My Intro + Stay or Leave?

[alwayscurious]

Hi everyone,

I've been a lurker on this forum for a few months now and I really would appreciate some guidance. I was born and raised in the recovery, very sheltered throughout middle and high school (if you catch my drift). As a man who has just entered adulthood (first yr of college) and ever since covid hit, I've been in my thoughts a lot due to the sheer amount of time I had to be alone with my thoughts.

A few months ago I decided to look up witness lee in detail on google. I've done this before but it was always just for a few minutes, just curious about how others viewed the recovery. But this time was different. The reason being, I felt pressured by those around me, mainly my mother, to read the ministry. I felt like sometimes, it became a substitute for the Bible. Not that I read the Bible as often as I should, but even then it felt wrong in a way. I always heard that we should follow the Bible and the ministry. But I just don't understand why we have to bring Lee's name up over and over, in the semi-annuals, in the SSOTs, home meetings, its always Oh brother Lee this, brother Lee that, etc.... Almost always quoting him and what he said. Now I know this may not be the case ALL the time, but for a good portion of it, it is the case.

Now, I understand that nothing on this planet is perfect, no locality and no "church" is perfect, no human is perfect. But God is perfect, and Jesus was perfect. With that being said, I don't really know how to approach this. I have a good understanding of the church's history in terms of daystar, the things covered up in terms of abuse, etc.... Those aren't my points of concern because these things just show that we need the Lord even more. What concerns me most are summarized in the next few points:

1. Why is there a sense of stigma when others use non recovery version bibles? God's Word is His Word. period.

2. How come we don't quote other "ministry books" other than ones published by LSM?

3. How come there is a stigma against marrying outside of the church life if the other person is a Christian? the Bible doesn't say don't marry outside of "the recovery". Is it because there might be a potential point of conflict with the non RCer? If anyone is able to elaborate even more on this, maybe give feedback/advice, that would be VERY VERY appreciated!

4. How come I feel like I'm doing something wrong when I'm doing normal things such as eating lunch out with friends, watching a movie, playing games, playing sports, listening to music, etc..... I just don't understand this, some of my friends from the church don't really feel this, and others I know outside of the LC don't either, so I'm wondering if there's a problem with me since I feel so bad when doing stuff outside of just the meetings and etc...

5. We say we are not a denomination, but come on, are we not? maybe not nominally, but in terms of practice and having LSM material everywhere..... are we not? I am perplexed and at my knees trying to understand for many months now....

6. If I do end up leaving in the off chance, my entire life will be ruined and shattered. 98% of my friends are all people I have grown up with in the LC, my very, very small immediate family will no doubt grow further apart from me. As a result of growing up as a church kid, my immediate family is VERY separated from our blood family and it's almost like they are acquaintances and not family (rarely see them 2-3 times a year, and that's being generous). It's like I have so many around me, yet have none truly around me, outside of the LC. I mean, I love the saints and they are all truly my family. They all love the Lord and they are all great patterns in life (from the bottom of my heart). They're the family I never had. But of course, this could all change if I do leave the church life. I can't put into words just how much of my identity, if not all of it, I would lose if I left. I would have no one to turn to even just as human companions. And its not like I can just turn to someone to talk to them about how I feel, word spreads faster than wildfire in the church. I'm just at a crossroads and need a lot of help.

Thanks,
AlwaysCurious

[Nell]

Welcome to the forum, alwayscurious!

You are asking the right questions. Regardless of age and status in the LC, the new members who come aboard ask the same questions you are troubled by...and more. When I asked those same questions a long time ago, I really already knew the answers. That's when I started planning my "exit strategy". I didn't call it that, and it really wasn't something conscious that I did, but the thought that kept coming up was "how do I get out of this?" and "this is wrong".

