Spirit of Life

[Dave]

None of us have perfect answers no matter how much we believe we know or how spiritual we believe we are. I frequently have seen this statement, "...as the Spirit leads me..." Of course, did "...the Spirit" lead us into the LC and then later lead us out of the LC. When we left the LC did the Spirit lead those who wanted to follow Jesus to different churches with different beliefs, different doctrines, different lifestyles etc. This was the problem with the LC because we all believed they had the correct doctrine with the LC so the idea was that growth was just a matter of experiencing Jesus within the context of the LC.

I recently saw a person on this forum who said that each of us will be led differently in regards to leaving the LC. It all seems so wishy washy. Is Revelation correct about the fact that you are either hot or cold because if you are wishy washy you will be spewed out of his mouth? So you better be hot or cold...so how is the Spirit leading people if it is not leading people to the same result in their life? For example, same Church, same Doctrines, same Lifestyle, etc.

A related question is that if you are "hot" (even genuinely) in the LC you generally will be demanding that people tow the LC line because you believe that you have found the way but this process can impact people's lives as we all know. How does the Spirit of Life lead people to be hot or cold after exiting from the LC?

I explained in a post a few weeks ago that because of that verse in Revelation when I left the LC that I did not want to be spewed out for being lukewarm and after seeing the state of churches today I decided to go cold. It didn't mean that I went crazy but I focused more on work, family and related issues. Certainly I am interested in those who have left the LC and their experiences so how is the Spirit leading them and what decisions have they made.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Dave

None of us have perfect answers no matter how much we believe we know or how spiritual we believe we are. I frequently have seen this statement, "...as the Spirit leads me..." Of course, did "...the Spirit" lead us into the LC and then later lead us out of the LC.

I believe so. The LC's were just part of our journey.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Dave

I explained in a post a few weeks ago that because of that verse in Revelation when I left the LC that I did not want to be spewed out for being lukewarm and after seeing the state of churches today I decided to go cold. It didn't mean that I went crazy but I focused more on work, family and related issues. Certainly I am interested in those who have left the LC and their experiences so how is the Spirit leading them and what decisions have they made.

Please define hot or cold. Is someone that leaves the LC and becomes a Buddhist hot or cold? How about my friend, who was an elder in the LC, and is now a native American Indian shaman, is he hot or cold?

[Dave]

Originally Posted by awareness

Please define hot or cold. Is someone that leaves the LC and becomes a Buddhist hot or cold? How about my friend, who was an elder in the LC, and is now a native American Indian shaman, is he hot or cold?

This is not a definitive list but hopefully you get the picture. HOT---Holds to the faith in all things etc. In other words --- all out is HOT and just going through the motions is Luke Warm.... I had spoken to a missionary who came back to the US and just felt that he was unable to stay here because of the degradation among the members in the US churches and went back to South America. It doesn't mean there weren't individuals or pockets of individuals but in general it was problematic from his perspective and he was a devout Christian. I don't know that it has changed much since then and as I have said the politicization of Christianity has only made it worse. In any case, that was the decision I made back in 1980 or so--to go cold which allowed me to look at where I had been and where I wanted to go but it has all been a journey as Ohio has said in a different context. In a sense, for me, going through the LC was helpful in that it caused me to look at my life after having those in Christianity wanting to control everything and decide which direction I needed to take in consideration of family, work etc.

HOT --- RED HOT	Luke Warm	COLD
Preach the Gospel at every opportunity --- Red Hot	Occasionally Preach the Gospel	NEITHER HOT NOR LUKEWARM
Pray at every opportunity by self/with others/with family	Pray occasionally	NEITHER HOT NOR LUKEWARM
Study their Bible regularly/teach or attend Bible studies	Intermittently study Bible/may attend a Bible study on occasion if it seems suitable	NEITHER HOT NOR LUKEWARM
Devotional read their Bible at every opportunity/Mix with prayer	Occasionally read their Bible devotionally	NEITHER HOT NOR LUKEWARM
Look to the Spirit of Life and the Bible for Direction in all things	Occasionally will pray for direction	NEITHER HOT NOR LUKEWARM
Meet with other Christians during the week and on Sundays---available at all times for other Christians	Attend a Christian Church regularly/have friends in Church but not actively involved in the church life	NEITHER HOT NOR LUKEWARM
Martyrdom for the faith if necessary/no fear of suffering	Have a name of being alive but are dead	NEITHER HOT NOR LUKEWARM
Test those who claim they are Apostles	Say they are rich and have prospered and need nothing	NEITHER HOT NOR LUKEWARM
Works are perfect		NEITHER HOT NOR LUKEWARM
No tolerance for evildoers		NEITHER HOT NOR LUKEWARM

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Dave

This is not a definitive list but hopefully you get the picture. HOT---Holds to the faith in all things etc. In other words --- all out is HOT and just going through the motions is Luke Warm.... I had spoken to a missionary who came back to the US and just felt that he was unable to stay here because of the degradation among the members in the US churches and went back to South America. It doesn't mean there weren't individuals or pockets of individuals but in general it was problematic from his perspective and he was a devout Christian. I don't know that it has changed much since then and as I have said the politicization of Christianity has only made it worse. In any case, that was the decision I made back in 1980 or so--to go cold which allowed me to look at where I had been and where I wanted to go but it has all been a journey as Ohio has said in a different context.

That list would plug right in to our fundamentalism thread. In which case to be HOT all you have to be is a active fundamentalist.

[bearbear]

Originally Posted by awareness

That list would plug right in to our fundamentalism thread. In which case to be HOT all you have to be is a active fundamentalist.

