Ravi Zacharias - "What Ravi did and Where Where Do We Go From Here"

[Awoken]

Wow. This message just resonated in all the right ways regarding the Ravi Zacharias scandal. I personally am not/was not a Ravi follower (too busy following WL back then, of course), but I also think this whole thing absolutely applies to Lee's ministry and cover-up involving his son's impropriety (and who knows what else), which should be publicized.

I especially just want to share the part of this message that starts at around the 1 hour and 34 minute mark, where Mr. Winger points out, for all the people who believed in Jesus because of Ravi Zacharias's preaching or because of Ravi's words, that there were people who believed legitimately in the gospel, had demons cast out, and/or were baptized by Judas Iscariot. Wow. Can you imagine the conflict those people went through after finding out what kind of "spiritual father" they had? Yet I love the way he presents this - it wasn't the person who preached the facts, but the facts of the gospel, the truth, that saved them, as it was with anyone who was saved because of someone like Ravi (or WL).

(View video below or click this link to go to YouTube.)

IMPORTANT NOTICE: No media files are hosted on these forums. By clicking the link below you agree to view content from an external website. We can not be held responsible for the suitability or legality of this material. If the video does not play, wait a minute or try again later.

I AGREE

Here is the full report: https://s3-us-west-2.amazonaws.com/r...estigation.pdf

{Rather than fostering an environment of truth-seeking and transparency, Mr. Zacharias was strident and inflammatory. He described his critics as “nasty people” and “lunatics” who were engaging in “‘satanic-type’ slander and falsehood.” Some RZIM staff told us that he expressed frustration with having to issue an apology at all. He was able to convince many that not only was he innocent, he was the victim of malicious “evil.”}

....Hmm, sounds kinda familiar, doesn't it?

[aron]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

{Rather than fostering an environment of truth-seeking and transparency, Mr. Zacharias was strident and inflammatory. He described his critics as “nasty people” and “lunatics” who were engaging in “‘satanic-type’ slander and falsehood.” Some RZIM staff told us that he expressed frustration with having to issue an apology at all. He was able to convince many that not only was he innocent, he was the victim of malicious “evil.”}

....Hmm, sounds kinda familiar, doesn't it?

Very familiar. In the case of Mr Zacharias, the fact that he set up as co-owner of a day spa with imported workers is bad enough. Whether or not he engaged in sexual trafficking is almost beside the point. As with Witness Lee, dunning the local churches for money for his for-profit business. That Daystar went belly-up and much of money disappeared - "my personal business", he told Sal Benoit - is almost incidental. How much money disappeared, and where... the fact that nobody can know is damning enough.

In both cases, the appearance of evil is more than sufficient, as it is. How much fire is behind the billowing clouds of smoke? How many corpses behind the stench?

And both have their implacable, stalwart defenders: "Who are you to judge? We're all short of God's glory". Are you kidding me?? When did I set up training centres round the globe? Give me a break! How obtuse do you think we are, here?

These men set themselves up as leaders. They did their utmost to convince us that it was so... God's humble bond-slave and all that. Rubbish.

Not many of you should become teachers, my brothers, for you know that we who teach will be judged with greater strictness. ~James 3:1 (ESV)

[Trapped]

Awoken, thanks for posting this. I had forgotten Mike Winger was going to put something out and I'm in the middle of watching it right now.

Would that I could round up all the co-workers and elders in the Lord's recovery and make them sit in a room and watch this stuff.

aron, I, too, have been utterly disgusted as well as very depressed at the sheer volume of comments I've seen on social media that say things like:

-I, for one, will not be throwing the first stone
-who among us is without sin?
-we must forgive him
-how tormented he must have felt!
-I still love and respect him for his work
-David sinned terribly and was still a man after God's own heart
-judge not!
-we are in no position to judge. God is the only judge.

....and on and on and on...

My stomach turns just writing those things, because it tells me that even the larger Christian community, unbelievably, has the same mindset as the local church does toward sin and predatory sexual abuse, and knows just enough of scripture to be about as dangerous in the church as I can think of, but not enough to make the church in general a remotely safe place.

And that is something that's going to take me a while to stop being affected by. I'm bothered that people aren't as bothered as they should be.

For the DCP men (I won't call you brothers) who monitor this site - watch the video that Awoken posted. Read the letter that RZIM put out. See, maybe for the first time in your life, the Biblical response to darkness and evil in the church. Know that the sin and abuse and evil that you have hidden and covered and slandered victims of will not remain hidden forever, and you will be utterly without excuse unless you turn your course and take steps to repent and to bring the truth to light.

[aron]

I watched well-known evangelical Christians as they eulogized at his funeral, including NFL player Tim Tebow and VP Mike Pence. My first thought was, "We made this man in our image." We projected what we wanted [needed] him to be so that through him we could find what we thought we wanted ourselves to be. He was, and remains, at least somewhat our creation, representing in our minds a reflection of where we felt we were going. That's what leaders do, you know: they lead. In my case, I saw an erudite and confident person, and thought that I saw myself in a distant mirror. Witness Lee did it to me, and then Ravi Zacharias, but I let them, I did it to myself. And both times my delusion was exposed, and I must now repent.

And then I thought that RZ was so charming, both in the contemporary sense but also the original sense of sorcery, of deceitful and manipulative spirits. He, Nee, and Lee were charismatic, projecting themselves (and their needs) onto us, and we took it and reflected back. I got charmed, and now I repent. The first words of both Jesus and John the Baptist, coming up out of the wilderness, were "repent". Amen, Lord.

And then I thought that the whole apparati of these 'ministers' - the Ravi Zacharias International Ministries [RZIM] and Living Stream Ministry [LSM] dba Local Church/Lord's Recovery - were just tools for them to play out their pathologies. RZ had shell companies to make payments to his massage therapists, and cover his multiple Bangkok apartments, and WL had Philip Lee as "the Office" and Timothy Lee's importing ventures, and Daystar and the rest of it. The "church" was merely a construct for the predator. (Even today, I believe the "church" is making payments to WL's family.)

And I wondered, would any of those somber, well-dressed folk in their pious reflections of sorrow and gratitude for RZ pause, had they known he owned massage parlours in strip malls in the Atlanta suburbs? How many did know, and kept up the charade, because it was easier to deny what lay behind the facts than to face it? And then I realized that all the charm, all the intelligence, all the passion are nothing, because Satan is more charming, clever, and driven than we are. We really need God's mercy. I need God's mercy. Lord Jesus have mercy.

Originally Posted by Unreg

It was a relief in the small sense that the puzzle finally got solved and yielded a coherent picture. But it was devastating at the same time -- my faith got rocked and my Christian life got shipwrecked by the disappointment. Blindness is not always willful, and the more painful the picture, the more innate subconscious defense mechanisms there are to prevent you from seeing it.

