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Old 07-03-2019, 11:17 AM   #1
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Default Quote from today's Witness/Watchman Wednesday

I just had to stop and comment on the "Witness Wednesday" quote currently on the front page.....

"To know God is not adequate. To know Christ is also not adequate. Even to know the church is not adequate. We must go on to know the churches which are local. If we are up-to-date in following the Lord, we will realize that today is the day of the local churches."
The Seven Spirits for the Local Churches Living Stream Ministry, 1989


I just.......I mean......am I the only one who reads this and thinks....."ffffffwwwwhhhaaatttt??"

KNOWING GOD OR KNOWING CHRIST IS NOT ADEQUATE??? You mean Lee's local churches are a higher sphere than God?!?!

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Old 07-03-2019, 11:46 AM   #2
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

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I just had to stop and comment on the "Witness Wednesday" quote currently on the front page.....

"To know God is not adequate. To know Christ is also not adequate. Even to know the church is not adequate. We must go on to know the churches which are local. If we are up-to-date in following the Lord, we will realize that today is the day of the local churches."
Trapped, that fellowship is outdated.

The local churches soon became "merely a procedure."

Then to know the local churches was also not adequate.

One must know the body of Christ!

Later, that too became inadequate and one must now know the unique new testament ministry.

Then you are up-to-date!

Get the picture?
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Old 07-03-2019, 11:57 AM   #3
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Witness Lee
"To know God is not adequate. To know Christ is also not adequate."

The Lord Jesus Christ
And this is eternal life, that they know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
John 17:3

I don't know about y'all, but I think I'm going to go with the words of the Lord Jesus Christ and maybe just ignore Witness Lee.
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Old 07-03-2019, 12:29 PM   #4
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

"Today is the day of the local churches"

Similar to Pol Pot saying, "It is the year zero." If you rise from the dead and walk on water, you can say stuff like that.

Otherwise, you have just exposed yourself. A tin-horn satrap.
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Old 07-03-2019, 01:27 PM   #5
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Yeah,I also felt stumbled when I saw this quote. I demand explanation for this quote. If not, can you remove it? We need to remove leavened teaching from His unleavened Body.
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Old 07-03-2019, 01:33 PM   #6
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

What's the meaning of local churches? It's a true fellowship of true believers into Christ in a certain locality.

But we shouldn't say this is the day of local churches because, by doing this we're forsaking universality of church. So,what's universal church? It means all true believers in Roman catholic church, all true believers in all denominational churches, free groups, independent Christians and including true believers among Lord's recovery movement. This is universal aspect of church not only church under LSM.
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Old 07-03-2019, 02:41 PM   #7
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

I read a quote from when LSM went into PRC in '79. "The age of the Word is over - it is now the age of the Spirit." And how much nuttiness followed that?
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Old 07-03-2019, 07:19 PM   #8
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Witness Lee
"Even to know the church is not adequate. We must go on to know the churches which are local."

This part might be even more disturbing and damaging then the first about knowing God not being adequate. We all know that when Witness Lee said "the churches which are local" he really and truly meant THE CHURCHES WHICH ARE LOCAL THAT ARE UNDER HIS MINISTRY AND FULL CONTROL. And now it has become very clear that this was the case going back to the early days in Taiwan and SE Asia. Our dear Brother Lee was hiring and firing elders and co-workers and intervening in the government and function of local churches at his personal whim going all the way back to at least the 1950s.

The churches under Witness Lee's ministry have never really been local at all. While Lee was alive, they were not "answering each to the Lord". No sir. If they were to be considered a "local church in the Lord's Recovery" they answered only and always to the person and work of Witness Lee. Today, these "ministry churches" still answer to the person and work of Lee, but it is through the interpretive lenses of the Blended Brothers in Anaheim. Same company - different boss.
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Old 07-17-2019, 09:02 AM   #9
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Today's Witness Wednesday is doing me in too:

Do not simply know God according to what He does, but know Him according to what He is. Whether or not God does something for us means nothing.

Again I say....whaaaaaaattt??

Okay, I do understand in the sense of, for example, if you pray for God to do something and He doesn't, He is still worthy to be praised. But Lee speaks in such absolutes it makes it hard to ever take anything he says seriously. By his statement I could say that whether or not God sends His Son to die for our sins......means nothing!
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Old 07-17-2019, 09:16 AM   #10
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

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Today's Witness Wednesday is doing me in too:

Do not simply know God according to what He does, but know Him according to what He is. Whether or not God does something for us means nothing.

Again I say....whaaaaaaattt??

Okay, I do understand in the sense of, for example, if you pray for God to do something and He doesn't, He is still worthy to be praised. But Lee speaks in such absolutes it makes it hard to ever take anything he says seriously. By his statement I could say that whether or not God sends His Son to die for our sins......means nothing!
I had a problem with that quote, too. How can something God does mean nothing?
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Old 07-17-2019, 09:21 AM   #11
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Okay, I do understand in the sense of, for example, if you pray for God to do something and He doesn't, He is still worthy to be praised. But Lee speaks in such absolutes it makes it hard to ever take anything he says seriously. By his statement I could say that whether or not God sends His Son to die for our sins......means nothing!
This is why his Blended minions also think in such absolutes. They used to attack the GLA for playing electric guitars simply because W.Lee deemed the piano and the acoustic guitar alone to be "holy" for meetings.

John Darby demanded all of his assemblies to sing a cappella, while condemning the use of a piano as a "wooden brother."

Absolutism produces exclusivism, which produces Laodicea, the land without love.
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Old 07-17-2019, 09:33 AM   #12
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Lee was actually a terrible communicator.

Look at all the debate between LSM and GLA about "what he really meant." Endless parsing.

You shouldn't have to decipher the teachings of a contemporary minister, let alone someone who claims to be MOTA. There are plenty of clear Christians teachers. Why even bother with him?
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Old 07-17-2019, 11:12 AM   #13
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

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Lee was actually a terrible communicator.

Look at all the debate between LSM and GLA about "what he really meant." Endless parsing.

You shouldn't have to decipher the teachings of a contemporary minister, let alone someone who claims to be MOTA. There are plenty of clear Christians teachers. Why even bother with him?

No kidding!!
I hated listening to his tapes and listening to him at meetings, conferences, trainings.

However at the time I appreciated the life studies because 1) they were easy to read/understand, 2) we at least were studying the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. His focus and thread were 'Christ and the church'... translation: the LC, Lord's recovery, LSM....

Thank GOD I from the get go was so grateful I truly got saved from hell, from the life I was living, experienced the Power of the Cleansing Blood, and the washing of the Word of God in my being. I appreciated the fellowship of my local church community (San Diego and the blessed elders I was under).


Above all, I never forgot and still haven't that JESUS CHRIST through His Life giving Spirit saved me and delivered me. My focus was/is HIM..

He makes it so much easier for me/us to discern the true teachers/preachers He raises up who point us to HIS WORD, To Christ.

But Lee and his minions IMHO did very little to point the saints to Christ... to trust HIM, to follow HIM, to get to intimately know HIM.

Lee like many church pastors did / do not want to lose their 'flock'. So they control them by twisting God's Word. Lee was a master of manipulation!
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Old 07-17-2019, 08:08 PM   #14
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

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What's the meaning of local churches? It's a true fellowship of true believers into Christ in a certain locality.

But we shouldn't say this is the day of local churches because, by doing this we're forsaking universality of church. So,what's universal church? It means all true believers in Roman catholic church, all true believers in all denominational churches, free groups, independent Christians and including true believers among Lord's recovery movement. This is universal aspect of church not only church under LSM.
And all believers throughout history too.
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Old 07-18-2019, 08:32 AM   #15
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What's the meaning of local churches? It's a true fellowship of true believers into Christ in a certain locality.

But we shouldn't say this is the day of local churches because, by doing this we're forsaking universality of church. So,what's universal church? It means all true believers in Roman catholic church, all true believers in all denominational churches, free groups, independent Christians and including true believers among Lord's recovery movement. This is universal aspect of church not only church under LSM.
Let's not forget all the millions of brothers and sisters who came before us, many who suffered the loss of health, life, reputation, family, and possessions. They are in the universal church, and as it says in Hebrews, somehow they are a great cloud of witnesses.
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Old 07-22-2019, 08:31 AM   #16
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Ron Kangas quote:
"I'm so thankful I have my companion, my wife, to travel with me wherever I go, but I'm the co-worker. I'm the one ministering. She is nothing. She is no one. She is my wife. I will never crown her, I will never exalt her, that's to damage her."

"Ugh!" is all I can say.

I hope she gave him an earful about that. How crass can you get?

Suffice to say Kangas didn't write the Song of Songs.
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Old 07-22-2019, 09:11 AM   #17
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Ron Kangas quote:
"I'm so thankful I have my companion, my wife, to travel with me wherever I go, but I'm the co-worker. I'm the one ministering. She is nothing. She is no one. She is my wife. I will never crown her, I will never exalt her, that's to damage her."

Ron Kangas made only one crown.
One crown, he puts on his own head.
He is someone. He exalts himself the 'delegated authority'.

She is no one. He said.
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Old 07-22-2019, 10:18 AM   #18
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Ron, Ron, Ron.

I have never heard any sister say she wants to be crowned or be exalted in any way. (I wish I could say the same thing about you Blended Brothers) I do believe that sisters would like to not be treated as a second class citizen, relegated to only cooking, cleaning and babysitting. They also don't want to be considered as "nothing" and "no one". I never heard Witness Lee say such a thing. I have never heard or read where Watchman Nee uttered such nonsense. And we all know that you certainly did not get this notion from the Bible.

Ron, I don't think you would have made such a crude, sexist and absurd statement when your first wife Susan was alive. She would have had your head and you know it. So now that you have a "submissive" Chinese/Asian wife (probably a life-long Local Churcher) you think you can spew out this garbage in public? Shame on you. You are being rebuked by the Lord and his Word. You are also being rebuked by the rest of the Body that is not under your thumb.
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Old 07-22-2019, 11:35 AM   #19
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Ron, Ron, Ron.

I have never heard any sister say she wants to be crowned or be exalted in any way. (I wish I could say the same thing about you Blended Brothers) I do believe that sisters would like to not be treated as a second class citizen, relegated to only cooking, cleaning and babysitting. They also don't want to be considered as "nothing" and "no one". I never heard Witness Lee say such a thing. I have never heard or read where Watchman Nee uttered such nonsense. And we all know that you certainly did not get this notion from the Bible.

-
Nee did do the extreme opposite and rather than Christ, he gave women spiritual authority over him during his formative years. Because of those influences, he mingled false spirituality into Christian doctrine and it became what it is today, the Lord's Recovery.

