MOTA - Lurkers Allowed!

leastofthese · 10-26-2018, 05:52 PM

Just kidding - Lurkers WELCOME!!!

I'd love to hear from people inside the LSM churches. I've cut and pasted a good portion of text from afaithfulword.org article on the MOTA - click the link below to access the entire text.

Do folks in the Local Churches still hold to this theology?

Would you consider this central to your relationship with Christ?

If the concept of MOTA is flawed, or Lee isn't a MOTA - how does that change how your church would function?

https://afaithfulword.org/articles/V...ster/#Minister

AThere is only one blueprint and one master builder in the proper, correct building. The only master builder is the architect who has the blueprint in his hand. This is true in every age. The Lord issues the blueprint, the revelation, and the utterance, and through one man, He supervises and completes the building work. All those who do not build, speak, or serve according to the blueprint released by the Lord through that man are void of light and revelation and are not serving according to the vision. Today in the Lord's recovery, some are preaching and publishing messages. The portions in their messages that impart light, revelation, and the life supply invariably derive their source from this ministry in the Lord's recovery. Other than those portions, there is no revelation or vision in their writings. ( The Vision of the Age , p. 30)

To say that there is a unique minister of the age who is the one used by God to present the vision of the age does not negate the truth that there are many ministers (2 Cor. 3:6) participating in the service of the one New Testament ministry (Acts 1:17, 25; 2 Cor. 4:1; Eph. 4:12; 1 Tim. 1:12). In fact, the article "The Content of the Vision of the Age" in The Ministry Magazine affirms this truth:

We are here in the church life, and this ministry of the age is being carried out through us. (Benson Phillips, "The Content of the Vision of the Age", The Ministry Magazine, vol. 7, no. 6, August 2003, p. 36)

Had the term "minister of the age" been defined as anyone participating in carrying out the ministry of the age, then all of the saints who have been perfected "unto the work of the ministry" (Eph. 4:12), who are standing with the Lord according to the vision of the age, would be "ministers of the age". That, however, is not the meaning of the term as the co-workers defined and used it. The term "minister of the age" was presented with a specific denotation and to reinterpret it is to deny the function of the five-talented members the Lord has given to His Body. In the co-workers' usage, the minister of the age is not just a person serving according to the vision of the age; he is the person the Lord uses to bring the vision of the age to His church, the person through whom the recovery of the vision advances.

... in every age there is a particular vision. This vision is released not through many persons but through one person who is the minister of that age. There is the vision of the age, and the one who receives this vision becomes the minister of the age. All the others who are with him are led through this one, and the vision is released to them. Then, all together, they speak out this one vision according to the leading of the one to whom the Lord has chosen to give the vision of the age. (Benson Phillips, "The Content of the Vision of the Age", The Ministry Magazine, August 2003, vol. 7, no. 6, p. 34)

This understanding matches Brother Lee's word on the vision of the age given in 1986. On pages 31 through 36 of The Vision of the Age, Brother Lee gave a brief sketch of the Old Testament showing that in every age there was a unique vision released through one man, starting from Adam and continuing through Abel, Enosh, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, etc. He further demonstrated the same principle in the New Testament record of John the Baptist, the Lord Jesus, Peter, and Paul. He then applied the same principle to the history of the Lord's recovery beginning from the time of Martin Luther:

...At the time of the Reformation in the 1520s, when Luther was raised up, anyone who wanted to serve under a vision had to join himself to Luther. In the seventeenth century, anyone who wanted to serve under a vision had to join himself to Madame Guyon. In the eighteenth century, anyone who wanted to serve under a vision had to join himself to Zinzendorf. Even John Wesley received help from Zinzendorf. In the nineteenth century, J. N. Darby took the lead among the Brethren, and the vision was with him. In the twentieth century, the vision came to us. ( The Vision of the Age , p. 27)

The author of "On 'The Ministry of the Age' and 'The Minister of the Age': What did Watchman Nee Teach?" completely ignores Brother Lee's fellowship in The Vision of the Age , as well as all of Brother Lee's speaking on the uniqueness of Watchman Nee's ministry. It appears to be his intent to pit Brother Nee against Brother Lee based on Brother Nee's use of an indefinite article. This is indefensible in just the same way it is to argue that "a life-giving Spirit" in 1 Corinthians 15:45b does not refer to the Spirit in the Godhead. 1 It is noteworthy that in Brother Nee's identification of Luther as "a minister of the age" and of Darby as "a minister of the age," there is no overlap and no one else identified as a minister of their respective ages, even though there were many others serving and speaking contemporaneously with them. The point is that a minister of the age brings forth the vision of the age to govern the living and service of God's people in that age.

The release of the vision of the age is the sounding of the one trumpet to lead the Lord's people. The sounding of this trumpet must be unique and the one taking the lead to sound the trumpet is the minister of the age.

