Need fellowship here

[byHismercy]

Hi saints,

I wanted to put a question out to the body and see if the Lord could shine on this question I have.

I've been following the Chris Watts case and the story fills my heart for compassion for his wife and kids, and their family members, extended. Even the perpetrator of this crime has my pity. I thought to pray for his salvation but considering his wife, and suspecting she may not have known Jesus as her savior, considering where she may be, stopped me. I believe Jesus loves Chris too, so I will pray for his salvation, against my wishes.

All this considered, my recognition now is in my own lack. Lack of His love, lack of (enough) compassion, lack of mercy for every one, which is what He has for us, what He displayed on the cross. Just makes me understand my condition is sort of pitiful.....

My question is, what does the word tell us or show us regarding increasing our hearts toward others? Our love toward others? When we come up lacking, is there any practical way to get more love for others, any instruction God gives us?

Loving our neighbor comes 2nd only after His command to love Him....so I know how important this is to the Lord....aside from asking Him for increased love or enlarging my heart....is there any scripture anyone can suggest I look to? Thanks for anything you throw my way.....

Humbled before Him,
byHismercy

[aron]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

My question is, what does the word tell us or show us regarding increasing our hearts toward others? Our love toward others? When we come up lacking, is there any practical way to get more love for others, any instruction God gives us?

There are different ways to look at the same truth. My way is this: as soon as you think about yourself, your heart, your love (or lack thereof) you fail. The Bible is about Jesus: his love, his heart, his faith, his redeeming act on Calvary.

The LSM assemblies have mis-aimed, in getting people to focus on their own selfish "enjoyment", or "making it", or "building the Body" or whatnot. No wonder that they grow weary and dim.

When you see his love to the Father, his hope, his struggle, his patient endurance, and yes, his love towards his neighbour (Peter, John, Paul, and all of us), everything else just fades away. Jesus said, "These things were written about me". Either he was a crank and a megalomaniac or he was Messiah. Take your pick.

Again I appeal to scripture: "He (the Father) rescued me (the Son) because he delighted in me". Know what Witness Lee saw there? Nothing of value. "Move along, folks. Nothing to see here. We've got a church to build." A church was indeed built but it was lacking love because it often came to scripture but missed Jesus.

To see the Son's faith and obedience, up to and including the death of the cross, to see the Father's delight, and validation by raising this Jesus and giving him glory - what else is there? All other possible realities flow from this singularity. There is nothing else. This was Peter's vision on Pentecost and I daresay nothing has changed from that moment to this.

People tell me, "What about the epistles? What about the Revelation of John? What about Ignatius and Augustine and Luther?" I reply, look at what happened to John when he viewed the Singularity in Revelation 1:17. Again I say, there is nothing else. Our hearts don't have enough room for such love. Just gaze on this One, absorb him.

I know that last line sounds a lot like WL, except he dismissed scripture and missed Jesus Christ. Instead we got, God's Move and the Body.

[ZNPaaneah]

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

We "show ourselves to be disciples" by bearing fruit. You learn to be a farmer by farming, you learn to be a disciple by discipling. If you realize you are short on love, simply ask. We have a covenant with the Lord, as long as we are in His word, walking in Christ, you can ask for whatever you need and it will be given to you.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

The LSM assemblies have mis-aimed, in getting people to focus on their own selfish "enjoyment", or "making it", or "building the Body" or whatnot. No wonder that they grow weary ...

The LSM assemblies do appreciate God's love: weekly they gather and sing songs like, "The love of God, so rich and pure, so measureless and strong; it shall evermore endure the saints' and angels' song". Every Sunday morning they remember God's love in Jesus Christ for about 25 minutes. The other 6 days, 23 hours, and 35 minutes they focus on other things.

And even those few moments are marred by, "You were PRAW-cessed for our en-JOYY-ment!!" &c

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.

We "show ourselves to be disciples" by bearing fruit. You learn to be a farmer by farming, you learn to be a disciple by discipling. If you realize you are short on love, simply ask. We have a covenant with the Lord, as long as we are in His word, walking in Christ, you can ask for whatever you need and it will be given to you.

This has been my prayer all week, ZNP. I have faith in His type of love, His purity of love, and His endurance of, and His faithfulness to His word....He promised to transform us to His image as we gaze at Him as a mirror....

