1 Timothy 4:1-3 Deception and Seducing

[Matt Anderson]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

I just want to say this, all of those steps are done by a person willingly and with full consent. God doesn’t chain anyone to His ways or a slave master that beats anyone into submission. This is spoken of people who were believers or at least of people who have some basic knowledge of what faith is. They departed from it, after knowing what the truths are.

I would like to add something here regarding what Paul is saying and connect to the subject of this thread at the end. While I agree that the steps related to 1 Tim 4:1-2 are done willingly and with consent, they may not be done with full awareness (i.e. knowing) that you are in collusion with (or under the influence of) a seducing spirit or their doctrines (the doctrines of demons). There are teachings that are attractive to our "flesh" which we latch onto with our hearts and minds. Teachings that are attractive to our "flesh" have the potential to be "doctrines of demons". In all the groups like the LC/LSM there are special teachings which are presented as distinctive to the group. These special teachings must be looked at very, very closely because many of them are "doctrines of demons". They can be doctrines of demons in their basic substance OR in how they are emphasized.

Example Teaching: "We are the unique expression of the body of Christ on the earth today" -- this is a doctrine of demons taught by a seducing spirit. It is not taught only in the LC, but in many other groups. Most ex-LCer's I know remember this teaching being shared in the past. Most of them took hold of this teaching willingly, but they did not know it was a doctrine of demons. If you still hold this idea at all, we can discuss it in light of the revealed truth of God's Word and character and how it really is a doctrine of demons.

The main point I am making is that to come into the state of 1 Timothy 4:1-2 (under the influence of seducing spirits and doctrines of demons) does not mean that you KNOW you are under their influence or teaching. It can be done without knowing. It can be done while thinking you are fulling supporting the "truth of the Bible". Your heartfelt belief in something that is true, but that is actually taught by a seducing spirit can lead you on the progression in 1 Timothy 4:1-2.

1. Depart from faith.
2. Giving heed to seducing spirits.
3. Speaking lies.
4. Having their conscience seared.

In simpler terms, we should be aware that we are ALL subject to the deceptions of the Enemy. It is only by following Jesus in a manner that can be costly at times that you will be delivered from all these deceptions.

For me, this journey of being delivered started one day while mowing the lawn at my parents house. I was about 17 and while mowing the lawn I had a realization that seemed to come from nowhere, but now I know it was the Spirit of God. I realized that I was deceived. I was born to parents under deception who were also born to parents under deception. I realized that I did not know the ways in which I was deceived, but that Satan had been around for millenia while I had only been around for a few years. So, I started a journey from that point under the presumption that I was deceived and I asked the Lord to reveal the truth to me. I did not demand it. I did not think it would happen overnight. From that point forward, I presumed that I was deceived. I still presume that I am still deceived, but God has shone a lot of light into my life and my heart. I have been delivered from many things including many "doctrines of demons" which were presented to me by "seducing spirits".

What is a "seducing spirit"? I have come to believe it is actually quite simple. It is a demon who carries knowledge or insight that YOU WANT. The things that you DESIRE to know are their targets. If you will receive their "offering" in the form of a "doctrine of demons" and lay hold of it then they can lead you off target in your walk with God.

As it relates to this thread and whether some christians could experience some amount of the millenial kingdom in "outer darkness" where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth" there is a DESIRE to KNOW what will happen in advance. In truth, it is a "fleshly" desire to KNOW that you won't be part of that. We prefer to hear that it is not for any christian to put our mind at ease. In truth, we cannot know for sure and we have to be willing to live with the unknown. While holding this unknown in our heart, we have to follow God. We have to trust in our good Father and ask Him to help us to be good children. As children, we do not know, see or understand everything. This is especially true for the things that God only provided partial information. Our seeing in part and knowing in part is intentional on God's part. It is what positions us to exercise faith in Him.

Matt

P.S. As a "fun" exercise try reading the Declaration of Independence of the United States of America and asking yourself, are there "doctrines of demons" in it that you believe in? ...any discussion on this topic would be outside the scope of this forum. Just a provocative question to consider...

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

... I realized that I was deceived. I was born to parents under deception who were also born to parents under deception. I realized that I did not know the ways in which I was deceived, but that Satan had been around for millenia while I had only been around for a few years. So, I started a journey from that point under the presumption that I was deceived and I asked the Lord to reveal the truth to me. I did not demand it. I did not think it would happen overnight. From that point forward, I presumed that I was deceived. I still presume that I am still deceived, but God ...

Matt,

Thanks for this word. I think this is a very healthy approach to spiritual matters. I think asking the Lord to reveal the truth is particularly important, rather than rely on the enticing words of man's wisdom or our own clever minds. Our clever minds can be influenced by seducing spirits, and we should presume we are deceived until God reveals otherwise...personally.

This should include our own personal interpretation of scriptures. Our interpretation of scripture must be tested and confirmed by the Spirit of God.

Nell

[Paul Vusik]

Matt,
I appreciate your input and I can see how you would come to those conclusions. I actually did think and prayed about whether the people do this “unknowingly or without full awareness”, but after, I realized it’s not so. When Paul wrote those two verses, there is a clear mention in there, that’s referring to their conscience. If they didn’t know or had no awareness then why would their conscience become seared? Why is that the end result?

I believe that people who go on that path, are fully aware of what’s going on. Holy Spirit works in born again believers, and conscience is one of the avenues that’s used for warning and alarming people that they are starting to depart, listening and heeding to other things, and so on. It is when all of those things are ignored and thrown into trash, because it fits them and their hearts desires better, then the warnings are no longer can be heard. From that point, there is no longer any awareness of what’s going on.

Also, I think that there is a huge difference between deception, and lack of knowledge and understanding. I can fully admit, that there are subjects I will not touch or comment on, and not because I think a certain way or I believe that I’m “deceived” as you stated. I can say, I haven’t prayed or studied about a particular matter/doctrines, and have nothing that I can offer to the discussion. Spiritual maturity doesn’t come instantly or over night, and while you or I or anyone else is growing in knowledge of Him and His ways, that doesn’t mean that this process is deceiving. Some need milk, and some need meat, as Paul states in his writings, or as John said, children, young men, fathers.

