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Old 02-10-2020, 03:41 AM   #1
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Default I left the Local Church After Reading the Real Church History

I left after nearly 8 yrs in the LC. I was saved there and enjoyed the fellowship with the saints. But the exclusiveness of the LC caused me to be a minion,and I think it's time to say goodbye, for a greater good. Looking back I was living in a delusion. I was a proud Christian because we were taught we are the recovery, commissioned by the Lord, unlike rest of the group. When I met with Christians who aren't from the LC, I don't expect to have any fellowship with them, because they are a 'denomination'. I never read books from the leaders of Christianity, I only read material given by LSM, although many times I found the Life Study by Lee isn't helpful. When I say the church and the ministry, I never had a feeling of including all other churches which aren't of the LC, or I say the ministry I can only thought of LSM. That's the effect of the brainwashing that has been done to my head. Basically I'm locked in a tiny, restricted area.

When I read the church history from the non LSM perspective I'm so happy to quit. Because being in the LC is like living in North Korea, it's a system of error, it just should not be that way, it doesn't make sense, it feels like the Mormon system or JW system, it is controlling, hiding history, telling the lies, a division and a delusion. Sad when I try to talk to some of them their brain can't even reason properly. They say lee isn't all perfect but can't admit LSM make mistake. They can't accept and appreciate the good work done by other Christian group, seemingly only LSM is worth praising. Even worse, they're not open to alternate interpretations, they won't read books that aren't from LSM. The fact is those books by LSM don't make many sales on amazon, yet they think those are the best books on earth that worth reading.

Now I enjoy reading books by many different authors now, and learn how to interpret the bible, look at references and commentary by different authors. I no longer subscribe to the one ministry idea, the idea itself is stupid and cultish.
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Old 02-10-2020, 01:58 PM   #2
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Default Re: I left the Local Church After Reading the Real Church History

[SIZE=""]Hallelujah!!! [/SIZE] Welcome to the forum! I have the exact same testimony as you wrote, as do so many on here - lots and lots of stories to read regarding this same experience of LC elitism on this forum. It is a sad thing. The last LC person I told that I had a great experience visiting various Christian groups around the country, had only a blank, silent stare for me. (I told him how the Lord had worked in me to enjoy the oneness of the Spirit and fellowship with any blood-bought believer . . .)
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Old 02-10-2020, 02:07 PM   #3
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They say lee isn't all perfect but can't admit LSM make mistake.
Unreg, welcome. Your point is worth raising. When you point out flaws, or mistakes, or errors, the LSM devotee says, "Hey, nobody's perfect." Yet the sole reason for the LSM and the LC or "recovery" to exist is because of the flaws of others. If not, Lee would have remained in the Southern Baptist assemblies and Nee in the Anglican church.

But no! Then it was intolerable! Spiritual fornication! Jezebel! Then they start their own group, and when one points its lacks then it's a shrug and "Hey, whatever".
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Old 02-10-2020, 06:43 PM   #4
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When I read the church history from the non LSM perspective I'm so happy to quit. Because being in the LC is like living in North Korea, it's a system of error, it just should not be that way, it doesn't make sense, it feels like the Mormon system or JW system, it is controlling, hiding history, telling the lies, a division and a delusion. Sad when I try to talk to some of them their brain can't even reason properly. They say lee isn't all perfect but can't admit LSM make mistake. They can't accept and appreciate the good work done by other Christian group, seemingly only LSM is worth praising. Even worse, they're not open to alternate interpretations, they won't read books that aren't from LSM. The fact is those books by LSM don't make many sales on amazon, yet they think those are the best books on earth that worth reading.
Within the LC, I always noticed a particular emphasis on church history and discussion of the successes/failures of various groups. It's almost as if it created a false sense of objectivity, to think that we were simply noting and improving on what others in the past had done. Except none of that turned out to be the case at all.

No doubt, Nee and Lee did correctly identify some of the shortcomings in various groups. That probably would have been fine if it had stopped there. Instead they sought to use that as a means to position the LC as something superior. Not only that, but it seems that at some point, a notion developed that there is some singular path that can be traced throughout church history, with the brethren as the immediate "successor" to the LC. Everything that happened outside of the LC after that point in time was completely irrelevant as far as the LC was concerned.