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by aron

There are different ways to look at the same truth. My way is this: as soon as you think about yourself, your heart, your love (or lack thereof) you fail. The Bible is about Jesus: his love, his heart, his faith, his redeeming act on Calvary.

The LSM assemblies have mis-aimed, in getting people to focus on their own selfish "enjoyment", or "making it", or "building the Body" or whatnot. No wonder that they grow weary and dim.

When you see his love to the Father, his hope, his struggle, his patient endurance, and yes, his love towards his neighbour (Peter, John, Paul, and all of us), everything else just fades away. Jesus said, "These things were written about me". Either he was a crank and a megalomaniac or he was Messiah. Take your pick.

Again I appeal to scripture: "He (the Father) rescued me (the Son) because he delighted in me". Know what Witness Lee saw there? Nothing of value. "Move along, folks. Nothing to see here. We've got a church to build." A church was indeed built but it was lacking love because it often came to scripture but missed Jesus.

To see the Son's faith and obedience, up to and including the death of the cross, to see the Father's delight, and validation by raising this Jesus and giving him glory - what else is there? All other possible realities flow from this singularity. There is nothing else. This was Peter's vision on Pentecost and I daresay nothing has changed from that moment to this.

People tell me, "What about the epistles? What about the Revelation of John? What about Ignatius and Augustine and Luther?" I reply, look at what happened to John when he viewed the Singularity in Revelation 1:17. Again I say, there is nothing else. Our hearts don't have enough room for such love. Just gaze on this One, absorb him.

I know that last line sounds a lot like WL, except he dismissed scripture and missed Jesus Christ. Instead we got, God's Move and the Body.

I think there is a fatal flaw in looking to the 'proper ground' doctrine, Aron. How can we look away unto Jesus if you are staring at your feet, so to speak. I just can't help but think this has a disastrous spiritual consequence. I agree with you, we must gaze on this One, Jesus. We must be fixed on His face.

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

He promised to transform us to His image as we gaze at Him as a mirror....

Knowing this is a blessing. But it is only the first blessing.

Our covenant with God also includes "I will make of thee a great nation", and more to your initial question He also promised "I will bless thee", and "make thy name great", and ultimately that you "would be a blessing".

[aron]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

Our covenant with God also includes "I will make of thee a great nation", and more ..

The "I" of "I will make of thee a great nation" is God. We shouldn't presume to make ourselves great. Jesus taught this, repeatedly.

The Great Harlot made herself great; God did not.

Our responsibility is to gaze; God's job is to make the great nation.

"The LORD has done this - it is marvelous in our sight."

[JB482]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

I think there is a fatal flaw in looking to the 'proper ground' doctrine, Aron. How can we look away unto Jesus if you are staring at your feet, so to speak. I just can't help but think this has a disastrous spiritual consequence. I agree with you, we must gaze on this One, Jesus. We must be fixed on His face.

Beholding and reflecting the face of Jesus Christ! Amen

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by aron

The "I" of "I will make of thee a great nation" is God. We shouldn't presume to make ourselves great. Jesus taught this, repeatedly.

The Great Harlot made herself great; God did not.

Our responsibility is to gaze; God's job is to make the great nation.

"The LORD has done this - it is marvelous in our sight."

We are touching on God's covenant and entering into this covenant is equivalent to entering into God's rest -- which is part of the covenant.

Which of course is another way of saying that.

[aron]

Originally Posted by JB482

Beholding and reflecting the face of Jesus Christ! Amen

Here's what I posted recently on beholding the face of Jesus Christ. If you want to see Christ, hang out with those who are seeking His face. The LSM system tried to deny that basic Christian right. "We have right to the tree of Life".

Originally Posted by aron

My point is this: if you want to see the face of Christ, read the works of those who can help you see. Even those who don't agree with you, and with whom you don't agree. ... Again I say this is what Watchman Nee did - he availed himself of disparate sources. He didn't have to agree with everything. But he was willing to use different materials to help him see Christ.

Contrast this to the "sickbed theology" of LSM, who says, if any of their flock reads from other sources, they might get 'poisoned' spiritually. What an admission of weakness!

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by aron

Here's what I posted recently on beholding the face of Jesus Christ. If you want to see Christ, hang out with those who are seeking His face. The LSM system tried to deny that basic Christian right. "We have right to the tree of Life".