By the criteria/list that was posted, the Pharisees would be the "hottest" and the ones God loves the most, but Jesus hated the works of the Pharisees the most. In Rev 2,3 Jesus' main complaint was when churches didn't love Him like they should.

The Hot/Cold designation IMO just comes down to whether or not you have passion/love for Jesus. This can only come about in relationship with Jesus when he show us personally how much he loves us simply because we are God's children. If someone ends up doing all these works without any intimacy or relationship with Jesus, it probably won't be pretty.

If you view the Christian life as a list of things to do, you will view it as an incredible burden. But Jesus said all of us who are weary would find rest in Him, so if we're feeling burned out something is wrong. Martha thought she was serving God by doing all these things for Jesus, and she later became bitter and complained but Jesus just wanted her to come and spend time with Him like Mary was doing.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by bearbear

By the criteria/list that was posted, the Pharisees would be the "hottest" and the ones God loves the most, but Jesus hated the works of the Pharisees the most. In Rev 2,3 Jesus' main complaint was when churches didn't love Him like they should.

I think that list came from the Blendeds, so he must have forgot all the trainings to attend, and don't forget to prophecy.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by bearbear

By the criteria/list that was posted, the Pharisees would be the "hottest" and the ones God loves the most, but Jesus hated the works of the Pharisees the most. In Rev 2,3 Jesus' main complaint was when churches didn't love Him like they should.

The Hot/Cold designation IMO just comes down to whether or not you have passion/love for Jesus. This can only come about in relationship with Jesus when he show us personally how much he loves us simply because we are God's children. If someone ends up doing all these works without any intimacy or relationship with Jesus, it probably won't be pretty.

If you view the Christian life as a list of things to do, you will view it as an incredible burden. But Jesus said all of us who are weary would find rest in Him, so if we're feeling burned out something is wrong. Martha thought she was serving God by doing all these things for Jesus, and she later became bitter and complained but Jesus just wanted her to come and spend time with Him like Mary was doing.

I only made the list at the request of awareness but the list noted was listed as a possible outcome of one's devotion to Jesus and not just a list of things to do. I suppose, like Brother Lawrence one could be a devoted Christian in a monastery and practice the presence of God while washing pots and pans showing devotion but there still would be an outcome. Even the book of Brother Lawrence written after his death was a testimony and an outcome of his life.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I think that list came from the Blendeds, so he must have forgot all the trainings to attend, and don't forget to prophecy.

Because I left in 1978 and only attended suggested conferences in Anaheim with Witness Lee (e.g. Hebrews and Revelation) I didn't get the full blast you all did with the necessary trainings to attend. JI and BM came around and gave conferences at our locality but that was about it. While we spoke in meetings back in those days it wasn't called prophesying, at least where I was. Prophesying was something the Pentecostals did in their meetings. The LC evolved and apparently for the worst.

[OBW]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave

This is not a definitive list but hopefully you get the picture. HOT---Holds to the faith in all things etc. In other words --- all out is HOT and just going through the motions is Luke Warm.... I had spoken to a missionary who came back to the US and just felt that he was unable to stay here because of the degradation among the members in the US churches and went back to South America. It doesn't mean there weren't individuals or pockets of individuals but in general it was problematic from his perspective and he was a devout Christian. I don't know that it has changed much since then and as I have said the politicization of Christianity has only made it worse. In any case, that was the decision I made back in 1980 or so--to go cold which allowed me to look at where I had been and where I wanted to go but it has all been a journey as Ohio has said in a different context. In a sense, for me, going through the LC was helpful in that it caused me to look at my life after having those in Christianity wanting to control everything and decide which direction I needed to take in consideration of family, work etc.

I am as conservative a Christian as there is, yet I would not subscribe to this list in the manner given. First, I disagree with Lee that there is the clergy/laity problem and instead have come to see that the edict to "go ye into all the earth" was given to a few who were taken aside, not to the whole of those following at the time, so even number one is simply incorrect as an analysis of the hot – lukewarm – cold spectrum. And for the most part, the whole list stands in the same way.

Many who were diligent running out to preach the gospel will evidently be greeted with "depart from me." Activity, or the lack of it, is not the key.

But I agree that many Christians have this funny notion of what is the Spirit's leading. They even need to analyze the day to prove out for themselves that they were always within God's leading. Or alternately that God was "in control" and attribute everything to God — even the serious accident they were in in which a passenger in the other car died. They have this need to attribute everything to the sovereign hand of God.

I do not believe that we can assert that God led us unto the LRC. He may have in some cases, but that would mean that he intended for us to be the ones who experienced a cult and got out. I see no reason due to the direction of God for anyone to remain in the LRC, so I have a hard time believing that God led them in. But once they are there, I do accept that how God leads them, whether strongly enough to move them out, or just leaves them there where they are still under the leading of abusers is his choice. If everything about our life was intended to be the best it could be, we probably really would all be in the same church and it really would be wonderful. But since living in hard times during this life seems to be part of what God will use to shape us, leaving some behind in the LRC, or the RCC, or in underground churches in oppressive countries is not unexpected. Remember, in the letters to the 7 churches, there was never an edict to leave the worst among them and move to Philadelphia. You have to overcome whatever you have before you.

Besides Jesus said that things happen. Towers fall and you can't point to a reason. Rains come and sometimes they don't. People get into really good assembles and others don't (well he didn't actually say that).

We look on the outward things. God looks at the heart. My assessment of Laodicea — the place where the lukewarm reference is found — is that they were, as a group, putting on a show of piety and spirituality yet were not what they claimed. That seems to be correlated with lukewarm. Say you are when you are not. In effect, a lie. Sort of like what Yoda said. Something like "There is no try. Do, or do not." Trying, or more accurately acting as if, is lukewarm. You want to be, but not enough to actually be.