...God would not send out trumpeters to sound different trumpets for His army to fight the battle (1 Cor. 14:8; Num. 10:9; Judg. 7:18). This would be confusion. God is wiser than this. He will raise up only one trumpeter to sound one calling, one voice, so that His people on the earth can march on. ( The Testimony of Jesus , p. 99)

Why is this important? It is more than mere semantics. To designate a certain person as a "minister of the age" is to say that he is the person through whom the Lord's up-to-date vision is being or has been released. As a result, that person and the vision released through him exercise a leadership role in advancing the Lord's move in His recovery. The actual leadership in the Lord's recovery rests not so much in a person, but more in a governing vision.

Since we have the up-to-date and ultimate vision, we should closely follow after it. We are absolutely not following a man; rather, we are following a vision. It is grossly wrong to say that we are following a certain person. We are following a vision that belongs to the present age. It is God's consummate vision. ( The Vision of the Age , p. 49)

Therefore, you are not following a man; rather, you are standing with the Lord's ministry. You are following a vision, a vision that matches the age, a vision that inherits all that was in the past and a vision that is all-inclusive. It is up to date, and yet it builds on the past. If you remain in the book of Acts, you may have inherited everything prior to that time, but you are not up to date. Today as we stand here and ponder the revelations unveiled in the Lord's recovery, as we read the publications that are released among us, we can see that they cover everything from the church to God's economy to the New Jerusalem in the new heaven and new earth. This is a bountiful and all-sufficient vision. If you remain in this vision, you are serving according to the vision. If you are not in this vision, you could still be an Apollos, expounding the Scriptures in a powerful way; you could still be a Barnabas, visiting the churches; you could still be a James, serving piously; and you could even be a Peter, who served as the leading apostle. However, you would not be in the vision. ( The Vision of the Age , pp. 52-53)

It seems that those who seek to designate "many different ministers of the age" are seeking to establish their own credentials to lead the Lord's recovery in a direction different from the one delivered to us by Brother Nee and Brother Lee as the vision of the age. Actually, the dissenting ones have departed from this vision. One of the dissenting ones openly advocates returning to the model of the Reformation, a time when there were many different voices with different teachings contending with one another.

...Eventually the Lord raised up Martin Luther, along with many others of his generation. They might have held different views on some matters, but they complemented one another in the same way that Peter, Paul, and John had. (Frank Lin, "God Speaking in Many Portions and in Many Ways," Fellowship Journal, vol. 4, no. 7)

This one is willing to let history sort out the truth. To say this is to no longer stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before, but rather to abandon what the Lord has recovered among us of the practical oneness of the Body of Christ and to return to a pattern that has resulted in division after division. From as early as the first century, the failure of the church and even of the workers to enter into the vision of the age released through Paul became the cause of a general falling away and of division in the Body of Christ. This pattern has been repeated again and again throughout church history.

Why is it that there were divisions even from the time while the apostles, including Paul and John, were still here on this earth? Divisions began to take place from the last part of the first century and have continued to take place until the present century. There have been divisions after divisions, which have caused all kinds of confusion. What is the reason for all these divisions? They all came about simply because of different so-called ministries...

We need to be very clear that the foundation of all the denominations and the factor that produces each denomination are their different ministries. If all the Christians today would be willing for the Lord to take away their different ministries, they would all be one. The basic factor of all the divisions, their very root, is different ministries.... ( Elders' Training, Book 1: The Ministry of the New Testament , p. 14)

We need to see this principle throughout the entire Christian era. All the troubles, divisions, and confusions came from the one source of the tolerance of different ministries. Many Christian teachers have known the peril of different ministries; nevertheless, they have tolerated them. There has been a tolerance of different ministries. In the Lord's recovery, for the long run, we should not believe that this kind of creeping in of the different ministries would never take place. Rather, we must be on the alert. Such a peril is ahead of us. If we are not watchful, if we are careless, in one way or another the enemy would creepingly use some means, some ways, to bring in different ministries. Such a thing would end the Lord's recovery. ( Elders' Training, Book 1: The Ministry of the New Testament , p. 16)

Nevertheless, all of us need to realize that we are in the Lord's recovery. The first characteristic of the Lord's recovery is oneness. Once we lose the oneness, we are through. If we lose the oneness, we are no longer the Lord's recovery. Therefore, we need to see that there is a peril of different teachings and different opinions damaging the oneness. ( Elders' Training, Book 1: The Ministry of the New Testament , p. 29)

There is no doubt that Brother Lee considered Watchman Nee to be the minister of the age. Brother Lee's concluding word in his biography of Watchman Nee says:

awareness · 10-26-2018, 08:26 PM

So who's the minister of the age today?

Trapped · 10-26-2018, 08:57 PM

awareness, I was just gonna ask the same thing!

leastofthese, I'd never read what you posted about the MOTA from afaithfulword.org before, and the only word that comes close to how I felt when reading it was just "shameful". I am just thinking of my family members who would read it so blindly and agree with it so strongly, and it makes me sad. I almost cannot read the constant meaningless drumbeat of oneness, trumpet, vision, minister, unique, critical, must, only, should, blah blah blah words of "the ministry" any more without feeling sick.

