Calling the LC old timers, Describe the LC before the reign of Lee

Hello, I have a very simple question for all the old timers of the LR (Pre 80s). What was the LC like before Lee ministry took over completely? What were lord’s day meetings like? Did you all just used the bible and shared your love for the word, how were meetings conducted. Did you have outlines and just read off the outline or did you just let the spirit take lead? Was Jesus the focal point just as much as Lee was the focal point today? What were home meetings like, what was a Lee free home meeting like? What hymns did you sing and what was the church life like as a whole? Were you more involved in your community such as giving feasts to the poor and giving alms to those in need? I am assuming the toxic view of fellowshipping with other Christians was absent or less severe pre-Lee takeover right? Overall, can you compare the LC life before and after Lee. Finally, what is your thoughts the state of the LC today and how it has fallen from its peak days (if you see it this way)

I remembered John Ingalls words in his writings- "The recovery has changed in nature". I kind of had an idea what he was talking. I know J. I was Lee first Co-Worker, so I assumed W. Lee fed him a lie of a vision that sounded nice but quickly turned sour due to the agenda of Lee in the long term. What should be the truth nature of the lord’s recovery?

Lets dig into some history shall we?

[UntoHim]

Unregistered Guest,

Unfortunately your questions are not so easy! Nevertheless, I think you will receive some good responses in the near future!
You may want to keep in mind that you will probably receive as many different answers as their are people who reply.

I will try to just cover one or two of your questions. I "came into" the Local Church in the mid 1970s in Orange County California, which as you probably know, was/is the hotbed of the movement and home of Witness Lee, the church in Anaheim and the Living Stream Ministry. So my personal experience and views regarding these matters comes from someone who was right there and immersed in the LC movement in Southern California.

I kind of chuckled a little with your question "What was the LC like before Lee ministry took over completely". Not that this is a funny matter, only that I don't believe that there ever was a time in the Local Church life when Witness Lee and his ministry did not completely dominate every aspect. We only read the Bible with Lee footnotes. We only fellowshipped about Lee messages and teachings. Most of the songs and hymns were filled with Lee teachings and Local Church slogans. We spent all of our time, including all holidays and vacations listening to and fellowhipping the teachings and practices established by Witness Lee.

The Lord's Day meetings throughout the year were simply a weekly "digestion" of the various training and conference messages of Witness Lee. There would be the Winter Training (Christmas week through New Years) and we would spend the next six months going over and over and over all the 30 messages. Then there was the Summer Training (4th of July week) and we spend the next six months going over and over the 30 messages of that training. Of course there was the various US holiday conferences and there might be a few weeks break to go over those messages. I think you get the picture.

Others from different parts of North America will probably give a slightly different story, especially those from the Great Lakes / Midwest area.
-

[OBW]

For quick answers, it might be helpful to search for threads that speak of "Early Lee" and "Later Lee," referring to the US experience (not including Taiwan and before). My own comments within those threads indicate my presumption was that the only difference was in the amount of control Lee exerted, not the actual nature of Lee's teachings and intents. He came to the US as an unknown. He needed to become accepted as a "spiritual leader." And that was something that grew. It did not happen suddenly, though there were milestones that demonstrated the fact of the underlying changes that had been underway from the start.

In those threads, you will find a lot of different perceptions of the times based on varying notions of "breakpoints." Some say the line is around 70 to 72. Others 74 or 75. Still others, 77 to 80. They point to the creation and demise of Daystar, others to the publishing change from The Stream to LSM, some to the start of the Anaheim trainings, and others to the chaos that began on Memorial day (1977, I believe) and went on for a year or so, ending with Lee taking full control outwardly.

I was part of the LC from very early 73 until mid-87. I can say that there were some clear changes over time, though not always clear as they happened. And for me, some of it was due to a change in location. Always in the DFW area, but who were the elders in each city was not irrelevant.

I will say that for the most part, Sunday meetings over this period were almost always at the meeting hall, two sessions, significant speaking by one of the leading ones (in each meeting), and then testimonies based on what was spoken. In the last couple of years there were some meetings in houses using some kind of pre-packaged material (my memory on the details are too vague to be useful), but not like the HWMR that is used now.

Our last 4-1/2 years were in Irving and there was always a level of disruption to the "normal" flow of things due to the impact of the constant LSM publication work going on there at the time. In hindsight, that was almost like a little cult within a bigger one. I understand that the hall we built there is now somewhat languishing, and despite the extra efforts taken to deal with the rather troublesome soil in that part of Irving, the building is not doing well. (Odd that a church whose cornerstone doctrine is sometimes called the "doctrine of dirt" by ex-members and it is the faulty soil that is destroying the physical building.)

