How the LCM Affects Personality

[Freedom]

This thread is intended to discuss the impact that the LCM has on people's personality traits and also the results of that impact. It should be noted that I am approaching this topic as someone who was born and raised in the LCM, so I might have a different take on the issue than those who came into the LCM later in life.

Early on, I became aware that in the LCM, certain personality traits like assertiveness were generally frowned upon. I also observed how people acted and interacted, and I took that as an example. The result? I learned to act in a passive way, I learned to not speak up for myself and never I learned how to say "no" to people. Of course, not all of that can be blamed on the LCM, but I feel it is fair to say that the LCM was a big influencing factor.

Once I was in college, I had a rude awakening. I came to realize two things. The first is that people outside the LCM didn't walk around in a state of self-imposed humility and passivity. I also realized that personality traits that the LCM considered to be desirable were only considered as such because it presented the opportunity to control and manipulate people. In fact, I came to realized that among local leaders, there was a lot of resentment over the fact that members were too passive. But they knew they couldn't change that because that's how people were taught to act.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Freedom

This thread is intended to discuss the impact that the LCM has on people's personality traits and also the results of that impact. It should be noted that I am approaching this topic as someone who was born and raised in the LCM, so I might have a different take on the issue than those who came into the LCM later in life.

Early on, I became aware that in the LCM, certain personality traits like assertiveness were generally frowned upon. I also observed how people acted and interacted, and I took that as an example. The result? I learned to act in a passive way, I learned to not speak up for myself and never I learned how to say "no" to people. Of course, not all of that can be blamed on the LCM, but I feel it is fair to say that the LCM was a big influencing factor.

Once I was in college, I had a rude awakening. I came to realize two things. The first is that people outside the LCM didn't walk around in a state of self-imposed humility and passivity. I also realized that personality traits that the LCM considered to be desirable were only considered as such because it presented the opportunity to control and manipulate people. In fact, I came to realized that among local leaders, there was a lot of resentment over the fact that members were too passive. But they knew they couldn't change that because that's how people were taught to act.

Freedom,

Would you say that this passive, unassertive personality was something demonstrated by leadership as well?

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Freedom,

Would you say that this passive, unassertive personality was something demonstrated by leadership as well?

As it relates to local leaders, I would say both yes and no. I saw what I would categorize as two types of elders in the LC. There were the ones who seemed to be effective at leading others. They were assertive, and knew how to get things done. Then there were those who were perhaps pushed into a leadership position without having the experience or personality that would make them successful at that.

I would say that the second category is the type that I ran into the most. Obviously it's easier to see that in retrospect, but at the time, I viewed them all as people I could trust as leaders (as did everyone else). When the ineffective type of leaders exist as examples, then attributes like passiveness or timidness creates an impression of it being a normal way to act or a desired personality trait.

At a more general level, I would say that among many LC leaders regardless of what category they would fall under, there was a never ending act of trying to appear unassuming. No one wanted to be labeled as being ambitious and the elders acted accordingly regardless of whether they really were that way or not.

For lack of a better example, I saw stuff like this happen a lot with the breaking of the bread during the Lord's table. The elders seemed to get really fussy about making sure it happened at the 'right' time, and when the rank and file members attempted to get up to break the bread, somehow it always ended up being the 'wrong' time. But the elders didn't want to appear that they were "running the meeting." Of course, all the rank and file members were afraid of getting reprimanded if they initiated anything. So the elders in turn would often get in a mood and start nudging random brothers that it's time to get up there and break the bread, saying "there's no one in charge here." It's the silly games like that which really tend to mess with people, especially when they try to take it seriously and can't make sense of it all.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

This thread is intended to discuss the impact that the LCM has on people's personality traits and also the results of that impact. It should be noted that I am approaching this topic as someone who was born and raised in the LCM, so I might have a different take on the issue than those who came into the LCM later in life.

Early on, I became aware that in the LCM, certain personality traits like assertiveness were generally frowned upon. I also observed how people acted and interacted, and I took that as an example. The result? I learned to act in a passive way, I learned to not speak up for myself and never I learned how to say "no" to people. Of course, not all of that can be blamed on the LCM, but I feel it is fair to say that the LCM was a big influencing factor.

Once I was in college, I had a rude awakening. I came to realize two things. The first is that people outside the LCM didn't walk around in a state of self-imposed humility and passivity. I also realized that personality traits that the LCM considered to be desirable were only considered as such because it presented the opportunity to control and manipulate people. In fact, I came to realized that among local leaders, there was a lot of resentment over the fact that members were too passive. But they knew they couldn't change that because that's how people were taught to act.