BTW, who exactly is this Kangas character? Is he a Blended brother?

It's an appalling thing to say of your wife "she is nothing". You may not have to exalt her but that doesn't mean you need to put her under your feet either. It seems Mr. Kangas confuses women for the serpent and is crushing the wrong creature.

With that said, feminism isn't the solution to misogyny yet it seems that those are the only two options society presents us.

So who's right in their view of women? Kangas or Nee?

This seems to be the order of the day in politics. Create a false dilemma and make people choose. Liberal or conservative, LSM or GLA, misogyny or feminism ect.

By allowing only two options, whether intentional or not, choosing or focusing your energy on one only helps give validity to the other.
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Old 07-22-2019, 12:05 PM   #20
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BTW, who exactly is this Kangas character? Is he a Blended brother?
Ron Kangas:

The most Blended af the Blendeds

Princeton Theological School Graduate

Long time chief editor for Lee's books after a "storm" knocked out other editors like John Ingalls.

Presently Chief Theologian of The Recovery.

One of their primary conference speakers.
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Old 07-22-2019, 12:37 PM   #21
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So who's right in their view of women? Kangas or Nee?
Are they the only choice we have?
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Old 07-22-2019, 12:38 PM   #22
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Ron Kangas:

The most Blended af the Blendeds

Princeton Theological School Graduate

Long time chief editor for Lee's books after a "storm" knocked out other editors like John Ingalls.

Presently Chief Theologian of The Recovery.

One of their primary conference speakers.
Excruciating bore.
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Old 07-22-2019, 03:19 PM   #23
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Excruciating bore.
After Lee passed, Ron Kangas emerged on the scene, and visited a number of places to minister.

TC approached him, and attempted to complement him on his gift of teaching.

Ron shooed him away, like one would brush off a mosquito. Or a leper.
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Old 07-22-2019, 03:27 PM   #24
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After Lee passed, Ron Kangas emerged on the scene, and visited a number of places to minister.

TC approached him, and attempted to complement him on his gift of teaching.

Ron shooed him away, like one would brush off a mosquito. Or a leper.

Ohio, why do you think Ron did that? And why do you think Titus felt it necessary to compliment Kangas? I think your statement implies something but you're not being clear on what that is.

If you view that circumstance through the lense of Titus being a meek and humble servant of God innocently complimenting his fellow brother then yeah it's terrible manners BUT if viewed through the lense of politics and power plays then accepting a compliment from a political rival is viewed as weakness and detrimental to one's judgment. In that case Titus was being deceptive and Ron was just being a shrewd politician.

Do you know what Chu's and Kangas's relationship was like prior to Lee's passing?
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Old 07-22-2019, 04:08 PM   #25
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Are they the only choice we have?
Igzy, it was a rhetorical question... The third option is; neither of them were right.
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Old 07-22-2019, 07:43 PM   #26
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If you view that circumstance through the lense of Titus being a meek and humble servant of God innocently complimenting his fellow brother than yeah it's terrible manners BUT if viewed through the lense of politics and power plays then accepting a compliment from a political rival is viewed as weakness and detrimental to one's judgment. In that case Titus was being deceptive and Ron was just being a shrewd politician.
Or Chu was just being clueless (because Kangas has no teaching gift) and Kangas was just being an ass (because that comes naturally for him).

Anything more complicated than that, including your theory, is even worse.

(Whatever happened to just receiving a compliment graciously?)
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Old 07-22-2019, 08:24 PM   #27
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Ohio, why do you think Ron did that? And why do you think Titus felt it necessary to compliment Kangas? I think your statement implies something but you're not being clear on what that is.

If you view that circumstance through the lense of Titus being a meek and humble servant of God innocently complimenting his fellow brother then yeah it's terrible manners BUT if viewed through the lense of politics and power plays then accepting a compliment from a political rival is viewed as weakness and detrimental to one's judgment. In that case Titus was being deceptive and Ron was just being a shrewd politician.

Do you know what Chu's and Kangas's relationship was like prior to Lee's passing?
Because Ron doesn't know how to say "Thanks."
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Old 07-22-2019, 08:51 PM   #28
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Because Ron doesn't know how to say "Thanks."
Lots have change with Ron. He has a new wife, and a cold heart. He's not the warm hearted brother I once knew. And I suppose the LC delusion, and prolly a power trip, is what changed him for the worse.
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Old 07-23-2019, 04:52 AM   #29
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Lots have change with Ron. He has a new wife, and a cold heart. He's not the warm hearted brother I once knew. And I suppose the LC delusion, and prolly a power trip, is what changed him for the worse.
It's amazing how much pride can hide behind high peak doctrines.
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Old 07-23-2019, 09:43 AM   #30
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Lots have change with Ron. He has a new wife, and a cold heart. He's not the warm hearted brother I once knew. And I suppose the LC delusion, and prolly a power trip, is what changed him for the worse.
Harold, then remember that warm hearted brother you once knew in prayer.
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Old 07-24-2019, 01:15 PM   #31
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Seems the home page quotes have been of the outlandish variety lately.

This week, Watchman Nee:
"Whenever man touches God's delegated authority he touches God within that person; sinning against delegated authority is sinning against God."

Yawn. Well, all true "sins" are against God, so this statement is really saying nothing of any substance. It's simply a threat.

It's more LR intimidation. More threats. More fear. More balderdash.

Last edited by Cal; 07-24-2019 at 03:26 PM.
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Old 07-24-2019, 02:18 PM   #32
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Seems the home page quotes have been of the outlandish variety lately.

This week, Watchman Nee:
"Whenever man touches God's delegated authority he touches God within that person; sinning against delegated authority is sinning against God."

Yawn. Well, all true "sins" are against God, so this statement is really saying nothing of any substance. It's simply a threat.

It's more LR intimidation. Mote threats. More fear. More balderdash.
Who is God's delegated authority today?

Lee claimed to be, but he's gone. So who now?
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Old 07-24-2019, 02:52 PM   #33
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Who is God's delegated authority today?

Lee claimed to be, but he's gone. So who now?
LSM. Could be a BB, could be the publication work, could be an LSM sanctioned locality. Could be DCP, an arm of LSM. Could be BFA, or LME, or KGB or GRU. (Wait what?) If you are perceived as attacking anything associated with LSM, you are opposing God's delegated authority.
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Old 07-24-2019, 03:42 PM   #34
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Who is God's delegated authority today?

Lee claimed to be, but he's gone. So who now?
Ask an LSM member, it's the Blendeds

Ask a GLA member, it's Titus Chu

Ask someone else, it's Luther, or Calvin, or Pope Francis, or Joseph Smith, ect...

Then ask the independent free loving mystic they'll say it's up to them and their inner guidance or feelings.

And then there's the truth.

Scripture does say that Satan is the authorized god of this age. So when Local Church leaders caution in coming against their authority, their warning is valid. If you're not covered by Christ, you will get burned.

With that said if you truly are in Christ Jesus, then he's your master.
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Old 07-24-2019, 06:46 PM   #35
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Ask an LSM member, it's the Blendeds

Ask a GLA member, it's Titus Chu

Ask someone else, it's Luther, or Calvin, or Pope Francis, or Joseph Smith, ect...

Then ask the independent free loving mystic they'll say it's up to them and their inner guidance or feelings.

And then there's the truth.

Scripture does say that Satan is the authorized god of this age. So when Local Church leaders caution in coming against their authority, their warning is valid. If you're not covered by Christ, you will get burned.

With that said if you truly are in Christ Jesus, then he's your master.
Good point about all the delegated authorities. Guess it's a need of the flesh to have them "in the flesh."
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Old 07-24-2019, 07:18 PM   #36
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Good point about all the delegated authorities. Guess it's a need of the flesh to have them "in the flesh."
Then thank God Christ came in the flesh so we were able to relate.
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Old 07-31-2019, 10:36 AM   #37
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

This latest quote is so disingenuous --
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In the Lord's recovery there is no such practice of a "centralization of the churches" and a "centralization of the work." We do emphasize that all the churches should be one in the Body of Christ, not by the way of forming a federation but in the way of adequate fellowship in the Spirit in the organic union of the divine life.
My, My, how does one even begin to unpack this?

For example, I departed just prior to the actual GLA quarantines. Titus Chu was expelled for not submitting to the Blendeds in Anaheim. They basically told us that.

That, my friends, is the very DEFINITION of "Centralization of the Work."

The level of blindness and deception at LSM is truly incredible.
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Old 07-31-2019, 02:48 PM   #38
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In the Lord's recovery there is no such practice of a "centralization of the churches" and a "centralization of the work." We do emphasize that all the churches should be one in the Body of Christ, not by the way of forming a federation but in the way of adequate fellowship in the Spirit in the organic union of the
divine life.



Yes, just label your "federation" an "organic union" and you can justify anything!

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Old 08-01-2019, 11:56 AM   #39
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Harold, then remember that warm hearted brother you once knew in prayer.
Best response on here, IMHO.
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Old 09-18-2019, 06:48 AM   #40
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"Because the Father, the Son, and the Spirit are all one with the Body of Christ, we may say that the Triune God is now the "four-in-one" God. These four are the Father, the Son, the Spirit, and the Body. The Three of the Divine Trinity cannot be confused or separated, and the four-in-one also cannot be separated or confused." Witness Lee A Deeper Study of the Divine Dispensing
This strikes me as Lee daring someone to call him heretical. And no one should be blamed for doing so.
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Old 09-18-2019, 08:05 AM   #41
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This strikes me as Lee daring someone to call him heretical. And no one should be blamed for doing so.
I wonder if we shouldn't use any of these phrases to describe God: Truine, Trinity, 3-in-1, etc. They are all extra-biblical and not found specifically stated in scripture.
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Old 09-18-2019, 09:58 AM   #42
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Well, strictly speaking, EVERYTHING outside of the canon of Scripture is extra-biblical. When the 27 books of the New Testament were "accepted", the canon was closed. Every word ever written or spoken since that time could be considered as "extra-biblical". Since the end of the 1st century there has been a set of normative interpretations, expressed in writings, creeds and statements of faith, and is commonly known as orthodoxy.

Someone's teachings could be considered as biblically orthodox. Yet they are extra-biblical by definition. Someone's teachings could be considered as unorthodox, yet not necessarily heretical, per se. Yet another persons teachings could be considered as biblically unorthodox, yet not rank heresy. Finally, there is rank heresy.