And not just our right to fellowship or learn from all saints, but even which bible.....just before I left (translate that chucked out of) the LC, a sister was disgusted to learn I was reading from the KJV bible. She could not understand why I would read from THAT version....we have such a TREASURE in the footnotes....(ReC version).....when I explained the large print was better for me (one of other reasons I have) she tried her best to sell me the Recovery version large print. It was too late. I had started to smell something very fishy, as we had been culled from the herd.

Praise Jesus, saints....our freedom in Christ is the REAL kind. I love the KJV! I love all the believers! He does that in me.

byHismercy

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by aron

Here's what I posted recently on beholding the face of Jesus Christ. If you want to see Christ, hang out with those who are seeking His face. The LSM system tried to deny that basic Christian right. "We have right to the tree of Life".

I love this encouragement, Aron....it rings true because it lines up with His word to us

[Nell]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

...I've been following the Chris Watts case and the story fills my heart for compassion for his wife and kids, and their family members, extended. Even the perpetrator of this crime has my pity. I thought to pray for his salvation but considering his wife, and suspecting she may not have known Jesus as her savior, considering where she may be, stopped me. I believe Jesus loves Chris too, so I will pray for his salvation, against my wishes. ...

My question is, what does the word tell us or show us regarding increasing our hearts toward others? Our love toward others? When we come up lacking, is there any practical way to get more love for others, any instruction God gives us?

byHismercy ...

Your question about love was in the context of Chris Watts.

"The Watts family homicides occurred on the early morning of August 13, 2018, when Chris Watts murdered his pregnant wife Shanann Watts and their daughters Bella, 4, and Celeste, 3, in their Frederick, Colorado, home. Chris Watts pleaded guilty on November 6, 2018, to multiple counts of first-degree murder."

Here's another equally important question: What does the Word tell us or show us regarding righteousness, justice, wickedness and grossly horrific sin? From these verses we can see what the Lord loves: righteousness. It seems that love, righteousness, judgment and justice all go together. God is Holy. God IS love. I believe God's love, godly love, does not tolerate unrighteousness, wickedness, lawlessness...sin. Rather, God's love judged sin. I also believe this is why this world is in the mess that it's in.

Even 1 Cor. 13 sets conditions for love which stipulates conditions on evil and truth.

5 It (Love) does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Psalm 11:7 For the righteous Lord loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

Jeremiah 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

We have a Righteous Judge who judges the sinful behavior of all, including Chris Watts. God gave his Son as a sacrifice for sin. This is the context I see for the behavior of Chris Watts. God loves the sinner, but hates their sin. I think such matters as righteousness, justice and judgment deserve equal consideration with Christian love of others, including Chris Watts.

Nell

[aron]

Originally Posted by Nell

I think such matters as righteousness, justice and judgment deserve equal consideration with Christian love of others, including Chris Watts.

You quoted 1 Cor 13:5, which says that love keeps no record of wrongs. Yet when we speak of judgment it seems God does keep a record of wrongs.

So then this "no record" contingent is on repentance?

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by Nell

Your question about love was in the context of Chris Watts.

"The Watts family homicides occurred on the early morning of August 13, 2018, when Chris Watts murdered his pregnant wife Shanann Watts and their daughters Bella, 4, and Celeste, 3, in their Frederick, Colorado, home. Chris Watts pleaded guilty on November 6, 2018, to multiple counts of first-degree murder."

Here's another equally important question: What does the Word tell us or show us regarding righteousness, justice, wickedness and grossly horrific sin? From these verses we can see what the Lord loves: righteousness. It seems that love, righteousness, judgment and justice all go together. God is Holy. God IS love. I believe God's love, godly love, does not tolerate unrighteousness, wickedness, lawlessness...sin. Rather, God's love judged sin. I also believe this is why this world is in the mess that it's in.

Even 1 Cor. 13 sets conditions for love which stipulates conditions on evil and truth.

5 It (Love) does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

Psalm 11:7 For the righteous Lord loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

Jeremiah 23:5 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

We have a Righteous Judge who judges the sinful behavior of all, including Chris Watts. God gave his Son as a sacrifice for sin. This is the context I see for the behavior of Chris Watts. God loves the sinner, but hates their sin. I think such matters as righteousness, justice and judgment deserve equal consideration with Christian love of others, including Chris Watts.

