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Old 03-26-2018, 10:40 PM   #1
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Default Myth Busters LCD Style Program 1

OK today I had the thought that this Local Church Discussions is a lot like the TV show Myth Busters https://mythresults.com/about-mythbusters

So let’s test this premise of Witness Lee:
“Grace in its highest definition is God in the Son to be enjoyed by us. It is not merely something done or given, but Christ Himself our portion glorious”
“Christianity's definition of grace as unmerited favor is too low”

Acceptable tests to prove validity of statements include Bible verses (plural) and actual “church life” testimonials of true events (plural) that demonstrate validity or not.

What say you? Myth or Truth. Busted, Plausible, or Confirmed?
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Old 03-27-2018, 03:06 AM   #2
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My problem with the definition is that it takes the focus off of God and onto us. The stress is on the "enjoyed by us" part. In this, "Christ" by definition can have little resemblance, or connection, to the actual objective historic person witnessed in the gospels and epistles.

Now "Christ" is reduced to fleeting ephemera. Whatever I "enjoyed" today is Christ.

But your subjectivity is shoehorned into his. And the abuse follows. Ask Sandee Rappoport. Ask Bill Mallon. Ask Jane Anderson.

Suddenly, your "enjoyment" is reduced to investing -cough, donating, cough - in son Timothy's motor home business. Or being "one with the office", aka son Philip. Today it's being "restricted by the Body and the fellowship".

"Enjoyment of Christ", as presented, is a ruse to get you to focus on yourself, which brings the types of ruin which I've briefly outlined above.
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Old 03-27-2018, 03:16 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ View Post
OK today I had the thought that this Local Church Discussions is a lot like the TV show Myth Busters https://mythresults.com/about-mythbusters

So let’s test this premise of Witness Lee:
“Grace in its highest definition is God in the Son to be enjoyed by us. It is not merely something done or given, but Christ Himself our portion glorious”
“Christianity's definition of grace as unmerited favor is too low”

Acceptable tests to prove validity of statements include Bible verses (plural) and actual “church life” testimonials of true events (plural) that demonstrate validity or not.

What say you? Myth or Truth. Busted, Plausible, or Confirmed?

That Grace is a person is Confirmed based on

2 Tim 1:9

9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began,

and

2 Tim 2:1
You therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.

We can see that this grace is given to us in the person of Christ and is not a separate entity that exists outside of Christ. God may show "unmerited favor" to a Muslim or Hindu but without Christ, this is not the New Testament definition of grace but an old testament definition.

It is not as if God gives us Christ and then gives us some grace as a separate thing. The common definition is that "grace" is some special favor or blessing that God bestows on people after they have become Christians. However I think the "unmerited favor" that God bestowed on the world was His own dear Son Jesus Christ Himself, who died on a cross for the sins of the world.

The premise is that Grace is in fact a person and not just a mere theological definition (unmerited favor). I say "not just" because Witness Lee did not reject the common definition. It is a true definition but it is not a complete definition if it omits Christ.

Other supporting verses are:

1 Cor 15:10
Gal 2:20-21
John 1:17
Galatians 6:18
2 Cor 13:14
Rev 22:21

and is confirmed by this acronym:

G - God
R - Received
A - And
C - Christ
E - Enjoyed


We have positive affirmation in general Christianity such as this one:

https://www.christianity.com/theolog...-is-grace.html

“Grace” is the most important concept in the Bible, Christianity, and the world. It is most clearly expressed in the promises of God revealed in Scripture and embodied in Jesus Christ.

Michael Horton writes, “In grace, God gives nothing less than Himself. Grace, then, is not a third thing or substance mediating between God and sinners, but is Jesus Christ in redeeming action.”

Let's not confuse grace and mercy, or Old Testament grace (God's good intentions and blessings including forgiveness) versus New Testament grace (in Jesus Christ).
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Old 03-27-2018, 03:25 AM   #4
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My problem with the definition is that it takes the focus off of God and onto us. The stress is on the "enjoyed by us" part. In this, "Christ" by definition can have little resemblance, or connection, to the actual objective historic person witnessed in the gospels and epistles.

Now "Christ" is reduced to fleeting ephemera. Whatever I "enjoyed" today is Christ.

But your subjectivity is shoehorned into his. And the abuse follows. Ask Sandee Rappoport. Ask Bill Mallon. Ask Jane Anderson.

Suddenly, your "enjoyment" is reduced to investing -cough, donating, cough - in son Timothy's motor home business. Or being "one with the office", aka son Philip. Today it's being "restricted by the Body and the fellowship".

"Enjoyment of Christ", as presented, is a ruse to get you to focus on yourself, which brings the types of ruin which I've briefly outlined above.
Your post resembles the annoying running and repetitive commentary of Myth Busters that they do to draw out the length of the show, rather than an actual test which might arrive at some conclusion.
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Old 03-27-2018, 04:16 AM   #5
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Default Re: Myth Busters LCD Style Program 1

Lee's lengthy definitions are not "wrong" in themself, and many over the years have developed by others. But as aron noted, Lee's feel goodisms often became smokescreen for nefarious activities at headquarters.

And we must not forget the context -- his new and improved definitions were contingent upon the general condemnation of all others. He was never content to merely add to the wealth of Christian commentary, rather he had to replace it with his own, at least within his own shrinking sect of adherents.

"Unmerited favor" or "getting what we don't deserve" at least points us in the right direction -- which is God Himself -- rather than this superior attitude as we bought another ministry book on standing order.
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Old 03-27-2018, 06:46 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by Evangelical View Post
an actual test which might arrive at some conclusion.
Here's a test: let's ask some people how much they enjoyed Christ at the hands of Philip Lee.

Or, public shaming, aka "perfecting" and "training"? What does that do to the conscience of the participants and witnesses, and how much enjoyment do you really get with a damaged conscience. I saw WL go after TC in public, and it was formalised, almost ritualistic. TC even said, "I am ashamed" because his troops were not sufficiently inured in The New Way coming out of Anaheim.

Third question: how much does the "Christ" that is "enjoyed" in the local churches affiliated with LSM resemble the actual person in the NT, you know the one who Peter said "went around doing good works"? I've already gone into this before.

I apologise for my unfamiliarity with the television show in question
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Old 03-27-2018, 08:37 AM   #7
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Or, public shaming, aka "perfecting" and "training"? What does that do to the conscience of the participants and witnesses, and how much enjoyment do you really get with a damaged conscience. I saw WL go after TC in public, and it was formalised, almost ritualistic. TC even said, "I am ashamed" because his troops were not sufficiently inured in The New Way coming out of Anaheim.
I have mentioned on many occasions the lifelong deleterious effect this rotten pattern has had on the LC's in the Midwest. I watched an endless trail of beloved brothers, all gifts from the Head to His body, leave the LC's all with one unique "sin": they had a problem with Titus Chu after being shamed and demoralized by him publicly.

And what did that do to the conscience of those who supported TC during those public humiliations? ("Whew! Sure am glad it's not me!") Should not our conscience have been properly trained according to natural human affection and empathetic honor to stand up for the oppressed and bullied.

Read John Myer's comments on this in his Future and Hope:
Quote:
The Midwest, though, typically revolves around one worker, who sets the pace and direction for the ministry of the entire region. This was a pattern personally lived out by Witness Lee while he was still alive. Eventually, sub-lieutenants influenced by him each went to various parts of the globe where there were no peers on their same level and thus few serious checks or balances to their teaching, leadership, and direction.

The belief that this arrangement is somehow spiritual unfortunately rolls out a welcome mat for frequent bad behavior. We must all grant our leaders the grace to have bad days. However that does not include bad patterns. Patterns develop when behaviors go unchallenged, and they go unchallenged because of teachings that tell us to fear, above all else, the spiritual authority allegedly residing in some man.

Under that erroneous assumption, if said authority uses intimidation, public rebukes, temper tantrums, and mocking, it is acceptable because it is all part of the package. Indeed, I have seen godly, senior men bullied and scolded as though they were children.
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Old 03-27-2018, 09:26 AM   #8
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Here's a line from the "Pesher Habakkuk", a commentary on Habakkuk found in the Dead Sea Scrolls. It was written about the priests in Jerusalem (who btw were "on the proper ground").