Lee even went on to make statements like "From 1945 to 1984, I found out that in both the English-speaking world and the Chinese-speaking world, there was not a weighty spiritual book published." Upon what basis could he even make such a claim? He could only do that because people in the LC were conditioned to believe exactly what they were told. It's ironic how things all started out with a seemingly fair assessment of church history and then became just another form of information control.
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Old 02-15-2020, 10:28 AM   #5
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No doubt, Nee and Lee did correctly identify some of the shortcomings in various groups. That probably would have been fine if it had stopped there. Instead they sought to use that as a means to position the LC as something superior. Not only that, but it seems that at some point, a notion developed that there is some singular path that can be traced throughout church history, with the brethren as the immediate "successor" to the LC. Everything that happened outside of the LC after that point in time was completely irrelevant as far as the LC was concerned.

Lee even went on to make statements like "From 1945 to 1984, I found out that in both the English-speaking world and the Chinese-speaking world, there was not a weighty spiritual book published." Upon what basis could he even make such a claim? He could only do that because people in the LC were conditioned to believe exactly what they were told. It's ironic how things all started out with a seemingly fair assessment of church history and then became just another form of information control.
Great observation! T. Austin Sparks certainly pointed out shortcomings in Christendom, but I never get the sense from him that he's setting himself up as something superior. (and BTW - Sparks certainly had books published during that time, which is certainly not lightweight stuff!)

What a prideful trap we all fell in back then . . . hard to believe it now! I remember the elation and freedom I felt when the Lord directed me to some books by John Piper. I was so happy in spirit that someone else outside the LC could write things about being seriously in love with God and about how we were meant to be enjoying Him daily! I had been in a really deep despair because I knew I didn't want to return to the LC, but I thought there was nothing else out there of genuine spiritual value. God led me through that despair to find Piper's "Desiring God." Through that book I was led into fellowship with some ex-LCers nearby.
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Old 02-21-2020, 08:22 AM   #6
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I left after nearly 8 yrs in the LC. I was saved there and enjoyed the fellowship with the saints. But the exclusiveness of the LC caused me to be a minion,and I think it's time to say goodbye, for a greater good. Looking back I was living in a delusion. I was a proud Christian because we were taught we are the recovery, commissioned by the Lord, unlike rest of the group. When I met with Christians who aren't from the LC, I don't expect to have any fellowship with them, because they are a 'denomination'. I never read books from the leaders of Christianity, I only read material given by LSM, although many times I found the Life Study by Lee isn't helpful. When I say the church and the ministry, I never had a feeling of including all other churches which aren't of the LC, or I say the ministry I can only thought of LSM. That's the effect of the brainwashing that has been done to my head. Basically I'm locked in a tiny, restricted area.

When I read the church history from the non LSM perspective I'm so happy to quit. Because being in the LC is like living in North Korea, it's a system of error, it just should not be that way, it doesn't make sense, it feels like the Mormon system or JW system, it is controlling, hiding history, telling the lies, a division and a delusion. Sad when I try to talk to some of them their brain can't even reason properly. They say lee isn't all perfect but can't admit LSM make mistake. They can't accept and appreciate the good work done by other Christian group, seemingly only LSM is worth praising. Even worse, they're not open to alternate interpretations, they won't read books that aren't from LSM. The fact is those books by LSM don't make many sales on amazon, yet they think those are the best books on earth that worth reading.

Now I enjoy reading books by many different authors now, and learn how to interpret the bible, look at references and commentary by different authors. I no longer subscribe to the one ministry idea, the idea itself is stupid and cultish.
Same here. When I read the church history that helped me a lot. I wish I was a college student right now because then I would be able to say goodbye to the LC for good. By the way, I've been born into the LC by parents already in the LC
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Old 02-23-2020, 09:10 AM   #7
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Great observation! T. Austin Sparks certainly pointed out shortcomings in Christendom, but I never get the sense from him that he's setting himself up as something superior. (and BTW - Sparks certainly had books published during that time, which is certainly not lightweight stuff!)

What a prideful trap we all fell in back then . . . hard to believe it now! I remember the elation and freedom I felt when the Lord directed me to some books by John Piper. I was so happy in spirit that someone else outside the LC could write things about being seriously in love with God and about how we were meant to be enjoying Him daily! I had been in a really deep despair because I knew I didn't want to return to the LC, but I thought there was nothing else out there of genuine spiritual value. God led me through that despair to find Piper's "Desiring God." Through that book I was led into fellowship with some ex-LCers nearby.