This can all be related to "submission and authority". Those older than you, submit. Those older than you even if they're wrong they're still right. This behavior translates into the workplace where you end up being passive and deferring to others. Thought process is usually the same "it's not my place".
We all have opinions, but we become trained in the local churches not to express them. Those that are expressive in their opinions are usually ones receiving some form if disciplinary measures.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Terry

This can all be related to "submission and authority". Those older than you, submit. Those older than you even if they're wrong they're still right. This behavior translates into the workplace where you end up being passive and deferring to others. Thought process is usually the same "it's not my place".
We all have opinions, but we become trained in the local churches not to express them. Those that are expressive in their opinions are usually ones receiving some form if disciplinary measures.

Yes, the teaching of authority and submission is one of the core (and unspoken) principles in the LCM. As such, it plays a big part in the interpersonal relationships and interactions, even though people might not realize it. When I think about my own upbringing, I was never aware of any authority and submission doctrine in the LCM, but I certainly saw it played out in the meetings and the various interactions that occurred. It was also an ideology that was present in my family situation as well.

For me, I quickly caught on to the subtle 'hints' around me in the LCM regarding what type of behavior that was appropriate. I always saw people blindly agree to do whatever the elders told them to do, so I thought that submissiveness was normal behavior. I always saw the rank and file members hesitate with, or defer big decisions to those over them, so I though that indecisiveness was normal behavior. The list could go on.

[Trapped]

I see this all over the place. I've had to tell a few saints sometimes who are hesitant to give their input that we're so afraid of expressing a thought that could be construed as an opinion that we end up even being afraid of expressing an idea!

I remember one time I noticed some grammatical errors on a handout several days before it was to be handed out. They were clear as day, obvious, no doubt in any remotely educated person's mind that they were incorrect and needed to be fixed before it was passed out to the saints. But in checking with the brothers who put the handout together, we had to say "we believe there are errors" rather than state the fact that "there are errors", in case we were wrong and couldn't trust the words that were right in front of our eyes because "maybe they know something we don't know."

Super small example but those subtle self-doubt, deferential, "it's not my place", "I must not know what I'm talking about" type maneuvers are common (and drive me up the wall!)

[Trapped]

Another example that isn't related to being submissive, but relates to an incredibly common exchange that saints have that bleeds into other areas of life:

Saint A: "Hi Saint B, how was the [meeting/conference/training/retreat/gathering/whatever]?"
Saint B: "Oh it was really good!!"
Saint A: "Oh good!"
Saint B: "Yeah! Yeah. yep....."
Saint A: "Good....okay...."

....and both saints drift away from the conversation because it had no foundation to begin with.

Sometimes I intentionally press saints past the "it was really good" answer and say (not in a sarcastic way), "Oh yeah? So like what exactly was good?" The answer is usually pretty short and is basically a few words about what their brain can quickly remember about the overall topic. I think a lot endure the meetings so they can get to the social aspect of conferences, etc.

A saint who had been serving for a few years told me that when they decided to stop serving and get a job that they went on a interview and the interviewer asked them "So how has your summer been?" And the saint....as they had done countless times before....said out of reflex, "Oh, it's been good!" And stopped at that. And the interviewer looked at them like.....that's it? And the saint snapped out of their church-life-mode and remembered they were in the real world where people actually give details and have actual conversational back-and-forth exchanges.

[Trapped]

I'll throw my own in. The self-imposed passivity. To this day I am scared to initiate anything in my own life, including small things like calling people up to go hang out, all the way to bigger things like what job to go for or what medium-to-large changes I should make in my life, because of the deep-seated negative implication that that is something initiated by me and not by the Lord. I know this should be balanced in that we should bring the Lord into things, but it ends up being paralyzing. I’ve never been allowed to express what I want, or have an interest in things, or have a goal to strive for (it might replace the Lord!!!) that as an adult I am still prevented from those things. Or, if I do, they are accompanied by guilt and shame and fear.

When I was in high school the serving ones told us that we should never ever make a big decision like choosing what college to go to without including the Lord in the decision. They told us to sit down alone in our rooms and write down the names of the colleges we were considering and pray over the list to see where the Lord would lead us. Well, terrified of making a big decision without the Lord and afraid of the repercussions if I didn't, I did just that, only I got no leading or feeling or direction at all. After agonizing about it I finally gave up and just went where I wanted to go. I talked to another church kid a year or two ago who said something similar.....they said they were worried about doing anything of their own initiative but chased the Lord's feeling to no avail and said "eventually I just had to do what makes me happy".

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Trapped

Super small example but those subtle self-doubt, deferential, "it's not my place", "I must not know what I'm talking about" type maneuvers are common (and drive me up the wall!)