[Awoken]

It definitely goes to show you that we are the biggest threat to ourselves. We love propping up men and putting our trust in them even when we don't know we're doing it. It's what the Israelites did with Saul/David (give us a king, we want a king!). And a lot of these big leaders maybe did receive something from God they were meant to invest in others, not in their own image/power, and... what happened? Maybe they should have been praying more prayers like "God, keep me humble and focused on the few that you really put around me, and save me from drawing crowds and focusing on that". Maybe they should have been putting more of those big ministry bucks into non-personal causes... giving to the poor, making sure their own slice of the pie stayed small. Or maybe they should have just backed away from all the success out of godly fear. Somebody else (I can't recall who, but I read it and appreciated it, sorry for my bad memory) posted on here not long ago about some pastors who shared that the three big threats to men of God are always money, pride, and sex. That hasn't changed much (at all) over the centuries.

Just listened to a tiny bit of one of his sermons (https://youtu.be/M3kM6Rax1AU). Maybe it's my bias from already knowing about his misconduct & double-life, but I sensed some similarities in his speaking to that of LC leaders. Also obviously couldn't even listen/watch this man without feeling disgusted. Someone mentioned in a comment that they just found his sermon a few months ago and have been "devouring" all his messages since then (this was maybe before the allegations came into full view?). IDK, for some reason it bothers me that many of these "christian" leaders have a certain pull and charisma, and people latch onto that so easily. With all his evil deeds while preaching in the name of Christ, does it even matter if he was speaking the truth or not? As for me, there is absolutely no way I could separate someone's message from their patterns of action. This man was a liar and a hypocrite, he had no desire to repent and thought he could get away with his evil deeds.

1 John 3:8-10 ESV
Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

Hi, I am an occasional follower of this site and if it's ok, I would like the grace to ask some questions. I haven't watched the video yet, so also, forgive me if what I am about to ask is addressed clearly in the video. And please don't read too deeply into my questions, as I have been doing a lot of prayer and soul-searching concerning the Ravi situation and this is just one part of the process of me going before the Lord in this matter.

While I think what Ravi did was disgusting and horrendous, can you guys tell me exactly what you're ultimately saying concerning his salvation (i.e. wolf versus sheep)? I'm reading comments such as the one in reference to Judas Iscariot, and the comments from "Trapped", and the reference to 1 John 3:8-10, etc...and am wondering if you all are saying that Ravi was never truly a regenerated believer.

If this is indeed what you're saying, what exactly would be the reasons? Is it the essence of what 1 John 3:8-10 says in terms of habitual sin?

I just find myself having a hard time with the overall theme of this thread. Again, I am not trying to downplay or excuse Ravi's grievous acts, just trying to understand if you're all suggesting Ravi was one big imposter who is not in the Lord's presence ("heaven") right now.

Thank you.

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hi, I am an occasional follower of this site and if it's ok, I would like the grace to ask some questions. I haven't watched the video yet, so also, forgive me if what I am about to ask is addressed clearly in the video. And please don't read too deeply into my questions, as I have been doing a lot of prayer and soul-searching concerning the Ravi situation and this is just one part of the process of me going before the Lord in this matter.

While I think what Ravi did was disgusting and horrendous, can you guys tell me exactly what you're ultimately saying concerning his salvation (i.e. wolf versus sheep)? I'm reading comments such as the one in reference to Judas Iscariot, and the comments from "Trapped", and the reference to 1 John 3:8-10, etc...and am wondering if you all are saying that Ravi was never truly a regenerated believer.

If this is indeed what you're saying, what exactly would be the reasons? Is it the essence of what 1 John 3:8-10 says in terms of habitual sin?

I just find myself having a hard time with the overall theme of this thread. Again, I am not trying to downplay or excuse Ravi's grievous acts, just trying to understand if you're all suggesting Ravi was one big imposter who is not in the Lord's presence ("heaven") right now.

Thank you.

Hi Occasional Follower,

The question you raise is one that was recently discussed briefly on the former Alt-views forum (regarding sin after salvation....or sin after what appears to be salvation), so the record of that discussion isn't around anymore. But it's a good question, and relevant for all of us. I'm not sure I can drill down and make a confident claim, but I can tell you the portions of scripture that come to mind, and maybe in sum those portions will say enough.

The first thing that comes to mind is Matthew 18. In Matthew 18 Jesus tells us the way to deal with sins or offenses in the church. It's the "three strikes and you're out" rule. If you go directly to the offending party, and they refuse to hear, then widen the circle. If the widened circle goes to the offending party and they refuse to hear, then widen the circle even more to include the church. If the offending party still refuses to hear even the church.....you are to treat that offender as a pagan and a tax collector. Tax collectors were just about the most hated, reviled people in that day. In other words, treat someone who sins and knows it and doesn't repent as if they are not in the church, as if they are an unbeliever. Why? Well, my guess is that it's because they actually ARE an unbeliever!

In 1 Corinthians 5, Paul deals with a situation with some arguable similarities here, at least in the sense of a repeatedly sexually immoral person. His comments are things like:

-"Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this?"
-"I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—[in the church]"
-"But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people."
-“Expel the wicked person from among you.”

In other words, for the unrepentant habitual sinner - get the dude out of the church. He has no place in the church. And if you're not part of the church, what are you? Well......I would call that an unbeliever. It's not until 2 Corinthians 2 that we see the sexually immoral man was brought back into the church due to his "excessive sorrow". (verse 7: Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow.) In other words, due to his genuine and sincere repentance. So he was repentant, and if a brother repents of their sin, then we know they are a believer. For unrepentant habitual sinners, that's not a believer. And Paul tells them to reaffirm their love for the repentant man. In other words, yes, love covers all......but it doesn't cover a hardened heart. The New Testament is replete with calls for repentance in order to receive forgiveness.

And then we've got 1 John 3:8-10 as you mentioned that others brought up. Since we all know that we DO sin even after our genuine salvation, I have always understood this portion to refer to habitual sin, or walking in sin, or having a sin-characterized life. If you read Bible commentaries, they all seem to agree similarly.

Unfortunately, all the signs from the independent investigation commissioned by RZIM point to Ravi walking in sexual abuse and manipulation, habitually, intentionally, repeatedly. They point to someone who did not repent, but instead knew exactly what he was doing and covered it up and lied about it. And they point to someone who used his position and gravitas of a "Christian" minister to manipulate and control and groom women to the point he had them pray with him to thank God for the "gift" (of extra-marital, abusive sexual relations) He was about to give both of them. In one case he told the women to keep quiet or else the salvation of millions of souls would be on her head. This is blatant spiritual, sexual, and emotional abuse. And he knew what he was doing.