Yeah, Books of T. Austin Sparks are very rich in divine revealation but he was despised by Lee because of ground of oneness controversies. Lee insisted to pratice his one church per city. When Sparks seeked to correct Lee, it was Lee who turned his back from Sparks and despised him since then.
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Old 02-23-2020, 01:19 PM   #8
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Yeah, Books of T. Austin Sparks are very rich in divine revealation but he was despised by Lee because of ground of oneness controversies. Lee insisted to pratice his one church per city. When Sparks seeked to correct Lee, it was Lee who turned his back from Sparks and despised him since then.
Actually Lee never really practiced the one church one city (OCOC) doctrine. There are endless stories about him and his minions violating OCOC teachings with their divisive practices. Lee only used this OCOC doctrine on TASparks in order to create a wedge between them, and have a weapon to condemn TAS.

This was never so evident to me as when Lee's Blendeds came into the Midwest, dividing all the true LC's, who had long stood on the "local ground" of oneness, and filed lawsuits against them to steal their meeting halls.
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Old 02-23-2020, 01:48 PM   #9
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Sad when I try to talk to some of them their brain can't even reason properly. They say lee isn't all perfect but can't admit LSM make mistake. They can't accept and appreciate the good work done by other Christian group, seemingly only LSM is worth praising. Even worse, they're not open to alternate interpretations, they won't read books that aren't from LSM. The fact is those books by LSM don't make many sales on amazon, yet they think those are the best books on earth that worth reading.
That's my experience.
"I don't want to talk about it." or "God sees no iniquity in Israel" are some of the responses you might hear.
To talk about LSM's mistakes is likened to "uncovering or Noah".
It's just very narrow minded approach to have to shut down any logic or reason. That's been tossed out long ago.
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Old 02-23-2020, 04:05 PM   #10
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Actually Lee never really practiced the one church one city (OCOC) doctrine. There are endless stories about him and his minions violating OCOC teachings with their divisive practices. Lee only used this OCOC doctrine on TASparks in order to create a wedge between them, and have a weapon to condemn TAS.

This was never so evident to me as when Lee's Blendeds came into the Midwest, dividing all the true LC's, who had long stood on the "local ground" of oneness, and filed lawsuits against them to steal their meeting halls.
That's an interesting interpretation regarding TAS & WL . . . never heard it stated like that before. And do you mean Lee violated the OCOC because he violated their autonomy via central control?
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Old 02-24-2020, 02:29 AM   #11
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That's an interesting interpretation regarding TAS & WL . . . never heard it stated like that before. And do you mean Lee violated the OCOC because he violated their autonomy via central control?
Many stories of that over the years.

Many more stories of existing non-LSM LC's being overtaken by operatives from LSM.

WL never respected the boundaries of a LC or its eldership.
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Old 02-24-2020, 08:35 PM   #12
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That's my experience.
"I don't want to talk about it." or "God sees no iniquity in Israel" are some of the responses you might hear.
To talk about LSM's mistakes is likened to "uncovering or Noah".
It's just very narrow minded approach to have to shut down any logic or reason. That's been tossed out long ago.
I think that more and more, the LC is finding itself at a juncture where they have to decide between trying to do things the way that they've always done, or address the issues that they are facing. Of course, they keep choosing the first option despite any of the facts. In order to do so, they have to dismiss anything that contradicts their narrative.

With some of the more recent issues, like those that they've written articles about for shepherdingwords.com, it is clear that they don't care if they defy all logic in order to defend the LC and the actions of leaders. Personally, I wonder if LC members even really believe what they are being told. I suspect that in regards to some of these issues, they know that leaders are sidestepping the issue, but they don't want to raise any fuss about it by questioning that.
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Old 03-02-2020, 01:12 PM   #13
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I left after nearly 8 yrs in the LC. I was saved there and enjoyed the fellowship with the saints. But the exclusiveness of the LC caused me to be a minion,and I think it's time to say goodbye, for a greater good. Looking back I was living in a delusion. I was a proud Christian because we were taught we are the recovery, commissioned by the Lord, unlike rest of the group. When I met with Christians who aren't from the LC, I don't expect to have any fellowship with them, because they are a 'denomination'. I never read books from the leaders of Christianity, I only read material given by LSM, although many times I found the Life Study by Lee isn't helpful. When I say the church and the ministry, I never had a feeling of including all other churches which aren't of the LC, or I say the ministry I can only thought of LSM. That's the effect of the brainwashing that has been done to my head. Basically I'm locked in a tiny, restricted area.

When I read the church history from the non LSM perspective I'm so happy to quit. Because being in the LC is like living in North Korea, it's a system of error, it just should not be that way, it doesn't make sense, it feels like the Mormon system or JW system, it is controlling, hiding history, telling the lies, a division and a delusion. Sad when I try to talk to some of them their brain can't even reason properly. They say lee isn't all perfect but can't admit LSM make mistake. They can't accept and appreciate the good work done by other Christian group, seemingly only LSM is worth praising. Even worse, they're not open to alternate interpretations, they won't read books that aren't from LSM. The fact is those books by LSM don't make many sales on amazon, yet they think those are the best books on earth that worth reading.