I can definitely relate to the self-doubt. It's a behavior that I saw happen all the time within the LCM. Like you mentioned, I think it's related to the fear that statements of fact might be construed as expressing an opinion/criticism.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I can definitely relate to the self-doubt. It's a behavior that I saw happen all the time within the LCM. Like you mentioned, I think it's related to the fear that statements of fact might be construed as expressing an opinion/criticism.

Perhaps the program just preyed on and escalated our own lack of self-assurance.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Perhaps the program just preyed on and escalated our own lack of self-assurance.

That could be part of it. I do think that the LCM attract certain personality types more than others. I got to the point where whenever there were newcomers, I could make a pretty good guess as to whether they would be back or not. That guess had everything to do with their personality.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I'll throw my own in. The self-imposed passivity. To this day I am scared to initiate anything in my own life, including small things like calling people up to go hang out, all the way to bigger things like what job to go for or what medium-to-large changes I should make in my life, because of the deep-seated negative implication that that is something initiated by me and not by the Lord. I know this should be balanced in that we should bring the Lord into things, but it ends up being paralyzing. I’ve never been allowed to express what I want, or have an interest in things, or have a goal to strive for (it might replace the Lord!!!) that as an adult I am still prevented from those things. Or, if I do, they are accompanied by guilt and shame and fear.

Passivity is something I have struggled with for a long time. The LCM taught everyone that they should "wait on the Lord" for everything, and sometimes that meant hesitating in even the smallest of decisions. I have thus had the tendency to always look at the potential negative outcomes of a decision and then fail to make a decision at all, which in many cases ends up being worse than making a wrong decision.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Freedom

This thread is intended to discuss the impact that the LCM has on people's personality traits and also the results of that impact. It should be noted that I am approaching this topic as someone who was born and raised in the LCM, so I might have a different take on the issue than those who came into the LCM later in life.

Early on, I became aware that in the LCM, certain personality traits like assertiveness were generally frowned upon. I also observed how people acted and interacted, and I took that as an example. The result? I learned to act in a passive way, I learned to not speak up for myself and never I learned how to say "no" to people. Of course, not all of that can be blamed on the LCM, but I feel it is fair to say that the LCM was a big influencing factor.

Once I was in college, I had a rude awakening. I came to realize two things. The first is that people outside the LCM didn't walk around in a state of self-imposed humility and passivity. I also realized that personality traits that the LCM considered to be desirable were only considered as such because it presented the opportunity to control and manipulate people. In fact, I came to realized that among local leaders, there was a lot of resentment over the fact that members were too passive. But they knew they couldn't change that because that's how people were taught to act.

Have you ever read about or tried assertiveness training? You might find it helpful. I did.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Perhaps the program just preyed on and escalated our own lack of self-assurance.

I can see that. One of my "Strengths Finder" top 5 strengths is Self-Assurance. I think this is one of the reasons I was able to transition into and out of the LSM ministry churches. It must be SO HARD to break through the confusion and deceit with a lack of self-assurance. I hope those trapped in the LSM now can read the testimony of other brothers on this thread and make their way towards truth.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Trapped

When I was in high school the serving ones told us that we should never ever make a big decision like choosing what college to go to without including the Lord in the decision. They told us to sit down alone in our rooms and write down the names of the colleges we were considering and pray over the list to see where the Lord would lead us.

I was told something quite different. When it came to college and prospective careers, "it should be practical for the church-life".
Could certainly pray over which school to attend. What if the school decided upon wasn't to their liking? Go back and pray some more?
Whether it's school of choice, career of choice, or marriage of choice, it's you that has to live with those decisions and not the brothers who are trying to persuade you towards their preferences.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Terry

I was told something quite different. When it came to college and prospective careers, "it should be practical for the church-life".
Could certainly pray over which school to attend. What if the school decided upon wasn't to their liking? Go back and pray some more?
Whether it's school of choice, career of choice, or marriage of choice, it's you that has to live with those decisions and not the brothers who are trying to persuade you towards their preferences.

I was told that I was in the Lord's army, that I should get myself ready, and soon the "brothers" will tell me where I will go.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I was told that I was in the Lord's army, that I should get myself ready, and soon the "brothers" will tell me where I will go.

Which brothers?

Elders? Titus?

I can picture someone saying the first half, but the last point ....""brothers" will tell me where I will go "" ....is odd. Well anyway, what is the rest of the story? Did they tell you where you would you go? You told them you wanted to be a Buckeye and they told you " no instead you will go to Harvard".??

I can picture brothers saying " Brother Ohio, you might be able to sink shots from 3 point land all day long and OSU could use a hot hand like yours, but you are in the Lord's army, and you need to prepare yourself to be useful to Him, so pray and consider then let's get together and fellowship about it. In the end, it is your decision but we feel you should open to our fellowship. " Nothing wrong with that, is there?