No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God.

It's an important discussion, and I certainly don't have all the answers. If you have more thoughts or questions about it, I don't think this is a discussion to shy away from.....we're all ears.

Trapped

[HERn]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hi, I am an occasional follower of this site and if it's ok, I would like the grace to ask some questions. I haven't watched the video yet, so also, forgive me if what I am about to ask is addressed clearly in the video. And please don't read too deeply into my questions, as I have been doing a lot of prayer and soul-searching concerning the Ravi situation and this is just one part of the process of me going before the Lord in this matter.

While I think what Ravi did was disgusting and horrendous, can you guys tell me exactly what you're ultimately saying concerning his salvation (i.e. wolf versus sheep)? I'm reading comments such as the one in reference to Judas Iscariot, and the comments from "Trapped", and the reference to 1 John 3:8-10, etc...and am wondering if you all are saying that Ravi was never truly a regenerated believer.

If this is indeed what you're saying, what exactly would be the reasons? Is it the essence of what 1 John 3:8-10 says in terms of habitual sin?

I just find myself having a hard time with the overall theme of this thread. Again, I am not trying to downplay or excuse Ravi's grievous acts, just trying to understand if you're all suggesting Ravi was one big imposter who is not in the Lord's presence ("heaven") right now.

Thank you.

The Lord said the first will be last and the last will be first. To me death is like a filter, the only thing that passes through is sanctified character. My guess is that Ravi’s had all the praise, honor and glory he’s going to get. But I think he’ll fall flat on his face when he realizes the great cost his Lord suffered for salvation of his miserable ego-inflated soul. (But what do I know, I’m a “once saved always saved” Baptist kind of guy. I’m open to other views).

[Trapped]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Just listened to a tiny bit of one of his sermons (https://youtu.be/M3kM6Rax1AU). Maybe it's my bias from already knowing about his misconduct & double-life, but I sensed some similarities in his speaking to that of LC leaders. Also obviously couldn't even listen/watch this man without feeling disgusted. Someone mentioned in a comment that they just found his sermon a few months ago and have been "devouring" all his messages since then (this was maybe before the allegations came into full view?). IDK, for some reason it bothers me that many of these "christian" leaders have a certain pull and charisma, and people latch onto that so easily. With all his evil deeds while preaching in the name of Christ, does it even matter if he was speaking the truth or not? As for me, there is absolutely no way I could separate someone's message from their patterns of action. This man was a liar and a hypocrite, he had no desire to repent and thought he could get away with his evil deeds.

1 John 3:8-10 ESV
Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

Unregistered,

Yeah, I was intrigued by his speaking at first, and he did have a few classic one-liners, but to be honest I quickly dropped listening to him for some of the other Christian apologists whose answers had more biblical substance. I have certainly been deflated by what the investigations have revealed, though. But Ravi's answers sometimes left me thinking "well, you just used a bunch of flowery words to make a wow-ing statement about something the person didn't even ask about!" But the charm and charisma and soft-spoken presentation and stories he told of his time all over the world were outwardly attractive....until you started paying attention to whether he was shooting straight related to the topic at hand. He was intelligent, to be sure. But when someone is revealed to have been a double-tongued liar, then anything that came out of his mouth becomes utterly tainted in my view. Anything he said that is the truth has already been proclaimed on this earth by people who are not evil abusers. Even evil men can speak the truth sometimes. But there is only one man who IS the truth.

I think it's fair to say that one red flag is that they named their ministry after themselves...

Trapped

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Hi, I am an occasional follower of this site and if it's ok, I would like the grace to ask some questions. I haven't watched the video yet, so also, forgive me if what I am about to ask is addressed clearly in the video. And please don't read too deeply into my questions, as I have been doing a lot of prayer and soul-searching concerning the Ravi situation and this is just one part of the process of me going before the Lord in this matter.

While I think what Ravi did was disgusting and horrendous, can you guys tell me exactly what you're ultimately saying concerning his salvation (i.e. wolf versus sheep)? I'm reading comments such as the one in reference to Judas Iscariot, and the comments from "Trapped", and the reference to 1 John 3:8-10, etc...and am wondering if you all are saying that Ravi was never truly a regenerated believer.

If this is indeed what you're saying, what exactly would be the reasons? Is it the essence of what 1 John 3:8-10 says in terms of habitual sin?

I just find myself having a hard time with the overall theme of this thread. Again, I am not trying to downplay or excuse Ravi's grievous acts, just trying to understand if you're all suggesting Ravi was one big imposter who is not in the Lord's presence ("heaven") right now.

Thank you.

Here is my .02 worth.

First off. I never followed Ravi’s ministry. But I knew of him. I believe if we are truly saved, we are truly saved. To be saved means to believe in Jesus as our personal Savior. We must have a truly repentant heart and we must trust His cleansing Blood washed away all our sins. We are a new born again person in Him.

We start out as babes in Christ then grow and mature. With each growth spurt comes tests. As we pass the tests, we mature a bit more.

I think the biggest test is living a humbled life when we have attained maturity.

Christian TV, the pro$perity gospel and mega churches have turned many a once humble anointed teacher/preacher of the Word into a very rich proud religious celebrity. Pride was Lucifer’s downfall.

That said, if Ravi Zacharias was truly saved, he is with the Lord. However, the scriptures speak of rewards.


Jeremiah 17:10 says
I the Lord search all hearts and examine secret motives. I give all people their due rewards according to what their actions deserve.


1 Corinthians 3:12-15 says

12 Anyone who builds on that foundation may use a variety of materials—gold, silver, jewels, wood, hay, or straw. 13 But on the judgment day, fire will reveal what kind of work each builder has done. The fire will show if a person’s work has any value. 14 If the work survives, that builder will receive a reward.

But if the work is burned up, the builder will suffer great loss. The builder will be saved, but like someone barely escaping through a wall of flames.

Paul also wrote in vs 10:

10 Because of God’s grace to me, I have laid the foundation like an expert builder. Now others are building on it. But whoever is building on this foundation must be very careful. 11 For no one can lay any foundation other than the one we already have—Jesus Christ.

I don’t know if Ravi was truly saved. If he was, it is very probable he suffered great loss of rewards due to his actions. He may have escaped eternal damnation. But pretty sure God will have words with him at the Judgement seat of Christ.

If he was pretending to be a true believer, taking advantage of eloquent sermons, deceiving people he was a true man of God, then he will pay the price for his evil doings.