But also I see a very big difference between deception and seduction, just look what deception is:

-the act of causing someone to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid.

Vs

What is seduction or being seduced is:

-to persuade to disobedience or disloyalty.
-to lead astray usually by persuasion or false promises.

Paul, used the word “seducing” spirits, and not people being deceived in this particular situation. As a basic definition of it above, there are things that are offered, promises made, satisfaction guarantees and encouragement and persuasion that takes place. It requires one to give something up or “depart for greener pasture”, or disloyalty / disobedience, to gain something in return. This is what “seduction” is, and it’s done with full consent. Usually or in most cases, spiritual seduction happens because people are seeking higher “spiritual satisfactions”, that are not offered or found anywhere in the Bible.

It’s very easy to dismiss it or just chalk it up to “I didn’t know”, but based even on my own experience and what I did, I knew, I was aware to some extent, maybe not to what I know now, but enough to say no. But I counted my worldly pleasures and how people will look at me, and what they think of me, way more important that what God had said. I know it’s different in situations where you were born into something, so I can’t imagine those conversations that you have to have with God, and I’m sure we all learn things differently and God works differently in everyone’s life, unlike the LC, one size/template fits all.

[Matt Anderson]

First of all, I appreciate your thoughful reply. I have landed in a different place than you in my thinking, but I do understand where you are coming from on this subject.

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

Matt,
I believe that people who go on that path, are fully aware of what’s going on. Holy Spirit works in born again believers, and conscience is one of the avenues that’s used for warning and alarming people that they are starting to depart, listening and heeding to other things, and so on. It is when all of those things are ignored and thrown into trash, because it fits them and their hearts desires better, then the warnings are no longer can be heard. From that point, there is no longer any awareness of what’s going on.

I agree that the Holy Spirit is a true and faithful witness inside us. I agree that we make choices and decisions that progressively sear our conscience to an insensitive state. I also believe that we can interact with spirits that are not the Holy Spirit in our pursuit of the "knowledge of God" because we DESIRE to know things. This DESIRE makes us susceptible to communication from seducing spirits without knowing they are seducing spirits. In my journey with the Lord, I have become aware not just by analysis, but various experiences that many believers interact with seducing spirits while thinking they are interacting with the Holy Spirit. Once you are trained, you can separate between them and not interact with seducing spirits but there is almost no one that will talk about this matter.

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

If they didn’t know or had no awareness then why would their conscience become seared?

Here is what I think is important to consider. It has been observed through various social science studies that children absorb everything in their environments without any kind of "critical filter" up until about the age of 13. Different children develop a "critical filter" at different points, but it is around the age 13 (on average). So, all of the inputs that go into a child up until around the age of 13 when they begin to question things is resident in them. This why we can have such different cultures for various groupings on the earth. The "teachings" received before the activation of a "critical filter" are their beliefs (or cult/culture). These "teachings" are programmed outside of the awareness of every child. In most cases, a portion of these beliefs are never critically analyzed at any point in life. They are assumptive/presumptive. I am certain that every single child is programmed with a mixture of truth and deception by their parents and their environment. Now, let's consider how the soul can be damaged by the environment we grow up in and how this can establish a seared conscience without awareness. I believe all us are born whole, our souls are damaged to some degree (greater or lesser) by our upbringing, and then if we are saved and enter into a life of submitted discipleship our souls are restored (Psalms 23) to their original state.

Taking an extreme example, consider a child who grows up in an abusive home. They are programmed with a sense of normality that is plainly sinful. They are also damaged and have to learn how to cope with a hostile environment. It is consistently observable that a child in a hostile environment will enter into patterns of sinfulness in response as defensive/protective measures to survive. So, they have established patterns of thought and behavior that are implicityly sinful and they are not aware without healthy parenting. I believe a child like this has a completely desensitized conscience based on their choices and decisions even before they have reached the point where they can process anything with a critical filter. I believe there are many people who are in various states of damage who come into groups like the LC. More significantly damaged souls are implicitly more open to interaction with seducing spirits than those who have less damaged souls.

This is the briefest form of explanation I can give on how a conscience can become seared without really realizing it.

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

Also, I think that there is a huge difference between deception, and lack of knowledge and understanding.

I agree they are different. Deception is simply a state of implicitly OR explicitly believing something that is not true. You can be in a state of deception with little or much knowledge. In essence, you can be in a state of deception with or without knowing it.

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

But also I see a very big difference between deception and seduction, just look what deception is:
-the act of causing someone to accept as true or valid what is false or invalid.
Vs
What is seduction or being seduced is:

-to persuade to disobedience or disloyalty.
-to lead astray usually by persuasion or false promises.

I believe there is a difference between deception and seduction, but I also think they work hand in hand. Let's go back to the original example. In Genesis 3:1-6 we see both deception and seduction working together. Satan tempts Eve by the combined means of seduction and deception. It is not too hard to persuade someone to act against their conscience when you offer them something they desire.

Genesis 3:4 But the serpent said to the woman, “You shall not surely die. 5 For God knows that on the day you both eat from it, then your eyes will be opened and you both shall be like gods, knowing good and evil.” 6 When the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was a delight to the eyes, and the tree was desirable to make one wise, then she took from its fruit and she ate.

I believe this is the prototypical example from the Bible that explains the relationship between seduction and deception. If there was nothing seductive about the tree of knowledge of good and evil then Eve would have stuck with her first answer in response to Satan's initial approach to her.

Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more crafty than any other animal which Yahweh God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God indeed say, ‘You shall not eat from any tree in the garden’?” 2 The woman said to the serpent, “From the fruit of the trees of the garden we may eat, 3 but from the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, God said, ‘You shall not eat from it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die’.”

Why didn't Eve just repeat that what God had said when Satan further tempted her? She didn't because "she saw the tree was good for food and that it was a DELIGHT to the eyes, and the tree was DESIRABLE to make one wise".

It is true in this example that she was aware of what she was doing was against God's command, but her desire overrode.

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

Paul, used the word “seducing” spirits, and not people being deceived in this particular situation. As a basic definition of it above, there are things that are offered, promises made, satisfaction guarantees and encouragement and persuasion that takes place. It requires one to give something up or “depart for greener pasture”, or disloyalty / disobedience, to gain something in return. This is what “seduction” is, and it’s done with full consent. Usually or in most cases, spiritual seduction happens because people are seeking higher “spiritual satisfactions”, that are not offered or found anywhere in the Bible.

