One Publication

UntoHim · 05-16-2008, 11:41 AM

As Posted At:
http://www.lsm.org/onepublication/

PUBLICATION WORK
IN THE LORD’S RECOVERY

Through Brother Lee’s fellowship over the years, we have long realized that there should be one publication among us. The one publication is not only a testimony of our oneness in the Body but also a safeguard for the unique ministry in the Lord’s recovery. Without one publication, there is no way to preserve the integrity of the Lord’s ministry among us, which is crucial to the practical oneness among the local churches. Brother Lee gave this word of testimony on this crucial matter in the Lord’s recovery:

When we were on mainland China, only Brother Nee had a publication, and the Gospel Room belonged solely and uniquely to him. He asked me to help in the publication work. I did write some books, among which were a book on the genealogy of Christ, a translation of part of Pember’s Earth’s Earliest Ages, and some books on the kingdom of the heavens. I never published anything by myself. I always mailed my manuscript to the Gospel Room, which was under Brother Nee and his helper. It was up to their discernment whether my manuscript should be published or not. I liked to have my writings checked as to whether there might be some inaccuracy in the truth. It is not a small matter to write a book that expounds the kingdom of the heavens. I liked my material to pass through their checking. This helped and protected me. Brother Yu, the eye specialist, translated some of the mystical books, but he did not publish anything. We only had one publication. Everything was published through Brother Nee’s Gospel Room because the publication is really the trumpeting. The sounding of our trumpet is not just in the verbal message but more in the publication. (Elders’ Training, Book 8: The Life-pulse of the Lord’s Present Move, pp. 161-162. See the larger context of this quotation in the attached ministry portions.)

According to the practice established by Brother Nee in China, the one publication has always been trumpeted by one practical publication endeavor—in Brother Nee’s day by his Gospel Room, during Brother Lee’s years after he left mainland China by Taiwan Gospel Book Room, and during his years in the United States by Living Stream Ministry. Today we must be diligent to continue this practice of the trumpeting in the one publication in a practical way through the publication service of Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room. Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room publish both the past ministry that was delivered to us by Brother Nee and Brother Lee and the ongoing, up-to-date speaking that comes out of the fellowship of the blended co-workers and is based on the ministry materials of Brother Lee and Brother Nee. These are the materials that have been used regularly in the church life in the Lord’s recovery, and these constitute the one publication among us today.

When Brother Lee was among us, he took the lead in both the ministry and the publication work. As he released the Lord’s ministry to the churches, he directed Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room to publish that ministry throughout the churches so that the saints everywhere could be kept in the up-to-date fellowship of the one ministry. Because the ministry was released originally in either English or Chinese, he formed Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room as publication offices that would carry out the practical service of publishing the ministry for the churches. Today, by the Lord’s mercy, the ministry continues. Now it is carried out by fellow slaves who serve in a blended way according to Brother Lee’s realization and fellowship shortly before he went to be with the Lord. He called this “the Lord’s sovereign provision for His Body, and the up-to-date way to fulfill His ministry” (A Letter of Fellowship with Thanks, March 24, 1997). It is important to note that Brother Lee spoke directly about the continuation of the ministry among us. He felt that after his departure the ministry should be carried out by a group of co-workers who are blended, just as his own service in the ministry was under his coordination with the co-workers. Further, the need to publish the ongoing ministry still exists, and to this end Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room, a blended service overseen by a group of blended brothers who serve in coordination with the blended co-workers, continue to publish the Lord’s speaking among us in all the seven annual “feasts” and the weekly ministry meetings. In a meeting with the brothers to whom he committed the responsibility for Living Stream Ministry, Brother Lee said, “My burden is for the recovery based on the interpretation of Brother Nee and me. I am the continuation of Brother Nee; I would like to have a continuation of me, and this needs a corporation...The Living Stream corporation will continue this ministry” (from unpublished notes of a meeting of Living Stream, July 12, 1996). He placed the direction of this corporation for the continuation and publication of the ministry in the hands of a group of blended brothers, who labor to fulfill this charge before the Lord.

What Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room do, as set forth in the Living Stream’s Articles of Incorporation, is “to promote the enlightenment and revelation regarding the Bible as interpreted by the teachings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee.” It was Brother Lee’s express wish that Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room would be the sole publishers of his and Brother Nee’s ministry. According to this wish and arrangement, Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room should be responsible for the publication of the ministry materials of these two brothers, and any use of Brother Lee’s materials or of The Collected Works of Watchman Nee should be done in coordination with Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room, and only with their express permission, according to their guidelines, and in proper fellowship with them. This includes the translation of these materials into any language as well as any republication in any form or through any medium. Further, Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room also publish the ongoing ministry in the Lord’s recovery as the extension of the ministry of these two brothers. The ongoing ministry is carried out according to the fellowship of blended co-workers and is based on outlines compiled from Brother Lee’s and Brother Nee’s ministry materials. As has been apparent to all the saints everywhere, this labor produces the same ministry with the same taste as has been enjoyed in all the churches since Brother Nee’s time. The up-to-date speaking among us is published primarily in the outlines of the messages for the seven “feasts,” The Holy Word for Morning Revival, and The Ministry magazine by Living Stream Ministry and in corresponding publications by Taiwan Gospel Book Room. In addition, Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room publish works that support the Lord’s ministry. There are a number of publications which Brother Lee initiated that fall into this category, most notably the journal Affirmation & Critique, which presents the truths of the Lord’s recovery to an academically-trained audience as we have received them from Brother Lee. As much as possible, Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room avoid venturing into other kinds of publications, but according to Brother Lee’s own example, occasionally there may be publications of these other kinds which Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room feel to publish either under their own names or under special imprints that serve particular publication needs. For example, Living Stream Books (as opposed to Living Stream Ministry) publishes God’s Plan of Redemption by Mary E. McDonough, and A&C Press publishes a translation from French of a scholarly study on deification in the early church.

At times there may be writings among us that could be considered for publication as part of the one publication among us. As Brother Lee points out in the quote from Elders’ Training, Book above, these proposals should be “checked as to whether there might be some inaccuracy in the truth.” Discernment must always be exercised when expressing matters related to the divine truth, the divine life, and the gospel. The exercise of this sort of discernment not only protects the teaching among us and the spiritual supply to the saints; it also helps and protects those who endeavor to write. Hence, it is proper that those who endeavor to write in this way bring their work to those who take the lead in the ministry and those who take the lead in the publication work, and those who take the lead should exercise the discernment as to whether or not such proposals should be published as part of the one publication. This was the practice when Brother Nee took the lead in the ministry and in the publication work in China, and it was our practice when Brother Lee took the lead in the ministry and in the publication work among us. It should be our continued practice today. Thus, those who wish to write in this way should bring their proposals to the blended co-workers as well as to Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room and have their proposals checked to see whether they should be published or not. In every way, this practice of passing everything that we publish through a discerning check is best for all of us and best for the sounding of the one trumpet in the Lord’s recovery today.

We all must realize that the one publication in the Lord’s recovery is quite a serious matter. Anyone who participates in it must genuinely have the portion from the Lord to do so, and this portion should be easily recognizable to the churches and affirmed by those who take the lead in the ministry and those who take the lead in the publication work. No one can take up this portion in the Lord’s recovery on his own. While we all have a basic right to publish, in the Lord’s recovery we are governed by the higher vision of serving under the cross in a blended way in the Body, especially when it affects the churches and the dear saints everywhere. Since Brother Nee’s day we in the Lord’s recovery have been “restricted in one publication” (Elders’ Training, p. 161), and this restriction has resulted in one testimony among us. For decades we all have been nurtured and richly supplied by the one publication. The benefits of being restricted in one publication can hardly be denied.

But being restricted in the one publication does not mean, and has never meant, that individual churches are not free to produce and distribute materials for their local needs. We have always had publications like this among us, and there have generally been no problems related to these. Songbooks, local tracts, church meeting outlines, testimonies, etc., have long been produced among us without controversy. These are actually not part of the one publication among us in that they do not involve all the churches. These are publications that address local needs. Problems can be caused, however, when these local and non-permanent publications gain larger geographical status. Further, it is particularly problematic when new technologies, such as the Internet, are used to distribute these local publications. The elders should take special care to assure that what is produced for their local churches remains a local matter. Otherwise, damage may result. Although technologies now exist that permit the easy dissemination of material, we should not use these technologies at the risk of causing confusion among the saints and of damaging the one accord among the churches. The elders and saints everywhere should exercise the same caution that Brother Lee spoke of when he testified concerning the one publication in mainland China: all the saints and all the churches everywhere should similarly be restricted in one publication in the Lord’s recovery.

Technology today allows almost any individual to publish whatever he or she desires, and it should not be the intention of the responsible ones in the Lord’s recovery to suppress the rights of individuals to express themselves (unless, of course, such expressions are sinful, heretical, or divisive). Some saints have a desire to write church histories, to produce children’s materials, to record music, and even to give and publish messages. Without much effort these can be reproduced in a variety of media and distributed widely, especially on the Internet and on CDs and DVDs. But the fact that these publications can be produced and distributed should not give them any more credence among the churches than anything else that can be published today, secular or religious. These are simply other publications that our brothers and sisters may or may not be interested in. They are not part of the one publication in the Lord’s recovery, and they are not necessarily beneficial to the spiritual good of the saints among us. The churches, through the elders, should be educated to understand this, and the saints and the churches need to discern the value of these publications for themselves. As shepherds of the flock of God (1 Pet. 5:2), the elders everywhere should have a proper care for the churches with regard to publications, and they should guard the flock from things that could cause damage (Acts 20:28-29). As long as the churches do not become platforms for the dissemination of these publications, these publications should not become matters of issue among us.

Finally, all the churches and saints everywhere must understand that the matter of one publication is not a matter of the common faith but something related to the one ministry in the Lord’s recovery. The ministry is the sounding of the trumpet among us in the Lord’s recovery, and there should be no uncertain sounding of this trumpet, as Brother Lee has mentioned on a number of occasions. However, the one publication should not become the basis of our accepting or rejecting any persons in the communion of faith or in the fellowship of the churches; it should not be insisted on as an item of the faith. If any are not inclined to be restricted in one publication, these ones are still our brothers; they are still in the genuine local churches. We would like to conclude with these words from our Brother Lee and wish to recommend that the full context of his words be read from Elders’ Training, Book 7: One Accord for the Lord’s Move, pp. 74-75:

Whether or not a certain church takes the ministry does not decide whether that church is a genuine local church. The title of this message does not say “no uncertain sounding of the trumpet in the Lord’s recovery” but “in the Lord’s ministry.” I am not talking about something in the Lord’s recovery, but I am talking about the ministry...

I have to be faithful to the Lord, faithful to so many of you who have been very much affected by this ministry, and faithful to myself. For this reason, this ministry cannot allow anyone to pretend to be in it and yet still say something different. This does not mean that I ask you to stay away from your local church or that your local church is no longer a local church. What I am fellowshipping about is the impact of the ministry for the fighting of the Lord’s interest in His recovery.

The blended co-workers in the Lord’s recovery
June 30, 2005

Ministry Portions

BEING RESTRICTED IN ONE PUBLICATION

One thing that has caused the Lord’s recovery trouble is the fact that we have different publications. If we mean business for the Lord’s recovery, we must avoid any kind of involvement in problems. When we were on mainland China, only Brother Nee had a publication, and the Gospel Room belonged solely and uniquely to him. He asked me to help in the publication work. I did write some books, among which were a book on the genealogy of Christ, a translation of part of Pember’s Earth’s Earliest Ages, and some books on the kingdom of the heavens. I never published anything by myself. I always mailed my manuscript to the Gospel Room, which was under Brother Nee and his helper. It was up to their discernment whether my manuscript should be published or not. I liked to have my writings checked as to whether there might be some inaccuracy in the truth. It is not a small matter to write a book that expounds the kingdom of the heavens. I liked my material to pass through their checking. This helped and protected me. Brother Yu, the eye specialist, translated some of the mystical books, but he did not publish anything. We only had one publication. Everything was published through Brother Nee’s Gospel Room because the publication is really the trumpeting. The sounding of our trumpet is not just in the verbal message but more in the publication.

I hate to see that some of the brothers would try to publish something by copying my points mixed with their “spices” and their “color.” Why do they need to put out some points from my writings in this way? Brother Nee taught us concerning the kingdom of the heavens. I received the basic knowledge from his teaching, but he never expounded on it very much; he simply gave a sketch. It was I who from 1936 began to expound upon the sketch given to me by Brother Nee. After I published my exposition, Brother Nee admired it and told me personally that it was very good.

I hope that some of you brothers would do much development and expounding of all the messages I give. Do not merely speak some points, adding your own “color” and “spices.” This changes the taste. It damages my messages. You must receive the ability to expound all these things. I am not narrow. I would like to see that all of you will be great servants used by God. How wonderful that would be. But I do not like to see that some would merely repeat what I have said, pretending that it is their work with their spices and color.

It bothers me that some brothers among us still put out publications. According to my truthful observation there is no new light or life supply there. They may contain some biblical doctrines, but any point of life or light has been adopted from the publications of Living Stream Ministry. There is nearly no item of life or light that has not been covered by our publications. Based upon this fact, what is the need for these brothers to put out their publications? Because all the publications are mine, it is hard for me to speak such a word. But I am forced to tell the truth. By putting out your own publication, you waste your time and money. You waste the money given by the saints, and you waste their time in reading what you publish. Where is the food, the life supply, and the real enlightenment in the other publications among us? Be assured that there is definitely at least one major revelation in every Living Stream Ministry publication.

I was burdened to publish the Life-study Messages to stress the matter of life because this matter has been neglected, missed, and even lost to the uttermost in today’s Christianity. In most of the commentaries and expositions there is not much of life. Even the term Life-study is a new term. I have used this term for thirty-two years. In 1954 and 1955 I finished a Life-study on the entire Bible, from Genesis to Revelation in Taipei.

This does not mean that I am so capable or so knowledgeable. It all depends upon whether or not our sovereign Lord has given you this portion. Even though I wrote some books in mainland China, I never dared to publish anything by myself. I do not like to have another sounding. Our sounding must be one, so we must be restricted in one publication. My intention in calling a writers’ conference was to encourage you to write something, but not in the way that came out. This fellowship may preserve and protect us from doing things lawlessly.

If some localities would have gone the proper way of the recovery, using all the materials of the ministry, their number would have increased greatly. Some are wasting their time by writing and publishing their own material. This is not their portion. I would like to see that many brothers had this portion with the riches of truth. This would be marvelous and wonderful, but this is our problem today. I advise all of you to take care of this matter. You have to swallow up the dissension. Do not let dissension eat you up.

I hope this fellowship will render some help to all the churches. Take these principles, pray before the Lord, and consider the real situation in your locality. Then you can make some adjustment of the eldership. (Elders’ Training, Book 8: The Life-pulse of the Lord’s Present Move, pp. 161-164, Witness Lee)

FULFILLING THE LORD’S COMMISSION
TO HIS RECOVERY

The Lord’s commission is His recovery, and His recovery today is to recover Christ as life, to recover the church as our living, to recover the enjoyment of Christ as everything to us, and to recover all the significances of the church life for the purpose of not only preaching the gospel but also spreading the truth. I believe that this is the unique reason that He has given us nearly all the truths in today’s Christianity. He has given us His truths for us to spread them not only to Christians but even to the unbelievers. The entire globe is under darkness. Every human being on the earth needs to hear the truth, but our spreading of the precious truths we have received has been strongly limited. There have been many strong testimonies concerning people getting attracted and caught by the notes in the Recovery Version, but who has the burden to go out and spread these truths?

Some brothers who are with us do not use these truths when they teach and preach. They teach and preach what they feel is good, yet they do not realize how poor their messages are. Some brothers among us continually put out some publications. I was honest to tell them that there was no light and nothing new in what they put out. The points in our publications are full of life and light, but these brothers would not present them as they are. I could not understand why they have to change the messages we publish to present something in their own style and in their own way. There are no new points of life or light in what they publish. Any life or light in their material is altogether adopted from this ministry. I have been observing this situation among us for years. I would like to see whether some younger brothers among us would be raised up by the Lord to speak something. If I could see this, I would praise the Lord. On the other hand, I have seen some who like to build up something around themselves.

The Lord has commissioned us with His recovery, and He has surely opened up the New Testament to reveal many dear and precious truths to us. What the Lord needs is for thousands of His dear saints who love Him, who live to Him, and who know nothing but His recovery to take one way. Regardless of whether the saints are from Brazil, Australia, New Zealand, Taiwan, England, Thailand, Indonesia, or the United States, we all bear the same burden, take the same way, and spread the same truths. We dispense the truths embodied in the “gold bar,” the Recovery Version. We have no other merchandise! If we would be like this, the entire earth will be taken!

It breaks my heart to see some practicing to have another ministry, using the material of the ministry. We all have to pray, “Lord, rescue me from my ambition to be somebody in the recovery.” We should only know the truths of God’s New Testament economy. We only use one way by one accord, prayer, the Spirit, and the Word. This is what I believe the Lord is after, and this is what we all expect in the depths of our being. Everyone will feel happy about this.

When we go out, we do not go in a dissenting or ambitious way. If you go out with your ambition to build yourself up and I go out with my ambition to build my ministry up, we are finished. The Lord has to go to others. We all need to go out in one way like an army. Then we will have the morale and the impact.

We do not need to do that much. We just need to go out with a pure heart, without anything to ourselves but all things to Him. Just go out with all the truths and the Recovery Version to read to people. I assure you that you will catch someone every week. You do not need to preach your teaching or your kind of doctrine with your terminology. We have to see what the Lord’s recovery is. The Lord’s recovery has been commissioned with a big enterprise to spread the Lord’s truths. He has given us the truths which we are holding. But we need the faithful, pure-hearted ones, who do not have any intention to live to themselves but to Him, to go out to spread these “gold bar” truths. There is no need for you to preach or teach in your way. Open up the Recovery Version and read some of the notes with the hungry ones.

Actually, though, I do not care that much for the increase. I care for the spreading of the truths so that they can get into the needy hearts. If we spread these truths, we will become the faithful servants to serve food to the Lord’s people at the appointed time (Matt. 24:45). Then we will fulfill the commission of the Lord’s recovery. This is where my heart is. I will die to this. I told the brothers in the Far East I will not stop until my entire being is exhausted by this ministry. I hope you all will say the same thing.

If the Lord can gain ten thousand saints in the United States to go full-time with one kind of teaching, one kind of preaching, one kind of material, one kind of publication, one kind of way, and everything one kind, this will be our morale! The wise way is that we all take the full-time way and speak the same thing, think the same thing, present the same thing, and teach the same thing, having the same essence, appearance and expression. Then we will have the morale, the impact, to defeat the enemy. This is what the Lord needs! (Elders’ Training, Book 8: The Life-pulse of the Lord’s Present Move, pp. 123-127, Witness Lee)

THE MINISTRY AND THE CHURCHES

Whether or not a certain church takes the ministry does not decide whether that church is a genuine local church. The title of this message does not say “no uncertain sounding of the trumpet in the Lord’s recovery” but “in the Lord’s ministry.” I am not talking about something in the Lord’s recovery, but I am talking about the ministry. The citizens of the United States may say many things to criticize the government and the commander in chief of the Armed Forces. But when you get into the army and become a soldier, you lose your right to say anything. It is possible to argue, debate, and even fight in the Senate, but even when the senators get in the army and become soldiers, they have to be quiet. There is no uncertain sounding in the army. The ministry is not like the Senate. The ministry is not a Congress for anyone to come here to express his opinion. The ministry has no capacity for that. The ministry is altogether filled up with a fighting spirit. I do not control any church. All the saints who have left the denominations, the divisive sects, and stand on the proper ground are a local church in their locality. They can express their opinions, but they may have nothing to do with this ministry.

Paul told us that all who were in Asia turned away from him (2 Tim. 1:15). The believers in Asia who had formerly received the apostle’s ministry now forsook him. They did not lose their status as local churches due to the fact that they gave up Paul’s ministry, but in fighting the battle, Paul’s ministry could not depend upon them. For Paul’s ministry they could not be counted on. To say that the ministry cannot depend upon a certain church does not mean that that church has been cut off from being a local church. It is still a local church, but we must realize that the ministry is a fighting unit. In this fighting unit there is no capacity and no time for your opinion.

I mean business for the Lord’s interest. I have sacrificed my entire life for the Lord’s ministry. I gave up everything to take the way of the Lord’s recovery. Now I must be faithful to myself. Furthermore, through my ministry on this globe, thousands of saints have come into the recovery, so I must be faithful to them. Many of the saints have given up high degrees to follow the Lord in His recovery, yet it seems what they are in is tending to be disappointing. This burdens me. Some of the saints became what they are in the Lord one hundred percent due to my ministry, and I do not want my ministry to waste their time. I have to do something to insure their investment of their whole being into the Lord’s recovery. They have given up their future in the world, but they cannot have much encouragement in the Lord’s recovery. I have to be faithful to the Lord, faithful to so many of you who have been very much affected by this ministry, and faithful to myself. For this reason, this ministry cannot allow anyone to pretend to be in it and yet still say something different. This does not mean that I ask you to stay away from your local church or that your local church is no longer a local church. What I am fellowshipping about is the impact of the ministry for the fighting of the Lord’s interest in His recovery.

Whatever I would say concerning the home gatherings, the full-timers, the truth lessons, and the spreading of the gospel is not for anyone who does not feel good about my ministry, who is dissenting to my ministry, who is pretending to be here under the ministry yet actually is not. I still love all the dear saints who may fall into this category and still count them as brothers in Christ, but we need to have an army full of impact, and this army has no capacity and no time for anyone to express any kind of opinion. We are fighting a battle. The army began the fighting already in Taiwan. Now we want to see this army increasing to fight the battle not only in the United States but also in Canada, in Central America, in South America, in Europe, in Africa, in Australasia, and in the entire continent of Asia. This is what I want to see. I am not talking about the churches, I am talking about the ministry. The ministry is one thing, and the churches are another thing. These two things can be differentiated in the Epistles written by Paul. Paul’s ministry is one category, and the churches are another category. Paul never tried to force all the churches to follow him in his ministry, but Paul surely had a ministry for the churches. (Elders’ Training, Book 7: One Accord for the Lord’s Move, pp. 74-76, Witness Lee)

© 2005 Living Stream Ministry

Koinonia · 12-11-2016, 12:51 AM

I would encourage everyone to listen to the following audio message: Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints given last week in Bellevue, WA by Bill Lawson.

This will give a very definite impression of where the LC is today. Recently, due to flagging LSM book sales, LC coworkers have appointed a group of brothers to travel around the US (and elsewhere) pushing LC members to purchase more and more ministry publications--with an explicit view to selling off large stocks of books that have been collecting dust in LSM warehouses for the last number of years.

In this presentation, Bill Lawson gives an overview of some of the recent LSM conferences and goes through manipulation after manipulation convincing the audience of their need to buy more LSM products. An accompanied PowerPoint presentation can be viewed here. The same presentation is being rolled out across the country by the other brothers chosen for this task (who are all named at the beginning of the Lawson recording).

least · 12-11-2016, 03:55 AM

Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made,
ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

Freedom · 12-11-2016, 05:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koinonia

This will give a very definite impression of where the LC is today. Recently, due to flagging LSM book sales, LC coworkers have appointed a group of brothers to travel around the US (and elsewhere) pushing LC members to purchase more and more ministry publications--with an explicit view to selling off large stocks of books that have been collecting dust in LSM warehouses for the last number of years.

It's really sad to see how the LSM is attempting to disguise its marketing efforts. It's kind of ironic that they would claim there is a need to read more ministry publications, when that is all LC members do in the first place.

Terry · 12-11-2016, 08:18 PM

Constituting oneself with knowledge of an earthly ministry doesn't have a corresponding reality. Still when it comes to fellow Christians not meeting in the local churches, there's no capacity to receive non-LC Christians because they are not denominated by ministry publications.

Terry · 12-11-2016, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freedom

It's kind of ironic that they would claim there is a need to read more ministry publications, when that is all LC members do in the first place.

I'm not so sure about that. In addition to the HWFMR, the publications seem to multiply. Even if you have capital to invest in the publications, who has time to read them all? They just collect dust. IMHO, money would be better spent on a genuine non-profit organization that has real community charity work.

Koinonia · 12-11-2016, 09:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

I'm not so sure about that. In addition to the HWFMR, the publications seem to multiply. Even if you have capital to invest in the publications, who has time to read them all? They just collect dust. IMHO, money would be better spent on a genuine non-profit organization that has real community charity work.

LSM is adept at repackaging the same things over and over again in various formats. But really the whole enterprise is running out of steam. A flyer has recently been circulated among LC members that is titled "Announcing the Completion of the Collected Works of Witness Lee" (scheduled: 2018). Here is a corresponding website. It is difficult for me to understand how people can get excited about this...

The LSM online bookstore is currently featuring a softbound copy of the Recovery Version of the Ezekiel (the upcoming Winter Training will begin the Crystallization-study of Ezekiel). Of course, the Recovery Version of Ezekiel has already been published in other formats for years. But diehards will buy multiple copies of the single volume, I'm sure. In recent years, LSM has also experimented with gimmicky things like pocket versions of various Life-studies ("Dwarsligger" format), in an apparent attempt at providing tired (and younger) members with new materials.

The dilemma for LSM is that they have no good ways to grow (or even maintain) book sales figures. They are mostly limited to a captive audience of current LC members. Once they really do put out the Collected Works of Witness Lee, they will have no new material--other than new editions of periodical publications like Holy Word for Morning Revival and Ministry Magazine. So, they will be stuck pushing members to buy copies of the same books to give away to other people, as well as coming up with newly packaged formats of the same existing publications. You can already see this happening.

Evangelical · 12-12-2016, 02:09 AM

They are not that well written either. For example, the publications are not well written, nor are they written well. Repeat the same things they tend to do. So as to repeat the things they tend to do the same. However, in my experience, many Christians cannot read well, so repeating things the same is not a problem, however we should practice more.

Freedom · 12-12-2016, 04:27 PM

It seems to me that the LSM made two major mistakes with regards to its publication business. Firstly, they limited their publications to Nee and Lee. By doing so, they have limited the scope of what can be published and since WL has been gone 20 years, there is nothing new to put out. Their product is limited by the aggregate of 2 past ministries, and all they can do now is find new ways to sell an old product. They have have assumed that there will be a perpetual demand for such publications, when it is likely that demand peaked long ago.

The other mistake is that the market for LSM publications has already been saturated with existing LSM publications. Take any longtime member and they have likely purchased a good number of LSM publications and a Life-Study set. Thus, it is unlikely that they want to repurchase the newer publications, even if it is the latest CWWL or whatever.

It was also my observation that the younger/newer members did not see the necessity to purchase LSM publications except on an as-needed basis. So the all the publications that LSM might have expected to sell in more recent times have likely gone largely unsold. I think the practice of buying every single book that came out was largely a thing of the past.

Koinonia · 12-12-2016, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freedom

It was also my observation that the younger/newer members did not see the necessity to purchase LSM publications except on an as-needed basis. So the all the publications that LSM might have expected to sell in more recent times have likely gone largely unsold. I think the practice of buying every single book that came out was largely a thing of the past.

This is very true. A lot of younger members now mostly use ministrybooks.org or certain officially released "epublications." However, many also use unofficially released (free) "epublications," which has become a major issue with LC coworkers. I have personally heard certain of them severely excoriate groups of FTTA trainees for using these.

Ohio · 12-12-2016, 05:50 PM

I tried to listen to Bill Lawson, I really did, but became exhausted after 15 minutes. So sad, so stale, been thru this for years. "HWFMR ... morning after morning ... but it's just like licking bar-b-que sauce off the chicken."

Really? Hold on folks! Wasn't that steady diet of HWFMR, excerpts from the most recent training, supposed to "constitute the reader with the divine riches for the building up of the body of Christ consummating in the New Jerusalem?"

Apparently it didn't work. So, buy some more books! Look, we're running a special. Collected Works. Order now and save 45%.

Their market is definitely drying up. Go to a campus meeting -- no one even carries a Bible any more. Got a smart phone or a tablet? That's all you need.

I'm starting to think that LSM quarantined the GLA and Brazil simply because their regional sales projections were falling off. Regardless of what you may have been told, the LC's exist only to support LSM -- attend their trainings, send your kids to FTTA, and buy their books.

My long-time observation is that the anointing on those messages is drying up. I read messages 40 years ago, and they were indeed anointed with holy oil. Not so today. Those same messages are dry and tasteless. It's not a joke.

Evangelical · 12-12-2016, 07:23 PM

Messages are not anointed. People are. If we use our spirit to pray and contact the Lord any boring message becomes full of life.

