay.

Without more context, your questions about the “vessel” verses would seem to fall into the “descriptive” column.

Nell

[Sons to Glory!]

UntoHim & Nell: I get that the whole point of the vessel is the Treasure within (Christ in us). And that there is a danger in focusing too much on the vessel - it's real purpose is simply to contain the precious Ointment. Nonetheless, the Bible doesn't exclude talking about the vessel, and we should be very grateful and see clearly that He took our broken, filthy vessel and made it all new and clean in Him! We can still be very thankful for what He has done for us as vessels for His good pleasure and the Incredible Treasure it was meant to hold, without going off the mark and being all vessel-centered. Therefore, we should not be ignorant of who we have been made in Christ, right? I don't think that's what you-ins are saying here, but simply wanted to clarify.

(and some here would probably say this is something WN/WL did too much, i.e., focusing on and perhaps exalting the new vessel excessively. . .)

[UntoHim]

Well, In the Shadow of India asked a specific question and Nell and I have given him a specific answer. I think it's safe to assume that our new friend asked the question with the teachings of Witness Lee in view, and I don't think he really expected us to cover every aspect and theological implication in Romans 9.

I'll repeat: Witness Lee teachings concerning these verses are man-centered, whereas the apostle Paul's teachings are God-centered. This was one of the main, underlying errors in the teachings of Nee and Lee.
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[Sons to Glory!]

Okay, let's ask him about this: Guest "In the Shadow" - are you wanting to make a specific point . . . or can you give us some more detail as to what you exactly want to know or get from us?

I was reading a particular passage in Romans 9 where it has been quoted several times in gospel preaching. A year ago, I met this evangelical preacher shared to me the gospel. I pointed to him that man is a vessel to contain God. He explained to me that verse is not talking about being vessels to contain God. I can't remember his explanation from the passage.

[UntoHim]

Thank you In the Shadow of India for your thoughtful reply!

Have you been able to see the replies of Nell and UntoHim? I think if you carefully review our posts you will see that these verses are not talking about man being vessels to contain God. And they are certainly not talking about man being vessels to contain God as an essential item of the Gospel.

There are others here on our forum who hold a different view. I'm sure you will hear from them soon!
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[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Thank you In the Shadow of India for your thoughtful reply!

Have you been able to see the replies of Nell and UntoHim? I think if you carefully review our posts you will see that these verses are not talking about man being vessels to contain God. And they are certainly not talking about man being vessels to contain God as an essential item of the Gospel.

There are others here on our forum who hold a different view. I'm sure you will hear from them soon!
-

BTW - In case you thought of me when writing that - I don't hold that view. If you do think that, then I have not communicated well! (or did I also misunderstand your lost post?) Let me know, and I will attempt to communicate more clearly . . .

As a member of the Local church, I’ve been constantly told this statement “we were made vessels to contain God”. Recently I tried to study the subject, but I have not found many Scriptures to support this idea, especially when it comes to Genesis account of Gods creation. I’m struggling to make a final decision, but I’m leaning toward the fact that it was made up by Lee and Nee as part of misinterpretation of the Bible. Is that a reasonable conclusion?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

As a member of the Local church, I’ve been constantly told this statement “we were made vessels to contain God”. Recently I tried to study the subject, but I have not found many Scriptures to support this idea, especially when it comes to Genesis account of Gods creation. I’m struggling to make a final decision, but I’m leaning toward the fact that it was made up by Lee and Nee as part of misinterpretation of the Bible. Is that a reasonable conclusion?

Unregistered—-

What do you think about the previous posts in this thread? There seems to be more to it than your question suggests. This discussion was really good.

I’m going to repeat my post #6 below:

Not every verse in the Bible is a “teaching”. The passages you refer to don’t prescribe a teaching regarding use of the word “vessels”. Rather, here, the word “vessels” is an analogy to describe his dwelling place in man.

As such, these verses illustrate the concepts of descriptive vs. prescriptive passages in the Bible.

I heard a funny example of prescriptive v. descriptive, when Paul told Timothy (I think Timothy) “when you come bring my cloak with you”. This isn’t a teaching about cloaks...it’s just Paul asking for a favor. There are many such verses in the Bible. UntoHim has given you an eloquent description of a beautiful reality of the potter and the clay…

Many of Witness Lee’s “teachings” were descriptions turned into prescribed teachings. One example is “one church, one city”. The Bible referred to a few of the churches by their geographic location in the day. Lee turned this geographic description of the church, I.e. the church in Ephesus, into a doctrine or prescription that ALL churches MUST be so defined, or it wasn’t a true church.

BTW…Please register for forum membership! Send an Email Request To: Reg4LCD@Gmail.Com
Be Sure To Include Your Desired Username!

Nell

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

As a member of the Local church, I’ve been constantly told this statement “we were made vessels to contain God”. Recently I tried to study the subject, but I have not found many Scriptures to support this idea, especially when it comes to Genesis account of Gods creation. I’m struggling to make a final decision, but I’m leaning toward the fact that it was made up by Lee and Nee as part of misinterpretation of the Bible. Is that a reasonable conclusion?

Welcome to the forum, unregistered member of the local church!