For the sake of (self) glory they lead many to serve vanity and for their own profit.

It's a commentary on Habakkuk 2:13, if you want to read it.

http://www.moellerhaus.com/peshtran.htm

Witness Lee got you to focus on how you were feeling, (i.e., your "enjoyment"); that put a hook in to lead you by the nose. It was all about the self - once you focus on yourself, then he can manipulate you into the kingdom of himself. It's a house of mirrors.
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Old 03-27-2018, 11:46 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aron View Post
My problem with the definition is that it takes the focus off of God and onto us. The stress is on the "enjoyed by us" part. In this, "Christ" by definition can have little resemblance, or connection, to the actual objective historic person witnessed in the gospels and epistles.

Now "Christ" is reduced to fleeting ephemera. Whatever I "enjoyed" today is Christ.

But your subjectivity is shoehorned into his. And the abuse follows. Ask Sandee Rappoport. Ask Bill Mallon. Ask Jane Anderson.

Suddenly, your "enjoyment" is reduced to investing -cough, donating, cough - in son Timothy's motor home business. Or being "one with the office", aka son Philip. Today it's being "restricted by the Body and the fellowship".

"Enjoyment of Christ", as presented, is a ruse to get you to focus on yourself, which brings the types of ruin which I've briefly outlined above.
To be simplified, having positive feelings you're considered to be in your spirit. If it's negative, you're likely in your mind. For example if something one reads in scripture causes their spirit to be inwardly disturbed, get out of your mind.
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Old 03-28-2018, 06:54 PM   #10
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Default Re: Myth Busters LCD Style Program 1

OK

Thanks to all of you for following the ground rules and refraining from name calling.

Not surprising we have disagreements on this.

I’m going to call the Myth busted due to empirical evidence.

Anyone care to propose a myth for Show #2?
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Old 03-28-2018, 07:46 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JJ View Post
OK

Thanks to all of you for following the ground rules and refraining from name calling.

Not surprising we have disagreements on this.

I’m going to call the Myth busted due to empirical evidence.

Anyone care to propose a myth for Show #2?
No, it is plausible at least and you have not followed your own "ground rules" of an acceptable test. Let me remind you what you defined as the "acceptable test" in the OP:

"Acceptable tests to prove validity of statements include Bible verses (plural) and actual “church life” testimonials".

This seems an acceptable test to me given that Scripture could be considered "theory" and testimonies could be considered "observations" or "data gathering". Yet you have made your decision without considering Scripture.

It seems one needs both Scripture and testimony to be able to call the myth busted or confirmed. Given that I have provided solid foundation of scripture then the myth is at least plausible because no scripture can be found to deny the plausibility.

I provided a plurality of scripture as you requested, and no other poster so far has provided such a thing and in particular, nothing which refutes or denies the Scripture I posted. Every other poster so far has provided only running commentary and opinions, not personal testimony. This is not empirical evidence from experimental observations, this is opinion. On the real TV show they never confirm or bust a myth based only on the collective opinion of the group.

Here's a little challenge for you all:

Please provide a plurality of Scripture verses which defines Grace as "unmerited favor". Since I know you would not be able to find such a definition in the Scripture I cannot see how the myth can be busted. It is at least plausible and with the addition of general support from the idea found in Christianity leads to it possibly being confirmed.
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Old 03-28-2018, 07:55 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Ohio View Post
I have mentioned on many occasions the lifelong deleterious effect this rotten pattern has had on the LC's in the Midwest. I watched an endless trail of beloved brothers, all gifts from the Head to His body, leave the LC's all with one unique "sin": they had a problem with Titus Chu after being shamed and demoralized by him publicly.

And what did that do to the conscience of those who supported TC during those public humiliations? ("Whew! Sure am glad it's not me!") Should not our conscience have been properly trained according to natural human affection and empathetic honor to stand up for the oppressed and bullied.

Read John Myer's comments on this in his Future and Hope:
[FONT=Georgia][SIZE=3][COLOR=Navy]
I cannot see the relevance of this commentary on the matter of busting or confirming the myth regarding the definition of God's grace.
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Old 03-28-2018, 08:09 PM   #13
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I cannot see the relevance of this commentary on the matter of busting or confirming the myth regarding the definition of God's grace.
These are simply examples of LC leaders who obsess over the definition of grace yet completely miss the reality.
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Old 03-28-2018, 08:11 PM   #14
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I cannot see the relevance of this commentary on the matter of busting or confirming the myth regarding the definition of God's grace.
I would rather enjoy God's grace than define God's grace.
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Old 03-28-2018, 08:16 PM   #15
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I would rather enjoy God's grace than define God's grace.
So you support Lee's definition it seems:

“Grace in its highest definition is God in the Son to be enjoyed by us. It is not merely something done or given, but Christ Himself our portion glorious”
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Old 03-28-2018, 08:17 PM   #16
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So you support Lee's definition it seems:

“Grace in its highest definition is God in the Son to be enjoyed by us. It is not merely something done or given, but Christ Himself our portion glorious”
Amen my brother! Isn't WL the greatest?
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Old 03-28-2018, 08:23 PM   #17
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These are simply examples of LC leaders who obsess over the definition of grace yet completely miss the reality.
Talking about it does not translate to a corresponding reality.
In retrospect, how many turmoils in the local churches would have been negated by endless love and overflowing grace? That would have been the reality in Ohio's post. Instead there was contempt for the brothers who parted ways.
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Old 03-29-2018, 10:25 PM   #18
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No, it is plausible at least and you have not followed your own "ground rules" of an acceptable test. Let me remind you what you defined as the "acceptable test" in the OP:

"Acceptable tests to prove validity of statements include Bible verses (plural) and actual “church life” testimonials".

This seems an acceptable test to me given that Scripture could be considered "theory" and testimonies could be considered "observations" or "data gathering". Yet you have made your decision without considering Scripture.

It seems one needs both Scripture and testimony to be able to call the myth busted or confirmed. Given that I have provided solid foundation of scripture then the myth is at least plausible because no scripture can be found to deny the plausibility.

I provided a plurality of scripture as you requested, and no other poster so far has provided such a thing and in particular, nothing which refutes or denies the Scripture I posted. Every other poster so far has provided only running commentary and opinions, not personal testimony. This is not empirical evidence from experimental observations, this is opinion. On the real TV show they never confirm or bust a myth based only on the collective opinion of the group.

Here's a little challenge for you all:

Please provide a plurality of Scripture verses which defines Grace as "unmerited favor". Since I know you would not be able to find such a definition in the Scripture I cannot see how the myth can be busted. It is at least plausible and with the addition of general support from the idea found in Christianity leads to it possibly being confirmed.
Sorry in my rush to get to work I didn’t explain my reasoning for considering the original statements as Busted Myth. And, EV you are right the second of the two part statement “unmerited favor is too low” wasn’t thoroughly reviewed.

I loved that EV provided multiple scriptures to prove Grace is associated only with the person of Christ. However, I agreed based on multiple personal testimonials of actual local church events (also allowed by the rule) that “to be enjoyed by us”, which no one gave scriptural support for, was indeed supported by actual events to be too subjective versus the attributes of the person of Jesus we saw lived out in Jesus and His apostles “who went about doing good”, healing and raising the dead.

OK I’m not the only judge on this. I’m open to other assessments. But hate beating a dead
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Old 03-30-2018, 08:32 AM   #19
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So perhaps “unmerited favor is too low” is plausible at this point? At least until further evidence?

I recalled the song http://www.witness-lee-hymns.org/hymns/H0537.html
which stated Witness Lee’s emphasis on the subjective Christ. But, our audience suggested checks and balances as to where that subjective experience of Christ might lead.

I recall that Paul used the term grace when describing participating in the donation of money to help the saints in war torn Jerusalem.

While looking for that verse I found this: http://biblehub.com/philippians/1-11.htm.
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Old 03-30-2018, 04:24 PM   #20
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So perhaps “unmerited favor is too low” is plausible at this point? At least until further evidence?

I recalled the song http://www.witness-lee-hymns.org/hymns/H0537.html
which stated Witness Lee’s emphasis on the subjective Christ. But, our audience suggested checks and balances as to where that subjective experience of Christ might lead.