__________________
Mike
I think . . . . I think I am . . . . therefore I am, I think — Edge
OR . . . . You may be right, I may be crazy — Joel

[Dave]

Originally Posted by OBW

I am as conservative a Christian as there is, yet I would not subscribe to this list in the manner given. First, I disagree with Lee that there is the clergy/laity problem and instead have come to see that the edict to "go ye into all the earth" was given to a few who were taken aside, not to the whole of those following at the time, so even number one is simply incorrect as an analysis of the hot – lukewarm – cold spectrum. And for the most part, the whole list stands in the same way.

Many who were diligent running out to preach the gospel will evidently be greeted with "depart from me." Activity, or the lack of it, is not the key.

But I agree that many Christians have this funny notion of what is the Spirit's leading. They even need to analyze the day to prove out for themselves that they were always within God's leading. Or alternately that God was "in control" and attribute everything to God — even the serious accident they were in in which a passenger in the other car died. They have this need to attribute everything to the sovereign hand of God.

I do not believe that we can assert that God led us unto the LRC. He may have in some cases, but that would mean that he intended for us to be the ones who experienced a cult and got out. I see no reason due to the direction of God for anyone to remain in the LRC, so I have a hard time believing that God led them in. But once they are there, I do accept that how God leads them, whether strongly enough to move them out, or just leaves them there where they are still under the leading of abusers is his choice. If everything about our life was intended to be the best it could be, we probably really would all be in the same church and it really would be wonderful. But since living in hard times during this life seems to be part of what God will use to shape us, leaving some behind in the LRC, or the RCC, or in underground churches in oppressive countries is not unexpected. Remember, in the letters to the 7 churches, there was never an edict to leave the worst among them and move to Philadelphia. You have to overcome whatever you have before you.

Besides Jesus said that things happen. Towers fall and you can't point to a reason. Rains come and sometimes they don't. People get into really good assembles and others don't (well he didn't actually say that).

We look on the outward things. God looks at the heart. My assessment of Laodicea — the place where the lukewarm reference is found — is that they were, as a group, putting on a show of piety and spirituality yet were not what they claimed. That seems to be correlated with lukewarm. Say you are when you are not. In effect, a lie. Sort of like what Yoda said. Something like "There is no try. Do, or do not." Trying, or more accurately acting as if, is lukewarm. You want to be, but not enough to actually be.

The Book of Revelation was addressed to the 7 churches in Asia Minor and the longest distance between them is at the most about 100+ miles and as close as 20 miles so all the churches would have had access to the writings in Revelation and to each other. I am sure if someone wanted to go to Philadelphia they would probably just go there and Philadelphia was so hospitable they would have received them. It’s interesting that these churches are so extreme and different considering their proximity e.g. the church in Ephesus rejects the Nicolaitans which Jesus hates and the church in Pergamum has some who “hold to the teaching of the Nicolatians” and they are only about 100 miles apart. The church in Thyatria is into paganism eating food sacrificed to idols but only 20 miles from Thyatria and 50 miles from Philadelphia. Sardis is only 20 miles from Philadelphia but Jesus states that they have a name of being alive but are dead.

It’s an interesting interpretation of Mark 16:15 and Matt 28:19 (go ye into all the world) but I don’t have a problem with it since from my perspective it was fulfilled in Acts 2:5-13.

My list and notes regarding the list is based on Evangelical Christian’s perspectives but there are many perspectives out there to follow. What has happened and I don’t know if you are in this situation but it appears that many that are Conservative Christians are mostly “socially conservative” which translates to politically conservative. That is why my list is strictly related to the Bible without any political overtones.
How the Spirit is leading people in the LC when you consider that many leaving the LC stop by on this forum for some direction of the Spirit's leading and fellowship trying to find their way. That is what prompted me to start this thread because so many drop in and looking for the Spirit of Life for direction after either leaving the LC or still in it and do not know what to do.

You’re right about attributing everything to the sovereign hand of God. I guess it is when to determine when you do and when you don’t make this attribution. Anyway, thanks.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Dave

None of us have perfect answers no matter how much we believe we know or how spiritual we believe we are. I frequently have seen this statement, "...as the Spirit leads me..." Of course, did "...the Spirit" lead us into the LC and then later lead us out of the LC. When we left the LC did the Spirit lead those who wanted to follow Jesus to different churches with different beliefs, different doctrines, different lifestyles etc. This was the problem with the LC because we all believed they had the correct doctrine with the LC so the idea was that growth was just a matter of experiencing Jesus within the context of the LC. I recently saw a person on this forum who said that each of us will be led differently in regards to leaving the LC. It all seems so wishy washy. Is Revelation correct about the fact that you are either hot or cold because if you are wishy washy you will be spewed out of his mouth? So you better be hot or cold...so how is the Spirit leading people if it is not leading people to the same result in their life? For example, same Church, same Doctrines, same Lifestyle, etc.

Interesting question. Can you clarify what you mean by supplying examples of people being led by the Spirit identically instead of "differently"?

In Luke 12 Jesus said

“I came to send fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! But I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how distressed I am till it is accomplished! Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division. For from now on five in one house will be divided: three against two, and two against three. Father will be divided against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against her daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.”

That seems to be a pretty accurate description of the current state of affairs. So, perhaps the Spirit has done its job.

A related question is that if you are "hot" (even genuinely) in the LC you generally will be demanding that people tow the LC line because you believe that you have found the way but this process can impact people's lives as we all know. How does the Spirit of Life lead people to be hot or cold after exiting from the LC? I explained in a post a few weeks ago that because of that verse in Revelation when I left the LC that I did not want to be spewed out for being lukewarm and after seeing the state of churches today I decided to go cold. It didn't mean that I went crazy but I focused more on work, family and related issues. Certainly I am interested in those who have left the LC and their experiences so how is the Spirit leading them and what decisions have they made.