Ohio · 12-12-2016, 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Messages are not anointed. People are. If we use our spirit to pray and contact the Lord any boring message becomes full of life.

Don't people give messages?

And if any boring message can become full of life, then all of us would have remained in the dreaded denominations.

You are definitely conflicted in your assessments.

least · 12-13-2016, 02:38 AM

"HWFMR ... morning after morning ... but it's just like licking bar-b-que sauce off the chicken."
Really? Hold on folks! Wasn't that steady diet of HWFMR, excerpts from the most recent training, supposed to "constitute the reader with the divine riches for the building up of the body of Christ consummating in the New Jerusalem?"

Not kidding!!!! Buy buy buy, listen ... multiple sets of tens of thousands of pages for yuor consumption. Another 20 years of HWFMR + HWFAR ... it'll be like licking bar-b-sauce + chicken skin. Then need mooooore boooooks, tens of thousands of pages + hundreds of thousands of pages and another 20years later of HWFMR+HWFAR+HWFNR .... THEN will be like licking bar-b-que sauce + chicken skin + a slice of chicken meat ...

HERn · 12-13-2016, 05:05 AM

I listened to the whole thing. My take was that it was nervously given with a worry that not enough books are getting on the members' bookshelves. Not once did I hear the word "Bible". I heard the word "ministry" countless times and the word "word" several times. The speaker equates the ministry or publications of LSM with the word, and the only two names associated with their ministry are Nee and Lee, although the speaker did mention Paul once. They say they are rich, but really they are deceived in that their reading only the publications of LSM keeps them in darkness, poverty and separated from the body of Christ.

ZNPaaneah · 12-13-2016, 06:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Look, we're running a special. Collected Works. Order now and save 45%.

If you really want to save some money wait for a year. When the Local Church book rooms clean out their closets with yard sales you can probably get this for 95% off.

Ohio · 12-13-2016, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

If you really want to save some money wait for a year. When the Local Church book rooms clean out their closets with yard sales you can probably get this for 95% off.

Hang out with a few older malcontents ... You might even get free delivery!

Freedom · 12-13-2016, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

I tried to listen to Bill Lawson, I really did, but became exhausted after 15 minutes. So sad, so stale, been thru this for years. "HWFMR ... morning after morning ... but it's just like licking bar-b-que sauce off the chicken."

Really? Hold on folks! Wasn't that steady diet of HWFMR, excerpts from the most recent training, supposed to "constitute the reader with the divine riches for the building up of the body of Christ consummating in the New Jerusalem?"

The LC is full of gimmicky promotions, but this one tops most others. What strikes me is how evident the current state of the LC is, yet members believe they are in the best place on earth. If the LC continues down its current path, it won't be long before LC members really begin to pick up on it. When a group bases itself upon enthusiasm for a certain ministry, and that enthusiasm is simmering down, it's only a matter of time before the inevitable happens. Perhaps the inevitable has already began to occur. Certainly, the enthusiasm for what Lee taught peaked long ago.

I think part of the reason LSM books sold well in the past is because people who were there in the heyday of the LC wanted to be immersed in what Lee was teaching. Therefore, buying all the books being put out, reading all the Life-Studies was more desirable during that time. I was around brothers who were always encouraging us to read the ministry, read the Life-Studies, yet despite that push, we never really were much enthusiastic to read more than what we had to. There was simply not much interest in reading LSM publications beyond what HWFMR the church was going over.

The LC has been in the U.S. for over 50 years. That has been plenty of time for any benefits of reading ministry books to have become apparent. But when members do what they're encouraged to do, and nothing comes of it, discouragement sets in. The next time they're encouraged to do the same thing, they know better, so they passively resist doing it. That is basically the root of the problem that the LC is facing. They cannot come up with any new idea to make things work better. They just keep rehashing the same ideas that have failed time and time again.

Koinonia · 12-13-2016, 01:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freedom

The LC is full of gimmicky promotions, but this one tops most others. What strikes me is how evident the current state of the LC is, yet members believe they are in the best place on earth. If the LC continues down its current path, it won't be long before LC members really begin to pick up on it. When a group bases itself upon enthusiasm for a certain ministry, and that enthusiasm is simmering down, it's only a matter of time before the inevitable happens. Perhaps the inevitable has already began to occur. Certainly, the enthusiasm for what Lee taught peaked long ago.

I think part of the reason LSM books sold well in the past is because people who were there in the heyday of the LC wanted to be immersed in what Lee was teaching. Therefore, buying all the books being put out, reading all the Life-Studies was more desirable during that time. I was around brothers who were always encouraging us to read the ministry, read the Life-Studies, yet despite that push, we never really were much enthusiastic to read more than what we had to. There was simply not much interest in reading LSM publications beyond what HWFMR the church was going over.

The LC has been in the U.S. for over 50 years. That has been plenty of time for any benefits of reading ministry books to have become apparent. But when members do what they're encouraged to do, and nothing comes of it, discouragement sets in. The next time they're encouraged to do the same thing, they know better, so they passively resist doing it. That is basically the root of the problem that the LC is facing. They cannot come up with any new idea to make things work better. They just keep rehashing the same ideas that have failed time and time again.

This is very insightful. When you look at various LC initiatives (and they are always coming), they are usually about trying to drum up interest in Witness Lee's books. Radio program, seminars, giving away books, selling books, translating books, etc., etc., etc. When interest wanes, there is not a lot left.

Ohio · 12-13-2016, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freedom

I think part of the reason LSM books sold well in the past is because people who were there in the heyday of the LC wanted to be immersed in what Lee was teaching. Therefore, buying all the books being put out, reading all the Life-Studies was more desirable during that time.

Early books by Lee closely covered the scriptures, either sequentially or topically. As I entered the scene in 1976, we would receive a few messages a week on "standing order." At the time, the church in Cleveland was going thru Genesis. I found the messages very "edible," and easily carried in my pocket, so I could read them at work. Then they did away with "loose" messages, which made them less accessible.

Initially the messages met a real need in the saints. It was apparent that the ministry of WL attempted to "serve us." Then, those on standing order began to receive books at an overwhelming rate. Only the fastest readers could keep up. I went back to college and had little time for superfluous reading. Unread materials started gathering dust on my shelves. Then the same materials were re-released as "rainbow" booklets, then in soft-bound books, and eventually hard-bound in green volumes. Soon most of us only stayed with the standing order as a donation, and by the '90's most of us dropped out of the standing order.

LSM over time moved from Life-Studies to New Way Instructions to Crystallization Studies to "High Peak" to Blendeds Re-speaking, with each progression distancing the written page from the Word of God. Some where along that windy path I lost my appetite for all things LSM. In '07 my basement flooded wiping out boxes of un-shelved books, then a few years ago I gave away all the blue and green bound volumes. I never missed them.

Some of the brothers who were with WL from the early days have written how they had definitely noticed the anointing on his ministry wane over time. The decline definitely corresponded with unrepentant unrighteousness in the ministry. So it's no wonder that the long-time survivors would speak of those old glory days at Elden Hall. For most of us, the truth behind the "storms" of rebellion was kept secret, so we became laden with guilt that our lack of appetite for ministry books was our own fault. Actually it had nothing to do with us. The books now are mostly tasteless doctrines.

HERn · 12-13-2016, 03:46 PM

Another thing I perceived during Bill Lawson's pitch were tepid "amens". They were polite but noone seemed FTT enthusiastic. What Freedom posted about enthusiasm waning seems spot on.

Evangelical · 12-13-2016, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HERn

Another thing I perceived during Bill Lawson's pitch were tepid "amens". They were polite but noone seemed FTT enthusiastic. What Freedom posted about enthusiasm waning seems spot on.

You mean he was not using his spirit.

Koinonia · 12-13-2016, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

You mean he was not using his spirit.

It could have something to do with his subject matter, too.

Koinonia · 12-13-2016, 06:36 PM

"Announcing the Completion of the Collected Works of Witness Lee"

Quote:

In August 2018 The Collected Works of Witness Lee will be completed and made available in its entirety. This represents a monumental step in church history because it is a faithful preservation of the ministry that has been given by the Lord to His church for the growth and building up of the Body of Christ. Concerning this ministry, Brother Lee testifies, “It is a fact of history in the Lord’s recovery that any church which follows the ministry is strong and blessed. But those churches which neglect the ministry and try instead to do something on their own have become a failure...My burden is to produce groceries. The churches and the saints are free either to use them or to disregard them. But if the saints cast away the nourishment found in these messages, I wonder what they will feed on. We are what we eat. If we eat the ‘groceries’ produced in today’s religion, we shall be part of religion. Let me say in frankness and honesty that the leading ones need to take ‘these things’ and lay them before the saints that they may be nourished”

Quote:

Possessing this set is a unique opportunity to preserve the priceless supply of the ministry with which the Lord has blessed His recovery through the speaking of the Spirit. We encourage the churches around the world to make this heritage available to the saints. The Collected Works of Witness Lee with the comprehensive index will be an invaluable resource for use in personal study, in home meetings, and in the shepherding and care of the saints. In addition, this complete set will provide a lasting legacy of the truth for our children and generations to come. Surely, this ministry is not for us alone, for in receiving it, we have been entrusted with a stewardship. “If indeed you have heard of the stewardship of the grace of God which was given to me for you, that by revelation the mystery was made known to me...by which, in reading it, you can perceive my understanding in the mystery of Christ” (Eph. 3:2-4). “The stewardship of the grace is for the dispensing of the grace of God to His chosen people for the producing and building up of the church. Out of this stewardship comes the ministry” (v. 2, footnote 2). “If you lay these things before the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, being nourished with the words of the faith and of the good teaching which you have closely followed” (1 Tim. 4:6). “To minister Christ to others requires that first we ourselves be nourished with the words of life concerning Christ”

HERn · 12-13-2016, 08:15 PM

"monumental step in church history"? Which church and by whose accounting? Can you imagine Paul saying his book of Romans was a monumental step in church history? Or maybe John about the book of Revelation. I doubt the name Witness Lee will even be known after 100 years much less 2,000 years. It's possible Watchman Nee will be remembered. Does the recovery think fhd writings of WL surpasses the writings of Paul?

Evangelical · 12-14-2016, 06:14 AM

Well Paul only wrote 15 books over his ministry period of 30 years. Witness Lee wrote over 400 books over a ministry period of about 50 years. Paul did not write sufficiently for us today. In fact Paul did not even write books to explain various things like Witness Lee did, they are just letters from which we must infer many things. The insufficiency of Paul's writings is evident by the prevalence of Christian writings today and Christian bookstores. Otherwise why would we need them? It is remarkable that some Christians think God, knowing that the church would continue or 2000 years after Paul, would not provide people with sufficient written resources to aid their spiritual growth, by people such as Watchman Nee and Witness Lee.

Ohio · 12-14-2016, 07:12 AM

I don't think WL ever sat down and wrote a single book.

Koinonia · 12-14-2016, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

I don't think WL ever sat down and wrote a single book.

Witness Lee may have written Watchman Nee: A Seer in the Divine Revelation in the Present Age, but that's about it. Perpetually attached recording devices and teams of volunteer and paid transcribers/editors/proofreaders/printers, etc., is not the same thing as "writing over 400 books."

Freedom · 12-14-2016, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

I don't think WL ever sat down and wrote a single book.

It's actually a bit ironic when you really think about it. Virtually all the LSM publications are transcriptions of messages that Nee and Lee gave. Along with WL's Seer, I think Nee wrote several books, though I don't recall which ones they were, but other than that it's virtually all messages.

The thing about a message is it's given to a specific audience. A book is usually written with a much larger audience in mind. When WL traveled to a church somewhere, gave a conference, how do we know those messages were intended to be applicable to everyone, not just to address a need with the church that invited him? We simply have no way of knowing what WL's was intending to accomplish with any given message that he gave.

And I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with producing books that are transcriptions of messages. I think there are plenty of such types of Christian books that can be beneficial. It's just that LSM has transcribed everything spoken into the written form and then published it, as if every single spoken message WL gave is universally applicable. That is mainly what I call into question. When LSM publishes a random book composed of messages WL gave at some point, how do we know that those messages are applicable to us now? Why should anyone feel compelled to read them? By contrast, anyone can go to a Christian book store or go online to Kindle and download a book to read, a book written on a particular topic, meant to address a particular subject, not based on some message given in the distant past.

Koinonia · 12-14-2016, 10:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freedom

Along with WL's Seer, I think Nee wrote several books, though I don't recall which ones they were, but other than that it's virtually all messages.

Nee did do some writing, but I believe the only book he actually ever sat down and wrote was The Spiritual Man.

Igzy · 12-14-2016, 11:04 AM

I kept my green bound life-studies for a long time. They sat in the garage in a cardboard box for years. I guess my original idea that they were a good summation of the Bible stuck with me. Finally I just decided to get rid of them. It felt hypocritical to sell them so I put them in my car and went and threw them in a dumpster. It wasn't an act of contempt, just cleaning out the garage and moving on. I've never regretted it.

Besides, the strength of Lee's ministry was never in the details. In fact he often goes way off on the details, particularly about relationships. He was really always about the big vision and that can pretty much be summed up in one book or his Bible footnotes. Most of his stuff is very repetitive to the point of being superfluous.

Lee was never very good about practically applying the word to real life. He was always about life being an ongoing process of being blown away by big visions, being motivated by that to do things (attend meetings, give money), and then repeating.

What was essentially good about Lee's ministry? Basically to have a real intimate relationship with God, let that permeate your life and cause you meet with other Christians in unity and simplicity for the glory of God. That's what's stuck with me--have a real relationship with Christ and love and receive all believers, don't get hung up on doctrines.

The rest was just the details. Some was very good: Resurrection life, indwelling Spirit, glorious riches. But much was just superfluous and even in error: The local ground, mingling, metabolic transformation, spiritual authority, the Recovery, Minister of the Age, one trumpet, quarantining.

Ohio · 12-14-2016, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

I kept my green bound life-studies for a long time. They sat in the garage in a cardboard box for years. I guess my original idea that they were a good summation of the Bible stuck with me. Finally I just decided to get rid of them. It felt hypocritical to sell them so I put them in my car and went and threw them in a dumpster.

I gave mine to an old friend. He and his wife had a spat and she took all his green and blue books and threw them in a dumpster.

Igzy · 12-14-2016, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

I gave mine to an old friend. He and his wife had a spat and she took all his green and blue books and threw them in a dumpster.

Maybe he lectured her from "the Ministry."

Big mistake!

Ohio · 12-14-2016, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

Maybe he lectured her from "the Ministry."

Big mistake!

She had an "allergic reaction" to the ministry "medication."

HERn · 12-14-2016, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Well Paul only wrote 15 books over his ministry period of 30 years. Witness Lee wrote over 400 books over a ministry period of about 50 years. Paul did not write sufficiently for us today. In fact Paul did not even write books to explain various things like Witness Lee did, they are just letters from which we must infer many things. The insufficiency of Paul's writings is evident by the prevalence of Christian writings today and Christian bookstores. Otherwise why would we need them? It is remarkable that some Christians think God, knowing that the church would continue or 2000 years after Paul, would not provide people with sufficient written resources to aid their spiritual growth, by people such as Watchman Nee and Witness Lee.

"The insufficiency of Paul's writings"

Wow! That statement was an honest opinion that would never be uttered in pub!ic by the elders or LSM leaders. There we have it, God's inspired word, the New Testsament is insufficient!!

Evangelical · 12-14-2016, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HERn

"The insufficiency of Paul's writings"

Wow! That statement was an honest opinion that would never be uttered in pub!ic by the elders or LSM leaders. There we have it, God's inspired word, the New Testsament is insufficient!!

So I assume you don't have any Christian books other than just the New Testament. If you do, then this proves that the New Testament is not sufficient for you. That is what I meant by the insufficiency of Paul's writings, not that they themselves lacked anything except deeper and further revelation which others could complete.

The Bible never says it was complete, nor does it say ministry ceased when the Bible was written.

Igzy · 12-14-2016, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

So I assume you don't have any Christian books other than just the New Testament. If you do, then this proves that the New Testament is not sufficient for you. That is what I meant by the insufficiency of Paul's writings, not that they themselves lacked anything except deeper and further revelation which others could complete.

The Bible never says it was complete, nor does it say ministry ceased when the Bible was written.

There is the warning in Revelation 22 about not adding or taking away from the revelation. The fact that it came at the end of the whole Bible could be taken to mean "revelation" refers to the whole Bible.

The LCM has always flirted with the idea that Lee's teaching was "further revelation" almost on par or even on par with the Bible. That's the danger.

JJ · 12-14-2016, 10:40 PM

The concept of needing "the interpreted Word" from "the minister of the Word" came from Watchman Nee

http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=27062AC2C5

It was restated by Witness Lee

http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=260328CBC5

http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=260328CBCA

And in recent years, I witnessed "the blenders", coworkers, elders, and saints in TLR teaching that "the interpreted Word" is the LSM publications, and they are better than the Bible itself for guiding your Christian life and "church life".

That is one of the things that caused me to run, and run fast from TLR.

Paul considered that he was completing the word of God http://biblehub.com/colossians/1-25.htm

John and Old Testament prophets gave severe warnings about adding to or taking away from God's Word
http://biblehub.com/revelation/22-19.htm

That's enough for me to steal clear of LSM "interpreted word" claims, and warn others not to "buy it". Read the Bible yourself, rely on the Holy Spirit first, commentaries second.

Evangelical · 12-14-2016, 10:45 PM

If it is correct that we just need to read the Bible for ourselves and rely on the Spirit, then why did God give the church teachers? (Ephesians 4:11). It seems that teachers are not required if we just read for ourselves and rely upon the Spirit.

And why did the Spirit lead Philip to speak to this man:

Acts 8:30 Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. "Do you understand what you are reading?" Philip asked.

Acts 8:31 "How can I," he said, "unless someone explains it to me?" So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.

Did Philip tell the man to "rely on the Holy Spirit first"? No, it was the Spirit who inspired Philip to help the man.

Reading the bible for ourselves without consulting others is a sure way to fall into deception. We need teachers and explainers like Philip to help us understand the Bible.

This is why we have Sunday School classes. We don't just expect children to read the bible for themselves and not help them understand it.

I know the hypocrisy of many in denominations today. On the one hand they hold just a copy of the Bible and claim to be led by the Spirit when they read it, not requiring any other assistance. On the other hand they gladly accept the pastor's messages (such as how to be successful in business etc) which have nothing to do with Paul's ministry, and when they say "give more so you will be blessed more" they are all too willing to part with their money so as to receive a "blessing".

JJ · 12-14-2016, 11:14 PM

Good come back. You have been well trained, as that example was cited by both Nee and Lee as the basis for their "interpreted word" teaching. Phillip's interpretation helped the Eunich to understand the scripture and turn to Jesus. But Phillip didn't tell the Eunich to put his scripture away. And, the Holy Spirit bore witness to both.

Dropping any one of these things (help from other brothers, written scripture, or Holy Spirit's guidance) is the problem.

I observed saints reading only portions of LSM without the verse references, dead meetings without scripture reading to check what was being said, and praising of Witness Lee and Watchman Nee and/or "the church".

Evangelical · 12-15-2016, 05:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJ

Good come back. You have been well trained, as that example was cited by both Nee and Lee as the basis for their "interpreted word" teaching. Phillip's interpretation helped the Eunich to understand the scripture and turn to Jesus. But Phillip didn't tell the Eunich to put his scripture away. And, the Holy Spirit bore witness to both.

Dropping any one of these things (help from other brothers, written scripture, or Holy Spirit's guidance) is the problem.

I observed saints reading only portions of LSM without the verse references, dead meetings without scripture reading to check what was being said, and praising of Witness Lee and Watchman Nee and/or "the church".

It's not a replacement for scripture, we never tell anyone to put scripture away. Scripture always comes first.

Ohio · 12-15-2016, 06:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

It's not a replacement for scripture, we never tell anyone to put scripture away. Scripture always comes first.

Just keep them so busy that they don't have time for anything but hwfmr.

Then don't allow them to speak from the Bible, only the hwfmr.

Evangelical · 12-15-2016, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Just keep them so busy that they don't have time for anything but hwfmr.

Then don't allow them to speak from the Bible, only the hwfmr.

Still, because of the ministry material, a young one in the Lord's Recovery can expound the scripture better than an old person in the average denomination. Having the ministry material puts all the other churches to shame. And furthermore, the young people are capable to stand up and speak. In most denominations, young people cannot do that.

Igzy · 12-15-2016, 06:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Still, because of the ministry material, a young one in the Lord's Recovery can expound the scripture better than an old person in the average denomination. Having the ministry material puts all the other churches to shame.

I gotta love you, Evangelical. You are giving me so much material for my comic strip MOTA!

Ohio · 12-15-2016, 06:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Still, because of the ministry material, a young one in the Lord's Recovery can expound the scripture better than an old person in the average denomination. Having the ministry material puts all the other churches to shame. And furthermore, the young people are capable to stand up and speak. In most denominations, young people cannot do that.

The Pharisees could make the same claim.

90% of the young people leave, and you get excited about the 10% who become Know-it-alls.

ZNPaaneah · 12-15-2016, 06:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Still, because of the ministry material, a young one in the Lord's Recovery can expound the scripture better than an old person in the average denomination. Having the ministry material puts all the other churches to shame. And furthermore, the young people are capable to stand up and speak. In most denominations, young people cannot do that.

Puts the other churches to shame? Are you even aware of what actually puts a church to shame?

1Cor 6:5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers!

least · 12-15-2016, 08:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Just keep them so busy that they don't have time for anything but hwfmr.
Then don't allow them to speak from the Bible, only the hwfmr.

No. That's only fmr. Just like licking the bbq sauce off the chicken.
Buy multiple sets of tens of thousands of pages, for afternoon revival, fnr, ...

Igzy · 12-15-2016, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Still, because of the ministry material, a young one in the Lord's Recovery can expound the scripture better than an old person in the average denomination. Having the ministry material puts all the other churches to shame. And furthermore, the young people are capable to stand up and speak. In most denominations, young people cannot do that.

There are all kinds of material available to indoctrinate young people if your goal is to fill them with theology. Any church could to that and they wouldn't need Lee's ministry to do it.

What most leaders have figured out is that doesn't work. What works is helping kids have a love for God and others. Inundating them with theology can just give them a false sense of spirituality--as it has done with (ahem) some people we know.

As for being able to speak in meetings, the LCM practice may teach kids to mindlessly repeat things they don't even really believe to get crowd approval. Not very healthy.

Ohio · 12-15-2016, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

As for being able to speak in meetings, the LCM practice ...

Initially, being encouraged to speak in meetings was only a positive, at least for me, because we were encouraged to publicly give our personal testimonies.

Later on the exhortation to speak in meetings was still mostly positive because, even though we used Lee's messages as a starting point, we in the GLA were encouraged to go back to the Bible for our truth and inspiration.

Repeating hwfmr with robotic amen's has little spiritual value.

Drake · 12-15-2016, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

The Pharisees could make the same claim.

90% of the young people leave, and you get excited about the 10% who become Know-it-alls.

Most of the young people I know have not left and they don't exhibit that attitude.

Drake

Ohio · 12-15-2016, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Puts the other churches to shame? Are you even aware of what actually puts a church to shame?

1Cor 6:5 I say this to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you, not even one, who will be able to judge between his brethren? 6 But brother goes to law against brother, and that before unbelievers!

Any shame when the manager of LSM gets caught with "interns."

Even our Prez took more heat than "The Office" for the same sins.

Perhaps the proponents of LSM on this forum will use the excuse that a ministry and its staff are not subject to the same standards as elders and churches. The apostle Paul, however, would differ. (II Cor 4.2)

Koinonia · 12-15-2016, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Most of the young people I know have not left and they don't exhibit that attitude.

Drake

Even LC leaders say that 50%+ leave. And from my observation, the number is much higher.

Igzy · 12-15-2016, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Even LC leaders say that 50%+ leave. And from my observation, the number is much higher.

In fairness, the dropout rate across the board in all churches is high. I think the main problem is we don't encourage kids to develop their own faith. We indoctrinate them, put them on cruise control and avoid the tough questions.

I just teach my boys that God is real, he wants to be close to them and that they can trust him. I encourage good behavior, of course, but I don't preach to them. I think if they learn to love and trust God like David did, they have a good chance. "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." Proverbs 22:6.

However, because of the LCM's grand opinion of themselves and their methods they are more in the hot seat than others on this. Talk is cheap. It's all about the fruit.

Ohio · 12-15-2016, 11:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

In fairness, the dropout rate across the board in all churches is high. I think the main problem is we don't encourage kids to develop their own faith. We indoctrinate them, put them on cruise control and avoid the tough questions.

I just teach my boys that God is real, he wants to be close to them and that they can trust him. I encourage good behavior, of course, but I don't preach to them. I think if they learn to love and trust God like David did, they have a good chance. "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." Proverbs 22:6.

However, because of the LCM's grand opinion of themselves and their methods they are more in the hot seat than others on this. Talk is cheap. It's all about the fruit.

In my neck of the woods it often seemed like hotheads were always promoted and rarely were held accountable. When my son thinks back on the LC experience, he remembers one event at a church camp that stood out. One of the boys was being a pain while playing unsupervised basketball, so he made up a story, told his dad, and blamed my son. Dad shows up and strangled my son screaming at him.

Hothead never asked the other boys what was happening in the game. Hothead never cared to reconcile or moderate play, introducing his son back into the game. All the other church kids were just shocked that junior had successfully deceived his father. I was not at the camp, but I assume that hothead had to leave "the fellowship" in order to intervene ...

Nothing was really learned there about relationships. I found out months later. Hothead was close friends with the leading elder, so there was no available recourse, and I know how they think, "kids need to learn a lesson ..."

And the "lessons" they learned?

Koinonia · 12-15-2016, 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

In fairness, the dropout rate across the board in all churches is high. I think the main problem is we don't encourage kids to develop their own faith. We indoctrinate them, put them on cruise control and avoid the tough questions.

I just teach my boys that God is real, he wants to be close to them and that they can trust him. I encourage good behavior, of course, but I don't preach to them. I think if they learn to love and trust God like David did, they have a good chance. "Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." Proverbs 22:6.

However, because of the LCM's grand opinion of themselves and their methods they are more in the hot seat than others on this. Talk is cheap. It's all about the fruit.

The numbers may be comparable, I'm not sure--although I do think the number that leaves the LC is closer to 90%. I've seen FTTA grads snap and give up the whole thing, even to become atheists. And that is something especially troubling to me--"church-kids" who become disillusioned often seem to have be so messed up by it that they are unable to get spiritual help anywhere after that.

Igzy · 12-15-2016, 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koinonia

And that is something especially troubling to me--"church-kids" who become disillusioned often seem to have be so messed up by it that they are unable to get spiritual help anywhere after that.

This is the dark side of declaring "Christianity" as "fallen, divided Babylon." If people don't think there is anything really positive there they can't get help there. They get stuck in limbo. Some never break out of it.

There will be an accounting for all these damaged people. Somebody will be held accountable. Lord help us all.

Drake · 12-15-2016, 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

This is the dark side of declaring "Christianity" as "fallen, divided Babylon." If people don't think there is anything really positive there they can't get help there. They get stuck in limbo. Some never break out of it.

There will be an accounting for all these damaged people. Somebody will be held accountable. Lord help us all.

It is a thought provoking discussion and there could be several possible reasons.

I don't agree with generalizations but I don't dismiss the anecdotal out of hand either. I have some of my own, for instance, there is a higher dropout rate in America that I don't see in other places. Second and third generation often do not have the life changing experiences that brought their parents or grandparents into the Lords Recovery and still keeps them. The restrictions placed on the children in terms of television, dances, parties, and other activities considered worldly created resentment. Young people today have the lure of the world and ready made accommodation to sin right at their fingertips that we never had to deal with. There were individual situations like Ohio mentions.

I join Igzy in this sincere plea: Lord help us and the young people.

Drake

Freedom · 12-15-2016, 04:54 PM

I was born and raised in the LC, and as such, I got to experience some of the disconnect in discussion first hand. For example, my family was completely anti-Christmas, even to an extreme. So much so that on days where there were holiday related activities, we were pulled from school. As a kid, I obviously had no idea what was going on, other than the stark realization that I was different than everyone else. Moreover the whole attitude felt punitive. Us kids didn't even know what Christmas was, yet we kids got 'punished' for it in the sense of the social isolation. I've since moved on from the resentment, since what happened is over and done. The reason I bring this up ,however, is to illustrate just what happens when things are imposed as has been discussed.