Drake

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Terry

I was told something quite different. When it came to college and prospective careers, "it should be practical for the church-life".
Could certainly pray over which school to attend. What if the school decided upon wasn't to their liking? Go back and pray some more?
Whether it's school of choice, career of choice, or marriage of choice, it's you that has to live with those decisions and not the brothers who are trying to persuade you towards their preferences.

I know a couple in this situation in terms of migrating. They were on their way to move to one place after having a feeling to do so for some years, and the brothers fellowshipped with them and redirected them to a totally different place that was not on their original radar at all. This couple migrated there and it has been especially detrimental, even in terms of health, to the wife who, due to a number of reasons, has ended up being quite isolated most of the years they have been there. Now this couple wants to move again but "the brothers" who meddled in the first place now have no feeling or fellowship for them. So they are stuck where they don't want to be but don't know where to go without direction from the brothers. They have been so trained through all the years to follow the direction of men that they are totally stuck otherwise. I get frustrated thinking, "So the Lord you've been contacting every day and who you've been following all these years suddenly is silent to you without the brothers telling you what the Lord's feeling is?"

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I know a couple in this situation in terms of migrating. They were on their way to move to one place after having a feeling to do so for some years, and the brothers fellowshipped with them and redirected them to a totally different place that was not on their original radar at all. This couple migrated there and it has been especially detrimental, even in terms of health, to the wife who, due to a number of reasons, has ended up being quite isolated most of the years they have been there. Now this couple wants to move again but "the brothers" who meddled in the first place now have no feeling or fellowship for them. So they are stuck where they don't want to be but don't know where to go without direction from the brothers. They have been so trained through all the years to follow the direction of men that they are totally stuck otherwise. I get frustrated thinking, "So the Lord you've been contacting every day and who you've been following all these years suddenly is silent to you without the brothers telling you what the Lord's feeling is?"

Clearly this couple have a co-dependent personality. Whether caused by the local church or not is the question.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Which brothers?

Elders? Titus?

Drake

No. Not Titus or the Cleveland elders.

The brother who told me that was referring to "those brothers who were one with Max Rapoport, who was one with Brother Lee's burden."

At one point they were on different sides of the meeting hall, and the brothers one with BroMax who was one with BruLee were shouting at Titus and the elders to "let my people go."

Chaos. Instigated by WL. Yet Max was made the scapegoat.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

I can picture someone saying the first half, but the last point ....""brothers" will tell me where I will go "" ....is odd. Well anyway, what is the rest of the story? Did they tell you where you would you go? You told them you wanted to be a Buckeye and they told you " no instead you will go to Harvard".??

I can picture brothers saying " Brother Ohio, you might be able to sink shots from 3 point land all day long and OSU could use a hot hand like yours, but you are in the Lord's army, and you need to prepare yourself to be useful to Him, so pray and consider then let's get together and fellowship about it. In the end, it is your decision but we feel you should open to our fellowship. " Nothing wrong with that, is there?

Drake

None of that was discussed.

You're far too "reasonable" Drake.

Back in 1977 you were just a baby duckling, sheltered from the Anaheim wolves.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

Clearly this couple have a co-dependent personally. Whether caused by the local church or not is the question.

Do you mean personality?

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Do you mean personality?

Yes. Changed it. Thanks.

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Ohio

No. Not Titus or the Cleveland elders.

The brother who told me that was referring to "those brothers who were one with Max Rapoport, who was one with Brother Lee's burden."

At one point they were on different sides of the meeting hall, and the brothers one with BroMax who was one with BruLee were shouting at Titus and the elders to "let my people go."

Chaos. Instigated by WL. Yet Max was made the scapegoat.

Thanks.

In 78, I was in a meeting just after Max had visited a certain locality giving a conference. I did not see Max. However the brothers were all a buzz saying that Max at one point threw the Bible physically across the floor saying "we do not need dead letters". I remember that many seemed to approve of his illustration and one even reiterated it in a meeting (fortunately he did throw the Bible as Max did else I would have reacted). Privately others told me they disagreed with Max and that he should not have done that and that it had caused a problem. I mentioned the incident to the elders in my locality and they indicated that it was wholly inappropriate and that Brother Lee was aware and was about to correct that situation. Shortly after, Max was dismissed. And the locality I visited? Some followed Max out, including the lead elder, and others started to rebuild. There was and is much latitude in the Lord's recovery and many tried to take advantage of that.

Drake

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Drake

Thanks.