Wow Dave, you really took that verse so seriously that you decided to go cold so that you could stay in Christ's mouth? Do you feel you succeeded?

The effect the "spew" verse always had on me when I was in the LC was to make me think I was lukewarm so I better get moving and stoke the fire with whatever the Lord was supposedly doing at the time. I surmised that was result the verse was intended to evoke. If you're hot you can always be hotter, cold you can always be colder. Whether you qualify for Christ's mouth... how would anybody know? Hence, the appropriate response seems to be fear and trembling no matter what you're temperature is.

Correct me if I'm wrong but, I think what you're really asking, albeit in spiritually terminology, is what is the meaning of life, and how do people evaluate their own lives according to it. Yes? No?

[rayliotta]

Originally Posted by zeek

In Luke 12 Jesus said

That seems to be a pretty accurate description of the current state of affairs. So, perhaps the Spirit has done its job.

I now realize that the Recovery is not a cult. Because, in the Lord's Recovery, families get ripped apart at the seams with some regularity! Therefore...it is Biblical!

[awareness]

Originally Posted by bearbear

By the criteria/list that was posted, the Pharisees would be the "hottest" and the ones God loves the most, but Jesus hated the works of the Pharisees the most. In Rev 2,3 Jesus' main complaint was when churches didn't love Him like they should.

The Hot/Cold designation IMO just comes down to whether or not you have passion/love for Jesus. This can only come about in relationship with Jesus when he show us personally how much he loves us simply because we are God's children. If someone ends up doing all these works without any intimacy or relationship with Jesus, it probably won't be pretty.

If you view the Christian life as a list of things to do, you will view it as an incredible burden. But Jesus said all of us who are weary would find rest in Him, so if we're feeling burned out something is wrong. Martha thought she was serving God by doing all these things for Jesus, and she later became bitter and complained but Jesus just wanted her to come and spend time with Him like Mary was doing.

So love makes one HOT ... the more love the hotter ... the most love makes one hotter than hell, I guess.

Hey Dave, when you went COLD did you stop loving?

[Dave]

Originally Posted by awareness

So love makes one HOT ... the more love the hotter ... the most love makes one hotter than hell, I guess.

Hey Dave, when you went COLD did you stop loving?

Have you ever heard of COLD love? It wasn't all that bad...kind of releasing...part of the problem is that we get out of breath...we are running this race...trying to keep up with all the stuff thrown at us and running through it...we need a breather...a step back...a sabbatical....refreshment.... so that we can take a look at where we are, who we are, and where we want to go...among other things..

[Dave]

Originally Posted by zeek

Interesting question. Can you clarify what you mean by supplying examples of people being led by the Spirit identically instead of "differently"?

My point, I believe, was that the Spirit has one purpose and each of us should be pulled/directed in the same way. On the other hand, I am sure that because we each are different the Spirit will affect us differently just as a drug (medication) may affect us differently, a food may taste differently to each of us, an experience may affect us differently etc. Maybe God didn’t fully understand the human experience and didn’t realize how the Spirit impacts each of us differently based on who we are so that we are all reacting differently to the Spirit of Life. The cookie cutter Spirit of Life just may not work on us humans in the way anticipated.

Originally Posted by zeek

In Luke 12 Jesus said
That seems to be a pretty accurate description of the current state of affairs. So, perhaps the Spirit has done its job.

Perhaps you are correct.

Originally Posted by zeek

Wow Dave, you really took that verse so seriously that you decided to go cold so that you could stay in Christ's mouth? Do you feel you succeeded?
The effect the "spew" verse always had on me when I was in the LC was to make me think I was lukewarm so I better get moving and stoke the fire with whatever the Lord was supposedly doing at the time. I surmised that was result the verse was intended to evoke. If you're hot you can always be hotter, cold you can always be colder. Whether you qualify for Christ's mouth... how would anybody know? Hence, the appropriate response seems to be fear and trembling no matter what you're temperature is.

I succeeded…Unfortunately we are all probably in his mouth in some fashion and I can certainly relate to your point of never doing enough to meet God’s expectations. Fear and trembling…that can be life itself without even bringing God into the picture.

Originally Posted by zeek

Correct me if I'm wrong but, I think what you're really asking, albeit in spiritually terminology, is what is the meaning of life, and how do people evaluate their own lives according to it. Yes? No?

I hope I am a seeker of truth, at least making sense of truth in my own and my family’s life but not only myself but hopefully everyone has the opportunity to seek the truth for their own lives and if the Spirit of Life leads them to the deeper things of God, so be it. In answer to your question, YES.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Dave

if the Spirit of Life leads them to the deeper things of God, so be it.

When you say "Spirit of Life" what do you mean?

And what's all the stray code trailing your posts when I click "Quote" to your post?

[Dave]

Originally Posted by awareness

When you say "Spirit of Life" what do you mean?

And what's all the stray code trailing your posts when I click "Quote" to your post?

As I indicated when I initially started the Spirit of Life thread...it was because I read where numerous people were talking about how the Spirit of God was leading this way or had led them this other way etc. So, I just wanted to explore what was meant by this "the Spirit...leading me this way or that way...." That is where I explained I had taken the cold route. On the other hand, the Spirit of Life can be approached from any perspective in one's life and could be shared.

In the context of what you quoted, however, I was just relating that being a seeker we all need some guidance and I was referencing the "guidance" as the "Spirit of Life".