Thanks for bringing this thread back to life; it is not one I had seen yet and it's a very interesting topic/question, and one that makes a lot of verses come to mind. I’m going to ask you to consider God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit (or Spirit of God) more distinctly than they are typically considered in the local church. Oftentimes in the ministry they get collapsed into basically being the same thing, when the Bible presents them distinctly the vast majority of the time.

So here are my thoughts (this is a long post, but point #8 is really the big one, if you want to skip the rest):

1. This thread started out with a reference to Romans 9. Most translations use the word "vessel", but the glaring problem is that it never specifies what the vessel contains. Verse 17 gets close in describing God's right to raise Pharaoh up to "show God's power in Pharaoh", but then verse 21 just speaks of the vessels' general use or end result. No mention of what this vessel contains. So these verses are not good support.

2. Then Colossians 1:27 was brought up:

Colossians 1:27
To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

This verse shows Christ is in us. Does this verse say “our vessel is a container for Christ?” or link anything to the concept of a vessel? Well, no. So this verse is a good one, but doesn’t quite say everything we are looking for. It also says that God chose to make known the mystery that Christ is in us. It doesn’t say “God is in us”, but that God revealed the mystery that His Son, Jesus Christ, is in us.

3. Then it gets more interesting. This verse was mentioned:

1 Corinthians 3:16
Do you not know that you yourselves are God’s temple, and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?

It says we are God’s temple, but then elaborates further to explain that it is the Spirit of God that dwells in us. And a temple is not the same thing as a vessel. It doesn’t say “we are a vessel to contain the Spirit of God”.

1 Corinthians 6:19 corroborates this.

1 Corinthians 6:19
Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

It doesn’t say our bodies are vessels that contain God, or even vessels that contain the Holy Spirit, but rather are temples (not vessels) OF the Holy Spirit, which we received FROM God.

4. I’ll stop here to interject a personal comment that you may or may not agree with. Other places when God Himself shows up on the scene, the typical response of those around is that of fear, trembling, or falling on their knees. God is described in big, powerful, overwhelming ways. I know there is a hymn that speaks of God being “so small”, but I’m afraid this just isn’t the biblical record. While He has tender care for us, and while we can approach the throne of grace, fear of the Lord is a very real thing described in Scripture, considering the immense power, might, majesty, holiness, etc of God. In light of this, it is almost laughable to think we can “contain” God like this. So my personal conjecture is that because of this, the way that God dwells in us is just as these verses describe – through His Holy Spirit, which the Bible describes as “being sent by God” or “from God”. It’s as if God dwelling in us must be through the intermediary of His Spirit rather than directly, otherwise, frankly, I think we would all be obliterated in a puff of dust.

5. That may make you think of Ephesians 2:19-22. However, it describes our being a dwelling place of God in the plural – the “you” in red there is a plural pronoun, and it talks about “the whole structure, being joined together”, which is all the believers, not each of us individually. And yet, even so, once again, we are a dwelling place of God IN or BY the Spirit.

Ephesians 2:19-22
19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,
21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord.
22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by [or "in"] the Spirit.

6. There is a reference to “treasure in jars of clay” in 2 Corinthians 4, but a look at the context shows, I think, that the treasure is plainly shown to be the gospel, the death of Jesus, and the knowledge of God’s glory displayed in Christ. This simply doesn’t say “we contain God Himself”.

2 Corinthians 4:2b-10
2b we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God.
3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.
4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
5 For what we preach is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake.
6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God’s glory displayed in the face of Christ.
7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us.
8 We are hard pressed on every side, but not crushed; perplexed, but not in despair;
9 persecuted, but not abandoned; struck down, but not destroyed.
10 We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body.

7. Ephesians 3 was also mentioned, which speaks of “being filled to the measure of all the fullness of God”. But verses 17-19 before that phrase explains that the purpose of being strengthened, of Christ dwelling in us, of being rooted in love, of grasping how wide/long/high/deep is the love of Christ, of knowing this knowledge-surpassing love IS SO THAT we can be “filled to the measure of all the fulness of God”. In light of that, it just doesn’t seem that what these verses are saying are “we are a container of God”, although some might disagree with me.

Ephesians 3:14-20
14 For this reason I kneel before the Father,
15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name.
16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being,
17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love,
18 may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ,
19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
20 Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us,

8. But I think the best thing is to read what the Bible actually DOES say specifically about what our vessels are for.

2 Timothy 2:20-21
Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for honorable use, some for dishonorable. Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Does it say our vessels are to contain God? Nope. It says our vessels are for honorable use, useful to the master, ready for every good work, created in Christ for good works.

Good works are generally looked down upon in the local church, but I’m afraid that is what the Bible says our vessels are to be used for. We are not vessels to contain, but vessels to be used for good works.

So, I think the thought that we are a “container” for God, or that God can be “contained”, as well as the dismissal of what the Bible says as the reason why we are a vessel, is one of the many ways the ministry contradicts the Bible. I am so encouraged that you are digging into the Bible to see what it says compared to the ministry.

There are probably other verses that I missed, but others can bring them up if they want.

Does any of this match your study of the subject?

Trapped

Originally Posted by Nell

Unregistered—-

What do you think about the previous posts in this thread? There seems to be more to it than your question suggests. This discussion was really good.