Getting back to the subject of LSM publications, I believe that there is anecdotal value to this type of discussion. When WL started out, I think that people were drawn to him because he was perceived to be a gifted Bible teacher. Thus his ministry and publications had some sort of expository value to people who felt it helped them to know the Bible better. Somewhere along the way, a view developed that WL's ministry encompassed THE truth that everyone needed to be 'constituted' with. This was certainly my view of his ministry, and the view that was continually instilled in me. Notice that I'm not saying that his ministry didn't have any potential benefit. It's just the fact that the entire approach was wrong. Along with anyone else, if we were going to be encouraged to read WL's ministry, it should have been with a personal goal to be able to know and understand the Bible better. That was never the goal. The goal was to be 'constituted' with his ministry.

The end result is members, even young members, who can recite spiritual jargon but really have no clue what they are talking about. Maybe a lot of it is just harmless, I'm not out to judge, but I do see it all the time on places like Facebook. The more concerning issue, however, is what happens when all these people run into problems that they're not ready to deal with, problems that reciting spiritual jargon can't solve. Again, I'm not saying that WL's ministry itself is the dead end, it's how it is being utilized and promoted. It is my belief that the current LC approach to WL's ministry has ruined any positive benefit it might have had for the larger Christian community.

Ohio · 12-15-2016, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

This is the dark side of declaring "Christianity" as "fallen, divided Babylon." If people don't think there is anything really positive there they can't get help there. They get stuck in limbo. Some never break out of it.

There will be an accounting for all these damaged people. Somebody will be held accountable. Lord help us all.

This to me is inexcusable. Many workers / trainers at LSM actively desire to make their young people totally "wrecked" for Christianity. They would rather have these young people in the world or in a mental hospital, than have them in another Christian church. How pathetic is this?

This disease came straight from the top. The constant railing against all things Christian, has born fruit, bad fruit.

One of the things that surprised us the most, while visiting other churches, is this multi-generational faith. We often saw 3 generations of Christians in the church, with the grandchildren marrying and starting the fourth. What a beautiful thing!

Exclusivism truly is a self-destructive disease.

Evangelical · 12-15-2016, 05:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Initially, being encouraged to speak in meetings was only a positive, at least for me, because we were encouraged to publicly give our personal testimonies.

Later on the exhortation to speak in meetings was still mostly positive because, even though we used Lee's messages as a starting point, we in the GLA were encouraged to go back to the Bible for our truth and inspiration.

Repeating hwfmr with robotic amen's has little spiritual value.

You are talking about the difference between those who use their spirit and those who don't.

Evangelical · 12-15-2016, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

This to me is inexcuseable. Many workers / trainers at LSM actively desire to make the young people "wrecked" for Christianity. They would rather have these young people in the world or in a mental hospital, than have them in another Christian church. How pathetic is this?

This disease came straight from the top. The constant railing against all things Christian, has born fruit, bad fruit.

One of the things that surprised us the most, while visiting other churches, is this multi-generational faith. We often saw 3 generations of Christians in the church, with the grandchildren marrying and starting the fourth. What a beautiful thing!

Exclusivism truly is a self-destructive disease.

Generational Christianity is evident in Catholic and JW churches too. Actually the Mormons do it even better, with the power of exponentiation with multiple wives.

Evangelical · 12-15-2016, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

The Pharisees could make the same claim.

90% of the young people leave, and you get excited about the 10% who become Know-it-alls.

Even those stats would make any pastor in the denominations jealous.

Evangelical · 12-15-2016, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freedom

The end result is members, even young members, who can recite spiritual jargon but really have no clue what they are talking about. Maybe a lot of it is just harmless, I'm not out to judge, but I do see it all the time on places like Facebook. The more concerning issue, however, is what happens when all these people run into problems that they're not ready to deal with, problems that reciting spiritual jargon can't solve. Again, I'm not saying that WL's ministry itself is the dead end, it's how it is being utilized and promoted. It is my belief that the current LC approach to WL's ministry has ruined any positive benefit it might have had for the larger Christian community.

How do you know that people don't have a clue what they are talking about based upon their Facebook post?

Igzy · 12-15-2016, 05:17 PM

To me a test of your validity and sincerity as a believer is: Can you pass on your faith to the next generation? The cliche is that the preacher's kids are often the wildest. Witness Lee's son Philip was out of control. It's a real challenge that can be easily blown if you handle it wrong.

I went to an event where the writer of the book The Shack (soon to be a movie) spoke frankly about his life. His dad was a Christian worker of some sort, but one who showed very little love for his children. He was well-behaved at church, but abusive at home. It's a sad legacy that is repeated all too often.

There is something about we committed Christians who are parents that tends to expect our kids to be good Christians as a matter of course. This won't work. We need to be proactive in a genuine way.

My approach is simple and basic:

Love your kids.
Be holy, but not holier-than-thou.
Apologize when you've done wrong. Don't protect your image.
Be genuine.
Don't be a prude. Have a sense of humor.
Teach your kids the essentials: Love. Relationships. Prayer. Faith. Trust. The positive rewards of a life entrusted to God.
A little theology is okay, but don't overdo it. They will tune it out. Always bring it back to a joyful and natural relationship with God.
Always let them know that they are special to God. Teach them to be content and comfortable with how God made them.
Laugh a lot. Have a happy home.
Show them a life of sacrificial love. This where the rubber meets the road. This is what God honors.
Pray, pray, pray.

Evangelical · 12-15-2016, 05:44 PM

How your children turn out is not one of the tests for validity and sincerity of a person's faith.

Drake · 12-15-2016, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

How your children turn out is not one of the tests for validity and sincerity of a person's faith.

I agree with that.

I have witnessed model parents in the faith and by any standard terrific where some of their children turned out superb and others not so good. I have also witnessed parents who were not so faithful but their children turned out great.

There are many factors and at some point children decide and make choices for themselves.

Drake

Igzy · 12-15-2016, 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

How your children turn out is not one of the tests for validity and sincerity of a person's faith.

Jesus did say "by their fruit you shall know them."

But I wouldn't make it black and white. I agree there are many factors involved. But I do think it's hard for hypocrites to pass on Christian sincerity to their children. Children know fakes when they see them.

Koinonia · 12-15-2016, 08:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Even those stats would make any pastor in the denominations jealous.

Do you actually believe that?

Evangelical · 12-15-2016, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koinonia

Do you actually believe that?

No, I was being facetious, which is my response to a 90%/10% figure pulled out of thin air.

UntoHim · 12-15-2016, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

How your children turn out is not one of the tests for validity and sincerity of a person's faith.

True enough. But how your children turn out is absolutely one of the tests for qualification and fitness for leadership - At the very least, being an elder or a deacon. This is where Witness Lee failed miserably, and this failure was known by brothers and sisters in the Far East going back to at least the 60s.

This is one of the main reasons I question those who say there was so much "blessing" in the Local Church of Witness Lee movement at any point in time. Yes, God can bless whomever he chooses to bless, regardless of their spirituality, holiness, knowledge, faithfulness, etc. God knows that I am living proof of this. However, individual blessing is a totally different matter than the blessing, much less approval, of an entire Christian movement.

Witness Lee, and now the Blended Brothers, demand that every Local Church member fully imbibe (swallow wholesale) everything that came out of Witness Lee's mouth. Everything the man ever said is to be taken as manna from heaven. As a matter of fact, Lee's words are to be taken as the ONLY manna from heaven. This would be a huge enough problem if Witness Lee was someone qualified in person, character, education and reputation to be a leader of an entire movement - the fact that he was unqualified in any of these aspects makes the whole situation very sad and very dangerous for his followers. May God have mercy.
-

Evangelical · 12-15-2016, 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

Jesus did say "by their fruit you shall know them."

But I wouldn't make it black and white. I agree there are many factors involved. But I do think it's hard for hypocrites to pass on Christian sincerity to their children. Children know fakes when they see them.

good response

Koinonia · 12-15-2016, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

No, I was being facetious, which is my response to a 90%/10% figure pulled out of thin air.

As I mentioned before--even LC leaders agonize over the fact that 50% of the young people leave the LC during their high school years (data based on a detailed "census" maintained each year in Southern California). When you consider the number that leave after high school, during college, into young adulthood, etc., the final number that leaves has to be much higher that. Almost no one I grew up with in the LC remains there. And sadly, there are very, very few among those who are any kind of practicing Christian at all.

Ohio · 12-16-2016, 05:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

No, I was being facetious, which is my response to a 90%/10% figure pulled out of thin air.

If it wasn't so sad, I would pad my comments with numerous details and stories.

ZNPaaneah · 12-16-2016, 05:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

Jesus did say "by their fruit you shall know them."

But I wouldn't make it black and white. I agree there are many factors involved. But I do think it's hard for hypocrites to pass on Christian sincerity to their children. Children know fakes when they see them.

I think we all know fakes when we see them. But some people will have a stake in pretending the fake is real, hence they fall into a trap. This happened at Enron. You know it is fake, but your entire net worth is tied up in the sham. As a result you become a slave of sin.

Children growing up in this environment can see it, but are not enslaved to it, so it is much easier for them to leave.

It is like Upton Sinclair said, it is very hard for a man to know the truth when his job is paying him to not know it.

ZNPaaneah · 12-16-2016, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

If it wasn't so sad, I would pad my comments with numerous details and stories.

Why is it sad? Got is not mocked. You reap what you sow.

Ohio · 12-16-2016, 05:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Why is it sad? Got is not mocked. You reap what you sow.

It is sad because I knew so many of these young people who have basically given up on the Lord.

ZNPaaneah · 12-16-2016, 06:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

It is sad because I knew so many of these young people who have basically given up on the Lord.

God deals with us as sons, if He didn't we would be bastards. You get what you pay for. You want to inherit the kingdom, then you should embrace paying the price.

The standard swindle in the world is the idea of getting something for nothing, it is simply a way to swindle sinners enticed by greed and avarice. If you are not willing to pay the price for something then you don't really want it in the first place.

OnHisPath · 12-18-2016, 08:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

So I assume you don't have any Christian books other than just the New Testament. If you do, then this proves that the New Testament is not sufficient for you. That is what I meant by the insufficiency of Paul's writings, not that they themselves lacked anything except deeper and further revelation which others could complete.

The Bible never says it was complete, nor does it say ministry ceased when the Bible was written.

Evangelical, I'm curious about this. If Paul's writings could be in need of "deeper and further revelation which others could complete", do you feel the same is true for Nee and Lee's writings?

The Bible may never say it was complete, but the LC seems to say that Lee's writings/ministry are complete and will end the age. Since the Lord hasn't returned yet, could there be more revelation, ministry and such from believers? I personally don't see any need for more revelation than Christ and Him crucified, but I'm curious your thoughts.

I remember expecting my first child and reading some of Nee's writings having to do with family and child rearing with my in-laws. We read a portion where it was suggested that the whole family should be involved in the punishment of children. After the parents had hit the children's hands with an implement and made them bleed, the siblings should be ready with cloth and water to help tend to the wounds. Kinda freaked me out a bit. As you suggested that Paul didn't write sufficiently for us today, I would suggest that Nee and Lee didn't write sufficiently for us today, either.

Ohio · 12-18-2016, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnHisPath

I remember expecting my first child and reading some of Nee's writings having to do with family and child rearing with my in-laws. We read a portion where it was suggested that the whole family should be involved in the punishment of children. After the parents had hit the children's hands with an implement and made them bleed, the siblings should be ready with cloth and water to help tend to the wounds. Kinda freaked me out a bit. As you suggested that Paul didn't write sufficiently for us today, I would suggest that Nee and Lee didn't write sufficiently for us today, either.

W. Nee obviously never had children of his own. He spoke more from some ancient Chinese customs, than from the Bible.

And to think ... LSM regularly condemns Dr. James Dobson of Focus on the Family. Most of us had to read his books in secret.

Evangelical · 12-18-2016, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnHisPath

Evangelical, I'm curious about this. If Paul's writings could be in need of "deeper and further revelation which others could complete", do you feel the same is true for Nee and Lee's writings? The Bible may never say it was complete, but the LC seems to say that Lee's writings/ministry are complete and will end the age. Since the Lord hasn't returned yet, could there be more revelation, ministry and such from believers?

Well they are complete because they are dead. It doesn't stop anyone else coming along and providing further revelation.

UntoHim · 12-19-2016, 08:41 AM

"further revelation" has gotten false teachers and apostles and their followers in a lot of trouble since the beginning. Most of the time this is because their "further revelation" is untethered from the plain words of the Scriptures, or sometimes the twisting of or misinterpretation of the plain words.

Still other false teachers and apostles claim to be bringing us back to the original or "recovered" interpretations/meanings of the Scriptures. In most cases, this term recovered is nothing more than the wolf of heresy disguised in the sheep's clothing of "further revelation".
-

Igzy · 12-19-2016, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

Well they are complete because they are dead. It doesn't stop anyone else coming along and providing further revelation.

That's not what the Blendeds teach. They said Lee completed the intepretation of Bible. The age of spiritual giants is over, say they, the only thing left to do is follow Lee's teachings to a "T" and "build the Body."

Getting those standing orders going! Buy those books!

Evangelical · 12-19-2016, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

That's not what the Blendeds teach. They said Lee completed the intepretation of Bible. The age of spiritual giants is over, say they, the only thing left to do is follow Lee's teachings to a "T" and "build the Body."

Getting those standing orders going! Buy those books!

I disagree with that because there are still lots of verses in my recovery version that have no foot notes or where the foot notes are very light in specifics.

Igzy · 12-19-2016, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Evangelical

I disagree with that because there are still lots of verses in my recovery version that have no foot notes or where the foot notes are very light in specifics.

Well, that's what they taught, dude. Best deal with it and talk to them about it. I'm just the messenger.

OnHisPath · 12-21-2016, 06:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

That's not what the Blendeds teach. They said Lee completed the intepretation of Bible. The age of spiritual giants is over, say they, the only thing left to do is follow Lee's teachings to a "T" and "build the Body."

Getting those standing orders going! Buy those books!

This is exactly what I remember. There was no room left for other teachers, ministries, etc. It was put forth very clearly that the LC was the complete and final package and the sole move of God on the earth.

ZNPaaneah · 12-21-2016, 06:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnHisPath

This is exactly what I remember. There was no room left for other teachers, ministries, etc. It was put forth very clearly that the LC was the complete and final package and the sole move of God on the earth.

Paul said he had not arrived, even Witness Lee said he had not yet arrived. I guess they should revise their RcV to say that they have arrived.

Freedom · 12-21-2016, 11:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OnHisPath

This is exactly what I remember. There was no room left for other teachers, ministries, etc. It was put forth very clearly that the LC was the complete and final package and the sole move of God on the earth.

Earlier you mentioned Nee's 'advice' on how to discipline children using a form of corporal punishment. These kinds of teachings are the perfect example of why these ministries are not any kind of "final package" to be followed 'absolutely'. Unless LC members are willing to follow Nee's advice and risk getting arrested for child abuse, then it seems they are not really as 'absolute' for the ministry as they claim to be. This highlights a lot of the irony involved in the exclusive use of LSM materials. These kinds of things are still published by LSM and then read among LC members, and while certain things they (hopefully) know not to take seriously, they read these things anyways as if there is some value in reading them. I suspect that the only reason anyone pays any attention to such nonsense like this is because such things came directly from the mouth of the perceived Seer of the Divine Revelation in the Present Age.

Under normal circumstances, if LC members read something by Nee or Lee that they disagreed with, they should have every right to vocalize that disagreement. Instead, they are forced to read things that everyone knows won't be taken seriously, yet they have to keep the disagreement to themselves, and simply 'ignore' things that bother them. Valuable time is wasted reading things of little value. And I'm not saying that Nee or Lee's ministry have no value at all, but because an exclusive use of their ministries has been mandated, the things of little value are mixed in with the things that do have the potential to be helpful, thereby resulting in an ultimate watering down of any potential benefit of these ministries.

Freedom · 12-22-2016, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freedom

Under normal circumstances, if LC members read something by Nee or Lee that they disagreed with, they should have every right to vocalize that disagreement. Instead, they are forced to read things that everyone knows won't be taken seriously, yet they have to keep the disagreement to themselves, and simply 'ignore' things that bother them. Valuable time is wasted reading things of little value. And I'm not saying that Nee or Lee's ministry have no value at all, but because an exclusive use of their ministries has been mandated, the things of little value are mixed in with the things that do have the potential to be helpful, thereby resulting in an ultimate watering down of any potential benefit of these ministries.

I remember attending a home meeting where we read a Nee excerpt in which he went on a rant about casinos/gambling. Obviously, among LC members or Christians in general, you would be hard-pressed to find anyone who would be interested in gambling or patronizing casinos. Therefore, the inevitable question arises, what is the value of reading ministry on that specific topic like that? Towards the end of that meeting, I felt a bit frustrated when trying to think of what I could possibly share as my ‘enjoyment’ from that reading.

In a situation like what I have described, I don’t fault Nee for having ministered on a topic of questionable relevance, rather I fault whoever haphazardly selected the reading material. Unlike Nee’s opinions on discipline children, I don’t find anything objectionable about speaking against casinos or gambling, however, the question in a case like this is how relevant or necessary the topic is. We mustn’t forget that the LC criticizes ministries that focus on subjects like marriage that are indeed relevant to people, however, whenever Nee or Lee went off on some tangent about something hardly relevant to anyone, LC members are expected to just read it without objection or complaint.

I attended enough LC home meetings to know that the part of the meeting where everyone’s attention started to become a bit strained is when it was time to read whatever the assigned material was. I think part of the reason for that was simply that everyone knew that there was little likelihood the reading material would meet any practical need. Again, the inability to identify with the subject of the ministry material at hand doesn’t necessary fault the ministry itself, but how it is being utilized. The LC likes to do everything in a cookie-cutter fashion. It is assumed that anything Nee or Lee taught is relevant to any situation at any point in time.

As far as I’m concerned, the root of the problem is related to how LC leaders have attempted to utilize and promote the ministries of Nee and Lee. I’m not aware of anyone on this forum who has claimed that Nee and Lee didn’t any positive aspects to their ministries. But the pressing question is why, despite the seemingly positive aspects of either or both ministries, that both ministries remain largely irrelevant and suspect to the general Christian public? I would say that by strongly and haphazardly promoting anything related to these ministries, LC leaders have successfully caused many people to see the questionable or irrelevant aspects of either ministry instead of anything potentially beneficial. At the present, it seems LC members are also beginning to experience the same kind of disconnect with these ministries.

Ohio · 12-23-2016, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freedom

I remember attending a home meeting where we read a Nee excerpt in which he went on a rant about casinos/gambling. Obviously, among LC members or Christians in general, you would be hard-pressed to find anyone who would be interested in gambling or patronizing casinos. Therefore, the inevitable question arises, what is the value of reading ministry on that specific topic like that? Towards the end of that meeting, I felt a bit frustrated when trying to think of what I could possibly share as my ‘enjoyment’ from that reading.

IIRC, that message was part of a series of books, "Do All to the Glory of God," in a section on recreation and playing games. Nee felt we should never play games of chance, a very extreme view, and only play games of skill. He did not differentiate between casino gambling and home games, nor did he differentiate between playing for fun and playing for money. I remember thinking, "chess good, monopoly bad."

How could a family game using chance, i.e. the rolling of dice, be bad for Christians? Playing games is a great family activity, especially for Christians. It's real hard for old and young to play games like Scrabble together, and rolling dice becomes a great equalizer. Nee didn't think so.

ZNPaaneah · 12-23-2016, 05:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

IIRC, that message was part of a series of books, "Do All to the Glory of God," in a section on recreation and playing games. Nee felt we should never play games of chance, a very extreme view, and only play games of skill. He did not differentiate between casino gambling and home games, nor did he differentiate between playing for fun and playing for money. I remember thinking, "chess good, monopoly bad."

How could a family game using chance, i.e. the rolling of dice, be bad for Christians? Playing games is a great family activity, especially for Christians. It's real hard for old and young to play games like Scrabble together, and rolling dice becomes a great equalizer. Nee didn't think so.

It is also completely impractical. All business decisions are a game of chance. All career decisions are a game of chance. Is a game of cards gambling or skill? Obviously gambling when you are looking at those who are addicts and have blown their life savings. Obviously skill when you are talking about Warren Buffet playing bridge.

Every year I have to decide what the best use of my time is for my students to get the maximum benefit, if I make a mistake I will find out at the end of the year. Therefore I use a lot of statistical analysis, almost on a daily basis, to determine what the best use of my time is. It is a gamble. Like all gambling, knowledge is power, the better your information, the better your decisions. Figuring this out is not that different from the process a Bridge player goes through in order to bid.

This was one of those things that WN taught that I quietly decided to discard while still in the LRC. Gambling can be an addiction, like alcohol, so it is better when you are talking to a church of thousands to be concerned with those who are former addicts. But, it is also something that is necessary and useful, so what you do privately, let each be persuaded in his own conscience.

UntoHim · 12-23-2016, 08:27 AM

Former Local Church member, Philip van Dijk of the Netherlands, recently produced this polemic regarding the One Publication Document.

COMMENTS ON THE ONE PUBLICATION DOCUMENT PRODUCED BY THE BLENDED BROTHERS OF LIVING STREAM MINISTRY ON 30 JUNE 2005
By Philip van Dijk
21 December 2016

The blended brothers of Living Stream Ministry's fixation with using only one publication, only one evangelistic method, only one gold bar translation i.e. the Recovery Version of the Bible etc. as a testimony for others outside the Lord's Recovery had becoming increasingly clearer in my mind and in my spirit after reading through their document at www.lsm.org/onepublication:
The following words are found in Paul's and Sosthenes' first letter to the Corinthians:
'... Now there are different gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are different ministries, but the same Lord. And there are different results, but the same God who produces all of them in everyone. To each person the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the benefit of all ...' (NET)
From the above mentioned passage these brothers revealed that there are different ministries (i.e. kinds of service) within the body of Christ and not that there is only one ministry as claimed within the above mentioned document.
The New Covenant Scriptures are completely silent concerning what believers publish in writing regarding their one faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
After rereading the document, I was immediately struck by the following texts, that had not struck me the first time when I had read it, as being indeed seriously questionable:
'... In a meeting with the brothers to whom he committed the responsibility for Living Stream Ministry, Brother Lee said, “My burden is for the recovery based on the interpretation of Brother Nee and me. I am the continuation of Brother Nee; I would like to have a continuation of me, and this needs a corporation ... The Living Stream corporation will continue this ministry” (from unpublished notes of a meeting of Living Stream, July 12, 1996). He placed the direction of this corporation for the continuation and publication of the ministry in the hands of a group of blended brothers, who labor to fulfill this charge before the Lord ...'
'... In every way, this practice of passing everything that we publish through a discerning check is best for all of us and best for the sounding of the one trumpet in the Lord’s recovery today …'

(1) What really bugged me after rereading the document was: Where is the Headship and the Lordship of our Lord Jesus Christ Himself in this specific recovery if it truly belongs to Him and Him alone?
(2) If the Lord's Recovery is, as our brother Witness Lee claims, nothing more than a burden based on an interpretation of Watchman Nee and himself, then is this recovery maybe nothing more than another institutional denomination, something this recovery of the Lord vehemently sought to depart from in the first place?
(3) Isn't an institutional denomination just another word for a corporation with a religious agenda and (a) human founder(s) other than Jesus Christ Himself?
(4) So, if all literature published by Living Stream Ministry is the sounding of the one and only trumpet for this present-day Lord's Recovery, are these 2 entities then not one and the same thing in reality?

There were more comments about the document that seemed more intriguing and insightful than I had previously thought:
'... He [Watchman Nee] asked me to help in the publication work. I [Witness Lee] did write some books, among which were a book on the genealogy of Christ, a translation of part of Pember's Earth's Earliest Ages, and some books on the kingdom of the heavens. I [Witness Lee] never published anything by myself ...'

Isn't Witness Lee only stating the obvious by claiming that he never published anything by himself? Watchman Nee had actually asked him to help with the publication work in the first place! Aren't these just basic circular statements?

'... I [Witness Lee] always mailed my manuscript to the Gospel Room, which was under Brother Nee and his helper. It was up to their discernment whether my manuscript should be published or not. I [Witness Lee] liked to have my writings checked as to whether there might be some inaccuracy in the truth. It is not a small matter to write a book that expounds the kingdom of the heavens. I liked my material to pass through their [Watchman Nee and brother Yu] checking. This helped and protected me. Brother Yu, the eye specialist, translated some of the mystical books, but he did not publish anything ...'

Here again, Witness Lee seems to be making more and more circular statements, for want of a better terminology. By mentioning that he (Witness Lee) then mailed manuscripts to Watchman Nee and brother Yu, because it was really Watchman Nee's publication, then claiming that he (Witness Lee) liked to have his contribution to the publication work checked because they (Watchman Nee and/or brother Yu) did not just publish anything etc. ...

'... We only had one publication. Everything was published through Brother Nee's Gospel Room because the publication is really the trumpeting. The sounding of our trumpet is not just in the verbal message but more in the publication. It bothers me that some brothers among us still put out publications ...'

Suddenly the publication work had become something far more than a publication work alone: It had become the sounding of a trumpet! Witness Lee even mentions that their (Watchman Nee's and Witness Lee's) trumpeting of the apostles' teaching had more prominence than their verbal speaking of the apostles' teaching.

But wait a minute, didn't Paul, Silvanus and Timothy mention in their first letter to the Thessalonians and didn't Paul and Sosthenes also mention in their first letter to the Corinthians
'... For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first ...' and '... in a moment, in the blinking of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed …' (NET)
that any trumpeting would be God's trumpeting when the Lord Jesus Christ returns for collecting His beautiful bride for Himself?

Regarding the previously cited sentence within the document:
'... In every way, this practice of passing everything that we publish through a discerning check is best for all of us and best for the sounding of the one trumpet in the Lord’s recovery today ...'

Are we having to make a choice between:
(1) the sounding of the trumpet as legislated by Living Stream Ministry and
(2) the sounding of the trumpet of God when the Lord returns for His beautiful bride?

Also, regarding the sounding of a trumpet mentioned in Paul's and Sosthenes' first letter to the Corinthians:
'... Now, brothers and sisters, if I come to you speaking in tongues, how will I help you unless I speak to you with a revelation or with knowledge or prophecy or teaching? It is similar for lifeless things that make a sound, like a flute or harp. Unless they make a distinction in the notes, how can what is played on the flute or harp be understood? If, for example, the trumpet makes an unclear sound, who will get ready for battle? It is the same for you. If you do not speak clearly with your tongue, how will anyone know what is being said? For you will be speaking into the air. There are probably many kinds of languages in the world, and none is without meaning. If then I do not know the meaning of a language, I will be a foreigner to the speaker and the speaker a foreigner to me. It is the same with you. Since you are eager for manifestations of the Spirit, seek to abound in order to strengthen the church ...' (NET)

Yet, the context of the trumpet in the above mentioned passage seems to be conveying that:
(1) just as believers are to understand (with their mind and their spirit) when a revelation, knowledge a prophecy or a teaching is being spoken, so too
(2) a harp and a flute needs to produce a distinctive note or melody and
(3) a trumpet needs to make a clear sound so that an army understands when to prepare for war.

Therefore, the clear sounding of a trumpet in this context does not seem to convey that the saints are called to be restricted to one ministry or even to one publication for that matter!
Even the word teaching in the above mentioned context is being referred to as a teaching that is to be understood and not that the oneness of the teaching itself is implied in this instance.

'... According to my [Witness Lee] truthful observation there is no new light or life supply there. They may contain some biblical doctrines, but any point of life or light has been adopted from the publications of Living Stream Ministry. There is nearly no item of life or light that has not been covered by our publications [Isn't this just a presumption?]. Based upon this fact, what is the need for these brothers to put out their publications? [Are we not free in Christ to do so?] Because all the publications are mine [So, it's really about ownership then?], it is hard for me to speak such a word. But I am forced to tell the truth. By putting out your own publication, you waste your time and money. You waste the money given by the saints, and you waste their time in reading what you publish. Where is the food, the life supply, and the real enlightenment in the other publications among us? [This is really going quite far, isn't it?] Be assured that there is definitely at least one major revelation in every Living Stream Ministry publication [Isn't this just a presumption?] .... If the Lord can gain ten thousand saints in the United States to go full-time with one kind of teaching, one kind of preaching, one kind of material, one kind of publication, one kind of way, and everything one kind, this will be our morale! The wise way is that we all take the full-time way and speak the same thing, think the same thing, present the same thing, and teach the same thing, having the same essence, appearance and expression. Then we will have the morale, the impact, to defeat the enemy. [Is this of the same essence regarding the oneness of the Spirit that Jesus prayed for before His crucifixion and which Paul appealed to in his letter to the Ephesians?] This is what the Lord needs! ...' [Witness Lee, Elders' Training, Book 8: The Life-pulse of the Lord's Present Move, pp. 161-164, 123-127]

What I have come to establish for myself is that in literally everything where one shared one's life in Christ, ministered His life with others etc. in the fellowship, one had to have it routinely filtered through the writings of Living Stream Ministry.
This filtering system had become the ultimate lockdown for me and eventually explained for me why my own previous attempts at discussing organic body life in Christ outside this filtering system were not being answered or were answered by answers such as '… go and read Witness Lee's Recovery Version footnotes, his Life Studies etc. about this …'
These dear fellow saints in the Lord's Recovery seem to have little individual conviction on what the Scriptures are revealing to themselves, but more specifically on the pertinent issues that I had questions on. This probably explains their regular reliance on the writings of Living Stream Ministry for having it revealed to them instead.