As far as the stray code...maybe it is where I am being led...

[zeek]

Originally Posted by rayliotta

I now realize that the Recovery is not a cult. Because, in the Lord's Recovery, families get ripped apart at the seams with some regularity! Therefore...it is Biblical!

This verse shows Jesus didn't always value the family preeminently.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Dave

My point, I believe, was that the Spirit has one purpose and each of us should be pulled/directed in the same way.

Really, what one purpose and same way are those?

On the other hand, I am sure that because we each are different the Spirit will affect us differently just as a drug (medication) may affect us differently, a food may taste differently to each of us, an experience may affect us differently etc.

That's possible. There's no way to know another's experience directly, certainly or completely.

Maybe God didn’t fully understand the human experience and didn’t realize how the Spirit impacts each of us differently based on who we are so that we are all reacting differently to the Spirit of Life.The cookie cutter Spirit of Life just may not work on us humans in the way anticipated.

Why do you assume that the Spirit of Life is a cookie cutter? Once you question God's omni-attributes, it is no longer clear if the entity you're describing is God. Is a being of limited understanding the ultimate and absolute God? Not if God is defined as that Being than which no greater can be conceived. If God is defined otherwise than that then whatever is greater is God. Not to say that that can be shown to be the case, only that if you propose it is not, it puts the burden on you to explain what you mean by "God."

I hope I am a seeker of truth, at least making sense of truth in my own and my family’s life but not only myself but hopefully everyone has the opportunity to seek the truth for their own lives and if the Spirit of Life leads them to the deeper things of God, so be it. In answer to your question, YES.

I observe myself seeking the truth. If I am being deceived by an evil demon or the Freudian Id, the demon or I'd is doing such a fine job of deceiving me that I am unaware of it. On the other hand, I do see other people who seem to me to be deceiving themselves. Perhaps to others, I might be one who seems to be deceiving myself. God is supposed to be the ultimate judge, but you have suggested that God may not fully understand us either. That seems like an unsatisfactory state of affairs, but, maybe that isn't what you had in mind at all. So, I'll wait for you to answer my questions above before I proceed further.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by zeek

Really, what one purpose and same way are those?

I wish I could tell you unequivocally but in my opinion Christians have completely confused the purpose and way of the Spirit of Life. That is why I put up this thread. We can listen to our own conscience and follow what we believe the Spirit is telling us but even on this forum we have multiple directions from various people. I know that UntoHim is trying to keep people on the straight and narrow but I wonder if that is productive even for lurkers.

Originally Posted by zeek

Why do you assume that the Spirit of Life is a cookie cutter? Once you question God's omni-attributes, it is no longer clear if the entity you're describing is God. Is a being of limited understanding the ultimate and absolute God? Not if God is defined as that Being than which no greater can be conceived. If God is defined otherwise than that then whatever is greater is God. Not to say that that can be shown to be the case, only that if you propose it is not, it puts the burden on you to explain what you mean by "God."

Great question. We always believe that God is intentional with one purpose and direction but then again he has thrown some curve balls. For example, the Jews who were very knowledgeable about the Scriptures never accepted Jesus dying on the cross as their Messiah because even though the NT writers use Jewish Scripture to try and prove their point (e.g. Matthew—why did he have to go through all the explanations he did if it was clear) the reason they did not accept Jesus was because he didn’t fulfill OT scriptures from their perspective---to establish a Kingdom and overthrow the Romans. So he threw them a curve ball. Jesus made it clear that he was going to establish the Kingdom of God but he didn’t and confused the disciples. Paul thought that Jesus was going to return within his generation but he didn’t---another curve ball. Of course Christians keep quoting…”no one knows the time”…that’s for sure. He has thrown everyone a curve ball. He’s intentional but despite having the very word of God at our disposal no one really has figured out anything. Even Hal Lindsay. It has become more than a guessing game. That’s the question….the Spirit of Life…what’s the intention for us individually and corporately?

Originally Posted by zeek

I observe myself seeking the truth. If I am being deceived by an evil demon or the Freudian Id, the demon or I'd is doing such a fine job of deceiving me that I am unaware of it. On the other hand, I do see other people who seem to me to be deceiving themselves. Perhaps to others, I might be one who seems to be deceiving myself. God is supposed to be the ultimate judge, but you have suggested that God may not fully understand us either. That seems like an unsatisfactory state of affairs, but, maybe that isn't what you had in mind at all. So, I'll wait for you to answer my questions above before I proceed further.

Perception is certainly part of the equation. On the other hand God doesn’t understand us. There is a communication problem and it is on his end to straighten it out. We are just limited mortals by our minds and spirits and we are supposed to figure out every sense or feeling of God. By direct revelation he made himself known to Paul and to others. I guess he expects the rest of us to just roll on faith alone after 2000 years…no questions asked. Okay, we can ask questions but have we received any answers. We have the Bible but I don't find the answers necessarily relevant to us today even though the Bible sits in front of me in my study at all times which I often reference and peruse.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Dave

I wish I could tell you unequivocally but in my opinion Christians have completely confused the purpose and way of the Spirit of Life. That is why I put up this thread. We can listen to our own conscience and follow what we believe the Spirit is telling us but even on this forum we have multiple directions from various people. I know that UntoHim is trying to keep people on the straight and narrow but I wonder if that is productive even for lurkers.

It's difficult to admit when you don't know. How many followers would Witness Lee have had if he admitted he did not know what God's purpose was ?