I recall that Paul used the term grace when describing participating in the donation of money to help the saints in war torn Jerusalem.

While looking for that verse I found this: http://biblehub.com/philippians/1-11.htm.

I understand Lee to mean defining grace apart from Christ is "too low" . Some may see Gods grace in his provision of material things only. But if we say that Grace is unmerited favor found in the person of Christ that is not so "low".

I believe Lees use of the terms high and low is merely to convey from which angle we view it. Low refers to humanities viewpoint and it sees what we can get from God. High refers to Gods viewpoint and is about what God has given.

Low: Grace is me getting lots of favor and blessings from God, both physical and spiritual
High: Grace is God giving His Son and the ability for us to know Him as Grace

Grace is a term that can allow multiple definitions and understandings. Like the term love. We could say that Agape love is higher than eros love and defining love as eros only would be "too low".
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Old 04-01-2018, 08:57 AM   #21
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I found the section of scripture that uses the term grace related to collecting and delivering money from Macedonian and Greek saints to suffering Jerusalem saints:

http://biblehub.com/blb/2_corinthians/8.htm

I also put the word grace into the search window of Bible Hub and a treasure trove of great old and New Testament verses came up.

Enjoying God’s grace to us is fantastic, but perhaps there is an objective standard in these verses: enjoying God’s grace to us in Christ should result in compassion and giving toward our fellow believers, “glory towards the Lord”, and “taking great care to do what is right, not only before the Lord, but also before men.”
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Old 04-02-2018, 06:12 AM   #22
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Praise God!
By grace we are saved!
http://biblehub.com/blb/ephesians/2.htm
Unmerited indeed!
Is favor too low a word for this?
We’ll be praising and thanking God forever. And, God will display the masterpiece of His workmanship for all to see in the ages to come.
No wonder we struggle to define grace.
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Old 04-03-2018, 09:48 AM   #23
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Quote:
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OK today I had the thought that this Local Church Discussions is a lot like the TV show Myth Busters https://mythresults.com/about-mythbusters

So let’s test this premise of Witness Lee:
“Grace in its highest definition is God in the Son to be enjoyed by us. It is not merely something done or given, but Christ Himself our portion glorious”
“Christianity's definition of grace as unmerited favor is too low”

Acceptable tests to prove validity of statements include Bible verses (plural) and actual “church life” testimonials of true events (plural) that demonstrate validity or not.

What say you? Myth or Truth. Busted, Plausible, or Confirmed?
This is the thing: Paul's teachings were in Greek, and the Greek words used had common meanings- this is what language is all about- terms with accepted common meanings. If Paul was trying to convey a WL definition, he would have written differently- different words. Paul used the saying "grace to you from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ" in all his epistles.
WL coming 1900 years later and trying to give an other than common definition to grace, and calling the common Greek definition low, is really saying that Paul had a low or incomplete understanding of grace. Particularly to those who view the scripture as "God breathed", of the Spirit, this would imply that Lee felt superior in understanding and his teachings were above original scripture. Do we see this thought carried out among Lee's disciples? Lee's definition actually alters the meaning Paul used in introducing his epistles. Paul did not use the phrase Grace to you from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ in a casual, hi, how are you, manner; it conveyed the Christian thought and the gospel.

I say myth, and distortion of truth, and the words of an upstart for Lee. Those who follow Lee and push LSM create their own reality, their own religion, and try to overlap their religion with actual scripture to gain converts.
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Old 04-03-2018, 03:58 PM   #24
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This is the thing: Paul's teachings were in Greek, and the Greek words used had common meanings- this is what language is all about- terms with accepted common meanings. If Paul was trying to convey a WL definition, he would have written differently- different words. Paul used the saying "grace to you from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ" in all his epistles.
WL coming 1900 years later and trying to give an other than common definition to grace, and calling the common Greek definition low, is really saying that Paul had a low or incomplete understanding of grace. Particularly to those who view the scripture as "God breathed", of the Spirit, this would imply that Lee felt superior in understanding and his teachings were above original scripture. Do we see this thought carried out among Lee's disciples? Lee's definition actually alters the meaning Paul used in introducing his epistles. Paul did not use the phrase Grace to you from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ in a casual, hi, how are you, manner; it conveyed the Christian thought and the gospel.

I say myth, and distortion of truth, and the words of an upstart for Lee. Those who follow Lee and push LSM create their own reality, their own religion, and try to overlap their religion with actual scripture to gain converts.

There is no one clear definition of grace. Even Pauls is different from others.
It is explained in detail here..
https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/grace/

Here are 7 definitions:

Grace [T] [B]:
Of form or person ( Proverbs 1:9 ; 3:22 ; Psalms 45:2 ).
Favour, kindness, friendship ( Genesis 6:8 ; 18:3 ; 19:19 ; 2 Tim 1:9 ).
God's forgiving mercy ( Romans 11:6 ; Ephesians 2:5 ).
The gospel as distinguished from the law ( John 1:17 ; Romans 6:14 ; 1 Peter 5:12 ).
Gifts freely bestowed by God; as miracles, prophecy, tongues ( Romans 15:15 ; 1 Corinthians 15:10 ; Ephesians 3:8 ).
Christian virtues ( 2 Corinthians 8:7 ; 2 Pet 3:18 ).
The glory hereafter to be revealed ( 1 Peter 1:13 ).
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Old 04-07-2018, 07:53 AM   #25
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Thanks for posting the link to the excellent review of the Old and New Testament uses of the words translated to English as grace Evangelical and more Bible references.

After all this, I have to say regarding the original Lee definition of grace:

First sentence - “Busted”, again as being too subjective without the objective proofs of God’s outworking of His grace in our lives evidenced by:
  1. sanctification and righteousness in all we do
  2. power of the Holy Spirit
  3. ministry to felllow members for building up
  4. good works to our neighbors
  5. giving all credit, praise, and glory to God for anything and everything He does through us

Second sentence: Plausable

Thanks to all who contributed to the discussion. I believe this is an example of the power of dialogue among believers with different views, which this web site promotes, toward gaining more insight into Bible truth.
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Old 04-07-2018, 11:19 AM   #26
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This is the thing: Paul's teachings were in Greek, and the Greek words used had common meanings- this is what language is all about- terms with accepted common meanings. If Paul was trying to convey a WL definition, he would have written differently- different words. Paul used the saying "grace to you from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ" in all his epistles.
WL coming 1900 years later and trying to give an other than common definition to grace, and calling the common Greek definition low, is really saying that Paul had a low or incomplete understanding of grace. Particularly to those who view the scripture as "God breathed", of the Spirit, this would imply that Lee felt superior in understanding and his teachings were above original scripture. Do we see this thought carried out among Lee's disciples? Lee's definition actually alters the meaning Paul used in introducing his epistles. Paul did not use the phrase Grace to you from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ in a casual, hi, how are you, manner; it conveyed the Christian thought and the gospel.

I say myth, and distortion of truth, and the words of an upstart for Lee. Those who follow Lee and push LSM create their own reality, their own religion, and try to overlap their religion with actual scripture to gain converts.
I guess we'd understand Paul better if we had transcripts of his speaking's to the churches. Then we'd be on the 'inside' of his words, of the little bit that have come down to us today.

There's been attempts to fill that missing information in. There's the 3rd Epistle to the Corinthians, and a letter back to Paul, from the Corinthians, that are pseudepigraphal and apocryphal, respectively.

But Evangelical has got it when it comes to the meaning(s) of grace. I can look up every use of the word grace in my Bible study software, and it verifies all the meanings Evangelical listed.

Maybe we can't know what Paul was thinking, concerning the word grace, but we do have context to help us understand what he prolly meant.