Witness Lee, over the years, pretty much covered the gambit, from totally orthodox, all the way through to rank heresy. To say that "the Triune God is now the 'four-in-one' God" is rank heresy...no matter what the context, or any attached conditions, provisos or qualifications. And just because the same person also taught the orthodox version of the same teaching, this does not in any way mitigate the heresy. To my knowledge, no Local Church prominent leader or co-worker has repudiated this absurd teaching. (and I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for any such miracle)

So the bottom line is: There are extra-biblical teachings, doctrines and statements that are to be considered as orthodox. There are also extra-biblical teachings, doctrines and statements that are to be considered as heretical. We don't burn heretics at the stake anymore (thankfully)..but we should put a torch to their false, heretical and harmful teachings.

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Old 09-18-2019, 10:14 AM   #43
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Witness Lee, over the years, pretty much covered the gambit, from totally orthodox, all the way through to rank heresy. To say that "the Triune God is now the 'four-in-one' God" is rank heresy...no matter what the context, or any attached conditions, provisos or qualifications. And just because the same person also taught the orthodox version of the same teaching in no way mitigates the heresy. To my knowledge, no Local Church prominent leader or co-worker has repudiated this absurd teaching. (and I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for any such miracle)
-
I could never forget the story told by Don Rutledge during the heyday of the New Way. Some young ministry groupie came back to the USA announcing how he alone has access to the MOTA and now we know that, "1st is the Father, 2nd is the Son, 3rd is the Spirit, and 4th is Witness Lee."

Someone then squeaked out, "And who is No. 5?' ... Crickets ...
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Old 09-18-2019, 10:32 AM   #44
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Crickets are number 5!? I had no idea!
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Old 09-18-2019, 10:49 AM   #45
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No, I'm #5. THEN you hear the crickets.
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Old 09-18-2019, 12:30 PM   #46
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No, I'm #5. THEN you hear the crickets.
No, no, no ... don't you guys understand anything?

It was Philip Lee. It all makes so much sense. But no body would admit it ... except for the crickets. Get it?
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Old 09-18-2019, 05:34 PM   #47
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No, no, no ... don't you guys understand anything?
Like Jesus' disciples, just us sheeple here! (God compares us to sheep for a good reason . . .)



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Old 09-18-2019, 06:48 PM   #48
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Like Jesus' disciples, just us sheeple here! (God compares us to sheep for a good reason . . .)
"God compares us to sheep for a good reason . . . "

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Old 09-20-2019, 03:05 PM   #49
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Witness Lee, over the years, pretty much covered the gambit, from totally orthodox, all the way through to rank heresy. To say that "the Triune God is now the 'four-in-one' God" is rank heresy...no matter what the context, or any attached conditions, provisos or qualifications. And just because the same person also taught the orthodox version of the same teaching, this does not in any way mitigate the heresy. To my knowledge, no Local Church prominent leader or co-worker has repudiated this absurd teaching. (and I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for any such miracle)

So the bottom line is: There are extra-biblical teachings, doctrines and statements that are to be considered as orthodox. There are also extra-biblical teachings, doctrines and statements that are to be considered as heretical. We don't burn heretics at the stake anymore (thankfully)..but we should put a torch to their false, heretical and harmful teachings.
-
Okay, so back on topic . . .

Yes, 4-in-1 is a bit much. But it is very hard to describe the union that we've been brought into by the good pleasure of our Father, is it not? Lee may have gone overboard (I agree with that) and pushed the envelope. But, as you point out, He could also be mainstream. And through His ministry, I must say, I came to see that there was more to the organic union that God has brought us into, than what a lot of mainstream Christianity routinely acknowledges.

(So go ahead now and let 'er rip!)
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Old 12-18-2019, 04:35 PM   #50
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness Wednesday

Okay, okay, so today's not Witness Wednesday, it's Watchman Wednesday.

But what on earth does Watchman's quote mean?

I read it and it comes across something like "arghblhararhglhbahralrhghahlble"

(I actually think the quote is circular referencing back to itself as an example of the stifling of productive thought.......)

The quote is:

"If any person desires to think, he must possess memory, imagination and reasoning power; but the Christian has presently lost these powers, hence is unable to think. He cannot create, deduce or recollect, nor can he compare, judge and apprehend. Therefore he cannot think. And should he attempt to do so he experiences a kind of dazed sensation which stifles any productive thought."
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Old 12-18-2019, 07:49 PM   #51
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Watchman Nee, might had a dazed sensation ad prophesied concerning his Lee-Blended 'spiritual decendants'.

This branch of his 'decendants' as Nee predicted -"has presently lost these powers, hence is unable to think. He cannot create, deduce or recollect, nor can he compare, judge and apprehend. Therefore he cannot think. And should he attempt to do so he experiences a kind of dazed sensation which stifles any productive thought."

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Old 12-19-2019, 04:32 AM   #52
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Default Quote from today's Witness/Watchman Wednesday

Trapped,

So you are beginning to see the nature of the ones who would be the Minister of the Age. They get away with jibberish because it sounds so spiritual.

I'm sure someone said or wrote something about this very statement saying how enlightening it was.

And since it was from the Spiritual Man which was essentially his first book, it just shows how spiritually "enlightened" Nee was in his early days. Fast-forwards to Authority and Submission (aka Spiritual Authority) and since everything else fits in between, you have to wonder if there is any reason to take anything he wrote seriously.

But many did, including many who did not follow Lee.

I'm not saying that there are not true statements in any particular writing of Nee or Lee. But with the junk like that little quip mixed in, it looks like the true has been hijacked to serve the false.
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Old 12-19-2019, 08:07 AM   #53
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Default Quote from today's Witness/Watchman Wednesday

I'm curious - what do you-ins think are Nee's and Lee's best books (and I suspect everyone will probably automatically include what they think are their worst . . .)?
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Old 12-19-2019, 10:26 AM   #54
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Firstly, Watchman Nee only wrote one book - The Spiritual Man. (which he wrote in his early-mid 20s)
Witness Lee, to my knowledge, only wrote one book - Watchman Nee—A Seer of the Divine Revelation in the Present Age (a highly self-serving and dubious biographical history of the life and times and ministry of Watchman Nee)

I think it is important to keep in mind that all the other publications are transcribed/edited versions of Nee and Lee's spoken ministry. In the case of Nee, all the publications were taken from the personal notes of members of the Little Flock/Local Churches in China. In the case of Lee, most publications are simply transcribed/edited versions of his spoken ministry - the vast majority which were taken from conferences and the semi-annual trainings. Do to the technology of electronic recording, the LSM publications of Witness Lee are vastly more accurate and faithful to the spoken messages. Yet we also know that many of Lee's most controversial speakings were edited out of the printed publications by Ron Kangas and other editors.

The problem with your question, my dear brother SontoGlory!, is that in most cases the publications contain some very biblical, healthy teachings AND ALSO some very unbiblical, unhealthy teachings. In fact, I think it would be hard to find one of the publications of Nee or Lee that is totally one or the other. And this is what makes them so very dangerous to younger and/or new believers, or those brothers and sisters who have little to no history of being taught biblical, healthy and theologically orthodox teachings.

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Old 12-19-2019, 11:36 AM   #55
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness/Watchman Wednesday

Okay, but I actually didn't ask how they got into print, just which books were the best (and worst).

Many on here may be quite biased against ANY of their publications, so let me start it out by stating one best for each.

NEE - The Normal Christian Life Several I know, including myself, have gotten (and continue to get) liberating help from this book.

LEE - The Speciality, Generality, and Practicality of the Church Life In reading this book with some Ohio LC bros (back in the 80s), I had perhaps the strongest bubbling-up enjoyment of the Lord I've ever had.

Alright, load up your cannons . . .
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Old 12-19-2019, 01:49 PM   #56
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StoG,

It's been too long to try to say what might qualify as the best.

But I would never rate them according the kind of "bubbling-up enjoyment" I got from them because emotions are fickle.

As for The Normal Christian Life, as I no longer have printed versions, I wanted to at least peruse the book briefly before making any (very old) comments and note that they have either left it out of the LSM online collection, or changed its name.

But I will say this for Nee's books. The ones that made it to regular Christian bookstores were mostly of the "inner life" genre. And while there is nothing entirely wrong with that phase/side of Christian thinking, it is too caught up in introspective and "spiritual" things/activities. (I put "scare quotes" around "spiritual" because I am not convinced that it is true spirituality in the Christian sense, though it surely is in the broader sense.) Sometimes it might be accurate to call them "faux spirituality" because they often have the veneer of uber spirituality while being rather thin in practical application. And since there is no such thing as a spiritual/secular divide to a true Christian, anything that has no real application to regular "secular" living is not really very spiritual. Add to it the fact that Nee was also pushing his peculiar/sectarian teachings even in those books and you have more to avoid.

As for the others — like Authority and Submission, and the Normal Christian Church — whatever might be of value in them is only found sandwiched between what should not be taken seriously, therefore of little value as a resource (unless you are studying abnormal Christian teaching).

The short version of my answer would be that (from my perspective) trying to decide which Nee/Lee books are the best is sort of like trying to decide which dangerous, illegal drug you would rather be forced to take. They all provide highs and are highly addictive, but it all comes at a severe cost. Maybe snorting a little coke might be less onerous than the almost instantly addictive effects of heroin or some of the others. But it is still nothing to desire.

Back to the books . . . .

I know this may seem over-the-top. But even if you are sure you can ferret out what is wrong in any of them, would you rather take your chances, or reject them all and find something truly worthwhile elsewhere? Another way to ask that question is, "are you sure that their teachings are safe enough risk remaining captured in their fog of garlic?" I know that the "church life" is appealing, and the people are worthy of serious consideration. But they are equally trapped circling a spiritual drain of sorts. Is it in your best interest to hang on to any of it?

I realize that I am often the most outspoken in this way. Mostly because I am certain that anything you find there that is truly of value can be found elsewhere. And it won't be hiding the same kinds of errors that it will be when it comes from Nee/Lee/the LC.

Not saying nothing else has any problems. But the nature and severity of those problems are on an entirely different plain in the LC.
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Old 12-19-2019, 04:30 PM   #57
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But I would never rate them according the kind of "bubbling-up enjoyment" I got from them because emotions are fickle.
Gosh, and I thought I asked a pretty simple question! (BTW: The "bubbling-up experience" came with a lot of light)
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Old 12-19-2019, 06:13 PM   #58
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness/Watchman Wednesday

BTW, does anyone have an answer to the "where is The Normal Christian Life" in the LSM online books question? I would like to look at that book again — at least a little.
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Old 04-01-2020, 09:09 PM   #59
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current Watchman Wednesday quote:

If any person desires to think, he must possess memory, imagination and reasoning power; but the Christian has presently lost these powers, hence is unable to think.