In our day and age, people want the same thing Eve did. They DESIRE things that MAKE ONE WISE. This is one of the things that the seducing spirits offer. They offer knowledge of spiritual things. This DESIRE to KNOW is in everyone I have ever met. Seducing spirits can also offer other things as you describe ("spiritual satisfactions"), but knowledge of spiritual things is one of their offerings.

The Bible defines the sin of divination. Divination is to gain spiritual knowledge (from beyond the physical realm) from another source than God. I have seen this happen to others. I have committed the sin of divination before I understood what it really was. It is a subtle sin, but it is very real and something that basically every single Christian on earth today has committed without knowing it. I know that may be shocking to hear, but once you understand the reality of the sin of divination then your eyes are opened and it is shocking to realize how prevalent it is.

I have asked numerous ex-LCer's what the attraction to the LC was for them. There are various answers, but the DESIRE to attain MORE KNOWLEDGE of God and the Bible is high on most people's list. They saw Witness Lee as a great teacher who KNEW SO MUCH about the Bible and they wanted to KNOW too. This forum has done a good job at highlighting many false teachings and doctrines of demons that emanate from the LC. If you only have a background with these bad doctrines from the LC, then you may not realize that the LC is not special. The exact same doctrines of demons are taught in other similar groups. This is no accident. The seducing spirits know what is attractive to believers. They know how to present their doctrines in a manner that many people will not perceive that is not the Holy Spirit.

I know our side discussion here is off-topic, but I will close with a connecting statement. This thread is, in part, from a DESIRE to know whether christians will have to endure some or all of a thousand years of outer darkness. Witness Lee (and many other christian teachers) want to answer questions others have. Have Witness Lee (and other christian teachers) entered into interactions with seducing spirits to come up with some their teachings including subjects like the topic of this thread?

Matt

[Trapped]

To be honest, the turn the last portion of posts in this thread have taken has confused and concerned me. The statements that seem to be being made sound very much like the local church, quite frankly. Things like desiring to know things is somehow......bad? Things like we can never trust our clever minds?

These kind of statements are almost carbon copies of similar types of teachings propagated in the LC.

In contrast, the Bible speaks positively of knowledge, it says things like "My people are destroyed because of LACK of knowledge", it says things like we should be "be filled with all knowledge", and "excel in knowledge", etc....

I would understand if I was reading things like "the LC took advantage of the GOOD desire to know things...." but what I read makes it out more like the desire to know things itself is the bad thing. I simply do not agree here at all, if that is what is being said.

And in contrast, the Bible shows that mature believers can discern between good and evil. It shows that believers are entrusted with the ability to judge situations and with the responsibility to discern false teachings and deal with false teachers. I'm not sure where warnings about a believer's "clever mind" are found.

Sure, it exhorts us to be on guard not to be drawn away by deception, but to outright assume from the start that we are automatically deceived unless we receive specific confirmation otherwise? What power is being given to deceiving spirits here! It's like saying the evil spirits automatically start out winning by default every time. The Bible doesn't present things like that....at least to my recollection.

These kinds of warnings about knowledge and our own minds put too little stock in the beings God made in His own image, into whom He has poured out His Spirit.

Trapped

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

Taking an extreme example, consider a child who grows up in an abusive home. They are programmed with a sense of normality that is plainly sinful. They are also damaged and have to learn how to cope with a hostile environment. It is consistently observable that a child in a hostile environment will enter into patterns of sinfulness in response as defensive/protective measures to survive. So, they have established patterns of thought and behavior that are implicityly sinful and they are not aware without healthy parenting. I believe a child like this has a completely desensitized conscience based on their choices and decisions even before they have reached the point where they can process anything with a critical filter. I believe there are many people who are in various states of damage who come into groups like the LC. More significantly damaged souls are implicitly more open to interaction with seducing spirits than those who have less damaged souls.

This is the briefest form of explanation I can give on how a conscience can become seared without really realizing it.

Matt

Can you give a specific on what you mean by "It is consistently observable that a child in a hostile environment will enter into patterns of sinfulness in response as defensive/protective measures to survive"? I cannot think of a "consistently observable" scenario that would fit this statement.

Children from abusive homes have seared consciences? Given the broad spectrum of people who come from abusive homes.....I'm guessing a significant portion of those people would have a problem with that conclusion regarding their conscience...... Unless I'm missing something and you can add some details to explain this a bit further.

Trapped

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Matt Anderson

I know our side discussion here is off-topic, but I will close with a connecting statement. This thread is, in part, from a DESIRE to know whether christians will have to endure some or all of a thousand years of outer darkness. Witness Lee (and many other christian teachers) want to answer questions others have. Have Witness Lee (and other christian teachers) entered into interactions with seducing spirits to come up with some their teachings including subjects like the topic of this thread?

Matt

Matt,

I think that this is a good and healthy discussion to have on the matters that we both addressed. I don’t want to take any more posts in this thread regarding these matters, since they are way of topic, so one day maybe one of us can create another thread to continue the discussion. I’m not here to try to convince anyone about anything, I don’t believe in that approach. I believe what I have so far learned, experienced myself, and observed. I’ll share my experience, and what I’ve learned, and if God chooses to use it in any shape or form, so be it. If not, everyone has a spam folder, and should utilize it.

As far as you last point about the topic of this thread: I personally know people who live their every day lives, in fear and anxiety, about this subject. To just paint over with the broad stroke, the idea that ALL of these people are seeking KNOWLEDGE OR things beyond, is pretty ridiculous. These people are beat up and looking for the way to know what the truth is, if it’s even Biblical, or applies to them as they were brainwashed into. Knowledge has nothing to do with them, they are looking for someone to shine some light and point them to the right direction. This whole LC demonic approach to the fact that seeking correct answers (outside of LC), and looking for wisdom from God to lead you to the truth, which is NOT OFFERED IN THE LC, or in their garbage ministry, is just lame to say the least. NOT ALL KNOWLEDGE IS BAD! I can provide couple of dozens of Bible verse that say so. This idiotic, satan invented way that somehow you going to get truth by sitting on your ass, and listening to some man spew one dumb thing after another, is not going to get anyone anywhere ,I’m sorry. The fact that some of these people from LC, are even asking these questions, it should be used as a window to explain and show the answers rather than totally silence them from any future questions that they may have.