Now I enjoy reading books by many different authors now, and learn how to interpret the bible, look at references and commentary by different authors. I no longer subscribe to the one ministry idea, the idea itself is stupid and cultish.
WL made such a big deal about the church not having a name; the church is simply “the” church which meets in the various cities. Yet he had no problem putting a name on “ the” ministry which we don’t find in the scriptures. So his ministry morphed into the ministry, the only legitimate ministry for the age.

I live in San Diego; if I go to the church in SD website, and look at their History page, there is no mention of LSM. If I go to their Belief page, there is nothing about believing LSM is the unique, all important, only God sanctioned ministry. Why can’t they be honest about their history and belief? Why hide from people this great age fulfilling “truth”? I was there when the “Elders” declared in a written statement their oneness with WL/LSM (that was, of course, after an elder, J Smith declaimed he could not in good conscience follow WL/LSM and walked away from the fiasco). Why is this not part of the church in SD history?

The poison to the LC is not the saints who object to WL/ LSM but LSM and the ones who perpetrate the cult scam business. Unless they can be honest and repent and return to the scripture, the LC will continue as a cult.
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Old 03-02-2020, 01:24 PM   #14
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WL made such a big deal about the church not having a name; the church is simply “the” church which meets in the various cities. Yet he had no problem putting a name on “ the” ministry which we don’t find in the scriptures. So his ministry morphed into the ministry, the only legitimate ministry for the age.
One of their many hypocrisies: The church with no name run by a ministry with a hundred names.
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Old 03-03-2020, 09:03 AM   #15
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When a JW comes to my door, I point out that they are not really coming in the name of Jehovah, but are here to pedal Watchtower, at which time they go into a similar song and dance as a LC person would concerning WL/LSM.

This hiding of the symbiotic relation between the LC and WL/LSM in the history and belief pages of the church in SD website is so deceptive and reveals what is probably the true inner conflict LC members must have in regard to that whole ministry. They want to present this public image that they are happy ordinary Christians that just found a more biblical way to meet, who love the Lord and the scriptures. But they cannot bring themselves to publicly present that they are God’s move on earth under the up-to-date ministry which will close the age! If they truly believed this- shouldn’t this be their proclamation. Wouldn’t you want all the people and Christians in SD to know what they are missing? Wouldn’t they expect the Holy Spirit to witness to the seeking people the “truth” of what God is doing. Let’s face it- if you had no watchtower, you would have no JWs, if you had no Book of Mormon, you would have no LDS church, if you had no WL/LSM, the current form of LC “movement” would collapse. But how do you convince the public that WL was God’s man, and that his teachings were the word, and the LSM that he established is the only complete, true, all encompassing ministry that would complete God’s eternal purpose? How do you center your whole life, thinking, theology, rituals, programs, trainings, fellowship, acceptance of believers, relations around WL/LSM and not publicly proclaim- not shout from the roof tops what has been revealed to you in secret.?
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Old 03-10-2020, 04:51 PM   #16
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Personally, I wonder if LC members even really believe what they are being told. I suspect that in regards to some of these issues, they know that leaders are sidestepping the issue, but they don't want to raise any fuss about it by questioning that.
As have I. Thought in my mind to members, "do you actually believe this?" These thoughts even applied to deacons and elders. Yet any possibility to have an objection discussion eventually ends in the saying; "I feel to honor the feeling of the body". Code for yielding to the leadership in Anaheim.

Having said all this, I do believe those not believing this will either cease meeting regularly or flat out leave as ones like John Smith have.
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Old 03-10-2020, 06:20 PM   #17
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The thing that was always so striking to me was that there were clear cases of disillusionment that I saw among long time members. Most of the time these members would try to find ways to rationalize or attempt to minimize the extent of the disillusionment.
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Old 03-11-2020, 08:34 AM   #18
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The thing that was always so striking to me was that there were clear cases of disillusionment that I saw among long time members. Most of the time these members would try to find ways to rationalize or attempt to minimize the extent of the disillusionment.
Or just set the information aside, as the thinking is this (the LC) is God's purpose and besides, where else is there to go? I think I was sort of like that - didn't really want to hear too much as I thought it was just a distraction from the important . . . .
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Old 03-11-2020, 09:31 AM   #19
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"Where else is there to go" was part and parcel of the disillusionment. Those of us who experienced the Lord, and had a taste of true Christian fellowship before entering the Local Church of Witness Lee knew very well that what was being taught were grievous exaggerations at best, and at worst were vicious lies that twisted the hearts and minds of gullible young people and new believers alike. Eventually, the constant mantra of "poor, poor Christianity" became as music to our ears. Soon we were shouting out "down with Babylon!" as we looked down with contempt at our brothers and sisters in Christ.