The social aspect of the Local Church is powerful. The thought of walking away from the only "family" and "society" you have ever known is frightening. You have an extended (biological) family that can be a real help to you. Get to know them. You're family so you're already accepted...without explanations. That's where I would start. Visit other churches. When I did that, I couldn't get past the teachings about "denominations" (You know the ones that LC isn't, but really is?) But I kept going anyway. The point is to meet people and not the way people meet. (Wow! That sounded profound! :-))

The thing about having a plan...it's just a plan. You may never need it. But it helps you to think things through and know there is a path forward. The thought "I'll lose everything" becomes "I can always do this ...". It's not easy, but it's a start. You will find a lot of people here who have walked this path before you...and lived to tell about it!

As for your questions, this forum is literally FULL of discussions on those very topics...and more!

Again, welcome. You are not alone and we're glad you're here.

Nell

[aron]

Originally Posted by alwayscurious

Now, I understand that nothing on this planet is perfect, no locality and no "church" is perfect, no human is perfect. But God is perfect, and Jesus was perfect. With that being said, I don't really know how to approach this. I have a good understanding of the church's history in terms of daystar, the things covered up in terms of abuse, etc.... Those aren't my points of concern because these things just show that we need the Lord even more.

Hi alwayscurious,

I know the above comment wasn't in your request for input but I've heard this before and want to respond (of course all the following are my opinion and not immutable 'truth'). When the faults of LC founders and leaders are noted, the view is "nobody is perfect". Yet the LC was founded based on the condemnations and rejections of imperfections of others. Why did Nee and Lee leave the Baptists and Anglicans? Why for that matter did Luther leave the RCC? Why didn't they all shrug and say, "Hey, nobody is perfect".

Somehow, when we perceive imperfections in others they're intolerable, yet ours are overlooked and forgiven, and borne with patience, charity, and goodwill. Jesus calls this "hypocrisy". Can you go thru a single LC meeting where the superiority of the 'ministry' or the inferiority of 'Christianity' isn't at least alluded to? Yet on the flip side, the defects of the 'ministry' are met with, "Oh well, nobody's perfect".

I daresay we need to be more severe with ourselves, and more lenient with others, not vice versa.

Originally Posted by alwayscurious

Why is there a sense of stigma when others use non recovery version bibles? God's Word is His Word. period. How come we don't quote other "ministry books" other than ones published by LSM?

This sense of superiority and incipient judgmentalism is woven into the LSM. The recovery version is the 'top' version, and the other ministries are all defective. Yet as I note above, defects in the LC are shrugged off. Once, I asked an LSM promoter why, in the recovery version footnotes to the Psalms, some footnotes say the psalms of imprecation are fallen, natural, because we're supposed to love our enemies and bless them, yet other psalms of imprecation have footnotes saying that this is a type of Christ defeating Satan? Why the disparity? The reply was, "Maybe this is how it is".

But maybe this is not how it is, also. We should (I argue) subject the LSM bible and ministry material to the same critical scrutiny that all other ministries (Luther, Wesley, Billy Graham) get. If the ministry isn't perfect, then why can't we point out its imperfections and move toward something closer to truth?

Originally Posted by alwayscurious

3. How come there is a stigma against marrying outside of the church life if the other person is a Christian? the Bible doesn't say don't marry outside of "the recovery". Is it because there might be a potential point of conflict with the non RCer? If anyone is able to elaborate even more on this, maybe give feedback/advice, that would be VERY VERY appreciated!

You ultimately have to make enough sense of the world for yourself in order to make such judgments on your own, and stand or fall with them. This is called 'adulthood'. When you are 5 years old, you do what you are told (or should). When you are 15, still true, even though you have an adult's body, because you are eating their food and sleeping in their house.

But when you are 25, and want to marry, it should be the person that is right for you, not the person that Elder X in Local Church X wants you to be paired with. So you need to learn to think, a skill not especially cultivated in the LC (if you get my drift).

Start there, then you will figure out marriage and all that kind of stuff. Career, hobbies, etc. First, think about who you are, not on someone else's terms, but your own. You are not a pawn in someone else's chess game. You are you, and there is no other. Only you can think for you.