Nell

Amen Nell. This is where speaking the truth in love comes in. Recently I was happy to see in the word that an unbalanced scale is an abomination to the Lord. He is so righteous He cannot tolerate such unbalance. Such as the kind we have right now....government shutdown, people on furlough, like my husband. For the uninitiated, furlough means you must be at work, but your paychecks cease. I cannot think of a more unbalanced scale. Please pray for our family and all the other US Customs employees who must sustain homes and families without their paycheck, and equally without the freedom to walk away and find another income. Our family is a one income family because we choose to homeschool our children.....and this furlough situation is not sustainable for long....please pray for us all, saints.

Proverbs 11:1 A false balance is abomination to the Lord: but a just weight is His delight.

Back to speaking the truth in love, may I be found doing so for the rest of my days, unto God, the righteous.

Edit to add...I refuse to believe our supply comes from this government job! As all good gifts come directly from the hand of my Savior Jesus.

[aron]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

furlough means you must be at work, but your paychecks cease. I cannot think of a more unbalanced scale. Please pray for our family and all the other US Customs employees who must sustain homes and families without their paycheck, and equally without the freedom to walk away and find another income.

Incredible story. Lord have mercy on the U.S. government employees and their families.

Some years ago my neighbour ran over his dog. I went into the stream-bed where the poor broken creature had crawled midst the rocks, and just as I reached it, my father called out, "Don't touch it! It will bite you!"

The animal, formerly docile, was wild with pain. I'll never forget its eyes, its heaving side and rasping breath. To me, that's a depiction of most of us, most of the time: crushed, driven wild by guilty fear and shame and anger, by forces we can't see or comprehend. All we can see is wreckage behind as we feel agony within. All's lost, and the end is at hand.

Such a man hung on a cross once; he looked over at Jesus and said, "Remember me when you come into your kingdom." If such men can be redeemed, then so can I, so can we all.

This is truly the Saviour of the world (John 4:42; 1 John 4:14); and now has come the hour of salvation (2 Cor 6:2; Rom 13:11).

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by aron

Incredible story. Lord have mercy on the U.S. government employees and their families.

Some years ago my neighbour ran over his dog. I went into the stream-bed where the poor broken creature had crawled midst the rocks, and just as I reached it, my father called out, "Don't touch it! It will bite you!"

The animal, formerly docile, was wild with pain. I'll never forget its eyes, its heaving side and rasping breath. To me, that's a depiction of most of us, most of the time: crushed, driven wild by guilty fear and shame and anger, by forces we can't see or comprehend. All we can see is wreckage behind as we feel agony within. All's lost, and the end is at hand.

Such a man hung on a cross once; he looked over at Jesus and said, "Remember me when you come into your kingdom." If such men can be redeemed, then so can I, so can we all.

This is truly the Saviour of the world (John 4:42; 1 John 4:14); and now has come the hour of salvation (2 Cor 6:2; Rom 13:11).

Yes, that man on the cross next to Jesus was a first hand witness/receiver of the greatest mercy ever bestowed on mankind. What a testimony to us all. I am glad that I am under the sovereignty of such a merciful Father. No matter what comes of this government shut down, we can safely trust in the Lord for our future, our needs, shelter, supply.....we will not be put to shame for trusting in Him. I look forward to witness what the Lord works out. These furloughs are my litmus test, personally. He is able in His wisdom to show me where I am, spiritually. Am I resting in Christ Jesus? If I was, do I remain there? If I am not, how do I get there, where I belong? *sigh. I want Him to lead me there. I want to be found there by Him.

byHismercy

[HERn]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Hi saints,

I wanted to put a question out to the body and see if the Lord could shine on this question I have.

I've been following the Chris Watts case and the story fills my heart for compassion for his wife and kids, and their family members, extended. Even the perpetrator of this crime has my pity. I thought to pray for his salvation but considering his wife, and suspecting she may not have known Jesus as her savior, considering where she may be, stopped me. I believe Jesus loves Chris too, so I will pray for his salvation, against my wishes.

All this considered, my recognition now is in my own lack. Lack of His love, lack of (enough) compassion, lack of mercy for every one, which is what He has for us, what He displayed on the cross. Just makes me understand my condition is sort of pitiful.....

My question is, what does the word tell us or show us regarding increasing our hearts toward others? Our love toward others? When we come up lacking, is there any practical way to get more love for others, any instruction God gives us?