I’m going to repeat my post #6 below:

Not every verse in the Bible is a “teaching”. The passages you refer to don’t prescribe a teaching regarding use of the word “vessels”. Rather, here, the word “vessels” is an analogy to describe his dwelling place in man.

As such, these verses illustrate the concepts of descriptive vs. prescriptive passages in the Bible.

I heard a funny example of prescriptive v. descriptive, when Paul told Timothy (I think Timothy) “when you come bring my cloak with you”. This isn’t a teaching about cloaks...it’s just Paul asking for a favor. There are many such verses in the Bible. UntoHim has given you an eloquent description of a beautiful reality of the potter and the clay…

Many of Witness Lee’s “teachings” were descriptions turned into prescribed teachings. One example is “one church, one city”. The Bible referred to a few of the churches by their geographic location in the day. Lee turned this geographic description of the church, I.e. the church in Ephesus, into a doctrine or prescription that ALL churches MUST be so defined, or it wasn’t a true church.

BTW…Please register for forum membership! Send an Email Request To: Reg4LCD@Gmail.Com
Be Sure To Include Your Desired Username!

Nell

Hi Nell,

I did read a lot of the messages in this thread, that’s why I’m actually leaning towards the understanding that it’s not about containing or a vessel, but it’s about someone being used for Gods glory.

I might register as soon as I get a burner email to do so, since I want to keep this down low at this time. Thanks

To avoid confusion as I read the other posts, I’ll just post as Usefull user for a moment. Thank you.

God bless.

Originally Posted by Trapped

Welcome to the forum, unregistered member of the local church!

Thanks for bringing this thread back to life; it is not one I had seen yet and it's a very interesting topic/question, and one that makes a lot of verses come to mind. I’m going to ask you to consider God the Father, Jesus Christ the Son, and the Holy Spirit (or Spirit of God) more distinctly than they are typically considered in the local church. Oftentimes in the ministry they get collapsed into basically being the same thing, when the Bible presents them distinctly the vast majority of the time.

So here are my thoughts (this is a long post, but point #8 is really the big one, if you want to skip the rest):

1. This thread started out with a reference to Romans 9. Most translations use the word "vessel", but the glaring problem is that it never specifies what the vessel contains. Verse 17 gets close in describing God's right to raise Pharaoh up to "show God's power in Pharaoh", but then verse 21 just speaks of the vessels' general use or end result. No mention of what this vessel contains. So these verses are not good support.

2. Then Colossians 1:27 was brought up:

Colossians 1:27
To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

This verse shows Christ is in us. Does this verse say “our vessel is a container for Christ?” or link anything to the concept of a vessel? Well, no. So this verse is a good one, but doesn’t quite say everything we are looking for. It also says that God chose to make known the mystery that Christ is in us. It doesn’t say “God is in us”, but that God revealed the mystery that His Son, Jesus Christ, is in us.

3. Then it gets more interesting. This verse was mentioned:

1 Corinthians 3:16
Do you not know that you yourselves are God’s temple, and that God’s Spirit dwells in you?

It says we are God’s temple, but then elaborates further to explain that it is the Spirit of God that dwells in us. And a temple is not the same thing as a vessel. It doesn’t say “we are a vessel to contain the Spirit of God”.

1 Corinthians 6:19 corroborates this.

1 Corinthians 6:19
Do you not know that your bodies are temples of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own;

It doesn’t say our bodies are vessels that contain God, or even vessels that contain the Holy Spirit, but rather are temples (not vessels) OF the Holy Spirit, which we received FROM God.

4. I’ll stop here to interject a personal comment that you may or may not agree with. Other places when God Himself shows up on the scene, the typical response of those around is that of fear, trembling, or falling on their knees. God is described in big, powerful, overwhelming ways. I know there is a hymn that speaks of God being “so small”, but I’m afraid this just isn’t the biblical record. While He has tender care for us, and while we can approach the throne of grace, fear of the Lord is a very real thing described in Scripture, considering the immense power, might, majesty, holiness, etc of God. In light of this, it is almost laughable to think we can “contain” God like this. So my personal conjecture is that because of this, the way that God dwells in us is just as these verses describe – through His Holy Spirit, which the Bible describes as “being sent by God” or “from God”. It’s as if God dwelling in us must be through the intermediary of His Spirit rather than directly, otherwise, frankly, I think we would all be obliterated in a puff of dust.

5. That may make you think of Ephesians 2:19-22. However, it describes our being a dwelling place of God in the plural – the “you” in red there is a plural pronoun, and it talks about “the whole structure, being joined together”, which is all the believers, not each of us individually. And yet, even so, once again, we are a dwelling place of God IN or BY the Spirit.

Ephesians 2:19-22
19 So then you are no longer strangers and aliens, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God,
20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone,
21 in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord.
22 In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by [or "in"] the Spirit.

6. There is a reference to “treasure in jars of clay” in 2 Corinthians 4, but a look at the context shows, I think, that the treasure is plainly shown to be the gospel, the death of Jesus, and the knowledge of God’s glory displayed in Christ. This simply doesn’t say “we contain God Himself”.

