GraceAlone - The Lord is still healing us!

[GraceAlone]

I thought maybe I'd share a little bit more of my story, having just joined the Forum but having lurked for a while. :-)

My husband and I both grew up in the LC and in our youth, had mostly positive experiences as we learned to enjoy and walk with the Lord. And of course, we met each other! We had many sweet experiences with the precious saints in the LCs, far more positive ones than hurtful ones (although of course there were those too). In college, we were well cared for. After that ... rather a different story.

Over the years, many different experiences and observations began contributing to a cognitive dissonance that eventually grew almost unbearable for me. In the interest of not writing an entire book in this post, I'll just say that there are three legs to the proverbial stool: what is true and logical, what is Biblical, and what the LC culture and ministry teach and practice. These should be harmonious, but instead I found them to be more and more at odds with each other, especially as I met other believers, read other writings, and stopped being able to blithely explain everything away.

I'd like to offer a bit of encouragement to anyone who's currently feeling this way and because of circumstances (perhaps a spouse who's not on the same page, or having service commitments, or fear of what family members and other saints may say -- I had all of these!) feels hopeless and trapped. That was me. For a couple of years at least, I begged the Lord to change my heart and make me happy to stay in the LC, read the Life-studies, attend the conferences and talk about how great they were, as everyone around me seemed to be doing. I saw no way out or forward and shed many desperate tears. And yet, because I was reading the Word more, the Lord was able to speak faith and hope into me during some of my lowest moments. He showed me that if I would be willing to trust and obey Him, the huge obstacles I feared would be nothing to Him. And He reminded me that He saw and heard me. I often felt that in the eyes of the LC, I was barely a person -- more of a drone, and especially as a female, one without any voice. But the Lord is "the God who sees," and His compassion runs deep.

I'd also like to express my appreciation to the people on this forum who have been able to articulate observations and concerns as I was never fully able to. When I found this place several months ago, I read post after post that made me say, "What?! I thought I was the only one who noticed that! Or felt that way!" Some of the weight of isolation and loneliness and wondering if it was all in my head lifted. Thank you for that.

I will say that the path has not been easy, even after we left. We have tried to maintain friendly relations with some of those we had known well, but it is more awkward than I expected. No one is to blame for that. And although we are very much enjoying the place where the Lord led us to meet, it will likely take a long time to feel like home. It's like moving to a foreign country when you've lived in one culture your entire life. Even if you see the flaws in that native culture, it's still what's familiar.

The Lord is still healing us. I struggle with anger and shame over having been part of a system that, for all its good aspects, has been the cause of harm to so many people for so many years and with no apparent acknowledgment or repentance for that hurt -- even abuse. It's hard to see people I love still in it up to their eyeballs, and yet when I bring that inner conflict before the Lord, not wanting to judge them or poison our relationship, He reminds me that He has had mercy on me and my family in a thousand ways, and I can trust His path for every one of His children. He truly is faithful!

[Nell]

GraceAlone,

Thank you so much for joining the forum and sharing your testimony with us. Your testimony of the Lord's faithfulness and graciousness speaks of the Lord I know. He loves and cares for his children like no one else has the capacity or ability. Your words are encouraging to all of us!

Nell

[countmeworthy]

I echo Nell, our sister in Christ sentiments. While we or most of the people here in this forum are set free from the clutches and strongholds the LC or the LR once had on us, we all have memories. Sometimes we want a similar BUT purer and better church life we experienced from the good side of the LC.

Of course many did not depending on their locality, their leaders, their church life.


I for one am thankful for the help, the nurturing I received to help me stay rooted and grounded in Christ my Savior. Fortunately I did not go through the difficulties and HORRORS many here suffered through. May God continue to heal those beloved saints and restore their spiritual and emotional even physical health too.

I have learned not to throw the baby out with the bath water so to speak. No church group is perfect but our SAVIOR is. The more we learn to lean on Him for TRUTH, for everything in our lives from the simple things to the difficult challenges, our relationship with God will grow stronger and unshakeable. He will never leave us or forsake us. And we will become better spouses, better parents, better friends, better people.