However. God’s Word does not return void. If many people became believers and followers of Jesus, sanctified by the Blood of the Lamb, their faith in Christ will not waiver. They may be disappointed in having trusted this man of faith.

They are no different from us who followed Witness Lee’s teachings. I got truly saved in the LC. My journey in how to read and study the scriptures began there.

I learned and grew strong in the Lord in the LC because I trusted Jesus. I trusted in His Precious Blood. I sought the LORD in the scriptures. The Holy Spirit enlightened me. I loved the church life and the fellowship when it was centered around Jesus and not “Brother Lee”.

Jesus saved me, not Lee and his teachings. Those who trusted Lee more than Jesus are the ones who are missing out.

Ravi Zacharias was protected by his henchmen just as Lee was protected by his henchmen. I have read they knew for years that Ravi had sex with lots of women throughout the world but he must have paid them and the women very well and thus they kept quiet.

Again. If Ravi was truly saved his spirit and soul are with the Lord and he is probably shedding tears of regret for his actions. If he was a fake, We know what the scriptures say about that.

Either way, GOD will deal with his soul.

And that is my .02 worth as I read and seek the Holy Spirit to enlighten the scriptures to me.

May we all come to trust in God’s Mercy which endures forever.

[aron]

Originally Posted by countmeworthy

I think the biggest test is living a humbled life when we have attained maturity..

True that. We are tested after decades of faith, just as surely as we're tested after days.

Originally Posted by HERn

The Lord said the first will be last and the last will be first. To me death is like a filter, the only thing that passes through is sanctified character.

Like cmw quoting Paul, "You shall be saved, but as through fire." The eternal salvation and the loss of reward are not necessarily the same thing.

My case in point is Moses, who failed, and fell short of the glory. The story of the failed generation, including Moses [!!] is repeated in the NT, both in Corinthians and in Hebrews. They had faith, and left Egypt, but they didn't have enough faith, and fell. But in the gospels, Moses is seen standing on the Mount of Transfiguration with Jesus. To fall in the wilderness is therefore not eternal perdition, but a loss of rest, of reward, the proverbial "good land".

----

Yet this is irrelevant, here... to me, there are two questions before us. First: what to do with the person who continues willfully to sin after salvation? "Put the evil man out of your congregation", Paul says. That's unequivocal. Both Ravi Zacharias and Witness Lee, when confronted, turned into bullies. They didn't repent. So they're "out" of the congregation. What their eternal status is, is irrelevant. The LORD is the judge of all, those who are in the congregation, and those who are out. And RZ and WL by their unwillingness to repent, are out.

The second question is, what to do with leaders who are caught in sin, who get ensnared by temptations of power, riches, lust, and after being confronted, they repent? What then? Then, they're still in the assembly, but their leadership role is done. Their books and lectures are irrevocably marred. There was some spirit other than Christ at work. Something of self was insinuating in the ministry, so let their work go.

Yet over and over again, we see leaders who fail, later attempt a "comeback", which makes me wary of their repentance. Their goal is not Christ but to be lifted up over others, to get money from the flock, the soft pillows and easy living. Ted Haggard ended up running a new congregation. Jim Bakker got a new television show, post-prison. Some of the "New Apostolic Reformation" leaders, caught in egregious sin, simply try to hit "reset" and pretend it never happened. And if anyone challenges them, they shrug and say, "We all sin."

Yes, we all sin, but our leaders should be held to a higher standard. Both Jesus and Paul were explicit. I already quoted James 3:1 in post #4. Then, "To whom much is given, much is required", etc etc.. I could go on. Leaders should have greater capacity to understand, to teach, and also to resist temptation's snares.

So even if RZ and WL had repented, and confessed, and asked our forgiveness, and we'd received them back into fellowship, their leadership position would still be over. Same with WN - I don't judge his faith, but I question his ability to shepherd the flock in any larger sense.

[Awoken]

Originally Posted by HERn

The Lord said the first will be last and the last will be first. To me death is like a filter, the only thing that passes through is sanctified character. My guess is that Ravi’s had all the praise, honor and glory he’s going to get. But I think he’ll fall flat on his face when he realizes the great cost his Lord suffered for salvation of his miserable ego-inflated soul. (But what do I know, I’m a “once saved always saved” Baptist kind of guy. I’m open to other views).

Regarding this, I just want to comment a little (hopefully without being divisive), as I have been thinking about the OSAS vs. Lordship Salvation debate a fair bit since leaving the LCs. I find that mostly people seem to use those two views as clubs to bash each other on the head a lot, at least online (not accusing you of that, just stating a fact, with the comments section of any arbitrary Christian Youtube video as evidence). The conclusion I've ultimately come to is that I think BOTH things are true and we believers do a terrible job of representing that a lot of the time. God is able to save eternally and I feel His eternal salvation is fully effective... in those who ARE actually saved. On the other hand it's clear from other Biblical passages that not only will many who thought they were saved not actually be saved ("Not all who say to me 'Lord, Lord'..."), but that the Lord can retract the grace He would have given if a believer "eats and drinks with the drunken" and "beats his fellow slaves"... what does the Lord promise about such people?

Matthew 24:48 But suppose that servant is wicked and says in his heart, ‘My master will be away a long time.’ 49 And he begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50 The master of that servant will come on a day he does not expect and at an hour he does not anticipate. 51 Then he will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Cutting someone to pieces and assigning their place with the hypocrites... is that salvation? Hm, I dunno, I'm not a theologian, but whatever it is, we should be afraid of it. What Ravi did seems like a textbook case of what the Lord is illustrating here.

I also think there's a big problem any time we say God "can't" do something... like we are trapping God into some kind of verbal "gotcha". "God you promised me salvation, now I can do whatever I want and still be saved!"... well... I don't know about that, but I think that's a pretty terrible attitude to have. (Again, I'm not saying AT ALL, HERn, that this is your doctrine/thinking, but I want to point out what I think is a major problem among Christians today, especially in America - a total lack of the fear of God and a pious heart. For me at least that is what I perceive to have been a major characterization of MY Christian past, that in spite of "believing" I didn't fear God enough to be serious about certain things, and I'm thankful that He has put me through some situations and also that he's shaking things up on the national stage to show us that fear of God is legitimately necessary and we shouldn't take the Bible lightly and think He's just a God who oozes love and kindness and good stuff without having a righteous side).

So OSAS, don't know, Lordship Salvation, don't know... I think those are both just selective doctrines that focus on specific verses of the Bible and leave out others. Better to just be a Bible-believing Christian and walk in the fear (and love) of God, as we are encouraged by John, the Lord Himself, and many others...