All I can say is: what?

This is unintelligible gibberish. Anyone have any ideas what he means?
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Old 04-02-2020, 04:40 AM   #60
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This is unintelligible gibberish. Anyone have any ideas what he means?
Easy. Nee was willing to do all the thinking for us, all the thinking we will ever need. Who wouldn't follow such a man, who would do all of our thinking for us?

Isn't this basically the LC message we heard from Lee? The steady drumbeat of "Thou shalt have no opinion" translates into "you are unable to think for yourself. Let me do that for you."

Almost sounds like those "re-education camps" China has become famous for.
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Old 04-02-2020, 07:16 AM   #61
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If any person desires to think, he must possess memory, imagination and reasoning power; but the Christian has presently lost these powers, hence is unable to think.
Wow - did he really say that? And what's the source or book?
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Old 04-02-2020, 07:38 AM   #62
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Quote from The Spiritual Man. StG I'm surprised you would question if Watchman Nee ever said such a thing. His writings are filled with these kind of concepts. It's classic Nee. And to be sure, Witness Lee never disavowed anything Nee ever wrote or spoke - in fact he doubled down on much of the mystical/metaphysical nonsense. Where do you think he came up with his unbiblical and dangerous "get out of your mind" garbage?
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Old 04-02-2020, 08:34 AM   #63
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness/Watchman Wednesday

Well I really haven't read a lot of Nee's stuff. Mainly just 3-4 of his most popular books. Always shied away from things like Spiritual Man, as others have always indicated it was somewhat questionable.
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Old 04-22-2020, 09:00 AM   #64
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"There are some who say that He is called the Father, but He is not really the Father."

Notice how Witness Lee does not reference, by name, the "some who say that he is called the father, but He is not really the Father.". The only people who say that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is called the Father (as in God the Father) are documented heretics like the "Oneness Pentecostals" and Jehovah's Witnesses. People who teach such nonsense are properly named as heretics, so why should Witness Lee get away with making the same kind of heretical statement and escape the same label?
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Old 04-22-2020, 09:31 AM   #65
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"There are some who say that He is called the Father, but He is not really the Father."

Notice how Witness Lee does not reference, by name, the "some who say that he is called the father, but He is not really the Father.". The only people who say that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is called the Father (as in God the Father) are documented heretics like the "Oneness Pentecostals" and Jehovah's Witnesses. People who teach such nonsense are properly named as heretics, so why should Witness Lee get away with making the same kind of heretical statement and escape the same label?
-
It seems that in a lot of cases WL knew the implications of what he wanted to say and then he went and said it anyways.
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Old 04-22-2020, 11:49 AM   #66
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"There are some who say that He is called the Father, but He is not really the Father."

Notice how Witness Lee does not reference, by name, the "some who say that he is called the father, but He is not really the Father.". The only people who say that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is called the Father (as in God the Father) are documented heretics like the "Oneness Pentecostals" and Jehovah's Witnesses. People who teach such nonsense are properly named as heretics, so why should Witness Lee get away with making the same kind of heretical statement and escape the same label?
-
So you are crystal clear on the nature of the Triune God? I must say I am not, and have just put all that aside as one of those things He will show me when I'm ready and it's needed. Until then, I just tell myself, "If I could comprehend the nature of God, then He is not God and infinite." Accordingly I do not really know how to process things like the Son shall be called Father and "He that has seen me has seen the Father." (Isaiah 9:6 & John 14:9). Read plenty of things on this over the years, but no clear revelation as of yet.

So perhaps you have seen something more - can you help then?
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Old 04-22-2020, 01:52 PM   #67
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So you are crystal clear on the nature of the Triune God? I must say I am not, and have just put all that aside as one of those things He will show me when I'm ready and it's needed. Until then, I just tell myself, "If I could comprehend the nature of God, then He is not God and infinite." Accordingly I do not really know how to process things like the Son shall be called Father and "He that has seen me has seen the Father." (Isaiah 9:6 & John 14:9). Read plenty of things on this over the years, but no clear revelation as of yet.

So perhaps you have seen something more - can you help then?
Well, I have to say it's one thing to admit we may not be able to be crystal clear on the nature of the TG, but it's another to see all the verses in the New Testament that talk about the Son and the Father in ways that are undeniably distinct one from the other and yet take one verse from the OT to undo all that.

"I am in the Father" - two things can't be in each other if they are each other.

"I am in the bosom of the Father" - pretty hard to be in your own bosom.

"I don't do my will but the will of Him who sent me" - they have different wills!

I could go on and on, but it would just be more of the same.

As for John 14:9.....well.....Jesus is the image of the invisible God. God is invisible, but Jesus is His image. So if you've seen Jesus, the image of God, you've seen God, because Jesus is His image.

As far as Isaiah 9:6 - this is not a question to challenge anyone, but a real question of curiosity. If the child in that verse "will be called...everlasting Father", then where do we see that fulfilled? Is there a record of Jesus being called "The Father" somewhere later on? I'm not aware of it, but it seems like if "the Son is the Father" is true, then this prophesy should be shown to be fulfilled somewhere.
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Old 04-22-2020, 02:40 PM   #68
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All speculation about the Trinity is just that--Speculation. I've speculated myself. To some extent this may help us in our experience. God did not prohibit such speculation.

The problem occurs when you hammer your speculation as a Truth your listeners need to believe. I don't think any teacher should do that. To do so is to say "I know" when you don't.
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Old 04-22-2020, 02:42 PM   #69
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So you are crystal clear on the nature of the Triune God? I must say I am not, and have just put all that aside as one of those things He will show me when I'm ready and it's needed. Until then, I just tell myself, "If I could comprehend the nature of God, then He is not God and infinite." Accordingly I do not really know how to process things like the Son shall be called Father and "He that has seen me has seen the Father." (Isaiah 9:6 & John 14:9). Read plenty of things on this over the years, but no clear revelation as of yet. So perhaps you have seen something more - can you help then?
Firstly, I'm not the one who has claimed to "have seen something more" - That would be Mr. Witness Lee, who boldly proclaimed that "The traditional explanation of the Trinity is grossly inadequate and borders on tritheism". Regrettably, Lee's something more was to come up with a teaching that borders on modalism (and more than one reputable theologian has proclaimed this more than just bordering).

I'm not claiming to be crystal clear on anything. Again, that's the kind of attitude that is displayed by Witness Lee and his followers. Of course the Blended Brothers have taken this haughty attitude to all new heights of foolishness and absurdity. Fortunately, most mature Christians take one look at Lee's teachings on the Trinity and soundly reject them, which probably explains why none of his "books" can be found in Christian bookstores or seminary libraries. It also explains why, despite the grandiose claims of his followers, hardly anyone has ever heard of the man outside of the walls of Local Church meeting halls and conference centers.

While I can understand and appreciate your point about comprehending the nature of God, I think you are selling God a little short in this regard. Has he not given us some "apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds and teachers"? (Eph 4:11) Surely you no longer subscribe to Witness Lee's claim that we can simply disregard 2,000+ years of Christian teachings, doctrines, interpretations and commentaries (aside from a few cherry-picked teachings of those in the line of his supposed "recovery")...do you? The church has been grappling and debating over these matters of the Trinity and the nature of God and Christ almost since the days of Pentecost. This is what many of the doctrinal declarations, statements of faith and creeds are all about. Of course, they are not to be taken with the same authority as the Word of God, but they are simply man-made fences and guidelines that have served the church well. Many times they stand as a protection against the heresies of self-appointed apostles like Witness Lee. And thank God for that.

When I get some time I will be happy to give you my personal understandings and interpretations of Isaiah 9:6 & John 14:9, but in the meantime I think Trapped has given us a very good start (as usual!)
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Old 04-22-2020, 03:34 PM   #70
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Well, I have to say it's one thing to admit we may not be able to be crystal clear on the nature of the TG, but it's another to see all the verses in the New Testament that talk about the Son and the Father in ways that are undeniably distinct one from the other and yet take one verse from the OT to undo all that.

"I am in the Father" - two things can't be in each other if they are each other.

"I am in the bosom of the Father" - pretty hard to be in your own bosom.

"I don't do my will but the will of Him who sent me" - they have different wills!

I could go on and on, but it would just be more of the same.

As for John 14:9.....well.....Jesus is the image of the invisible God. God is invisible, but Jesus is His image. So if you've seen Jesus, the image of God, you've seen God, because Jesus is His image.

As far as Isaiah 9:6 - this is not a question to challenge anyone, but a real question of curiosity. If the child in that verse "will be called...everlasting Father", then where do we see that fulfilled? Is there a record of Jesus being called "The Father" somewhere later on? I'm not aware of it, but it seems like if "the Son is the Father" is true, then this prophesy should be shown to be fulfilled somewhere.
I appreciate the critical thought here, Trapped. Many members of the Lord's Recovery have lost that ability beyond the parameters set by Local Church doctrine. That goes for those in Catholic and many protestant circles (such as in Calvinism) as well, especially when it comes to Christology. When you're taught year after year that your soul is totally depraved and outside the group exists no truth only total darkness it's easy to lack the self esteem to allow yourself the permission to think and question.

As for Christology, on the one hand you have those that strictly hold to the trinitarian tradition decreed in the early Roman ecumenical counsels of the 4th century and then you have those that fall into other heretical teachings such as modalism, as you find in the LC's, and also arianism like that of the Mormons and JW's.

I personally take the safe route and stick to the plain and explicit words of scripture. If scripture says we have one God, the Father, I believe it. If scripture says Christ is God's only begotten son, I believe that as well. That's my Christology. I try my best not to read into the text.

Going by this discipline and shedding all preconceived notions and biases pressed on me by whatever majority I was surrounded by, verses like John 14:9 and Isaiah 9:6 became clear and rather simple to understand.

In John, "horao" is the Greek term for "seen". People often presume this verses use of the term is for the the type of sight that comes by our physical senses but this word can also mean to perceive or see with the mind. It's clear to me Christ's usage of the term was that of the latter, meaning to perceive, because he would not break scripture and scripture specifically says that "no one has seen God" (as in physically seen). So the only way to see (or horao) the Father is through perception. And the only way to perceive an invisible God is by revelation. Like you said, Christ is the image of God. Since Christ was not separated from God by sin, thereby in close relationship with Him, he was able to embody the truth or nature of God. Why does Thomas say "my Lord and my God" at the feet of Jesus? It's not that he was necessarily declaring Jesus to be Almighty God, he happened to get the revelation right there and then not only of the reality of God the Father but also of Jesus as His actual son. He doubted until that point. It's these verses you'll see twisted in trinitarianism and modalism to suite their dogma.