'THE PERIL OF DIFFERENT MINISTRIES"??????

1 Corinthians 1:5 - "THERE ARE DISTINCTIONS OF MINISTRIES"

AAAUUUGGHHGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

countmeworthy · 10-26-2018, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

So who's the minister of the age today?

The HOLY SPIRIT.

countmeworthy · 10-26-2018, 09:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

awareness, I was just gonna ask the same thing!

leastofthese, I'd never read what you posted about the MOTA from afaithfulword.org before, and the only word that comes close to how I felt when reading it was just "shameful". I am just thinking of my family members who would read it so blindly and agree with it so strongly, and it makes me sad. I almost cannot read the constant meaningless drumbeat of oneness, trumpet, vision, minister, unique, critical, must, only, should, blah blah blah words of "the ministry" any more without feeling sick.

1 Corinthians 1:5 - "THERE ARE DISTINCTIONS OF MINISTRIES"

AAAUUUGGHHGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

How anyone fell for that BS is really sad. It is an insult to our spirit even more so to the Holy Spirit Who from this teaching is pushing Him out of our lives. God HAVE EXTREME MERCY on these people.

countmeworthy · 10-26-2018, 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leastofthese

Just kidding - Lurkers WELCOME!!!

I'd love to hear from people inside the LSM churches. I've cut and pasted a good portion of text from afaithfulword.org article on the MOTA - click the link below to access the entire text.

Do folks in the Local Churches still hold to this theology?

Would you consider this central to your relationship with Christ?

If the concept of MOTA is flawed, or Lee isn't a MOTA - how does that change how your church would function? [/I]

I sometimes lurk..

Hoping to hear from current LSMrs.

manna-man · 10-27-2018, 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

The HOLY SPIRIT.

100% Right.

Psalm 20:7 ►
SUM PIC XRF DEV STU
Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
Some trust in chariots and some in horses, but we trust in the name of the LORD our God.

Trapped · 10-27-2018, 08:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leastofthese

This understanding matches Brother Lee's word on the vision of the age given in 1986. On pages 31 through 36 of The Vision of the Age, Brother Lee gave a brief sketch of the Old Testament showing that in every age there was a unique vision released through one man, starting from Adam and continuing through Abel, Enosh, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, etc. He further demonstrated the same principle in the New Testament record of John the Baptist, the Lord Jesus, Peter, and Paul. He then applied the same principle to the history of the Lord's recovery beginning from the time of Martin Luther:

...At the time of the Reformation in the 1520s, when Luther was raised up, anyone who wanted to serve under a vision had to join himself to Luther. In the seventeenth century, anyone who wanted to serve under a vision had to join himself to Madame Guyon. In the eighteenth century, anyone who wanted to serve under a vision had to join himself to Zinzendorf. Even John Wesley received help from Zinzendorf. In the nineteenth century, J. N. Darby took the lead among the Brethren, and the vision was with him. In the twentieth century, the vision came to us. ( The Vision of the Age , p. 27)

The quoted text above mentions some in the so-called lineage of MOTAs.

From those listed:

1. Did any other MOTAs call themselves MOTAs or also ascribe to the theory of MOTAs?
2. Did any other MOTAs prohibit following anyone else?
3. Did any other MOTAs besides Lee benefit financially (or at least to the scale Lee did) from being "MOTA"?

If the answer to all the questions is "no" (and I'm not saying that is the case.....but if it is....) then isn't it curious that the only one who stood to benefit financially from being MOTA was also the only one in the lineage to "trumpet" that concept?

If there is a "yes" answer to some of those questions, then my little cynical post doesn't hold as much water. But I am interested in the answer from anyone, or any many, who may know, since I do not know with any certainty.

awareness · 10-28-2018, 12:50 PM

This vision of the age, minister of the age, et al, is an extra-Biblical figment of Lee. Vision of the age, minister of the age, is nowhere mentioned in the entire Bible.

If it were God's truth wouldn't all the supposed ministers of their age have made sure it was recorded in the word? None of them did, including Jesus. Surely if given the importance Lee put on it, it would have been clearly spelled out in the 'God inspired' word, as a central very important teaching. It is not. It's a figment. A very Chinese figment, if you ask me. Lee's figments made him unique. Why would Lee want to do that? Anybody know?

leastofthese · 10-28-2018, 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I sometimes lurk..

Hoping to hear from current LSMrs.

This concept of MOTA, I would think, is the cornerstone of the LSM and their local churches. If someone could take the other side of that thought - I’d appreciate them sharing.

Can a lurker help provide context to the cited article in the OP? This has serious and life changing implications for those who adhere to the concept of the “recovery”.