[aron]

Originally Posted by Awoken

So OSAS, don't know, Lordship Salvation, don't know... I think those are both just selective doctrines that focus on specific verses of the Bible and leave out others. Better to just be a Bible-believing Christian and walk in the fear (and love) of God, as we are encouraged by John, the Lord Himself, and many others...

Yes, overstressing any aspect of Scripture - either salvation by faith or reward by works (which works aren't replacing faith but are demonstrations thereof [cf Ja 2:14-26]) isn't profitable.

But I wanted to come back to another point, because our focus isn't on WL, WN, or RZ, who are now gone, but about we who remain. Why do we gather around some people, lift them up unduly, ignore warning signs?

Mike Pence: "In Ravi Zacharias, God gave us the greatest Christian apologist of this century." One should probably never say this of anyone, just like we shouldn't say "Witness Lee is MOTA" - no believer should be held as uniquely superior. But my question is, Why do we do this? I want to expose such enabling errors.

My answer is, identity: we identify ourselves with what we perceive as greatness, what we aspire to. I felt that associating myself with the ministry of Witness Lee and Watchman Nee I was on "the express elevator to the top", as I put it in my youthful mind. I was no longer "just a Christian" but now "a Christian associated with the ministry of WL and WN", which I felt was vastly superior. So by my identification and association, my portion supposedly increased.

Originally Posted by aron

I watched well-known evangelical Christians as they eulogized at his funeral, including NFL player Tim Tebow and VP Mike Pence. My first thought was, "We made this man in our image." We projected what we wanted [needed] him to be so that through him we could find what we thought we wanted ourselves to be. He was, and remains, at least somewhat our creation, representing in our minds a reflection of where we felt we were going.

And if RZ got Tim Tebow to publicly identify and associate himself with RZIM, then donations would go up, as a new demographic would tune in through TT. If I go to Charity Navigator, they list income: FY 2013 at $18 million; FY 2014 at $22 million; FY 2015 at $25 million. It seems that RZIM profited through the association with folks like TT and MP.

That's the outer ring, the dupes. Then there's the inner ring, who profit directly by pushing RZ as "minister of the age", or "The greatest apologist on earth" or whatever. On the same Charity Navigator page, under "Salary of key persons", I see daughter "Sarah [Zacharias] Davis" as "Director" getting $208,000.00. Do you think she wants the truth? I doubt it. Think of all the padded expenses were added to that $208,000.00 annual salary. She had a strong incentive to promote RZ. Then, other daughter Naomi runs "Wellspring", a "humanitarian" arm of RZIM. Then wife Margie and son Nathan had paid "staff positions" of salary/benefits unknown. There were literally dozens I'm sure whose well-being was directly tied to promoting and preserving an image, and how much that image corresponded to reality, was secondary.

And I believe the same kind of dynamic existed at LSM. A host of well-meaning and ignorant dupes, then as you enter the inner ring, a group whose consciences have been altered by increasingly dependent and compromised relations with the source of corruption. They (board of directors etc) are supposed to be safeguards of the public trust, but are instead chief enablers of the abuse.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by aron

...But I wanted to come back to another point, because we shouldn't worry about WL, WN, or RZ, who are gone, but about ourselves, who remain. Why do we gather around some people, lift them up unduly, ignore warning signs?
...
My answer is identity: we identify ourselves with what we perceive as greatness. I felt that associating myself with the ministry of Witness Lee and Watchman Nee, and I was on "the express elevator to the top", as I put it in my youthful mind. I was no longer "just a Christian" but "a Christian associated with the ministry of WL and WN", which I felt was vastly superior. So by association, my portion increased.
...

Why? Why did the woman eat of the forbidden tree? She was deceived.
Why do people gather around the RZ, WL, and WN's of the world? Deception.

We identify with "greatness" because of pride.

Again, why? We "...wrestle not against Lee, Nee, Zacharias, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. "

Again, why? Because we fail to give credit where credit is due. We blame everyone and/or everything except God's enemy. Our enemy. Every "spiritual" problem has a spiritual solution.

This deception began in the garden and has not lessened to this day.

Nell

Thanks, everyone, for the grace and the wise words.

As I prayerfully consider all the input here, in combination with my seeking of the Lord in His Word....here are some current "takeaways" for myself:

- it's probably not beneficial to try to speculate/determine if RZ was truly saved or not
- true believers must always live in the proper fear of the Lord
- the response to fearing the Lord (and His holiness and ultimate judgment) should not be to try to "stop sinning" by our own will-power/self, which is a natural reaction to fearing the wrath God; but rather, the proper fear of God should cause us to confess before the Lord and all principalities our utter inadequacy to restrain from sin as fallen human beings, and our subsequent need for the Lord to be our strength (1 Cor. 10:13) and our continuous salvation/protection from sin (1 John 3:6a). Only Christ is able to keep us pure/holy!
- for men, sexual sin is THE predominant lifelong battle and temptation, and we must admit this (the title of the famous book/program "every man's battle" is indeed an appropriate and accurate statement)
- the sexual sin/failure of anyone in the church hurts the entire Body (1 Thess. 4:6)
- as the Body, we ought to always be mindful to encourage and spur each other on ("more and more") in our walk with the Lord (1 Thess. 4:1, 10)
- as modeled especially by the Apostle Paul, believers ought to always be in prayer for one another (prayer is a spontaneous response to true love for someone, and perhaps the most valuable thing we can do on behalf of another)
- may the Lord have mercy on me and on us all


All glory and praise be to the One who has never and will never fail.

[UntoHim]

Ravi Zacharias was an itinerant Christian preacher/philosopher/apologist. He was not a church leader of any kind. Neither Zacharias nor RZIM ministries was officially accredited, affiliated, sponsored or sanctioned by any particular Christian denomination, organization or ministry. There was no official (and apparently no unofficial) oversite, checks and balances or safe-guards put in place by Ravi or other ministry leaders. (sound familiar?)

Ravi Zacharias International Ministries was founded upon, and based in, the person and work of Ravi Zacharias, and it has remained so up until this very day, some 9 months after his death. Now Zacharias' reputation and standing among the Christian public is in shambles. He has been found to be a liar and sexual abuser of women. His personal Christian witness has been destroyed. So much for his person. What are we to take away from his life's work - his ministry? How much of Zacharias' work - his personal ministry - should be discarded? Some of it? Most of it? All of it? What is to become of the RZIM organization that has been built upon the person and work of this man? Should they immediately and totally disband? Should all of the 100+ RZIM staff, speakers and writers disband and find other places of work, ministry and income?