Originally Posted by alwayscurious

We say we are not a denomination, but come on, are we not? maybe not nominally, but in terms of practice and having LSM material everywhere..... are we not? I am perplexed and at my knees trying to understand for many months now....

Continuing Steadfastly
Bibles for America
Rhema Inc
Christians on Campus
Affirmation and Critique
Living Stream Ministry
Lord's Move to Europe

These are all names given to entities for "the work". Yet "the church" is not named because that is a "denomination" and is forbidden by God. It looks to me like a shell game, where words are pushed around, and the end result is everyone but me is condemned. Hooray!

I see this again and again in the LC. We have "workers" and they have "clergy". We have "full-time training" and they have "seminaries" etc etc. The basis of the LC is wholesale condemnation on all else, and yet continual pleas to "Overlook our messy kitchen" as WL said repeatedly. I personally don't think that this is a manual for success. (again, all the above is my opinion)

[aron]

Originally Posted by Nell

The thing about having a plan...it's just a plan. You may never need it. But it helps you to think things through and know there is a path forward.

I'll repeat something I said earlier, with this in view. When you are 5, you're not supposed to have a plan. Just listen to Mom & Dad, and obey. When you are 15, same. But as you move into your 20s, learn to think, learn to listen, don't be reflexive. You've been heavily programmed by the LC experience. Slowly allow yourself to question. Don't panic and run around in circles. Just allow yourself to be exposed to other points of view, other methodologies. College is a great opportunity. Spread your wings, not to drunken squalor and sloth but to people who think, who feel, who live and work around you. Borrow their successes and you will build your own.

But take your time. It is not easy, transitioning from childhood to adulthood. In the LC they don't give you any tools. You have to carefully search, and get your own. But they are there, if you look. And the 'plan' will emerge. It's funny how it happens.

In the Navy Seals they have a saying, "slow is smooth. Smooth is fast". Go slow, take it easy, don't go backwards. Just slowly build something that can last, and at some point you may be surprised at how well the transition goes. Panic doesn't work. Terror doesn't build. Anger doesn't last. But peace lasts. And love is real. So find what is real, and do your best to stay there.

Originally Posted by Nell

The point is to meet people and not the way people meet.

Yes, that's what Jesus did. He built something that has lasted. Look, here we all are.

Originally Posted by alwayscurious

3. How come there is a stigma against marrying outside of the church life if the other person is a Christian? the Bible doesn't say don't marry outside of "the recovery". Is it because there might be a potential point of conflict with the non RCer? If anyone is able to elaborate even more on this, maybe give feedback/advice, that would be VERY VERY appreciated!

I don't have a good answer to this, but I've considered this from a sociological perspective. In cults, a marriage involves three people: the married couple + the cult leader. In this way, each family unit is easily controlled and directed according to the interests of the cult. I realize that they may CLAIM that Jesus should be the third person in a marriage. But it's really their idea of Jesus (more like Witness Lee's principles) that becomes the controlling factor in the marriage... it's simply an effective method of control. At the rate at which they are losing members, particularly young people, they are really getting desperate to retain people and produce more children for the recovery.

You're absolutely right that the Bible doesn't say that we can't marry someone outside the "recovery." In my view, the local church is actually twisting the "unequally yoked" concept and wrongly applying it to everyone outside the recovery. They're almost implying that those outside the local churches aren't genuine believers and are not good enough to marry those within the recovery. I've met many single people in the local churches who desire very much to be married but refuse to date outside the recovery (more like they're mentally hindered from doing so because they judge other christians so much)... it's honestly sad.

As a side note, I've noticed that FTTA alumni are only willing to marry other FTTA alumni... and excuse me, but did the Bible ever tell us to put certain christians on a pedestal?? It's as if FTTA and non-FTTA people are on different levels of value and are automatically incompatible. It's all elitism and no substance, if you think about it.

[Trapped]

alwayscurious, welcome to the forum!