2 Corinthians 4:2b-10
2b we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience in the sight of God.
3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing.
4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
5 For what we preach is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake.
6 For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,” made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of God’s glory displayed in the face of Christ.
7 But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us.
8 We are hard pressed on every side, but not crushed; perplexed, but not in despair;
9 persecuted, but not abandoned; struck down, but not destroyed.
10 We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body.

7. Ephesians 3 was also mentioned, which speaks of “being filled to the measure of all the fullness of God”. But verses 17-19 before that phrase explains that the purpose of being strengthened, of Christ dwelling in us, of being rooted in love, of grasping how wide/long/high/deep is the love of Christ, of knowing this knowledge-surpassing love IS SO THAT we can be “filled to the measure of all the fulness of God”. In light of that, it just doesn’t seem that what these verses are saying are “we are a container of God”, although some might disagree with me.

Ephesians 3:14-20
14 For this reason I kneel before the Father,
15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name.
16 I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you with power through his Spirit in your inner being,
17 so that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith. And I pray that you, being rooted and established in love,
18 may have power, together with all the Lord’s holy people, to grasp how wide and long and high and deep is the love of Christ,
19 and to know this love that surpasses knowledge—that you may be filled to the measure of all the fullness of God.
20 Now to him who is able to do immeasurably more than all we ask or imagine, according to his power that is at work within us,

8. But I think the best thing is to read what the Bible actually DOES say specifically about what our vessels are for.

2 Timothy 2:20-21
Now in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver but also of wood and clay, some for honorable use, some for dishonorable. Therefore, if anyone cleanses himself from what is dishonorable, he will be a vessel for honorable use, set apart as holy, useful to the master of the house, ready for every good work.

Ephesians 2:10
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Does it say our vessels are to contain God? Nope. It says our vessels are for honorable use, useful to the master, ready for every good work, created in Christ for good works.

Good works are generally looked down upon in the local church, but I’m afraid that is what the Bible says our vessels are to be used for. We are not vessels to contain, but vessels to be used for good works.

So, I think the thought that we are a “container” for God, or that God can be “contained”, as well as the dismissal of what the Bible says as the reason why we are a vessel, is one of the many ways the ministry contradicts the Bible. I am so encouraged that you are digging into the Bible to see what it says compared to the ministry.

There are probably other verses that I missed, but others can bring them up if they want.

Does any of this match your study of the subject?

Trapped

Hi Trapped,

Thank you for a long response, but it’s worth seeing what the Bible actually states on this topic.
I tend to agree with you on the fact that the Bible says it was about being used for good works and not for some force to magically make people some containers of God. The verse that speaks to the point about being the temple, actually makes a lot of sense, because temple was not the place that contained God, but was a place that God used for His purposes. Again, thanks for taking time to respond.

Hello again,

I find it very interesting how many times I’m finding that ministry just takes single verses out of the whole chapter and then takes another half verse from somewhere else, to use as a proof text of such and such teachings that they are trying to impress on others. (Just see every singe article on shepherding word for examples). Since I started doing more deeper study of the Bible in context of the whole chapter, it’s been fascinating how many things come up in question from what I’ve been told. I read this quote online not to long ago,

“A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text."

which is so true to me now that I am going on this journey, to see how many times this application is used, especially in HWMRs. It’s when the verses are truncated, or chapters of a whole dialogue or self explaining passages are pruned of its true meaning, then personal interpretation is inserted to change the context. It’s totally worth every hour spent to trace this phenomenon. It’s liberating, once you are able to drop the old concepts that have been imbedded in you.

BTW, I’m one of those people who still has a presence of mind to not be a total sheeple when it comes to holidays, so for those of you who are not chauvinistic to Local Church’s stand, Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays.

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by Usefull

Hello again,


“A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text."

Indeed.
Now, I would not spend time investigating Lee's interpretation. I have forsaken them and focused on the words of God.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Usefull

Hello again,

I find it very interesting how many times I’m finding that ministry just takes single verses out of the whole chapter and then takes another half verse from somewhere else, to use as a proof text of such and such teachings that they are trying to impress on others. (Just see every singe article on shepherding word for examples). Since I started doing more deeper study of the Bible in context of the whole chapter, it’s been fascinating how many things come up in question from what I’ve been told. I read this quote online not to long ago,

“A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text."

which is so true to me now that I am going on this journey, to see how many times this application is used, especially in HWMRs. It’s when the verses are truncated, or chapters of a whole dialogue or self explaining passages are pruned of its true meaning, then personal interpretation is inserted to change the context. It’s totally worth every hour spent to trace this phenomenon. It’s liberating, once you are able to drop the old concepts that have been imbedded in you.

BTW, I’m one of those people who still has a presence of mind to not be a total sheeple when it comes to holidays, so for those of you who are not chauvinistic to Local Church’s stand, Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays.

Hi Usefull,

As much as it is frustrating finding out that you've been told things (a lot of them, it turns out) that are different from what the Bible says, it is also an interesting experience to go through the discovery process you are describing.....kind of like mining for treasure. Digging through some dirt to find the "Oh! That's not what the Bible says there!" or the "Oh! THIS is what the Bible really means!" gold nuggets etc... I agree it's worth the time, although it really is surprising the sheer volume of errors you can uncover by simply doing a little basic fact-checking!