As for Isaiah 9:6, the keyword to recognize is; “and his name shall be called”

Names in the Hebrew culture were symbolic and believed to be prophetic. Jesus, in John 1:42, ‘called’ Simon by a new name (Cephas/Peter which means “rock”) to signify his future ministry as representative of being the “rock” or foundation of his gospel spreading to the entire world.

Just as Simon was to represent the rock of Christ's church, in the same way the Messiah’s names given in Isaiah 9:6 and in Matthew 1:23 were meant to signify whom Jesus would represent in this ministry on earth (Hebrews 1:3). Isaiah is not to be interpreted as who Jesus will be but what he will represent.

The fact is if you're tied down to a specific tradition, you simply won't be allowed to reach these conclusions. It's why I encourage the individual relationship with God first and then the corporate. This is so you can allow yourself to think critically outside of the confines of any given group and to also have the confidence to approach God directly for an answer or revelation of scripture rather than having to go through the "priesthood". Local Church members know well enough where following man leads you. Critical thought may help you avoid indoctrination but it should also help bring you to God Himself. Cynicism is absolutely a good thing in the correct context.

"And as for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But just as His TRUE and genuine anointing teaches you about all things, so remain in Him as you have been taught. " 1 Jn 2:27
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Old 04-22-2020, 03:37 PM   #71
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Thanks Trapped, UntoHim & Jo S. I hear you . . . and I know starting down the road of trying to figure out if He's 3-in-1 or 1-in-3 or some variation, is a non-starter for me and I just see no profit in it. He is Who He is, and without revelation we can't . . . oh well, you hopefully get my point. No profit.

And UntoHim, you seemed to agree somewhat with Lee that much of Christianity skirts too much in the realm of tritheism (I tend to agree, for what it's worth), but as you also pointed out, Lee probably went too far toward modalism. Maybe so, but I don't care to spend too much of my very limited mental resources trying to discern how far WL actually went, and whether he stepped over some theological line in that particular regard. (at the Bema I don't believe any of us will be judged for whether we had a distorted view of the mysteries of God's Triune nature)
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Old 04-22-2020, 03:49 PM   #72
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Thanks Trapped, UntoHim & Jo S. I hear you . . . and I know starting down the road of trying to figure out if He's 3-in-1 or 1-in-3 or some variation, is a non-starter for me and I just see no profit in it. He is Who He is, and without revelation we can't . . . oh well, you hopefully get my point. No profit.
I don't see a 3-in-1 or a 1-in-3 God in scripture. I see a 1-in-1 God and also a 1-in-1 Son. The Father is unique as well as the Son. You do find a lot of false dichotomies or even trichotomies within Christendom so I'd encourage people to try and avoid those traps. You're right StG, seek revelation. That comes through a personal relationship with God.
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Old 04-22-2020, 08:42 PM   #73
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Revelations are great. In fact, revelations of God are the life-blood of every believer. Hopefully all our revelations are coming from God, just as the Lord Jesus proclaimed to Peter: "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven". (Matt 16:17)

Unfortunately, the Lord Jesus is no long with us in the flesh. We no longer have the luxury of having him tell us what is and what is not a revelation from God. But we do have the next best thing...the precious Word of God in writing, which has been preserved for us by the blood, sweat and tears of many devout and courageous men and women of God down through the ages.

Revelations are great. Yet they must be compared and contrasted with the Word of God which he has preserved for us in written form. When revelations become detached from the written Word of God, especially when these revelations are disseminated by a so-called apostle or Minister of the Age, there is great potential for much damage to be wreaked upon a large number of God's people. Such is the case in the Local Church of Witness Lee. And such is the case with Witness Lee's teachings on the Triune God.
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Old 04-22-2020, 09:21 PM   #74
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Revelations are great. In fact, revelations of God are the life-blood of every believer. Hopefully all our revelations are coming from God, just as the Lord Jesus proclaimed to Peter: "Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven". (Matt 16:17)

Unfortunately, the Lord Jesus is no long with us in the flesh. We no longer have the luxury of having him tell us what is and what is not a revelation from God. But we do have the next best thing...the precious Word of God in writing, which has been preserved for us by the blood, sweat and tears of many devout and courageous men and women of God down through the ages.

Revelations are great. Yet they must be compared and contrasted with the Word of God which he has preserved for us in written form. When revelations become detached from the written Word of God, especially when these revelations are disseminated by a so-called apostle or Minister of the Age, there is great potential for much damage to be wreaked upon a large number of God's people. Such is the case in the Local Church of Witness Lee. And such is the case with Witness Lee's teachings on the Triune God.
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Very true. Revelation should never contradict the plain words of scripture or extent beyond scripture. However, if we solely rely on scripture then by who's interpretation are we going to go by? Scripture still has to be interpreted. When you get down to it, scripture interpreting scripture is circular reasoning.

God's word, first and foremost, is alive and active. Even though we can read scripture, the truth that is in it still has to be revealed to us on a personal level otherwise all whom have read scripture would be saved, even the atheists.

You need to first have the foundation of revelation in your own life. Even thought you may have been raised to know about God, that doesn't mean you actually know God. He still has to be revealed to you individually through a tested faith and granted repentance.

Sola Scriptura is the mainstream philosophy in Christianity but I personally strive for Sola Scriptura through the revelation of the living word. If I don't understand something in scripture, my first inclination is not run to the commentaries. I store it up and ask God to help me understand. He has been faithful to reveal things to me in scripture in His perfect timing. You just have to be patient. But many desire to be spiritual giants so they try to quickly absorb as much knowledge as they can and in doing so lean on their own or someone else's understanding. Then they go on to create abhorrent Christian groups that are rooted in half truths.
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Old 04-23-2020, 04:07 AM   #75
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I just had to stop and comment on the "Witness Wednesday" quote currently on the front page.....

"To know God is not adequate. To know Christ is also not adequate. Even to know the church is not adequate. We must go on to know the churches which are local. If we are up-to-date in following the Lord, we will realize that today is the day of the local churches."
The Seven Spirits for the Local Churches Living Stream Ministry, 1989


I just.......I mean......am I the only one who reads this and thinks....."ffffffwwwwhhhaaatttt??"

KNOWING GOD OR KNOWING CHRIST IS NOT ADEQUATE??? You mean Lee's local churches are a higher sphere than God?!?!


Can you give me sources pls?
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Old 04-23-2020, 05:44 AM   #76
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The sources for what?
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Old 04-23-2020, 06:45 AM   #77
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Can you give me sources pls?
You have the quote, the author, the publisher, the date, and the book.

What else do you need?
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Old 04-29-2020, 02:40 PM   #78
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His teaching is a system which is based on his theology and terminology, and cannot be understood without first being trained in that terminology.
This statement is a good way to summarize a lot of what is wrong with what was taught by WN/WL. There is something very deliberate about the lingo used that is intended to obstruct people from questioning what was being spoken.
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Old 04-29-2020, 03:08 PM   #79
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This statement is a good way to summarize a lot of what is wrong with what was taught by WN/WL. There is something very deliberate about the lingo used that is intended to obstruct people from questioning what was being spoken.
That's actually one thing that stuck out from the CRI We Were Wrong edition, and drove me up the wall. They often heavily implied that the fault lies with the general public for not taking the time to read through ALL of Lee's ministry to understand the entire breadth of what he meant by a certain word.

Well, those words are, for example, "Christianity", which already has a standard meaning in the English language. In reality the fault lies with Lee who hijacked a positive word and twisted the meaning into something negative, and who then expected everyone else around him to go along with it.

Or a certain concept, like the Son is the Father. CRI criticizes detractors for not thoroughly reading and getting into and parsing ALL of what Lee said about the Son and the Father in order to understand all the "twofoldness of the truth" or how "balanced" he was (read: contradictory).

To me, if someone is so dumb as to make a statement like "the Son is the Father" and not balance it out in that very paragraph or chapter or book so that his shocking and heretical words are not misunderstood, but instead blames everyone else for not somehow digging out all the sporadic parts in his ridiculous numbers of rehashed books where he touches on the topic.....then he's a pretty poor choice for "minister of the age" if you ask me.

I'm so sick of what a clown show so much of the LC is. I feel like vomiting them out of my mouth too.
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Old 04-29-2020, 03:16 PM   #80
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Oh the article linked under today's quote is phenomenal.

It also says, "Instead of being taught biblical things in biblical terms, we are forced to learn a system before we can understand what is being taught about the Bible, and thus, this teaching must be run through the filter of the system of interpretation being employed. A failure to learn the system makes reading Nee’s work confusing and not really understandable to the uninitiated. For example, terms like “soulish” and “soulical” (neither of which are in the Bible or the English Dictionary) are used repeatedly. Soulish essentially represents worldly or non-spiritual attitudes and behavior, while soulical represents spiritual attitudes and behavior. Had Nee simply used the biblical terms themselves rather than inventing other terms, the book would be far more helpful to the average reader, and its errors more obvious."

It's great.

https://www.douglasjacoby.com/watchm...WFRwFGFQOLCIEA
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Old 04-30-2020, 02:43 PM   #81
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"His teaching is a system which is based on his theology and terminology, and cannot be understood without first being trained in that terminology. Thus, instead of just studying the Scriptures, time must be taken to study the philosophy of a man. Many of his teachings are merely assumptions and opinions, and yet are emphatically declared by him to be Scriptural. The essential ingredients of Gnosticism are present in both subtle and blatant forms."
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Originally Posted by Gordon Ferguson
"Further, and this is where Nee’s and Lee’s teachings especially converge with Gnosticism, those who succumbed to Gnosticism believed that they had a special insight to spiritual knowledge, and saw their insight (intuition) as more important that the Bible’s specific teaching. They were very prideful and looked down on those who just simply clung to the specifics of the Bible."
I'm glad to see others have made the connection between the Local Churches and Gnosticism. In the mouth of two or three witnesses... Praise the Lord!
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Old 05-12-2020, 09:25 PM   #82
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Today's quote from Nee:

God’s desires cannot be released without first passing through man, and God’s desires, when expressed through man’s desires, will be opposed by the power of Satan. In order to fulfill God’s desire, we have to pray, and in order to remove Satan’s frustration, we have to pray. We have to exercise the authority of prayer and release what should be released and bind what should be bound.

Does this make sense?

Did God not desire to make the universe and the earth and the animals, etc.....when man was nowhere in sight for God's desires to be "first passed" through?

Did Satan not oppose God BEFORE man was created (Nee makes it sound like Satan will only oppose God's desires when they are expressed through man's desires)?

What am I missing?