I’m also a church kid myself, although older than you. All of your questions are very reasonable, normal, and common among church kids. I know many church kids who have expressed the exact same sentiment you did in point 4. I’m at work right now so I only have time to respond to your point 5, but will try to get to others later on.

Originally Posted by alwayscurious

5. We say we are not a denomination, but come on, are we not? maybe not nominally, but in terms of practice and having LSM material everywhere..... are we not? I am perplexed and at my knees trying to understand for many months now....

You can get off your knees and be secure in the knowledge that you are seeing the situation accurately. You are not illogically perplexed by something normal, but are clearly seeing a perplexing situation.

Let me give an example, using the local church’s very ministry. Witness Lee calls other churches, groups, denominations, etc, “spiritual fornicators” because they “take a name other than Christ”.

But what are those names? They are descriptors of that group or of what’s actually going on in that group. The Lutheran church calls itself that because they follow what Luther said. The Methodist church calls itself that because they follow the methods of Wesley. The Baptist church calls itself that because they hold to immersive baptism that tightly. The church that goes by “Pepperidge Church” calls itself that because it is located on Pepperidge Lane, etc.... Names describe what’s going on.

Okay. Let’s say you have two people, both of whom are sleeping around. One of them admits they are sleeping around and recognizes he is an adulterer. The other who is sleeping around refuses to recognize that he’s an adulterer.

Does the refusal to recognize the reality mean that the second one is no longer an adulterer, and absolved of his actions? Of course not! We all know this. He is still an adulterer even though he doesn’t call himself one.

All right.....so here we have one set of Christians following Luther. One set following Wesley. And one set following Witness Lee.

Does the local church refusal to admit their own behavior and call themselves what they are mean they don’t do the very thing they look down on everyone else for? Of course not.

And the kicker is that the local church devotion to Witness Lee reasonably outstrips most other groups, to the extent that no one in the LC can publish any Christian material in their own personal lives without permission, or without pushback if they do so. As you mentioned, the SSOT materials are of Lee, the weekly HWMR is of Lee, the seven annual feasts are of Lee’s materials and teachings alone, the FTTA is almost totally Lee’s materials, and on and on and on. His name is brought up reverently by the co-workers all the time, when there are problems in the church the leadership runs to “the ministry” (to see what Lee had to say on the topic), and if you don’t hold to Lee’s ministry as THE ministry “that solves all our problems” (yes, that has been taught) then you are not “absolute for the Lord”. Lee’s ministry is the measure by which new ones off college campuses are rated......how open to the ministry they are. Denominations are nowhere NEAR as bad as that, as far as “taking a name”.

On the “cult” spectrum, the local church is at the very least a personality cult, if not a theological and sociological one too. Witness Lee is, through his very “minister of the age” doctrine, quite literally a mediator between God and the members of the local church, even if they teach a personal relationship with God at the same time. New revelations, esoteric doctrines, “the up-to-date speaking” of God comes through Witness Lee. And somehow it still manages to come through Witness Lee even after his death 24 years ago.

Look at that – in the local church, God apparently speaks through a dead man.......whereas a healthy church (which you can find in Christianity) holds to the speaking of the only man who died and rose again.

Yes, the breakdown of the word 'denomination' has to do with name only, but the definition of a denomination is simply "a recognized autonomous branch of the Christian church", or "a distinct religious body within Christianity identified by traits such as a name, organization, and doctrine". The local church can't get away from what it really is.

So does the fact that the local churches don't call themselves what they are - the Witness Lee local church movement - mean they aren't that thing? Nope. They are, as you've rightly noticed, a denomination, and much worse than a denomination, based on their practices.

I want to make one more observation about this and then I'll stop. What this all means is that the common behavior of most, if not all, of the members in the local church is to deny what is plainly evident. To do and act a certain way while denying all along they are acting or doing it. To look down on other people for doing lesser versions of what they are doing themselves, but absolve themselves of it. And this is how it is taught. This isn't a mistake, but the actual teaching within the church. And it produces what is called "cognitive dissonance" within the saints. Where you are holding or doing two contradictory beliefs at the same time. Claiming you are not a denomination around Witness Lee while being pickled in only Witness Lee. And you have to deny reality within yourself somewhere in order to do that. Does it make any sense that Jesus, who is truth and reality, would design the church to operate on a denial of reality?

