New Light from Old

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by YP0534

Ohio:

can you cite to me a place where it is printed this phrase "as I laid my pen down"?

I think I heard that once but not enough to stick.

Your quote brings it back to mind for me and that just happens to jibe with some of my speculation about October 1984....

YP, I heard that phrase a number of times, and it became almost symbolic. The actual event was the finish of the outlines and notes for the Acts Training in Irving winter 1984. I was there, staying in Arlington. WL used the event to imply that his Lfe Study work in the US was finished, and he was moving to Taipei to start something new.

At least that is how my memory remembers it, but I couldn't point to a book, I don't remember reading it. After that training, subsequent ones became wild promotionals for recruitment of full-timers and the FTTT.

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Ohio

YP, I heard that phrase a number of times, and it became almost symbolic. The actual event was the finish of the outlines and notes for the Acts Training in Irving winter 1984. I was there, staying in Arlington. WL used the event to imply that his Lfe Study work in the US was finished, and he was moving to Taipei to start something new.

At least that is how my memory remembers it, but I couldn't point to a book, I don't remember reading it. After that training, subsequent ones became wild promotionals for recruitment of full-timers and the FTTT.

I'm in agreement that the phrase took on a particular significance for at least a brief while but I never got completely clear on what it was supposed to mean before everything became about the practical issues of the "new way."

Do me a favor and keep this question in mind in case you think of something more specific about it or somehow run across it again.

My first training was Winter 1985 and the title then was "The Conclusion of the New Testament Part 2" with messages on The Spirit and The Believers. I had never heard of Witness Lee before September 1985. I am thinking it may have been spoken during this training which is why I do not recall it so clearly and did not have a strong sense of what it meant. I imagine you may also have heard this phrase at the Summer 1985 training, if you were there. I have no idea whatever became of my notes and outline from this training but I do somehow still have the abstracts and, of course, the printed version. I'm going to put it in line to comb through these and see what I can come up with along these lines.

I suppose it may well have been, upon concluding a careful study of Acts, that Lee concluded, "Our practice is not like this, either in the US or in Taiwan. I will go back to Taiwan and see if we can get our practice to match what we have seen in the Acts." But significantly, he ascribes the problem in Taiwan since 1955 to T. Austin-Sparks from that "put down my pen" time and I do not see that conclusion as directly resulting from his study of the New Testament.

Like I said, please keep this question in mind if you come across it somewhere...

[YP0534]

Our practice is one thing, but to take our practice as a basis for fellowship is another. Our practice may be according to our need, but we should not make our practice the basis of fellowship. For instance, we love to practice pray-reading because it helps us to enjoy the Lord, but we should never make pray-reading the basis of fellowship. Whether you like pray-reading or not, we do not care. We simply love you because you are a brother.

Some who speak in tongues always like to convince others to speak in tongues. This is the problem. And some who practice baptism by immersion always like to convince others to take immersion. But we must be willing to drop all of these things as a basis for fellowship. We may practice certain things because they help us, but we should not make any practice a basis for our fellowship. We really need grace for this.

Even our way of doing things should not hinder our fellowship. The way we do things may differ from that of others. If this is the case, we should not say a word. Our way of doing things is not the basis for fellowship.

There have been some in the past that have tried to adjust us. But we have told them that since we do not adjust them, they should not adjust us. Could everyone drive a car in the same way? This is why we have “backseat” drivers. When the car is driven by you, you must drive it. But when it is driven by others, you should let them drive it. Could you do this? Could you let others drive and not say a word? It is not so easy. If you drive a car in a certain way, you should not expect others to drive it in the same way as you. Therefore, we told the dear ones who tried to adjust us that as far as we were concerned, it was quite all right for them to do things in their way. We only asked that they would please give us the same freedom to do things in our way.

We must learn the lesson of grace in this way. We may practice many things for the Lord, yet we should not make any one of these things the basis for fellowship. When we practice the church life and take the standing of the unique ground of unity, we must not particularize in any thing. If we once particularize anything, we become a sect. If you prefer to speak in tongues, you should not expect the church to speak in tongues. If you expect the whole church to speak in tongues, you will make it a sect of speaking in tongues. The church is general, very general. It cannot specialize in any particular thing. But the problem is that if the church does not take your opinion or your way, you will say that the church is narrow. But really, it is you who are narrow. We cannot take anything special. We must be general. Then we are really not narrow, but, in fact, broad.

To be broad does not mean that we take in everything. To be broad means to be general, not opposing anything nor imposing anything. If you are of a certain opinion, you should realize that not all the brothers will have the same concept. We cannot expect others always to hold the same opinion as we.