One other thing I noticed in the ministry is that they will do this:

Beginning of sentence that says something biblical, then end of sentence that says something the Bible doesn't say (followed by verse reference only supporting the first half of the sentence, but placed as if the entire sentence has biblical support).

So an example might be (this isn't an actual ministry quote; it's just an example):

The elders are overseers of the flock and shepherds of the church, and as God's deputy authorities should be submitted to regardless of right or wrong (Acts 20:28).

The first part that elders are overseers and shepherds of the church is what Acts 20:28 says, but "deputy authorities" or the "submitted to regardless of right or wrong" is nowhere to be found in that verse or anywhere else. But they place the verse reference at the end as if it applies to the entire statement.

They know how to place verse references in the middle of sentences...I've seen it. But that trick is what they do when they are trying to, well, you know, trick you.

The old concepts are enslaving and so burdensome, as well as flat out not what the Bible teaches! I'm very encouraged by what you are doing and am so happy to hear of the liberation you are experiencing.

Happy holidays,

Trapped

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Usefull

Hello again,

I find it very interesting how many times I’m finding that ministry just takes single verses out of the whole chapter and then takes another half verse from somewhere else, to use as a proof text of such and such teachings that they are trying to impress on others. (Just see every singe article on shepherding word for examples). Since I started doing more deeper study of the Bible in context of the whole chapter, it’s been fascinating how many things come up in question from what I’ve been told. I read this quote online not to long ago,

“A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text."

which is so true to me now that I am going on this journey, to see how many times this application is used, especially in HWMRs. It’s when the verses are truncated, or chapters of a whole dialogue or self explaining passages are pruned of its true meaning, then personal interpretation is inserted to change the context. It’s totally worth every hour spent to trace this phenomenon. It’s liberating, once you are able to drop the old concepts that have been imbedded in you.

BTW, I’m one of those people who still has a presence of mind to not be a total sheeple when it comes to holidays, so for those of you who are not chauvinistic to Local Church’s stand, Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays.

This would be categorized as hermeneutics in the Christian theological field. Check it out, and explore the ways that the Bible is interpreted

Originally Posted by Trapped

Hi Usefull,

As much as it is frustrating finding out that you've been told things (a lot of them, it turns out) that are different from what the Bible says, it is also an interesting experience to go through the discovery process you are describing.....kind of like mining for treasure. Digging through some dirt to find the "Oh! That's not what the Bible says there!" or the "Oh! THIS is what the Bible really means!" gold nuggets etc... I agree it's worth the time, although it really is surprising the sheer volume of errors you can uncover by simply doing a little basic fact-checking!

One other thing I noticed in the ministry is that they will do this:

Beginning of sentence that says something biblical, then end of sentence that says something the Bible doesn't say (followed by verse reference only supporting the first half of the sentence, but placed as if the entire sentence has biblical support).

So an example might be (this isn't an actual ministry quote; it's just an example):

The elders are overseers of the flock and shepherds of the church, and as God's deputy authorities should be submitted to regardless of right or wrong (Acts 20:28).

The first part that elders are overseers and shepherds of the church is what Acts 20:28 says, but "deputy authorities" or the "submitted to regardless of right or wrong" is nowhere to be found in that verse or anywhere else. But they place the verse reference at the end as if it applies to the entire statement.

They know how to place verse references in the middle of sentences...I've seen it. But that trick is what they do when they are trying to, well, you know, trick you.

The old concepts are enslaving and so burdensome, as well as flat out not what the Bible teaches! I'm very encouraged by what you are doing and am so happy to hear of the liberation you are experiencing.

Happy holidays,

Trapped

You know what Trapped, I love the actual process that you go through. I once was one of those people where just taking thing in at the face value, or whatever is put on you plate was good enough, but it’s no longer the case. I had this vision once a while back, it’s where you walk into a room and there is a table there: one side has a perfectly arranged plate, which includes a precisely stacked bag of Doritos, with the side of processed nachos cheese, but the other side had a perfectly placed uncooked 24oz ribeye steak with the side of asparagus and mashed potato. You have to pick one out, when you are really hungry. I would guess that most people would chose something that’s ready to eat and just fill their stomachs, but I said I’ll take the uncooked steak and put it on the grill. The process of getting it cooked is sometimes time consuming, but when you bite in, it is worth the effort. It’s fulfilling, it’s better for your being, and the calories are actually good for your health. It’s been a great journey for me, and it’s totally worth the effort and time to cook my own dinner, if you know what I mean. God is asking people to trust in Him alone, and if it requires a bit of our effort to get the benefits of what He is offering. It is a beautiful and fulfilling experience, that is totally absent from the things that I have receiving from the Local church. I hate to say it, but thank God for the truth that’s only found in His Word, through the work of the Holy Spirit, and not in ministry where a lot of people place their hope.

Originally Posted by Usefull

“A text without a context is a pretext for a proof text."