Eventually we were so numb that we would swallow wholesale absurd and heretical teachings like "The Triune God is now the four-in-one God". (see today's Witness Wednesday quote) We heard people publicly shout out: "hallelujah I'm a baby god!" and didn't give it a second thought. Soon we heard brothers extolling the virtues of being a "brother Lee tape recorder!". May God have mercy.
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Old 03-11-2020, 06:31 PM   #20
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"Where else is there to go" was part and parcel of the disillusionment.
That is a very good point. I can't even count how many times I heard people in the LC say things like that. I didn't always realize it, but by the time there is that kind of talk happening, the disillusionment has probably been there for awhile.
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Old 03-29-2020, 05:19 PM   #21
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That is a very good point. I can't even count how many times I heard people in the LC say things like that. I didn't always realize it, but by the time there is that kind of talk happening, the disillusionment has probably been there for awhile.
I have been told that too. Also in there is the practice of "everyone speaking". My response is if you become part of a home meeting group, there is plenty opportunity for everyone to speak.
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Old 04-21-2020, 03:39 PM   #22
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I have been told that too. Also in there is the practice of "everyone speaking". My response is if you become part of a home meeting group, there is plenty opportunity for everyone to speak.
I think that with people who came into the LC having some sort of existing Christian background, it is quite possible they did so because they legitimately felt that the LC had something to offer that other groups didn't.

By contrast, those who grew up in the LC never knew anything different, so it would be impossible to make that kind of determination without having visited other groups. Most of us just learned to take other people's word for it.
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Old 04-21-2020, 05:28 PM   #23
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Default Re: I left the Local Church After Reading the Real Church History

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By contrast, those who grew up in the LC never knew anything different, so it would be impossible to make that kind of determination without having visited other groups. Most of us just learned to take other people's word for it.
It's really sad, but that's how it was and I believe still is.
Ones raised in the local churches are either:
  • positive for the ministry
  • feign being positive for the ministry but this is the only Christian life they know
  • Allow their experiences in the local churches to affect their faith, lose faith and become unbelieving out of the thought local churches represent what it is to be a Christian (which it is not).
  • Those who have see past the pretention and seek to meet with Christians outside the local churches.

By contrast it is no different in denominations. Those raised as a Lutheran it is all they know. Those raised as a Baptist it is all they know.
It's a challenge to break free and leave the comfort zone.
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Old 04-21-2020, 07:19 PM   #24
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It's really sad, but that's how it was and I believe still is.
Ones raised in the local churches are either:
  • positive for the ministry
  • feign being positive for the ministry but this is the only Christian life they know
  • Allow their experiences in the local churches to affect their faith, lose faith and become unbelieving out of the thought local churches represent what it is to be a Christian (which it is not).
  • Those who have see past the pretention and seek to meet with Christians outside the local churches.
For bullet #2, feigning being positive for the ministry but this is the only Christian life they know.....part of what comes with that is disillusionment, deflation, dissatisfaction, depression. It's a totally defeated mind and soul. It's "what am I doing wrong?" It's "why aren't I happy?" It's "why does everyone else act okay? Am I the problem? Does God not care about me?" It's a feeling of being totally trapped, knowing that what you are being fed isn't cutting it, but being literally afraid and unable to try anything else.

It creates a life of desperation for that person.

I am so ready for something to change in the LC.
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Old 04-21-2020, 09:45 PM   #25
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For bullet #2, feigning being positive for the ministry but this is the only Christian life they know.....part of what comes with that is disillusionment, deflation, dissatisfaction, depression. It's a totally defeated mind and soul. It's "what am I doing wrong?" It's "why aren't I happy?" It's "why does everyone else act okay? Am I the problem? Does God not care about me?" It's a feeling of being totally trapped, knowing that what you are being fed isn't cutting it, but being literally afraid and unable to try anything else.

It creates a life of desperation for that person.