Philip van Dijk
Skype: philipvdijk
LinkedIn: https://nl.linkedin.com/in/philipvdijk

aron · 12-23-2016, 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Living Stream Ministry

'... In a meeting with the brothers to whom he committed the responsibility for Living Stream Ministry, Brother Lee said, “My burden is for the recovery based on the interpretation of Brother Nee and me. I am the continuation of Brother Nee; I would like to have a continuation of me, and this needs a corporation ... The Living Stream corporation will continue this ministry"

The living stream ministry is a corporation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philip van Dijk

If the Lord's Recovery is, as our brother Witness Lee claims, nothing more than a burden based on an interpretation of Watchman Nee and himself, then is this recovery maybe nothing more than another institutional denomination, something this recovery of the Lord vehemently sought to depart from in the first place?

The only way the interpretation equals the basis of the 'recovered' assembly is if the interpreter is given cosmic, oracular status. The interpreter is God's sole designated mouthpiece. The writing of the New Testament conveys none of this. In fact it repeatedly conveys the opposite.

And when God's so-called oracle is given untouchable status, the basis of the interpretation as being culturally-mediated seems quite clear.

Igzy · 12-23-2016, 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aron

And when God's so-called oracle is given untouchable status, the basis of the interpretation as being culturally-mediated seems quite clear.

One thing that always strikes me about the people in the LCM is that the way they use the term "Lord's Recovery" in an equivocating manner. Sometimes, apparently, without even realizing it.

Van Dijk brushes up against this insight but never quite gets it.

On the one hand Lee talked about the "Recovery" as if it is God's pure unique "move." On the other hand he talked about it as something he (Lee) should be able to control like a captain controls a ship. Certainly there is no precedent in the NT age for anyone to be given such power. Even Paul didn't have it.

It's one thing for a leader to presume to direct his church or ministry, it's a completely different thing for him to presume to direct God's very move. God's move is God's alone. He alone leads it and is entitled to change its direction, to appoint other representatives, to bless ministries, to raise up workers from stones, to inspire new insights--all without our counsel or even notifying us.

So for Lee or anyone else to say the "Recovery" should do this or the "Recovery" should do that is simply to verify that the "Recovery" is not God's move but rather simply an organization of human beings.

Van Dijk like many LCMers, despite his insights, still seems confused about this.

OBW · 12-23-2016, 11:01 AM

One of the biggest flaws in the logic and teaching of Lee and the LRC is that there is something called God's flow that is smaller than all that Christians are doing on the earth through the leading and power of the Holy Spirit.

God's flow includes every speaking of the gospel, from fire-and-brimstone preachers to simple homilies in any of the liturgical traditions. It includes the righteous living of His followers as they demonstrate something worthy of note in the world, even when there is nothing spoken. If Christians are in obedience, then God is flowing. In every thing that they do. From washing the dishes to going to the far reaches of the earth to evangelize those who have never heard of Jesus.

ZNPaaneah · 12-23-2016, 01:13 PM

It bothers me that some brothers among us still put out publications. According to my truthful observation there is no new light or life supply there. They may contain some biblical doctrines, but any point of life or light has been adopted from the publications of Living Stream Ministry. There is nearly no item of life or light that has not been covered by our publications. Based upon this fact, what is the need for these brothers to put out their publications? Because all the publications are mine, it is hard for me to speak such a word. But I am forced to tell the truth. By putting out your own publication, you waste your time and money. You waste the money given by the saints, and you waste their time in reading what you publish. Where is the food, the life supply, and the real enlightenment in the other publications among us? Be assured that there is definitely at least one major revelation in every Living Stream Ministry publication. (ELDERS' TRAINING, BOOK 08: THE LIFE-PULSE OF THE LORD'S PRESENT MOVE, Chapter 11, Section 2, Witness Lee)

I am glad that Witness Lee gave us a truthful observation, it does reveal what he felt. It is certainly judgmental "no new light or life supply there". I kind of wonder who forced him to tell the truth, because if we knew how to do that we might have found out some other things as well.

When I read his word "by putting out your own publication you waste your time and money. You waste the money given by the saints, and you waste their time in reading what you publish" I am reminded of the Lord's word "judge not lest ye be judged, for with what judgement you judge you shall be judged.

Igzy · 12-23-2016, 04:42 PM

To me the Lee quote that ZNP just provided can be summed up simply as: "This is not God's thing, it's my thing."

least · 12-23-2016, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

It's one thing for a leader to presume to direct his church or ministry, it's a completely different thing for him to presume to direct God's very move. God's move is God's alone. He alone leads it and is entitled to change its direction, to appoint other representatives, to bless ministries, to raise up workers from stones, to inspire new insights--all without our counsel or even notifying us.

Yup.
it's a completely different thing for him to presume to direct God's very move. God's move is God's alone.

aron · 12-23-2016, 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by least

(2) If the Lord's Recovery is, as our brother Witness Lee claims, nothing more than a burden based on an interpretation of Watchman Nee and himself, then is this recovery maybe nothing more than another institutional denomination, something this recovery of the Lord vehemently sought to depart from in the first place?

If the Lord's Recovery is a burden based on an interpretation, what happens when I come along with another interpretation, like the ekklesia was so local that it was a meeting? There was not 'non-gathered' ekklesia? It could be dispersed? There could be ekklesia in homes, boats, on mountaintops, several or even hundreds simultaneously occurring in one single large metropolitan city? What happens if I or anyone else for that matter has a revelation from God's word?

But it wasn't the Revelation of Nee. So it doesn't count. All of which shows that indeed the Lord's Recovery is based on one man's interpretation. One man's interpretation, another man's marketing of that interpretation, and a corporation claiming sovereignty over the marketing of that interpretation.

ZNPaaneah · 12-23-2016, 07:15 PM

When Paul writes about the gifts of the members of the Body, he begins by speaking of “dumb idols.” … In verse 2 Paul reminds them that when they were of the nations, of the Gentiles, they were “led away to dumb idols.” Here Paul does not say they were led away to sins, lusts, or the world; he says that they were led away to dumb idols, in whatever way they were led. No matter by what way they were led, they were led to dumb idols. Paul's use of the adjective “dumb” implies that both the idols and those who worship them are dumb, unable to speak…. But after coming to believe in Christ, they are now worshippers of the living God.

It is by speaking that we prove that we are living. Our God is living. The Bible reveals that our living God is the speaking God. Throughout the centuries, especially in this New Testament age, God has been speaking…. Because the God whom we worship is the living and speaking God, we also speak and thereby prove that we are the living members of the Body of Christ. (Witness Lee, Life-Study of 1 Corinthians, Chapter 57, Section 2)

This doctrine of "one trumpet" is merely the leading the saints away to dumb idols.

Igzy · 12-24-2016, 07:12 AM

The fact that Lee tried to lead the "Recovery" proves the "Recovery" was just his movement. The "Recovery" is not God's move. If it was, no one would be trying to lead it but God.

Note the history of the "Recovery" as told by Lee: God raised up people in his good time to "recover" certain truths. But in all instances prior to Nee and Lee, these people did not consider themselves in some special move. They were simply following the Lord. But as Nee came along and especially with Lee, they began to presume to represent God's move and even to have some say in its direction. The "Recovery" thus became self-conscious and self-directing. Put simply, men presumed to take control of it.

Whether God's move was ever embodied in the "Recovery" prior to Nee and Lee is really not the point. The point is once Nee and Lee presumed to be it and to lead it they reduced whatever it was to simply their own movement. And that's what the "Recovery" is today, nothing but a movement of human beings. Do they have God's presence at some level? Sure, as do thousands of other collections of Christians.

God continues to move, of course, as he always has, completely unobligated to play by Lee's rules or anyone else's. He who sits in the heavens shall laugh, at me, you, Lee, and anyone else who gets too big for their britches.

Igzy · 12-24-2016, 07:18 AM

So to put it as simply as possible, once leaders of a group say it represents God in an exclusive way, they guarantee it does not.

ZNPaaneah · 12-24-2016, 07:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

The fact that Lee tried to lead the "Recovery" proves the "Recovery" was just his movement. The "Recovery" is not God's move. If it was, no one would be trying to lead it but God.

Good point. Witness Lee and the Blendeds justify following so called leaders because they are following Christ. But here they show their true colors. They say they follow Witness Lee because he follows Christ, but in actuality they are simply following Witness Lee. That is what makes them "special".

What makes God's people truly a "peculiar treasure" is that they are not puffed up, they are not special, they are not sitting in the chief seat, rather they are the offscouring of the world.

Igzy · 12-24-2016, 08:25 AM

This discussion brings to light the LCM's hypocrisy about hierarchies as well.

LCMers love to say the LCM is not a hierarchy and that all hierarchies in the Church are invalid.

But what is their determination of whether a person is in proper relation with God?

It's whether that person is in proper relation to their leadership hierarchy.

If a person submits the leadership hierarchy of the "Recovery" then the group regards him or her as properly in God's move. Only then can any work he or she does be regarded as genuine.

If a person does not submit the leadership hierarchy of the "Recovery", he or she is regarded as out of line with God's move. Even though it might appear God is working through someone not in line with the "Recovery" hierarchy, that person and his or her work are disregarded.

Thus alignment with the LCM leadership hierarchy is their absolute test for spiritual validity, all while claiming they have no hierarchy.

By this standard they define God's move by their leadership hierarchy (something they claim does not even exist). They are effectively one and the same. God's hands are tied. He must go through them. Anything else will be categorically rejected. But since the leader at the top of the hierarchy (Lee) has passed on leaving his words set in stone, no further recovery is even possible. Thus "Recovery" becomes an ironic misnomer.

aron · 12-24-2016, 09:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Igzy

Whether God's move was ever embodied in the "Recovery" prior to Nee and Lee is really not the point. The point is once Nee and Lee presumed to be it and to lead it they reduced whatever it was to simply their own movement.

Whatever basis God had to function on earth before that point, now was supposedly reduced to Nee's interpretation of God's move. Anything else was by definition removed. The One Trumpet edict simply codified what had been understood in the LC, all along.

Quote:

Originally Posted by OBW

One of the biggest flaws in the logic and teaching of Lee and the LRC is that there is something called God's flow that is smaller than all that Christians are doing on the earth through the leading and power of the Holy Spirit.

God's flow includes every speaking of the gospel, from fire-and-brimstone preachers to simple homilies in any of the liturgical traditions. It includes the righteous living of His followers as they demonstrate something worthy of note in the world, even when there is nothing spoken. If Christians are in obedience, then God is flowing. .

There was a sister in the late '60s named Kathryn Kuhlman, and I saw a gathering of young people once at Calvary Chapel where she was in the meeting; all the freaks and hippies with long hair and beards and beads, ending every third sentence with "man", and the conservative Christian establishment was averse. Who are these people?

But Kuhlman's message was simple, two words: "Welcome home". What power. Don't try to tell me the Lord's spirit wasn't there.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gCvH9NOTSzw

Of course there were failures abounding. Many stumbled and fell. But the core of the gospel message is there: that we are all deformed, fallen; that Jesus is the way - repent, believe and be saved. That core message was there, and by God's mercy thousands came in, and Lee in Anaheim benefitted enormously from it all. And then he presumed to channel it exclusively, and his befogged disciples created a corporation presuming to exclusively market God's revelation on earth. One Trumpet was merely the formalization, the fossilization, of a long-established LC understanding. In Lee's words, a consummation.

ZNPaaneah · 12-25-2016, 06:58 PM

The most damaging and dangerous situation for a cult or false prophet is a member that only has one lord, Jesus Christ.

I used to think, "why do they care so much about other publications, most of these are non profit, what they publish is essentially free" just like no one has to pay to read or participate in this forum. But that is what is so dangerous. Siphoning money from 10,000 saints is how those in the administration of LSM get their salaries. The most damaging "competition" is from those who "freely received and freely give", that is something they have no way to compete with.

If you do not align yourself with the leadership hierarchy (and if the local hierarchy does not align itself with the LSM hierarchy) then they will treat that as the most serious attack on them, while at the same time winking at idolatry and fornication among the leadership.

OBW · 12-26-2016, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

It bothers me that some brothers among us still put out publications. According to my truthful observation there is no new light or life supply there. They may contain some biblical doctrines, but any point of life or light has been adopted from the publications of Living Stream Ministry.

And there is one of the biggest problems with the LRC. They have this thing they call light and life that trumps actual teachings in the Bible. Doesn't matter if the Bible teaches it. If they don't get a good feeling from it, it's out.

Thanks for finding that quote.

Freedom · 12-31-2016, 04:17 PM

I came across a Facebook post and apparently LSM made a big deal about purchasing and reading their publications during their winter training. Here is their latest gimmick:
The following are display/library sets offered as packages by the Living Stream Ministry with the purpose of providing churches or individuals with a set of Living Stream publications for physical display and sale of ministry material or to serve as a library for loaning out to individuals. For ordering, please contact us directly.
https://www.livingstream.com/en/49-d...brary-packages

The 'comprehensive' package is only $4524

. It's sad to think that all the LC members who sacrifice their hard earned dollars and vacation time go all the way to Anaheim only to be subjected to LSM's latest sales pitch. They don't even realize what is happening either. If LSM makes a point encouraging people to read and buy their books, LC members think it's for good reason, without questioning it. The vast majority of LSM's publications are readily available to read online for free, so if people really wanted to read them that bad, they would. It's really that simple.

Apparently LSM thinks an increased physical presence of their books in meeting halls and homes is going to result in more sales. They couldn't be more wrong. If nothing else, they better pick more exciting cover art for their books.

UntoHim · 12-31-2016, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freedom

Apparently LSM thinks an increased physical presence of their books in meeting halls and homes is going to result in more sales. They couldn't be more wrong. If nothing else, they better pick more exciting cover art for their books.

Does THIS look like $4,524.58 worth of "riches" to you?
But wait...there's more....does it include those compressed wood bookcases?
-

Koinonia · 12-31-2016, 08:22 PM

I also saw these posts on Facebook showing a giant video screen advertising these ridiculous library sets as well as other books and book packages.

This has to bother some people.

Freedom · 01-01-2017, 07:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koinonia

I also saw these posts on Facebook showing a giant video screen advertising these ridiculous library sets as well as other books and book packages.

This has to bother some people.

I’m sure that some people are bothered. The question is whether they are willing to speak out, or if they simply shrug it off. I’m afraid that the latter is the standard response. It doesn’t come as a complete surprise though, because I think LC members are accustomed to being pressured with whatever they latest promotion is. They know that if they ignore it, it will go away once the next gimmick starts making its rounds in the LC.

What I find striking though, is that is seems that the LSM is no longer that interested in putting much effort into disguising their intentions. In the past, it seems they at least wanted to hide behind some teaching (like the “one publication”), but now they are simply trying to increase sales by telling everyone that they should read more ministry books (as if LC members don't already read enough LSM publications). The fact that they are publicly advertising these book sets along with the different price points doesn’t really do a good job at ‘hiding’ anything. Anyone willing to be honest with themselves can easily tell what’s going on.

The only ones fooled are those who are opening their wallets and buying books that they don't need.

Freedom · 01-03-2017, 11:18 AM

As I see it, LSM is definitely taking a big risk by doing what they're doing. LC members sacrifice vacation time and money to attend trainings based on a perception that by traveling to Anaheim, they will be part of the "up-to-date speaking." They feel that nothing else could be a better use of time. As such, there is already the understanding that the training will be used to release the latest 'burden', so I think they are more or less prepared whatever the latest thing is that LSM is trying to sell or pressure people with. The real issue, however, is how well they can sell their gimmicks and make it seem legitimate. When I attended the semi-annual trainings, it was in the mid-2000s and they were talking about the GLA quarantine and the “one publication.” It seemed reasonable that they wanted to 'warn' everyone about the problem, so I didn't read too much into it at the time. I did question the relevance of what was being spoken, as I had no clue to any of the people involved in the scuffle, but I didn't question the larger relevancy. I just assumed that most others knew things that I didn't (but I now seriously doubt that this was the case).

At any rate, the point I'm getting at here is that by using their trainings and conferences to promote gimmicky things, LSM risks alienating some of those who would otherwise attend. Before I had any LC-specific concerns or came to this forum, I stopped attending the LSM trainings. It wasn't because I didn't want to go and be part of the 'environment', it was because I realized that there was little point in attending. I realized that I didn’t need to hear all the special ‘fellowship’ that seemed to make it’s way into the trainings. Also, I realized that the church would eventually cover the material from the training anyways (in the HWFMR). Eventually, I came to realize that the material being covered was also questionable, but that wasn't what initially prompted me to avoid the trainings, it was the way the time was being utilized.

I would suspect that at least some LC members get frustrated over such things. It's kind of a slap in the face to get confronted with a sales pitch after paying an exorbitant training fee + flight + hotel (I recall that LSM started limiting who they would provide hospitality for). I think LSM is walking on thin ice with what they're trying to do. But that is their problem, not anyone else’s problem. For so long, they have been disdainful towards any notion that there would cease to be an unwavering demand for what they have to offer. Now that interest is waning in a noticeable way, the LSM is scrambling to find a solution. It seems they are willing to take risks.

Koinonia · 02-06-2017, 11:14 AM

Living Stream Ministry
2431 W. La Palma Ave.
Anaheim, CA 92801

PO Box 2121
Anaheim, CA 92814

September 30, 2016

Dear Brothers,

For some time, we have been burdened about encouraging the saints to read ministry publications. In 2013, we released some excerpts from Brother Lee’s speaking on the burden and importance of the matter. He said: “I hope that all the churches in all the localities, which have received the supply in the Lord’s word from this ministry, will do their best to help the publication of the ministry…We want to encourage the brothers and sisters to build up the habit of reading spiritual books.” He hoped that the elders in each locality would “give the saints some help and encouragement so that each household would have a supply of spiritual books.” He charged us to lead the saints to have “a proper attitude to be positive and aggressive, doing our best to urge people to read His word.” He also said,

Quote:

If we have a clear view and know the Bible, the condition of today’s Christianity, the truth, and the mercy given to us by God, we would spend our whole life being immersed and soaked in the truth. Then we would surely have the burden to propagate this truth as much as possible among the brothers and sisters in the churches. We would endeavor to create among the brothers and the sisters an atmosphere of desiring the truth and the Life-studies…I hope that we could all learn to appreciate the Life-studies by diving into them, bathing in them, and allowing the light of the truth to penetrate us. Only then will we be able to spread the blessings and benefits that we have received, thereby creating an atmosphere in which the saints desire the truth and the Life-studies.

The Lord’s word will require that we bear the responsibility to labor willingly to zealously encourage and urge everyone in all the local churches to pursue the truth and read the spiritual publications. In this way the Lord’s truth will spread widely, and there will be a revival.

If all the six hundred churches on the earth would seriously read the Life-studies and thoroughly study the truths contained in them, I absolutely believe that a great revival would begin not only among us but even on the whole earth.

We should help the saints to build up a practice or habit that every day they would spend at least thirty minutes in the Word…I think we need to remind them week after week, and sometimes the elders need to give the saints some direction, some encouragement, and some incentive.

Moreover, we recently found the following quotation from page 163 of The Economy of God and the Mystery of the Transmission of the Divine Trinity regarding Brother Lee’s view concerning the publications.

Quote:

I hope that we could live to be eighty or ninety, even to over a hundred, so that we might be able to see the fulfillment of all that we have fellowshipped today. I wish to live on this earth and witness with my own eyes the truth of the Lord not only being printed into books through our hands, but also being sent through us to every part of the world and prevailing in every place. I absolutely believe that this will hasten the Lord’s return because it is through this that the Lord will prepare His bride. I hope that we can all see the manifestation of such a situation.

North American Elders

Based on the above words, we hope that you will fellowship about this matter among the saints. In particular, we hope that you will devote a devote a dedicated time to share this burden to the whole church. Jim Miller, Steve Watts, and Michio Miyake are quite burdened to help carry out this burden among us. We have proposed that the brothers visit the churches to fellowship more in depth about this burden. The brothers will be contacting you soon. We hope that you will arrange a time for these brothers to share with the elders and the saints the importance of this reading habit. This can be done over a weekend, or during a blending time of the churches in your region, or any time convenient to you.

May the Lord bless His recovery through His rich supply in His ministry and through the cooperation of the saints.

Your brothers,
Benson Philips, Ray Graver, Andrew Yu

Koinonia · 03-23-2017, 08:02 PM

VIDEO: Revitalized Book Service in a Rented Meeting Place - The Church in Ontario, CA.

Encouraging the Saints to Build Up the Habit of Reading

We also want to encourage the brothers and sisters to build up the habit of reading spiritual books after every meal and before going to bed. They will gain a great benefit from reading in this way.

Finding Ways to Promote the Truth

We must have a proper attitude and be positive and aggressive, doing our best to urge people to read His word. If we do not find ways to promote the truth or pray, how can the Lord’s word be spread? If we take the Lord’s word lightly, how can we have boldness to promote the publications among the saints? (CWWL, 1984, vol. 5, “The Faithful and Diligent Spreading of the Truth", pp. 189‐190, 207)

Freedom · 03-24-2017, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koinonia

VIDEO: Revitalized Book Service in a Rented Meeting Place - The Church in Ontario, CA.

Encouraging the Saints to Build Up the Habit of Reading

We also want to encourage the brothers and sisters to build up the habit of reading spiritual books after every meal and before going to bed. They will gain a great benefit from reading in this way.

Finding Ways to Promote the Truth

We must have a proper attitude and be positive and aggressive, doing our best to urge people to read His word. If we do not find ways to promote the truth or pray, how can the Lord’s word be spread? If we take the Lord’s word lightly, how can we have boldness to promote the publications among the saints? (CWWL, 1984, vol. 5, “The Faithful and Diligent Spreading of the Truth", pp. 189‐190, 207)

When you look at the way things are worded, phrases like "boldness to promote the publications" seem to stick out. If WL's ministry is so 'rich', why would it need to be promoted? Why would there be such need to encourage people to read it? By contrast people should be running to it, if it were everything it was claimed to be.

Everything about these types of promotions suggests there is some kind of underlying resistance or reluctance to read LSM books (which we know to be true), so to me, it exposes what a big sham it really is. If someone wants to read WL's books, then fine, go for it. But why do people need to be pressured or prodded to do so?

The fact that they have to 'promote' a basic interest in certain aspects of the LCM, basically defeats everything they think the LCM stands for. Maybe if they could bring themselves to admit that much there could be change, but that is unlikely.

Ohio · 03-24-2017, 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freedom

When you look at the way things are worded, phrases like "boldness to promote the publications" seem to stick out. If WL's ministry is so 'rich', why would it need to be promoted? Why would there be such need to encourage people to read it? By contrast people should be running to it, if it were everything it was claimed to be.

I distinctly remember one training, II Corinthians, where WL unloaded heavy guilt upon all the trainees for insufficiently promoting his ministry, and thus opening the door for opposition voices to be heard across the land. Remember at that time LSM was engaged in lawsuits against Mindbenders and Godmen Thus the problem of being misrepresented by the Christian public was never WL's, because of his own aberrant teachings and practices, but the hearers' inability to properly and adequately promote his ministry as spiritual salesmen or women.

And that's the problem in Lee-land. It's everyone else's problem, but not Lee himself, because neither he nor his teachings could be anything but God-ordained and Spirit-anointed. And that includes such notables as LinKo, DayStar, and tennis rackets. At least the Papal Infallibility Doctrine was limited to matters of faith or morals. Lee's Infallibility in practice also included his two sons, Timothy and Philip.

askseek · 03-24-2017, 03:51 PM

This is an interesting thread. Just seeing it for the first time today.

Some thoughts:

* young people leaving Christianity will likely continue to rise accross the board -- I say this because of the Internet, where atheists have a very loud voice, and overall trends of society becoming more secularized.

* I was in FTT for a time, and many of the trainees weren't that healthy in terms of attitude or practice. A large percentage go because of obligation/pressure. Not a good motive for successful training, even though the trainers themselves (Blendeds) seemed to think just getting them there is the main thing, then good things will happen.

* Haven't read anything of WL in a decade and gave away my box of books (almost entirely from FTT) years ago.

Freedom · 03-24-2017, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

And that's the problem in Lee-land. It's everyone else's problem, but not Lee himself, because neither he nor his teachings could be anything but God-ordained and Spirit-anointed. And that includes such notables as LinKo, DayStar, and tennis rackets. At least the Papal Infallibility Doctrine was limited to matters of faith or morals. Lee's Infallibility in practice also included his two sons, Timothy and Philip.

I heard someone state that a LSM book they were reading wasn't helpful. Guess how an elder responded to that? He told the person that the reason they weren't finding Lee's book helpful was because they weren't reading it with someone else.

It amazes me how they cannot even admit for a second to the possibility that even small portions Lee's ministry might not be helpful to some people.

Freedom · 03-24-2017, 04:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by askseek

* young people leaving Christianity will likely continue to rise accross the board -- I say this because of the Internet, where atheists have a very loud voice, and overall trends of society becoming more secularized.

* I was in FTT for a time, and many of the trainees weren't that healthy in terms of attitude or practice. A large percentage go because of obligation/pressure. Not a good motive for successful training, even though the trainers themselves (Blendeds) seemed to think just getting them there is the main thing, then good things will happen.

* Haven't read anything of WL in a decade and gave away my box of books (almost entirely from FTT) years ago.

IMO, the blendeds are clueless when it comes to the needs of young people. Most I know who attended the FTT, had no desire to go, right up until the time when they were supposedly 'led' to go. And most had absolutely zero interest prior in reading LSM books or the Bible.

Terry · 03-25-2017, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Does THIS look like $4,524.58 worth of "riches" to you?
But wait...there's more....does it include those compressed wood bookcases?
-

I know there are ones who look at the publication purchases as "service". From what I've seen in homes, you'll find bookcases of LSM publications in the living room and in a side room where a home office is, you'll find a bookcase of help books of family and marriage. It implies to me the LSM publications is for image while help book is where the real needs are.

Terry · 03-25-2017, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koinonia

As I mentioned before--even LC leaders agonize over the fact that 50% of the young people leave the LC during their high school years (data based on a detailed "census" maintained each year in Southern California). When you consider the number that leave after high school, during college, into young adulthood, etc., the final number that leaves has to be much higher that. Almost no one I grew up with in the LC remains there. And sadly, there are very, very few among those who are any kind of practicing Christian at all.

In my generation (mid-late eighties) the percentage would be even higher. 95% would be fairly conservative. Only a few I knew remain.

Freedom · 03-25-2017, 07:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

I know there are ones who look at the publication purchases as "service". From what I've seen in homes, you'll find bookcases of LSM publications in the living room and in a side room where a home office is, you'll find a bookcase of help books of family and marriage. It implies to me the LSM publications is for image while help book is where the real needs are.

When I was younger, I remember going to the homes of various LC members and being impressed with their collections of LSM materials. But it never occurred to me that there is no way that they could possibly have had time to have read through all of those books unless they were retired or something. It's simply not possible.

Koinonia · 03-25-2017, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freedom

When I was younger, I remember going to the homes of various LC members and being impressed with their collections of LSM materials. But it never occurred to me that there is no way that they could possibly have had time to have read through all of those books unless they were retired or something. It's simply not possible.

And the books keep coming . . .

Terry · 03-26-2017, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freedom

When I was younger, I remember going to the homes of various LC members and being impressed with their collections of LSM materials. But it never occurred to me that there is no way that they could possibly have had time to have read through all of those books unless they were retired or something. It's simply not possible.

In my younger days as a single brother, there was certainly more time to read than as a married brother. Living in a brother's house there was so much emphasis in reading the publications, reading the Word was deemphasized and secondary. At one of the college age meetings there was "a recommended list" of publications to read.

Freedom · 03-27-2017, 12:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koinonia

And the books keep coming . . .

As long as people are willing to buy books, I guess that LSM has a market to sell them. But really, I don't look as anything different than if someone collects something, such as coke bottles. It's something purchased to display. And there is always going to be a limited market for that kind of stuff, limited to those who see a value in collecting it.