In 78, I was in a meeting just after Max had visited a certain locality giving a conference. I did not see Max. However the brothers were all a buzz saying that Max at one point threw the Bible physically across the floor saying "we do not need dead letters". I remember that many seemed to approve of his illustration and one even reiterated it in a meeting (fortunately he did throw the Bible as Max did else I would have reacted). Privately others told me they disagreed with Max and that he should not have done that and that it had caused a problem. I mentioned the incident to the elders in my locality and they indicated that it was wholly inappropriate and that Brother Lee was aware and was about to correct that situation. Shortly after, Max was dismissed. And the locality I visited? Some followed Max out, including the lead elder, and others started to rebuild. There was and is much latitude in the Lord's recovery and many tried to take advantage of that.

Drake

Max came to Chicago in May 1977 with a mandate from WL to "shake up" the LC's as the "Universal Coordinator of the One New Man" so that all the young people would move out of the Midwest to "training centers" under WL's control. Boston was the place on the East Coast and Anaheim out West. Other Universities were also discussed. When the Cleveland eldership resisted Max's demands from WL, and his pressure on them to resign, many of the young people staged a coup d'etat. It nearly turned bloody. This was June of 1977.

One of my close friends was so shaken by the conflict, that he walked slowly to the center of the room between both factions and fell to his knees and prayed. It seemed to end the conflict, at least for that day.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by zeek

Have you ever read about or tried assertiveness training? You might find it helpful. I did.

I haven't. I will read up on that.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I was told that I was in the Lord's army, that I should get myself ready, and soon the "brothers" will tell me where I will go.

When I was a single brother I had heard roughly the same thing in regard to marriage. "You remain single until you're ready for marriage."

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I know a couple in this situation in terms of migrating. They were on their way to move to one place after having a feeling to do so for some years, and the brothers fellowshipped with them and redirected them to a totally different place that was not on their original radar at all. This couple migrated there and it has been especially detrimental, even in terms of health, to the wife who, due to a number of reasons, has ended up being quite isolated most of the years they have been there. Now this couple wants to move again but "the brothers" who meddled in the first place now have no feeling or fellowship for them. So they are stuck where they don't want to be but don't know where to go without direction from the brothers. They have been so trained through all the years to follow the direction of men that they are totally stuck otherwise. I get frustrated thinking, "So the Lord you've been contacting every day and who you've been following all these years suddenly is silent to you without the brothers telling you what the Lord's feeling is?"

Underline and bolding my emphasis.
Trapped, it could be when "responsible brothers" use the phrase fellowship you might as well reinsert with the word feeling or opinion. That's what it amounts to. In my opinion, brothers who meddled in the first place simply don't care; if it was their motive to persuade the couple to move there.
I believe the concept is wrong to think the brother's fellowship equates to the Lord's leading.
What if through prayer the Lord's leading doesn't equate to the brother's fellowship?

[Bradley]

Originally Posted by Terry

When I was a single brother I had heard roughly the same thing in regard to marriage. "You remain single until you're ready for marriage."

LOL as if you'll ever be ready when you're never allowed to talk to sisters

[aron]

Originally Posted by Bradley

LOL as if you'll ever be ready when you're never allowed to talk to sisters

You're ready when the brothers say you're ready. What could be simpler than that.

Banners for the summer training:

1. Leadership is always right.
2. God's leading is always through God's anointed leadership. Remember, only one anointed leadership per age! Don't be ambitious!
3. Leadership is never wrong.
4. Being one with God means being one with the brothers. Practical oneness with God's deputy authority.

Let's all read the banners together with an exercised spirit. Don't be hardened.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by aron

Let's all read the banners together with an exercised spirit.

I must of been a miserable failure....after 20 some odd years I never really learned how to "exercise my spirit". After two decades I was still the 90 pound weakling who got sand kicked in his face.
Here's a pic of me after pray-reading my 500th Life-Study:

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I know a couple in this situation in terms of migrating. They were on their way to move to one place after having a feeling to do so for some years, and the brothers fellowshipped with them and redirected them to a totally different place that was not on their original radar at all. This couple migrated there and it has been especially detrimental, even in terms of health, to the wife who, due to a number of reasons, has ended up being quite isolated most of the years they have been there. Now this couple wants to move again but "the brothers" who meddled in the first place now have no feeling or fellowship for them. So they are stuck where they don't want to be but don't know where to go without direction from the brothers. They have been so trained through all the years to follow the direction of men that they are totally stuck otherwise. I get frustrated thinking, "So the Lord you've been contacting every day and who you've been following all these years suddenly is silent to you without the brothers telling you what the Lord's feeling is?"

Moving is a major life decision. People normally make such decisions based on their personal or family goals. If people don't give a second thought to external interference like that, then it would seem to suggest a lack of any real direction in life.