We must be general. We should not be particular in anything. Wherever you go, do not make demands upon others. Perhaps their way is better than yours, or yours better than theirs, but this is not important. We must be so general that we may have the proper fellowship. The proper fellowship is not based upon a way or a practice. It is only based upon the same life within us.

Witness Lee, The Practical Expression of the Church

Those who have taken the new way should not be particular about that. Perhaps that way is better than the way of the others, but this is not the basis for proper fellowship. As brother Lee clearly taught, the proper fellowship is not based upon a way or a practice. It is only based upon the same life within us.

It is especially interesting to me to see the "one car - one driver" thing in such a different context here than in the Elders' Training message! And it would appear that at a certain point, brother Lee considered that indeed, you can expect others to drive the car the same way as he did...

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by YP0534

I suppose it may well have been, upon concluding a careful study of Acts, that Lee concluded, "Our practice is not like this, either in the US or in Taiwan. I will go back to Taiwan and see if we can get our practice to match what we have seen in the Acts." But significantly, he ascribes the problem in Taiwan since 1955 to T. Austin-Sparks from that "put down my pen" time and I do not see that conclusion as directly resulting from his study of the New Testament.

Like I said, please keep this question in mind if you come across it somewhere.. .

Another thought presented by WL during this time was, "we have recovered life, we have recovered the truth, now we must recover the way." This supposedly corresponded with John 14.6 -- "I am the way, the truth, and the life." WL thus summarized his ministry in America: Mid 60's to mid 70's was "life," then the life study era to the mid 80's was "truth," then he had a "laboratory" in Taipei to find the "way." Eventually by the early 90's, this was superseded by the "high peak."

"The Conclusion" that you mentioned was a rehash of topics and the precursor for the "crystalization study of the NT" which followed.

[YP0534]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Another thought presented by WL during this time was, "we have recovered life, we have recovered the truth, now we must recover the way." This supposedly corresponded with John 14.6 -- "I am the way, the truth, and the life." WL thus summarized his ministry in America: Mid 60's to mid 70's was "life," then the life study era to the mid 80's was "truth," then he had a "laboratory" in Taipei to find the "way." Eventually by the early 90's, this was superseded by the "high peak."

"The Conclusion" that you mentioned was a rehash of topics and the precursor for the "crystalization study of the NT" which followed.

Although I've never gotten into the printed Conclusion messages that I have, I did appreciate their purpose. Lee called them, at the time, "the consummation and final reaping" of all of his years of Bible study. It could be viewed as a topical index of all of his teachings in the New Testament and I've been amazed that some of them remain unpublished to this date, more than 20 years later. I really considered Lee might withdraw from public speaking after giving those messages. I mean, after all, what could follow the "final reaping" other than picking up the lost bits that have fallen to the earth? What comes after "The Conclusion?" "The Post-Script?" "The Appendix?"

As I understand it, though, Lee himself didn't finish the Crystalization study, did he?

Thanks for the insight about the three factors. I don't think I heard that before but it does seem to match his way of thinking. Except that I do see that there was a real problem with describing a practical "way" to meet and serve and having the saints apprehend that this description could be nothing but Christ Himself, as we recognize was the case for the other two items.

I'm sorry, but I just cannot accept that the applications for migration are only Christ Himself as the Way. And I'm pretty sure anyone reviewing this form would agree, even you, Ohio, who liked it for practical reasons.

There was an incident where some trainers had to apologize to a group of trainees about their way. The trainers publicly repented of their technique and prayed that their way did not cause permanent damage. We obviously couldn't say that no one could make a mistake. But at the same time you have to emphasize that anyone could make a mistake.

My realization in these days is that the biggest mistake was the action on the practical side before the recovery of the truth was concluded in reality. The consequence of failing to ever see through the veil of "Universal Church" is that they determined to build that very thing and have merely succeeded in enshrining the teachings of Lee and Nee in yet another denomination.

[Hope]

The turn away from the vision WL had regarding the Practice of the Local Church Life began in January 1974 at the very first special elders and co-workers conference.

Thanks brothers for bringing up this thread. In the coming third chapter, I stress this event. Few of the saints realize or even know what an earthquake this meeting was:

An attempt to salvage the Day Star disaster,

National Local Church Credit Union, complete with a national organizational chart with LSM on top, (bet you never heard of that),

Consolidation of existing but not so critical churches,

Move to Anaheim and to the "young people cities,"

Max R. becomes WLs right hand man to direct the churches on behalf of WL,

The Launch of LSM and dissolving of "The Stream Ministry",

The official designation of the Approved speaker list,

The shift from local initiated meetings to Life study ministry and common direction from Anaheim,

The appointment of Max R. to travel to the churches to make adjustments on behalf of WL,

The shift from elders being shepherds to being good organizers and dynamic leaders,

The public put down and humiliation of senior brothers and co-workers begins,

etc. Much more to report!!