Personally, and I suppose subjectively, I'm delighted that I'm saved by grace. Cuz if it depended on me ... there'd be no hope.
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Old 04-10-2018, 09:06 AM   #27
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There is no one clear definition of grace. Even Pauls is different from others.
It is explained in detail here..
https://www.biblestudytools.com/dictionary/grace/

Here are 7 definitions:

Grace [T] [B]:
Of form or person ( Proverbs 1:9 ; 3:22 ; Psalms 45:2 ).
Favour, kindness, friendship ( Genesis 6:8 ; 18:3 ; 19:19 ; 2 Tim 1:9 ).
God's forgiving mercy ( Romans 11:6 ; Ephesians 2:5 ).
The gospel as distinguished from the law ( John 1:17 ; Romans 6:14 ; 1 Peter 5:12 ).
Gifts freely bestowed by God; as miracles, prophecy, tongues ( Romans 15:15 ; 1 Corinthians 15:10 ; Ephesians 3:8 ).
Christian virtues ( 2 Corinthians 8:7 ; 2 Pet 3:18 ).
The glory hereafter to be revealed ( 1 Peter 1:13 ).
All of these lie within the Greek meaning of grace as used at the time of writings.
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Old 04-12-2018, 09:34 PM   #28
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So for Myth Busters LCD Style Program 2 let's take up what awareness posted (Post #20) on the DCP thread from the DCP's copyrighted quote of "what Ron Kangas really said about "The Acting God" (please read that Post in its entirety for the complete DCP quote):

Following quotes and commentary on Phil 1:20-21; 3:9, 2 Cor 4:2, Gal 2:20, John 17:17 and John 14:6 then concerning 2 Cor. 5:20 - "On behalf of Christ then we are 'ambassadors, as God entreats you through us ; we beseech you on behalf of Christ, Be reconciled to God" footnote 1 on verse 5:20 "The apostles were commissioned with a definite ministry, to represent Christ to accomplish God's purpose
For Paul to say that God was entreating the believers in Corinth through the apostles means that the apostles were one with God and with His desire to reconcile believers to Himself, not accounting their offenses to them, and putting in us the word of reconciliation. In this sense they were the acting God."

So in the context of 2 Cor. 5:20, is the bolded part (I bolded it) Myth?

Acceptable tests to prove validity include Bible verses (plural) and actual "church life" testimonials of true events (plural) that demonstrate validity or not.

And recall I liken this to the TV show Myth Busters:
https://mythresults.com/about-mythbusters

What say you? Myth or Truth. Busted, Plausible, or Confirmed
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Old 04-13-2018, 02:41 AM   #29
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So for Myth Busters LCD Style Program 2 let's take up what awareness posted (Post #20) on the DCP thread from the DCP's copyrighted quote of "what Ron Kangas really said about "The Acting God" (please read that Post in its entirety for the complete DCP quote):

Following quotes and commentary on Phil 1:20-21; 3:9, 2 Cor 4:2, Gal 2:20, John 17:17 and John 14:6 then concerning 2 Cor. 5:20 - "On behalf of Christ then we are 'ambassadors, as God entreats you through us ; we beseech you on behalf of Christ, Be reconciled to God" footnote 1 on verse 5:20 "The apostles were commissioned with a definite ministry, to represent Christ to accomplish God's purpose

For Paul to say that God was entreating the believers in Corinth through the apostles means that the apostles were one with God and with His desire to reconcile believers to Himself, not accounting their offenses to them, and putting in us the word of reconciliation. In this sense they were the acting God."

So in the context of 2 Cor. 5:20, is the bolded part (I bolded it) Myth?

Acceptable tests to prove validity include Bible verses (plural) and actual "church life" testimonials of true events (plural) that demonstrate validity or not.
I say there are at least three ways to answer.

1. There is only one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. All other mediatory agencies are obviated. ~1 Timothy 2:5

2. The Centurion said to Jesus (through his ambassadors), "I also am a man under authority, and I tell this one, 'Go', and he goes, and another, 'Come', and he comes, and another, 'Do this' and he does it."

The Centurion was the ambassador of Caesar, and everything he spoke had the weight of Caesar. Thus the servants obeyed without hesitation. He knew Jesus was also an ambassador from God ("No one can do the things you do unless he comes from God" ~John 3:2). The Centurion knew that Jesus could simply speak a word and his servant would be healed. Jesus' response clearly validated the speaking of the Centurion.

3. God also uses messengers as mediators. "God made it known by sending His angel to His servant John" ~Revelation 1:1

Also look at the angel Gabriel speaking to John's father Zecharias, and to Mary, and the angels to the shepherds keeping watch over the flocks at night, as the gospel narratives opened. None of this disappeared from the consciousnesses of the writers of the NT, as we can see in Revelation 1:1. It was understood and continually referenced from the start of the gospels to the end of the NT (see, e.g., where the angel let Peter out of jail).
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God uses mediators, or agents. All of us are "anointed"; all can proclaim the good news, and heal, and teach, and shepherd, and comfort. All of us should. There is no "deputy God" the way the LSM teaches. This supposed elevation of Paul as some 'super-apostle' above all the rest is pure fiction. Only the simple and gullible would bite on that hook. By now this is plain (see Steve Isitt's 'Hiding History' essay) that it's a vehicle for some to dominate the flock. Only those who are willing to be dominated will let themselves be sucked in by the argument. The rest should see that this is a ruse, used by those who wish to spy out our freedom and lead us back into slavery. ~Gal 2:4-13

When the disciples began to argue about which of them was deputy God, Jesus put an end to it, right quick. Why re-visit the subject? It's dead; it's busted myth. Drop it.
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Old 04-13-2018, 05:49 AM   #30
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For Paul to say that God was entreating the believers in Corinth through the apostles means that the apostles were one with God and with His desire to reconcile believers to Himself, not accounting their offenses to them, and putting in us the word of reconciliation. In this sense they were the acting God."
IIRC, the first time I heard mention of this "acting God" nonsense came during the I Samuel Training, and referred to Samuel. WL may have introduced this locally prior to that, referring to Paul.

This evil myth is no different than the Catholic teachings concerning the Pope. Supposedly he is the "Vicar" of Christ, His earthly representative, conflicting with the Spirit of Jesus, who is His true representative. Coupled with this is their "infallibility" doctrine which both the Pope and the MOTA enjoy, which only serves to place their own teachings above that of Scripture.

Those of us in the Midwest LC's watched this unfold first hand. Lee's minions at LSM were permitted to violate scripture regularly to carry out their heretical and divisive quarantines and lawsuits in all the Midwest LC's.

One little known irony about this is when Israel clamored for a king, which btw was offensive to Jehovah, it was because Samuel's children were so bad, "turning aside after lucre, taking bribes, perverting justice." ( I Samuel 8) In this regard the sons of WL were similar to those of Eli and Samuel. (I Samuel 1)
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Old 04-15-2018, 04:00 PM   #31
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The Acting God? Not
The term “The Acting God”, let’s examine it.
First of all “The”. Why is the capitalized article here? Did the apostles ever use this term about themselves? “The anything”? No, it was always “an apostle”, “apostles, “ambassadors”, or better yet “imitators of God” (see below). So, let’s ditch it.
Second “Acting”. Today’s English definition of “Acting” as a noun is “the art or practice of representing a character on a stage or before cameras, according to Merriam-Webster.” As an adjective it is “temporarily doing the duties of another person.”
Several New Testament verses say the apostles, and the believers who follow them are imitators of God and of the Lord:
Ephesians 5:1 http://biblehub.com/ephesians/5-1.htm
1 Thessalonians 1:6 http://biblehub.com/1_thessalonians/1-6.htm
Hebrews 6:12 http://biblehub.com/hebrews/6-12.htm
The Greek word in all of these verses is mimétés. The definition of which is seen in the following link: http://biblehub.com/greek/3402.htm
So is “acting” the same as “being an imitator”? Close, but not exactly. So, let’s ditch the word “acting” and use “imitators” with the definition given above.
Third “God”. Besides saying they were imitators of God, ambassadors of Christ, sons or children of God, did the aposles ever use the term God when describing themselves? Of course not. They would find it reprehensible for Christ’s followers to think of them as God or gods. Acts 14:8-18 http://biblehub.com/bsb/acts/14.htm and Acts 3:12; 4:8-12 .
Although the people regarded the apostles highly, the believers were brought to the Lord Acts 5:12-1; 9:34 ;11:24 and directed to pray to the Lord Acts 8:22.
They did say that they “spoke the word of God” and that the believers received as such, and not the word of men 1 Thessalonians 2:13 http://biblehub.com/bsb/1_thessalonians/2.htm.
Also, Paul was said to be Jesus’ “chosen instrument to carry His name before the Gentiles and their kings, and before the people of Israel. Acts 9:15.
So, let’s be very careful and only say exactly what the Bible says about the apostles and ditch the term “The Acting God” for them.
So, since close only counts in horseshoes and hand grenades, and the apostles want us to not miss the mark (1 Timothy 1:6;6:21; 2 Tim 2:18 http://biblehub.com/greek/795.htm ), let’s stick to what they said and not invent our own terms like Witness Lee did.
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Old 04-24-2018, 09:34 PM   #32
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OK, since discussion of Program 2 died out, and the gospel was always about God, His Christ, and God's gift of the Holy Spirit not the apostles. How dare anyone, even an apostle including Paul or Lee shift the focus to the messengers rather than the message!
I'll opine that the apostles as "acting god" is Myth based on both empirical (actual local church experiences of where this leads) and scriptural evidence to the contrary.