I feel like he's uplifting man over God somehow, but I can't put my finger on it.
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Old 05-12-2020, 09:33 PM   #83
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Today's quote from Nee:

God’s desires cannot be released without first passing through man, and God’s desires, when expressed through man’s desires, will be opposed by the power of Satan. In order to fulfill God’s desire, we have to pray, and in order to remove Satan’s frustration, we have to pray. We have to exercise the authority of prayer and release what should be released and bind what should be bound.

Does this make sense?

Did God not desire to make the universe and the earth and the animals, etc.....when man was nowhere in sight for God's desires to be "first passed" through?

Did Satan not oppose God BEFORE man was created (Nee makes it sound like Satan will only oppose God's desires when they are expressed through man's desires)?

What am I missing?

I feel like he's uplifting man over God somehow, but I can't put my finger on it.
Just swap "God" and "Satan"... Nee's teaching how to subvert your conscience.
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Old 05-13-2020, 08:00 AM   #84
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I feel like he's uplifting man over God somehow, but I can't put my finger on it.
The problem with the term "man" is that it's functionally useless without qualification. Psa 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him? 5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour. 6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:" (KJV)

The only "man" that I see without sin, crowned with glory and honour, is Jesus Christ. So to talk about "man" in general, as in humankind, esp vis-à-vis God, one needs be careful.

Or, Rom 3:23 - "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God". But there's One in whom all the glory of God was pleased to dwell, so that "all men have sinned" also needs qualifiers. Properly speaking, all men except one have sinned and fallen short. The Last Adam did not.

I myself tend to generalizations because it makes good copy, as clearly did Nee. But really one shouldn't put too much into it. Once all the qualifiers are laid out it's not so dramatic or compelling as it first seemed.
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Old 05-27-2020, 12:47 PM   #85
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(From today's 'Witness Wednesday')

Witness Lee: In the heavens, where man cannot see, God the Father;

Jesus: Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise. ~John 5:19

Didn't anyone, ever, correct Witness Lee? All those thousands of messages, and nobody once stood up and said, "Um, Mr Lee... it says here that..."?

I mean, did or did not Jesus say that he saw the Father in heaven? So, why does Witness Lee say what he said? And why did nobody challenge him?
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Old 05-27-2020, 06:38 PM   #86
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(From today's 'Witness Wednesday')

Witness Lee: In the heavens, where man cannot see, God the Father;

Jesus: Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of his own accord, but only what he sees the Father doing. For whatever the Father does, that the Son does likewise. ~John 5:19

Didn't anyone, ever, correct Witness Lee? All those thousands of messages, and nobody once stood up and said, "Um, Mr Lee... it says here that..."?

I mean, did or did not Jesus say that he saw the Father in heaven? So, why does Witness Lee say what he said? And why did nobody challenge him?
My remembrance is Lee gave his own answer to this. I believe it was like this: "How can this be (that the Son saw the Father)? I don't know. It's a mystery" he would say with a smile and a chuckle. Therefore we just agreed to his preemptive response on the matter. Again, please don't quote me, but I remember this kind of thing being said a few times. Does anybody else remember that?
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Old 05-28-2020, 03:21 AM   #87
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My remembrance is Lee gave his own answer to this. I believe it was like this: "How can this be (that the Son saw the Father)? I don't know. It's a mystery" he would say with a smile and a chuckle. Therefore we just agreed to his preemptive response on the matter. Again, please don't quote me, but I remember this kind of thing being said a few times. Does anybody else remember that?
Thanks for the observation. It sounds on par with my experiences in the meetings.

"When I see something, it's 'so clear', and when I don't see something, it's 'a mystery' ".

Actually, that's similar to my positions, probably, as with many others, if not most of us. In some regards, WL was no different from any of us, yet the problem is that with him it was all amplified. My ignorance and suppositions aren't being codified at training centres round the world. Thank God!

But even if so, the "mystery" of Jesus Christ on earth seeing his Father in heaven largely wipes out the meaning of the "Witness Wednesday" quote. (Again, I sometimes do the same, making generalisations which, if qualified as they ought, would not have the impact that I want. So I oversimplify, but at great peril).

But it's important that we don't be too harsh in our critiques of WL or the Blendeds, because in so many ways they show us ourselves, vain, grasping, foolish, full of ourselves. May we learn to show mercy to others, that mercy be shown to us. Yet may we expose error, where it comes forth, especially in ourselves!

But let's keep asking questions. How can the Son sit at the Father's right hand, if the Son is the Father?

"Well, it's a mystery"

Okaaay....
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Old 05-28-2020, 05:40 AM   #88
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But let's keep asking questions. How can the Son sit at the Father's right hand, if the Son is the Father?

"Well, it's a mystery"

Okaaay....
Applying our faith to the word of God may not be the same as asking questions. Unfortunately we can get stuck in quicksand if questions remain in logic or the physical realm.

For example, Revelation 22.1 says, "the throne of God and the Lamb." Is the Lamb on the throne or at God's right hand? One throne or two? How big is that throne? I could go on . . .

And yes, it is a mystery. No doubt. We are not instructed to understand, but to believe and obey what we probably cannot understand. I didn't make the rules, God did.
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Old 05-28-2020, 05:58 AM   #89
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And yes, it is a mystery. No doubt. We are not instructed to understand, but to believe and obey what we probably cannot understand. I didn't make the rules, God did.
I started this tangent by objecting to the statement posted: "Man cannot see the Father in heaven". Of course we can find a verse that supports this. But we can also see verses that don't support this at all. I was pointing out the 'inconvenient' verse that doesn't line up with the bald assertion of the Seer of the Divine Revelation (Lee's appellation for Nee, which he no doubt assumed for himself).

Now, as StG notes, the context of that quote may be some equivocation or circumspection by the speaker. We don't see that, just the quote. So I objected to the statement as it stands.

To me, that is the important thing. Not that I am 'right' or 'have the high peak truth' or even try to overturn others. My point in all of this is to say, "I will not be pushed around, I will not be bullied. If I don't see what you see, I won't sit there quietly and 'take it'. No. I have a voice. Right or wrong it is mine."

So I won't take "no man on earth sees the Father in heaven." Jesus' statement clearly belies that. Now, what does that mean? There are still mysteries there. But just to take the bland word as some truth or fact, No. Witness Lee's hold on my mind is over.

"For freedom, Christ has set you free. Stand fast, therefore, and do not be entangled again with the yoke of slavery."

The problem with Lee, following Nee, and shared by many others, is that they do systematic theology based on a few verses, in which they apply their own readings, guided by ignorant self-oriented intentions. (yes I do the same thing but I'm not opening training centres). And then the verses that don't line up with the 'revelation' they say, "Well, it's a mystery" or they try to minimize them or they say "That's Peter's fallen human concepts" (!!!) And I object to that system of enforced ignorance and superstition. And I will continue to object.
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Old 06-03-2020, 09:40 AM   #90
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There is no need to have a new environment or a certain set of conditions to express the life of Christ. We should not cherish false hopes or think that we can live a spiritual life only when our environment is perfect.
This is the type of LC talk that I think does more harm than good. While it's true to say that there will never be a 'perfect' environment, it is a misconception to think that it is never necessary to change one's environment.

As I see it, the danger isn't in wanting something better, it's in not knowing when it's time to get out of a certain situation, whether that be a situation involving abuse or anything else.
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Old 06-03-2020, 11:01 AM   #91
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This is the type of LC talk that I think does more harm than good. While it's true to say that there will never be a 'perfect' environment, it is a misconception to think that it is never necessary to change one's environment.

As I see it, the danger isn't in wanting something better, it's in not knowing when it's time to get out of a certain situation, whether that be a situation involving abuse or anything else.
I don't think the quote is saying that "it is never necessary to change one's environment" is it?

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Originally Posted by Nee (Watchman Wednesday)
There is no need to have a new environment or a certain set of conditions to express the life of Christ. We should not cherish false hopes or think that we can live a spiritual life only when our environment is perfect.
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Old 06-03-2020, 11:38 AM   #92
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I don't think the quote is saying that "it is never necessary to change one's environment" is it?
It doesn't say that, but it seems the implication in the statement is don't worry about environment as a factor in one's spiritual life. Maybe 90% of the time, the environment is just something that we have to learn to deal with, but what about the other 10% of the time?

I can think of several situations I saw in the LC where someone would be dealing with a concerning situation and the 'advice' they would receive was not to worry about the outward situation and just press on. Then eventually they would just lose heart, stop meeting, etc. In so many of these cases, there was the perception that taking an initiative to change one's environment was bad or selfish, when in fact, it was probably exactly what was needed in the situation.
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Old 06-03-2020, 12:36 PM   #93
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In so many of these cases, there was the perception that taking an initiative to change one's environment was bad or selfish, when in fact, it was probably exactly what was needed in the situation.
As a church kid, I can second that this mindset is produced by this kind of speaking.
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Old 06-03-2020, 12:58 PM   #94
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness/Watchman Wednesday

Let me just say that this mindset is not propagated only by the LC. For instance, psychologists counsel people all the time that just because they move away, it doesn't mean their problems will simply be left behind - this is running away to escape problems instead of confronting them. However, there certainly are also instances where a change is environment actually is the most prudent thing.

So there shouldn't be a hard rule for this. What is really needed is being sensitive to what the Lord is leading, through the Anointing in each believer, right?
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Old 06-03-2020, 02:22 PM   #95
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I think the issue with it, or at least my issue with it, is the inherent face slap that always seems to come with so much of Nee and Lee's teachings.

Nee said, "There is no need to have a new environment or a certain set of conditions to express the life of Christ. We should not cherish false hopes or think that we can live a spiritual life only when our environment is perfect."

Nee said this as part of his response to a Q&A. The question he was answering was from a sister, who asked "I feel weak physically all the time. This frustrates my spiritual walk. What should I do? How can I know the resurrection power of Christ?"

His answer comes across more as a "you don't need to have such a foolish thought as to want a change of circumstances" with a sprinkle of "just take Christ as life" and a dash of "stop talking about your problems" thrown in.

The subsequent paragraph is a lot of "you must" and "you shouldn't" and "you need to". It's rigid where it needs to be loving. He ends a paragraph by saying, "It would be wonderful if God granted you the grace of a sanguine and healthy body. But if He does not give you a healthy body, and instead leaves you as you are, you should humble yourself before Him. This is the discipline of the Holy Spirit, and it is upon you so that you will learn to express the transcendent life of Christ."

The overriding impression this gives a person is that God is a harsh commander punishing or disciplining her for some unnamed transgression by weakening her. This is simply not true, and this kind of reckless speaking is where many church kids have gotten the idea that God is out to flatten them like a pancake for no reason.