Sometimes it’s difficult to question your beliefs. My time (one year) in the LSM challenged how I had experienced and known my Lord and creator. I came out on the other side stronger in my faith. Maybe you could to? In so many ways it felt like such a waste of energy, time, and resources (looking back) - but I had seen God before meeting these “saints”, I had read and studied his word, lived in a Christian community of believers - I opened my heart and mind to their ideas (which come from Witness Lee) - the Lord protected me.

Christ is alive. Religion for the sake of religion is dead.

Ohio · 10-28-2018, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leastofthese

This concept of MOTA, I would think, is the cornerstone of the LSM and their local churches. If someone could take the other side of that thought - I’d appreciate them sharing.

Can a lurker help provide context to the cited article in the OP? This has serious and life changing implications for those who adhere to the concept of the “recovery”.

Not a "lurker" but I can provide context. This article, and the entire "afaithfulword" website is LSM's PR effort surrounding the Quarantine of Titus Chu. The written efforts began with Robichaux's blog articles in late 2005 (when I left) and early 2006 (see footnote #1 at the end of this article linked in OP). The internet "tract war" escalated over time with punches and counterpunches, letters and responses, over the next few years. The old Bereans forum was quite helpful and provided a much needed for individuals to correspond until mid-2008, when it became quite unreliable, and UntoHim started this forum.

Supposedly following Paul's instruction in Titus 3.10, the Blendeds wrote demanding "cease and desist" letters to Titus Chu, which he responded to. Other letters by Midwest leaders were compiled into a "concerned brothers" website. Some of these detailed legal activities in Ohio and Ontario. Along with "afaithfulword" website, LSM printed the glossy set of 28 pamphlets, a nicely color coordinated "Attack Pack," sent out to many saints, myself included. If the truths of scripture exactly corresponded with the quality of media publications, then surely LSM had the upper hand.

Unfortunately for LSM, the actual truths of scripture rested solidly with Titus Chu and the Midwest brothers. TC's growing influence around the globe was a serious threat to the Blended power base. Thus TC had to go. Whatever the cost. For example, a number of overseas saints began to clamor "Nee, Lee, Chu." Here you see the influence of LC MOTA practice even for those who did not strictly adhere to Lee's chosen successors.

What LSM had in their favor was an adherence to "Later-Lee," the increasingly exclusive nature of Lee's teachings, post Life-Study period. After Lee died, TC had dozens of his Midwest workers scouring Lee's books for quotes on these specific subjects, thinking that leading Blendeds would be open to "Early-Lee" teachings on these pertinent topics. TC would hand carry these quotes to Anaheim. What a mistake. What a waste of time for these workers. The Blendeds only care for their power, be damned with collateral damages, with Lee's personal instructions superseding scripture.

Thus LSM's entire basis for the quarantine of TC and all else they do is the elevation of Nee and Lee to MOTA status. The MOTA trumps truth in the minds of the faithful.

Trapped · 10-28-2018, 10:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leastofthese

This understanding matches Brother Lee's word on the vision of the age given in 1986. On pages 31 through 36 of The Vision of the Age, Brother Lee gave a brief sketch of the Old Testament showing that in every age there was a unique vision released through one man, starting from Adam and continuing through Abel, Enosh, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, etc. He further demonstrated the same principle in the New Testament record of John the Baptist, the Lord Jesus, Peter, and Paul. He then applied the same principle to the history of the Lord's recovery beginning from the time of Martin Luther:

......what constitutes "an age"? Weren't John the Baptist and the Lord alive at the same time (or else how could the Lord have grieved John's being beheaded)? Weren't Peter and Paul alive at the same time? How can they thus be the unique ministers of their age?

aron · 10-29-2018, 06:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

......what constitutes "an age"? Weren't John the Baptist and the Lord alive at the same time (or else how could the Lord have grieved John's being beheaded)? Weren't Peter and Paul alive at the same time? How can they thus be the unique ministers of their age?

Not only that, but John was apparently " rehabilitated" or "restored" after Paul died? The disconnect with the theory and the facts on the ground is evident to all but the most slavish adherents.

The culmination of the MOTA and "one vision per age" idea was floated from the dias once Lee passed. It was declared that from now on, there were to be no more spiritual giants, no more seers of the divine revelation.

Now we the unrevelated small fry had to glean the writings of the great men who came before.

Talk about a self-serving teaching! "Today's vision is that henceforth there are to be no more revelations. All that's left on the earth is to review (our) ministry materials."

But if today's revelation is that there are no more revelations, isn't that contradicting itself?

Ohio · 10-29-2018, 06:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trapped

......what constitutes "an age"? Weren't John the Baptist and the Lord alive at the same time (or else how could the Lord have grieved John's being beheaded)? Weren't Peter and Paul alive at the same time? How can they thus be the unique ministers of their age?

Witness Lee's version of church history is filled with self-serving half-truths.

awareness · 10-29-2018, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ohio

Witness Lee's version of church history is filled with self-serving half-truths.

Amen bro Ohio. You said in one sentence what takes me paragraphs to say.