I’ll be honest, when I was going thru my process of getting out, I had nobody, not a single person to help me. I didn’t know that this forum existed, or that there are people who went through some of this already. I just sat there with my Bible and freaking cried to the Lord to get me on the right path. So, I know how difficult it is to even ask questions from people, and put yourself out there. Maybe I’m just making a big deal on this, but some of these people are just miserable. Maybe it’s the conscience that still functioning there a bit, that tells them to seek something, that they will to come here and ask these questions.

LC, has created one of the most unhealthiest environments for people to be in. It’s not by accident that there are a lot of people that will never publicly admit to it, but in their heart know that there are major red flags. I have spoken to quite a few of them, but the fact that they fear the endless consequences that the man tell them will happen, drives them back to those man made broken cisterns that hold no water.

Again, I refer it to some people, and not all that are seeking answers to this matters.

Sorry if this sounds more like a rant, but that whole idea that all knowledge (outside of the plague dispensary, AKA LSM and the LC) is evil, because it’s from the specific tree, is another one of those “demonic doctrines”, that blinds people from advancing in their spiritual growth.

Lastly, as someone that has experienced physical, sexual, emotional abuse as a child growing up, and most of it was done by the so called Christian men, I will have to disagree with your assertion that somehow my conscience was messed up or (seared) by those experiences and the pain that took decades to get over, (but by the mercy of God). If anything, it actually did the opposite. If it wasn’t for my conscience and understanding even as a child, that what was happening was WRONG, I probably would not be here today, but be just another statistic.

Thanks

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Trapped

To be honest, the turn the last portion of posts in this thread have taken has confused and concerned me. The statements that seem to be being made sound very much like the local church, quite frankly. Things like desiring to know things is somehow......bad? Things like we can never trust our clever minds?

These kind of statements are almost carbon copies of similar types of teachings propagated in the LC.

In contrast, the Bible speaks positively of knowledge, it says things like "My people are destroyed because of LACK of knowledge", it says things like we should be "be filled with all knowledge", and "excel in knowledge", etc....

I would understand if I was reading things like "the LC took advantage of the GOOD desire to know things...." but what I read makes it out more like the desire to know things itself is the bad thing. I simply do not agree here at all, if that is what is being said.

And in contrast, the Bible shows that mature believers can discern between good and evil. It shows that believers are entrusted with the ability to judge situations and with the responsibility to discern false teachings and deal with false teachers. I'm not sure where warnings about a believer's "clever mind" are found.

Sure, it exhorts us to be on guard not to be drawn away by deception, but to outright assume from the start that we are automatically deceived unless we receive specific confirmation otherwise? What power is being given to deceiving spirits here! It's like saying the evil spirits automatically start out winning by default every time. The Bible doesn't present things like that....at least to my recollection.

These kinds of warnings about knowledge and our own minds put too little stock in the beings God made in His own image, into whom He has poured out His Spirit.Trapped

On the contrary:

THE SPIRITUAL BELIEVER EXHORTED TO "JUDGE ALL THINGS"
The duty of this examination of spiritual things is strongly urged by the Apostle Paul, again and again. "He that is spiritual judgeth (margin, examineth, or, as in the Greek, investigates and decides), all things" (1 Cor. 2: 15). The "spiritual" believer is to use his "judgment," which is a renewed faculty if he is a "spiritual man," and this spiritual examination, or judging, is mentioned as operative in connection with "things of the Spirit of God" (1 Cor 2: 14), showing how God Himself honours the intelligent personality of the man He re-creates in Christ, by inviting the "judging" and "examining" of His own workings by His Spirit; so that even "the things of the Spirit" are not to be received as of Him, without being examined, and "spiritually discerned" as of God. ...

War on the Saints, pp. 56-57, Jesse Penn-Lewis

Maybe it would be helpful to consider that the converse of "assume you are deceived" is to "assume you are NOT deceived" and that you have arrived at the full knowledge of the truth of a matter. This is the "healthy" part...assuming you don't know the truth of a matter...until you do.

HOW THE EVIL SPIRITS DECEIVE BY "DOCTRINES"
How the evil spirits as teachers get men to receive their teachings, may be summed up in three specific ways:
(1) ...
(2)By mixing their "teachings" with the man's own reasonings, so that he thinks he has come to his own conclusions. The teachings of the deceiving spirits in this form are so natural in appearance, that they seem to come from the man himself, as the fruit of his own mind, and reasoning. They counterfeit the working of the human brain, and inject thoughts and suggestions into the human mind; for they can directly communicate with the mind, apart from gaining possession (in any degree) of the mind or body.

Those who are thus deceived, believe that they have come to their own conclusions, by their own reasonings, ignorant that the deceiving spirits have incited them to "reason" without sufficient data, or on a wrong premise, and thus come to false conclusions. The teaching spirit has achieved his own end by putting a lie in the man's mind, through the instrumentality of a false reasoning.
Ch. 1, p. 18

Nell

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

Matt,

I think that this is a good and healthy discussion to have on the matters that we both addressed. I don’t want to take any more posts in this thread regarding these matters, since they are way off topic, so one day maybe one of us can create another thread to continue the discussion. ...

Done.

Nell,
Admin

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Trapped

To be honest, the turn the last portion of posts in this thread have taken has confused and concerned me. The statements that seem to be being made sound very much like the local church, quite frankly. Things like desiring to know things is somehow......bad? Things like we can never trust our clever minds?

These kind of statements are almost carbon copies of similar types of teachings propagated in the LC.

Concerning the exposition I Timothy 4.1-3 I couldn't agree more.

Concerning the "doctrines of demons," Paul cites two examples, (1) Forbidding to marry, and (2) Abstaining from certain foods. No other examples were given. These were not suddenly sprung on Timothy, since Paul had addressed Marriage and Foods on numerous occasions prior to this.

What is most surprising is the neglect of two cited doctrines, and the jump to numerous speculations. The priesthood of the Catholic church is built on the first doctrine, and the Jewish religion Kosher regulations qualify for the second doctrine.