Loving our neighbor comes 2nd only after His command to love Him....so I know how important this is to the Lord....aside from asking Him for increased love or enlarging my heart....is there any scripture anyone can suggest I look to? Thanks for anything you throw my way.....

Humbled before Him,
byHismercy

I think we who realize that we have a lack in love, mercy, grace, and compassion are just the ones to whom our Great Physician applies the needed medicine to heal the ones who acknowledge that they are sick. Our Lord says God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by HERn

I think we who realize that we have a lack in love, mercy, grace, and compassion are just the ones to whom our Great Physician applies the needed medicine to heal the ones who acknowledge that they are sick. Our Lord says God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble.

Your reply is not in question.

The context, as you have quoted, is Chris Watts and his crimes against his family and indeed against society. What about Chris Watts? In which category do you perceive Chris Watts? Proud or humble? Has Chris Watts realized his lack/s? Has he acknowledged that he is sick?

Chris Watts represents sin, lawlessness, depraivity...how is this not part of the discussion on "love"? "We who realize we have a lack of love" should also realize we may lack perspective on righteousness and justice as God's mandate on the people he redeemed.

Nell

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

Amen Nell. This is where speaking the truth in love comes in. Recently I was happy to see in the word that an unbalanced scale is an abomination to the Lord. He is so righteous He cannot tolerate such unbalance. Such as the kind we have right now....government shutdown, people on furlough, like my husband. For the uninitiated, furlough means you must be at work, but your paychecks cease. I cannot think of a more unbalanced scale. Please pray for our family and all the other US Customs employees who must sustain homes and families without their paycheck, and equally without the freedom to walk away and find another income. Our family is a one income family because we choose to homeschool our children.....and this furlough situation is not sustainable for long....please pray for us all, saints.

Proverbs 11:1 A false balance is abomination to the Lord: but a just weight is His delight.

Back to speaking the truth in love, may I be found doing so for the rest of my days, unto God, the righteous.

Edit to add...I refuse to believe our supply comes from this government job! As all good gifts come directly from the hand of my Savior Jesus.

VERIFY: Yes, furloughed government contractors are eligible for unemployment during the government shutdown
States control how much to pay out and for how long

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/l...0-a3ce8593c68d

[HERn]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

VERIFY: Yes, furloughed government contractors are eligible for unemployment during the government shutdown
States control how much to pay out and for how long

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/l...0-a3ce8593c68d

From what I understand there are two groups of people negatively affected by the shutdown; furloughed employees who are not allowed to work and are not payed, and then another group that is required to work but are not payed until the shutdown is over. The second situation seems more unrighteous than the first.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Nell

Your reply is not in question.

The context, as you have quoted, is Chris Watts and his crimes against his family and indeed against society. What about Chris Watts? In which category do you perceive Chris Watts? Proud or humble? Has Chris Watts realized his lack/s? Has he acknowledged that he is sick?

Chris Watts represents sin, lawlessness, depraivity...how is this not part of the discussion on "love"? "We who realize we have a lack of love" should also realize we may lack perspective on righteousness and justice as God's mandate on the people he redeemed.

Nell

His eternal soul is in the hands of almighty God, while his ephemeral body is in the hands of the state government. His repentance may bring forgiveness from God, but the state must enforce the law and apply punishment. This is the way it should be.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by ZNPaaneah

VERIFY: Yes, furloughed government contractors are eligible for unemployment during the government shutdown
States control how much to pay out and for how long

https://www.wusa9.com/article/news/l...0-a3ce8593c68d

Wow, ZNP thank you. I will see if I can verify this. I certainly never heard of until now.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by HERn

From what I understand there are two groups of people negatively affected by the shutdown; furloughed employees who are not allowed to work and are not payed, and then another group that is required to work but are not payed until the shutdown is over. The second situation seems more unrighteous than the first.

This is correct....we know folks in both situations. My husband must work, but his pay is suspended until the government starts operations. I read that the shutdown is affecting 25% of all government employees, either way.

I read the 'Verify' article and the relief pay is only available to those who have an official notice of a suspension or lay off of actual work. So not for our case or any officers who are still at work. It is very unrighteous indeed, however, I don't know which situation is worse.

We are really in a pickle, my family. Please pray over us, saints.