Ohio · 10-29-2018, 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Amen bro Ohio. You said in one sentence what takes me paragraphs to say.

Every judgment needs corroborating evidence.

In this case we have much to offer.

11-05-2018, 09:43 PM

Posting, since Lurkers are allowed.

This concept of MOTA is something I see in a lot of personality cults in the east.

An example:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfec...er_(Meher_Baba)

The number in this case is 5, not 1, but the basic premise is the same.

"Baba related that there are 56 incarnate God-realized souls on Earth at any given time. Of these souls there are always five who constitute the five Perfect Masters of their era. When one of the five Perfect Masters dies, according to Baba, another God-realized soul among the 56 would replaces him or her at once."

So, this is more of a MEN OF THE AGE belief than that of MAN OF THE AGE. Perhaps with the current concept of the blendeds, LSM is not far from this.

Do they have a fixed number for blendeds or do they just use that word to refer to who ever is in the leadership committee? I never quite understood blendeds in LSM.

UntoHim · 11-07-2018, 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by For science

Do they have a fixed number for blendeds or do they just use that word to refer to who ever is in the leadership committee? I never quite understood blendeds in LSM.

Good questions! As far as the number of Blended Brothers, it's hard to say. A good place to start might be who is speaking at the bi-annual trainings and at the various regional conferences. (7 feasts?) It is my understanding that some of the older brothers, such as Andrew Yu, Dick Taylor and Benson Phillips, no longer have significant speaking rolls, however, they should be included in the Blended Brothers. I'm not sure about Taiwan and other Far East areas.

I believe that the next "turmoil" or "rebellion" may very well come from within the ranks of the Blended Brothers. And, as always in the Local Church, the division and/or dissension will be over the person and work of Witness Lee. As it stands, the Blended Brothers are the official interpreters and disseminators of "the Ministry". However, it is only a matter of time before there is a rift between the "hardliners", and those who may be a little more liberal in their interpretations and understandings.

How long before one or more of these brothers start asking themselves "who died and made us Ministers of The Age?"
-

11-08-2018, 12:43 AM

The Man of the Age that ended up causing most deaths in the world is Hong Xiuquan. For some reason, the event (Taiping Rebellion) that was the largest human catastrophe until it was overshadowed by the World Wars is never discussed and only rarely mentioned.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Xiuquan
(His religious experience account and its circumstances are fascinating, but I won't get into that since this isn't an alternative views thread).

To oversimplify, among other things, he said he was the brother of Jesus and destroyed icons of existing religion (Confucianism), much like how Jesus acted in the temple with the same conviction.

Eventually, he started The Taiping Rebellion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion

Long story short, 20-30 million people died.

So when I see China crushing cults early and insisting that the state has a handle on the church, I think it should also be seen in context of this unfortunate history rather than simply say that this is what communists do. Their unique history (also the secret societies phase) that shapes their views.

This history should especially not be ignored when discussing any eccentric Chinese Christian sect, even though it is difficult to place Taiping Heavenly Kingdom into the mould of a standard Western Christian sect.

The Church of Almighty God aka Eastern Lightning of Yang Xiangbin, a Witness Lee follower, isn't a usual sect either. This gets discussed due to the direct connection to Witness Lee, but it should also be discussed in lineage of the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom. It helps to understand the cultural forces that shaped Lee and Nee.

The best MOTAs are those we recognize as such after they passed away, not those who insist or insinuate it themselves.

awareness · 11-08-2018, 07:45 AM

Thanks for this. There's lot's to dig into. In doing so I found this concerning Hong Xiuquan : He was influenced by a book, Good Words to Admonish the Age (by Liang Fa, 1832).

Sound familiar? Thanks again whoever you are. Join up. I'd like to hear more from you.

Weighingin · 11-08-2018, 08:44 AM

This shows that many people have been killed either directly by or as a result of actions by some who claimed to be of Jesus Christ. So not only the RCC caused the deaths of many real believers in trying to eliminate “heresies.”

awareness · 11-08-2018, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Weighingin

This shows that many people have been killed either directly by or as a result of actions by some who claimed to be of Jesus Christ. So not only the RCC caused the deaths of many real believers in trying to eliminate “heresies.”

i think it shows how American's were blindsided by Chinese inclination toward cult founding. From what I've read, there's tons of parallels between Lee and Hong.

11-13-2018, 11:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

Thanks for this. There's lot's to dig into. In doing so I found this concerning Hong Xiuquan : He was influenced by a book, Good Words to Admonish the Age (by Liang Fa, 1832).

Sound familiar? Thanks again whoever you are. Join up. I'd like to hear more from you.

That (Hong post) was actually me - For science. I just had forgotten to type into the username field.

Thanks, I will sign up if I have any more posts to make on other threads.

I am not familiar with that book.

Quote:

Originally Posted by awareness

i think it shows how American's were blindsided by Chinese inclination toward cult founding.