As Trapped alluded to, this is so typical of LC ministry. They regularly abandon the plain text of scripture, and then jump to judgment on their latest pet peeve. When I left that system, it was using drums in the young people's meetings that was branded "doctrines of demons from deceiving spirits." Cuz WL said so!

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Ohio

Concerning the exposition I Timothy 4.1-3 I couldn't agree more.

Concerning the "doctrines of demons," Paul cites two examples, (1) Forbidding to marry, and (2) Abstaining from certain foods. No other examples were given. These were not suddenly sprung on Timothy, since Paul had addressed Marriage and Foods on numerous occasions prior to this.

What is most surprising is the neglect of two cited doctrines, and the jump to numerous speculations. The priesthood of the Catholic church is built on the first doctrine, and the Jewish religion Kosher regulations qualify for the second doctrine.

As Trapped alluded to, this is so typical of LC ministry. They regularly abandon the plain text of scripture, and then jump to judgment on their latest pet peeve. When I left that system, it was using drums in the young people's meetings that was branded "doctrines of demons from deceiving spirits." Cuz WL said so!

Hey Ohio, brother,

Since I’m or some of us here are FOB, (fresh off the boat), and are still trying to figure out things that happened with us there, and what’s happening to people around us, would you be kind enough to offer some thoughts on the conclusions you came to? or why things are the way they are? You previously mentioned that you have done a lot of research into this, so what are the causes for this total blindness and bondage? Since it’s not spirits, it’s not the doctrines, it’s not all teachings of LC, but just some of them. What is it that’s holds people like hostages under the gun point?

We probably have a long way to go to get to a level where we or I, speaking for myself will fully understand what the core issue is that’s there, but maybe since you are so far removed and ahead of the game you would share some things, and maybe we will just end this discussion altogether.
Thanks

[Paul Vusik]

Hey Nell or Matt,

Since both of you seems to believe that “one should consider himself deceived” as a born again believer, until a certain “revelations” occur, or whatever the methodology that you subscribe too happens. Besides quoting these same people that helped get this whole “recovery” junk on the tracks, do you even have a single Bible verse that says anything like that about a born again believer?
I haven’t seen one that supports any of this kind of ideologies as a healthy Biblical practice.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

Hey Nell or Matt,

Since both of you seems to believe that “one should consider himself deceived” as a born again believer, until a certain “revelations” occur, or whatever the methodology that you subscribe too happens. Besides quoting these same people that helped get this whole “recovery” junk on the tracks, do you even have a single Bible verse that says anything like that about a born again believer?
I haven’t seen one that supports any of this kind of ideologies as a healthy Biblical practice.

Paul,

If you read the original post, Matt shared an experience he had with the Lord where the Lord told him essentially that he was believing something that was not true. What should Matt have done? Should he have told the Lord...no Lord...I'm not deceived. I'm good.

The point is to test all things, especially in spiritual matters. I believe this is both scriptural and healthy.

As believers, when we were born again, we were babes. We were not born again with a full knowledge of the truth. We need to grow and mature. In every area of our Christian lives, we need to grow and mature. We have an enemy who lies to us...the father of lies. We are told, in the beginning, that the serpent was more subtle than every beast of the field. Don't believe everything you hear...test.

In the "early days" I remember hearing an elder who was speaking to the congregation say "something" and my immediate reaction was "he didn't mean that like it sounded...". I KNEW something was wrong, but I ignored the alarm. I wish I remembered what he said, but I don't. I do clearly remember the warning but I didn't pay attention, I continued down a long road of ignoring warnings until I couldn't ignore them anymore.

I assumed what I heard in the meetings was true, when the Spirit of God told me otherwise...in a way that I remember many years later...to this day. So this is the point. Test all things...including what I said...as you have done. Thank you.

Nell

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Nell

Paul,

If you read the original post, Matt shared an experience he had with the Lord where the Lord told him essentially that he was believing something that was not true. What should Matt have done? Should he have told the Lord...no Lord...I'm not deceived. I'm good.

The point is to test all things, especially in spiritual matters. I believe this is both scriptural and healthy.

As believers, when we were born again, we were babes. We were not born again with a full knowledge of the truth. We need to grow and mature. In every area of our Christian lives, we need to grow and mature. We have an enemy who lies to us...the father of lies. We are told, in the beginning, that the serpent was more subtle than every beast of the field. Don't believe everything you hear...test.

In the "early days" I remember hearing an elder who was speaking to the congregation say "something" and my immediate reaction was "he didn't mean that like it sounded...". I KNEW something was wrong, but I ignored the alarm. I wish I remembered what he said, but I don't. I do clearly remember the warning but I didn't pay attention, I continued down a long road of ignoring warnings until I couldn't ignore them anymore.

I assumed what I heard in the meetings was true, when the Spirit of God told me otherwise...in a way that I remember many years later...to this day. So this is the point. Test all things...including what I said...as you have done. Thank you.

Nell

Nell,


I’m all for testing everything, and more than that. After my experience with the LC, I triple check and then some. But the bigger question is, what and how does anyone test things? And what is the ultimate and final confirmation of everything? Is there one? I believe so, and without questions, that’s revealed for us by the Word of God. You can only test something against another thing if you know what 100% true answer is.

But the bigger issue, that I believe has destroyed and damaged a lot of people, is the issue of misunderstanding (in my personal opinion) of the function of our spirit vs the Bible’s description of being filled with the Holy Spirit, and walking by His guidance. The LC, and some others, including all of the people that were instrumental in mentorship of both man that invented the “recovery”, abandoned the idea of Biblical approach when it comes to this issue, and promoted the idea of “self or personal spirit guidance”. If you read closely, a lot of their writings, even the quote that you posted here, you will see the subtle distortion to Biblical approach, that’s replaced by own “renewed faculty” approach.

I believe that we should ask ourselves these questions;
1). Can my own spirit even be functioning without the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?
2). Does the Bible, as the written Word, instructs us to be led by our own spirit or to follow the leading of the Holy Spirit?
3). Do we, as human beings, have power over the Holy Spirit, or can commands, demand, or even direct it as how it leads us and how it flows?
4). What does the Holy Spirit do, and how does He lead us and where? How do you test all these “leadings”, and have 100% certainty that it is genuine work of God?