As the saying goes, “the beauty is skin deep, but the ugliness runs through the bones”, so is in this case. For those who value outside, surface based, approach to Biblical study without consideration for the whole context or even references, will end up creating totally bizarre conclusions and assumptions like the local church. I highly doubt that people who are participating in the winter training this week, look beyond the transcripts and LSM issued, Witnesses Lee written foot notes and outlines. As soon as one starts to look beyond the “skin”, the ugliness that one will encounter in the written ministry is rotten to the bone.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

As the saying goes, “the beauty is skin deep, but the ugliness runs through the bones”, so is in this case. For those who value outside, surface based, approach to Biblical study without consideration for the whole context or even references, will end up creating totally bizarre conclusions and assumptions like the local church. I highly doubt that people who are participating in the winter training this week, look beyond the transcripts and LSM issued, Witnesses Lee written foot notes and outlines. As soon as one starts to look beyond the “skin”, the ugliness that one will encounter in the written ministry is rotten to the bone.

Unregistered,

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[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Usefull

You know what Trapped, I love the actual process that you go through. I once was one of those people where just taking thing in at the face value, or whatever is put on you plate was good enough, but it’s no longer the case. I had this vision once a while back, it’s where you walk into a room and there is a table there: one side has a perfectly arranged plate, which includes a precisely stacked bag of Doritos, with the side of processed nachos cheese, but the other side had a perfectly placed uncooked 24oz ribeye steak with the side of asparagus and mashed potato. You have to pick one out, when you are really hungry. I would guess that most people would chose something that’s ready to eat and just fill their stomachs, but I said I’ll take the uncooked steak and put it on the grill. The process of getting it cooked is sometimes time consuming, but when you bite in, it is worth the effort. It’s fulfilling, it’s better for your being, and the calories are actually good for your health. It’s been a great journey for me, and it’s totally worth the effort and time to cook my own dinner, if you know what I mean. God is asking people to trust in Him alone, and if it requires a bit of our effort to get the benefits of what He is offering. It is a beautiful and fulfilling experience, that is totally absent from the things that I have receiving from the Local church. I hate to say it, but thank God for the truth that’s only found in His Word, through the work of the Holy Spirit, and not in ministry where a lot of people place their hope.

Usefull,

I enjoy the process too, although it's not easy! And that's a great analogy you describe in that vision. The ministry is packaged as "I've done all the work for you, now you just have to sit back, and take it in, and enjoy" - much like a bag of Doritos or other processed food. But if you want good constitution, good health, and first-hand knowledge of what is in the Bible - you've got to handle and cook the good food yourself!

The humans in that Pixar movie Wall-E come to mind - where all they have to do is just "receive". Not a good picture!

Trapped

I am amazed at how those who hate WL and his teachings spend so much time mentally explaining away all kinds of concepts, in the end lost, with no experience of salvation. Its a good thing that being saved does not depend on correctly knowing each Bible doctrine, or many in degraded Christianity would not be saved...I have learned so much in 40 years after coming into the church life in West Hartford, Connecticut 40 years ago, and I have I have so many self filled Christians come and go...as for me, I am home in the church where I learned about salvation, growing in life, and being transformed which was verses my religious catholic background that left me unsaved and empty.

[OBW]

re: Trapped, Post #15.

I think you are onto something in these verses.

Having said that, I find that in some sense we do contain Christ if he is "in us." But even that is not said with the intent of making us carriers or vessels. Yet, on the other hand, a vessel is a decent metaphor for an aspect of our connection with God/Christ. We are not merely observers or followers, but we also are indwelt. It is, in a manner, true. But it is not the end-all picture. Indwelt is much more than something filling a vessel. More like something that becomes connected. You put oil in a lamp and you burn it to get light. But the oil and the lamp are not "one" in any sense. When all the oil is burned, there is just a lamp.

Using one of Lee's favorite notions of "going back to the beginning," I think that one of the most important terms used concerning mankind was that of being the image of, and exercising the authority granted by, God. Clay pots don't bear images (well, not like we are talking about), and they don't exercise any authority. And yet the view of man as a vessel is not without merit.

Maybe it is just another example of majoring on the minors. Surely we do contain Christ. But that is sort of a fact underpinning what we are really about. Sort of like Paul saying all that spiritual stuff to the Galatians and others. It wasn't so they would have conferences and ongoing studies of "I am crucified with Christ," but that they would live as if it is true and deal with the problems Paul was writing to them about, whether that was their adding the OT ritual laws to the gospel or looking down on certain ones in the assembly, or . . . . You get the picture.

There is a lot of righteousness required, and no artificial righteousness wanted. Sometimes you need to hear how that has been dealt with by Christ in a way that leads to us living it. Don't just teach it, sing about it, pray-read it, etc. Do it!

Surely we need to have what it takes. But Peter said we had it. So it is time to stop majoring on what is in us and instead major on bearing the image if the one that is in us.

Originally Posted by Trapped

Usefull,

I enjoy the process too, although it's not easy! And that's a great analogy you describe in that vision. The ministry is packaged as "I've done all the work for you, now you just have to sit back, and take it in, and enjoy" - much like a bag of Doritos or other processed food. But if you want good constitution, good health, and first-hand knowledge of what is in the Bible - you've got to handle and cook the good food yourself!

The humans in that Pixar movie Wall-E come to mind - where all they have to do is just "receive". Not a good picture!