As Terry mentioned, it seems that those in the LCM equate 'fellowship' from the brothers as being something that the Lord is wanting them to do. It's reasonable that they would intend to follow the Lord, so if what the brothers are telling to them is something they correlate to following the Lord, then it makes sense why it happens.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Moving is a major life decision. People normally make such decisions based on their personal or family goals. If people don't give a second thought to external interference like that, then it would seem to suggest a lack of any real direction in life.

As Terry mentioned, it seems that those in the LCM equate 'fellowship' from the brothers as being something that the Lord is wanting them to do. It's reasonable that they would intend to follow the Lord, so if what the brothers are telling to them is something they correlate to following the Lord, then it makes sense why it happens.

One stipulation for Full-Timers in the LCM is to abrogate their own ability to choose where they will live or how they will serve.

This has created a terrible conflict in many of those who desired to serve the Lord.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Moving is a major life decision. People normally make such decisions based on their personal or family goals. If people don't give a second thought to external interference like that, then it would seem to suggest a lack of any real direction in life.

In my personal experience, as a church kid, it is difficult to have any real direction in life when pursuing any direction is represented to you for your whole growing up years as replacing the Lord/an idol/doing things your own way/chasing after things that are all going to burn anyway. It's hard to put energy toward anything or be excited or passionate about something when doing so has been so condemned. It's a great path directly to depression.

Originally Posted by Freedom

As Terry mentioned, it seems that those in the LCM equate 'fellowship' from the brothers as being something that the Lord is wanting them to do. It's reasonable that they would intend to follow the Lord, so if what the brothers are telling to them is something they correlate to following the Lord, then it makes sense why it happens.

This is it exactly. Going against the brothers' fellowship is painted as going against the Lord. Problems ensue!

On a small scale, at one point "the brothers" had to make a decision that affected my daily life (this was not unsolicited fellowship or meddling....because of my certain situation I asked them and was looking to them for a solution that they were rightfully on the hook for....it is hard to explain without getting more specific). The fellowship came back that "the brothers feel good about XYZ solution" and upon hearing it I immediately realized that that fellowship was unequivocally the worst possible solution they could have come up with. (There was one vital piece of information they were not aware of that I’m sure would have changed their decision). I realized then that their "feeling" was not the Lord's "feeling", because the Lord would never EVER have led anyone to "feel good" about that solution, regardless of what they know. I then realized their "feeling" is only based on information they know, which means it's just from their mind or from their experience, rather than from the Lord's feeling. For someone who lived for decades under the impression that the brothers' fellowship is from God's lips through their lips to our ears.....that shook me, and I realized the absurdity of listening, without my own independent thought, to these people who otherwise have no daily or personal involvement/interest in my life.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Trapped

In my personal experience, as a church kid, it is difficult to have any real direction in life when pursuing any direction is represented to you for your whole growing up years as replacing the Lord/an idol/doing things your own way/chasing after things that are all going to burn anyway. It's hard to put energy toward anything or be excited or passionate about something when doing so has been so condemned. It's a great path directly to depression.

Very true. I remember that even from a young age, I was told that anything which didn't have "eternal value" was not worth our time. That definitely led to a diminished enthusiasm about things in life that do matter such as education and a career. When I was in college, I didn't take my studies too seriously (and spent much longer in college than I should have). I was convinced that going to meetings every night of the week was a better use of my time than studying and passing classes.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Freedom

Very true. I remember that even from a young age, I was told that anything which didn't have "eternal value" was not worth our time. That definitely led to a diminished enthusiasm about things in life that do matter such as education and a career. When I was in college, I didn't take my studies too seriously (and spent much longer in college than I should have). I was convinced that going to meetings every night of the week was a better use of my time than studying and passing classes.

When the Lord told me to continue in Graduate School, the "brothers" were not happy about my decision. One elder told me that morning revival with the brothers was not adequate, and that I must also be responsible for the noon time campus meeting. Another elder told me that I was responsible for taking care of an abandoned house the church just purchased. Along with that I had two Lab courses to teach, and managed an apartment building I lived in. I had a wife and young child, but I trusted the brothers. Way too much. We were instructed that they "gave an account for our soul."

So much for that. Two months later, I lost both jobs. We were homeless. Dropped out of school. Do you think any of those elders ever apologized for overloading me? Hardly. Looking back, they often used us as slave labor. The third elder asked me to wire an addition to his house. At least he took me out to eat. Chinese food.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Trapped

In my personal experience, as a church kid, it is difficult to have any real direction in life when pursuing any direction is represented to you for your whole growing up years as replacing the Lord/an idol/doing things your own way/chasing after things that are all going to burn anyway. It's hard to put energy toward anything or be excited or passionate about something when doing so has been so condemned. It's a great path directly to depression.