All of those answers are available in the Bible, and I believe that misunderstanding and even subtle distortion of those things, will end up leading you away from the walking by faith, to seeking guidance and walking by sight. Looking for experiences to receive personal confirmations, testing things with your own “renewed faculties”, and abandonment of the Holy Spirit led, and guided life.

LC is a perfect example of that, in it’s promotion of “own spirit guidance”. How many times you were told that you need to “get into a spirit”, or you need to do spiritual gymnastics, rather than ask Holy Spirit to lead you?

In John 3:8 it says about how spirit operates,

8*The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

That’s the life of a true born again believers, who don’t trust in anything of their own, zero, but trust and totally rely on the work of the Holy Spirit. And where does He leads you? Only to Christ, points you to His work, His Word, which is the only and the ultimate confirmation of all testing and all revelations and leadings. After my experience in the LC, I’m very aware now how easy it is to exchange those two aspects, and end up being guided by your own imagination, conforming to an image or spirit of another man, or even worse, by some spirit that will lead you where you don’t want to go.

As I try to always say when it come to these difficult subjects, this is where I am, and that’s what I try to do, and practice for all of my testing, all of my confirmations. Even when it’s 99% true, but there is that last bit that just makes you feel uneasy, I will just toss it in the pile of my own imagination and desire, and wait until that beautiful leading comes like a wind, that’s in the perfect harmony with and confirmed by the ultimate test, the Word of God. I would just encourage people to pray and search the scriptures for answers rather than another source that may lead you further into the woods. Don’t fall for another man, you will be disappointed once again.

Remember, most things that we were taught by the LC, were claimed to be true leadings, or true revelations, “I’m one with the spirit of God”, or even going as far as claiming they know all Gods heart’s desires beyond everyone that existed prior to these man. Unfortunately, most if not all of their leading and revelations have ultimately failed the test of written Word.
So what, and who was leading them? And was there any testing to even speak of, or just “I was told so and so, therefore it was God?

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

Nell,

I’m all for testing everything, and more than that. After my experience with the LC, I triple check and then some. But the bigger question is, what and how does anyone test things? And what is the ultimate and final confirmation of everything? Is there one? I believe so, and without questions, that’s revealed for us by the Word of God. You can only test something against another thing if you know what 100% true answer is.
...

Paul,

When I stopped meeting with the Local Church of Witness Lee, I also stopped reading the Bible. I told the Lord when I left, "please don't let go of me" and "please don't make me go back there." I was afraid that if I read the Bible, He would make me go back. For 4 years I didn't touch the Bible. Then years later, a former member suggested that I "read it like it was a book." So I did. I wasn't looking for answers. I wasn't testing anything that I was aware of. I was just reading the Bible. It was amazing. It was a like a new experience altogether.

I don't know for sure what was happening, but looking back, I can say, the Lord did exactly what I asked of Him: He "didn't let go of me", and He "didn't make me go back". Maybe the verse "cast all your cares upon Him for He cares for you" applies.

This was my personal experience with the Lord, and remains so until this day. I talk to him. If something is bothering me or if I need something, I just tell him. I don't get an immediate thunderbolt answer, usually, but I do get an answer...after which, I thank Him. I think my experience was then and is now, to "know him", in the sense that Paul prayed "that I may know him".

To me, knowing Him was/is more important than figuring out the Bible. I believe this is what helps me to listen and understand and pay attention to warnings and red flags. It also helps when I have a question.

So your original question "But the bigger question is, what and how does anyone test things? And what is the ultimate and final confirmation of everything? Is there one?"...when you know the one in charge of all things, He will often throw a flag when something is not right as he did with Matt ("you are deceived"), and with me ("he didn't mean that like it sounded").

No one is suggesting a total reliance on the Holy Spirit. We are told to rely on the Spirit and the Word.

So, to go back to something Matt said or implied, our desire for knowledge may need to be adjusted from knowing "about" Him to knowing HIM. Personally. When you need to test...something...ask Him and wait.

Nell

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Nell

Paul,

When I stopped meeting with the Local Church of Witness Lee, I also stopped reading the Bible. I told the Lord when I left, "please don't let go of me" and "please don't make me go back there." I was afraid that if I read the Bible, He would make me go back. For 4 years I didn't touch the Bible. Then years later, a former member suggested that I "read it like it was a book." So I did. I wasn't looking for answers. I wasn't testing anything that I was aware of. I was just reading the Bible. It was amazing. It was a like a new experience altogether.

I don't know for sure what was happening, but looking back, I can say, the Lord did exactly what I asked of Him: He "didn't let go of me", and He "didn't make me go back". Maybe the verse "cast all your cares upon Him for He cares for you" applies.

This was my personal experience with the Lord, and remains so until this day. I talk to him. If something is bothering me or if I need something, I just tell him. I don't get an immediate thunderbolt answer, usually, but I do get an answer...after which, I thank Him. I think my experience was then and is now, to "know him", in the sense that Paul prayed "that I may know him".

To me, knowing Him was/is more important than figuring out the Bible. I believe this is what helps me to listen and understand and pay attention to warnings and red flags. It also helps when I have a question.

So your original question "But the bigger question is, what and how does anyone test things? And what is the ultimate and final confirmation of everything? Is there one?"...when you know the one in charge of all things, He will often throw a flag when something is not right as he did with Matt ("you are deceived"), and with me ("he didn't mean that like it sounded").

No one is suggesting a total reliance on the Holy Spirit. We are told to rely on the Spirit and the Word.

So, to go back to something Matt said or implied, our desire for knowledge may need to be adjusted from knowing "about" Him to knowing HIM. Personally. When you need to test...something...ask Him and wait.

Nell

Nell,

Good enough, I think I made my point at least somewhat clear. I’m not insisting on this or trying to prove to anyone that they should proceed into some other direction. I know you keep referring to this “knowledge”, idea as some kind of evil, or that I need to go back and read original post, which I did. I will just repeat what I already said: it’s not about knowledge, it’s not about studying Bible for the sake of studying, it’s not about trying to go and know things beyond from what is written. But it’s about not falling into the same hole that I just got out from by the mercy of God, where “God told me so”, therefore ya”ll better conform, was a thing. I don’t care if and angel from heaven transfigures himself in my living room and tells me things that I should do so and so, or that I have been duped or “deceived”, I will have some hard questions for him before I even consider anything he has to say. Sorry.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Nell

So your original question "But the bigger question is, what and how does anyone test things?