That is His Word and His Promise. And the LORD is a promise keeper like nobody else! He will never leave us or forsake us. What a comforting and truthful Word!

Keep Psalm 37:4 near and dear to your heart and this goes for everyone.

“Delight yourself in the Lord and He will grant you the desires of your heart.”

When we sin or struggle with something not pleasing God, hand it over to our Redeemer. Practice applying the soul cleansing Blood of the Lamb daily. The Spirit of the Lord will surely strengthen us, guide us and renew our minds, transform us into the new creation we are in Christ Jesus.

Abundant blessings be upon us all.
Carol

[GraceAlone]

Thank you both! I know this will continue to be a long process, but I appreciate the encouragement from those ahead of us on that road. There’s just so much to sort through, and some questions we may never have answered until we meet the Lord.

[UtahGiant]

Thanks for a new thread on this it’s very encouraging and yes the Lord is still healing us. It’s difficult at times but there’s beauty in that struggle.

Originally Posted by GraceAlone

Over the years, many different experiences and observations began contributing to a cognitive dissonance that eventually grew almost unbearable for me. In the interest of not writing an entire book in this post, I'll just say that there are three legs to the proverbial stool: what is true and logical, what is Biblical, and what the LC culture and ministry teach and practice. These should be harmonious, but instead I found them to be more and more at odds with each other, especially as I met other believers, read other writings, and stopped being able to blithely explain everything away.

Do you have any concrete examples of things that were at odds with each other that you experienced. Where did you experience cognitive dissonance? We all have different experiences, just curious what yours were.

[GraceAlone]

Hi UtahGiant,

Here are a couple examples that spring to mind. There are many more, but some have been well-covered by others.

1. Most impactful example: throughout my youth and adult years in the LR, I am told many many times, in personal conversations and in meetings and trainings, that “there’s nothing else out there,” other Christians “don’t know their spirit,” “don’t know how to enjoy Christ,” and “don’t see the Body.” Christianity (of which we are not part, somehow?) is dead, degraded, and stifles the function of the members. As the Lord arranges for me to gradually step out of the bubble and start encountering other believers, hearing and reading testimonies and teaching, and even occasionally visiting other congregations, it becomes more and more obvious to me that all the above simply isn’t true. Imagine my shock when we visited a liturgical denominational church (gasp!) and found them to be undeniably enjoying the Lord. (And empowering many of their members to function, as long as you don’t define “function” as “speak from prescribed material in the Sunday meeting.”) In fact, the only way I can maintain my belief in the superiority of the LC is to, during these encounters, mentally dismiss them with knee-jerk reactions like “oh but they don’t see God’s economy.” Which means I’m holding myself apart from them, not truly receiving and valuing their portion as my needed brothers and sisters in Christ. So I can either have an unbiblical attitude of arrogance or drop that and genuinely receive from them with an open mind, thus allowing for the possibility that “our” paradigm/verbiage/practices are not the ONLY or even BEST way to follow the Lord. It feels like a no-win situation.

I realized at some point that if what we had in the LC was the truth, it should stand up to scrutiny from others. It should also speak for itself, with no need to undercut, compete with, or put other ministries or ministers down. And there should be no fear or threat from saints reading or sharing from other Christ-centered ministry, if we truly are centered on Christ alone. That fact that we clearly weren’t was part of that cognitive dissonance.