I've got an idea for Program 3 (Lee's definition of God's eternal purpose). But, does anyone else want to offer a topic first?

We need not restrict statements to test to Nee, Lee, or their followers. There are plenty of other ministries to discuss and possibly debunk too. I just tend to focus on Nee, Lee, and their followers because of this web site's title and my own 37 year association with their teachings and practices.
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Old 04-25-2018, 02:42 AM   #33
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JJ,

To me the most popular program might be the most profitable. I'd recommend busting the myth of the "high peak gospel"; conversely the proposition that there is a "low" gospel. Those are subjective assessments made by a man whose self interest (promoting his ministry and himself as minister) caused bias in terms like "high" and "low".

If you look at Paul's epistle to the Roman's, he repeatedly associated the word "gospel" with the resurrection. See e.g., Rom 1:1-4 with verse 16 (connecting word is 'power' - the power that raised Jesus from the dead). See also the confession of faith. "If you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that God has raised him from the dead you will be saved"
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Old 04-25-2018, 09:25 AM   #34
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JJ,

To me the most popular program might be the most profitable. I'd recommend busting the myth of the "high peak gospel"; conversely the proposition that there is a "low" gospel. Those are subjective assessments made by a man whose self interest (promoting his ministry and himself as minister) caused bias in terms like "high" and "low".

If you look at Paul's epistle to the Roman's, he repeatedly associated the word "gospel" with the resurrection. See e.g., Rom 1:1-4 with verse 16 (connecting word is 'power' - the power that raised Jesus from the dead). See also the confession of faith. "If you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that God has raised him from the dead you will be saved"
Aron, The so called high gospel is fundamental to understanding the LC mentality. It provides another way in which to separate themselves and feel superior (higher) than other Christians. All of their jargon, high gospel MOA, ground of oneness, etc serves the same function. They create a word, an idea or a principle and then use their usage/ understanding of it to belittle others who don't use it or who don't follow it, like meeting on the ground of oneness. It's even more nefarious than belittling, in fact. They use it to say others are Christless or without the blessing. They use lack of adherence to quarantine and excommunicate. As if these made up words and slogans were fundamental and accepted truths.
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Old 04-25-2018, 09:54 AM   #35
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JJ,

To me the most popular program might be the most profitable. I'd recommend busting the myth of the "high peak gospel"; conversely the proposition that there is a "low" gospel. Those are subjective assessments made by a man whose self interest (promoting his ministry and himself as minister) caused bias in terms like "high" and "low".

If you look at Paul's epistle to the Roman's, he repeatedly associated the word "gospel" with the resurrection. See e.g., Rom 1:1-4 with verse 16 (connecting word is 'power' - the power that raised Jesus from the dead). See also the confession of faith. "If you believe in your heart and confess with your mouth that God has raised him from the dead you will be saved"
Couple this with Paul's desire to preach "Christ and Him crucified," and we have the highest gospel of all.

Where's that verse in the great commission charging us to preach the "proper ground of the church?"
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Old 04-25-2018, 04:08 PM   #36
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Couple this with Paul's desire to preach "Christ and Him crucified," and we have the highest gospel of all.

Where's that verse in the great commission charging us to preach the "proper ground of the church?"
If you look at Acts 1:3 it was all about the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. This was the singular event in human history, which gave every other event, including the crucifixion, their meaning.

If it happened, then we have hope. If it didn't, then we have no hope; we are the most hopeless. ~1 Cor 15:14-19

In Acts 1:3 Jesus didn't give them "irrefutable proofs" of his sevenfold intensification during those 40 days; no we had to wait for Lee's strained speculations for that. Or the 'gospel of the church', in which we were induced to take our eyes off Jesus and place them on LSM's captive assemblies.

The gospel is not about the church, the ministry, or the oneness. It is about Jesus Christ; how God raised him from the dead and gave him glory, and a name which is above every name, both in this age and that which is to come.

Everything before this singular event looked to it; everything afterward got its sole reference from it. Nothing has any meaning apart from it. It was the moment that fallen creation became new creation. "Behold, I make all things new".

I'm sure that Witness Lee gave a couple of good messages on the resurrection, somewhere. Then he moved on to other pursuits.
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Old 04-26-2018, 01:13 PM   #37
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I don't have scripture in front of me, so forgive me for being vague. I believe that both epistles to Hebrews and Ephesians talk about peace and reconciliation, and Christ's role therein.

Ephesians in particular is interesting. There was a wall in the temple, separating the outer and inner courts. On the wall hung a sign: "No gentiles can go beyond here". Christ broke down that wall between the "holy people of God" and the "unclean gentile dogs", so making peace. Read Ephesians 2:14 - it's quite explicit.

Then the gentiles kicked out the Jews. Cyril of Alexandria (re: riots and murder of Hypatia), John Chrysostom, Augustine, Ambrose, and others were judgmental and adversarial. It seems as if every tribe and tongue and nation were indeed invited into to kingdom, except the original one.

Then, not surprising, the gentile nations began warring. The "Chalcedon rift" of the 4th century was ostensibly over the " nature" of Christ, but it was really about power- who got the last word, Antioch, or Rome, Constantinople, or Alexandria?

The peace was gone, interestingly while Christianity was ideologically ascendant. Syria, Ethiopia, Libya, Persia(Iran), Turkey, Egypt, Greece, Italy - all were heavily Christianised.

Today it is still "the way of the gentiles" from what I can see. Organisational formulations and doctrines are the pathways to power. "Do what I say and there will be peace". . . .hello Mssrs Dong. Chu, Nee, Lee, and Blendeds Wee.
The gentiles had the "high peak gospel" from the Jews. Faith in the name of Jesus Christ, resurrected from the dead and given glory and honour and power, brings eternal life. Pretty good stuff. Attractive. Many came forward and confessed.

Then the gentiles started putting conceptual overlays. It's what they did - "the Greeks seek wisdom" said Paul. ~1 Cor 1:22. And the conceptual overlays, such as the "nature" of Christ, brought in confusion and disorientation. See the quote above.

The premise here is that if we pay attention to the gospel once delivered for all (e.g., Jude 3) we'll find oneness. If we seek oneness, we'll find confusion, disarray. If we pay heed to the gospel promised in the prophets (Rom 1:2) we'll get peace and reconciliation. If we seek peace and reconciliation. . . what? At best, ephemera. (The LC sought "enjoyment" but it was subsumed by Witness Lee; it was a vapour.)

Only Jesus Christ is real. His resurrection from the dead was the proof God furnished to all. See Peter's speech on Pentecost. Peter the Galilean fisherman could have not been more plain. See Acts 2:36; Paul essentially repeated the speech verbatim in Acts 13.

The truth is Jesus. The way is Jesus. The life is Jesus. The resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead makes all this plain. Either it happened or it didn't - take your pick. For me, the die has been cast. My lot has been placed in the "pleasant place", with Jesus, by faith. ~Psalm 16:6

Nothing can replace this gospel and this faith; it was delivered once, for all.
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Old 04-27-2018, 06:13 AM   #38
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Thanks for the suggestion and great points related to it, guys. I was struck by exactly what it was the apostles preached throughout Acts, and what they weren’t recorded saying recently. And it was along these lines.

I’ll see if I can find Lee and/or blendeds exact quotes regarding “the high gospel” to reference this weekend, so we start not with a straw man.