The effects were immediate but gradual. While I have no use for the cult books that came out later or the authors, I believe the Lord allowed it as a loud siren warning to us. The full effect of this falling away came about in 1986. By then it was too late. WL's shouting put downs of TC and other senior brothers in 1974 became the fermentation book, spitting on Lang's book and the 1989 Lee is great message.

WL had the concept that he needed to be in charge at least by 1977. He told John So and myself in Athens Greece that he was the thumb and other gifted brothers were fingers whose function depended on being related to him. (Now that was quite a conversation!!!)

May we all continue in His love and peace and abound in hope.

In Christ Jesus, "Hope" aka Don Rutledge

[countmeworthy]

I have a couple of questions...

1) What were the meetings like before the life study messages? How were the local churches organized to be on the same page, that is to share on the same subject matter coming from LA or Anaheim or were they?

2) When did the 'life study' messages end?

WL had the concept that he needed to be in charge at least by 1977.

That's right about the time my spirit began to trouble me. Up to then, I loved my spiritual mentors (elders) in my locality. When I had fellowship with them one on one they led me to the scriptures & in prayer. They never said it was 'Brother Lee's' way is the best way. I was aware that Brother Lee was dishing out the LS messages. Our focus nonetheless was on Christ AND the church. The church life. It was not on LEE and the church.

But for the most part, I got a lot out of the Life Study messages... that was then though...This is now. I haven't picked one up in decades..

But in late '77 into 78......The elders who gave the messages began to emphasize strongly Brother Lee's position. They'd compare him to Paul the Apostle.

It got so bad for me, that after I left the LC, I didn't want to read the letters Saint Paul wrote to the various churches & individuals.

I purposely inserted SAINT to Paul because the only saints the LC ever spoke of were the saints in the LC. Paul was a saint!!

[Hope]

[QUOTE=countmeworthy;914]I have a couple of questions...

1) What were the meetings like before the life study messages? How were the local churches organized to be on the same page, that is to share on the same subject matter coming from LA or Anaheim or were they?

2) When did the 'life study' messages end?

But for the most part, I got a lot out of the Life Study messages... that was then though...This is now. I haven't picked one up in decades..



The meetings were generally characterized with a lot of singing with the supplement songs and local compositions dominating the selections. Many testimonies were given regarding the experience of Christ in the brother and sister's daily life. Many were very enlightening regarding the experience of the indwelling Christ. There was much spontaneous speaking regarding passages of scripture someone had been reading. There was usually some Bible passage from the elders or from miscellaneous saints for pray reading. There were many testimonies and prayer regarding people the saints were caring for or had met in their daily life. There was not much ministry from the local brothers. The meetings were pretty much run by the members under the governing of the Holy Spirit.

In January 1974 Witness Lee shared his burden was to equip the churches with the truth. He wanted to fulfill WN's desire to give a commentary on the entire Bible. WL introduced the term Life Study at this elders/co-workers meeting. He referenced the training on Psalms and Ezekiel as something like what he was burdened to do. He then selected certain churches to be ministry station churches where the messages would be repeated by certain qualified brothers. Churches like Memphis and New Orleans were deemed too small and without qualified speakers to be ministry station churches.

From this beginning, WL's LSM ministry, the Friday night life study meeting, and the two annual trainings in Anaheim came to be the accepted content for ministry and church meetings and the ultra spontaneous member driven meetings were gradually put aside.

I too got a lot out of the Life Studies. I also lost all taste for them due to the abuses suffered by so many on the altar of the New Way.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Hope

The effects were immediate but gradual. While I have no use for the cult books that came out later or the authors, I believe the Lord allowed it as a loud siren warning to us. The full effect of this falling away came about in 1986. By then it was too late. WL's shouting put downs of TC and other senior brothers in 1974 became the fermentation book, spitting on Lang's book and the 1989 Lee is great message.

WL had the concept that he needed to be in charge at least by 1977. He told John So and myself in Athens Greece that he was the thumb and other gifted brothers were fingers whose function depended on being related to him. (Now that was quite a conversation!!!)

I found it interesting that when I "quoted" your post, the tag line was "Hope;911"

The details of this post in the next chapter will be helpful indeed, especially for those of us who have invested a lifetime in the LC program only to have this gnawing ache within of "how could something so good, become so bad." The events of this "very first special elders and co-workers conference" are shocking indeed. This preceded my time in the LC's by a couple years.