This is it exactly. Going against the brothers' fellowship is painted as going against the Lord. Problems ensue!

On a small scale, at one point "the brothers" had to make a decision that affected my daily life (this was not unsolicited fellowship or meddling....because of my certain situation I asked them and was looking to them for a solution that they were rightfully on the hook for....it is hard to explain without getting more specific). The fellowship came back that "the brothers feel good about XYZ solution" and upon hearing it I immediately realized that that fellowship was unequivocally the worst possible solution they could have come up with. (There was one vital piece of information they were not aware of that I’m sure would have changed their decision). I realized then that their "feeling" was not the Lord's "feeling", because the Lord would never EVER have led anyone to "feel good" about that solution, regardless of what they know. I then realized their "feeling" is only based on information they know, which means it's just from their mind or from their experience, rather than from the Lord's feeling. For someone who lived for decades under the impression that the brothers' fellowship is from God's lips through their lips to our ears.....that shook me, and I realized the absurdity of listening, without my own independent thought, to these people who otherwise have no daily or personal involvement/interest in my life.

The good news is that you seem to have learned much from the experience.

[leastofthese]

Originally Posted by Ohio

When the Lord told me to continue in Graduate School, the "brothers" were not happy about my decision. One elder told me that morning revival with the brothers was not adequate, and that I must also be responsible for the noon time campus meeting. Another elder told me that I was responsible for taking care of an abandoned house the church just purchased. Along with that I had two Lab courses to teach, and managed an apartment building I lived in. I had a wife and young child, but I trusted the brothers. Way too much. We were instructed that they "gave an account for our soul."

So much for that. Two months later, I lost both jobs. We were homeless. Dropped out of school. Do you think any of those elders ever apologized for overloading me? Hardly. Looking back, they often used us as slave labor. The third elder asked me to wire an addition to his house. At least he took me out to eat. Chinese food.

Interesting terminology, slave labor. In the LSM churches located in my city, the elders are white - but they used the Hispanic/Asian population to do much of the dirty work. I will say one elder in particular got his hands dirty - but still delegated a TON of work to the people of color. He oversaw the properties owned by the organization. I think (or hope) they paid the poor Hispanic guy who did much of the grunt work, but they treated him like crap. I went out of my way to talk to this guy, bring him a water, help out, etc. they treated him like a second class citizen- must not have been good building material. There was a white brother did a lot of A/C and maintenance work. That guy left - and not on good terms. He was probably tired of so called “brothers in Christ” treating him like slave labor.

So sad.

[Ohio]

I had the attitude that we should always appreciate volunteer help from the saints in the church. But I had conflicts with others who disagreed with my tendency to be too lenient. One time I was even chastised for suggesting that we were making up work just to keep the saints busy on Saturday -- "listen to me, we are giving them the opportunity to serve God!"

I helped build Grace Garden homes one year, and I got to see Ray Graver in action. We were just starting to install pre-finished wood floors, getting a few instructions from a brother, and RG walks by and barks out, "get the floor down brothers!" I would not last long working with him.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I then realized their "feeling" is only based on information they know, which means it's just from their mind or from their experience, rather than from the Lord's feeling.

Their feeling may very well be based on a rumor rather than facts. Those rumors become their feeling on which the fellowship flows from. Facts obfuscate their understanding.

[Trapped]

This may be true in some cases, however, I feel I need to state that the elders involved in the situation I described are generally quite diligent in making sure they are operating in the realm of facts over rumors.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Trapped

This may be true in some cases, however, I feel I need to state that the elders involved in the situation I described are generally quite diligent in making sure they are operating in the realm of facts over rumors.

I would agree with this. Although I do recall cases where I could tell the elders acted disingenuously, I think in most cases there was at least an attempt to acknowledge the facts.

As I saw, the problem was that the elders, when presented with the facts, would not make the expected/reasonable decision. Especially when there was some sort of problem/conflict brought to their attention, they would downplay the need to take any action, even while acknowledging the facts and the problem.

Where I am from, there was older sister who was upset by a situation and by the fact that the elders didn't take any action regarding the situation. She in turn decided to start acting spiteful towards anyone and everyone to try to provoke a rise out of whoever she could. The elders didn't do anything about the actions of this sister either. So all because the elders failed to act upon the facts, the problem became much bigger that it should have been.

In the case I mentioned, I know of several cases where people distanced themselves from this sister and even there was at least one family that left completely. And none of this was enough to prompt the elders to take even the slightest bit of action.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by Freedom

As I saw, the problem was that the elders, when presented with the facts, would not make the expected/reasonable decision. Especially when there was some sort of problem/conflict brought to their attention, they would downplay the need to take any action, even while acknowledging the facts and the problem.