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Old 04-27-2018, 01:18 PM   #39
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Thanks for the suggestion and great points related to it, guys. I was struck by exactly what it was the apostles preached throughout Acts, and what they weren’t recorded saying recently. And it was along these lines.
If you look at Paul's speaking in Acts 24 - 26, it was indeed a long these lines. It was about the resurrection of the dead, and the judgment to come, and the place of Jesus Christ in this as the firstborn from the dead. Over and over, Paul spoke this theme to Felix, to Festus, and to Agrippa.

It is increasingly becoming my firm conviction that nothing should ever distract or dissuade us from this gospel.
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Old 04-27-2018, 09:10 PM   #40
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I agree with you, but taking on this “Lee’s High gospel” vs “Christianity’s low gospel” topic turns out to be more difficult than I thought it would be. Not because I can’t find a few quotes to start from, but because there are whole books filled with this stuff:

Life Study of Hebrews; Truth, Life, the Church, and The Gospel: The Four Great Pillars in the Lord’s Recovery; Elders Training Book 5: Fellowship Concerning The Lord’s Up-to-Date Move are the top 3 hits when I search LSM On-line Publications.

And LSM’s threatening warnings about copying without their written consent prohibits me from picking out some of them to start with.

Help!
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Old 04-29-2018, 07:50 AM   #41
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LSM’s threatening warnings about copying without their written consent prohibits me from picking out some of them to start with!
Do what Nigel Tomes does: just do a synopsis with a citation.
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Old 04-29-2018, 07:41 PM   #42
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Do what Nigel Tomes does: just do a synopsis with a citation.
OK, good suggestion. I’ll do that as time permits. Big topic and busy (and great) life to get back to.

I’ve been reading your posts on how gentile Christians excluded Jews and whole regions of earth suffered darkness and oppression from the consequences. That’s an entirely new thought to me. But, I don’t know near east history very well.

Blessings in Jesus,

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Old 04-30-2018, 02:36 AM   #43
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OK, good suggestion. I’ll do that as time permits. Big topic and busy (and great) life to get back to.
I'm not very good at big topics and this is certainly one of them. But I kind of pick away at the margins of what interests me.

If you look at the gospel message of Jesus it seems fairly coherent, and consistent. Mark 8:31 He then began to teach them that the Son of Man must suffer many things and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and after three days rise again. 32 He spoke plainly about this, and Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him.

Luke 24:44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”

45 Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46 He told them, “This is what is written: The Messiah will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47 and repentance for the forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48 You are witnesses of these things"

My point is that Lee created a "low gospel" which he placed upon "Christianity", then contrasted with his so-called high peak revelation. But it was just a marketing ploy: if you read the gospels and epistles, the gospel message is plainly there. It is neither high nor low.

The good news is the good news. You either accept it, and believe, or reject and don't believe. It needs neither our puffing up nor beating down. Mark 8:32 says Jesus spoke plainly on this, and Acts 2 has Peter likewise speaking plainly. He was indeed a "witness of these things" as Jesus had predicted in Luke 24:47.
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Old 04-30-2018, 03:02 PM   #44
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I've been reading your posts on how gentile Christians excluded Jews and whole regions of earth suffered darkness and oppression from the consequences. That’s an entirely new thought to me. But, I don’t know near east history very well.
I think it's relevant to the topic. When you see the gospel in the NT, it's presented plainly, and delineated. What is, and what is not. Three centuries later, the now wholly gentile (Greek) church ruptured itself over conceptual overlays not central to the gospel message.

At its irreducible core, the gospel is so simple even an idiot can't mess it up. But Satan isn't called the subtle one for nothing. He induced us to add extraneous layers of complexity, and then focus on that as if it were something in and of itself.

If you Google names like "Cyril of Alexandria" or "Jerome" or "John Chrysostom" and "antisemitism" you'll find material. John's "Against the Jews" is a good example. If Paul told Peter not to force the gentiles to live like Jews, then why were the 4th-century Christian's forcing the Jews to live like gentiles?
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Old 05-05-2018, 02:12 PM   #45
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Good and relevant points, aron. I'll check those references out.

Now for Myth Busters LCD Style Program 3 lets take on "the big one", or at least a part of it. Recall that this thread is like the TV show Myth Busters https://mythresults.com/about-mythbusters

So let’s test this premise of Witness Lee based only on his "Life Study" commentary on the book of Hebrews (for now):

“Christianity preaches a low gospel”

"I preach a High gospel, and everyone in the local churches needs to as well"

Acceptable tests to prove validity of statements include Bible verses (plural) and actual “church life” testimonials of true events (plural) that demonstrate validity or not.

What say you? Myth or Truth. Busted, Plausible, or Confirmed?

To help you consider this, Witness Lee introduces this thought in the third paragraph of Message 8 of "Life Study of Hebrews" (available on LSM's On-line Publications). And because I can't copy from it without violating copyright, this is a general summary of what was said there:

Christianity has superficially and inaccurately presented the gospel because he was told as a youth over and over that Christ died on the cross for him but not that Christ tasted death for everything to reconcile everything to himself. Nor was he taught that Noah’s Ark is a type of that.

High Gospel: Many thoughtful young college and university students including Lee were saved in the 1920’s in China. After they were saved they began to preach Christ in a higher way to convince people according to the divine philosophy which is thoughtful because God is deep, thoughtful, purposeful, and meaningful. As a result of that higher gospel many doctors, nurses, professors, and learned people were brought to the Lord. Hebrews is not shallow but deep and high. For instance God’s coming in the flesh was not to command us to do something but to be one with us. He came not as God to rescue us (that would be terrifying), nor as an angel to embrace us. But he came just as we are…partaking of our nature, our blood and flesh. This is the incarnation, and this is the deepest thought and highest philosophy.

Low Gospel: Incarnation should not be associated with Christmas. You need to burn everything associated with Christmas and if you mention Christmas to China’s people they wouldn’t listen to you. Things of Christmas (trees, stockings, candles, and Santa Claus) are too low, shallow, and childish. That is not the gospel from the Word of God. That is paganism, leaven, that may convince the poor street people by not thoughtful. Christianity has preached the Lord’s highest salvation in a low way. We need those who have experienced God’s high salvation to go to the thoughtful people who immediately will be convinced. Christ being made like His brothers in all things is that he might sympathize with them. Christ’s death made propitiation for the sins of God’s people to reconcile us to God, satisfying God’s righteous demands on us, abolishing death, destroying the devil, releasing us from slavery under the fear of death. Lee uses the term “Christ’s all-inclusive death” in this discussion. Christ’s resurrection was never adequately realized by Christians because thoughtful people were not given the adequate teaching regarding it. Satan filled their thoughts with modernistic thought that resurrection is superstitious. Lee says he pointed out resurrection being apparent in nature to a professor and spoke to him from 1 Cor 15 about a seed which dies and grows again. That young man got saved and became a leading co-worker in TLR. The low preaching of the gospel would have been unable to convince such a thoughtful university student. (I thought he was a professor)
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Old 05-09-2018, 09:22 PM   #46
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Still waiting to see if anyone wants to posit on this topic.

Meanwhile I did what aron suggested to read up on the anti-Jewish trend prominant leaders (the ones he mentioned) of the catholic church, becoming increasingly the Roman Catholic Church of "Greeks", took during the 400 - 700s and beyond. What a shameful time in history! Where were some saints with discernment and a backbone to stand up to these so called pillars?

I also did a Word search on the word "high" using Bible Hub's word search feature (http://biblehub.net/search.php?q=high) to be more informed to take on this "High gospel/low gospel" topic.... great and amazing reading. Unfortunately it will take more time for my own thoughts to gel on this.

I recommend others do what I did if they are looking for something to say on this thread.
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Old 05-13-2018, 08:40 PM   #47
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It is interesting that Witness Lee talked about the High gospel during his Life Study of Hebrews because Hebrews is not about the gospel of our initial salvation but rather a call for Jewish believers who had fallen from grace back to the law to realize the superiority of Christ to everything of Judaism and to come forward to Him, the initiator and perfecter of our faith, the high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

Regarding "the low gospel" Witness Lee was obviously angry about confusion between the things that have been associated with Christmas (Santa Claus, Christmas trees, gift giving, etc) and "the gospel" in the church. Apparently that's what he took away from his childhood in a denomination.