She's not asking or expecting only a perfect environment. She's down and depressed and needs understanding and encouragement, not a slap that her discouragement about her situation is the problem.
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Old 06-03-2020, 02:51 PM   #96
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Nee said this as part of his response to a Q&A. The question he was answering was from a sister, who asked "I feel weak physically all the time. This frustrates my spiritual walk. What should I do? How can I know the resurrection power of Christ?"

His answer comes across more as a "you don't need to have such a foolish thought as to want a change of circumstances" with a sprinkle of "just take Christ as life" and a dash of "stop talking about your problems" thrown in.

The subsequent paragraph is a lot of "you must" and "you shouldn't" and "you need to". It's rigid where it needs to be loving. He ends a paragraph by saying, "It would be wonderful if God granted you the grace of a sanguine and healthy body. But if He does not give you a healthy body, and instead leaves you as you are, you should humble yourself before Him. This is the discipline of the Holy Spirit, and it is upon you so that you will learn to express the transcendent life of Christ."

The overriding impression this gives a person is that God is a harsh commander punishing or disciplining her for some unnamed transgression by weakening her. This is simply not true, and this kind of reckless speaking is where many church kids have gotten the idea that God is out to flatten them like a pancake for no reason.

She's not asking or expecting only a perfect environment. She's down and depressed and needs understanding and encouragement, not a slap that her discouragement about her situation is the problem.
Okay, that's more information on that and it does seem a little condescending. Sorta reminds me of the Nee book title, "The Breaking of the Outer Man for the Release of the Spirit." The part of that which was always off-putting to me was the first part about the "breaking of the outer man." While there is certainly the principal of death and resurrection in the Christian life, I don't know that the Lord is making us focus on the death aspect. And the experience of the cross (death & resurrection) is not something we can pursue and attain apart from Christ. In other words, the cross and all God wants us to experience is brought to us in Christ and by looking to Jesus, the Author & Finisher.

Maybe it was just me, but putting "breaking of the outer man" at the beginning of that title seem to mean God's focus was first and foremost about breaking me utterly. For that reason, I was never able to get into that book and read more than just a few pages, because I had that negative notion about it (right or wrong).

The experience of the cross is not a heavy, burdensome thing, and Jesus tells us as much. Death is a painless thing - just ask dead people . . . they feel no pain and can provide zero response. In my book, death is something to go through quickly so resurrection happens, therefore why focus much on it?

Anyway, just my opinion, but it just seems the emphasis is off when the loving purpose is really about bringing us into resurrection life, not crushing us. (BTW - many of these books now leave off that part and it's just "The Release of the Spirit.")
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Old 06-04-2020, 03:04 PM   #97
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For myself, I didn't realise that when the Lords prayer says, 'deliver us from evil' it really meant, 'steep us in evil till we've learnt our lessons!'

There are some things we cannot change, like world events or being jailed for the last 20 or so years of our lives.(!) We need to make our peace within those, as WN's quote directs. Hopefully he followed his own advice when most relevant to himself!

Jabez prayed that he would have an easy and blessed life! God was happy with that, more than his brothers who did not make such a request.

In a certain context, like the story of Job, WN's words fit. There can be a purpose within our struggles and disappointments. The testimony here is that acknowledgement of this inevitable component of life can be misapplied and made into a reason to allow oneself to passively accept mistreatment from others. Eliminating all the scriptures about standing up for what is right and protecting the weak and vulnerable. It was even a poor application at the time WN spoke it. It's then gone on to help create leverage for abuse which the LC seem to be experts at doing.
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Old 07-01-2020, 09:17 AM   #98
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In order for us to learn to be an authority, we must also learn to set ourselves apart from the brothers and sisters. We need to refrain from many things which we otherwise could do or say. We should be separated in our speech and in our emotion. We cannot be too loose or easy-going. Sparrows fly in company, but the eagles fly alone. If we can only fly low and not suffer the loneliness of flying high, we are not qualified to be an authority. In order to be an authority, we have to be restricted and must separate ourselves.
When I saw this quote, what immediately came to mind is that many of those who are in leadership positions in the LC tend to mimic this type of behavior. I always wondered why so many of the elders would come across as unapproachable, and over time, it became apparent that the whole authority structure is built off of things like that. It has nothing to do with who is qualified to be in a leadership position. It's all about who is best at acting more spiritual and superior to others.
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Old 07-01-2020, 11:37 AM   #99
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The whole quote harshes my mellow. I'm trying to see where there is one Biblical thing in this teaching that Nee says we "have to" and "must" do.

The focus on having authority is the wrong focus, entirely.

There is no thought where believers need to "set themselves apart" from other believers to be anything special.

What on earth does it mean to be separated in our emotion? This is not Biblical.

Why are eagles better than sparrows in the church?

God never says He calls us to be lonely in the church.

And on and on.

And yet Nee says this as if it's some spiritual truth that we all must fall in line with.

Balderdash.

Honestly, at this point, when I talk to other Christians who have heard of Lee and Nee, who themselves shy away from Lee but say they love Nee......I just tell them to be careful. I've seen the same pattern of unbiblical stuff wrapped up in good sounding stuff in Nee's teachings that I see in Lee, and I say run from it.
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Old 07-01-2020, 12:02 PM   #100
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Read Paul's message to the Ephesian elders in Acts 20.17-38.

Then compare Nee's statement to what Paul lived and shared.
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Old 07-01-2020, 03:18 PM   #101
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Watchman Nee was a masochist. And like many masochists, he could not resist bringing others into his self-indulgent and self-gratifying suffering.
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Old 07-01-2020, 04:09 PM   #102
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Today's Watchman Wednesday (from "Authority & Submission"): In order for us to learn to be an authority, we must also learn to set ourselves apart from the brothers and sisters. We need to refrain from many things which we otherwise could do or say. We should be separated in our speech and in our emotion. We cannot be too loose or easy-going. Sparrows fly in company, but the eagles fly alone. If we can only fly low and not suffer the loneliness of flying high, we are not qualified to be an authority. In order to be an authority, we have to be restricted and must separate ourselves.
In our leadership training business we teach some of this to brand new, inexperienced front-line supervisors. That is, they were recently non-management and there does need to be a little distancing from those they supervise in order that they might be able to use authority effectively (some authority comes from position, but to use it effectively comes more through respect). However, too much separation is also not good - there needs to be a balance. But many young leaders have difficulty using authority, so this is the best way to get them going in their new position IMHO. And they quickly need to develop other skills like listening, empathy, developing others, etc. I don't know if any of that balance is conveyed in the larger context of this quote by Nee. However, I do remember this was one of those books I've heard that is not high on the recommended list . . . (I wonder if it came from when he was younger)

When I think of this in terms of the leading ones in my ekklesia, I don't see these "eagle" principles on display. That is, I work and interact side-by side with these brothers all that time, and never get the impression that they are "eagles" soaring apart and above me! (I think they actually love me and everyone else, and want to be around others!)

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Read Paul's message to the Ephesian elders in Acts 20.17-38.

Then compare Nee's statement to what Paul lived and shared.
Good verses and a great example of Servant Leadership (aka Christ)!
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Old 07-01-2020, 04:50 PM   #103
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Nee in particular had a big misconception regarding leadership. He equated leadership and authority. Of course, authority is a characteristic of leadership. But it's not even the first thing that comes to mind in most discussions of what being a leader involves.

My impression is that Nee was viewed as a leader even when he was a young adult, so for all we know at that age he might have viewed being a leader as a role involving nothing more than telling others what to do. At least that is the type of view that some of his ministry seems to reflect.
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Old 07-01-2020, 08:59 PM   #104
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There is an obvious reason why Watchman Nee makes no scriptural reference in this statement. Soaring like an Eagle is biblical, but not in association with a leadership role. Its just sophisticated sounding nonsense, that's all!
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Old 07-02-2020, 02:34 AM   #105
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Nee:
"In order for us to learn to be an authority, we must also learn to set ourselves apart from the brothers and sisters. We need to refrain from many things which we otherwise could do or say. We should be separated in our speech and in our emotion. We cannot be too loose or easy-going. Sparrows fly in company, but the eagles fly alone. If we can only fly low and not suffer the loneliness of flying high, we are not qualified to be an authority. In order to be an authority, we have to be restricted and must separate ourselves.2

Jesus: Matthew 20:25-28
You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their superiors exercise authority over them. It shall not be this way among you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first among you must be your slave— just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His life as a ransom for many.”

It seems that Nee's description of an authority, an eagle, fits the "ruler of the Gentiles" flying high, alone and above the sparrows, superior and lording it over the sparrows, exercising authority over them. And the Lord´s description of someone great is of another sparrow, but one that flies low, even lower than the other sparrows, serving them and slaving for them, together with them, not alone.
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Old 07-02-2020, 04:27 AM   #106
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness/Watchman Wednesday

Here we see on full display Nee's accommodation of Darby's leadership position among the Brethren into a Chinese context of "Recovery" becoming the 20th century MOTA -- Minister of the Age.
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Old 07-02-2020, 12:25 PM   #107
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Nee in particular had a big misconception regarding leadership. He equated leadership and authority. Of course, authority is a characteristic of leadership. But it's not even the first thing that comes to mind in most discussions of what being a leader involves.

My impression is that Nee was viewed as a leader even when he was a young adult, so for all we know at that age he might have viewed being a leader as a role involving nothing more than telling others what to do. At least that is the type of view that some of his ministry seems to reflect.
Someone of a keener intellect certainly may be looked to as a leader, whether they have the wisdom and skills to be in that role - intelligence does not necessarily translate into effectiveness. Does anyone know how old Nee was when that book (or speaking) was done?

And if he was older at that point, age also does not a good leader make! In our business we see people all the time who have been in leadership roles for many years, who do not practice certain effective basics. They don't understand why their people are behaving a particular way ("These people are driving me nuts! Can you fix them?"), without realizing they've created many of these things themselves . . .
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Old 07-03-2020, 07:25 AM   #108
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The whole quote harshes my mellow. I'm trying to see where there is one Biblical thing in this teaching that Nee says we "have to" and "must" do.

Honestly, at this point, when I talk to other Christians who have heard of Lee and Nee, who themselves shy away from Lee but say they love Nee......I just tell them to be careful. I've seen the same pattern of unbiblical stuff wrapped up in good sounding stuff in Nee's teachings that I see in Lee, and I say run from it.
Lee attracted attention in the US after many read Nee's The Normal Christian Church Life. I heard many testimonies of this back in the day.