Elders and leaders have a certain set of responsibilities. That list includes decision-making and addressing conflict. At a general level, I never saw elders take decision-making too seriously. Major decisions were made lightly, or deferred until the very last minute where an arbitrary decision was made. This was usually characterized as "waiting on the Lord" or "praying over the matter." It generated a perception of spirituality, but it was, in fact, just a cover for indecisiveness.

When it came to elders (not) appropriately addressing conflict, matters got even worse. In the LCM, any indication of conflict is characterized using terminology like: the enemy, the flesh, not in the spirit, etc. I think it tends to make people want to avoid conflict rather than work to find a resolution. What I observed in the LCM is that with most conflicts, either the issue was downplayed as insignificant or one side was expected to "drop the issue" rather than there being any sort of mutual resolution. In either case it alleviated the elders from having to fulfill their responsibilities.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Freedom

I would agree with this. Although I do recall cases where I could tell the elders acted disingenuously, I think in most cases there was at least an attempt to acknowledge the facts.

As I saw, the problem was that the elders, when presented with the facts, would not make the expected/reasonable decision. Especially when there was some sort of problem/conflict brought to their attention, they would downplay the need to take any action, even while acknowledging the facts and the problem.

Where I am from, there was older sister who was upset by a situation and by the fact that the elders didn't take any action regarding the situation. She in turn decided to start acting spiteful towards anyone and everyone to try to provoke a rise out of whoever she could. The elders didn't do anything about the actions of this sister either. So all because the elders failed to act upon the facts, the problem became much bigger that it should have been.

In the case I mentioned, I know of several cases where people distanced themselves from this sister and even there was at least one family that left completely. And none of this was enough to prompt the elders to take even the slightest bit of action.

I've seen the same thing occur. In the face of a genuine, bona fide situation desperately in need of intervention, interest, prayer, and resolution.........the elders sit back like bumps on a log. The very people they are supposed to be shepherding, are of no concern to them. They are fine to let an unresolved and unhealed rift in the church occur while they turn their heads the other way and don't even ask what is going on. It's almost like a willful ignorance, head in the sand, "if I ignore it it will go away" type thing.

[stillseekingtruth]

Freedom, "For lack of a better example, I saw stuff like this happen a lot with the breaking of the bread during the Lord's table. The elders seemed to get really fussy about making sure it happened at the 'right' time, and when the rank and file members attempted to get up to break the bread, somehow it always ended up being the 'wrong' time. But the elders didn't want to appear that they were "running the meeting." Of course, all the rank and file members were afraid of getting reprimanded if they initiated anything. So the elders in turn would often get in a mood and start nudging random brothers that it's time to get up there and break the bread, saying "there's no one in charge here." It's the silly games like that which really tend to mess with people, especially when they try to take it seriously and can't make sense of it all."

__________________
This is exactly howmit was in our locality. Imagine my horror when a sister stood up with her 15 or 16 year old son, prayed, and broke the bread. I believe that is not a sister's place, but because of who she was they made an excuse for her and brushed it off. It was very confusing at times who was really in control.

[Freedom]

Originally Posted by stillseekingtruth

Freedom,

This is exactly how it was in our locality. Imagine my horror when a sisterstood up with her 15 or 16 year old son, prayed, and broke the bread. I believe that is not a sister's place, but because of who she was they made an excuse for her and brushed it off. It was very confusing at times who was really in control.

I think that a lot of the rules/exceptions in the LC came in more of an unspoken form. We learned what to do by example, and in more extreme cases seeing someone get publicly humiliated and then not wanting to be the next person that happened to.

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Freedom

This thread is intended to discuss the impact that the LCM has on people's personality traits and also the results of that impact. It should be noted that I am approaching this topic as someone who was born and raised in the LCM, so I might have a different take on the issue than those who came into the LCM later in life.

Early on, I became aware that in the LCM, certain personality traits like assertiveness were generally frowned upon. I also observed how people acted and interacted, and I took that as an example. The result? I learned to act in a passive way, I learned to not speak up for myself and never I learned how to say "no" to people. Of course, not all of that can be blamed on the LCM, but I feel it is fair to say that the LCM was a big influencing factor.

I can relate to Freedom. My experiences are uniquely mine, though perhaps others can relate. Whether a teen or a young adult in the Local Churches, I had no empowerment to say no. Just comply. Saying no is akin to being "rebellious". Submission and Authority were the teachings often referenced.
I learned to comply even if your thoughts say no. This affects every day living and not just the time spent in a LC function. I would have thoughts I cannot say no and to do so would make me the villain.
Long term result I ended up having no ownership over my boundaries. Time after time my boundaries ended up being trespassed.