Koinonia · 03-28-2017, 04:28 PM

From Church News:

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How does your locality conduct an effective book service in a rented meeting place?

In order to help the saints pursue the truth and read more spiritual publications, the church in Ontario (CA) has recently started providing mobile and effective book service through a portable display stand for the saints on Lord’s Day. They rent a few rooms from a local high school each Lord’s day and because of this they are using a portable book display for convenience.

Before having this portable display, the book service in Ontario mostly consisted of distributing the Holy Word for Morning Revival to the saints. However, during the 2016 winter training, there was a burden to encourage the saints to read more of the ministry publications.

This burden was brought to the saints in Ontario to see how it can be carried out. Through prayer, fellowship and the Lord’s leading, a portable display stand was purchased along with one of the library packages offered by Living Stream Ministry (LSM). LSM offers display/library sets as packages with the purpose of providing churches or individuals with a set of Living Stream publications for physical display and sale of ministry material or to serve as a library for loaning out to individuals.

“The Lord’s word will require that we bear the responsibility to labor willingly to zealously encourage and urge everyone in all the local churches to pursue the truth and read the spiritual publications. In this way the Lord’s truth will spread widely, and there will be a real revival.” (CWWL, 1984, vol. 5, “The Faithful and Diligent Spreading of the Truth,” p. 208)

The hope is that through this book service, the saints would be encouraged to pursue the truth and read more spiritual publications. Once the Lord’s truth gets into the saints, it can easily spread and this will help bring in a real revival in the saints and among the churches in the Lord’s recovery.

Koinonia · 03-28-2017, 04:31 PM

The LC obsession with the sale of LSM books is truly bizarre and becoming more and more so.

Freedom · 03-28-2017, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koinonia

The LC obsession with the sale of LSM books is truly bizarre and becoming more and more so.

The whole idea of promoting and selling printed books is a bit dated. There's only going to be so much demand for that. I know that the LSM offers a lot of books in the electronic format, but it seems that for whatever reason, they prefer selling printed books. It could be about the money, I don't know.

As for the churches that are trying to demonstrate how to have a good "book service", I would think that the only reason for them doing so would be to demonstrate that they are in line with what the blendeds are saying, and maybe get a little bit of credit for being the first to implement something.

Koinonia · 03-28-2017, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freedom

The whole idea of promoting and selling printed books is a bit dated. There's only going to be so much demand for that. I know that the LSM offers a lot of books in the electronic format, but it seems that for whatever reason, they prefer selling printed books. It could be about the money, I don't know.

Declining booksales are the very reason that LSM recently started selling special libraries and sending brothers all over the U.S. and Canada to promote people's reading them. In the LC, book sales are used as an indication of both membership numbers and membership engagement. But in my opinion they are fighting a losing battle (for a variety of reasons).

I assume that income considerations must also be a factor, though I'm not entirely certain why.

Koinonia · 03-28-2017, 09:12 PM

The fact of the matter is that most people, even in the LC, simply do not enjoy reading Witness Lee. Even in the FTTA, this would be admitted to each other in hushed tones like a confession. After years of trying, I got fed up with forcing myself to read so much stuff that I just did not enjoy.

Freedom made an insightful observation in another thread when he pointed out that most LCers these days collect books more than read them. Once the publication of the CWWL is finished, I'm sure it will be a rite of passage for every young brother to acquire a complete set (as well as a set from the penultimate Minister-of-the-Age). The interesting thing is that this will become LSM's nearly only actual market.

Ohio · 03-29-2017, 07:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koinonia

The fact of the matter is that most people, even in the LC, simply do not enjoy reading Witness Lee. Even in the FTTA, this would be admitted to each other in hushed tones like a confession. After years of trying, I got fed up with forcing myself to read so much stuff that I just did not enjoy.

LSM has moved further and further away from God's Word. Initially the Conferences and Life Study Trainings were commentaries on scripture. Then we had Crystalization Studies based on the Life studies, and then we had the Blendeds re-speaking the Crystalizations.

Let's be honest, as much as LSM would like the truth to be different, the Lord is just not anointing their ministry any more. That's why it has no appeal. They can't just keep blaming all the readers and the hearers! The problem is with the source of their ministry, not with The Spirit of God or the children of God.

The leadership at LSM has never acknowledged nor repented of their past unrighteousness, especially how they have abused, mistreated, and slandered both former members and the Christian public.

Terry · 03-29-2017, 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

The leadership at LSM has never acknowledged nor repented of their past unrighteousness, especially how they have abused, mistreated, and slandered both former members and the Christian public.

I hear what you're saying Ohio, but status is a standoff. Local elders generally feel the need to "be one with the brothers". As such any historical reports are regarded as "perceived wrongdoings".

Terry · 03-29-2017, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koinonia

The fact of the matter is that most people, even in the LC, simply do not enjoy reading Witness Lee. Even in the FTTA, this would be admitted to each other in hushed tones like a confession. After years of trying, I got fed up with forcing myself to read so much stuff that I just did not enjoy.

Freedom made an insightful observation in another thread when he pointed out that most LCers these days collect books more than read them. Once the publication of the CWWL is finished, I'm sure it will be a rite of passage for every young brother to acquire a complete set (as well as a set from the penultimate Minister-of-the-Age). The interesting thing is that this will become LSM's nearly only actual market.

There's a term "early Lee" and "later Lee". Publications whose first editions came out prior to 1973 I enjoyed much more than those post-1973.

One item I cannot get over is how LSM receiving local churches can say they are not ministry churches. As soon a locality no longer receives LSM publications, it is no longer received by fellow localities. Moses Lake in Washington state and countless more in the Great lakes area.
By the way the GLA turmoil from the previous decade I feel in part was revenue based. You may say Titus had a work within a work, but from afar it didn't seem he was trying to compete against LSM.
Once the quarantine edicts were issued and lawsuits began, it was localities that had real estate were targeted. Others were passed over.

Ohio · 03-29-2017, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

I hear what you're saying Ohio, but status is a standoff. Local elders generally feel the need to "be one with the brothers". As such any historical reports are regarded as "perceived wrongdoings".

That's why the local elders have little responsibility in the matter.

Terry · 04-05-2017, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

That's why the local elders have little responsibility in the matter.

I have come to accept LC elders becoming a product of loyalty than of qualities mentioned in Paul's epistles.

Ohio · 04-05-2017, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

I have come to accept LC elders becoming a product of loyalty than of qualities mentioned in Paul's epistles.

You are so right. Of course!

We in the GLA always heard that Titus Chu was "different" in this matter.

Then it all hit close to home, prior to the GLA quarantines, and the perpetual "prevarications" of LC leadership smacked me upside the head, and this sleeper awoke. (Ephesians 5.14)

Freedom · 04-10-2017, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

One item I cannot get over is how LSM receiving local churches can say they are not ministry churches. As soon a locality no longer receives LSM publications, it is no longer received by fellow localities. Moses Lake in Washington state and countless more in the Great lakes area.
By the way the GLA turmoil from the previous decade I feel in part was revenue based. You may say Titus had a work within a work, but from afar it didn't seem he was trying to compete against LSM.
Once the quarantine edicts were issued and lawsuits began, it was localities that had real estate were targeted. Others were passed over.

In light of an apparent inability to sell books, it makes sense why the blendeds would feel threatened by publications not produced by LSM. Was that the entire issue? Probably not, but certainly a lot of the issues they have attempted to spiritualize are really just about money.

Terry · 04-10-2017, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freedom

In light of an apparent inability to sell books, it makes sense why the blendeds would feel threatened by publications not produced by LSM. Was that the entire issue? Probably not, but certainly a lot of the issues they have attempted to spiritualize are really just about money.

A brother I know had an audio tape of the Spring 1986 Elders Conference/training. As much time Lee spent speaking on Linko, instances like that says there's a HUGE emphasis on money.

Koinonia · 06-16-2017, 08:51 PM

Encouraging responses from the saints in Florida after hearing the burden of getting into the ministry publications.

After the speaking, we allowed 20 to 30 minutes for testimonies of the saints' experience of reading the ministry publications. The saints were very appreciative of the visits and they all eagerly received and confirmed the burden. We focused our sharing on building up a daily 30-minute habit of reading the ministry, becoming a "scholarly" family by reading and accumulating books, and lending books. We recorded the testimonies of saints who gave us permission to share their testimony on the internet. We collected a minimum 10 testimonies per meeting. These will be used in our weekly newsletter.

The net effect of the church visits was not only a renewed appreciation of the ministry publications for personal and corporate enjoyment and distribution, but the visits were an encouragement and shepherding to the saints as well. The saints in Ft Meyers/Seabring were especially happy and receptive to the sharing, even promoting the ministry publications during their testimonies using the LSM flyers that we brought.

Both Samuel and I felt that there is a benefit to sharing the burden church by church. Moreover, there was great value in having Ted join us to gain a perspective of each church's local situation. This provides good foundation for his future revisits to the churches.

SUMMARY OF FLORIDA TRIP

June 2 Fly into JAX
June 3 Afternoon Jacksonville
SE Responsible Brothers' Meeting

Afternoon meeting with about 100 responsible brothers from Florida, Atlanta, Tennesee, South Carolina, and one brother from Brazil. We reviewed Br. Lee's burden for the leading ones to get into the truth, participate in building up a local book service, and leading the saints into the truth. Rick Scatterday was present and gave an excellent, short concluding word.

Documents distributed to brothers: LSM Sept 30 letter, eleven ministry exceprts, Propagation of the Truth in the Lord's Recovery, LSM package and CWWL flyers, booklists for LSM packages, outline: Fellowship on Establishing a Book Service, outline: How to Lend Books, outline: Faithful and Diligent Spreading of the Truth, excerpt from CWWL 1997, vol 1, "We Become What we Read", Ray's sheet containing accounts of David Livingstone and Hudson Taylor borrowing books.

June 3 Evening Jacksonville
Evening mtg with about 25 saints from the church in Jacksonville
June 4 Jacksonville Lord's Table with about 50 saints
June 4 Tallahassee
Dinner with four responsible brothers then church mtg~15 saints.
June 5 Gainesville (with a few saints from Ocala)
Dinner with two brothers, then church mtg~25 saints
June 6 Orlando
Dinner with~ six brothers, then church mtg~25 saints
June 7 Tampa
Dinner with~ six brothers, then church mtg~25 saints
June 8 Ft Meyers (with Seabring)
Dinner with six brrothers, then Spanish-English meeting -34 saints
June 9 Miami-dinner with seven brothers
June 10 Miami (with Fort Lauderdale and Boca Raton)
Spanish-English meeting ~200 saints.

For the ministry propagation brothers,
Michio

Koinonia · 06-16-2017, 10:11 PM

http://ministrypropagation.org/category/testimony/

Pages of brothers and sisters preaching about "the books." This is the LC.

Ohio · 06-17-2017, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koinonia

http://ministrypropagation.org/category/testimony/

Pages of brothers and sisters preaching about "the books." This is the LC.

That is crazy!

"The Interpreted Word saved me ..."

Witness Lee has "risen" above Jesus and His word.

Freedom · 06-17-2017, 08:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koinonia

http://ministrypropagation.org/category/testimony/

Pages of brothers and sisters preaching about "the books." This is the LC.

Their 'testimonies' have some interesting titles...

"Those two books turned my life around"

"The Ministry Book that Stopped Me from Arguing with Brother Lee"

"Crucial Matters in the Bible Revealed to Me by the Books of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee"

"The Writings of Witness Lee Opening Up Truth after Truth from the Bible"

"Redeeming the Time By Using the App to Enjoy the Ministry"

"Becoming the Church in Our Locality through These books"

"A Deep Impression On a Scholarly Family"

"The Traditional Concept Being Changed through the Life studies"

"The Benefits of Having Ministry Books in the Home"

"The Ministry Books Revealing to Us What the Church Really Is"

Koinonia · 06-17-2017, 09:35 AM

These videos, websites, and letters show the real condition of the LC. The LC is the religion of Witness Lee and Witness Lee's books.

Freedom · 06-17-2017, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koinonia

These videos, websites, and letters show the real condition of the LC. The LC is the religion of Witness Lee and Witness Lee's books.

All in all, it is hard to understand how people in the LC don't see through these kinds of promotions, or the condition that it is indicative of.

What I find more concerning, however, is knowing what kind of problem they are creating for LC members when they encourage they to promote the LSM books with what they call "proper aggression." That is bound to backfire sooner or later. For example, one of their outlines on that website tells members to suggestively place ministry books around their home in "convenient locations" in hopes that family members or guests will read the books.

I've seen these types of subtle attempts they use to pressure LC members. It's what most people would call passive-aggressive behavior. For example, I was just telling someone recently about how in the city I'm from, the elders used to sign people up for conferences without asking them, and then tell them that they have been signed up already and need to attend.

That's the same type of tactic as it seems they are promoting here - trying to pressure people without asking them a question directly, which would allow for a yes/no response.

Terry · 06-18-2017, 12:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freedom

"The Ministry Book that Stopped Me from Arguing with Brother Lee"

That book would not be Fermentation of the Present Rebellion.

Terry · 06-18-2017, 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freedom

What I find more concerning, however, is knowing what kind of problem they are creating for LC members when they encourage they to promote the LSM books with what they call "proper aggression." That is bound to backfire sooner or later. For example, one of their outlines on that website tells members to suggestively place ministry books around their home in "convenient locations" in hopes that family members or guests will read the books.

When it's located on the same bookshelf as an Encyclopedia or the Bible, it is an Encyclopedia or the Bible that will be read before a ministry book would. All the word-smithing utilized to try to make LSM publications unique and distinct only results in a fast tract to irrelevance.

Freedom · 06-18-2017, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

When it's located on the same bookshelf as an Encyclopedia or the Bible, it is an Encyclopedia or the Bible that will be read before a ministry book would. All the word-smithing utilized to try to make LSM publications unique and distinct only results in a fast tract to irrelevance.

LSM books are readily available to read online and purchase on places like amazon for anyone who wishes to do so, not to mention all the vast collections of books LC members already have. So if people aren't reading them, it's not a lack of availability or a lack of visibility of the books. The market is already saturated, and people are bored with the same old books. These promotions just highlight the reality of the situation.

Anyways, if the LSM is so intent on selling books, maybe they should learn from Dong Yu Lan and start opening BooKafes

https://christianbookshopsblog.org.u...pcafe-culture/

Ohio · 06-18-2017, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freedom

LSM books are readily available to read online and purchase on places like amazon for anyone who wishes to do so, not to mention all the vast collections of books LC members already have. So if people aren't reading them, it's not a lack of availability or a lack of visibility of the books. The market is already saturated, and people are bored with the same old books. These promotions just highlight the reality of the situation.

We should never forget that it is the Spirit who gives life. A book that once was anointed, may not always be anointed, in contrast to God's Word.

LSM's books are not meeting people's needs, and hence have become worse than boring. From spoken messages to Life Studies to Rainbow Booklets to Green Volumes to Crystalization Studies to Blended Rehashings, the same teachings have been reprinted, repackaged, and resold for profit to the same customers. Nothing new, nothing fresh, nothing anointed.

Their people are starving, yet they claim to be stuffed with riches.

Terry · 06-20-2017, 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freedom

LSM books are readily available to read online and purchase on places like amazon for anyone who wishes to do so, not to mention all the vast collections of books LC members already have. So if people aren't reading them, it's not a lack of availability or a lack of visibility of the books. The market is already saturated, and people are bored with the same old books. These promotions just highlight the reality of the situation.

I suspect many of the newer books have their content taken from earlier publications only to make it appear "this is new". As it is much of the online content is diluted from it's original form.

Nell · 06-20-2017, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

We should never forget that it is the Spirit who gives life. A book that once was anointed, may not always be anointed, in contrast to God's Word.

LSM's books are not meeting people's needs, and hence have become worse than boring. From spoken messages to Life Studies to Rainbow Booklets to Green Volumes to Crystalization Studies to Blended Rehashings, the same teachings have been reprinted, repackaged, and resold for profit to the same customers. Nothing new, nothing fresh, nothing anointed.

Their people are starving, yet they claim to be stuffed with riches.

Ohio,

This doesn't say much for Lee being the "Minister of the Age", does it? Perhaps Lee's "age" is OVER? Lee's ministry ended with his death. All that's left is recycled and repackaged books...like eating Hamburger Helper every meal.

However, Martin Luther's contribution, justification by faith, is ageless and timeless. Lee's contribution is ... not.

Nell

Ohio · 06-20-2017, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Ohio,

This doesn't say much for Lee being the "Minister of the Age", does it? Perhaps Lee's "age" is OVER? Lee's ministry ended with his death. All that's left is recycled and repackaged books...like eating Hamburger Helper every meal.

Nell

There was a time when I lived on Hamburger Helper....

Definitely tasted better than repackaged Lee.

Please retract your negative comments!

Nell · 06-20-2017, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

There was a time when I lived on Hamburger Helper....

Definitely tasted better than repackaged Lee.

Please retract your negative comments!

OK. You have a point. Hamburger Helper does taste better.

Oh right...I forgot. Don't say anything negative. Are you sure that applies to Hamburger Helper?

How long do i have to retract before I get banned?

Freedom · 06-24-2017, 09:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terry

I suspect many of the newer books have their content taken from earlier publications only to make it appear "this is new". As it is much of the online content is diluted from it's original form.

When the LSM releases 'new' books, everyone can rest assured that it is nothing new.

I noticed that in the advertising for the CWWL they say that a significant portion of the material is previously unreleased. That may very well be true. But there is a big thing people forget about WL. He wasn't an author. He didn't write much of anything. He spoke messages. Lots of them.

Messages are delivered to audiences, and the content of a spoken message is not usually considered to have a long term applicability. It is spoken in the here and now. So what the LSM is actually releasing is a bunch of content that has a highly questionable applicability and relevance.

Nell · 06-25-2017, 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freedom

When the LSM releases 'new' books, everyone can rest assured that it is nothing new.

I noticed that in the advertising for the CWWL they say that a significant portion of the material is previously unreleased. That may very well be true. But there is a big thing people forget about WL. He wasn't an author. He didn't write much of anything. He spoke messages. Lots of them.

Messages are delivered to audiences, and the content of a spoken message is not usually considered to have a long term applicability. It is spoken in the here and now. So what the LSM is actually releasing is a bunch of content that has a highly questionable applicability and relevance.

Conversely, the spoken message tape transcripts are themselves are edited in content before released in print. Some spoken-to-written editing is necessary but content should be polished, not completely omitted.

I attended a Witness Lee meeting in Dallas in the '90's wherein he shared about "man becomes God". I was shocked by this, as it was a fairly new topic for Lee. I waited for months to obtain a copy of this Dallas conference message in print. When it was finally released, I was shocked again that "man becomes God" was nowhere to be found. I was there. I heard it with my own ears. It was in my notes.

This was only one example. Several times I thought I heard something ...controversial... looked it up in my notes and there it was. Yet it never made it to print. I cited a passage from "Elders Training #9" to an LC member. They came back "That's not in my ET#9". Sure enough, it wasn't. I had the original publication, my friend did not...so he did not believe WL said what I cited.

The spoken messages are transcribed, then often manipulated for a desired effect, applicability and an "updated relevance".

Nell

Ohio · 06-25-2017, 05:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Conversely, the spoken message tape transcripts are themselves are edited in content before released in print. Some spoken-to-written editing is necessary but content should be polished, not completely omitted.

I attended a Witness Lee meeting in Dallas in the '90's wherein he shared about "man becomes God". I was shocked by this, as it was a fairly new topic for Lee. I waited for months to obtain a copy of this Dallas conference message in print. When it was finally released, I was shocked again that "man becomes God" was nowhere to be found. I was there. I heard it with my own ears. It was in my notes.

This was only one example. Several times I thought I heard something ...controversial... looked it up in my notes and there it was. Yet it never made it to print. I cited a passage from "Elders Training #9" to an LC member. They came back "That's not in my ET#9". Sure enough, it wasn't. I had the original publication, my friend did not...so he did not believe WL said what I cited.

The spoken messages are transcribed, then often manipulated for a desired effect, applicability and an "updated relevance".

Nell

Nell, this explains so much, that even the current members do not understand.

For example, why the Blendeds felt compelled to cut off Titus Chu when nothing, even in their own books, would warrant it.

ZNPaaneah · 06-25-2017, 02:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Conversely, the spoken message tape transcripts are themselves are edited in content before released in print. Some spoken-to-written editing is necessary but content should be polished, not completely omitted.

I attended a Witness Lee meeting in Dallas in the '90's wherein he shared about "man becomes God". I was shocked by this, as it was a fairly new topic for Lee. I waited for months to obtain a copy of this Dallas conference message in print. When it was finally released, I was shocked again that "man becomes God" was nowhere to be found. I was there. I heard it with my own ears. It was in my notes.

This was only one example. Several times I thought I heard something ...controversial... looked it up in my notes and there it was. Yet it never made it to print. I cited a passage from "Elders Training #9" to an LC member. They came back "That's not in my ET#9". Sure enough, it wasn't. I had the original publication, my friend did not...so he did not believe WL said what I cited.

The spoken messages are transcribed, then often manipulated for a desired effect, applicability and an "updated relevance".

Nell

When I was in Houston and Irving there were layers of editing. These messages generally went through 3 levels of editing, only one level involved polishing the English language. I think I and others did the first layer of obvious mistakes. James F and Pat F were two of those who did the basic english editing. When I was there Ben M was one of those responsible for editing out the aspects that would be picked up by the cult books.

Basic error of the cult books was to base their study off of the written word instead of getting the video tapes.

Terry · 06-26-2017, 01:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Conversely, the spoken message tape transcripts are themselves are edited in content before released in print. Some spoken-to-written editing is necessary but content should be polished, not completely omitted.

I attended a Witness Lee meeting in Dallas in the '90's wherein he shared about "man becomes God". I was shocked by this, as it was a fairly new topic for Lee. I waited for months to obtain a copy of this Dallas conference message in print. When it was finally released, I was shocked again that "man becomes God" was nowhere to be found. I was there. I heard it with my own ears. It was in my notes.

This was only one example. Several times I thought I heard something ...controversial... looked it up in my notes and there it was. Yet it never made it to print. I cited a passage from "Elders Training #9" to an LC member. They came back "That's not in my ET#9". Sure enough, it wasn't. I had the original publication, my friend did not...so he did not believe WL said what I cited.

The spoken messages are transcribed, then often manipulated for a desired effect, applicability and an "updated relevance".

Such is true Nell. It may have been inferred if not spoken directly that the cult books that came out in the late 70's/early 80's had it's content based more off audio tapes than published material.
Even if one was to go by Witness Lee's final conference. What he spoke was edited to appear quite differently. Just by removing one word hear or there, it becomes quote easy to take out of context what was actually spoken.

Freedom · 06-27-2017, 12:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nell

Conversely, the spoken message tape transcripts are themselves are edited in content before released in print. Some spoken-to-written editing is necessary but content should be polished, not completely omitted.

My point wasn't so much about the editing itself, but of the fact that WL didn't sit down and write books with a broad audience in mind. It seems I read somewhere that WL claimed that he often went up to the podium not knowing what he was going to speak. If true, then the published content of such messages has a particularly questionable applicability.

OBW · 06-28-2017, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

We should never forget that it is the Spirit who gives life. A book that once was anointed, may not always be anointed, in contrast to God's Word.

LSM's books are not meeting people's needs, and hence have become worse than boring. From spoken messages to Life Studies to Rainbow Booklets to Green Volumes to Crystalization Studies to Blended Rehashings, the same teachings have been reprinted, repackaged, and resold for profit to the same customers. Nothing new, nothing fresh, nothing anointed.

Their people are starving, yet they claim to be stuffed with riches.

And I will be the fly in the ointment.

A book (other than the Bible) is never anointed. What it says may be (in part) and if it is then it should always be, even if not readily understood in other contexts, cultures, times, etc.

But when it comes to LSM books, my question is "what needs did LSM books ever meet?"

And I would suggest that it was the need to get deeper into a garlic room of misdirection and confusion. And I say that no matter how much many of us once held them in (at least somewhat) high esteem. I admit I was fooled once. But no more. At least not by that source.

Drake · 06-29-2017, 06:13 AM

OBW"A book (other than the Bible) is never anointed."

The wording of this sentence obfuscates the spiritual reality.

For instance, if Billy Graham speaks and 1000 people come forward to receive the Lord then there can be no doubt that his speaking was anointed. The anointing being the Spirit operating on a person as a result of the spoken word.

If that same message is transcribed into print, and people read it and the Spirit operates causing them to come to the Lord then that also confirms the same word is anointed.

Spoken or written the message is anointed, it is the Spirit's speaking.

Drake

Freedom · 06-29-2017, 11:37 AM

Personally, I wouldn't deny the possibility of a book being anointed, but I think there is a lot more ambiguity with books. Going back to the Billy Graham example, it is easy to characterize speaking as being anointed in a particular place and time. If a recording or transcription of that meeting is made, how do we know it will retain a lasting impact? The fact is that no one can guarantee or know if it will. Most importantly, it seems a presumptuous to look at the impact a message, then assume publishing a book based on that meeting would have the same impact.

Of course, there are plenty of books that do have a noticeable impact. When The Purpose Driven Life was published, there was definitely something special about the book that resulted in it becoming so popular. Whether someone wants to call it 'anointed' or not doesn't make any difference to me, but I would be comfortable saying that the full impact of that particular book has already been realized. In other words, most of the people who will might find help from that book have already received help from it.

WL might have given numerous messages that most people who were there would say characterize it as being ‘anointed’. However, for those who were not there, reading a book is not going to recreate the environment of actually being there. Whether or not that book is helpful depends mostly on the individual. Don’t forget that in their own words, LSM calls this current book drive a promotion. If LSM books are everything they are claimed to be, then why do they need to be promoted? Why do people need to be pressured to read them? Books that people actually want usually sell themselves. Go on Amazon and look at all the top selling Christian books and Bibles. People actually pay money to purchase those. The LCM struggles to give away the RcV for free.

Drake · 06-29-2017, 12:28 PM

-1 I was responding to the notion of "never anointed".

Evangelical · 06-29-2017, 05:21 PM

Books are not anointed, only people are.

One person may say a book is anointed, another may say it isn't. It depends on the person, not the book.

Igzy · 06-29-2017, 09:04 PM

I think if the person is in the Spirit when they write something, or record something, then that amount of the Spirit, in keeping with the spirit in which they wrote or spoke it, continues to bear witness to it. The Spirit is the eternal Spirit. He is not subject to time.

For example, if you watch a video of a person speaking in the Spirit, you will realize they were/are speaking in the Spirit. I remember a brother who used to remark, "I don't see how the Spirit can get on tape." Well, the Spirit bore witness when it happened, and he will continue to bear witness when it is replayed, or re-read.

However, Evangelical has a point. The anointing experienced also depends on the reader/listener. Some listeners hear a message which many others would witness was anointed, yet they might say they are untouched by it. So there are two sides to it.

He that has an ear, let him hear.

Terry · 06-30-2017, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Freedom

Don’t forget that in their own words, LSM calls this current book drive a promotion. If LSM books are everything they are claimed to be, then why do they need to be promoted? Why do people need to be pressured to read them? Books that people actually want usually sell themselves. Go on Amazon and look at all the top selling Christian books and Bibles. People actually pay money to purchase those. The LCM struggles to give away the RcV for free.

I don't know if they still do it now, but a one time a particular tactic to promote the publications would to say if you want to be an overcomer, you need to get into the ministry.
Perhaps after a number of years and an unseemly number of dollars spent on books coming out left and right, some people saw through the façade? Others might say, why am I pretending? Buying books never read only to collect dust in their garage, bookshelves, closets, etc.

Trapped · 08-14-2018, 07:39 PM

I have heard that one thing that is being pushed now is called something like "Bookroom Service Workshop" where saints in the bookroom (plus a mandatory elder) fly out to Anaheim to get instructed how to carry out a proper bookroom, i.e. pleasing book displays, how ordering from LSM works, making sure the saints know about the bookroom, the importance of the ministry, and other topics on HWMR, CWWL, etc, etc. Of course to show loyalty many localities will feel obligated to participate. The instant I heard about it I just thought "money", but also "uhmm, seriously?"

Sheesh.