Great question. We always believe that God is intentional with one purpose and direction but then again he has thrown some curve balls. For example, the Jews who were very knowledgeable about the Scriptures never accepted Jesus dying on the cross as their Messiah because even though the NT writers use Jewish Scripture to try and prove their point (e.g. Matthew—why did he have to go through all the explanations he did if it was clear) the reason they did not accept Jesus was because he didn’t fulfill OT scriptures from their perspective---to establish a Kingdom and overthrow the Romans. So he threw them a curve ball. Jesus made it clear that he was going to establish the Kingdom of God but he didn’t and confused the disciples. Paul thought that Jesus was going to return within his generation but he didn’t---another curve ball. Of course Christians keep quoting…”no one knows the time”…that’s for sure. He has thrown everyone a curve ball. He’s intentional but despite having the very word of God at our disposal no one really has figured out anything. Even Hal Lindsay. It has become more than a guessing game. That’s the question….the Spirit of Life…what’s the intention for us individually and corporately?

Your frame of reference seems to be eschatology. Aren't you thinking in the categories like those Jesus described in Luke 17:21, who say "Lo here! or, lo there!" when in fact, "...behold, the kingdom of God is within you"?

Perception is certainly part of the equation. On the other hand God doesn’t understand us. There is a communication problem and it is on his end to straighten it out.

That seems to be your presumption. I don't see how you could possibly know that. You have repeated the allegation without supporting evidence. I have already pointed out how your conception of God seems to be flawed because it lacks ultimacy. You haven't shown that I'm wrong about that.

We are just limited mortals by our minds and spirits and we are supposed to figure out every sense or feeling of God. By direct revelation he made himself known to Paul and to others. I guess he expects the rest of us to just roll on faith alone after 2000 years…no questions asked. Okay, we can ask questions but have we received any answers.

We live in the so-called Information Age, It's understandable that knowing is over-rated. Faith is under-rated by its detractors who associate it with failed religion. It's often misunderstood by those who claim it. They measure faith by the ability to believe implausible things. The more implausible a thing you can believe, the greater your faith. I see faith as our connection to the Absolute or Ultimate Reality which cannot be understood intellectually. Our first hand conscious participation in It is enough. But, I'm all for asking questions. They might shine a light on what is really going on.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by zeek

It's difficult to admit when you don't know. How many followers would Witness Lee have had if he admitted he did not know what God's purpose was ?

Witness Lee could say he knew the purpose of God but WL also has a body of work that you can look at (writings and practical application in the LC) and determine that he was confused or if not confused then misleading. Was the purpose of God to make WL an apostle in the lineage of Martin Luther to lead Christians to another confusing denomination? Has God really been waiting 2000 years for Christians to get their act together in LCs around the globe so he can return to set up his kingdom? My point is, “What is he waiting for?”

We all were led to believe that we were bringing the Lord back but it doesn’t appear that was realistic. So here we are, as Christians, running around, preaching the gospel, praying, being led by the Spirit, reading our Bible etc. We just keep doing this decade after decade, century after century, and millennium after millennium, to what end---going to heaven? I thought the whole idea was that Christ was going to return to bring in the kingdom---that was his purpose…why did he inspire to have the book of Revelation written for goodness sake? Do you think the earlier writers of the NT would have imagined that he would not have set up his kingdom by now? Based on Jesus' statements, Jesus didn't nor did Paul nor did the others who wrote inspired letters believe it would be thousands of years in the future before Christ would set up his kingdom if he ever does. Is God playing a joke on us? In any case, is the Spirit of Life leading us around in circles? While the Bible tries to make it clear that no would know the day or hour but the Father no one was anticipating thousands of years would go by before it happened. What's wrong with this picture?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Dave

Witness Lee could say he knew the purpose of God but WL also has a body of work that you can look at (writings and practical application in the LC) and determine that he was confused or if not confused then misleading. Was the purpose of God to make WL an apostle in the lineage of Martin Luther to lead Christians to another confusing denomination? Has God really been waiting 2000 years for Christians to get their act together in LCs around the globe so he can return to set up his kingdom? My point is, “What is he waiting for?”

There may still be folks in the LC who believe that they are what God is doing on the earth today. There are others who can look at the Bible and see a different time table for eschatology. Personally I have given up on certainty about anything metaphysical. It is as you commented before "beyond my paygrade." Did you ever see "Waiting for Godot" by Samuel Beckett? Here's an excerpt. Does it sound familiar?