***my husband relocated his job to another state, to bless me and the kids, and get us further away from the LC here

***me and the kids stayed here in order to bless my husband, who wanted to subdivide our property before we sell it

***we currently pay for two 'homes', one in each state, against my better judgment, but out of my wish to be obedient to my head.

***we cannot list our home for sale because the city manager seems to be sitting on his hands instead of getting anything done towards the subdivision

***now without a paycheck, indefinitely

If you have the peace of Christ, please lift us up to Him in prayer!
Thank you all for your care,
byHismercy

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by HERn

His eternal soul is in the hands of almighty God, while his ephemeral body is in the hands of the state government. His repentance may bring forgiveness from God, but the state must enforce the law and apply punishment. This is the way it should be.

I agree. And I did pray for his salvation. And you are right, HERn, my post was not so much about Chris Watts but the condition I see in myself reflecting on praying for this person. I have been asking God consistently for more love and an enlarged heart. I trust His will for us, that we would love one another, as He displayed by laying down His life for us. He said we should lay down our life for our brethren. And regarding others, that we love our neighbor. I believe the Lord will answer my prayer because it lines up with His will.

And Nell, I see the wickedness and unrighteousness in Watts' person, and crime.....the wickedness of the whole world is on display for all to see in this age. I believe even a Chris Watts can be touched by Jesus and truly repent, and be saved. He is the sickest of the sick, when it comes to sin. But Gods word says if we hate a brother in our heart, we are as murderers. My heart is as wicked as the rest! Where would I be without the mercy of Christ Jesus and the word of God. I would be going straight to hell, as many others.

[HERn]

Originally Posted by byHismercy

This is correct....we know folks in both situations. My husband must work, but his pay is suspended until the government starts operations. I read that the shutdown is affecting 25% of all government employees, either way.

I read the 'Verify' article and the relief pay is only available to those who have an official notice of a suspension or lay off of actual work. So not for our case or any officers who are still at work. It is very unrighteous indeed, however, I don't know which situation is worse.

We are really in a pickle, my family. Please pray over us, saints.

***my husband relocated his job to another state, to bless me and the kids, and get us further away from the LC here

***me and the kids stayed here in order to bless my husband, who wanted to subdivide our property before we sell it

***we currently pay for two 'homes', one in each state, against my better judgment, but out of my wish to be obedient to my head.

***we cannot list our home for sale because the city manager seems to be sitting on his hands instead of getting anything done towards the subdivision

***now without a paycheck, indefinitely

If you have the peace of Christ, please lift us up to Him in prayer!
Thank you all for your care,
byHismercy

Dear Sister; I dont think there are any human words that can take away the fear, worry, and concern that you feel, but if you listen closley I think you will hear your heavenly Father telling you that He has this, knows all your suffering, is with you until the end of the age, and will take care of you and your family. Find a Christian sister you can pray and grieve with and your burden will be lighter.

[byHismercy]

Originally Posted by HERn

Dear Sister; I dont think there are any human words that can take away the fear, worry, and concern that you feel, but if you listen closley I think you will hear your heavenly Father telling you that He has this, knows all your suffering, is with you until the end of the age, and will take care of you and your family. Find a Christian sister you can pray and grieve with and your burden will be lighter.

Thank you, brother. All my hope is on Jesus. He brought me a sister who I pray with....this through a craigslist ad I placed prepping for the move. She just adopted me. No better way to put it. But then, that is what she does. She and her husband raised 14 children all told.
Mostly adoptees. We are in regular contact and she is one of the few who has no weirdness about praying with a sister in Christ (maybe that is only my personal experience). She loves the Lord Jesus and I love her, I am so thankful for her.

I truly believe He is orchestrating our relocation....this is a testimony I want to share here, but I am waiting for it to play out. So I do feel He has us...

This human experience is such a roller coaster. Fear, then peace, rest, then back down into fear. I don't care. I want to testify how faithful His love is towards us, and praise His name forever. Even if we lose everything. I just want to be found trusting in Him.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by aron

You quoted 1 Cor 13:5, which says that love keeps no record of wrongs. Yet when we speak of judgment it seems God does keep a record of wrongs.

So then this "no record" contingent is on repentance?

aron, I've been thinking about this post and your question for a while. I don't have an answer but I have a response and more questions.

There are natural negative consequences of our sinful actions (e.g., sex outside monogamy/marriage could lead to STDs, a constantly explosive temper could lead to a heart attack, etc), and then there is actual judgment of God that doesn't follow logically from the sin (God opening up a sinkhole and swallowing you up because of your explosive temper, for a poor example).