Hope, your comments about Max are notable. We always heard that he was extremely ambitious, usurping power and position, while WL, otoh, was always kind, benevolent, spiritual, magnanimous, and godly -- though perhaps a little "vulnerable" to the likes of Max -- because he (WL) was somewhat distant and "removed" from the "politics" of leadership, in order that he could devote himself exclusively to prayer, ministry, and the study of the scripture. Apparently that was a public relations message.

If your coming chapter expands on this post, then I'll pray for you, because you are "defacing the great image." And the "caretakers of that image" will be a little upset.

Can you also elaborate on this statement -- WL's shouting put downs of TC and other senior brothers in 1974 became the fermentation book, spitting on Lang's book and the 1989 Lee is great message.

[Hope]

Originally Posted by Ohio

I found it interesting that when I "quoted" your post, the tag line was "Hope;911"

The details of this post in the next chapter will be helpful indeed, especially for those of us who have invested a lifetime in the LC program only to have this gnawing ache within of "how could something so good, become so bad." The events of this "very first special elders and co-workers conference" are shocking indeed. This preceded my time in the LC's by a couple years.

Hope, your comments about Max are notable. We always heard that he was extremely ambitious, usurping power and position, while WL, otoh, was always kind, benevolent, spiritual, magnanimous, and godly -- though perhaps a little "vulnerable" to the likes of Max -- because he (WL) was somewhat distant and "removed" from the "politics" of leadership, in order that he could devote himself exclusively to prayer, ministry, and the study of the scripture. Apparently that was a public relations message.

If your coming chapter expands on this post, then I'll pray for you, because you are "defacing the great image." And the "caretakers of that image" will be a little upset.

Can you also elaborate on this statement -- WL's shouting put downs of TC and other senior brothers in 1974 became the fermentation book, spitting on Lang's book and the 1989 Lee is great message.

On the one hand MR could be described as extremely ambitious, usurping power and position but he also had many good points and I can dig out some helpful actions on his part and he did shake up some apathy that needed shaking up.

And yes WL could be and usually was "kind, benevolent, spiritual, magnanimous, and godly -- though perhaps a little "vulnerable" but WL could also be more ambitious for his work than MR ever thought about. While MR attempted to shake things up he never sought to throw anyone under the bus. WL had no problem with jettisoning brothers. His motto was "shed two tears and go on."

In the 1974 meeting WL had been speaking for some time about the need to abandon the old cities and had mentioned Cleveland and Chicago in particular. TC stood up and in a very respectful way tried to give a gentle testimony for the older cities from his experience. WL shouted in a very angry way for him to sit down since his view had already been discussed before the meetings and then something to the effect that TC did not know what he was talking about. Bill Barker and Jim R. later tried to speak on behalf of Chicago and WL allowed them but his face and body language expressed his disapproval. He basically told them they could do what they wanted to do. There was no pleasantness in his voice or way. Everyone was clear what he really thought. There was also ridicule directed toward James B. and John I. for the way they had lead the church in LA but they were pretty much lumped in with all the elders and co-workers who needed to get with the new program.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge

[YP0534]

Does anyone know where I could get a set of the 2 Volumes of The Stream as it was published in 1977?

I haven't been able to locate used online.

PM me if so.

Thanks.

[finallyprettyokay]

Hope wrote: While MR attempted to shake things up he never sought to throw anyone under the bus. WL had no problem with jettisoning brothers. His motto was "shed two tears and go on."


Ohio wrote: Hope, your comments about Max are notable. We always heard that he was extremely ambitious, usurping power and position, while WL, otoh, was always kind, benevolent, spiritual, magnanimous, and godly -- though perhaps a little "vulnerable" to the likes of Max -- because he (WL) was somewhat distant and "removed" from the "politics" of leadership, in order that he could devote himself exclusively to prayer, ministry, and the study of the scripture. Apparently that was a public relations message.




I have known Max since I was 17. That's a couple of years. (39, almost 40, to be exact). I just can't tell you all how much this man and his wife have meant to me over all these years. I claim no sense of objectivity when discussing them.

Oh, it is just so hard for me to write what I am wanting to here. I keep deleting everything I type.

Hope wrote: he also had many good points and I can dig out some helpful actions on his part and he did shake up some apathy that needed shaking up.


I can say so many things. And at the same time, I feel like there is just no way to say this at all.

Yes, he had many good points. And he did not try to throw anyone under the bus. WL's motto was 'shed two tears and go on' ? Oh, my word. That is anti-everything Jesus is. We love Him, because He first loved us.

WL was vulnerable to Max? Not even. It was clearly the other way around.

Yeah, Ohio. You nailed it. It was a public relations message of the first degree.