Also, I didn't find the words "high gospel" in my Word search.

I haven't found such confusion to be universal in "Christiantity" since I left TLR. Most Protestant churches understand that "the gospel" is the good news of Jesus Christ, his incarnation, death, resurrection, and ascendant position to save His people from sin, death and every negative thing into His grace and glory. And, even into the body of Christ (yes that is preached). How about you? Have you seen Christianity preaching something less? About Santa Claus, toys, stockings, ornaments?
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Old 05-28-2018, 05:32 PM   #48
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Perhaps to spur some discussion, I’d like to share the results of my word search on the High gospel vs low gospel topic:

Concordance and Lexicon results on “gospel” http://biblehub.com/greek/2098.htm

Scripture doesn’t differentiate a “High gospel” vs “low gospel” rather “The” and “True” gospel versus “False”, “Different”, “Other which is not the” gospel and in those cases often refers to salvation through “works of the law” versus “salvation through the faith of Jesus, which is by grace”, that is the gospel which the apostle Paul preached.

Galatians shows how false brothers brought in secretly were corrupting the gospel of the grace of God to the works of law (which are the works of the flesh vs of the Spirit).

Matthew and Mark show the gospel of God, Jesus, and the kingdom initiated by John the Baptist and Jesus that begins with “the kingdom of God has drawn near, repent and believe in the gospel” and ends with “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”

Acts chronicles the initial acts of the apostles in carrying out Jesus’ Commandment.

Romans presents the gospel in its entirety.

1 Corinthians is Paul’s defense of he and his coworkers’ apostleships of the gospel and his exhortation to follow his example; to not be divided and puffed up by teachings; nor be leavened by sin but rather purge it out; neither to fall in love with their particular gift, but pursue the most excellent way of agape love.
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Old 05-28-2018, 06:41 PM   #49
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It is interesting that Witness Lee talked about the High gospel during his Life Study of Hebrews because Hebrews is not about the gospel of our initial salvation but rather a call for Jewish believers who had fallen from grace back to the law to realize the superiority of Christ to everything of Judaism and to come forward to Him, the initiator and perfecter of our faith, the high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

Regarding "the low gospel" Witness Lee was obviously angry about confusion between the things that have been associated with Christmas (Santa Claus, Christmas trees, gift giving, etc) and "the gospel" in the church. Apparently that's what he took away from his childhood in a denomination.

Also, I didn't find the words "high gospel" in my Word search.

I haven't found such confusion to be universal in "Christiantity" since I left TLR. Most Protestant churches understand that "the gospel" is the good news of Jesus Christ, his incarnation, death, resurrection, and ascendant position to save His people from sin, death and every negative thing into His grace and glory. And, even into the body of Christ (yes that is preached). How about you? Have you seen Christianity preaching something less? About Santa Claus, toys, stockings, ornaments?
If we consider everything Lee wrote we can realize that low gospel refers to how the gospel of salvation is preached and the purpose of the gospel. Nowhere does Lee mean that salvation or the good news of Jesus Christ is "low". What is low is how it is preached in a diluted way. Low gospel means the way the gospel of salvation is preached in a low, superficial and diluted way.

Here is an example of a Low gospel:

"Jesus died on the cross for us so that we could have our best life now" (Osteen-like gospel)

Jesus dying on the cross for us is the true gospel but being "for our best life now" is a diluted gospel. I think many denominations teach this kind of gospel, especially at Christmas. At Christmas, the gospel becomes about little donkeys and three wise men of orient are bearing gifts from near and far.

The inadequacy in gospel preaching is also realized in some Christian movements such as Methodist, Pentecostal and Apostolic. Here they use the term "full gospel" which means essentially the same as Lee's "high gospel".

Lee's high gospel is also relevant to our modern times - fear of hell gospel preaching does not work anymore as it did in the 1800's. Also the promise of future heaven is not working either as people are happy making "heaven on Earth" eg Joel Osteen.

The shallow/superficial gospel can be written on a 4 page gospel tract. The deeper, full gospel of the kingdom takes 40 days to preach (Acts 1:3).

Hebrews 6:1 Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God,
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Old 05-29-2018, 09:34 AM   #50
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So perhaps “unmerited favor is too low” is plausible at this point? At least until further evidence?

I recalled the song http://www.witness-lee-hymns.org/hymns/H0537.html
which stated Witness Lee’s emphasis on the subjective Christ. But, our audience suggested checks and balances as to where that subjective experience of Christ might lead.

I recall that Paul used the term grace when describing participating in the donation of money to help the saints in war torn Jerusalem.

While looking for that verse I found this: http://biblehub.com/philippians/1-11.htm.
So I'm not sure if this thread has moved on, but I didn't see a verse referred to that came to me as I was reading through this thread: "The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." (2 Tim 4:22) I have long accepted that grace is more than simply "unmerited favor." To be sure, it is that, and just this alone is more than amazing! But the word certainly has the connotation of both favor and enjoyment. If you look up the Strongs definition for it (charis; Strong's 5485) the definition uses words like acceptable, benefit, favor, gift, gracious, joy, liberality, pleasure, thank-worthy.

Many commentators have explored the depths of "grace" in the written word without coming to a nice, neat & tidy conclusion of what all it means. I just know that grace came through Christ to us, and we haven't nearly begun to plumb the depths of what all that means in our lives here and now! ("Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor has it come up in the heart of man . . .")
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Old 06-05-2018, 09:10 PM   #51
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If we consider everything Lee wrote we can realize that low gospel refers to how the gospel of salvation is preached and the purpose of the gospel. Nowhere does Lee mean that salvation or the good news of Jesus Christ is "low". What is low is how it is preached in a diluted way. Low gospel means the way the gospel of salvation is preached in a low, superficial and diluted way.
The trouble with what Lee wrote is that it ended up focusing nearly all of the “Recovery’s” gospel efforts on recruiting intelligent college students as “the good material” instead of the New Testament’s “whosoever” including the poor and downtrodden.
[/QUOTE]Here is an example of a Low gospel:
"Jesus died on the cross for us so that we could have our best life now" (Osteen-like gospel)
Jesus dying on the cross for us is the true gospel but being "for our best life now" is a diluted gospel. I think many denominations teach this kind of gospel, especially at Christmas. At Christmas, the gospel becomes about little donkeys and three wise men of orient are bearing gifts from near and far. [/QUOTE]
Branding all of Christianity’s gospel as low because of Osteen (who most Christians I know see through) and “little donkeys and three wise men” at Christmas time is too broad brush. Most Christians I know see through Osteen and only include the Biblical references from the gospels in telling the story of the incarnation of Jesus Christ as God with us at Christmas time.
[/QUOTE=Evangelical;75724]The inadequacy in gospel preaching is also realized in some Christian movements such as Methodist, Pentecostal and Apostolic. Here they use the term "full gospel" which means essentially the same as Lee's "high gospel".[/QUOTE]
I sort of agree with you here, as many Christians realize they need to preach the full gospel as revealed in the Bible versus man’s concept. But, I never heard Lee credit anyone else with preaching a “full gospel” or “high gospel” besides himself and his local churches. You can’t have it two ways.
[/QUOTE=Evangelical;75724]Lee's high gospel is also relevant to our modern times - fear of hell gospel preaching does not work anymore as it did in the 1800's. Also the promise of future heaven is not working either as people are happy making "heaven on Earth" eg Joel Osteen. [/QUOTE]
What’s funny about your quote to me is that I heard “fear of hell gospel preaching” a lot from the age of 12 to 18 but didn’t respond to it until after I also I heard local church saints preach to me about God’s eternal purpose from Ephesians at age 18. Then I responded to the combination of hearing the positive “God has an eternal purpose to head all things up in Jesus Christ” and negative “your eternal future is at stake with your decision, respond carefully and don’t mess it up”. So, I think it takes both, because both are presented in the Bible and give the right reasons and sense of urgency.
Most Christians I know do talk about “going to heaven” but their gospel focuses on eternal life in Christ and restored fellowship with God through His redemption. “Going to heaven” is a good topic for its own thread discussion, because I agree there is a lot of inadequate teaching about what happens after we die or Christ returns in today’s Christianity.
[/QUOTE=Evangelical;75724]The shallow/superficial gospel can be written on a 4 page gospel tract. The deeper, full gospel of the kingdom takes 40 days to preach (Acts 1:3). [/QUOTE]
Be careful because “The Recovery” also uses a lot of short gospel tracts in its gospel preaching. The one that really gripes me is “The Mystery of Human Life” and the way it was used exclusively for door to door preaching in one of the local churches I attended.
[/QUOTE=Evangelical;75724]Hebrews 6:1 Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, [/QUOTE] Great quote!