2. Most silly example: In one locality where we met, there was a little-publicized rule that no brother with facial hair could usher or give the opening word. Why? When pushed to explain, an elder provided a Life-Study excerpt from Leviticus in which Witness Lee pronounced beards to be a sign of “self-dignity.” Therefore bad. Therefore unworthy of a public servant of the Lord. OK, this? Is actually so eye-poppingly, mind-numbingly ridiculous that it made me laugh out loud many times before banging my head against the nearest wall. Talk about unbiblical and illogical! Not only does the New Testament say nothing about a church leader’s appearance, only about his character and spiritual maturity, but also, by this logic THE LORD JESUS HIMSELF, an observant Jew who in all likelihood sported a beard, would be unqualified to give the opening word in the meetings of this church! No doubt his twelve apostles as well. Moreover, you could have a brother who spends hours in prayer and reading God’s word ineligible to give a ten-minute intro because of his goatee, while someone who spends hours watching sports, being shabby to their family, or even, hypothetically, being addicted to porn, qualified because they look the part and can talk the talk. This is one of those moments where I struggled to understand how intelligent adults are accepting these conclusions without question. And wondered what was wrong with me that I found it so ludicrous. Then finally understood that if I wanted to love the Lord my God with my whole being, including my mind, I had to stop ignoring all these red flags and accept that they meant something worth heeding.

I hope that clarifies a little bit.:-)

[Ohio]

GraceAlone, I always laugh at this matter of facial hair. Before I departed the LC, I studied the Plymouth Brethren, supposedly our forebears. Years ago in the LC we were told that having facial hair was a sign of having a "cold heart" towards the Lord. But as I studied the Brethren, I realized many of these great men of God had beards. How can this be???

Then one day it dawned on me that the Chinese brothers can't grow decent beards, hence they made an ordinance that beards are not spiritual. The English could grow beards, so for them it was no issue at all. Just one more stupid rule in the LC made up by old Chinese brothers to control young American brothers. The Recovery is full of such ordinances, written and otherwise.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by GraceAlone

Over the years, many different experiences and observations began contributing to a cognitive dissonance that eventually grew almost unbearable for me.

I'd also like to express my appreciation to the people on this forum who have been able to articulate observations and concerns as I was never fully able.

To your first point, this cognitive dissonance is destructive to our faith. Paul exhorted Timothy to "hold faith and a good conscience which is how we war the good warfare." (I Tm 1.18-19). In the LC we were forced to accept unexplained conflicts. Our faith and our conscience would protest, yet we were forced to silence these inner concerns in order to "keep the oneness, be one with the brothers, etc." In doing so, we damaged ourselves, pleasing man rather than God. Carefully consider this.

Secondly, we received much leaven, many "extras," from LSM. Jesus told His disciples to "beware of the leaven of the Pharisees." It is your obligation now to "test all things, hold on to the good" as Paul told the Thessalonians. (5.21). Many who have left the LC did not do this and threw out the "good" with the bad. From your examples here, you have already made great progress differentiating leaven from truth. Your visit to that congregation was a testing, and you have begun to remove that old leaven that "there's nothing else out there."

[UtahGiant]

That is for clarifying, very insightful and helpful.

Originally Posted by GraceAlone

This is one of those moments where I struggled to understand how intelligent adults are accepting these conclusions without question. And wondered what was wrong with me that I found it so ludicrous. Then finally understood that if I wanted to love the Lord my God with my whole being, including my mind, I had to stop ignoring all these red flags and accept that they meant something worth heeding.

I think many of people who accept these conclusions meet them with the “Witness Lee is the minister of the age" response. I’ve personally questioned commentary or teachings from Witness Lee openly to other saints in the recovery. The response I often get is that witness Lee studied much more than they had or much more than I had so it must be right and I must be wrong. Or that if they question, it’s because they are in their mind / the thoughts are the enemy.