I don't know what else to say about things. Some have different thoughts about a before/after difference. My perception is that while some things changed over time, I can't see how it was ever not Lee's thing after at least mid to late 60s (before my time). Many may have thought that they were on their own, but in hindsight, it is hard to see anything but the slow installation of Lee as the ultimate source of everything of spiritual importance. It just took time to gain their trust and allegiance.

[Nell]

Here are a few hints about the days of yore with what could happen when taken to the extreme.

Originally Posted by Nell

This reminded me of the "most important testimony" given in the Church in Houston in the "early days" by a brother in his late 20's.

He testified that recently he had missed a meeting. Something you JUST DON'T DO. He chose instead to go to the Houston Zoo. He felt guilty about it, but was feeling somewhat rebellious and did it anyway.

At one point he was standing at the gorilla exhibit and apparently the gorillas were pretty close to the people who were watching. As animals are likely to do, the closest gorilla to the errant brother decided it was time to relieve himself. To keep things tidy I suppose, the gorilla chose to capture his droppings in his own hand (paw?). When he was finished, he drew back his hand and delivered a 90 MPH "fastball" at the brother, which was ruled a "hit by pitch", in the brother's chest.

Immediately brother X was certain that he was "caught" and was being punished for missing the meeting. Why he decided to "confess" his indiscretion in the meeting was unclear. This was not lost on those in attendance at the hearing of the "testimony." However, the attendees were too busy rolling on the floor laughing to notice.

He cleaned himself up as best he could and began to scurry toward the zoo exit. As he made his way out, there to greet him were news cameras from a large Houston TV station. They had gotten “wind” of the gorilla story and rushed to the zoo to cover it. A slow news night I guess.

Of course, brother X was not only mortifed by getting pummeled by gorilla poop, but it was being covered by the news media...all because he missed the meeting. Everybody in Houston would know.

Then he remembered...not only is everyone he knows in the meeting, but they are not allowed to OWN TV's much less WATCH TV. So he's safe. No problem...until he gave a "testimony" about it in the meeting.

So the moral of this story is...God has a sense of humor. And, sometimes you need to go to the zoo to get the message. Don't take things too seriously or you might miss something really important at the zoo.

Nell

[Indiana]

http://www.laymansfellowship.com/public/Donbookch1.pdf

[Bible-believer]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Unregistered Guest,

Unfortunately your questions are not so easy! Nevertheless, I think you will receive some good responses in the near future!
You may want to keep in mind that you will probably receive as many different answers as their are people who reply.

I will try to just cover one or two of your questions. I "came into" the Local Church in the mid 1970s in Orange County California, which as you probably know, was/is the hotbed of the movement and home of Witness Lee, the church in Anaheim and the Living Stream Ministry. So my personal experience and views regarding these matters comes from someone who was right there and immersed in the LC movement in Southern California.

I kind of chuckled a little with your question "What was the LC like before Lee ministry took over completely". Not that this is a funny matter, only that I don't believe that there ever was a time in the Local Church life when Witness Lee and his ministry did not completely dominate every aspect. We only read the Bible with Lee footnotes. We only fellowshipped about Lee messages and teachings. Most of the songs and hymns were filled with Lee teachings and Local Church slogans. We spent all of our time, including all holidays and vacations listening to and fellowhipping the teachings and practices established by Witness Lee.

The Lord's Day meetings throughout the year were simply a weekly "digestion" of the various training and conference messages of Witness Lee. There would be the Winter Training (Christmas week through New Years) and we would spend the next six months going over and over and over all the 30 messages. Then there was the Summer Training (4th of July week) and we spend the next six months going over and over the 30 messages of that training. Of course there was the various US holiday conferences and there might be a few weeks break to go over those messages. I think you get the picture.

Others from different parts of North America will probably give a slightly different story, especially those from the Great Lakes / Midwest area.
-

Some things never change. It still going on, as usual, just change from physical to virtual. I remember one leading brother said you might miss the Rapture if you miss a training session or so.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hello, I have a very simple question for all the old timers of the LR (Pre 80s). What was the LC like before Lee ministry took over?

There were no bells signaling a person to shut up and sit down.

There were no microphones that I know of. Maybe in Anaheim?

People stood up and “testified” not “prophesied”.

We met for the Lord’s table on SUNDAY NOT “Lord’s day”. Suddenly Sunday became a “cursed” word. People would not even say “We are going to eat at such and such’s home Sunday after the Lord’s table. Nope dared not say “SUNDAY”.

In 1975 when I got saved and “jumped in” to the church life, our focus was on the Lord Jesus, getting “into our spirit”, reading the Bible. We read from the KJ and NASB. It was 4 months before I realized Lee was the head honcho of the LC.