The similarities of the downfall and implosion of Ravi Zacharias and his personal ministry are strikingly similar to what we have seen and experienced with the Local Church of Witness Lee/Living Stream Ministry for decades. The warning signs were there. The abuse was not only denied, the victims were attacked, vilified and set aside. Instead of legitimate inquiry and investigation, there was indignation and character assassination. Anything and everything was done to protect the person of the cult of personality. Even after the person passed away, anything and everything is done to protect and preserve him as "our dear brother".

RZIM is at a crossroads. Will there be a corporate repentance? Will those who were in a position to know, and ignored the signs, step down and let others take the lead in management and direction? Will the family members that Ravi placed in positions of trust and honor repent and seek restoration and compensation to the many victims? Will they also step down and relinquish all interest, assets and royalties of RZIM to an elected and accountable board of directors? Much of the top management are Zacharias family members - daughter Sarah Davis (Global CEO) daughter Nahomi Zacharias (VP RZIM) and wife Margie Zacharias (VP & "Chief Culture Officer") See: https://julieroys.com/documents-show...ious-ministry/
-

[aron]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Ravi Zacharias was an itinerant Christian preacher/philosopher/apologist. He was not a church leader of any kind. Neither Zacharias nor RZIM ministries was officially accredited, affiliated, sponsored or sanctioned by any particular Christian denomination, organization or ministry.

"Zacharias was ordained by The Christian and Missionary Alliance in Canada in 1972 and retained his Alliance credentials (most recently with the U.S. Alliance), throughout his decades of ministry. He leaves behind Margie, his wife of 48 years, and three adult children."

https://www.cmalliance.org/news/2020...ias-1946-2020/

Originally Posted by UntoHim

There was no official (and apparently no unofficial) oversite, checks and balances or safe-guards put in place by Ravi or other ministry leaders. (sound familiar?)

There was $25 million revenue per year, noted to the Charity Navigator site. There was a board of directors, various charitable spin-offs... it all seemed legit. But everything centered round and depended on one "Great Man", who did as he pleased, and answered only to God. (sound familiar?)

Originally Posted by Nell

We identify with "greatness" because of pride....

This deception began in the garden and has not lessened to this day.

Very astute. I bought into this pseudo-greatness, because I didn't appreciate the greatness of Jesus Christ, nor my access through faith. So I was seeking "something more" and in my pride I was deceived.

The fact that "greatness" is sold can be seen in the statement of Mike Pence: "The greatest Christian apologist of this century." MP and others identified with RZ seeming to be great, and associated themselves with that. And I remember (BP?) in the LSM saying, "Nobody who ever left the Recovery became a great spiritual person." This shows they held WL as a "great spiritual person." But any who think thus, prior to the Judgment Seat of Christ, are deceived - only God makes such judgments. Your "greatness", or your "lack", will by tried and found out, but not by a PR firm or publicist, or the President of a publishing house.

Originally Posted by Unreg

Thanks, everyone, for the grace and the wise words. ....here are some current "takeaways" for myself:

All good points Unreg, I'd add to stay away from spiritual groups, organizations, churches, or ministries that excessively promote anyone the way RZIM and LSM did to their respective founders.

[countmeworthy]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Zacharias' reputation and standing among the Christian public is in shambles. He has been found to be a liar and sexual abuser of women. His personal Christian witness has been destroyed. So much for his person. What are we to take away from his life's work - his ministry? How much of Zacharias' work - his personal ministry - should be discarded? Some of it? Most of it? All of it?

If God’s Holy Spirit spoke to a person through Ravi’s teachings and it was TRUTH revealed, God’s Word will not be void. Through Née and Lee, I was taught biblically to call on the Lord Jesus with a pure heart. That it became a clinging sounding mantra in the LC did not affect me. I have always been conscientious not to make calling on the Name of the Lord a vain repetition.

Née and Lee did teach some good biblical truths. As we know, Not everything they taught was Truth. It was merely their interpretation. I got rid of my recovery version Bible because it was too filled with footnotes. I remember once looking at a footnote, then referenced it to another footnote on the same same scripture. It totally contradicted the other footnote. These were FOOTNOTES mind you not scripture.

In any case, I got rid of it. Plus the Holy Spirit will enlighten what we are reading, studying IF WE LET HIM! Too many times, we tend to trust some pastor’s or preacher’s interpretation of a passage instead of checking with the LORD Himself on the meaning.

The worldwide church has become a lazy bunch. That’s why the Kenneth Copeland’s, Joel Olsteen’s of this world draw thousands if not millions of followers to their like.

They may tickle people’s ears but one Word of Truth from even them can turn the heart to the Lord.

A quick testimony: Years after I left the LC, I slowly put the Lord on the back burner. It was not intentional but the devil trapped me. The Lord took pity on me and thus rescued me but it did not come without much repentance and shedding buckets of tears. I was so ashamed. I could not shake it no matter how much I prayed for forgiveness.

One day I came across Joel Olsteen and Joyce Myers teachings on TV. This was in 2004. I know that I know God used them to comfort me and lift my spirit up.

That started the healing process. Had God not used them, I may have suffered a severe nervous breakdown. I don’t watch them anymore. But the Lord did use them to help me and I am forever thankful He did. I believe they have a reward coming to them for ‘saving me’ from going into a deep depression.

We are told Trust in the Lord with all your heart. Lean not on your understanding.

May we all come to trust the LORD to teach us and direct our hearts and minds through the direction of God’s Holy Spirit and His Love for us.

Blessings be upon all reading this thread.

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by aron

"Zacharias was ordained by The Christian and Missionary Alliance in Canada in 1972 and retained his Alliance credentials (most recently with the U.S. Alliance), throughout his decades of ministry. He leaves behind Margie, his wife of 48 years, and three adult children."

Good point. And this is why I intentionally didn't use the term ordained or credentialed. Anyone can be ordained a minister and get credentials from a Cracker Jack box. It means nothing. "Retained his credentials" means nothing. The C & MA had no official (or unofficial that we know of) oversite or influence over Zacharias or RZIM. And this was my point. No third party board, para-church organization or unaffiliated ministry had any oversite authority or influence. This is why when victims came forward there was no process in place to address any misconduct or abuse. The exact same thing has taken place in the Local Church of Witness Lee. The latest example has been posted right here on this forum. See thread: "What's going on in Oklahoma City?"

There was $25 million revenue per year. There was a board of directors. There were various charitable spin-offs. A cursory glance, and it seemed legit. But it was all centered around and dependent upon one person, one "Great Man", who did what he pleased, and answered to none but God. (sound familiar?)