Breaking through that backstop is not easy, and it’s awesome that you did.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by GraceAlone

2. Most silly example: In one locality where we met, there was a little-publicized rule that no brother with facial hair could usher or give the opening word. Why? When pushed to explain, an elder provided a Life-Study excerpt from Leviticus in which Witness Lee pronounced beards to be a sign of “self-dignity.” Therefore bad. Therefore unworthy of a public servant of the Lord. OK, this? Is actually so eye-poppingly, mind-numbingly ridiculous that it made me laugh out loud many times before banging my head against the nearest wall. Talk about unbiblical and illogical! Not only does the New Testament say nothing about a church leader’s appearance, only about his character and spiritual maturity, but also, by this logic THE LORD JESUS HIMSELF, an observant Jew who in all likelihood sported a beard, would be unqualified to give the opening word in the meetings of this church! No doubt his twelve apostles as well. Moreover, you could have a brother who spends hours in prayer and reading God’s word ineligible to give a ten-minute intro because of his goatee, while someone who spends hours watching sports, being shabby to their family, or even, hypothetically, being addicted to porn, qualified because they look the part and can talk the talk. This is one of those moments where I struggled to understand how intelligent adults are accepting these conclusions without question. And wondered what was wrong with me that I found it so ludicrous. Then finally understood that if I wanted to love the Lord my God with my whole being, including my mind, I had to stop ignoring all these red flags and accept that they meant something worth heeding.

This was a great example! Sometimes it's the silly ones that help us see how silly some things are!

I noticed "the beard rule" too, and the strange unspoken understanding in the church life that if a brother walked in with a beard, he must be "going through something" and once the beard was gone, he must be "right with the Lord again".

We literally believed this, and thought beards were biblical disqualifiers from service. I mean.....condemned. I mean, you were spoken to about it.

Except no one batted an eye when we belted out with gusto that ointment ran down "....the beard, even Aaaaaaaaaron's beard!"

Whoops, guess beards are okay, except for our baseless rule they weren't!

Ridiculously enough, this was something I had to "get over" when visiting other churches. The pastor, on stage, in jeans, with a beard!

And no one cared. And it didn't affect the truth of his speaking. And he clearly wasn't "going through something".

GraceAlone, as crazy as this is, the local church actually uses discrete tactics of mind control. Once you start reading up on mind control......there's just no denying it's present in the local church. Mind control isn't some freaky thing; it's just tricks people use to influence the thoughts and behaviors and reactions of other people. And in the local church it's subtle, it's hidden, it's cloaked in spiritual language and spiritual-sounding reasoning, it's never stated outright.....but boy is it there. (And boy does it start to fall apart if you hack away at it with simple logic.......logic that the God who created us gave to us to use to "test all things"!). That's how intelligent adults accept so many things without conclusion. All kinds of people along the broad range of intelligence spectrum can get deceived, because they are unduly influenced, usually in fearful or condemnatory ways.

The two type of brothers you described (beard on the outside but genuine on the inside versus clean shaven on the outside but full of dirt on the inside) is exactly the type of difference Jesus pointed out about the Pharisees, who cared for the outward appearance while neglecting the important things. Reading the pure word, unadulterated by Witness Lee's every interpretation, and seeing what kind of things we should care about really does shine light on the dark places in the LC. No wonder they have an article on shepherdingwords.com that calls reading the pure word "a dangerous and unbiblical notion"!! Because doing so exposes them!

If you or anyone have any more examples of the cognitive dissonance, feel free to share. I think it's those kind of concrete, real examples of things that everyone actually does register inside but can never bring up that really help arrest people and give them the chance to confront the discrepancy.

Trapped

[aron]

Originally Posted by GraceAlone

I often felt that in the eyes of the LC, I was barely a person -- more of a drone, and especially as a female, one without any voice. But the Lord is "the God who sees," and His compassion runs deep.

Speaking only for myself. But what I remember is that being male, I was automatically superior to 50% of the church congregation. I could lead, perhaps, someday. I could maybe someday do something meaningful and bear responsibility in the church (and the church is all there is - we all believed that). The sisters could cook and clean and sing and mind children and say "ayyeeemeeennnn" loudly. But I as a male could go beyond that, do weighty things someday. I was being groomed from Day 1 to do things no 'sister' could ever attain.

My brain was fogged and my heart was rotten. It was just an ego feed and I fell for it.