VLADIMIR:
Did you ever read the Bible?
ESTRAGON:
The Bible . . . (He reflects.) I must have taken a look at it.
VLADIMIR:
Do you remember the Gospels?
ESTRAGON:
I remember the maps of the Holy Land. Coloured they were. Very pretty. The Dead Sea was pale blue. The very look of it made me thirsty. That's where we'll go, I used to say, that's where we'll go for our honeymoon. We'll swim. We'll be happy.
VLADIMIR:
You should have been a poet.
ESTRAGON:
I was. (Gesture towards his rags.) Isn't that obvious?
Silence.
VLADIMIR:
Where was I . . . How's your foot?
ESTRAGON:
Swelling visibly.
VLADIMIR:
Ah yes, the two thieves. Do you remember the story?
ESTRAGON:
No.
VLADIMIR:
Shall I tell it to you?
ESTRAGON:
No.
VLADIMIR:
It'll pass the time. (Pause.) Two thieves, crucified at the same time as our Saviour. One—
ESTRAGON:
Our what?
VLADIMIR:
Our Saviour. Two thieves. One is supposed to have been saved and the other . . . (he searches for the contrary of saved) . . . damned.
ESTRAGON:
Saved from what?
VLADIMIR:
Hell.
ESTRAGON:
I'm going.
He does not move.
VLADIMIR:
And yet . . . (pause) . . . how is it –this is not boring you I hope– how is it that of the four Evangelists only one speaks of a thief being saved. The four of them were there –or thereabouts– and only one speaks of a thief being saved. (Pause.) Come on, Gogo, return the ball, can't you, once in a way?
ESTRAGON:
(with exaggerated enthusiasm). I find this really most extraordinarily interesting.
VLADIMIR:
One out of four. Of the other three, two don't mention any thieves at all and the third says that both of them abused him.
ESTRAGON:
Who?
VLADIMIR:
What?
ESTRAGON:
What's all this about? Abused who?
VLADIMIR:
The Saviour.
ESTRAGON:
Why?
VLADIMIR:
Because he wouldn't save them.
ESTRAGON:
From hell?
VLADIMIR:
Imbecile! From death.
ESTRAGON:
I thought you said hell.
VLADIMIR:
From death, from death.
ESTRAGON:
Well what of it?
VLADIMIR:
Then the two of them must have been damned.
ESTRAGON:
And why not?
VLADIMIR:
But one of the four says that one of the two was saved.
ESTRAGON:
Well? They don't agree and that's all there is to it.
VLADIMIR:
But all four were there. And only one speaks of a thief being saved. Why believe him rather than the others?
ESTRAGON:
Who believes him?
VLADIMIR:
Everybody. It's the only version they know.
ESTRAGON:
People are bloody ignorant apes.
He rises painfully, goes limping to extreme left, halts, gazes into distance off with his hand screening his eyes, turns, goes to extreme right, gazes into
distance. Vladimir watches him, then goes and picks up the boot, peers into it, drops it hastily.
VLADIMIR:
Pah!
He spits. Estragon moves to center, halts with his back to auditorium.
ESTRAGON:
Charming spot. (He turns, advances to front, halts facing auditorium.) Inspiring prospects. (He turns to Vladimir.) Let's go.
VLADIMIR:
We can't.
ESTRAGON:
Why not?
VLADIMIR:
We're waiting for Godot.

We all were led to believe that we were bringing the Lord back but it doesn’t appear that was realistic. So here we are, as Christians, running around, preaching the gospel, praying, being led by the Spirit, reading our Bible etc. We just keep doing this decade after decade, century after century, and millennium after millennium, to what end---going to heaven? I thought the whole idea was that Christ was going to return to bring in the kingdom---that was his purpose…why did he inspire to have the book of Revelation written for goodness sake? Do you think the earlier writers of the NT would have imagined that he would not have set up his kingdom by now? Based on Jesus' statements, Jesus didn't nor did Paul nor did the others who wrote inspired letters believe it would be thousands of years in the future before Christ would set up his kingdom if he ever does. Is God playing a joke on us? In any case, is the Spirit of Life leading us around in circles? While the Bible tries to make it clear that no would know the day or hour but the Father no one was anticipating thousands of years would go by before it happened. What's wrong with this picture?

The irony is, we are in the midst of an environmental apocalypse as we speak. Maybe you're looking in the wrong place. At the risk of sounding like a broken record let me replay this for you "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

[Dave]

Originally Posted by zeek

The irony is, we are in the midst of an environmental apocalypse as we speak. Maybe you're looking in the wrong place. At the risk of sounding like a broken record let me replay this for you "Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you."

Luke 17:21 It can also be read "among you" and if you read from 22 on you realize he is taking about himself as the Kingdom of God and the rapture so contextually I don't see your translation work with the other verses. However that is the only way I can understand God or the Kingdom of God (within). The rest of it doesn't make sense.

The environmental apocalypse is man made. I'm not blaming God for that.

[zeek]

Originally Posted by Dave

Luke 17:21 It can also be read "among you" and if you read from 22 on you realize he is taking about himself as the Kingdom of God and the rapture so contextually I don't see your translation work with the other verses. However that is the only way I can understand God or the Kingdom of God (within). The rest of it doesn't make sense.

Either way it is translated, the result hinges on whether or not Jesus was "like us." If he was like us then if the Kingdom was in him, then it is in us too.

The environmental apocalypse is man made. I'm not blaming God for that.

I imagine God feels relieved.

[awareness]

Concerning The Spirit of Life.

Some Christians today believe the Holy Spirit stopped moving at Pentecost. I've had more than one Church of Christ Christian tell me that. I even had one that, because of Ephesians 6:17 said, the Word, or Bible, is the Spirit today.

Then there's the other extreme. Or Christians that can't do anything without the Holy Spirit leading them.

Oddly enough I became close to both extremes at the Church of Christ I attended for about a yr and a half. The sister that introduced me grew up in the Church of Christ. All her family on both sides are lifetime members of the C of C.

She's the odd ball. She's the black sheep, if you will, and has been all her life. She seeks to live by the Holy Spirit, and has been doing it -- giving all her efforts to it -- for over 30 yrs. When I met her she and her family had already been kicked out of one C of C. She was way too spooky with the Holy Spirit for their liking. Her mother-in-law calls her a witch; that's how the C. of C. see people who follow the HS.

And she does get way out there. God comes to her at 3:00am, and they talk. God speaks to her sometimes audibly. And sometimes she sees visions, like a panoramic movie in the sky, while driving down the open highway.

I'm the only one she tells about all this. She says I don't look at her like she's crazy. She's learned better than to share it with those at her church.

Long short of it, following the Holy Spirit has made a real mess of her life, and for those of her family. And all the negative payoffs that come as a result, she spins spiritually, dismissing the negative in some way, like, God is doing it for reasons unknown, like glorifying Himself and not her. From the outside it looks to be a vicious circle; a sort of spiritual/mental entrapment.