History shows us that neither Nee nor Lee ever followed this book, the so-called "Blueprint" for a healthy, recovered, NT church. That's why I concluded the whole program was a farce.
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Old 07-03-2020, 09:09 PM   #109
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In our business we see people all the time who have been in leadership roles for many years, who do not practice certain effective basics. They don't understand why their people are behaving a particular way ("These people are driving me nuts! Can you fix them?"), without realizing they've created many of these things themselves . . .
And look at the poor Chinese government trying to get their heads around these rebellious people in Hong Kong! The British government had no such struggles, the people so cooperative then, and so obstinate now! The poor Chinese government are being 'driven nuts' by all this opposition! How to 'fix' them? Denying them freedom of speech, and squashing them like ants, being arrested and held with no trial. Well, this is just trying to manage it all with the force it clearly requires, not possibly making things worse. After all, the people of HK are the meanies, saying nasty things about the poor, mistreated People's Republic of China!

Its so hard when you are absolutely right all the time and others just can't see it! The world thinks you are a monster, and don't realise what a mistreated victim you really are. The fact another governing body got a totally co-operative response and did so without all this force, (in fact, enshrining the right to disagree in the population), just totally lost on the (self) righteous Chinese government!!
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Old 07-04-2020, 04:06 AM   #110
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Someone of a keener intellect certainly may be looked to as a leader, whether they have the wisdom and skills to be in that role - intelligence does not necessarily translate into effectiveness. Does anyone know how old Nee was when that book (or speaking) was done?

And if he was older at that point, age also does not a good leader make! In our business we see people all the time who have been in leadership roles for many years, who do not practice certain effective basics. They don't understand why their people are behaving a particular way ("These people are driving me nuts! Can you fix them?"), without realizing they've created many of these things themselves . . .
The messages were give after Nee was "restored" by Lee to the ministry in 1948, when Nee was 46-47 years old. The elders of the Shanghai Christian assembly, whom Nee himself had appointed, had removed him from the ministry in 1942 for improper relations with women. (Ref Dr. Lily Hsu book.)

Nee's teachings on authority all but guaranteed that he would never again be disciplined from within the collection of "Little Flock" churches he had created. Troublesome also were the decisions Nee made, as the presumptive authoritative spokesman for the entire movement, with the CCP in the months after these teachings were given to all the elders and workers.
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Old Yesterday, 05:33 PM   #111
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However, if you live the church life, the very Christ whom you offer to God will heal you. He is better than any psychiatrist. Do not go to a psychiatrist - come to Christ and offer Him to God. Then you will be healthy, sober, and emotionally balanced.
This is a good example of the dangerous types of things that WL taught. I imagine that when WL was up there giving all these messages, some heard these things and ran with it, others heard it and just shrugged it off, knowing very well that it was nonsense. But in either case, no one would dare characterize anything that WL taught as falling into the category of being optional or okay to disagree with.

When people are dealing with issues like substance abuse or mental health, there are often cases where some type of professional help or intervention is necessary. When WL said instead that the church life would heal people of all those problems, everyone who took his words at face value was automatically setup for failure.

Even worse, that eventual failure means that person inadvertently becomes a counterexample to something that WL taught, even if they had no intention of expressing disagreement or opposition to that kind of teaching. I can think of a number of people I knew in the LC who suffered from mental health issues. They were almost always looked down on. The were treated as if anything they were suffering from was their own fault because if they were right with God, then the church life would have fixed their problems already.
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Old Yesterday, 07:42 PM   #112
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness/Watchman Wednesday

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This is a good example of the dangerous types of things that WL taught.

When WL said instead that the church life would heal people of all those problems, everyone who took his words at face value was automatically setup for failure.

They were treated as if anything they were suffering from was their own fault because if they were right with God, then the church life would have fixed their problems already.
This stuff in the LC just makes me mad. It makes me mad that everyone in the LC knows that WL taught this stuff, but the co-workers turn around and put articles up on "shepherding" sites that make it seem like it was never taught and that "of course we have always taken mental health seriously".

Someone showed me a Q&R (not Q&A mind you, because, of course, no one has all the answers *eye roll*) on youtube recently that is apparently of various co-workers giving their responses and input and fellowship to questions that were submitted. I think one of the questions had to do with the negative way the ministry spoke about marriage. And one of the co-workers responding had the audacity to say (paraphrased) "this question just shows how delusional young brothers in the church can get"......WHEN THE VERY QUESTION WAS PRECISELY ABOUT WHAT IS IN PRINT ABOUT HOW WL SPOKE OF MARRIAGE IN THE MINISTRY.

When you start manhandling such delicate and weighty topics as mental health and marriage, the responsibility for your errors skyrockets because the direct effects are so devastating and long-lasting.

It's a sick place.
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Old Yesterday, 07:49 PM   #113
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness/Watchman Wednesday

What dies it even mean, that we are to 'offer Christ to God' ? WL says that twice in the short quote offered, but I've never heard that idea before. It seems nonsensical, maybe someone has an explanation?

Also, there are many Christian professionals in the area of mental health. Good psychology is not necessarily in conflict with the principles of the Bible. Of course the best outcome is to combine them together, but the same principles that work at the core of psychology are named in the bible too. They may be named differently but they are there.
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Old Yesterday, 08:29 PM   #114
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness/Watchman Wednesday

I have the same question. What does that mean? How do you do it? Is there a New Testament verse supporting this teaching?

Given what we’ve heard from Minoru and RK lately, it sounds like a good reason to seek advice from a mental health professional.
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Old Yesterday, 08:54 PM   #115
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness/Watchman Wednesday

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When you start manhandling such delicate and weighty topics as mental health and marriage, the responsibility for your errors skyrockets because the direct effects are so devastating and long-lasting. It's a sick place.
It really is sick - the victim-blaming, the gas-lighting, etc. The longer I was in the LC, the more people I saw getting hurt by it. How hard would it be for them to simply distance themselves from some of the things that WL taught? How hard would to be for them to take some of that stuff out of print? Most people in the LC know exactly what WL said. It's insulting to everyone's intelligence for them to write articles about how they've never discouraged people from getting treatment for mental health.

The LC has been around long enough that there has been plenty of opportunity to observe the outcome of these different teachings. Lots of people have had the exact same objections to certain teachings. Likewise there are lots of similar patterns in the ways that people have been hurt by the LC or some of these teachings. The evidence is all there right in front of everyone's eyes.

Whenever anyone calls out LC leadership on these readily-apparent issues, it seems they double down. The LC will accuse people of having certain motives, or claim that they are misinterpreting what WL said (even though he's been dead over 20 years). They're not really fooling anyone besides those who choose to be ignorant.
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Old Yesterday, 09:09 PM   #116
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness/Watchman Wednesday

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What dies it even mean, that we are to 'offer Christ to God' ? WL says that twice in the short quote offered, but I've never heard that idea before. It seems nonsensical, maybe someone has an explanation?
Based on the OT sacrifices, the children of Israel had to offer a sacrifice to God for their sin, peace, trespass offerings based on Leviticus. WL taught that Christ was the reality of every offering, and today we can offer Christ to God as our sin, peace, trespass offerings. WL had a "monumental" conference on this, with books written, and followup messages on the topic. After that conference he regularly spoke of this.
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Old Yesterday, 09:19 PM   #117
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness/Watchman Wednesday

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This is a good example of the dangerous types of things that WL taught. I imagine that when WL was up there giving all these messages, some heard these things and ran with it, others heard it and just shrugged it off, knowing very well that it was nonsense. But in either case, no one would dare characterize anything that WL taught as falling into the category of being optional or okay to disagree with.

When people are dealing with issues like substance abuse or mental health, there are often cases where some type of professional help or intervention is necessary. When WL said instead that the church life would heal people of all those problems, everyone who took his words at face value was automatically setup for failure.

Even worse, that eventual failure means that person inadvertently becomes a counterexample to something that WL taught, even if they had no intention of expressing disagreement or opposition to that kind of teaching. I can think of a number of people I knew in the LC who suffered from mental health issues. They were almost always looked down on. The were treated as if anything they were suffering from was their own fault because if they were right with God, then the church life would have fixed their problems already.
In the early days, there were some miraculous healings and answers to prayer in the church life. Tragically, it seemed that WL took credit for these wondrous events rather than giving all the glory to God. It is in this context that WL made the arrogant comment above. As the years wore on, and WL usurped the Lord's place in the LC, these stories basically disappeared.
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Old Yesterday, 09:43 PM   #118
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness/Watchman Wednesday

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Based on the OT sacrifices, the children of Israel had to offer a sacrifice to God for their sin, peace, trespass offerings based on Leviticus. WL taught that Christ was the reality of every offering, and today we can offer Christ to God as our sin, peace, trespass offerings. WL had a "monumental" conference on this, with books written, and followup messages on the topic. After that conference he regularly spoke of this.
According to Heb. 10:12-18, there was one offering, Christ, once for all, which further would nullify this WL “offering” teaching. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive, and the blood of Jesus cleanses... .

But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 Whereof the Holy Spirit also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
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Old Today, 12:14 AM   #119
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Default Re: Quote from today's Witness/Watchman Wednesday

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Based on the OT sacrifices, the children of Israel had to offer a sacrifice to God for their sin, peace, trespass offerings based on Leviticus. WL taught that Christ was the reality of every offering, and today we can offer Christ to God as our sin, peace, trespass offerings. WL had a "monumental" conference on this, with books written, and followup messages on the topic. After that conference he regularly spoke of this.
Thanks ohio and Nell, for your responses to this question of mine. That makes sense and gives context to this assertion.

It seems to me that it creates another religious activity that can easily become void of real meaning. 'Offering Christ back to God' can become just more words and an excuse not to have a humble, repentant heart. Which I think is essential for a maturing Christian.

My assessment is that God looks at the heart, and the conscience of a person with a humble heart guides them to repent of recognised sin before God and man.

God is interested in our attitude towards ourselves, others and Him. I think this is more important than dissecting it theologically. Just cause Jesus is the one final appropriation for our sin, doesn't mean we only appeal to him once for forgiveness. That does not need to be a logical restriction on the meaning. He died once to save us from our sins. We appeal to him for help every day of our lives.

Saying 'sorry' to a person for an aggrievance is a form of demonstrating respect to that person. Respect alignes with love and giving dignity. It is essential for healthy relationships. So it makes sense that it is a necessary part of loving God too. Love God as you love others... that is back to front, we are to love God more, so part of that is to repent to Him if it's right to repent to our brother if we get it wrong, as we are bound to do along the way. It is the practical part 9f recognising we are fallen and rely on God's grace. His grace demonstrated by forgiveness and to be experienced daily.

I know that's a rant but I feel strongly about this topic.
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