Boy, we all have our hearts on our sleeves at times here, don't we? Hope, you have written several times about reactions to things people have written that put you the floor. (I think those were your words, I'm writing from memory.) This is one of those times for me.

I look forward to some writing that may shed a more complex light than we have been used to hearing concerning this brother . Be gentle, everyone. Remember, he was one of the first quarantined.

I love this man. It's that simple.

FPO

[TLFisher]

Originally Posted by Hope

The turn away from the vision WL had regarding the Practice of the Local Church Life began in January 1974 at the very first special elders and co-workers conference.

Don, thank you for the points you outlined. For many years I had looked at 1974 as the pivotal point for the Recoveries descent. During these years I was a young child so I lacked the information you are now disclosing. I only knew how I was directly impacted.
Fast forward a good 30 years to our recent past in the last five years...in some local churches the question has been raised how come there hasn't been an increase?
What these points you mention contribute to why there hasn't been an increase among the local churches thus far in the 21st century?
Or has the ministry become such an emphasis for fellowship that it precludes Christians from meeting generally and practically?

Terry

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

Actually Hope I know people who know Max personally and I have read some of his writings. That's how I know he is not stupid. You mention Orange County and Texas but my impression from your posts is Max wanted to take over the entire movement in place of Witness Lee. I find that quite a stretch considering most of the movement is in the Far East - then and now. Mr. Rapoport would have had to be the village idiot to think he could take over a predominantly Asian movement when he did not know their culture or language. He may have "wanted" to in an abstract kind of way the same way I wouldn't mind a private jet to avoid the airport lines when I travel. But for him to really think it possible in practical terms...I'm not buying it. Do you seriously think he thought he could get the Far Eastern leadership on board to agree with him in taking Lee's place? I don't. Has he directly admitted this to you Hope i.e. that he thought taking over the entire movement including the Far East was a realistic possibility?

Regarding my term "passive wimps" I am not necessarily referring to anyone in the LCS but as a general statement. Further my criteria for leadership is not merely the ability to get things done but of course the biblical standards as described in 1st Timothy.

[djohnson(XLCmember)]

Nell LCS = local church system.

[Hope]

Originally Posted by djohnson

Actually Hope I know people who know Max personally and I have read some of his writings. That's how I know he is not stupid. You mention Orange County and Texas but my impression from your posts is Max wanted to take over the entire movement in place of Witness Lee. I find that quite a stretch considering most of the movement is in the Far East - then and now. Mr. Rapoport would have had to be the village idiot to think he could take over a predominantly Asian movement when he did not know their culture or language. He may have "wanted" to in an abstract kind of way the same way I wouldn't mind a private jet to avoid the airport lines when I travel. But for him to really think it possible in practical terms...I'm not buying it. Do you seriously think he thought he could get the Far Eastern leadership on board to agree with him in taking Lee's place? I don't. Has he directly admitted this to you Hope i.e. that he thought taking over the entire movement including the Far East was a realistic possibility?

Regarding my term "passive wimps" I am not necessarily referring to anyone in the LCS but as a general statement. Further my criteria for leadership is not merely the ability to get things done but of course the biblical standards as described in 1st Timothy.

Hello djohnson,


You are cracking me up. You know people who know Max and have read some of his writings. The only writings by Max I am aware of were articles in the "Rivers" magazine. Is this what you had reference to or has MR written more formal articles? The "Rivers" articles were more in the way of testimony and exhortation and I cannot see getting a gage of a person's intellect from those articles.

MR was not dumb but very capable. He rose to the top of the LCS in a very short time. He is very talented. He believed he would be heading up the LCs in North America, Europe and Africa etc. He was not going around with a map staking claim to this country and that. He wanted to lead men, people and I can never remember him referring to the Far East as a sphere where he expected to have direct influence. He did visit there and was a speaker in conferences.

MR was the ultimate people person. He was interested in leading and coordinating with elders, churches and co-workers. He believed there were many short comings in the leading ones during those days and they needed leadership and it happened to be his leadership. There can be no doubt that MR and his inner circle saw him as the heir apparent to Witness Lee and some told me the mantle had already been passed.

dj, don't think MR's ambition was something sinister. He loved to preach the gospel and see sinners saved. He believed the LCs were not up to standard here. He loved to shepherd new believers and see them live a happy strong Christian life. All of us have mixed motives. He also enjoyed the spot light and enjoyed being up front. Look up extrovert in the dictionary and you will see a picture of a young Max Rapoport.

Enough said on this subject. dj, be at peace. But it was a power struggle.

In Christ Jesus there is hope for us all,

Hope, Don Rutledge