I don't think any culture is particularly immune to cults. But I would not contest that some could be more vulnerable than others.

China seems to have fallen into the cult trap only in the last 300 hundred years - years of change, turmoil and disillusion, maybe. But then again, I am not that well read on earlier Chinese history. I would love to learn more if cults were also prevalent and influential earlier in China.

I think most of us personally overrate our ability to see through these things. It is just easier in hindsight.

awareness · 11-13-2018, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by For science

I think most of us personally overrate our ability to see through these things. It is just easier in hindsight.

That is true. I find I see through things after it's too late.

10-26-2018, 08:26 PM	#2
awareness Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 8,064	Re: MOTA - No lurkers Allowed So who's the minister of the age today? __________________ Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise.

10-26-2018, 08:57 PM	#3
Trapped Member Join Date: Mar 2018 Posts: 1,523	Re: MOTA - No lurkers Allowed awareness, I was just gonna ask the same thing! leastofthese, I'd never read what you posted about the MOTA from afaithfulword.org before, and the only word that comes close to how I felt when reading it was just "shameful". I am just thinking of my family members who would read it so blindly and agree with it so strongly, and it makes me sad. I almost cannot read the constant meaningless drumbeat of oneness, trumpet, vision, minister, unique, critical, must, only, should, blah blah blah words of "the ministry" any more without feeling sick. 'THE PERIL OF DIFFERENT MINISTRIES"?????? 1 Corinthians 1:5 - "THERE ARE DISTINCTIONS OF MINISTRIES" AAAUUUGGHHGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!

10-28-2018, 12:50 PM	#9
awareness Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 8,064	Re: MOTA - No lurkers Allowed This vision of the age, minister of the age, et al, is an extra-Biblical figment of Lee. Vision of the age, minister of the age, is nowhere mentioned in the entire Bible. If it were God's truth wouldn't all the supposed ministers of their age have made sure it was recorded in the word? None of them did, including Jesus. Surely if given the importance Lee put on it, it would have been clearly spelled out in the 'God inspired' word, as a central very important teaching. It is not. It's a figment. A very Chinese figment, if you ask me. Lee's figments made him unique. Why would Lee want to do that? Anybody know? __________________ Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise.

11-05-2018, 09:43 PM	#17
For science Guest Posts: n/a	Re: MOTA - No lurkers Allowed Posting, since Lurkers are allowed. This concept of MOTA is something I see in a lot of personality cults in the east. An example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfec...er_(Meher_Baba) The number in this case is 5, not 1, but the basic premise is the same. "Baba related that there are 56 incarnate God-realized souls on Earth at any given time. Of these souls there are always five who constitute the five Perfect Masters of their era. When one of the five Perfect Masters dies, according to Baba, another God-realized soul among the 56 would replaces him or her at once." So, this is more of a MEN OF THE AGE belief than that of MAN OF THE AGE. Perhaps with the current concept of the blendeds, LSM is not far from this. Do they have a fixed number for blendeds or do they just use that word to refer to who ever is in the leadership committee? I never quite understood blendeds in LSM.

11-08-2018, 12:43 AM	#19
Unregistered Guest Posts: n/a	Re: MOTA - Lurkers Allowed! The Man of the Age that ended up causing most deaths in the world is Hong Xiuquan. For some reason, the event (Taiping Rebellion) that was the largest human catastrophe until it was overshadowed by the World Wars is never discussed and only rarely mentioned. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hong_Xiuquan (His religious experience account and its circumstances are fascinating, but I won't get into that since this isn't an alternative views thread). To oversimplify, among other things, he said he was the brother of Jesus and destroyed icons of existing religion (Confucianism), much like how Jesus acted in the temple with the same conviction. Eventually, he started The Taiping Rebellion. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion Long story short, 20-30 million people died. So when I see China crushing cults early and insisting that the state has a handle on the church, I think it should also be seen in context of this unfortunate history rather than simply say that this is what communists do. Their unique history (also the secret societies phase) that shapes their views. This history should especially not be ignored when discussing any eccentric Chinese Christian sect, even though it is difficult to place Taiping Heavenly Kingdom into the mould of a standard Western Christian sect. The Church of Almighty God aka Eastern Lightning of Yang Xiangbin, a Witness Lee follower, isn't a usual sect either. This gets discussed due to the direct connection to Witness Lee, but it should also be discussed in lineage of the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom. It helps to understand the cultural forces that shaped Lee and Nee. The best MOTAs are those we recognize as such after they passed away, not those who insist or insinuate it themselves.