Trapped

I think that after examining more and praying about clarity on this issue, I came to the conclusion that the main reason why LC is in the business of “vessels” and “containment”, is because if I look at the foundational principle of the local church, that says “men are becoming gods or are gods”, you have to have a method or a way to administer this process. When they speak to the idea that “you have to open yourself as a vessel to receive this “god essence into you, or Christ” it’s becomes no longer Biblical definition of “….. that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”, but makes it about “…… whosoever makes himself open, allows god to gain ground, destroys his humanity, them maybe if you did all that you will have eternal life”.

I have a hard time finding scriptures to present this kind of gospel to anyone, which is one of the many reasons this question has bothered me for many years. The believers life is not about some vessels sitting in trainings to get filled with whatever, gaining ground of sorts, but it’s about living a life that actually displays those characteristics through the knowledge of God and of Jesus Christ, as Peter wrote in 2 Peter 1:

2*Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,
3*According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4*Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
5*And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;[
6*And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7*And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8*For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ..

I love this passage, and it speaks to our true Christian life, and what it’s all about. Sitting on the couch reading ministry, to get Christ into you is not on the list.


Thank you all for the help.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I am amazed at how those who hate WL and his teachings spend so much time mentally explaining away all kinds of concepts, in the end lost, with no experience of salvation.

Sometimes people mistake “disagreements” for “hate”. Overall, the mistake would be for a Christian to presume to know the hearts of men and judge them, as we are commanded not to do (sin), because of what we think we know about their immortal soul.

Its a good thing that being saved does not depend on correctly knowing each Bible doctrine, or many in degraded christianity would not be saved.

It’s a good thing that salvation doesn’t require “correctly” knowing mens’ interpretations of the Bible which they put forth as inerrant Bible doctrine, or none might be saved.

I have learned so much in 4o years after coming into the church life in West Hartford, Connecticut 4o years ago, and I have I have so many self filled Christians come and go...as for me, I am home in the church where I learned about salvation, growing in life, and being transformed which was verses my religious catholic background that left me unsaved and empty.

Me too. I’ve learned so much in the 20 years since I left the Local Church of Witness Lee (whom I DO NOT hate). I don’t know what a self filled Christian is, but I do know that Jesus said “I will build MY church” and we would be better off to get out of His way and let him be about His work.

I guess a self filled Christian might be ANYONE who thinks they have all the answers. I learned to follow the Lamb wherever He goes. I learned to obey Him. I learned to talk to Him about everything. I learned that His yoke is easy and His burden is light. I learned what Paul meant when he said “that I may know Him…”.

I could go on, but I’ll end with something the Lord showed me about the words “degraded Christianity”.
Matthew 7:1-3
7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Something to think about….Every time you judge Christianity as “degraded”, you heap this same judgement upon yourself and your church—-in the same measure. Hence, your church becomes degraded because of your own judgement of others.

You’re welcome to join us and request forum membership. Most of us are pretty blunt in describing our time in your church life. We’ve been judged before. You may not like to hear the truth of what happened to us, or our discussion of your church. So be it. Others may have more to say.

Thanks for stopping by,
Nell
Admin/Moderator

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I am amazed at how those who hate WL and his teachings spend so much time mentally explaining away all kinds of concepts, in the end lost, with no experience of salvation. Its a good thing that being saved does not depend on correctly knowing each Bible doctrine, or many in degraded Christianity would not be saved...I have learned so much in 40 years after coming into the church life in West Hartford, Connecticut 40 years ago, and I have I have so many self filled Christians come and go...as for me, I am home in the church where I learned about salvation, growing in life, and being transformed which was verses my religious catholic background that left me unsaved and empty.

Unregistered,

Welcome to the forum! Please stick around to talk.

Your first sentence speaks of people who hate Witness Lee and who therefore end with no experience of salvation. A plain reading of your words would indicate you are saying that a person's salvation is linked to how they feel about Witness Lee. Surely you could not mean this. Please clarify what you mean by this, otherwise you have just made the local church look VERY bad.

Can you explain what growing in life means? I am not aware of the Bible speaking of a believer having various levels of life. It says if you have the Son, you have the life, and if you do not have the Son of God, then you do not have the life. To my knowledge, the Bible doesn't teach a "growth in life". It teaches being transformed, as you mentioned, as well as being conformed and sanctified, etc., but not some kind of increase or decrease of "life". If you could explain this with Biblical support (and John 3:30 doesn't apply here - that is John speaking of his ministry decreasing because the One he'd been testifying about had arrived; it doesn't speak of a believer's life levels), I'd appreciate it!

Thanks,

Trapped

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I am home in the church where I learned about salvation,

Kindly tell me what "salvation" you learned about in the church.
I am all ears to it.

Originally Posted by Unregistered

I am amazed at how those who hate WL and his teachings spend so much time mentally explaining away all kinds of concepts, in the end lost, with no experience of salvation. Its a good thing that being saved does not depend on correctly knowing each Bible doctrine, or many in degraded Christianity would not be saved...I have learned so much in 40 years after coming into the church life in West Hartford, Connecticut 40 years ago, and I have I have so many self filled Christians come and go...as for me, I am home in the church where I learned about salvation, growing in life, and being transformed which was verses my religious catholic background that left me unsaved and empty.