More good points. LSM has a "board of directors" too. That and 3 bucks will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. At one time abuser/molester Phillip Lee was on the LSM board. At various times, Lee family members have been listed as board members and/or officers and received very tidy pennies from LSM. All for nothing but having the last name of Lee. If LSM was a publicly held corporation there would be investigations and charges of corporate/financial fraud and malfeasance. (just as there will probably be at RZIM in the near future)
-

[countmeworthy]

Everything you wrote is true Aaron. I especially echo your last good points:
”I'd add to stay away from spiritual groups, organizations, churches, or ministries that excessively promote anyone the way RZIM and LSM did to their respective founders.”

Originally Posted by aron

I'd add to stay away from spiritual groups, organizations, churches, or ministries that excessively promote anyone the way RZIM and LSM did to their respective founders.

Question:
I know with regard to WL and other LC leadership, the lack of a proper accountability system contributed greatly to their demise (as mentioned in this thread and many other threads). But, in general, for say...the general congregants, what does accountability look like? What is offered or encouraged in the way of maintaining accountability with one another?

I grew up in the LC (Anaheim), but left many years ago....and there was little to none. Not sure what things are like now.

[UntoHim]

One place to start would be the 7 standards set by The Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability (ECFA)
https://www.ecfa.org/PDF/ECFA_Seven_...tewardship.pdf


Standard 1 –
Doctrinal Issues – Every organization shall subscribe to a written statement of faith
clearly affirming a commitment to the evangelical Christian faith or shall otherwise
demonstrate such commitment, and shall operate in accordance with biblical truths and
practices.
Standard 2 –
Governance – Every organization shall be governed by a responsible board of not less
than five individuals, a majority of whom shall be independent, who shall meet at least
semiannually to establish policy and review its accomplishments.
Standard 3 –
Financial Oversight – Every organization shall prepare complete and accurate financial
statements. The board or a committee consisting of a majority of independent members
shall approve the engagement of an independent certified public accountant, review the
annual financial statements, and maintain appropriate communication with the
independent certified public accountant. The board shall be apprised of any material
weaknesses in internal control or other significant risks.
Standard 4 –
Use of Resources and Compliance with Laws – Every organization shall exercise the
appropriate management and controls necessary to provide reasonable assurance that
all of the organization’s operations are carried out and resources are used in a
responsible manner and in conformity with applicable laws and regulations, such
conformity taking into account biblical mandates.
Standard 5 –
Transparency – Every organization shall provide a copy of its current financial statements
upon written request and shall provide other disclosures as the law may require. The
financial statements required to comply with Standard 3 must be disclosed under this
standard.
An organization must provide a report, upon written request, including financial information
on any specific project for which it has sought or is seeking gifts.
Standard 6 –
Compensation-Setting and Related-Party Transactions – Every organization shall set
compensation of its top leader and address related-party transactions in a manner that
demonstrates integrity and propriety in conformity with ECFA's Policy for Excellence in
Compensation-Setting and Related-Party Transactions.
Standard 7 –
Stewardship of Charitable Gifts –
7.1 Truthfulness in Communications. In securing charitable gifts, all representations of
fact, descriptions of the financial condition of the organization, or narratives about
events must be current, complete, and accurate. References to past activities or
events must be appropriately dated. There must be no material omissions or
exaggerations of fact, use of misleading photographs, or any other communication
which would tend to create a false impression or misunderstanding.
7.2 Giver Expectations and Intent. Statements made about the use of gifts by an
organization in its charitable gift appeals must be honored. A giver’s intent relates
both to what was communicated in the appeal and to any instructions accompanying
the gift, if accepted by the organization. Appeals for charitable gifts must not create
unrealistic expectations of what a gift will actually accomplish.
7.3 Charitable Gift Communication. Every organization shall provide givers appropriate
and timely gift acknowledgments.
7.4 Acting in the Best Interest of Givers. When dealing with persons regarding
commitments on major gifts, an organization’s representatives must seek to guide
and advise givers to adequately consider their broad interests.
An organization must make every effort to avoid knowingly accepting a gift from, or
entering into a contract with, a giver that would place a hardship on the giver or place
the giver’s future well-being in jeopardy.
7.5 Percentage Compensation for Securing Charitable Gifts. An organization may
not base compensation of outside stewardship resource consultants or its own staff
directly or indirectly on a percentage of charitable contributions raised.
------------------------

[HERn]

Isn't LSM a member of ECFA?

[UntoHim]

I was thinking the same thing. I just checked while posting this and found that Living Stream Ministry is NOT listed as a member.

I do think that they were a member at one time, but at some point they were disqualified.

LSM is a listed on the rolls of Charity Navigator. They received a mediocre score of 75% The one category that affected their score the most - not having one single "independent board member". They scored a ZERO on this category. Gee....I wonder why?
-

[aron]

On holding leaders accountable, and the organizations and institutions that front them.

"What are the lessons we can learn? Some are obvious. When family members of founders occupy the controlling heights of an organization, they are placed under immense strain and face an obvious conflict of interest when their father is accused of misconduct. Rigorous, independent investigations should be mandatory when accusers come forward. Compliance with reasonable investigatory requests (such as turning over phones and other communications equipment) must be required. Governing boards should be powerful, independent, and transparent.

.. Do not trust instincts over evidence. Never say, “I know this man, and he would never do anything like this.” The goal of any organization facing claims of abuse should be discerning truth, not discrediting accusers. All accusers should be treated immediately — publicly and privately — with dignity and respect.

Christian ministries are populated by leadership teams who derive not just their paychecks but also their own public reputations from their affiliation with the famous founder. They’re admired in part because the founder is admired. They have influence in part because the founder has influence. When the founder fails, they lose more than a paycheck. There is powerful personal incentive to circle the wagons and to defend the ministry, even when that defense destroys lives." ~David French

https://frenchpress.thedispatch.com/...-from-complete

"The fall of Zacharias is a perfect example of why it is so difficult to cover independent, non-denominational parachurch ministries (and independent congregations, as well). Nine times out of 10, radically independent religious organizations are only as honest as their charismatic, gifted, rainmaker founders allow them to be. This is true whether we're talking yoga or the prosperity anti-gospel. It was true long ago when I worked with skilled investigative reporters trying to probe the hidden scandals of PTL’s Jim Bakker. Alas, this remains true today." ~Terry Mattingly

https://www.getreligion.org/getrelig...to-investigate

The reason we're having this discussion here is because nobody had this discussion when Jane Anderson came forward, when Max Rapoport came forward, when John Ingalls came forward, when Al Knoch and Bill Mallon came forward, when Don Rutledge came forward, when Steve Isitt spoke up, when Lily Hsu came forward, when Greg and Jo Casteel wrote their open letter. Instead, it's always been: obfuscate, mischaracterize, deny, impugn the witnesses. That worked for a while, but it only delayed the inevitable.