I am so ready for something to change in the LC.
Yes, it's my experience. Everyone is so positive and so okay, why don't I feel it? I must be the only one who has a problem.
Having to speak one way for the meetings, but never to speak what is on my mind or what interests me. To truly speak my mind would have resulted being escorted out of the meeting hall. That is what fear of man does.
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Old 04-22-2020, 08:50 AM   #26
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Yes, it's my experience. Everyone is so positive and so okay, why don't I feel it? I must be the only one who has a problem.
Having to speak one way for the meetings, but never to speak what is on my mind or what interests me. To truly speak my mind would have resulted being escorted out of the meeting hall. That is what fear of man does.
I think for me, the meetings felt boring a lot of the time. I remember when the elders would get the sense that someone or multiple people weren't enjoying the meeting, that's when they would start making everyone stand up and call on the Lord three times. Sometimes they would even single someone out and make them do it by themselves.

I could never understand what made them think that getting people to do that would resolve the boredom, lack of interest or whatever other underlying problem there was.
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Old 04-23-2020, 11:27 AM   #27
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I am from India and I have experienced the same thing with the elders here. I also feel that many youngsters have left this movement (for good) because of the coercion and judgement they face if they don't keep up with the standard operating procedures.
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Old 04-28-2020, 08:35 PM   #28
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I think for me, the meetings felt boring a lot of the time. I remember when the elders would get the sense that someone or multiple people weren't enjoying the meeting, that's when they would start making everyone stand up and call on the Lord three times. Sometimes they would even single someone out and make them do it by themselves.

I could never understand what made them think that getting people to do that would resolve the boredom, lack of interest or whatever other underlying problem there was.
God, I had a somewhat similar experience one time during the Labor Day conference in Chicago last year. Brother Minoru Chen got mad while he was speaking because (I think) people either were not paying attention or didnt enjoy the meetings. He pretty much compared people who were not enjoying or paying attention to an analogy of babies not willing to breathe and becoming blue or something to that extent
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Old 04-29-2020, 04:36 PM   #29
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Default Re: I left the Local Church After Reading the Real Church History

I have been out of the LC for many years. Once in a while I see LSM Youtube videos where everyone lo so happy. Are you saying many of the meetings, conferences are boring, with little to no vitality? Little joy?
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Old 05-02-2020, 08:08 PM   #30
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I have been out of the LC for many years. Once in a while I see LSM Youtube videos where everyone lo so happy. Are you saying many of the meetings, conferences are boring, with little to no vitality? Little joy?
Handful of times I've visited a LC meeting in the last ten years, that is correct. Little joy. My perspective it's a time for a social outlet (before, during, and after the meeting). For some it's become a form of religion. As in "this is what we do."
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Old 05-03-2020, 12:15 AM   #31
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I have been out of the LC for many years. Once in a while I see LSM Youtube videos where everyone lo so happy. Are you saying many of the meetings, conferences are boring, with little to no vitality? Little joy?
I was in a meeting in the last couple years where the fellowship was about, what else, life.

I can't recall the details of the meeting, but in the sharing time afterward a brother stood up and balled his hands up into fists while punching the air (is there a better phrase to describe that action we all know?), saying desperately, "I just need life! Oh, I just want life! I have been so dry and down and am so desperate for life!"

I just sat there watching him, thinking, "what else have you all been talking about for the past countless decades? how is it you are desperate for what you all should be swimming in by now?"

What I'm trying to describe is what feels like an atmosphere of always pining for something that is never quite obtained. And how can it be obtained? They are told "if you think you have obtained, you haven't. And if you don't think you've obtained, you have!" That leaves you always pining. There's no joy in that.
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Old 05-03-2020, 12:27 AM   #32
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Handful of times I've visited a LC meeting in the last ten years, that is correct. Little joy. My perspective it's a time for a social outlet (before, during, and after the meeting). For some it's become a form of religion. As in "this is what we do."
Yes, it's just what they do.

And then you get the sheepish, "because where else is there to go? we can't go anywhere else."

I think the best part of the meetings is the singing, just due to the nature of singing itself. It's communal, it's relational, it's (can be) beautiful, the melody and harmonies soothe the soul, etc. But once the meeting itself gets going, their eyes glaze over like Krispy Kreme's.

I mean, take a training meeting, for example, and compare it to a Sunday sermon.

Most pastors will start their sermons with a, "Hey, church, how's it going? It's so good to see everyone here. For anyone new, we're so glad you're here!"

Ron Kangas starts out every training message with "the subject...............of the outline.................is Christ...............as the throne...........of God's government...............governing..........the universe............as the fulfillment...........of the kernel............of the divine..........revelation. We will see.............in tonight's message..........that this kernel...........was the seed........planted.............in the ground of Christ's humanity.............as prophesied............in the Old Testament. I have been allotted...........90 minutes..........and by the Lord's mercy.........will finish.........on time........"