A young kid steals a 6-pack of beer and drinks it all.....the consequence is the raging headache and being sick to their stomach, the judgment is the parental spanking and grounding. But in that situation there can also be forgiveness. So it seems consequence, judgment, and forgiveness are not mutually exclusive and can all occur without being contradictory.

That doesn't touch much on your question, but I wanted to say that much to differentiate between consequences and judgment so I could ask this question: Is there any evidence that God ever judges us in the age of grace? I don't know the answer.

(As an aside, an older LC sister told me very confidently one time that the Challenger explosion was God's judgment because we were being too bold and brazen in trying to explore the universe. I do not agree.)

I emailed a pastor something along the lines of your "is no record contingent on repentance" question recently, except replace "no record" with "forgiveness".....which to me are similar or the same. (Once you or God forgives a wrong it is taken off "the record"). Based on the message the pastor had given, it seemed like he was saying that as Christians we are called to forgive others, even when they don't repent or show remorse or ask for forgiveness. I can comprehend that for small offenses, but when people really betray/backstab/lie etc and don't care that they've gutted you, I personally have an almost impossible time forgiving an offense that reaches a certain magnitude that remains unrepented for.

Since this is something I struggle with a lot (possibly the most) my question to the pastor was essentially, how can we be called to forgive others (take it "off the record") to this extent when God only takes off the record what we've repented and confessed? It seems like we are being held to a higher standard than God.

His response (this was just a brief email exchange, not an in depth dissertation) was that if forgiveness is dependent on us identifying every single one of our sins, confessing, and repenting, then we would be without hope. How many sins have we committed that we don't even know about! But our God is faithful to forgive even the ones we aren't aware of. However, if we are aware of sin, then it is certainly on us to confess and repent.

This answer seems consistent with my experience - how many negative thoughts do we have every day? How many times are we a bit short with people, how many times are our thoughts not where they should be, how many times do we wish we had what our neighbor has, etc, etc, etc? There is no possible way to know, keep track of, remember, or confess all those things. But if God doesn't make us aware of them, how can we be held to repent of them and have them taken off the record? But, as far as I know, God doesn't judge us for these things, or else we would seriously have no hope. I know these are much smaller sins than the one in the OP.

So maybe "no record" is contingent upon repentance of what God requires you repent of? I don't know. Just throwing thoughts out there.

Trapped

[aron]

Originally Posted by Trapped

I wanted to say that much to differentiate between consequences and judgment so I could ask this question: Is there any evidence that God ever judges us in the age of grace? I don't know the answer....I have an almost impossible time forgiving ..

There are two quite different, yet quite related subjects here. One is love and the other is the removal of the record of sin.

Here I define love operationally, as the willingness and even desire to show and do good to the 'other', even when this may not be immediately reciprocated. Even while we were yet sinners, God showed love to us in sending His Only-Begotten Son; this is love, that Christ laid down his life for us. And so forth. Love isn't just a feeling; it does, it acts. And in action it forgives. Again, 1 Cor 13 is a nearly unparalleled exposition on this multifarious operation of love.

Now, to the removal of the record: this seems to me to be based on cooperation. Jesus told the repentant criminal that "this day you will be with me in paradise"; he didn't invite them both. One of the criminals mocked him, and subsequently stayed behind. The key seems to be willingness; willingness to repent, and to forgive. (When they asked if he would heal, Jesus replied, "I am willing." [Luke 5:11-13] … Jesus is willing; are we?) Jesus taught this prayer, "Forgive us our trespasses, even as we forgive..."; he also taught, "If you do not forgive, neither will your Father in heaven forgive you".

To me it seems clear: "as you do to others, it will be done to you"... we're willing to forgive, or we have no ground with God for the blood of Christ to cleanse from every sin... even though God loves, the record will remain. We forgive others, even those who "don't show much promise", otherwise God isn't willing to forgive us. Everything depends on our willingness to forgive the 'other' and seek rapprochement.

As to consequence, both criminals died. But one went to paradise with the King. "Remember me, when you come into your kingdom."

[Nell]

I don’t think there is a formula to follow like an if/then statement that insures all the biblical bases are covered. Further, we cannot force someone else to repent. We are responsible for our own obedience, not the obedience of others. Even though the sins of others may be obvious and aggregious, their response is not up to us.