From 1975-76, even though we were reading life study messages, the focus was on Christ and the church. By mid 1977, rarely did a day go by where Lee wasn’t mentioned. In every meeting Lee and to a lesser extent Nee we’re “glorified”.

Even at the table meetings people jumped up and declared “Thank You Lord for brother Lee”. (As if God opened no one’s eyes but Nee and Lee’s regarding the LC). Even worst, as sheeple, I noticed we were subtly being controlled. What happened to “getting into our spirit?” We we’re not in our spirit unless we acknowledged Lee in our testimonies.

Unquestionably I became very annoyed with all the hootin - rootin - and tootin for brother Lee. It is Jesus Christ Who saved us, His Precious Blood sanctifying us and HIS LOVE safeguarding and possessing us. He IS the all in all.

NOT Lee!!! So I left. It wasn’t easy living in the wilderness for many, many years. But I am free at last! Thank God ALMIGHTY I am FREE at last from the Lee/LSM stronghold.

All Glory and Honor be to the LAMB of GOD!

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Nell

Here are a few hints about the days of yore with what could happen when taken to the extreme.

I found it today. I needed this!

[Cal]

I talk about this in this message:

A Short Personal History of the "Recovery" Early Days and Decline.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5lsyM1zCDmg

Witness Lee's control early on depended on a church's proximity to Southern California. I was in Texas and early on it was less about WL. Actually Benson Phillips was spoken of more in Texas in those days, because we'd never really seen WL. But once the trainings and videos training started, WL moved front and center. But different regions and cities had different degrees of this. In the Midwest Titus Chu never completely gave up the stage to WL, I don't think.

[Ohio]

Originally Posted by Cal

In the Midwest Titus Chu never completely gave up the stage to WL

Which made TC the subject of endless accusations and suspicions, and eventually got him expelled from the Recovery.

Should have happened long ago.

[JJ]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Unregistered Guest,

Unfortunately your questions are not so easy! Nevertheless, I think you will receive some good responses in the near future!
You may want to keep in mind that you will probably receive as many different answers as their are people who reply.

I will try to just cover one or two of your questions. I "came into" the Local Church in the mid 1970s in Orange County California, which as you probably know, was/is the hotbed of the movement and home of Witness Lee, the church in Anaheim and the Living Stream Ministry. So my personal experience and views regarding these matters comes from someone who was right there and immersed in the LC movement in Southern California.

I kind of chuckled a little with your question "What was the LC like before Lee ministry took over completely". Not that this is a funny matter, only that I don't believe that there ever was a time in the Local Church life when Witness Lee and his ministry did not completely dominate every aspect. We only read the Bible with Lee footnotes. We only fellowshipped about Lee messages and teachings. Most of the songs and hymns were filled with Lee teachings and Local Church slogans. We spent all of our time, including all holidays and vacations listening to and fellowhipping the teachings and practices established by Witness Lee.

The Lord's Day meetings throughout the year were simply a weekly "digestion" of the various training and conference messages of Witness Lee. There would be the Winter Training (Christmas week through New Years) and we would spend the next six months going over and over and over all the 30 messages. Then there was the Summer Training (4th of July week) and we spend the next six months going over and over the 30 messages of that training. Of course there was the various US holiday conferences and there might be a few weeks break to go over those messages. I think you get the picture.

Others from different parts of North America will probably give a slightly different story, especially those from the Great Lakes / Midwest area.
-

Great description of what the LC was like for me too, starting from 1978 when I was recruited in Fresno, CA. There never was a time that Lee and his ministry wasn’t dominant. My theory is because the whole thing was like a Ponzi scheme from the beginning, even back before Nee inherited the stinking system from others, became top dog, and Lee took it to even greater lengths.

Originally Posted by JJ

Great description of what the LC was like for me too, starting from 1978 when I was recruited in Fresno, CA. There never was a time that Lee and his ministry wasn’t dominant. My theory is because the whole thing was like a Ponzi scheme from the beginning, even back before Nee inherited the stinking system from others, became top dog, and Lee took it to even greater lengths.

Like Don Rutledge, Cal, and many other “old timers I have to be fair and report that many times in my earlier days in TLR there were many times when the blessing of the Holy Spirit poured out on us both in meetings and less formal “doing life together” and serving times. So, it became infuriatingly frustrating to try to figure out why that happened along with so many other strange and bad things. Thus we “sit around here” and ask “how did we get here, and where do we go from here now that the Lord is leading us elsewhere?”

I’m convinced that times of blessing were related to the fact that often we were turning our hearts to the Lord, reading and praying with God’s word, believing it, and acting on it. Conversely, the strange and bad things were related to departing from that.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Thus we “sit around here” and ask “how did we get here, and where do we go from here now that the Lord is leading us elsewhere?”