So, “Christianity preaches a low gospel” – Confirmed, Busted, or Plausible? What say you?

Then we can move to the second part “Witness Lee and the local churches preach a High gospel”.
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Old 06-05-2018, 09:17 PM   #52
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If we consider everything Lee wrote we can realize that low gospel refers to how the gospel of salvation is preached and the purpose of the gospel. Nowhere does Lee mean that salvation or the good news of Jesus Christ is "low". What is low is how it is preached in a diluted way. Low gospel means the way the gospel of salvation is preached in a low, superficial and diluted way.
The trouble with what Lee wrote is that it ended up focusing nearly all of the “Recovery’s” gospel efforts on recruiting intelligent college students as “the good material” instead of the New Testament’s “whosoever” including the poor and downtrodden.

EV "Here is an example of a Low gospel:
"Jesus died on the cross for us so that we could have our best life now" (Osteen-like gospel)
Jesus dying on the cross for us is the true gospel but being "for our best life now" is a diluted gospel. I think many denominations teach this kind of gospel, especially at Christmas. At Christmas, the gospel becomes about little donkeys and three wise men of orient are bearing gifts from near and far."

Branding all of Christianity’s gospel as low because of Osteen (who most Christians I know see through) and “little donkeys and three wise men” at Christmas time is too broad brush. Most Christians I know see through Osteen and only include the Biblical references from the gospels in telling the story of the incarnation of Jesus Christ as God with us at Christmas time.

EV "The inadequacy in gospel preaching is also realized in some Christian movements such as Methodist, Pentecostal and Apostolic. Here they use the term "full gospel" which means essentially the same as Lee's "high gospel".

I sort of agree with you here, as many Christians realize they need to preach the full gospel as revealed in the Bible versus man’s concept. But, I never heard Lee credit anyone else with preaching a “full gospel” or “high gospel” besides himself and his local churches. You can’t have it two ways.

EV "Lee's high gospel is also relevant to our modern times - fear of hell gospel preaching does not work anymore as it did in the 1800's. Also the promise of future heaven is not working either as people are happy making "heaven on Earth" eg Joel Osteen."

What’s funny about your quote to me is that I heard “fear of hell gospel preaching” a lot from the age of 12 to 18 but didn’t respond to it until after I also I heard local church saints preach to me about God’s eternal purpose from Ephesians at age 18. Then I responded to the combination of hearing the positive “God has an eternal purpose to head all things up in Jesus Christ” and negative “your eternal future is at stake with your decision, respond carefully and don’t mess it up”. So, I think it takes both, because both are presented in the Bible and give the right reasons and sense of urgency.
Most Christians I know do talk about “going to heaven” but their gospel focuses on eternal life in Christ and restored fellowship with God through His redemption. “Going to heaven” is a good topic for its own thread discussion, because I agree there is a lot of inadequate teaching about what happens after we die or Christ returns in today’s Christianity.

EV "The shallow/superficial gospel can be written on a 4 page gospel tract. The deeper, full gospel of the kingdom takes 40 days to preach (Acts 1:3)."

Be careful because “The Recovery” also uses a lot of short gospel tracts in its gospel preaching. The one that really gripes me is “The Mystery of Human Life” and the way it was used exclusively for door to door preaching in one of the local churches I attended without a presentation of Christ as the Savior.

EV "Hebrews 6:1 Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God,"

Great quote!

So, “Christianity preaches a low gospel” – Confirmed, Busted, or Plausible? What say you?

Then we can move to the second part “Witness Lee and the local churches preach a High gospel”.
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Old 06-05-2018, 09:21 PM   #53
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So I'm not sure if this thread has moved on, but I didn't see a verse referred to that came to me as I was reading through this thread: "The Lord be with your spirit. Grace be with you." (2 Tim 4:22) I have long accepted that grace is more than simply "unmerited favor." To be sure, it is that, and just this alone is more than amazing! But the word certainly has the connotation of both favor and enjoyment. If you look up the Strongs definition for it (charis; Strong's 5485) the definition uses words like acceptable, benefit, favor, gift, gracious, joy, liberality, pleasure, thank-worthy.

Many commentators have explored the depths of "grace" in the written word without coming to a nice, neat & tidy conclusion of what all it means. I just know that grace came through Christ to us, and we haven't nearly begun to plumb the depths of what all that means in our lives here and now! ("Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, nor has it come up in the heart of man . . .")
Discussion on that topic didn't progress any further Sons to Glory. I like your contribution.
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Old 06-07-2018, 05:27 AM   #54
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One thing I noticed of the so-called leading ones was lack of transformation: legalistic, rigid, narrow, judgmental, and biased (subjectively myopic). . . how "high" is this gospel, really?

And young ones growing up in the system and seeing it 24/7 and not just on the printed page, leaving in droves: where's the saving power in the message?

And the constant puffing up of the so-called rich ministry and the message instead of the crucified and resurrected Christ.

One may use words like "organic" and "metabolic transformation" but the proof is in actions consistently seen, not mere posturing on Sundays.
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Old 06-11-2018, 08:25 PM   #55
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One thing I noticed of the so-called leading ones was lack of transformation: legalistic, rigid, narrow, judgmental, and biased (subjectively myopic). . . how "high" is this gospel, really?

And young ones growing up in the system and seeing it 24/7 and not just on the printed page, leaving in droves: where's the saving power in the message?

And the constant puffing up of the so-called rich ministry and the message instead of the crucified and resurrected Christ.

One may use words like "organic" and "metabolic transformation" but the proof is in actions consistently seen, not mere posturing on Sundays.
“legalistic, rigid, narrow, judgmental, biased (subjectively miopic)”. We were all that way after “feeding” on LSM only for years.

“young people leaving in droves”

Good evidence the “high gospel” of the LC isn’t so high after all.
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Old 06-15-2018, 07:04 AM   #56
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evidence the “high gospel” of the LC isn’t so high after all.
If it were so, there should be some issue: if all you have to do is "masticate the processed and consummated Triune God" and then you "become God in life and nature (but not in the Godhead)" there should be some indicators along the way. Evidences, as JJ calls them.

Where is the transformation? Where is the perfecting? We see endless meetings, trainings, conferences. Where is the issue in human living?

When the supposed Guru starts dunning the flock to bankroll his son's motor home business, where is the transformation? When he puts the other, admittedly "unspiritual" son in charge of business operations, keeps him there even after this steamrolls the flock and the son's caught repeatedly in compromising situations with female parishioners, where's the transformation? Instead of repentance and transparency we got "fermentation of the present rebellion".

Theology doesn't matter if your behavior's bad. Jesus told the disciples of John, "Tell John what you see - the sick are healed, the dead raised, and the poor have the gospel preached to them". He didn't say, "Tell John of the theology we are teaching here." The proof is in the pudding and the LC pudding stinks.

The Lord Jesus gave plenty of evidence that he was God's Messiah. Up to and including the resurrection from the dead, and the out-poured Spirit "which you now see and hear" (Acts 2:33). Not conferences, trainings, booklets for sale. Real, actual lives changed. I don't see any more of that in the LC than in "poor, poor, Christianity". And I see as much weird stuff in the LC as in "degraded Christianity". So the theology doesn't cut it.
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Old 06-15-2018, 09:05 AM   #57
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If it were so, there should be some issue: if all you have to do is "masticate the processed and consummated Triune God" and then you "become God in life and nature (but not in the Godhead)" there should be some indicators along the way. Evidences, as JJ calls them.

Where is the transformation? Where is the perfecting? We see endless meetings, trainings, conferences. Where is the issue in human living?
Why do they constantly need to file lawsuits to protect themselves from criticism?

What ministry in history constantly maintains a legal defense staff?

My old church was required to pay every month to LSM/DCP. Titus Chu told us to do that -- until they quarantined him in Whistler.
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