Trapped · 08-14-2018, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Koinonia

In August 2018 The Collected Works of Witness Lee will be completed and made available in its entirety. This represents a monumental step in church history because it is a faithful preservation of the ministry that has been given by the Lord to His church for the growth and building up of the Body of Christ. Concerning this ministry, Brother Lee testifies, “It is a fact of history in the Lord’s recovery that any church which follows the ministry is strong and blessed. But those churches which neglect the ministry and try instead to do something on their own have become a failure...My burden is to produce groceries. The churches and the saints are free either to use them or to disregard them. But if the saints cast away the nourishment found in these messages, I wonder what they will feed on. We are what we eat. If we eat the ‘groceries’ produced in today’s religion, we shall be part of religion. Let me say in frankness and honesty that the leading ones need to take ‘these things’ and lay them before the saints that they may be nourished”

Possessing this set is a unique opportunity to preserve the priceless supply of the ministry with which the Lord has blessed His recovery through the speaking of the Spirit. We encourage the churches around the world to make this heritage available to the saints. The Collected Works of Witness Lee with the comprehensive index will be an invaluable resource for use in personal study, in home meetings, and in the shepherding and care of the saints. In addition, this complete set will provide a lasting legacy of the truth for our children and generations to come. Surely, this ministry is not for us alone, for in receiving it, we have been entrusted with a stewardship. “If indeed you have heard of the stewardship of the grace of God which was given to me for you, that by revelation the mystery was made known to me...by which, in reading it, you can perceive my understanding in the mystery of Christ” (Eph. 3:2-4). “The stewardship of the grace is for the dispensing of the grace of God to His chosen people for the producing and building up of the church. Out of this stewardship comes the ministry” (v. 2, footnote 2). “If you lay these things before the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, being nourished with the words of the faith and of the good teaching which you have closely followed” (1 Tim. 4:6). “To minister Christ to others requires that first we ourselves be nourished with the words of life concerning Christ”

This announcement about CWWL bothered me when it came out. Aside from the "monumental step in church history" nonsense, the other one was: "Possessing this set is a unique opportunity to preserve the priceless supply of the ministry..." ?????? No, I think LSM and all the digital records are preserving it, me buying it does not preserve it. Stop using overblown language to create the "we must" "we need" frenzy already! Invaluable? I think you meant unvaluable!!

leastofthese · 08-15-2018, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

This announcement about CWWL bothered me when it came out. Aside from the "monumental step in church history" nonsense, the other one was: "Possessing this set is a unique opportunity to preserve the priceless supply of the ministry..." ?????? No, I think LSM and all the digital records are preserving it, me buying it does not preserve it. Stop using overblown language to create the "we must" "we need" frenzy already! Invaluable? I think you meant unvaluable!!

Unreal, I had to search it for myself to make sure it wasn’t edited by our poster. It would be funny if it weren’t so sad/scary for those who are deceived and trapped in this mess they call Lee’s ministry.

The direct source for this quote: https://www.livingstream.com/cwwl/

Ohio · 08-15-2018, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

This announcement about CWWL bothered me when it came out. Aside from the "monumental step in church history" nonsense, the other one was: "Possessing this set is a unique opportunity to preserve the priceless supply of the ministry..." ?????? No, I think LSM and all the digital records are preserving it, me buying it does not preserve it. Stop using overblown language to create the "we must" "we need" frenzy already! Invaluable? I think you meant unvaluable!!

And I'm quite sure that Brother Witness Lee will give a hearty and extended thanks to all of the beloved brothers who worked so hard along side of him to build up his ministry -- ones such as Ingalls, Rapoport, Hardy, Godfred, Ransford, Grueler, Knoch, Chu, Duane, So, Mallon, and the untold number of others all recorded in the Lamb's book of life.

countmeworthy · 08-16-2018, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

I have heard that one thing that is being pushed now is called something like "Bookroom Service Workshop" where saints in the bookroom (plus a mandatory elder) fly out to Anaheim to get instructed how to carry out a proper bookroom, i.e. pleasing book displays, how ordering from LSM works, making sure the saints know about the bookroom, the importance of the ministry, and other topics on HWMR, CWWL, etc, etc. Of course to show loyalty many localities will feel obligated to participate. The instant I heard about it I just thought "money", but also "uhmm, seriously?"

Sheesh.

Hi all..
The LSM/LC just like many denominations and non denominations man made 'church' institutions have lost their first love: Jesus.

How is possible that a 'proper bookroom' 'pleasing book displays' etc is more important than building up the body of Christ and seeking Christ with all our hearts and minds and spirits of course?

I don't get it.

Trapped · 08-21-2018, 09:43 PM

I didn't see a thread anywhere dedicated to the "One Publication" letter put out by LSM. The letter is reproduced below, but can be found online here: https://www.lsm.org/onepublication/

PUBLICATION WORK IN THE LORD’S RECOVERY

Through Brother Lee’s fellowship over the years, we have long realized that there should be one publication among us. The one publication is not only a testimony of our oneness in the Body but also a safeguard for the unique ministry in the Lord’s recovery. Without one publication, there is no way to preserve the integrity of the Lord’s ministry among us, which is crucial to the practical oneness among the local churches. Brother Lee gave this word of testimony on this crucial matter in the Lord’s recovery:

When we were on mainland China, only Brother Nee had a publication, and the Gospel Room belonged solely and uniquely to him. He asked me to help in the publication work. I did write some books, among which were a book on the genealogy of Christ, a translation of part of Pember’s Earth’s Earliest Ages, and some books on the kingdom of the heavens. I never published anything by myself. I always mailed my manuscript to the Gospel Room, which was under Brother Nee and his helper. It was up to their discernment whether my manuscript should be published or not. I liked to have my writings checked as to whether there might be some inaccuracy in the truth. It is not a small matter to write a book that expounds the kingdom of the heavens. I liked my material to pass through their checking. This helped and protected me. Brother Yu, the eye specialist, translated some of the mystical books, but he did not publish anything. We only had one publication. Everything was published through Brother Nee’s Gospel Room because the publication is really the trumpeting. The sounding of our trumpet is not just in the verbal message but more in the publication. (Elders’ Training, Book 8: The Life-pulse of the Lord’s Present Move, pp. 161-162. See the larger context of this quotation in the attached ministry portions.)

According to the practice established by Brother Nee in China, the one publication has always been trumpeted by one practical publication endeavor—in Brother Nee’s day by his Gospel Room, during Brother Lee’s years after he left mainland China by Taiwan Gospel Book Room, and during his years in the United States by Living Stream Ministry. Today we must be diligent to continue this practice of the trumpeting in the one publication in a practical way through the publication service of Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room. Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room publish both the past ministry that was delivered to us by Brother Nee and Brother Lee and the ongoing, up-to-date speaking that comes out of the fellowship of the blended co-workers and is based on the ministry materials of Brother Lee and Brother Nee. These are the materials that have been used regularly in the church life in the Lord’s recovery, and these constitute the one publication among us today.

When Brother Lee was among us, he took the lead in both the ministry and the publication work. As he released the Lord’s ministry to the churches, he directed Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room to publish that ministry throughout the churches so that the saints everywhere could be kept in the up-to-date fellowship of the one ministry. Because the ministry was released originally in either English or Chinese, he formed Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room as publication offices that would carry out the practical service of publishing the ministry for the churches. Today, by the Lord’s mercy, the ministry continues. Now it is carried out by fellow slaves who serve in a blended way according to Brother Lee’s realization and fellowship shortly before he went to be with the Lord. He called this “the Lord’s sovereign provision for His Body, and the up-to-date way to fulfill His ministry” (A Letter of Fellowship with Thanks, March 24, 1997). It is important to note that Brother Lee spoke directly about the continuation of the ministry among us. He felt that after his departure the ministry should be carried out by a group of co-workers who are blended, just as his own service in the ministry was under his coordination with the co-workers. Further, the need to publish the ongoing ministry still exists, and to this end Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room, a blended service overseen by a group of blended brothers who serve in coordination with the blended co-workers, continue to publish the Lord’s speaking among us in all the seven annual “feasts” and the weekly ministry meetings. In a meeting with the brothers to whom he committed the responsibility for Living Stream Ministry, Brother Lee said, “My burden is for the recovery based on the interpretation of Brother Nee and me. I am the continuation of Brother Nee; I would like to have a continuation of me, and this needs a corporation...The Living Stream corporation will continue this ministry” (from unpublished notes of a meeting of Living Stream, July 12, 1996). He placed the direction of this corporation for the continuation and publication of the ministry in the hands of a group of blended brothers, who labor to fulfill this charge before the Lord.

What Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room do, as set forth in the Living Stream’s Articles of Incorporation, is “to promote the enlightenment and revelation regarding the Bible as interpreted by the teachings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee.” It was Brother Lee’s express wish that Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room would be the sole publishers of his and Brother Nee’s ministry. According to this wish and arrangement, Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room should be responsible for the publication of the ministry materials of these two brothers, and any use of Brother Lee’s materials or of The Collected Works of Watchman Nee should be done in coordination with Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room, and only with their express permission, according to their guidelines, and in proper fellowship with them. This includes the translation of these materials into any language as well as any republication in any form or through any medium. Further, Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room also publish the ongoing ministry in the Lord’s recovery as the extension of the ministry of these two brothers. The ongoing ministry is carried out according to the fellowship of blended co-workers and is based on outlines compiled from Brother Lee’s and Brother Nee’s ministry materials. As has been apparent to all the saints everywhere, this labor produces the same ministry with the same taste as has been enjoyed in all the churches since Brother Nee’s time. The up-to-date speaking among us is published primarily in the outlines of the messages for the seven “feasts,” The Holy Word for Morning Revival, and The Ministry magazine by Living Stream Ministry and in corresponding publications by Taiwan Gospel Book Room. In addition, Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room publish works that support the Lord’s ministry. There are a number of publications which Brother Lee initiated that fall into this category, most notably the journal Affirmation & Critique, which presents the truths of the Lord’s recovery to an academically-trained audience as we have received them from Brother Lee. As much as possible, Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room avoid venturing into other kinds of publications, but according to Brother Lee’s own example, occasionally there may be publications of these other kinds which Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room feel to publish either under their own names or under special imprints that serve particular publication needs. For example, Living Stream Books (as opposed to Living Stream Ministry) publishes God’s Plan of Redemption by Mary E. McDonough, and A&C Press publishes a translation from French of a scholarly study on deification in the early church.

At times there may be writings among us that could be considered for publication as part of the one publication among us. As Brother Lee points out in the quote from Elders’ Training, Book above, these proposals should be “checked as to whether there might be some inaccuracy in the truth.” Discernment must always be exercised when expressing matters related to the divine truth, the divine life, and the gospel. The exercise of this sort of discernment not only protects the teaching among us and the spiritual supply to the saints; it also helps and protects those who endeavor to write. Hence, it is proper that those who endeavor to write in this way bring their work to those who take the lead in the ministry and those who take the lead in the publication work, and those who take the lead should exercise the discernment as to whether or not such proposals should be published as part of the one publication. This was the practice when Brother Nee took the lead in the ministry and in the publication work in China, and it was our practice when Brother Lee took the lead in the ministry and in the publication work among us. It should be our continued practice today. Thus, those who wish to write in this way should bring their proposals to the blended co-workers as well as to Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room and have their proposals checked to see whether they should be published or not. In every way, this practice of passing everything that we publish through a discerning check is best for all of us and best for the sounding of the one trumpet in the Lord’s recovery today.

We all must realize that the one publication in the Lord’s recovery is quite a serious matter. Anyone who participates in it must genuinely have the portion from the Lord to do so, and this portion should be easily recognizable to the churches and affirmed by those who take the lead in the ministry and those who take the lead in the publication work. No one can take up this portion in the Lord’s recovery on his own. While we all have a basic right to publish, in the Lord’s recovery we are governed by the higher vision of serving under the cross in a blended way in the Body, especially when it affects the churches and the dear saints everywhere. Since Brother Nee’s day we in the Lord’s recovery have been “restricted in one publication” (Elders’ Training, p. 161), and this restriction has resulted in one testimony among us. For decades we all have been nurtured and richly supplied by the one publication. The benefits of being restricted in one publication can hardly be denied.

But being restricted in the one publication does not mean, and has never meant, that individual churches are not free to produce and distribute materials for their local needs. We have always had publications like this among us, and there have generally been no problems related to these. Songbooks, local tracts, church meeting outlines, testimonies, etc., have long been produced among us without controversy. These are actually not part of the one publication among us in that they do not involve all the churches. These are publications that address local needs. Problems can be caused, however, when these local and non-permanent publications gain larger geographical status. Further, it is particularly problematic when new technologies, such as the Internet, are used to distribute these local publications. The elders should take special care to assure that what is produced for their local churches remains a local matter. Otherwise, damage may result. Although technologies now exist that permit the easy dissemination of material, we should not use these technologies at the risk of causing confusion among the saints and of damaging the one accord among the churches. The elders and saints everywhere should exercise the same caution that Brother Lee spoke of when he testified concerning the one publication in mainland China: all the saints and all the churches everywhere should similarly be restricted in one publication in the Lord’s recovery.

Technology today allows almost any individual to publish whatever he or she desires, and it should not be the intention of the responsible ones in the Lord’s recovery to suppress the rights of individuals to express themselves (unless, of course, such expressions are sinful, heretical, or divisive). Some saints have a desire to write church histories, to produce children’s materials, to record music, and even to give and publish messages. Without much effort these can be reproduced in a variety of media and distributed widely, especially on the Internet and on CDs and DVDs. But the fact that these publications can be produced and distributed should not give them any more credence among the churches than anything else that can be published today, secular or religious. These are simply other publications that our brothers and sisters may or may not be interested in. They are not part of the one publication in the Lord’s recovery, and they are not necessarily beneficial to the spiritual good of the saints among us. The churches, through the elders, should be educated to understand this, and the saints and the churches need to discern the value of these publications for themselves. As shepherds of the flock of God (1 Pet. 5:2), the elders everywhere should have a proper care for the churches with regard to publications, and they should guard the flock from things that could cause damage (Acts 20:28-29). As long as the churches do not become platforms for the dissemination of these publications, these publications should not become matters of issue among us.

Finally, all the churches and saints everywhere must understand that the matter of one publication is not a matter of the common faith but something related to the one ministry in the Lord’s recovery. The ministry is the sounding of the trumpet among us in the Lord’s recovery, and there should be no uncertain sounding of this trumpet, as Brother Lee has mentioned on a number of occasions. However, the one publication should not become the basis of our accepting or rejecting any persons in the communion of faith or in the fellowship of the churches; it should not be insisted on as an item of the faith. If any are not inclined to be restricted in one publication, these ones are still our brothers; they are still in the genuine local churches. We would like to conclude with these words from our Brother Lee and wish to recommend that the full context of his words be read from Elders’ Training, Book 7: One Accord for the Lord’s Move, pp. 74-75:

Whether or not a certain church takes the ministry does not decide whether that church is a genuine local church. The title of this message does not say “no uncertain sounding of the trumpet in the Lord’s recovery” but “in the Lord’s ministry.” I am not talking about something in the Lord’s recovery, but I am talking about the ministry...

I have to be faithful to the Lord, faithful to so many of you who have been very much affected by this ministry, and faithful to myself. For this reason, this ministry cannot allow anyone to pretend to be in it and yet still say something different. This does not mean that I ask you to stay away from your local church or that your local church is no longer a local church. What I am fellowshipping about is the impact of the ministry for the fighting of the Lord’s interest in His recovery.

The blended co-workers in the Lord’s recovery

June 30, 2005

Ministry Portions
BEING RESTRICTED IN ONE PUBLICATION

One thing that has caused the Lord’s recovery trouble is the fact that we have different publications. If we mean business for the Lord’s recovery, we must avoid any kind of involvement in problems. When we were on mainland China, only Brother Nee had a publication, and the Gospel Room belonged solely and uniquely to him. He asked me to help in the publication work. I did write some books, among which were a book on the genealogy of Christ, a translation of part of Pember’s Earth’s Earliest Ages, and some books on the kingdom of the heavens. I never published anything by myself. I always mailed my manuscript to the Gospel Room, which was under Brother Nee and his helper. It was up to their discernment whether my manuscript should be published or not. I liked to have my writings checked as to whether there might be some inaccuracy in the truth. It is not a small matter to write a book that expounds the kingdom of the heavens. I liked my material to pass through their checking. This helped and protected me. Brother Yu, the eye specialist, translated some of the mystical books, but he did not publish anything. We only had one publication. Everything was published through Brother Nee’s Gospel Room because the publication is really the trumpeting. The sounding of our trumpet is not just in the verbal message but more in the publication.

I hate to see that some of the brothers would try to publish something by copying my points mixed with their “spices” and their “color.” Why do they need to put out some points from my writings in this way? Brother Nee taught us concerning the kingdom of the heavens. I received the basic knowledge from his teaching, but he never expounded on it very much; he simply gave a sketch. It was I who from 1936 began to expound upon the sketch given to me by Brother Nee. After I published my exposition, Brother Nee admired it and told me personally that it was very good.

I hope that some of you brothers would do much development and expounding of all the messages I give. Do not merely speak some points, adding your own “color” and “spices.” This changes the taste. It damages my messages. You must receive the ability to expound all these things. I am not narrow. I would like to see that all of you will be great servants used by God. How wonderful that would be. But I do not like to see that some would merely repeat what I have said, pretending that it is their work with their spices and color.

It bothers me that some brothers among us still put out publications. According to my truthful observation there is no new light or life supply there. They may contain some biblical doctrines, but any point of life or light has been adopted from the publications of Living Stream Ministry. There is nearly no item of life or light that has not been covered by our publications. Based upon this fact, what is the need for these brothers to put out their publications? Because all the publications are mine, it is hard for me to speak such a word. But I am forced to tell the truth. By putting out your own publication, you waste your time and money. You waste the money given by the saints, and you waste their time in reading what you publish. Where is the food, the life supply, and the real enlightenment in the other publications among us? Be assured that there is definitely at least one major revelation in every Living Stream Ministry publication.

I was burdened to publish the Life-study Messages to stress the matter of life because this matter has been neglected, missed, and even lost to the uttermost in today’s Christianity. In most of the commentaries and expositions there is not much of life. Even the term Life-study is a new term. I have used this term for thirty-two years. In 1954 and 1955 I finished a Life-study on the entire Bible, from Genesis to Revelation in Taipei.

This does not mean that I am so capable or so knowledgeable. It all depends upon whether or not our sovereign Lord has given you this portion. Even though I wrote some books in mainland China, I never dared to publish anything by myself. I do not like to have another sounding. Our sounding must be one, so we must be restricted in one publication. My intention in calling a writers’ conference was to encourage you to write something, but not in the way that came out. This fellowship may preserve and protect us from doing things lawlessly.

If some localities would have gone the proper way of the recovery, using all the materials of the ministry, their number would have increased greatly. Some are wasting their time by writing and publishing their own material. This is not their portion. I would like to see that many brothers had this portion with the riches of truth. This would be marvelous and wonderful, but this is our problem today. I advise all of you to take care of this matter. You have to swallow up the dissension. Do not let dissension eat you up.

I hope this fellowship will render some help to all the churches. Take these principles, pray before the Lord, and consider the real situation in your locality. Then you can make some adjustment of the eldership. (Elders’ Training, Book 8: The Life-pulse of the Lord’s Present Move, pp. 161-164, Witness Lee)

FULFILLING THE LORD’S COMMISSION TO HIS RECOVERY

The Lord’s commission is His recovery, and His recovery today is to recover Christ as life, to recover the church as our living, to recover the enjoyment of Christ as everything to us, and to recover all the significances of the church life for the purpose of not only preaching the gospel but also spreading the truth. I believe that this is the unique reason that He has given us nearly all the truths in today’s Christianity. He has given us His truths for us to spread them not only to Christians but even to the unbelievers. The entire globe is under darkness. Every human being on the earth needs to hear the truth, but our spreading of the precious truths we have received has been strongly limited. There have been many strong testimonies concerning people getting attracted and caught by the notes in the Recovery Version, but who has the burden to go out and spread these truths?

Some brothers who are with us do not use these truths when they teach and preach. They teach and preach what they feel is good, yet they do not realize how poor their messages are. Some brothers among us continually put out some publications. I was honest to tell them that there was no light and nothing new in what they put out. The points in our publications are full of life and light, but these brothers would not present them as they are. I could not understand why they have to change the messages we publish to present something in their own style and in their own way. There are no new points of life or light in what they publish. Any life or light in their material is altogether adopted from this ministry. I have been observing this situation among us for years. I would like to see whether some younger brothers among us would be raised up by the Lord to speak something. If I could see this, I would praise the Lord. On the other hand, I have seen some who like to build up something around themselves.

The Lord has commissioned us with His recovery, and He has surely opened up the New Testament to reveal many dear and precious truths to us. What the Lord needs is for thousands of His dear saints who love Him, who live to Him, and who know nothing but His recovery to take one way. Regardless of whether the saints are from Brazil, Australia, New Zealand, Taiwan, England, Thailand, Indonesia, or the United States, we all bear the same burden, take the same way, and spread the same truths. We dispense the truths embodied in the “gold bar,” the Recovery Version. We have no other merchandise! If we would be like this, the entire earth will be taken!

It breaks my heart to see some practicing to have another ministry, using the material of the ministry. We all have to pray, “Lord, rescue me from my ambition to be somebody in the recovery.” We should only know the truths of God’s New Testament economy. We only use one way by one accord, prayer, the Spirit, and the Word. This is what I believe the Lord is after, and this is what we all expect in the depths of our being. Everyone will feel happy about this.

When we go out, we do not go in a dissenting or ambitious way. If you go out with your ambition to build yourself up and I go out with my ambition to build my ministry up, we are finished. The Lord has to go to others. We all need to go out in one way like an army. Then we will have the morale and the impact.

We do not need to do that much. We just need to go out with a pure heart, without anything to ourselves but all things to Him. Just go out with all the truths and the Recovery Version to read to people. I assure you that you will catch someone every week. You do not need to preach your teaching or your kind of doctrine with your terminology. We have to see what the Lord’s recovery is. The Lord’s recovery has been commissioned with a big enterprise to spread the Lord’s truths. He has given us the truths which we are holding. But we need the faithful, pure-hearted ones, who do not have any intention to live to themselves but to Him, to go out to spread these “gold bar” truths. There is no need for you to preach or teach in your way. Open up the Recovery Version and read some of the notes with the hungry ones.

Actually, though, I do not care that much for the increase. I care for the spreading of the truths so that they can get into the needy hearts. If we spread these truths, we will become the faithful servants to serve food to the Lord’s people at the appointed time (Matt. 24:45). Then we will fulfill the commission of the Lord’s recovery. This is where my heart is. I will die to this. I told the brothers in the Far East I will not stop until my entire being is exhausted by this ministry. I hope you all will say the same thing.

If the Lord can gain ten thousand saints in the United States to go full-time with one kind of teaching, one kind of preaching, one kind of material, one kind of publication, one kind of way, and everything one kind, this will be our morale! The wise way is that we all take the full-time way and speak the same thing, think the same thing, present the same thing, and teach the same thing, having the same essence, appearance and expression. Then we will have the morale, the impact, to defeat the enemy. This is what the Lord needs! (Elders’ Training, Book 8: The Life-pulse of the Lord’s Present Move, pp. 123-127, Witness Lee)

THE MINISTRY AND THE CHURCHES

Whether or not a certain church takes the ministry does not decide whether that church is a genuine local church. The title of this message does not say “no uncertain sounding of the trumpet in the Lord’s recovery” but “in the Lord’s ministry.” I am not talking about something in the Lord’s recovery, but I am talking about the ministry. The citizens of the United States may say many things to criticize the government and the commander in chief of the Armed Forces. But when you get into the army and become a soldier, you lose your right to say anything. It is possible to argue, debate, and even fight in the Senate, but even when the senators get in the army and become soldiers, they have to be quiet. There is no uncertain sounding in the army. The ministry is not like the Senate. The ministry is not a Congress for anyone to come here to express his opinion. The ministry has no capacity for that. The ministry is altogether filled up with a fighting spirit. I do not control any church. All the saints who have left the denominations, the divisive sects, and stand on the proper ground are a local church in their locality. They can express their opinions, but they may have nothing to do with this ministry.

Paul told us that all who were in Asia turned away from him (2 Tim. 1:15). The believers in Asia who had formerly received the apostle’s ministry now forsook him. They did not lose their status as local churches due to the fact that they gave up Paul’s ministry, but in fighting the battle, Paul’s ministry could not depend upon them. For Paul’s ministry they could not be counted on. To say that the ministry cannot depend upon a certain church does not mean that that church has been cut off from being a local church. It is still a local church, but we must realize that the ministry is a fighting unit. In this fighting unit there is no capacity and no time for your opinion.

I mean business for the Lord’s interest. I have sacrificed my entire life for the Lord’s ministry. I gave up everything to take the way of the Lord’s recovery. Now I must be faithful to myself. Furthermore, through my ministry on this globe, thousands of saints have come into the recovery, so I must be faithful to them. Many of the saints have given up high degrees to follow the Lord in His recovery, yet it seems what they are in is tending to be disappointing. This burdens me. Some of the saints became what they are in the Lord one hundred percent due to my ministry, and I do not want my ministry to waste their time. I have to do something to insure their investment of their whole being into the Lord’s recovery. They have given up their future in the world, but they cannot have much encouragement in the Lord’s recovery. I have to be faithful to the Lord, faithful to so many of you who have been very much affected by this ministry, and faithful to myself. For this reason, this ministry cannot allow anyone to pretend to be in it and yet still say something different. This does not mean that I ask you to stay away from your local church or that your local church is no longer a local church. What I am fellowshipping about is the impact of the ministry for the fighting of the Lord’s interest in His recovery.

Whatever I would say concerning the home gatherings, the full-timers, the truth lessons, and the spreading of the gospel is not for anyone who does not feel good about my ministry, who is dissenting to my ministry, who is pretending to be here under the ministry yet actually is not. I still love all the dear saints who may fall into this category and still count them as brothers in Christ, but we need to have an army full of impact, and this army has no capacity and no time for anyone to express any kind of opinion. We are fighting a battle. The army began the fighting already in Taiwan. Now we want to see this army increasing to fight the battle not only in the United States but also in Canada, in Central America, in South America, in Europe, in Africa, in Australasia, and in the entire continent of Asia. This is what I want to see. I am not talking about the churches, I am talking about the ministry. The ministry is one thing, and the churches are another thing. These two things can be differentiated in the Epistles written by Paul. Paul’s ministry is one category, and the churches are another category. Paul never tried to force all the churches to follow him in his ministry, but Paul surely had a ministry for the churches. (Elders’ Training, Book 7: One Accord for the Lord’s Move, pp. 74-76, Witness Lee)

Trapped · 08-21-2018, 09:59 PM

I realize the shortcomings of this type of forum as the vehicle for discussion of a letter of this length and concerning what I know is a topic that has caused a lot of problems, so I am not sure how this will go. I'd love to go line by line, or paragraph by paragraph, but it is difficult in a forum format.

What I really want is a sober-minded, non-inflammatory, logical, rational look at the document. I personally see many flaws and double-speak, but I don't want to get into it in an irrational way.....I am looking for more of a "detached" analysis, if you will. A level-headed discussion about it without getting into high emotions. Please note that I have no intention to dismiss the many, many hurts, pains, sufferings, or lives that have found themselves thrown off a moving vehicle and skidding along a gravel highway at 100 mph because of this letter and the ramifications thereof. I have just personally found that if I speak to elders or co-workers in a more analytical way about things like this, they are much more willing to listen and even agree. An emotional response is more than valid given what has occurred in the local churches, I fully recognize that, but within the restrictions of what I am trying to accomplish with this thread, a more detached approach would help.

I don't even know where to start but wanted to get this much written for now so I would be on the hook to keep going.

Trapped · 08-21-2018, 10:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

PUBLICATION WORK IN THE LORD’S RECOVERY

Through Brother Lee’s fellowship over the years, we have long realized that there should be one publication among us. The one publication is not only a testimony of our oneness in the Body but also a safeguard for the unique ministry in the Lord’s recovery. Without one publication, there is no way to preserve the integrity of the Lord’s ministry among us, which is crucial to the practical oneness among the local churches. Brother Lee gave this word of testimony on this crucial matter in the Lord’s recovery:

I guess I can start out with the first paragraph.

1. My first issue is the title. If LSM truly considers the "recovery" work of the Lord to have broadly started with Martin Luther as they say (see 3rd bullet point here: https://www.localchurches.org/beliefs/recovery/), and claim that "the Lord's Recovery" is not a name used to refer to the churches under Nee/Lee, then the title right off is ludicrous.

2. "...there should be one publication among us." To say "among us" is instantly divisive in the Body of Christ, as Nee himself stated. To paraphrase, "if we use the term "we" or "us" to refer to anything other than all the believers in a city, then we are schismatic."

3. "testimony of our oneness in the Body" - I didn't know there was supposed to be a separately grouped entity in oneness within the Body! I thought the whole Body was supposed to be one.

4. "safeguard for the unique ministry in the Lord's recovery" - what does this mean exactly? What is the Lord's recovery, defined? Again, if it goes back to Luther, then Lee/Nee cannot claim uniqueness in anything, and the ones upon whose shoulders they stood should be part of this ministry.