We test things by examining them carefully, somewhat like "due process" afforded by law. We don't just take one's word for everything, but seek out eye-witnesses who can provide valuable testimony, either supporting or contradicting.

That is why this forum has become so immensely valuable. Witnesses here are not silenced. There are no filters here. We are at liberty to scrutinize all dis-, mis-, and mal-information we have heard for years. The writings of so many past witnesses are also available, both from common members and leading insiders at the center of the movement. Character witnesses also provided testimony concerning these ones who have given us their account. Still others on this forum have had ample opportunity to rebut these witnesses, as in a court room cross-examination.

Serious exclusive and esoteric teachings and practices have been examined by many from diverse viewpoints and compared to scripture. Commonly accepted historical accounts have also been exposed as hagiographic frauds.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

Nell,

Good enough, I think I made my point at least somewhat clear. I’m not insisting on this or trying to prove to anyone that they should proceed into some other direction. I know you keep referring to this “knowledge”, idea as some kind of evil, or that I need to go back and read original post, which I did.

Paul,

Please reference the post/s wherein I said "knowledge" is some kind of evil. I do not believe, as a blanket statement, that knowledge is some kind of evil. I don't think I said that anywhere. Please backup your statement with fact and I will correct it. Knowledge is to be tested.

And yes, you need to go back and read the original post. Is that a problem?

Nell

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Nell

Paul,

Please reference the post/s wherein I said "knowledge" is some kind of evil. I do not believe, as a blanket statement, that knowledge is some kind of evil. I don't think I said that anywhere. Please backup your statement with fact and I will correct it. Knowledge is to be tested.

And yes, you need to go back and read the original post. Is that a problem?

Nell

Nell,
Your constant reference to Matt’s original post where he basically calls knowledge “fleshy desire”, and that “seducing spirits give knowledge” is what I’m referring to you calling knowledge evil. I disagree with those assessments, and I replied to Matt’s post as such.

Just FYI, I just read Matt’s post 3 times, and I don’t see anything that will change my thinking on any of his conclusions. I’m sorry if that goes against your experience as well. There isn’t anything personal, but to me, I’ll stand on something solid and verifiable, rather that trusting my own experiences and verifying those experiences by some other special leadings. If you have some special point that you keep referring to, please highlight it and make it specific what you are trying to say. I don’t speak mind games.

Also, I guess it’s pretty cool to assume that everyone who asks someone for Biblical reference, is only knows/seek things “about Him” and just trying to know the Bible, but those who are in the “know”, and have some special connections are the ones that actually “know Him”. I think I heard that before somewhere, but I will just assume that it’s not what was meant there.

Thanks

[Nell]

Originally Posted by Paul Vusik

Nell,
Your constant reference to Matt’s original post where he basically calls knowledge “fleshy desire”, and that “seducing spirits give knowledge” is what I’m referring to you calling knowledge evil. I disagree with those assessments, and I replied to Matt’s post as such.

What are you talking about???? My "constant reference" to Matt's post...? This topic is ABOUT Matt's post. This is a discussion, yet you falsely accuse me because I'm referring to the original post? That's absurd.

Again, I DID NOT call "knowledge evil." You read something into my post that is not there.

Just FYI, I just read Matt’s post 3 times, and I don’t see anything that will change my thinking on any of his conclusions. I’m sorry if that goes against your experience as well. There isn’t anything personal, but to me, I’ll stand on something solid and verifiable, rather that trusting my own experiences and verifying those experiences by some other special leadings. If you have some special point that you keep referring to, please highlight it and make it specific what you are trying to say. I don’t speak mind games.

Not trying to change your thinking...this is a discussion. You need to tell me what you need clarified. Specifically. I said what I meant. If you don't understand something, you need to be specific. I can't possibly guess what I need to clarify.

Are you calling my walk with the Lord "mind games"? Really? If you don't understand what I'm saying, say so. Be specific. Don't disparage my experiences, my walk with the Lord. Don't misrepresent my words to others who are reading this forum.

Also, I guess it’s pretty cool to assume that everyone who asks someone for Biblical reference, is only knows/seek things “about Him” and just trying to know the Bible, but those who are in the “know”, and have some special connections are the ones that actually “know Him”. I think I heard that before somewhere, but I will just assume that it’s not what was meant there.

You're mocking me. Your disparaging, twisting of my words make a mockery of my walk with the Lord...because...it's different from your own? Because you don't understand what I'm saying? If you can "assume that it's not what was meant" then why say it?

I'm not trying to change what you think. I'm just presenting my own view of 1 Tim. 4:1-3.

Nell

[Paul Vusik]

Originally Posted by Nell

What are you talking about???? My "constant reference" to Matt's post...? This topic is ABOUT Matt's post. This is a discussion, yet you falsely accuse me because I'm referring to the original post? That's absurd.

Again, I DID NOT call "knowledge evil." You read something into my post that is not there.

Ok, I guess I’m reading to much into some of your words, I’m sorry. Maybe the description of knowledge in the start of this discussion, just triggers some things that I heard from LC for over a decade. I guess there are couple of us who had the same response.

Originally Posted by Nell

Not trying to change your thinking...this is a discussion. You need to tell me what you need clarified. Specifically. I said what I meant. If you don't understand something, you need to be specific. I can't possibly guess what I need to clarify.

Again, I was trying to ask you if you would please pick a line or a statement or paragraph from Matt’s post, that you would like me to read over, so I could respond, thus why I used the term “mind game”, because I can’t guess a specific issue you would like me to re-read. That’s all.

Originally Posted by Nell

Are you calling my walk with the Lord "mind games"? Really? If you don't understand what I'm saying, say so. Be specific. Don't disparage my experiences, my walk with the Lord. Don't misrepresent my words to others who are reading this forum.

Not calling your experience or anyones experience anything, nor am I disparaging you in any way, if that came across like that I’m sorry. I’m just trying to understand what you are pointing me to, when you say; “need to go back and read the original post”.