It never occurred to me to ask why, if women couldn't bear any weight before God, the Living Stream Ministry sold "God's plan of redemption" by Mary McDonough on its book sales page, and in meetings they cited it as authoritative; why Dora Yu was held as a lioness of 'recovery', why WN copied (plagiarized) Jessie Penn-Lewis, why only Ruth Lee sat with WL and WN during the meetings that restored WN to ministry after years of exile.

The ego feed blurred any cognitive capacity. And if my conscience was bothered, it wasn't bothered enough to do anything.

[GraceAlone]

Thank you, @Aron. You articulated the situation so well. I typed out a longer response, but took too long and got logged out, so lost it. Oh well. Maybe it’s for the best, and I’ll just comment that I don’t think it’s “ambition” or “wanting to be someone” for a sister to hunger for more options. It’s wanting to be the person God created us to be, and to honor Him by bringing the giftings, experience, skills, and callings He has given us to invest in the Master’s service.

And one of the things the Lord is having to heal in me is the impulse to apologize for all that — in fact, for taking up any more than a tiny bit of space! I long to become confident and secure enough in Him that I can be the example I was looking for as a younger woman in the LC.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by GraceAlone

Thank you, @Aron. You articulated the situation so well. I typed out a longer response, but took too long and got logged out, so lost it. Oh well. Maybe it’s for the best, and I’ll just comment that I don’t think it’s “ambition” or “wanting to be someone” for a sister to hunger for more options. It’s wanting to be the person God created us to be, and to honor Him by bringing the giftings, experience, skills, and callings He has given us to invest in the Master’s service.

And one of the things the Lord is having to heal in me is the impulse to apologize for all that — in fact, for taking up any more than a tiny bit of space! I long to become confident and secure enough in Him that I can be the example I was looking for as a younger woman in the LC.

Hi GraceAlone--

I'm with you. I don't think women are ambitious or wanting to "be someone" just because they want, or rightly believe, that there is much more to the life of a Christian woman than to be subserviant to a group of domineering men. I also thing strong women are often labelled as "ambitious" or accused of "wanting to be someone", because of they might have a strong personality. This is presumed to be a "negative" thing.

Honestly, what's wrong with being "ambitious"? What's wrong with wanting to "be someone"? It all depends on the context.

It's not uncommon for people in general to "project" their own desires onto others...they are ambitious, so they think everyone else is ambitious too.

Nell

PS: Here's a little word of "tutorial" advice. Type your post in a text editor, Word or something, and save it. When you're ready to post, copy and paste into the "reply" box. This has saved me from a good bit of angst!

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Nell

PS: Here's a little word of "tutorial" advice. Type your post in a text editor, Word or something, and save it. When you're ready to post, copy and paste into the "reply" box. This has saved me from a good bit of angst!

What I do is I CTRL+A, CTRL+C (highlight all, copy) everything I've written before I hit "preview" or "submit".....that way if it's timed out I have a copy on the clipboard that I can just paste into the text box.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by Nell

Here's a little word of "tutorial" advice. Type your post in a text editor, Word or something, and save it. When you're ready to post, copy and paste into the "reply" box. This has saved me from a good bit of angst!

Originally Posted by Trapped

What I do is I CTRL+A, CTRL+C (highlight all, copy) everything I've written before I hit "preview" or "submit".....that way if it's timed out I have a copy on the clipboard that I can just paste into the text box.

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[aron]

Originally Posted by GraceAlone

It’s wanting to be the person God created us to be, and to honor Him by bringing the giftings, experience, skills, and callings He has given us to invest in the Master’s service. And one of the things the Lord is having to heal in me is the impulse to apologize for all that — in fact, for taking up any more than a tiny bit of space! I long to become confident and secure enough in Him that I can be the example I was looking for as a younger woman in the LC.

I had the good fortune of being in a privileged class: white, male, educated. Being white, I was by default accorded access to levers of societal power. Male, meant that I wasn't a female, who could be too emotionally expressive - uncomfortably so, really - also unstable, not able to "bear weight before the Lord" if you know what I mean, wink, nod. Educated meant that I could play with words to my personal benefit.