I believe this is what Matthew 18 is all about:
15 Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother.
16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.
17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.

This is going the distance in conflict resolution resolution in the church. If the sinning brother refuses to hear the church, your responsibility toward them is over. Walk away. The failure to practice Matt. 18 in the church today is monumental, as is the failure to practice Matt. 5:

23 “Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother or sister has something against you, 24 leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to them; then come and offer your gift.

This is where walking by faith is important. We can’t “figure out” the Bible, or “figure out” God. We can only walk with Him by faith, listen to Him, talk to Him and obey Him and His Word...for ourselves.

Nell

[Drake]

Originally Posted by aron

Such a man hung on a cross once; he looked over at Jesus and said, "Remember me when you come into your kingdom." If such men can be redeemed, then so can I, so can we all.

VERY well said, aron.

Drake

[Drake]

Originally Posted by Nell

I don’t think there is a formula to follow like an if/then statement that insures all the biblical bases are covered. Further, we cannot force someone else to repent. We are responsible for our own obedience, not the obedience of others. Even though the sins of others may be obvious and aggregious, their response is not up to us.

I agree with much of what Nell expresses here... and though it is technically accurate yet it is not complete. By that I mean, in the manner and to the extent we apply Matthew 18:15-17 and "walk away", then in the same way we must also apply Matthew 18: 21-22:

"The Peter came and said to Him,Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to seven times? Jesus said to him, I do not say to you, Up to seven times, but, Up to seventy times seven."

If there is a "distance" then the Lord defined it as forgiving your brother 490 times.... not once, twice, or seven as Peter hoped, but more than you can keep track of.

Along this same line, recently, I was studying the letter delivered to Laodicea (Rev 3:14-22) and realized that though the Lord severely rebuked the church there, warned that He was about to spew them (and eventually did) out of His mouth, and though He was standing OUTSIDE the door of the church in Laodicea knocking for ANYONE to open the door to dine with Him, and yet, in spite of that rejection of Him, He says to that church:

"As many as I love I reprove and discipline..."

In that, I also realized something about myself. My sentiment needs to be whatever His sentiment is. If He is unhappy about something then how can I be happy about the same thing? If He is outside the church in Laodicea then how can I be satisfied to stay inside? And though eager in many ways to be wherever He resides and join with Him in His sentiment .... yet, do I also love as He loves? Do I love those believers that reject the Lord and love them as He loves them? His heart is without compare and I realized, speaking for myself, that it is all too easy for me to get technical (by the letter) about biblical things and forget the real and most important thing... joining with Lord in His sentiments and in the spirit of them toward fellow believers.. not only as pertains to righteousness, to warning, to reproof, and with discipline, but also in love.

Drake

[ZNPaaneah]

Originally Posted by Drake

In that, I also realized something about myself. My sentiment needs to be whatever His sentiment is. If He is unhappy about something then how can I be happy about the same thing? If He is outside the church in Laodicea then how can I be satisfied to stay inside? And though eager in many ways to be wherever He resides and join with Him in His sentiment .... yet, do I also love as He loves? Do I love those believers that reject the Lord and love them as He loves them? His heart is without compare and I realized, speaking for myself, that it is all too easy for me to get technical (by the letter) about biblical things and forget the real and most important thing... joining with Lord in His sentiments and in the spirit of them toward fellow believers.. not only as pertains to righteousness, to warning, to reproof, and with discipline, but also in love.

Yes, I appreciated your presentation of the dilemma that many of us have faced and I suspect all Christians must face in their walk. It is as the Lord said "narrow is the way that leads to life and few there be that find it".

If you hear the Lord knocking to come out of Laodicea it doesn't mean He doesn't love them, just like being born blind is not proof of sin on the child or the parent's part. Rather it is so that the works of God can be done.

In my own experience the day I walked out I had no idea where I was going. I literally walked out of Dunton House in NY early on the Lord's day. Whenever I came to an intersection I simply prayed and "followed my spirit". I walked like this for several miles and then made a sharp left turn as though I had just picked up a very strong signal. I passed an apartment building, saw a man come out the front door with a Bible in his hand, and did a U turn and followed him up the hill to a large meeting hall. That was in 1998. It reminded me of the story of the disciples who saw a man carrying a large pitcher of water and followed him to an upper room.