10-26-2018, 05:52 PM	#1
leastofthese Member Join Date: Dec 2016 Posts: 510	MOTA - Lurkers Allowed! Just kidding - Lurkers WELCOME!!! I'd love to hear from people inside the LSM churches. I've cut and pasted a good portion of text from afaithfulword.org article on the MOTA - click the link below to access the entire text. Do folks in the Local Churches still hold to this theology? Would you consider this central to your relationship with Christ? If the concept of MOTA is flawed, or Lee isn't a MOTA - how does that change how your church would function? https://afaithfulword.org/articles/V...ster/#Minister AThere is only one blueprint and one master builder in the proper, correct building. The only master builder is the architect who has the blueprint in his hand. This is true in every age. The Lord issues the blueprint, the revelation, and the utterance, and through one man, He supervises and completes the building work. All those who do not build, speak, or serve according to the blueprint released by the Lord through that man are void of light and revelation and are not serving according to the vision. Today in the Lord's recovery, some are preaching and publishing messages. The portions in their messages that impart light, revelation, and the life supply invariably derive their source from this ministry in the Lord's recovery. Other than those portions, there is no revelation or vision in their writings. ( The Vision of the Age , p. 30) To say that there is a unique minister of the age who is the one used by God to present the vision of the age does not negate the truth that there are many ministers (2 Cor. 3:6) participating in the service of the one New Testament ministry (Acts 1:17, 25; 2 Cor. 4:1; Eph. 4:12; 1 Tim. 1:12). In fact, the article "The Content of the Vision of the Age" in The Ministry Magazine affirms this truth: We are here in the church life, and this ministry of the age is being carried out through us. (Benson Phillips, "The Content of the Vision of the Age", The Ministry Magazine, vol. 7, no. 6, August 2003, p. 36) Had the term "minister of the age" been defined as anyone participating in carrying out the ministry of the age, then all of the saints who have been perfected "unto the work of the ministry" (Eph. 4:12), who are standing with the Lord according to the vision of the age, would be "ministers of the age". That, however, is not the meaning of the term as the co-workers defined and used it. The term "minister of the age" was presented with a specific denotation and to reinterpret it is to deny the function of the five-talented members the Lord has given to His Body. In the co-workers' usage, the minister of the age is not just a person serving according to the vision of the age; he is the person the Lord uses to bring the vision of the age to His church, the person through whom the recovery of the vision advances. ... in every age there is a particular vision. This vision is released not through many persons but through one person who is the minister of that age. There is the vision of the age, and the one who receives this vision becomes the minister of the age. All the others who are with him are led through this one, and the vision is released to them. Then, all together, they speak out this one vision according to the leading of the one to whom the Lord has chosen to give the vision of the age. (Benson Phillips, "The Content of the Vision of the Age", The Ministry Magazine, August 2003, vol. 7, no. 6, p. 34) This understanding matches Brother Lee's word on the vision of the age given in 1986. On pages 31 through 36 of The Vision of the Age, Brother Lee gave a brief sketch of the Old Testament showing that in every age there was a unique vision released through one man, starting from Adam and continuing through Abel, Enosh, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, etc. He further demonstrated the same principle in the New Testament record of John the Baptist, the Lord Jesus, Peter, and Paul. He then applied the same principle to the history of the Lord's recovery beginning from the time of Martin Luther: ...At the time of the Reformation in the 1520s, when Luther was raised up, anyone who wanted to serve under a vision had to join himself to Luther. In the seventeenth century, anyone who wanted to serve under a vision had to join himself to Madame Guyon. In the eighteenth century, anyone who wanted to serve under a vision had to join himself to Zinzendorf. Even John Wesley received help from Zinzendorf. In the nineteenth century, J. N. Darby took the lead among the Brethren, and the vision was with him. In the twentieth century, the vision came to us. ( The Vision of the Age , p. 27) The author of "On 'The Ministry of the Age' and 'The Minister of the Age': What did Watchman Nee Teach?" completely ignores Brother Lee's fellowship in The Vision of the Age , as well as all of Brother Lee's speaking on the uniqueness of Watchman Nee's ministry. It appears to be his intent to pit Brother Nee against Brother Lee based on Brother Nee's use of an indefinite article. This is indefensible in just the same way it is to argue that "a life-giving Spirit" in 1 Corinthians 15:45b does not refer to the Spirit in the Godhead. 1 It is noteworthy that in Brother Nee's identification of Luther as "a minister of the age" and of Darby as "a minister of the age," there is no overlap and no one else identified as a minister of their respective ages, even though there were many others serving and speaking contemporaneously with them. The point is that a minister of the age brings forth the vision of the age to govern the living and service of God's people in that age. The release of the vision of the age is the sounding of the one trumpet to lead the Lord's people. The sounding of this trumpet must be unique and the one taking the lead to sound the trumpet is the minister of the age. ...God would not send out trumpeters to sound different trumpets for His army to fight the battle (1 Cor. 14:8; Num. 10:9; Judg. 7:18). This would be confusion. God is wiser than this. He will raise up only one trumpeter to sound one calling, one voice, so that His people on the earth can march on. ( The Testimony of Jesus , p. 99) Why is this important? It is more than mere semantics. To designate a certain person as a "minister of the age" is to say that he is the person through whom the Lord's up-to-date