Originally Posted by Nell

You're mocking me. Your disparaging, twisting of my words make a mockery of my walk with the Lord...because...it's different from your own? Because you don't understand what I'm saying? If you can "assume that it's not what was meant" then why say it?

I'm not trying to change what you think. I'm just presenting my own view of 1 Tim. 4:1-3.

Nell

Why do we need to get so personal as if somehow your walk, my walk, or anyone else’s is under attack? There is nothing personal or mocking that I said or implied, at least from my end. What I said and referred to, is the fact that for over a decade I have heard those almost exact words, when I asked for some Biblical clarifications on a specific issue. It has nothing to do with you, or how you go about your relationship with the Lord. No one can alter or change that, it’s between you and the Lord, or me and the Lord.
When someone tells me that I’m not trying to know Him, by asking simple questions, but I’m seeking to know just Bible or looking for knowledge, is an incorrect statement. I know Him, just as I’m sure you do, and we are all in different stages of our growth, maybe you just further ahead of me down that path, only God knows. So please understand that I have nothing, zero, or not in any way twisting your words. Again, sorry if that’s how it sounded. That’s why I said that “I will assume that it’s not what was meant by those words”

I can read almost every single reply to one of my posts as someone mocking my views or my walk, but I don’t. Just as in a normal healthy family, there are disagreements between the siblings and they could get in a way of a bigger picture, so are these discussions sometimes, could be used as a wedge, rather than for building and sharpening.

Thanks

[Nell]

Apologies accepted.

Nell

[Matt Anderson]

Slow to post again on this thread. Just got a little busy! First of all, to clarify, I do not think knowledge is implicitly bad or evil. My post may seem to indicate this, so I will try to balance what I was saying to some extent. My balancing may not satisfy because I know I am touching on a potentially sensitive subject. So, I do think that the pursuit of knowing more than what is freely given to us by God can lead to unknowing interactions with seducing spirits. God freely gives the knowledge that is healthy for each one of us through the Holy Spirit. It is when we seek to go beyond what is given that we can get in some trouble.

So, the main point I was referring to is about the boundaries on what we can know and the fact that there can be different sources of the knowledge. When it comes to spiritual knowledge, I believe that the source can be the Holy Spirit and, alternatively, it can be other spirits. I think it is important to be aware of sources other than the Holy Spirit even if the knowledge is coming straight out of the text of the Bible. I believe the Holy Spirit witnesses with our spirit when we are presented with spiritual knowledge. If the source is good, we can learn to hear with both our mind (strong and sound) and with the witness in our spirit.

Paul V is describing those who are struggling to address their current situation in the LC. All of us have experienced bad teaching (including "doctrines of demons") and if we pay attention to the witness in our spirit from the Holy Spirit, then we can reject it. This takes practice and testing to learn how to do it. The testing process has some objective aspects, but also some subjective ones. The objective ones are mostly based on true knowledge of the Word of God. The subjective ones are based on two things God says he gives us in our relating to Him. He gives us "life" and "peace" (Romans 8:6, Malachi 2:5-6). I have learned to reject things based on the witness in my Spirit even before I can explain to my mind why it should not accept it. When this happens to me, I am always left with a question in my mind which I put in front of God asking why I have a bad witness about something. In time, He has always given me the knowledge and understanding of why I had a bad witness in my spirit. It is not always right away.

Many groups claim to have special teachings/authority from God. They bring many other believers under bondage through their approach while the Holy Spirit is faithfully witnessing about the things that are true vs. false that come from others.

I believe there a few verses that address what I am saying.

1 Thessalonians 5:19 Do not quench the Spirit. 20 Do not despise prophecies, 21 but examine all things; hold fast to what is good.

I understand the word "prophecies" here to be the declaration of truths. It can be based on the Word of God. It can also be foretelling things which God has shared. I believe each believer is expected to examine (i.e. test, including spritually) ALL things. Paul did not write this to a special group in the church, but to all siblings in Christ commonly.

These verses freed me up a lot at one point. I realized my responsibility to test everything and to set aside the bad stuff. Since then, I can listen to very good teachers and still reject portions of what they say because the do not pass the "test". The test is both with my mind based on my knowledge and with my spirit based on a witness from the Holy Spirit and the presence of "life" and "peace" in my being. It has to pass both aspects of the "test". Secondly, I have learned that I can even receive from "bad teachers" (i.e. ones who have a lot of problems in their teaching) the good things that they share. In my experience, we have one true teacher, the Holy Spirit. God does use other lesser teachers who are not completely true like the Holy Spirit to communicate truths to us.

John 14:26 But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name—that one will teach you all things, and will remind you of everything that I said to you.

So, for me, the boundary on knowledge and seeking knowledge is about what God gives me in the realm of knowledge VS. the knowledge that I seek apart from my relationship with God. There can be a fine line here and it is one that others really can't judge in regards to someone else. It is something that each one of us has to work out in our relationship to God. I will close with a short example.

About 30 years ago, I found and bought a copy of War on the Saints by Jesse Penn Lewis. I wanted to read it. As soon as I started, I realized that something wasn't right. I paused and asked God about this book. It was very clear to me in that moment that I was NOT supposed to read it. I put it on my shelf. Over the next 25 years, I noticed the book several different times. I was still interested in reading it, but I still had a sense (which I believe was from the Holy Spirit) that the answer was "No", don't read it. About 5 years ago, I saw the book on my shelf and had a very different sense. I understood that not only was it a "Yes", but God wanted me to read it. A few months before, God had sent me a brother in Christ with another book. He told me that when he got up that morning, God pointed out the book on the shelf and said to him very clearly. That book is for Matt, give it to him. The book had a strong topical connection to War on the Saints. So, it seemed to me through these two things that God wanted me to gain additional knowledge of some of the matters covered by these books. As I read each of them, I realized why God had said "No" for many years. I wasn't ready and the knowledge in these books was for the right time. Before the right time, my Father in Heaven was saying, "Not yet, son".

This example is what I am talking about in regards to handling knowledge of various kinds of spiritual things. We should receive what we are given and not pluck the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil of our own will OR apart from our relationship with God or else we run the danger of interacting with "other spirits" who I believe are available and ready to teach a "twisted" form of the truth.

Matt