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Old 05-03-2020, 09:05 AM   #33
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Default Re: I left the Local Church After Reading the Real Church History

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I was in a meeting in the last couple years where the fellowship was about, what else, life.

I can't recall the details of the meeting, but in the sharing time afterward a brother stood up and balled his hands up into fists while punching the air (is there a better phrase to describe that action we all know?), saying desperately, "I just need life! Oh, I just want life! I have been so dry and down and am so desperate for life!"

I just sat there watching him, thinking, "what else have you all been talking about for the past countless decades? how is it you are desperate for what you all should be swimming in by now?"

What I'm trying to describe is what feels like an atmosphere of always pining for something that is never quite obtained. And how can it be obtained? They are told "if you think you have obtained, you haven't. And if you don't think you've obtained, you have!" That leaves you always pining. There's no joy in that.
Can life itself be an idol? I think so - "the pride of life." (1 John 2:16) But where is life, and more accurately, who is life? It is Jesus, the way, the truth and THE LIFE!

It's kind of the same thing when saying "Turn to your spirit." This phrase is not in the Bible. Of course, the Lord is one with our spirit, but to focus on spirit instead of the Lord is a little off, wouldn't you say? Plenty of verses about turning to the Lord. It may seem like a minor point, but just like this "life" that the LC brother was so intent on finding - not there except in Christ Himself.
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Old 05-03-2020, 09:29 AM   #34
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I was in a meeting in the last couple years where the fellowship was about, what else, life.

I can't recall the details of the meeting, but in the sharing time afterward a brother stood up and balled his hands up into fists while punching the air (is there a better phrase to describe that action we all know?), saying desperately, "I just need life! Oh, I just want life! I have been so dry and down and am so desperate for life!"
So what became of 1 Corinthians 13:13 in the LC/LSM? But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.
hmmm??

And if a person is so bothered by being so dry and down and desperate for 'life', 1 John 5:14-15 says This is the confidence which we have before Him, that, if we ask anything according to His will, He hears us. And if we know that He hears us in whatever we ask, we know that we have the requests which we have asked from Him.

Seems to me needing 'life' is an easy fix.

Btw, I remember those days of balling up your fists and punching the air. I think it it gives Matthew 11:12 a new spin: From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and violent men take it by force.
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Old 05-18-2020, 08:19 PM   #35
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Yes, it's just what they do.

And then you get the sheepish, "because where else is there to go? we can't go anywhere else."

They've been conditioned for years of not being able to go anywhere else.
There's no trying. Being told for years, "we have all the riches". Results in pride. Being told "here in the local churches we're unique". That too results in pride.
Ever see the movie Goodfellas? Last scene of the movie reminds me of the LCM. Here you have Henry Hill in the witness protection program reduced to being just another schmuck. The distinction and the uniqueness is no more.
Just like the LC. Some don't want to go anywhere else. Not wanting to meet as just another church when believing "we had all the riches" and "we were God's move on the earth".
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Old 05-18-2020, 09:09 PM   #36
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They've been conditioned for years of not being able to go anywhere else.
There's no trying. Being told for years, "we have all the riches". Results in pride. Being told "here in the local churches we're unique". That too results in pride.
Ever see the movie Goodfellas? Last scene of the movie reminds me of the LCM. Here you have Henry Hill in the witness protection program reduced to being just another schmuck. The distinction and the uniqueness is no more.
Just like the LC. Some don't want to go anywhere else. Not wanting to meet as just another church when believing "we had all the riches" and "we were God's move on the earth".
I can understand having that mindset, because the "step down" can certainly be an adjustment, as well as a bit of a personal earth-shatterer if it comes out of the blue.

Because even if they do somehow manage to walk through the doors of a "denomination" or "so-called church" one Sunday, or a few Sundays in a row, they still have to contend with the ingrained judgmental attitude that can be hard to beat.

"Oh, their music is contemporary"
"Oh, they just have one man speaking"
"That graphic on the screen feels like leaven"
"They didn't mention God's economy even once"
"That pastor seems to be drumming up emotion rather than the reality of Christ as life"

And on and on and on, and it makes it almost impossible to just sit there and take it in.

But honestly, once you do "step down", it's such a relief. You can just be a failure of a human being, washed in the blood, much more real and authentic with those around you who are also in just one of many churches, and not in the be-all, end-all place.