Here's an example: She calls me. The HS seems to be speaking to her, but she can't decipher what it's saying. She runs it past me. I'll tell her I'm unable to know what God is doing or saying. She runs it all thru her brain and decides she needs further confirmation from the HS. Then she intently looks for anything that might speak to it. Sometimes she gets it, and sometimes not. If not she'll call me and tell that now she thinks that what she at first thought was coming from the HS was actually coming from the devil. Round and round she goes. Following the HS is not easy. And from what I'e seen of this sisters life, based upon that, it would be very wise to stay away from the HS.

I could share way more on this ... but for now will keep it short.

I'll just repeat the two extremes. 1) The Holy Spirit stopped moving at Pentecost, and is now the Bible, and, 2) The Holy Spirit guides us in all we do.

Maybe I'm missing the excluded middle. Anybody?

[zeek]

Originally Posted by awareness

She's the odd ball. She's the black sheep, if you will, and has been all her life. She seeks to live by the Holy Spirit, and has been doing it -- giving all her efforts to it -- for over 30 yrs. When I met her she and her family had
Long short of it, following the Holy Spirit has made a real mess of her life, and for those of her family.

Really? How high did she register on the HOLY-SPIRIT-O-METER?

I'll just repeat the two extremes. 1) The Holy Spirit stopped moving at Pentecost, and is now the Bible, and, 2) The Holy Spirit guides us in all we do. Maybe I'm missing the excluded middle. Anybody?

No to 1) and 2). Yes you are excluding a middle, an infinite one.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Dave

The environmental apocalypse is man made. I'm not blaming God for that.

Rev 11:18 says God will destroy those who destroy the earth.

To me that's like saying that God will kill those who play Russian roulette. It is they who kill themselves; God simply ceases to protect them from their own foolishness. We made our bed, now we live in it; or expire in it, as the case may be.

And don't blame God with your "let them have dominion over the earth" nonsense. Dominion doesn't mean bulldozing it and paving it. That is like a man who brutally beats his children thinking he is in control of his family. The only thing he demonstrates is his own lack of control.

Dominion starts with self-control. The reason Jesus was so powerful is that He started with self-control. "But I have calmed and quieted my soul, like a weaned child with its mother; like a weaned child is my soul within me." Jesus could calm the waters because His own waters were calm. It all starts within, not with a bulldozer or jet airplane. Dominion starts within.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by aron

Rev 11:18 says God will destroy those who destroy the earth.

To me that's like saying that God will kill those who play Russian roulette. It is they who kill themselves; God simply ceases to protect them from their own foolishness. We made our bed, now we live in it; or expire in it, as the case may be.

And don't blame God with your "let them have dominion over the earth" nonsense. Dominion doesn't mean bulldozing it and paving it. That is like a man who brutally beats his children thinking he is in control of his family. The only thing he demonstrates is his own lack of control.

Dominion starts with self-control. The reason Jesus was so powerful is that He started with self-control. "But I have calmed and quieted my soul, like a weaned child with its mother; like a weaned child is my soul within me." Jesus could calm the waters because His own waters were calm. It all starts within, not with a bulldozer or jet airplane. Dominion starts within.

That's an awesome verse. My wife will love it. However, everybody in the US is doomed for destroying the earth with our feed lots which cause pollution etc. If you're a vegan you might be okay as long as you are growing your own garden. However, I am a little confused. I said that the environmental apocalypse was man-made and I didn't blame God for it...so I don't understand some of your dominion statements. Maybe I'm just not getting it.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by zeek

Either way it is translated, the result hinges on whether or not Jesus was "like us." If he was like us then if the Kingdom was in him, then it is in us too.

Okay, I get your point...he was just pointing out that we all have the Kingdom of God in us so whether it is translated "among us" or "within us" doesn't matter.

Originally Posted by zeek

I imagine God feels relieved.

That's what she told me.

[aron]

Originally Posted by Dave

I am a little confused. I said that the environmental apocalypse was man-made and I didn't blame God for it...so I don't understand some of your dominion statements. Maybe I'm just not getting it.

I wasn't addressing you in particular. I meant it toward those who use scripture to blame God. When God said for humanity to bear His image and have dominion over the earth, that didn't mean what we euphemistically call "development"; I.e. shopping malls, housing developments, and striped pavement.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by aron

I wasn't addressing you in particular. I meant it toward those who use scripture to blame God. When God said for humanity to bear His image and have dominion over the earth, that didn't mean what we euphemistically call "development"; I.e. shopping malls, housing developments, and striped pavement.

Thanks for the clarification! I agree with your statement.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Dave

That's what she told me.

Very distasteful.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by Dave

That's what she told me.

Oh com'on. God is made like a Ken doll, down there. Thanks fer the laugh ...

[awareness]

Originally Posted by aron

I wasn't addressing you in particular. I meant it toward those who use scripture to blame God. When God said for humanity to bear His image and have dominion over the earth, that didn't mean what we euphemistically call "development"; I.e. shopping malls, housing developments, and striped pavement.

And God is not extincting the elephants. We are. To feed our lust for ivory. A booming business funding the terrorists.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by awareness

And God is not extincting the elephants. We are. To feed our lust for ivory. A booming business funding the terrorists.

I have no lust whatsoever for ivory, so don't include me in your "our."

[Dave]

Originally Posted by awareness

Concerning The Spirit of Life. Some Christians today believe the Holy Spirit stopped moving at Pentecost. I've had more than one Church of Christ Christian tell me that. I even had one that, because of Ephesians 6:17 said, the Word, or Bible, is the Spirit today.

So from their perspective, the Spirit of Life is not actively involved in Christians today. Everything is contained in the Word. Is that what you are saying? Interesting concept and seems to be backed up by Eph. 6:17 but where does that take us?