I bought into it because it automatically gave me a special status. As I said before, WL's caste system clouded my mind, and my heart lost any incipient love for my fellow human. We despised the poor - well, too bad for them to be poor. The LSM repeatedly made it explicit what was "good building material" - American college educated white males...hey ma, look - that's me!! (There was even a college caste system - Community college, State college, Private college, Ivy league). We found reasons to dismiss the spiritual gifts of our female counterparts, because they weren't stable or solid like us, and could be too easily swayed and led off the path.

But my point is, who were we to push this agenda? We were (and LSM still is) selling books by Mary McDonough, like "God's plan of Redemption". We were citing Madame Guyon as authoritatively expressing the divine will. We lauded the 'female pioneers' of the 'early recovery' like Ruth Lee and Dora Yu, the 'senior co-workers' who stood shoulder to shoulder with WN and WL. We acknowledged WN's utter and slavish dependence on Jessie Penn-Lewis, yet denied J P-L categorically. Our position was completely self-contradictory, but we didn't examine it, or ourselves for pushing it, being too busy congratulating ourselves for having arrived simply by being born males.

The larger issue of women finding their service before God on earth transcends the Living Stream Ministry. But in LSM local churches there was no discussion because there wasn't discussion about anything. We accepted as fiat from God a position that was logically untenable, morally indefensible, and inconsistent with the Bible, but we had no other option. It was convenient to "the ministry" and the MOTA's narrative, and so be it. Get out of your mind, don't think, don't question, shout repetitively. Congratulate yourselves on being "God's best".

The first word of John the Baptist coming up out of the desert was, "Repent." Not coincidentally it was how Jesus also began his ministry. Not coincidentally it was what the Spirit was speaking to the churches through John on Patmos, as the New Testament era ended. It's still a good and a necessary word. I repent of being sucked into someone else's ego-drive, ignoring my conscience and my divinely appointed common sense, poorly developed though it may be. I repent for lacking love, merely concerned for my own things. Lord have mercy on me, and on us all.

[gr8ful]

Originally Posted by aron

I had the good fortune of being in a privileged class: white, male, educated. Being white, I was by default accorded access to levers of societal power. Male, meant that I wasn't a female, who could be too emotionally expressive - uncomfortably so, really - also unstable, not able to "bear weight before the Lord" if you know what I mean, wink, nod. Educated meant that I could play with words to my personal benefit.
...

I resemble this remark! One experience stands out to me, strongly. We had a sister in our locality who was, perhaps, the smartest person I've met and who was extremely clear on cutting straight the truth. The main thing she did wrong was...speak authoritatively (that is, speak with conviction) on doctrinal issues. This, of course, was a major offense (as Paul warned) and she was repeatedly told to keep the head covering. She wasn't silenced, she could still testify and speak of experience (like Guyon) but not teach. It's too bad because she was more erudite than the brothers!

But this isn't unique to the Local Church -- it's the pattern of fundamentalist Christian churches. So, although a shame and a loss, it is withing orthodoxy to shut out the voices of women.

As one Blended Brother once told me (regarding excluding non-celibate homosexuals), it is a shame but it is the way of the Bible. If the church changes to allow non-celibate homosexuals (and women to teach), is it bearing the testimony?

Thus, this aspect -- patriarchal bias -- has no solution among Pauline literalists.

[GraceAlone]

Aron and gr8ful, I concur with you that the issue of women’s roles in the church is not unique to LSM and its affiliated churches. It’s very much a hot-button issue in Christianity at large. However, I have observed that even within many conservative, evangelical Christian ministries and churches, there is more of a role for, and respect for the contributions of, female members. They may not be lead pastors, but they can be authors, theologians, women’s Bible Study teachers, youth/children’s ministry directors, deacons, guest speakers, curriculum writers, musicians, worship leaders, etc. There isn’t the same notion that any and all leadership positions (not to mention ushering or serving the Table elements) automatically belong to men, with no discussion.