I’m convinced that times of blessing were related to the fact that often we were turning our hearts to the Lord, reading and praying with God’s word, believing it, and acting on it.

It's the only thing that makes sense. The blessing came due to the devotion of the people. The leaders including Lee just took credit for it. No doubt some general ideas pointed us in the right direction (Spirit/spirit, contacting the Lord, practical church, devotion), but WL's esoterica were really not the reason and became the problem.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Cal

It's the only thing that makes sense. The blessing came due to the devotion of the people. The leaders including Lee just took credit for it. No doubt some general ideas pointed us in the right direction (Spirit/spirit, contacting the Lord, practical church, devotion), but WL's esoterica were really not the reason and became the problem.

Every couple weeks I hear of some other Christian teacher that is reputed to have sinned or promoted some type of error. This is just the nature of our exitance on this planet at this time. We know that we carry the flesh, and are all capable of its litany of manifested problems. If we dig deep enough, any teacher can be shown to have shortcomings in either their life or teachings or both. Nothing should surprise us in that respect . . . nothing.

And of course, we point out the error, but we really should not be that surprised. Then we are called to forgive them . . . as hard as that may seem, the Lord is emphatic that we forgive.

Any teacher is prone to say and teach things in error . . . any of them (again, because of the flesh and overall human limitations). Now we may judge that certain ministering ones are better, but how accurate are our judgements, considering we carry the influence of the same flesh? We must admit that at the end of the day, we are all just sheep! Some sheep may think they're better, and smarter (even thinking they're not sheep), but that's how the Lord describes all of us.

So I think it's a stretch to say the leaders of the LC were not responsible for ANY of the blessing we enjoyed back then. They were members of the body like the rest of us. Prone to errors? Sure, and some unfortunate big ones which harmed the body. But it's up to us to rightly divide what was according to sound teaching and what wasn't, just like any ministry.

[Robert]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Every couple weeks I hear of some other Christian teacher that is reputed to have sinned or promoted some type of error. This is just the nature of our exitance on this planet at this time. We know that we carry the flesh, and are all capable of its litany of manifested problems. If we dig deep enough, any teacher can be shown to have shortcomings in either their life or teachings or both. Nothing should surprise us in that respect . . . nothing.

And of course, we point out the error, but we really should not be that surprised. Then we are called to forgive them . . . as hard as that may seem, the Lord is emphatic that we forgive.

Any teacher is prone to say and teach things in error . . . any of them (again, because of the flesh and overall human limitations). Now we may judge that certain ministering ones are better, but how accurate are our judgements, considering we carry the influence of the same flesh? We must admit that at the end of the day, we are all just sheep! Some sheep may think they're better, and smarter (even thinking they're not sheep), but that's how the Lord describes all of us.

So I think it's a stretch to say the leaders of the LC were not responsible for ANY of the blessing we enjoyed back then. They were members of the body like the rest of us. Prone to errors? Sure, and some unfortunate big ones which harmed the body. But it's up to us to rightly divide what was according to sound teaching and what wasn't, just like any ministry.

Good to hear so wise and balanced words. Thank You StG!
I hope there is no hidden bitterness in my heart toward LC or any brother.
But I think, that in few cases I know ( from former members) the main reason of "so big" disappointment was "so big" expectation of that high pick revelation among saints.
The more we talk about heavenly things, the more we expect to see change and progress in our lives.
And the biggest problem was lack of simple "I am sorry, I was wrong".
But as You said by other words, when we care about our own relationship with Christ then we can see, that we are not better than others.
Thank You for redirecting to Christ.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

Some sheep may think they're better, and smarter (even thinking they're not sheep), but that's how the Lord describes all of us.

A friend of mine's family ran a sheep ranch. He said sheep are the dumbest animals on the planet. He said they are born looking for a place to die. This irony should not be lost on us.

So I think it's a stretch to say the leaders of the LC were not responsible for ANY of the blessing we enjoyed back then. They were members of the body like the rest of us. Prone to errors? Sure, and some unfortunate big ones which harmed the body. But it's up to us to rightly divide what was according to sound teaching and what wasn't, just like any ministry.

I agree and I meant to imply that. Certainly leaders, including Lee, helped some. But what the LR would have us think is that it was the "uniqueness" Lee that made it happen.

I would say it was the unusually strong devotion of the whole movement that made it happen. The LR made clear that it did not want to be just another Christian church. That push increased devotion, which increased results. But there is a dark side to that as well, which we saw and experienced. Once you start believing your own PR, you're done.

But you're right, everyone is flawed. And everyone is blessed. If we could just keep it at that the Church overall would do much better.