I am amazed at how those who defend and worship Witness Lee and his teachings spend so much time getting away from their God given minds, following away all kinds of unbiblical concepts, in the end get lost, with nothing to show for the wasted years. Its a good thing that being saved does not depend on Witnesses Lees interpretations of the Bible, because many of us who have been exposed to the Local church would not have ever known the true Living God, his unconditional love and His grace on daily basis. There are many self deceived “Christians” in the Local church..as for me, I am grateful that after so many years of of experiencing nothing but death and destruction the ministry brings, I can now follow the Jesus Christ found on the pages of scriptures, who has already accomplished everything for my salvation!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Can you explain what growing in life means? I am not aware of the Bible speaking of a believer having various levels of life. It says if you have the Son, you have the life, and if you do not have the Son of God, then you do not have the life. To my knowledge, the Bible doesn't teach a "growth in life".

I John Chapter 2? Hebrews 5.14 and 6.1?

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

Matthew 7:1-3
7 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Something to think about….Every time you judge Christianity as “degraded”, you heap this same judgement upon yourself and your church—-in the same measure. Hence, your church becomes degraded because of your own judgement of others.

Yes, Nell, that is something I have thought about.

Every sinful degradation and corruption WL condemned Christianity for, I later learned WL and his own family had committed. “For with what judgment WL had judged, he also was judged..”

You would think that someone at LSM would have learned this lesson by now. But no, because pride has blinded them.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I John Chapter 2? Hebrews 5.14 and 6.1?

I don't see any description of "levels of life" in those verses. I'm speaking not just "maturing in our human life", but of the local church way of a believer saying "I need more life!", indicating that you can somehow have life but also gain more of it.

Typically this concept of "growth in life" doesn't mean maturing in the way most non-LC people understand maturing. The local church means "life" as something you keep grasping at, keep collecting more of, etc. They've made "life" into a substance that you can gain more of, or even lose some of, depending on how they feel, etc..... Whereas the Bible just says if you are saved, you have it, and if you are not saved, you don't have it. So rather than saints in the local church being able to be at rest because they have the Son and therefore they have the life, they are often in a state of unrest as they lament "I'm so short in life", or "I just need more life".

If some believer feels their "life" level is lacking, biblically that is actually a doubt of salvation!

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I don't see any description of "levels of life" in those verses. I'm speaking not just "maturing in our human life", but of the local church way of a believer saying "I need more life!", indicating that you can somehow have life but also gain more of it.

Typically this concept of "growth in life" doesn't mean maturing in the way most non-LC people understand maturing. The local church means "life" as something you keep grasping at, keep collecting more of, etc. They've made "life" into a substance that you can gain more of, or even lose some of, depending on how they feel, etc..... Whereas the Bible just says if you are saved, you have it, and if you are not saved, you don't have it. So rather than saints in the local church being able to be at rest because they have the Son and therefore they have the life, they are often in a state of unrest as they lament "I'm so short in life", or "I just need more life".

If some believer feels their "life" level is lacking, biblically that is actually a doubt of salvation!

You initially commented about not seeing “growth of life” in the Bible, so I addressed that.

I agree that LC jargon about “life” is strange and contrary to the vernacular of most Christians. They like it that way, wrongly thinking that some “new language” makes them a “better Christian.” Most believers, however, would instead say that they need “more faith” during their trials or “more grace.”

Sadly, WL and the Blendeds go out of their way to draw distinctions between their members and the Body of Christ at large. Pride will do that to you.

Growth in life verses can be seen in Col. 2:19-it states that the Body(of Christ, which is the church), grows with the growth of God.
Eph. 4:15-15 refer to our growth into Him, in v. 16 it mentions the growth of the Body.
Eph. 3:17 mentions Christ growing in our hearts, settling down is the thought here. Doesn't it make sense that our growth in life is the real transformation that you talk about?
John refers to the believers as children, sons, and some as fathers. There is a matter of growth in life in the believers. It is an experience, a fact, not a mere doctrine. But these verses should help bring you some insight into the growth in life of the believers.

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[Trapped]

Hi Unregistered,

Thanks for these verses. Not sure if you are the same unregistered as before?

There is no doubt that we as believers are supposed to grow and mature, and "grow up into Him", but I don't see that the Bible ever calls this "growth in life" or "growing in life". If you google that phrase, the majority of the results are specifically local church ministry related sites. None of the verses above reference "life".

Unless I and many others have vastly misunderstood what was spoken in the local church, when saints say "grow in life", they are not talking about their human life. They are not saying like "I've done a lot of growing in my life", but are saying more like "grow in the divine life", or, as I noted in a previous post "gaining more life".

Another way to put it would be to say "growth in life" in the local church does not mean WE have grown; rather it means that "life" has grown. Indeed, many a saint has said "I need more life" or "I don't have enough life" or "I want to gain more life!"

But that's my issue. The Bible doesn't speak of life this way. After our initial salvation, we don't get "more of life" as believers. It isn't something we gain more of, or something we lose some of. If you have the Son, you have the life. That's it. If you have Him, you have it. If you lament a lack of life, then you are doubting your salvation. If you want more life.......well, how can you want more life? If you have the Son, you HAVE the life! And John 10:10 says He came so we would have it in abundance! So why would you want more life....are you saying Son isn't enough? It doesn't make sense to me. It sounds too much at that point like "life" means something else that the Bible doesn't mean.

Not sure if that helps clarify my point or not?

Trapped