5. I can't even go on, they throw so many overblown buzzwords into the next sentence that my brain short circuits - "no way" "preserve" "integrity" "crucial" "practical oneness" - enough already.

I don't even know if I can do this. Others are more than welcome to jump in and make suggestions for this thread. I just wanted to at least give a place for the One Publication letter specifically.

Drake · 08-22-2018, 07:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

What I really want is a sober-minded, non-inflammatory, logical, rational look at the document. I personally see many flaws and double-speak, but I don't want to get into it in an irrational way.....I am looking for more of a "detached" analysis, if you will. A level-headed discussion about it without getting into high emotions............I don't even know where to start but wanted to get this much written for now so I would be on the hook to keep going.

Commendable Trapped, but there are few threads able to maintain the standard of sober minded, logical, rational without high emotions in this forum. Nevertheless, it is a worthy discussion and your posting the whole document here as a reference may help.

I’m not sure going paragraph by paragraph is the best way because there are clarifications near the back that explain the what is near the front.

Thanks
Drake

Ohio · 08-22-2018, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

PUBLICATION WORK IN THE LORD’S RECOVERY

Through Brother Lee’s fellowship over the years, we have long realized that there should be one publication among us. The one publication is not only a testimony of our oneness in the Body but also a safeguard for the unique ministry in the Lord’s recovery. Without one publication, there is no way to preserve the integrity of the Lord’s ministry among us, which is crucial to the practical oneness among the local churches. Brother Lee gave this word of testimony on this crucial matter in the Lord’s recovery:

This is what Paul told the Corinthians ...

4. Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit.
5. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord.
6. There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all.
7. But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. (I Cor 12)

By mandating their "One Publication" bull, LSM has negated the scriptures. They have robbed the body of Christ of a varieties of ministries by allowing only the ministry of Lee.

Rather than keeping the oneness of the body, this divides the body. This makes all the member LC's "of Lee." The oneness of the body of Christ requires the work of the Spirit thru many gifts and the work of the Lord thru many ministries. LSM has replaced the work of God with the fleshly efforts of a publishing house in Anaheim.

By veering way off the instruction of the scripture, LSM continues to produce the exact opposite results of their published objectives.

Drake · 08-22-2018, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

I guess I can start out with the first paragraph.

1. My first issue is the title. If LSM truly considers the "recovery" work of the Lord to have broadly started with Martin Luther as they say (see 3rd bullet point here: https://www.localchurches.org/beliefs/recovery/), and claim that "the Lord's Recovery" is not a name used to refer to the churches under Nee/Lee, then the title right off is ludicrous.

2. "...there should be one publication among us." To say "among us" is instantly divisive in the Body of Christ, as Nee himself stated. To paraphrase, "if we use the term "we" or "us" to refer to anything other than all the believers in a city, then we are schismatic."

3. "testimony of our oneness in the Body" - I didn't know there was supposed to be a separately grouped entity in oneness within the Body! I thought the whole Body was supposed to be one.

4. "safeguard for the unique ministry in the Lord's recovery" - what does this mean exactly? What is the Lord's recovery, defined? Again, if it goes back to Luther, then Lee/Nee cannot claim uniqueness in anything, and the ones upon whose shoulders they stood should be part of this ministry.

5. I can't even go on, they throw so many overblown buzzwords into the next sentence that my brain short circuits - "no way" "preserve" "integrity" "crucial" "practical oneness" - enough already.

I don't even know if I can do this. Others are more than welcome to jump in and make suggestions for this thread. I just wanted to at least give a place for the One Publication letter specifically.

Ok... so...

I’d like to approach it differently and get the lay of the land from a higher slope rather than start hiking in the canyon so to speak.

Therefore, I ask, what explanation is provided in the document about the document? What does it say about its purpose? What problem was it trying to solve, if any? Is there anything in the document that provides context or explains the situation? In what way do the proposed solutions address the problem and are there alternatives to address the same issue? Is scope defined? Are there limitations defined?

I’d say the document addresses most of those questions.

To your first point Trapped about the “Lord’s recovery”... the scope... I do not find the scope of this document to encompass the broader definition of “Lord’s recovery” beginning with Luther. Brother Lee and the document repeatedly state that a narrower definition is being used... it says “According to the practice established by Brother Nee...” and again “When we were on mainland China...” . This is one of the vectors in the scope of the document ... that is, the document is addressing something in these current phases of the Lord’s recovery. If we were to try to apply the points of the document to the broader definition of the Lords recovery beginning with Luther is doesn’t apply or make sense. So anything stated in the document only applies to the period in the Lords recovery, approximately the last hundred years, till today from His recovery beginning, or part way into,in China.

Drake

Ohio · 08-22-2018, 07:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

4. "safeguard for the unique ministry in the Lord's recovery" - what does this mean exactly? What is the Lord's recovery, defined? Again, if it goes back to Luther, then Lee/Nee cannot claim uniqueness in anything, and the ones upon whose shoulders they stood should be part of this ministry.

Using Martin Luther as the starting point of "Recovery" requires extensive historical revisionism. Without a doubt Luther stood with many Reformers across Europe to work with the Spirit of God. Luther himself, however, declared "I am a Hussite" when he starkly realized that his faith and teachings merely duplicated that of the Bohemian martyr John Huss a century before him. And who was Huss's predecessor? You get the point.

Yes, the dark ages were dark indeed, but there never was a time when the faith or the scriptures were completely "lost" as Lee would want us to believe. In yet another irony, Martin Luther is simultaneously declared the first Minister of the Age (MOTA) and a total failure for the Lutheran state church. Supposedly he began the recovery but ruined the church. Oh well.

The tenets of the "Recovery" are built on the sinking sands of hagiography. It exists merely to serve the legitimacy needs of their MOTA. In principle there is no difference from the RCC's claim that Peter was their first Pope, and the recovery's claim that Luther was their first MOTA. Like the mythological lineage of popes, it really gets crazy when they attempt to establish the lineage of MOTAs after Luther. Anyone ever hear of Madame Guyon? Yep, a bona fide MOTA. Just ask LSM archivists.

Ohio · 08-22-2018, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Drake

Ok... so...

I’d like to approach it differently and get the lay of the land from a higher slope rather than start hiking in the canyon so to speak.

Therefore, I ask, what explanation is provided in the document about the document? What does it say about its purpose? What problem was it trying to solve, if any? Is there anything in the document that provides context or explains the situation? In what way do the proposed solutions address the problem and are there alternatives to address the same issue? Is scope defined? Are there limitations defined?

I’d say the document addresses most of those questions.

To your first point Trapped about the “Lord’s recovery”... the scope... I do not find the scope of this document to encompass the broader definition of “Lord’s recovery” beginning with Luther. Brother Lee and the document repeatedly state that a narrower definition is being used... it says “According to the practice established by Brother Nee...” and again “When we were on mainland China...” . This is one of the vectors in the scope of the document ... that is, the document is addressing something in these current phases of the Lord’s recovery. If we were to try to apply the points of the document to the broader definition of the Lords recovery beginning with Luther is doesn’t apply or make sense. So anything stated in the document only applies to the period in the Lords recovery, approximately the last hundred years, till today from His recovery beginning, or part way into,in China.

Drake

Does this make any sense? Call on Martin Luther et. al. for legitimacy, and then say "oh by the way, we change the rules." Luther, via the printing press, opened the floodgates of diverse writings about scripture. Anybody and everybody now had a voice. And a pen. Only the money changers at LSM think this is bad.

W. Lee led us to believe many things about China under W. Nee. Today I don't believe anything he told us. To believe Lee is to negate every other author, both from within and without the Little Flock movement in China. Either W. Lee is right and all other co-workers and historians are liars, or ... You fill in the blanks.

Actually, in the early days in the US, roughly from 1962 to 1980, there were many writers and publishers within the LCM. Lee was just one of many ministers, that is until he took over and threw the rest of them under the bus. By 2010 LSM's takeover was complete when they excommunicated Titus Chu in Cleveland and Dong Yu Lan in Brazil. They have finally purged the last holdouts.

Now they claim "we have always had only one publication, and that's why we have always been so one."

Hypocrites.

.

05-16-2008, 11:41 AM	#1
UntoHim Grateful Servant Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 2,559	One Publication As Posted At: http://www.lsm.org/onepublication/ PUBLICATION WORK IN THE LORD’S RECOVERY Through Brother Lee’s fellowship over the years, we have long realized that there should be one publication among us. The one publication is not only a testimony of our oneness in the Body but also a safeguard for the unique ministry in the Lord’s recovery. Without one publication, there is no way to preserve the integrity of the Lord’s ministry among us, which is crucial to the practical oneness among the local churches. Brother Lee gave this word of testimony on this crucial matter in the Lord’s recovery: When we were on mainland China, only Brother Nee had a publication, and the Gospel Room belonged solely and uniquely to him. He asked me to help in the publication work. I did write some books, among which were a book on the genealogy of Christ, a translation of part of Pember’s Earth’s Earliest Ages, and some books on the kingdom of the heavens. I never published anything by myself. I always mailed my manuscript to the Gospel Room, which was under Brother Nee and his helper. It was up to their discernment whether my manuscript should be published or not. I liked to have my writings checked as to whether there might be some inaccuracy in the truth. It is not a small matter to write a book that expounds the kingdom of the heavens. I liked my material to pass through their checking. This helped and protected me. Brother Yu, the eye specialist, translated some of the mystical books, but he did not publish anything. We only had one publication. Everything was published through Brother Nee’s Gospel Room because the publication is really the trumpeting. The sounding of our trumpet is not just in the verbal message but more in the publication. (Elders’ Training, Book 8: The Life-pulse of the Lord’s Present Move, pp. 161-162. See the larger context of this quotation in the attached ministry portions.) According to the practice established by Brother Nee in China, the one publication has always been trumpeted by one practical publication endeavor—in Brother Nee’s day by his Gospel Room, during Brother Lee’s years after he left mainland China by Taiwan Gospel Book Room, and during his years in the United States by Living Stream Ministry. Today we must be diligent to continue this practice of the trumpeting in the one publication in a practical way through the publication service of Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room. Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room publish both the past ministry that was delivered to us by Brother Nee and Brother Lee and the ongoing, up-to-date speaking that comes out of the fellowship of the blended co-workers and is based on the ministry materials of Brother Lee and Brother Nee. These are the materials that have been used regularly in the church life in the Lord’s recovery, and these constitute the one publication among us today. When Brother Lee was among us, he took the lead in both the ministry and the publication work. As he released the Lord’s ministry to the churches, he directed Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room to publish that ministry throughout the churches so that the saints everywhere could be kept in the up-to-date fellowship of the one ministry. Because the ministry was released originally in either English or Chinese, he formed Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room as publication offices that would carry out the practical service of publishing the ministry for the churches. Today, by the Lord’s mercy, the ministry continues. Now it is carried out by fellow slaves who serve in a blended way according to Brother Lee’s realization and fellowship shortly before he went to be with the Lord. He called this “the Lord’s sovereign provision for His Body, and the up-to-date way to fulfill His ministry” (A Letter of Fellowship with Thanks, March 24, 1997). It is important to note that Brother Lee spoke directly about the continuation of the ministry among us. He felt that after his departure the ministry should be carried out by a group of co-workers who are blended, just as his own service in the ministry was under his coordination with the co-workers. Further, the need to publish the ongoing ministry still exists, and to this end Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room, a blended service overseen by a group of blended brothers who serve in coordination with the blended co-workers, continue to publish the Lord’s speaking among us in all the seven annual “feasts” and the weekly ministry meetings. In a meeting with the brothers to whom he committed the responsibility for Living Stream Ministry, Brother Lee said, “My burden is for the recovery based on the interpretation of Brother Nee and me. I am the continuation of Brother Nee; I would like to have a continuation of me, and this needs a corporation...The Living Stream corporation will continue this ministry” (from unpublished notes of a meeting of Living Stream, July 12, 1996). He placed the direction of this corporation for the continuation and publication of the ministry in the hands of a group of blended brothers, who labor to fulfill this charge before the Lord. What Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room do, as set forth in the Living Stream’s Articles of Incorporation, is “to promote the enlightenment and revelation regarding the Bible as interpreted by the teachings of Watchman Nee and Witness Lee.” It was Brother Lee’s express wish that Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room would be the sole publishers of his and Brother Nee’s ministry. According to this wish and arrangement, Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room should be responsible for the publication of the ministry materials of these two brothers, and any use of Brother Lee’s materials or of The Collected Works of Watchman Nee should be done in coordination with Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room, and only with their express permission, according to their guidelines, and in proper fellowship with them. This includes the translation of these materials into any language as well as any republication in any form or through any medium. Further, Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room also publish the ongoing ministry in the Lord’s recovery as the extension of the ministry of these two brothers. The ongoing ministry is carried out according to the fellowship of blended co-workers and is based on outlines compiled from Brother Lee’s and Brother Nee’s ministry materials. As has been apparent to all the saints everywhere, this labor produces the same ministry with the same taste as has been enjoyed in all the churches since Brother Nee’s time. The up-to-date speaking among us is published primarily in the outlines of the messages for the seven “feasts,” The Holy Word for Morning Revival, and The Ministry magazine by Living Stream Ministry and in corresponding publications by Taiwan Gospel Book Room. In addition, Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room publish works that support the Lord’s ministry. There are a number of publications which Brother Lee initiated that fall into this category, most notably the journal Affirmation & Critique, which presents the truths of the Lord’s recovery to an academically-trained audience as we have received them from Brother Lee. As much as possible, Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room avoid venturing into other kinds of publications, but according to Brother Lee’s own example, occasionally there may be publications of these other kinds which Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room feel to publish either under their own names or under special imprints that serve particular publication needs. For example, Living Stream Books (as opposed to Living Stream Ministry) publishes God’s Plan of Redemption by Mary E. McDonough, and A&C Press publishes a translation from French of a scholarly study on deification in the early church. At times there may be writings among us that could be considered for publication as part of the one publication among us. As Brother Lee points out in the quote from Elders’ Training, Book above, these proposals should be “checked as to whether there might be some inaccuracy in the truth.” Discernment must always be exercised when expressing matters related to the divine truth, the divine life, and the gospel. The exercise of this sort of discernment not only protects the teaching among us and the spiritual supply to the saints; it also helps and protects those who endeavor to write. Hence, it is proper that those who endeavor to write in this way bring their work to those who take the lead in the ministry and those who take the lead in the publication work, and those who take the lead should exercise the discernment as to whether or not such proposals should be published as part of the one publication. This was the practice when Brother Nee took the lead in the ministry and in the publication work in China, and it was our practice when Brother Lee took the lead in the ministry and in the publication work among us. It should be our continued practice today. Thus, those who wish to write in this way should bring their proposals to the blended co-workers as well as to Living Stream Ministry and Taiwan Gospel Book Room and have their proposals checked to see whether they should be published or not. In every way, this practice of passing everything that we publish through a discerning check is best for all of us and best for the sounding of the one trumpet in the Lord’s recovery today. We all must realize that the one publication in the Lord’s recovery is quite a serious matter. Anyone who participates in it must genuinely have the portion from the Lord to do so, and this portion should be easily recognizable to the churches and affirmed by those who take the lead in the ministry and those who take the lead in the publication work. No one can take up this portion in the Lord’s recovery on his own. While we all have a basic right to publish, in the Lord’s recovery we are governed by the higher vision of serving under the cross in a blended way in the Body, especially when it affects the churches and the dear saints everywhere. Since Brother Nee’s day we in the Lord’s recovery have been “restricted in one publication” (Elders’ Training, p. 161), and this restriction has resulted in one testimony among us. For decades we all have been nurtured and richly supplied by the one publication. The benefits of being restricted in one publication can hardly be denied. But being restricted in the one publication does not mean, and has never meant, that individual churches are not free to produce and distribute materials for their local needs. We have always had publications like this among us, and there have generally been no problems related to these. Songbooks, local tracts, church meeting outlines, testimonies, etc., have long been produced among us without controversy. These are actually not part of the one publication among us in that they do not involve all the churches. These are publications that address local needs. Problems can be caused, however, when these local and non-permanent publications gain larger geographical status. Further, it is particularly problematic when new technologies, such as the Internet, are used to distribute these local publications. The elders should take special care to assure that what is produced for their local churches remains a local matter. Otherwise, damage may result. Although technologies now exist that permit the easy dissemination of material, we should not use these technologies at the risk of causing confusion among the saints and of damaging the one accord among the churches. The elders and saints everywhere should exercise the same caution that Brother Lee spoke of when he testified concerning the one publication in mainland China: all the saints and all the churches everywhere should similarly be restricted in one publication in the Lord’s recovery. Technology today allows almost any individual to publish whatever he or she desires, and it should not be the intention of the responsible ones in the Lord’s recovery to suppress the rights of individuals to express themselves (unless, of course, such expressions are sinful, heretical, or divisive). Some saints have a desire to write church histories, to produce children’s materials, to record music, and even to give and publish messages. Without much effort these can be reproduced in a variety of media and distributed widely, especially on the Internet and on CDs and DVDs. But the fact that these publications can be produced and distributed should not give them any more credence among the churches than anything else that can be published today, secular or religious. These are simply other publications that our brothers and sisters may or may not be interested in. They are not part of the one publication in the Lord’s recovery, and they are not necessarily beneficial to the spiritual good of the saints among us. The churches, through the elders, should be educated to understand this, and the saints and the churches need to discern the value of these publications for themselves. As shepherds of the flock of God (1 Pet. 5:2), the elders everywhere should have a proper care for the churches with regard to publications, and they should guard the flock from things that could cause damage (Acts 20:28-29). As long as the churches do not become platforms for the dissemination of these publications, these publications should not become matters of issue among us. Finally, all the churches and saints everywhere must understand that the matter of one publication is not a matter of the common faith but something related to the one ministry in the Lord’s recovery. The ministry is the sounding of the trumpet among us in the Lord’s recovery, and there should be no uncertain sounding of this trumpet, as Brother Lee has mentioned on a number of occasions. However, the one publication should not become the basis of our accepting or rejecting any persons in the communion of faith or in the fellowship of the churches; it should not be insisted on as an item of the faith. If any are not inclined to be restricted in one publication, these ones are still our brothers; they are still in the genuine local churches. We would like to conclude with these words from our Brother Lee and wish to recommend that the full context of his words be read from Elders’ Training, Book 7: One Accord for the Lord’s Move, pp. 74-75: Whether or not a certain church takes the ministry does not decide whether that church is a genuine local church. The title of this message does not say “no uncertain sounding of the trumpet in the Lord’s recovery” but “in the Lord’s ministry.” I am not talking about something in the Lord’s recovery, but I am talking about the ministry... I have to be faithful to the Lord, faithful to so many of you who have been very much affected by this ministry, and faithful to myself. For this reason, this ministry cannot allow anyone to pretend to be in it and yet still say something different. This does not mean that I ask you to stay away from your local church or that your local church is no longer a local church. What I am fellowshipping about is the impact of the ministry for the fighting of the Lord’s interest in His recovery. The blended co-workers in the Lord’s recovery June 30, 2005 Ministry Portions BEING RESTRICTED IN ONE PUBLICATION One thing that has caused the Lord’s recovery trouble is the fact that we have different publications. If we mean business for the Lord’s recovery, we must avoid any kind of involvement in problems. When we were on mainland China, only Brother Nee had a publication, and the Gospel Room belonged solely and uniquely to him. He asked me to help in the publication work. I did write some books, among which were a book on the genealogy of Christ, a translation of part of Pember’s Earth’s Earliest Ages, and some books on the kingdom of the heavens. I never published anything by myself. I always mailed my manuscript to the Gospel Room, which was under Brother Nee and his helper. It was up to their discernment whether my manuscript should be published or not. I liked to have my writings checked as to whether there might be some inaccuracy in the truth. It is not a small matter to write a book that expounds the kingdom of the heavens. I liked my material to pass through their checking. This helped and protected me. Brother Yu, the eye specialist, translated some of the mystical books, but he did not publish anything. We only had one publication. Everything was published through Brother Nee’s Gospel Room because the publication is really the trumpeting. The sounding of our trumpet is not just in the verbal message but more in the publication. I hate to see that some of the brothers would try to publish something by copying my points mixed with their “spices” and their “color.” Why do they need to put out some points from my writings in this way? Brother Nee taught us concerning the kingdom of the heavens. I received the basic knowledge from his teaching, but he never expounded on it very much; he simply gave a sketch. It was I who from 1936 began to expound upon the sketch given to me by Brother Nee. After I published my exposition, Brother Nee admired it and told me personally that it was very good. I hope that some of you brothers would do much development and expounding of all the messages I give. Do not merely speak some points, adding your own “color” and “spices.” This changes the taste. It damages my messages. You must receive the ability to expound all these things. I am not narrow. I would like to see that all of you will be great servants used by God. How wonderful that would be. But I do not like to see that some would merely repeat what I have said, pretending that it is their work with their spices and color. It bothers me that some brothers among us still put out publications. According to my truthful observation there is no new light or life supply there. They may contain some biblical doctrines, but any point of life or light has been adopted from the publications of Living Stream Ministry. There is nearly no item of life or light that has not been covered by our publications. Based upon this fact, what is the need for these brothers to put out their publications? Because all the publications are mine, it is hard for me to speak such a word. But I am forced to tell the truth. By putting out your own publication, you waste your time and money. You waste the money given by the saints, and you waste their time in reading what you publish. Where is the food, the life supply, and the real enlightenment in the other publications among us? Be assured that there is definitely at least one major revelation in every Living Stream Ministry publication. I was burdened to publish the Life-study Messages to stress the matter of life because this matter has been neglected, missed, and even lost to the uttermost in today’s Christianity. In most of the commentaries and expositions there is not much of life. Even the term Life-study is a new term. I have used this term for thirty-two years. In 1954 and 1955 I finished a Life-study on the entire Bible, from Genesis to Revelation in Taipei. This does not mean that I am so capable or so knowledgeable. It all depends upon whether or not our sovereign Lord has given you this portion. Even though I wrote some books in mainland China, I never dared to publish anything by myself. I do not like to have another sounding. Our sounding must be one, so we must be restricted in one publication. My intention in calling a writers’ conference was to encourage you to write something, but not in the way that came out. This fellowship may preserve and protect us from doing things lawlessly. If some localities would have gone the proper way of the recovery, using all the materials of the ministry, their number would have increased greatly. Some are wasting their time by writing and publishing their own material. This is not their portion. I would like to see that many brothers had this portion with the riches of truth. This would be marvelous and wonderful, but this is our problem today. I advise all of you to take care of this matter. You have to swallow up the dissension. Do not let dissension eat you up. I hope this fellowship will render some help to all the churches. Take these principles, pray before the Lord, and consider the real situation in your locality. Then you can make some adjustment of the eldership. (Elders’ Training, Book 8: The Life-pulse of the Lord’s Present Move, pp. 161-164, Witness Lee) FULFILLING THE LORD’S COMMISSION TO HIS RECOVERY The Lord’s commission is His recovery, and His recovery today is to recover Christ as life, to recover the church as our living, to recover the enjoyment of Christ as everything to us, and to recover all the significances of the church life for the purpose of not only preaching the gospel but also spreading the truth. I believe that this is the unique reason that He has given us nearly all the truths in today’s Christianity. He has given us His truths for us to spread them not only to Christians but even to the unbelievers. The entire globe is under darkness. Every human being on the earth needs to hear the truth, but our spreading of the precious truths we have received has been strongly limited. There have been many strong testimonies concerning people getting attracted and caught by the notes in the Recovery Version, but who has the burden to go out and spread these truths? Some brothers who are with us do not use these truths when they teach and preach. They teach and preach what they feel is good, yet they do not realize how poor their messages are. Some brothers among us continually put out some publications. I was honest to tell them that there was no light and nothing new in what they put out. The points in our publications are full of life and light, but these brothers would not present them as they are. I could not understand why they have to change the messages we publish to present something in their own style and in their own way. There are no new points of life or light in what they publish. Any life or light in their material is altogether adopted from this ministry. I have been observing this situation among us for years. I would like to see whether some younger brothers among us would be raised up by the Lord to speak something. If I could see this, I would praise the Lord. On the other hand, I have seen some who like to build up something around themselves. The Lord has commissioned us with His recovery, and He has surely opened up the New Testament to reveal many dear and precious truths to us. What the Lord needs is for thousands of His dear saints who love Him, who live to Him, and who know nothing but His recovery to take one way. Regardless of whether the saints are from Brazil, Australia, New Zealand, Taiwan, England, Thailand, Indonesia, or the United States, we all bear the same burden, take the same way, and spread the same truths. We dispense the truths embodied in the “gold bar,” the Recovery Version. We have no other merchandise! If we would be like this, the entire earth will be taken! It breaks my heart to see some practicing to have another ministry, using the material of the ministry. We all have to pray, “Lord, rescue me from my ambition to be somebody in the recovery.” We should only know the truths of God’s New Testament economy. We only use one way by one accord, prayer, the Spirit, and the Word. This is what I believe the Lord is after, and this is what we all expect in the depths of our being. Everyone will feel happy about this. When we go out, we do not go in a dissenting or ambitious way. If you go out with your ambition to build yourself up and I go out with my ambition to build my ministry up, we are finished. The Lord has to go to others. We all need to go out in one way like an army. Then we will have the morale and the impact. We do not need to do that much. We just need to go out with a pure heart, without anything to ourselves but all things to Him. Just go out with all the truths and the Recovery Version to read to people. I assure you that you will catch someone every week. You do not need to preach your teaching or your kind of doctrine with your terminology. We have to see what the Lord’s recovery is. The Lord’s recovery has been commissioned with a big enterprise to spread the Lord’s truths. He has given us the truths which we are holding. But we need the faithful, pure-hearted ones, who do not have any intention to live to themselves but to Him, to go out to spread these “gold bar” truths. There is no need for you to preach or teach in your way. Open up the Recovery Version and read some of the notes with the hungry ones. Actually, though, I do not care that much for the increase. I care for the spreading of the truths so that they can get into the needy hearts. If we spread these truths, we will become the faithful servants to serve food to the Lord’s people at the appointed time (Matt. 24:45). Then we will fulfill the commission of the Lord’s recovery. This is where my heart is. I will die to this. I told the brothers in the Far East I will not stop until my entire being is exhausted by this ministry. I hope you all will say the same thing. If the Lord can gain ten thousand saints in the United States to go full-time with one kind of teaching, one kind of preaching, one kind of material, one kind of publication, one kind of way, and everything one kind, this will be our morale! The wise way is that we all take the full-time way and speak the same thing, think the same thing, present the same thing, and teach the same thing, having the same essence, appearance and expression. Then we will have the morale, the impact, to defeat the enemy. This is what the Lord needs! (Elders’ Training, Book 8: The Life-pulse of the Lord’s Present Move, pp. 123-127, Witness Lee) THE MINISTRY AND THE CHURCHES Whether or not a certain church takes the ministry does not decide whether that church is a genuine local church. The title of this message does not say “no uncertain sounding of the trumpet in the Lord’s recovery” but “in the Lord’s ministry.” I am not talking about something in the Lord’s recovery, but I am talking about the ministry. The citizens of the United States may say many things to criticize the government and the commander in chief of the Armed Forces. But when you get into the army and become a soldier, you lose your right to say anything. It is possible to argue, debate, and even fight in the Senate, but even when the senators get in the army and become soldiers, they have to be quiet. There is no uncertain sounding in the army. The ministry is not like the Senate. The ministry is not a Congress for anyone to come here to express his opinion. The ministry has no capacity for that. The ministry is altogether filled up with a fighting spirit. I do not control any church. All the saints who have left the denominations, the divisive sects, and stand on the proper ground are a local church in their locality. They can express their opinions, but they may have nothing to do with this ministry. Paul told us that all who were in Asia turned away from him (2 Tim. 1:15). The believers in Asia who had formerly received the apostle’s ministry now forsook him. They did not lose their status as local churches due to the fact that they gave up Paul’s ministry, but in fighting the battle, Paul’s ministry could not depend upon them. For Paul’s ministry they could not be counted on. To say that the ministry cannot depend upon a certain church does not mean that that church has been cut off from being a local church. It is still a local church, but we must realize that the ministry is a fighting unit. In this fighting unit there is no capacity and no time for your opinion. I mean business for the Lord’s interest. I have sacrificed my entire life for the Lord’s ministry. I gave up everything to take the way of the Lord’s recovery. Now I must be faithful to myself. Furthermore, through my ministry on this globe, thousands of saints have come into the recovery, so I must be faithful to them. Many of the saints have given up high degrees to follow the Lord in His recovery, yet it seems what they are in is tending to be disappointing. This burdens me. Some of the saints became what they are in the Lord one hundred percent due to my ministry, and I do not want my ministry to waste their time. I have to do something to insure their investment of their whole being into the Lord’s recovery. They have given up their future in the world, but they cannot have much encouragement in the Lord’s recovery. I have to be faithful to the Lord, faithful to so many of you who have been very much affected by this ministry, and faithful to myself. For this reason, this ministry cannot allow anyone to pretend to be in it and yet still say something different. This does not mean that I ask you to stay away from your local church or that your local church is no longer a local church. What I am fellowshipping about is the impact of the ministry for the fighting of the Lord’s interest in His recovery. Whatever I would say concerning the home gatherings, the full-timers, the truth lessons, and the spreading of the gospel is not for anyone who does not feel good about my ministry, who is dissenting to my ministry, who is pretending to be here under the ministry yet actually is not. I still love all the dear saints who may fall into this category and still count them as brothers in Christ, but we need to have an army full of impact, and this army has no capacity and no time for anyone to express any kind of opinion. We are fighting a battle. The army began the fighting already in Taiwan. Now we want to see this army increasing to fight the battle not only in the United States but also in Canada, in Central America, in South America, in Europe, in Africa, in Australasia, and in the entire continent of Asia. This is what I want to see. I am not talking about the churches, I am talking about the ministry. The ministry is one thing, and the churches are another thing. These two things can be differentiated in the Epistles written by Paul. Paul’s ministry is one category, and the churches are another category. Paul never tried to force all the churches to follow him in his ministry, but Paul surely had a ministry for the churches. (Elders’ Training, Book 7: One Accord for the Lord’s Move, pp. 74-76, Witness Lee) © 2005 Living Stream Ministry

12-11-2016, 12:51 AM	#2
Koinonia Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 535	Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints I would encourage everyone to listen to the following audio message: Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints given last week in Bellevue, WA by Bill Lawson. This will give a very definite impression of where the LC is today. Recently, due to flagging LSM book sales, LC coworkers have appointed a group of brothers to travel around the US (and elsewhere) pushing LC members to purchase more and more ministry publications--with an explicit view to selling off large stocks of books that have been collecting dust in LSM warehouses for the last number of years. In this presentation, Bill Lawson gives an overview of some of the recent LSM conferences and goes through manipulation after manipulation convincing the audience of their need to buy more LSM products. An accompanied PowerPoint presentation can be viewed here. The same presentation is being rolled out across the country by the other brothers chosen for this task (who are all named at the beginning of the Lawson recording).