Because it's exhausting "having all the riches" when your life doesn't bear it out.
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Old 05-19-2020, 09:57 AM   #37
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I can understand having that mindset, because the "step down" can certainly be an adjustment, as well as a bit of a personal earth-shatterer if it comes out of the blue.

Because even if they do somehow manage to walk through the doors of a "denomination" or "so-called church" one Sunday, or a few Sundays in a row, they still have to contend with the ingrained judgmental attitude that can be hard to beat.

"Oh, their music is contemporary"
"Oh, they just have one man speaking"
"That graphic on the screen feels like leaven"
"They didn't mention God's economy even once"
"That pastor seems to be drumming up emotion rather than the reality of Christ as life"

And on and on and on, and it makes it almost impossible to just sit there and take it in.

But honestly, once you do "step down", it's such a relief. You can just be a failure of a human being, washed in the blood, much more real and authentic with those around you who are also in just one of many churches, and not in the be-all, end-all place.

Because it's exhausting "having all the riches" when your life doesn't bear it out.
Amen to that! So we in Scottsdale have kept, from the LC, some of the basic ways we meet, and have gleaned-out a lot of the LC content (almost no LSM/WL). And starting early on during my time in Scottsdale, when I'd travel, I'd visit other Christian groups (since the Lord showed me the LC didn't have the exclusive lock on God). At first it was hard, as I was still very judgmental. But eventually the Lord showed me how to just be with different groups and enjoy simply being with other believers, participate in their style of worship, and appreciate the portion of Christ they had. This is so, so much more enjoyable than being all wrapped-up in judging!

Again, this took the Anointing working in me over a period of time. I'm certainly not perfected in that respect, but much better than I once was . . .
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Old 05-24-2020, 01:34 PM   #38
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I can understand having that mindset, because the "step down" can certainly be an adjustment, as well as a bit of a personal earth-shatterer if it comes out of the blue.

Because even if they do somehow manage to walk through the doors of a "denomination" or "so-called church" one Sunday, or a few Sundays in a row, they still have to contend with the ingrained judgmental attitude that can be hard to beat.

"Oh, their music is contemporary"
"Oh, they just have one man speaking"
"That graphic on the screen feels like leaven"
"They didn't mention God's economy even once"
"That pastor seems to be drumming up emotion rather than the reality of Christ as life"

And on and on and on, and it makes it almost impossible to just sit there and take it in.

But honestly, once you do "step down", it's such a relief. You can just be a failure of a human being, washed in the blood, much more real and authentic with those around you who are also in just one of many churches, and not in the be-all, end-all place.

Because it's exhausting "having all the riches" when your life doesn't bear it out.
Good points all and where should I begin?
  • Oh, their music is contemporary - my words on this topic has often fallen on deaf ears. Just because a certain brother or sister didn't compose the hymn, it should be disqualified? How is one generation can have God-inspired hymn, but not the current one. Since when has there been an appointed arbiter which hymn is God-inspired and which hymn is not?
  • Oh, they just have one man speaking - how is the ministry publications not one man speaking? There may be many voices re-speaking it in prophesying meetings, but all speaking one man's word.
  • That graphic on the screen feels like leaven - never phased me. Focus was on the scripture text on the screen. Yet it goes both ways. In the local church meetings, whenever announcements were being made, likewise it felt like leaven. Giving to DCP, publication orders, etc.
  • They didn't mention God's Economy even once - Is there a copyright on the term that it must be invoked for a meeting to be validated a Christians assembling? I recall hearing Lee borrowed the phrase from T.A. Sparks and repackaged as uniquely Lee's. There's no copyright on ministering Christ to others.
  • That pastor seems to be drumming up emotion rather than the reality of Christ as life - no matter how much we strive, in our fallen condition there's always preferences what type of word our ears want to hear. For me I always preferred the message that convicts my spirit.
  • Having all the riches - this was the tipping point when I left. Always seemed to be spoken by someone in every prophesying meeting whether I was visiting in California or in my home state of washington. You say you have all the riches, but the manner the local churches operate as if they're like the Strongman in Luke 12:29. Having a self-imposed "the ministry is the basis for fellowship", they guard their riches and unwilling to fellowship outside the local churches.

Rarely in the local churches was there a spoken sense of humility and grace of our sinful human condition. More often that not there was a focus on being an "overcomer". Something I felt as being futile and unattainable. Leaves a person feeling as a failure and despondent regardless how positive the brothers are speaking. Not encouraging at all. To listen to a pastor refer to his own condition needing to be washed by the blood is real, authentic, and humble.
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