Aron, you hit on something when you mentioned that lack of discussion or explanation. That really frustrated me. I wanted to know WHY (because even the more conservative readings of Paul’s injunctions regarding women teaching didn’t seem to explain the unusual degree of patriarchy in the LC culture — I was even told by another sister once that a text group for YP parents, mostly moms, had to be named and moderated by “the brothers”!).

But as with many other unspoken cultural rules, there was rarely any discussion of the why. Because I suppose that would involve thoughtfully building a logical, biblical case, and that is not how this culture rolls. (Sorry - snark.)

I know that from time to time the coworkers like to throw the sisters a bone by giving messages about how special and valuable they are, but I found these more patronizing than satisfying because they never seemed to come with any real substance. Any attitude of repentance (Aron-style:-)), recognition of how the sisters’ abilities and even personalities get muted to the detriment of both their mental health and the health of the church, and willingness to start empowering them to do more than pray behind the scenes, read more ministry, cook, open their homes, and cheerfully care for young children so their husbands can go to ITERO conferences? Not evident. Hence more of that cognitive dissonance I referred to earlier. It feels a bit like an adult telling a three-year-old, “You’re such a big boy!! ... Here’s a lollipop for you. Okay, time for you to go to bed so the adults can talk.”

And I fully believe that kind of cultural change could happen within the bounds of a complementarian view, as it has elsewhere in Christianity.

[GraceAlone]

But of course, there we come to one of the main reasons we eventually left: it felt like there was really no way to express questions or concerns and be heard, never mind effect change. And I’d say that’s true not just for females but for the majority of brothers as well.

[awareness]

Originally Posted by GraceAlone

But of course, there we come to one of the main reasons we eventually left: it felt like there was really no way to express questions or concerns and be heard, never mind effect change. And I’d say that’s true not just for females but for the majority of brothers as well.

I found out what happened when I was concerned for the LC falling into Laodicea. The proverbial boot came along. Praise the Lord.

[UtahGiant]

Originally Posted by GraceAlone

But of course, there we come to one of the main reasons we eventually left: it felt like there was really no way to express questions or concerns and be heard, never mind effect change. And I’d say that’s true not just for females but for the majority of brothers as well.

Did you ever try to do this? Why did you feel this way?

[aron]

Originally Posted by UtahGiant

Did you ever try to do this? Why did you feel this way?

Speaking for myself.

1. We were in a culture where outrageous and questionable things were flatly asserted from the podium, yet nobody questioned; rather they lined up at the mike after the message to praise the goodness and wisdom flowing forth. Do you think that environment is conducive to questioning?
2. I and others have talked about what happened when they went off script, and mentioned things in the Bible which were not as the RecV footnotes said to be so.
3. Telling us not to question, that question mark looked like the serpent, to "get out of your mind" or "you are just confused" or similar dismissive remarks.
4. Trying to speak privately with an elder about how the "magic formula" wasn't working, just call O Lord Jesus over and over and over again, but my psychiatric issues didn't disappear. The elders, one by one, told me to get with the program. Not one of them made any attempt to address my issues and concerns on their face. I was a 24/7 rabid fire-breathing local churcher, done it 24/7 for years, every conference, every training, every meeting, and it wasn't working. Yet even in when presented with my private, earnest, respectful presentation of my dilemma, they were each of them constitutionally incapable of deviating from the Anaheim script. "You have no problems" one of them said. Another said the opposite that, "We all have problems". Etc. They simply could not engage the new information that was coming at them. They had programmed themselves not to deviate from the script, even when the script didn't work (which it often doesn't).

[GraceAlone]

Originally Posted by UtahGiant

Did you ever try to do this? Why did you feel this way?