Originally Posted by Indiana

John Ingalls is charged with suggesting that the manager of Living Stream should be fired, as if this was an attack and not a legitimate suggestion. The LSM manager was responsible for immoral behavior and for division in the churches, which Brother Lee was well aware of before he released FPR. Yet he indicts John Ingalls for suggesting that his son, Philip Lee, should be fired!

Paul Kerr, a promising younger brother in Anaheim during the turmoil, wrote: “In the real business world, where I operate, Philip Lee would have been fired, legally charged by the abused plaintiff, forced to settle for millions of dollars and he and the LSM would have been reported to the California labor board”. Brothers like John Ingalls and Paul Kerr should be commended for their integrity when there was none in the political handling of Philip Lee by others during the late eighties turmoil.

www.lordsrecovery.us/UncoveringFermentation.pdf

[Nell]

From the santa-ana-orange-county-register Jan. 2, 1979. Max blows the whistle.

[Nell]

Ravi Zacharias’s Denomination Revokes Ordination

[UntoHim]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

Ravi Zacharias was an itinerant Christian preacher/philosopher/apologist. He was not a church leader of any kind. Neither Zacharias nor RZIM ministries was officially accredited, affiliated, sponsored or sanctioned by any particular Christian denomination, organization or ministry. There was no official (and apparently no unofficial) oversite, checks and balances or safe-guards put in place by Ravi or other ministry leaders. (sound familiar?)

Originally Posted by VP - Christian and Missionary Alliance

"Ravi Zacharias International Ministries (RZIM) is not affiliated with the denomination or any CMA church"

"We do want people to go to church. We want everyone to go to church. He should have been attending church. I don’t know if he was or not, but he should have been"

https://www.christianitytoday.com/ne...rdination.html
-
Zacharias used his so-called "ordination" with CMA as a cover. It is also apparent that Zacharias had no commitment to an established local church. He was not in intimate, significant fellowship with any non-RZIM Christians. Apparently he was too busy jetsetting round the world and sexually abusing women. May God have mercy.
-

[aron]

Originally Posted by Nell

From the santa-ana-orange-county-register Jan. 2, 1979. Max blows the whistle.

It should be stressed that this wasn't consensual. The power imbalance between Philip Lee and the secretary was enormous. Like Harvey Weinstein's office at Miramax, where an actress finds herself under pressure to yield to the studio boss. But worse than Hollywood, where perils are known, this was supposedly safe within a religious setting, in the epicentre of the ministry even. Yet there lurk predators like RZ and PL.

[Sons to Glory!]

I was not a big fan of Ravi, but a few I know are. So I went with some others to hear Ravi and Dennis Prager speak a few years ago at a large, mega church building in Phoenix. Honestly, I didn't connect much with Ravi's speaking at the time . . . I thought it was maybe just my preference. (actually, I think I connected more with Dennis' speaking!)

I've noticed a few times with Christian speakers, that when listening to them I sensed something was off, only later to find out that there was a big issue going on in their lives. I don't claim to be very effective in reading "the radar" in that respect, but I wonder if my spirit/HS was trying to convey something in these instances.

[aron]

Originally Posted by aron

..this wasn't consensual. The power imbalance between Philip Lee and the secretary was enormous.

The power relations between PL and the female help was grossly imbalanced, so what Max Rapoport in 1978 saw was not consensual. Then witness MR was run off and the victim’s family got shipped out, to quiet things down. Then another witness came upon PL and the help a decade later. We can assume these weren’t the only two instances, but that it went on for years, enabled by WL and his inner ring of associates.

Then, add that to Timothy Lee and the Daystar Motor Home venture of the early ‘70s, you can see a pattern: a family that preyed on the church over the span of 20+ years. And that’s only what little we know, because people don’t talk in the Local Church out of fear and intimidation. The inner ring created a wall of silence. “We only talk about positive things” was the quoted comment to the Santa Ana Register.

But we do know that hundreds of thousands of dollars, perhaps millions of dollars, were siphoned from the captive churches. We don’t know how much of it disappeared or where, but we do know of accounting irregularities. I believe that training fees were charged and donations made to a non-profit (LSM) to cover losses at a for-profit (Phosphorus/Daystar). We do know that Daystar Treasurer Terry Risenhoover saw illegal money-laundering before he spoke up and was run out of town.

And the LSM will say, “So what? This is all old news.” Why discuss matters that happened 50 years ago? First off, you’re selling books that were written 50 years ago, so why do those still matter? We all celebrate what occurred 2,000 years ago, because its effect has carried forward to this day. The righteousness imputed to Christ at his resurrection is ours to today; the efficacy of his blood; the Spirit poured out on Pentecost is still at work. Likewise, the crimes of the Lee family decades ago, and the enabling by the inner ring who still run LSM today. I don’t think it’s wrong to call it out. In fact it’s wrong not to call it out.

And I'll end with Terry Mattingly’s quote in post #28. Ministries and ministers who are “radically independent” with no oversight or accountability are asking for trouble. I won’t speak of RZ but with WL we all believed that he was personally transformed and incapable of such continual, heinous activities. Yet the warnings were already there, and now here we are.

[Nell]

Originally Posted by aron

The power relations between PL and the female help was grossly imbalanced, so what Max Rapoport in 1978 saw was not consensual. Then witness MR was run off and the victim’s family got shipped out, to quiet things down. Then another witness came upon PL and the help a decade later. We can assume these weren’t the only two instances, but that it went on for years, enabled by WL and his inner ring of associates.
...

It was reported that in the 1978 incident, Warren Peterson (Pederson?) walked in on PL in "the office" and reported what he saw to Max. Warren was understandably distraught and Max appropriately went to WLee and confronted him. I don't know where Warren is today, but Max died a few years ago.

Whatever Max's faults were, he was right to confront Lee about what PL had done. It should be noted that no one has ever denied that Philip was caught in the act. From the article, it's apparent that Philip's attitude was "so what?"

Nell

[Awoken]

Originally Posted by Sons to Glory!

I was not a big fan of Ravi, but a few I know are. So I went with some others to hear Ravi and Dennis Prager speak a few years ago at a large, mega church building in Phoenix. Honestly, I didn't connect much with Ravi's speaking at the time . . . I thought it was maybe just my preference. (actually, I think I connected more with Dennis' speaking!)

I've noticed a few times with Christian speakers, that when listening to them I sensed something was off, only later to find out that there was a big issue going on in their lives. I don't claim to be very effective in reading "the radar" in that respect, but I wonder if my spirit/HS was trying to convey something in these instances.

I think that's as real as real gets. It's just the same when we are not right in OUR walk with the Lord and we know something is off whenever we are "fellowshipping" with other people or with God. There's just no fooling the Holy Spirit...