vision is being or has been released. As a result, that person and the vision released through him exercise a leadership role in advancing the Lord's move in His recovery. The actual leadership in the Lord's recovery rests not so much in a person, but more in a governing vision. Since we have the up-to-date and ultimate vision, we should closely follow after it. We are absolutely not following a man; rather, we are following a vision. It is grossly wrong to say that we are following a certain person. We are following a vision that belongs to the present age. It is God's consummate vision. ( The Vision of the Age , p. 49) Therefore, you are not following a man; rather, you are standing with the Lord's ministry. You are following a vision, a vision that matches the age, a vision that inherits all that was in the past and a vision that is all-inclusive. It is up to date, and yet it builds on the past. If you remain in the book of Acts, you may have inherited everything prior to that time, but you are not up to date. Today as we stand here and ponder the revelations unveiled in the Lord's recovery, as we read the publications that are released among us, we can see that they cover everything from the church to God's economy to the New Jerusalem in the new heaven and new earth. This is a bountiful and all-sufficient vision. If you remain in this vision, you are serving according to the vision. If you are not in this vision, you could still be an Apollos, expounding the Scriptures in a powerful way; you could still be a Barnabas, visiting the churches; you could still be a James, serving piously; and you could even be a Peter, who served as the leading apostle. However, you would not be in the vision. ( The Vision of the Age , pp. 52-53) It seems that those who seek to designate "many different ministers of the age" are seeking to establish their own credentials to lead the Lord's recovery in a direction different from the one delivered to us by Brother Nee and Brother Lee as the vision of the age. Actually, the dissenting ones have departed from this vision. One of the dissenting ones openly advocates returning to the model of the Reformation, a time when there were many different voices with different teachings contending with one another. ...Eventually the Lord raised up Martin Luther, along with many others of his generation. They might have held different views on some matters, but they complemented one another in the same way that Peter, Paul, and John had. (Frank Lin, "God Speaking in Many Portions and in Many Ways," Fellowship Journal, vol. 4, no. 7) This one is willing to let history sort out the truth. To say this is to no longer stand on the shoulders of those who have gone before, but rather to abandon what the Lord has recovered among us of the practical oneness of the Body of Christ and to return to a pattern that has resulted in division after division. From as early as the first century, the failure of the church and even of the workers to enter into the vision of the age released through Paul became the cause of a general falling away and of division in the Body of Christ. This pattern has been repeated again and again throughout church history. Why is it that there were divisions even from the time while the apostles, including Paul and John, were still here on this earth? Divisions began to take place from the last part of the first century and have continued to take place until the present century. There have been divisions after divisions, which have caused all kinds of confusion. What is the reason for all these divisions? They all came about simply because of different so-called ministries... We need to be very clear that the foundation of all the denominations and the factor that produces each denomination are their different ministries. If all the Christians today would be willing for the Lord to take away their different ministries, they would all be one. The basic factor of all the divisions, their very root, is different ministries.... ( Elders' Training, Book 1: The Ministry of the New Testament , p. 14) We need to see this principle throughout the entire Christian era. All the troubles, divisions, and confusions came from the one source of the tolerance of different ministries. Many Christian teachers have known the peril of different ministries; nevertheless, they have tolerated them. There has been a tolerance of different ministries. In the Lord's recovery, for the long run, we should not believe that this kind of creeping in of the different ministries would never take place. Rather, we must be on the alert. Such a peril is ahead of us. If we are not watchful, if we are careless, in one way or another the enemy would creepingly use some means, some ways, to bring in different ministries. Such a thing would end the Lord's recovery. ( Elders' Training, Book 1: The Ministry of the New Testament , p. 16) Nevertheless, all of us need to realize that we are in the Lord's recovery. The first characteristic of the Lord's recovery is oneness. Once we lose the oneness, we are through. If we lose the oneness, we are no longer the Lord's recovery. Therefore, we need to see that there is a peril of different teachings and different opinions damaging the oneness. ( Elders' Training, Book 1: The Ministry of the New Testament , p. 29) There is no doubt that Brother Lee considered Watchman Nee to be the minister of the age. Brother Lee's concluding word in his biography of Watchman Nee says: __________________ Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.

11-08-2018, 07:45 AM	#20
awareness Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 8,064	Re: MOTA - Lurkers Allowed! Thanks for this. There's lot's to dig into. In doing so I found this concerning Hong Xiuquan : He was influenced by a book, Good Words to Admonish the Age (by Liang Fa, 1832). Sound familiar? Thanks again whoever you are. Join up. I'd like to hear more from you. __________________ Cults: My brain will always be there for you. Thinking. So you don't have to. There's a serpent in every paradise.

11-08-2018, 08:44 AM	#21
Weighingin Member Join Date: Aug 2018 Posts: 95	Re: MOTA - Lurkers Allowed! This shows that many people have been killed either directly by or as a result of actions by some who claimed to be of Jesus Christ. So not only the RCC caused the deaths of many real believers in trying to eliminate “heresies.”