Fair question. I completely agree with Aron’s #1-3. (#4 is personal to him, but I can totally imagine it happening.) I think that on a macro level, it quite literally felt like there wasn’t a way to submit questions to the leadership, I.e. the LSM coworkers. With most organizations, if you visit their website, it’s not difficult to find the names and contact info of their staff. But that level of simple transparency and accessibility seems to be missing from LSM. Of course, some brave and persistent souls seem to be able to track down coworker emails and stick their necks out, but why would anyone send certain coworkers an email after hearing the way those messages are mocked and vilified from the podium? One of them in particular is infamous for “I received a certain email ...” shaming.

(In my fantasies, they’d notice the rates of attrition, especially among church kids, and send out a survey to every member of the LC asking for honest, anonymous feedback. I know. Fantasies.)

On the local level, our personal experience was that we weren’t squeaky wheels, and the elders were simply too busy for us. This may be partly our fault, but because we didn’t have a close relationship with any of them, we didn’t have enough trust to do the scary thing and be vulnerable, risking being seen as “negative” and “in our minds.” When we eventually opened some of our questions up to a local elder, he was kind and didn’t shut us down. I think he really did want to help us. But he just didn’t have satisfying answers for us. Like Aron said, I think it was just too hard, after years of conditioning, to go “off script.”

[aron]

Originally Posted by gr8ful

We had a sister in our locality who was, perhaps, the smartest person I've met and who was extremely clear on cutting straight the truth. The main thing she did wrong was...speak authoritatively (that is, speak with conviction) on doctrinal issues. This, of course, was a major offense (as Paul warned) and she was repeatedly told to keep the head covering. She wasn't silenced, she could still testify and speak of experience (like Guyon) but not teach. It's too bad because she was more erudite than the brothers!

I’d say that 6 or 7 of the smartest 10 people I ever met were women. I’m not talking wisdom or nobility, as those are hard to judge and such assessments are for the Lord at the Judgment Seat. No, I’m talking raw intellectual horsepower. (Yet, intellect was what distinguished WN and Ravi Zacharias – look where that got them)

God distributes talents, and women get them just like men. Yet they’re denied their exercise or function – why? Because of Genesis 3, because of “the curse”…? That might have traction except for the testimony of the gospels: look at Jesus with Martha and Mary. There were two autonomous, fully functioning human beings, able to express themselves, to opine, to assert themselves and make mistakes just like Peter and John did. (Say whaaaa....?)

Martha and Mary were human beings in the gospel record who were enabled to self-actualize themselves under the tutelage of Jesus the Messiah (or Rabbi Jeshua if you will). They didn’t just ‘learn subjection’ or ‘learn their place’ but they were free to learn themselves, who and what they were as beloved in God's creation, in its fullest possible sense, and thus their place and role on God’s earth and in God's kingdom.

They got the chance to be actualized, to be real, to function, to really live. Where does this occur in local churches? Mary was free to sit at Jesus’ feet – maybe she was in front of Peter! Martha was free to get angry about it, and complain. At Lazarus’ tomb also; these were not cardboard cutouts or docile nobodies but real human beings becoming what God planned for them. This happened right in front of everyone’s eyes – why deny it?

My calculus is simple: without respect, there's no basis to say that there's any love. And where in the local churches is there respect? No, instead there’s insinuation, condescension, belittling, and judgment, and that judgment done by ones whom I’ve shown are in no position to judge anyone. Yet because they're born male, they presume that they can.

[gr8ful]

Originally Posted by UtahGiant

Did you ever try to do this? Why did you feel this way?

In my memory, I recall stopping a LT meeting and asking what a Supplement Song meant. But then, at that time, I was brand-new and later, after many "trainings" (college trainings, LSM trainings, New Way trainings, etc.), I learned that my role was to repeat the ministry, not ask questions.

I recall one time WL spoke in Irving and Don Rutledge walked up to the mic and asked a question. It was so odd that everyone was puzzled. Even though I didn't know what was happening in Anaheim (being sheltered in Texas) I knew something was wrong .... because he asked a question. Our church knew Don, Don had been a visiting trainer to our small church, so we all looked at each other wondering what had happened to Don?! ...Because he asked a question.