12-11-2016, 03:55 AM	#3
least Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 147	Re: "Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints" Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.

12-11-2016, 08:18 PM	#5
Terry Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Renton, Washington Posts: 3,204	Re: "Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints" Constituting oneself with knowledge of an earthly ministry doesn't have a corresponding reality. Still when it comes to fellow Christians not meeting in the local churches, there's no capacity to receive non-LC Christians because they are not denominated by ministry publications. __________________ "Even a neutral has a right to take account of facts, even a neutral cannot be asked to close his mind or close his conscience."- Franklin D. Roosevelt

12-12-2016, 02:09 AM	#8
Evangelical Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 3,979	Re: "Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints" They are not that well written either. For example, the publications are not well written, nor are they written well. Repeat the same things they tend to do. So as to repeat the things they tend to do the same. However, in my experience, many Christians cannot read well, so repeating things the same is not a problem, however we should practice more.

12-12-2016, 04:27 PM	#9
Freedom Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 1,445	Re: "Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints" It seems to me that the LSM made two major mistakes with regards to its publication business. Firstly, they limited their publications to Nee and Lee. By doing so, they have limited the scope of what can be published and since WL has been gone 20 years, there is nothing new to put out. Their product is limited by the aggregate of 2 past ministries, and all they can do now is find new ways to sell an old product. They have have assumed that there will be a perpetual demand for such publications, when it is likely that demand peaked long ago. The other mistake is that the market for LSM publications has already been saturated with existing LSM publications. Take any longtime member and they have likely purchased a good number of LSM publications and a Life-Study set. Thus, it is unlikely that they want to repurchase the newer publications, even if it is the latest CWWL or whatever. It was also my observation that the younger/newer members did not see the necessity to purchase LSM publications except on an as-needed basis. So the all the publications that LSM might have expected to sell in more recent times have likely gone largely unsold. I think the practice of buying every single book that came out was largely a thing of the past. __________________ Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.

12-12-2016, 05:50 PM	#11
Ohio Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Greater Ohio Posts: 10,866	Re: "Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints" I tried to listen to Bill Lawson, I really did, but became exhausted after 15 minutes. So sad, so stale, been thru this for years. "HWFMR ... morning after morning ... but it's just like licking bar-b-que sauce off the chicken." Really? Hold on folks! Wasn't that steady diet of HWFMR, excerpts from the most recent training, supposed to "constitute the reader with the divine riches for the building up of the body of Christ consummating in the New Jerusalem?" Apparently it didn't work. So, buy some more books! Look, we're running a special. Collected Works. Order now and save 45%. Their market is definitely drying up. Go to a campus meeting -- no one even carries a Bible any more. Got a smart phone or a tablet? That's all you need. I'm starting to think that LSM quarantined the GLA and Brazil simply because their regional sales projections were falling off. Regardless of what you may have been told, the LC's exist only to support LSM -- attend their trainings, send your kids to FTTA, and buy their books. My long-time observation is that the anointing on those messages is drying up. I read messages 40 years ago, and they were indeed anointed with holy oil. Not so today. Those same messages are dry and tasteless. It's not a joke. __________________ Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! .

12-12-2016, 07:23 PM	#12
Evangelical Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 3,979	Re: "Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints" Messages are not anointed. People are. If we use our spirit to pray and contact the Lord any boring message becomes full of life.

12-13-2016, 02:38 AM	#14
least Member Join Date: Sep 2016 Posts: 147	Re: "Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints" "HWFMR ... morning after morning ... but it's just like licking bar-b-que sauce off the chicken." Really? Hold on folks! Wasn't that steady diet of HWFMR, excerpts from the most recent training, supposed to "constitute the reader with the divine riches for the building up of the body of Christ consummating in the New Jerusalem?" Not kidding!!!! Buy buy buy, listen ... multiple sets of tens of thousands of pages for yuor consumption. Another 20 years of HWFMR + HWFAR ... it'll be like licking bar-b-sauce + chicken skin. Then need mooooore boooooks, tens of thousands of pages + hundreds of thousands of pages and another 20years later of HWFMR+HWFAR+HWFNR .... THEN will be like licking bar-b-que sauce + chicken skin + a slice of chicken meat ...

12-13-2016, 05:05 AM	#15
HERn Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 740	Re: "Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints" I listened to the whole thing. My take was that it was nervously given with a worry that not enough books are getting on the members' bookshelves. Not once did I hear the word "Bible". I heard the word "ministry" countless times and the word "word" several times. The speaker equates the ministry or publications of LSM with the word, and the only two names associated with their ministry are Nee and Lee, although the speaker did mention Paul once. They say they are rich, but really they are deceived in that their reading only the publications of LSM keeps them in darkness, poverty and separated from the body of Christ. __________________ Christ cares for all His sheep in whatever group.

12-13-2016, 03:46 PM	#21
HERn Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 740	Re: "Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints" Another thing I perceived during Bill Lawson's pitch were tepid "amens". They were polite but noone seemed FTT enthusiastic. What Freedom posted about enthusiasm waning seems spot on. __________________ Christ cares for all His sheep in whatever group.

12-13-2016, 08:15 PM	#25
HERn Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 740	Re: "Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints" "monumental step in church history"? Which church and by whose accounting? Can you imagine Paul saying his book of Romans was a monumental step in church history? Or maybe John about the book of Revelation. I doubt the name Witness Lee will even be known after 100 years much less 2,000 years. It's possible Watchman Nee will be remembered. Does the recovery think fhd writings of WL surpasses the writings of Paul? __________________ Christ cares for all His sheep in whatever group.

12-14-2016, 06:14 AM	#26
Evangelical Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 3,979	Re: "Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints" Well Paul only wrote 15 books over his ministry period of 30 years. Witness Lee wrote over 400 books over a ministry period of about 50 years. Paul did not write sufficiently for us today. In fact Paul did not even write books to explain various things like Witness Lee did, they are just letters from which we must infer many things. The insufficiency of Paul's writings is evident by the prevalence of Christian writings today and Christian bookstores. Otherwise why would we need them? It is remarkable that some Christians think God, knowing that the church would continue or 2000 years after Paul, would not provide people with sufficient written resources to aid their spiritual growth, by people such as Watchman Nee and Witness Lee.

12-14-2016, 07:12 AM	#27
Ohio Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Greater Ohio Posts: 10,866	Re: "Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints" I don't think WL ever sat down and wrote a single book. __________________ Ohio's motto is: With God all things are possible!. Keeping all my posts short, quick, living, and to the point! .

12-14-2016, 11:04 AM	#31
Igzy Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 3,612	Re: "Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints" I kept my green bound life-studies for a long time. They sat in the garage in a cardboard box for years. I guess my original idea that they were a good summation of the Bible stuck with me. Finally I just decided to get rid of them. It felt hypocritical to sell them so I put them in my car and went and threw them in a dumpster. It wasn't an act of contempt, just cleaning out the garage and moving on. I've never regretted it. Besides, the strength of Lee's ministry was never in the details. In fact he often goes way off on the details, particularly about relationships. He was really always about the big vision and that can pretty much be summed up in one book or his Bible footnotes. Most of his stuff is very repetitive to the point of being superfluous. Lee was never very good about practically applying the word to real life. He was always about life being an ongoing process of being blown away by big visions, being motivated by that to do things (attend meetings, give money), and then repeating. What was essentially good about Lee's ministry? Basically to have a real intimate relationship with God, let that permeate your life and cause you meet with other Christians in unity and simplicity for the glory of God. That's what's stuck with me--have a real relationship with Christ and love and receive all believers, don't get hung up on doctrines. The rest was just the details. Some was very good: Resurrection life, indwelling Spirit, glorious riches. But much was just superfluous and even in error: The local ground, mingling, metabolic transformation, spiritual authority, the Recovery, Minister of the Age, one trumpet, quarantining. __________________ There are three kinds of people: sheep, wolves and sheep dogs. I'm a sheep dog.

12-14-2016, 10:40 PM	#38
JJ Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 641	Re: "Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints" The concept of needing "the interpreted Word" from "the minister of the Word" came from Watchman Nee http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=27062AC2C5 It was restated by Witness Lee http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=260328CBC5 http://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=260328CBCA And in recent years, I witnessed "the blenders", coworkers, elders, and saints in TLR teaching that "the interpreted Word" is the LSM publications, and they are better than the Bible itself for guiding your Christian life and "church life". That is one of the things that caused me to run, and run fast from TLR. Paul considered that he was completing the word of God http://biblehub.com/colossians/1-25.htm John and Old Testament prophets gave severe warnings about adding to or taking away from God's Word http://biblehub.com/revelation/22-19.htm That's enough for me to steal clear of LSM "interpreted word" claims, and warn others not to "buy it". Read the Bible yourself, rely on the Holy Spirit first, commentaries second. __________________ And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:14 NASB)

12-14-2016, 10:45 PM	#39
Evangelical Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 3,979	Re: "Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints" If it is correct that we just need to read the Bible for ourselves and rely on the Spirit, then why did God give the church teachers? (Ephesians 4:11). It seems that teachers are not required if we just read for ourselves and rely upon the Spirit. And why did the Spirit lead Philip to speak to this man: Acts 8:30 Then Philip ran up to the chariot and heard the man reading Isaiah the prophet. "Do you understand what you are reading?" Philip asked. Acts 8:31 "How can I," he said, "unless someone explains it to me?" So he invited Philip to come up and sit with him. Did Philip tell the man to "rely on the Holy Spirit first"? No, it was the Spirit who inspired Philip to help the man. Reading the bible for ourselves without consulting others is a sure way to fall into deception. We need teachers and explainers like Philip to help us understand the Bible. This is why we have Sunday School classes. We don't just expect children to read the bible for themselves and not help them understand it. I know the hypocrisy of many in denominations today. On the one hand they hold just a copy of the Bible and claim to be led by the Spirit when they read it, not requiring any other assistance. On the other hand they gladly accept the pastor's messages (such as how to be successful in business etc) which have nothing to do with Paul's ministry, and when they say "give more so you will be blessed more" they are all too willing to part with their money so as to receive a "blessing".

12-14-2016, 11:14 PM	#40
JJ Member Join Date: Jan 2016 Posts: 641	Re: "Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints" Good come back. You have been well trained, as that example was cited by both Nee and Lee as the basis for their "interpreted word" teaching. Phillip's interpretation helped the Eunich to understand the scripture and turn to Jesus. But Phillip didn't tell the Eunich to put his scripture away. And, the Holy Spirit bore witness to both. Dropping any one of these things (help from other brothers, written scripture, or Holy Spirit's guidance) is the problem. I observed saints reading only portions of LSM without the verse references, dead meetings without scripture reading to check what was being said, and praising of Witness Lee and Watchman Nee and/or "the church". __________________ And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth. (John 1:14 NASB)

12-15-2016, 04:54 PM	#58
Freedom Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 1,445	Re: "Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints" I was born and raised in the LC, and as such, I got to experience some of the disconnect in discussion first hand. For example, my family was completely anti-Christmas, even to an extreme. So much so that on days where there were holiday related activities, we were pulled from school. As a kid, I obviously had no idea what was going on, other than the stark realization that I was different than everyone else. Moreover the whole attitude felt punitive. Us kids didn't even know what Christmas was, yet we kids got 'punished' for it in the sense of the social isolation. I've since moved on from the resentment, since what happened is over and done. The reason I bring this up ,however, is to illustrate just what happens when things are imposed as has been discussed. Getting back to the subject of LSM publications, I believe that there is anecdotal value to this type of discussion. When WL started out, I think that people were drawn to him because he was perceived to be a gifted Bible teacher. Thus his ministry and publications had some sort of expository value to people who felt it helped them to know the Bible better. Somewhere along the way, a view developed that WL's ministry encompassed THE truth that everyone needed to be 'constituted' with. This was certainly my view of his ministry, and the view that was continually instilled in me. Notice that I'm not saying that his ministry didn't have any potential benefit. It's just the fact that the entire approach was wrong. Along with anyone else, if we were going to be encouraged to read WL's ministry, it should have been with a personal goal to be able to know and understand the Bible better. That was never the goal. The goal was to be 'constituted' with his ministry. The end result is members, even young members, who can recite spiritual jargon but really have no clue what they are talking about. Maybe a lot of it is just harmless, I'm not out to judge, but I do see it all the time on places like Facebook. The more concerning issue, however, is what happens when all these people run into problems that they're not ready to deal with, problems that reciting spiritual jargon can't solve. Again, I'm not saying that WL's ministry itself is the dead end, it's how it is being utilized and promoted. It is my belief that the current LC approach to WL's ministry has ruined any positive benefit it might have had for the larger Christian community. __________________ Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.

12-15-2016, 05:17 PM	#64
Igzy Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 3,612	Re: "Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints" To me a test of your validity and sincerity as a believer is: Can you pass on your faith to the next generation? The cliche is that the preacher's kids are often the wildest. Witness Lee's son Philip was out of control. It's a real challenge that can be easily blown if you handle it wrong. I went to an event where the writer of the book The Shack (soon to be a movie) spoke frankly about his life. His dad was a Christian worker of some sort, but one who showed very little love for his children. He was well-behaved at church, but abusive at home. It's a sad legacy that is repeated all too often. There is something about we committed Christians who are parents that tends to expect our kids to be good Christians as a matter of course. This won't work. We need to be proactive in a genuine way. My approach is simple and basic: Love your kids. Be holy, but not holier-than-thou. Apologize when you've done wrong. Don't protect your image. Be genuine. Don't be a prude. Have a sense of humor. Teach your kids the essentials: Love. Relationships. Prayer. Faith. Trust. The positive rewards of a life entrusted to God. A little theology is okay, but don't overdo it. They will tune it out. Always bring it back to a joyful and natural relationship with God. Always let them know that they are special to God. Teach them to be content and comfortable with how God made them. Laugh a lot. Have a happy home. Show them a life of sacrificial love. This where the rubber meets the road. This is what God honors. Pray, pray, pray.

12-15-2016, 05:44 PM	#65
Evangelical Member Join Date: Aug 2016 Posts: 3,979	Re: "Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints" How your children turn out is not one of the tests for validity and sincerity of a person's faith.

12-19-2016, 08:41 AM	#81
UntoHim Grateful Servant Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 2,559	Re: "Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints" "further revelation" has gotten false teachers and apostles and their followers in a lot of trouble since the beginning. Most of the time this is because their "further revelation" is untethered from the plain words of the Scriptures, or sometimes the twisting of or misinterpretation of the plain words. Still other false teachers and apostles claim to be bringing us back to the original or "recovered" interpretations/meanings of the Scriptures. In most cases, this term recovered is nothing more than the wolf of heresy disguised in the sheep's clothing of "further revelation". - __________________ Now Unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy (Jude 24)

12-23-2016, 11:01 AM	#94
OBW Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: DFW area Posts: 3,964	Re: Comments on The One Publication by Philip van Dijk One of the biggest flaws in the logic and teaching of Lee and the LRC is that there is something called God's flow that is smaller than all that Christians are doing on the earth through the leading and power of the Holy Spirit. God's flow includes every speaking of the gospel, from fire-and-brimstone preachers to simple homilies in any of the liturgical traditions. It includes the righteous living of His followers as they demonstrate something worthy of note in the world, even when there is nothing spoken. If Christians are in obedience, then God is flowing. In every thing that they do. From washing the dishes to going to the far reaches of the earth to evangelize those who have never heard of Jesus. __________________ Mike I once thought I was. . . . but I may have been mistaken — Edge (with apologies)

12-23-2016, 01:13 PM	#95
ZNPaaneah Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 6,455	Re: Comments on The One Publication by Philip van Dijk It bothers me that some brothers among us still put out publications. According to my truthful observation there is no new light or life supply there. They may contain some biblical doctrines, but any point of life or light has been adopted from the publications of Living Stream Ministry. There is nearly no item of life or light that has not been covered by our publications. Based upon this fact, what is the need for these brothers to put out their publications? Because all the publications are mine, it is hard for me to speak such a word. But I am forced to tell the truth. By putting out your own publication, you waste your time and money. You waste the money given by the saints, and you waste their time in reading what you publish. Where is the food, the life supply, and the real enlightenment in the other publications among us? Be assured that there is definitely at least one major revelation in every Living Stream Ministry publication. (ELDERS' TRAINING, BOOK 08: THE LIFE-PULSE OF THE LORD'S PRESENT MOVE, Chapter 11, Section 2, Witness Lee) I am glad that Witness Lee gave us a truthful observation, it does reveal what he felt. It is certainly judgmental "no new light or life supply there". I kind of wonder who forced him to tell the truth, because if we knew how to do that we might have found out some other things as well. When I read his word "by putting out your own publication you waste your time and money. You waste the money given by the saints, and you waste their time in reading what you publish" I am reminded of the Lord's word "judge not lest ye be judged, for with what judgement you judge you shall be judged.

12-23-2016, 04:42 PM	#96
Igzy Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 3,612	Re: Comments on The One Publication by Philip van Dijk To me the Lee quote that ZNP just provided can be summed up simply as: "This is not God's thing, it's my thing."

12-23-2016, 07:15 PM	#99
ZNPaaneah Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 6,455	Re: Comments on The One Publication by Philip van Dijk When Paul writes about the gifts of the members of the Body, he begins by speaking of “dumb idols.” … In verse 2 Paul reminds them that when they were of the nations, of the Gentiles, they were “led away to dumb idols.” Here Paul does not say they were led away to sins, lusts, or the world; he says that they were led away to dumb idols, in whatever way they were led. No matter by what way they were led, they were led to dumb idols. Paul's use of the adjective “dumb” implies that both the idols and those who worship them are dumb, unable to speak…. But after coming to believe in Christ, they are now worshippers of the living God. It is by speaking that we prove that we are living. Our God is living. The Bible reveals that our living God is the speaking God. Throughout the centuries, especially in this New Testament age, God has been speaking…. Because the God whom we worship is the living and speaking God, we also speak and thereby prove that we are the living members of the Body of Christ. (Witness Lee, Life-Study of 1 Corinthians, Chapter 57, Section 2) This doctrine of "one trumpet" is merely the leading the saints away to dumb idols.

12-24-2016, 07:12 AM	#100
Igzy Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 3,612	Re: Comments on The One Publication by Philip van Dijk The fact that Lee tried to lead the "Recovery" proves the "Recovery" was just his movement. The "Recovery" is not God's move. If it was, no one would be trying to lead it but God. Note the history of the "Recovery" as told by Lee: God raised up people in his good time to "recover" certain truths. But in all instances prior to Nee and Lee, these people did not consider themselves in some special move. They were simply following the Lord. But as Nee came along and especially with Lee, they began to presume to represent God's move and even to have some say in its direction. The "Recovery" thus became self-conscious and self-directing. Put simply, men presumed to take control of it. Whether God's move was ever embodied in the "Recovery" prior to Nee and Lee is really not the point. The point is once Nee and Lee presumed to be it and to lead it they reduced whatever it was to simply their own movement. And that's what the "Recovery" is today, nothing but a movement of human beings. Do they have God's presence at some level? Sure, as do thousands of other collections of Christians. God continues to move, of course, as he always has, completely unobligated to play by Lee's rules or anyone else's. He who sits in the heavens shall laugh, at me, you, Lee, and anyone else who gets too big for their britches.

12-24-2016, 07:18 AM	#101
Igzy Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 3,612	Re: Comments on The One Publication by Philip van Dijk So to put it as simply as possible, once leaders of a group say it represents God in an exclusive way, they guarantee it does not.

12-24-2016, 08:25 AM	#103
Igzy Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Texas Posts: 3,612	Re: Comments on The One Publication by Philip van Dijk This discussion brings to light the LCM's hypocrisy about hierarchies as well. LCMers love to say the LCM is not a hierarchy and that all hierarchies in the Church are invalid. But what is their determination of whether a person is in proper relation with God? It's whether that person is in proper relation to their leadership hierarchy. If a person submits the leadership hierarchy of the "Recovery" then the group regards him or her as properly in God's move. Only then can any work he or she does be regarded as genuine. If a person does not submit the leadership hierarchy of the "Recovery", he or she is regarded as out of line with God's move. Even though it might appear God is working through someone not in line with the "Recovery" hierarchy, that person and his or her work are disregarded. Thus alignment with the LCM leadership hierarchy is their absolute test for spiritual validity, all while claiming they have no hierarchy. By this standard they define God's move by their leadership hierarchy (something they claim does not even exist). They are effectively one and the same. God's hands are tied. He must go through them. Anything else will be categorically rejected. But since the leader at the top of the hierarchy (Lee) has passed on leaving his words set in stone, no further recovery is even possible. Thus "Recovery" becomes an ironic misnomer. __________________ There are three kinds of people: sheep, wolves and sheep dogs. I'm a sheep dog.

12-25-2016, 06:58 PM	#105
ZNPaaneah Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 6,455	Re: Comments on The One Publication by Philip van Dijk The most damaging and dangerous situation for a cult or false prophet is a member that only has one lord, Jesus Christ. I used to think, "why do they care so much about other publications, most of these are non profit, what they publish is essentially free" just like no one has to pay to read or participate in this forum. But that is what is so dangerous. Siphoning money from 10,000 saints is how those in the administration of LSM get their salaries. The most damaging "competition" is from those who "freely received and freely give", that is something they have no way to compete with. If you do not align yourself with the leadership hierarchy (and if the local hierarchy does not align itself with the LSM hierarchy) then they will treat that as the most serious attack on them, while at the same time winking at idolatry and fornication among the leadership.

12-31-2016, 04:17 PM	#107
Freedom Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 1,445	Re: "Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints" I came across a Facebook post and apparently LSM made a big deal about purchasing and reading their publications during their winter training. Here is their latest gimmick: The following are display/library sets offered as packages by the Living Stream Ministry with the purpose of providing churches or individuals with a set of Living Stream publications for physical display and sale of ministry material or to serve as a library for loaning out to individuals. For ordering, please contact us directly. https://www.livingstream.com/en/49-d...brary-packages The 'comprehensive' package is only $4524 . It's sad to think that all the LC members who sacrifice their hard earned dollars and vacation time go all the way to Anaheim only to be subjected to LSM's latest sales pitch. They don't even realize what is happening either. If LSM makes a point encouraging people to read and buy their books, LC members think it's for good reason, without questioning it. The vast majority of LSM's publications are readily available to read online for free, so if people really wanted to read them that bad, they would. It's really that simple. Apparently LSM thinks an increased physical presence of their books in meeting halls and homes is going to result in more sales. They couldn't be more wrong. If nothing else, they better pick more exciting cover art for their books. __________________ Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.

12-31-2016, 08:22 PM	#109
Koinonia Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 535	Re: "Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints" I also saw these posts on Facebook showing a giant video screen advertising these ridiculous library sets as well as other books and book packages. This has to bother some people.

01-03-2017, 11:18 AM	#111
Freedom Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Posts: 1,445	Re: "Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints" As I see it, LSM is definitely taking a big risk by doing what they're doing. LC members sacrifice vacation time and money to attend trainings based on a perception that by traveling to Anaheim, they will be part of the "up-to-date speaking." They feel that nothing else could be a better use of time. As such, there is already the understanding that the training will be used to release the latest 'burden', so I think they are more or less prepared whatever the latest thing is that LSM is trying to sell or pressure people with. The real issue, however, is how well they can sell their gimmicks and make it seem legitimate. When I attended the semi-annual trainings, it was in the mid-2000s and they were talking about the GLA quarantine and the “one publication.” It seemed reasonable that they wanted to 'warn' everyone about the problem, so I didn't read too much into it at the time. I did question the relevance of what was being spoken, as I had no clue to any of the people involved in the scuffle, but I didn't question the larger relevancy. I just assumed that most others knew things that I didn't (but I now seriously doubt that this was the case). At any rate, the point I'm getting at here is that by using their trainings and conferences to promote gimmicky things, LSM risks alienating some of those who would otherwise attend. Before I had any LC-specific concerns or came to this forum, I stopped attending the LSM trainings. It wasn't because I didn't want to go and be part of the 'environment', it was because I realized that there was little point in attending. I realized that I didn’t need to hear all the special ‘fellowship’ that seemed to make it’s way into the trainings. Also, I realized that the church would eventually cover the material from the training anyways (in the HWFMR). Eventually, I came to realize that the material being covered was also questionable, but that wasn't what initially prompted me to avoid the trainings, it was the way the time was being utilized. I would suspect that at least some LC members get frustrated over such things. It's kind of a slap in the face to get confronted with a sales pitch after paying an exorbitant training fee + flight + hotel (I recall that LSM started limiting who they would provide hospitality for). I think LSM is walking on thin ice with what they're trying to do. But that is their problem, not anyone else’s problem. For so long, they have been disdainful towards any notion that there would cease to be an unwavering demand for what they have to offer. Now that interest is waning in a noticeable way, the LSM is scrambling to find a solution. It seems they are willing to take risks. __________________ Isaiah 43:10 “You are my witnesses,” declares the Lord, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.

03-23-2017, 08:02 PM	#113
Koinonia Member Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 535	Re: Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints VIDEO: Revitalized Book Service in a Rented Meeting Place - The Church in Ontario, CA. Encouraging the Saints to Build Up the Habit of Reading We also want to encourage the brothers and sisters to build up the habit of reading spiritual books after every meal and before going to bed. They will gain a great benefit from reading in this way. Finding Ways to Promote the Truth We must have a proper attitude and be positive and aggressive, doing our best to urge people to read His word. If we do not find ways to promote the truth or pray, how can the Lord’s word be spread? If we take the Lord’s word lightly, how can we have boldness to promote the publications among the saints? (CWWL, 1984, vol. 5, “The Faithful and Diligent Spreading of the Truth", pp. 189‐190, 207)

03-24-2017, 03:51 PM	#116
askseek Member Join Date: Mar 2017 Posts: 37	Re: Promoting Reading the Publication of the Ministry Among the Saints This is an interesting thread. Just seeing it for the first time today. Some thoughts: * young people leaving Christianity will likely continue to rise accross the board -- I say this because of the Internet, where atheists have a very loud voice, and overall trends of society becoming more secularized. * I was in FTT for a time, and many of the trainees weren't that healthy in terms of attitude or practice. A large percentage go because of obligation/pressure. Not a good motive for successful training, even though the trainers themselves (Blendeds) seemed to think just getting them there is the main thing, then good things will happen. * Haven't read anything of WL in a decade and gave away my box of books (almost entirely from FTT) years ago.