So yes, no church is perfect, but there are many churches are out there who are imperfect in much healthier ways than the local church.

Trapped

[Sons to Glory!]

Welcome! Good answers already, but to be sure all points you made are addressed, I responded to each below in blue.

Originally Posted by alwayscurious

1. Why is there a sense of stigma when others use non recovery version bibles? God's Word is His Word. period.

You are 100% correct and there is no legitimate reason for any "stigma!" The Recovery Version is decent, and I know people who use it. But it is not the be-all/end-all by any means. I find things in all translations that are not the best or most literal, and are flavored by someone's ideas. This is certainly true of the RV as well.

2. How come we don't quote other "ministry books" other than ones published by LSM?

It's a purposely myopic, elitist and protectionist view. When in the LC, we were repeatedly told, "There's nothing fresh of the Lord out there outside of LSM, so don't bother looking!" This is so, so not true. Granted, one has to dig a little to find books that speak of the church as dwelling place of God & walking daily according to spirit, etc., but they can be found.

3. How come there is a stigma against marrying outside of the church life if the other person is a Christian? the Bible doesn't say don't marry outside of "the recovery". Is it because there might be a potential point of conflict with the non RCer? If anyone is able to elaborate even more on this, maybe give feedback/advice, that would be VERY VERY appreciated!

This is another protectionist practice and quite legalistic. You are right - there is no such admonition to be found in scripture! Some Christian sects (including Roman Catholics) try to do this to preserve their control and influence. Many folks also talk about the LC trying to arrange their marriages - try finding that in New Testament scripture! (hint - not there)

4. How come I feel like I'm doing something wrong when I'm doing normal things such as eating lunch out with friends, watching a movie, playing games, playing sports, listening to music, etc..... I just don't understand this, some of my friends from the church don't really feel this, and others I know outside of the LC don't either, so I'm wondering if there's a problem with me since I feel so bad when doing stuff outside of just the meetings and etc...

I think what you are describing is just "gray fog condemnation" that our spiritual enemy tries to put on us believers. That is, you can't point to any particular sinful thing causing it . . . it just seems to surround us sometimes. The Lord loves us so much He died to justify us. He doesn't condemn us. Stand fast on the facts of His love for us, and invite these negative & nebulus feelings to be on their way. If He doesn't want you to be doing something, the Anointing within is surely able to let you know clearly!

5. We say we are not a denomination, but come on, are we not? maybe not nominally, but in terms of practice and having LSM material everywhere..... are we not? I am perplexed and at my knees trying to understand for many months now....

In my book, anyone that focuses on a particular ministry to the exclusion of others is a group separating itself from other Christians. The term "denomination" is rooted in "denominate" or to divide or separate. So in that sense, certainly yes, the LC is a another denomination. The ground of oneness is one such divisive teaching (though the irony of that is not missed by folks on this forum!) The centralized authority of the LC ministry is another way it denominates.

6. If I do end up leaving in the off chance, my entire life will be ruined and shattered. 98% of my friends are all people I have grown up with in the LC, my very, very small immediate family will no doubt grow further apart from me. As a result of growing up as a church kid, my immediate family is VERY separated from our blood family and it's almost like they are acquaintances and not family (rarely see them 2-3 times a year, and that's being generous). It's like I have so many around me, yet have none truly around me, outside of the LC. I mean, I love the saints and they are all truly my family. They all love the Lord and they are all great patterns in life (from the bottom of my heart). They're the family I never had. But of course, this could all change if I do leave the church life. I can't put into words just how much of my identity, if not all of it, I would lose if I left. I would have no one to turn to even just as human companions. And its not like I can just turn to someone to talk to them about how I feel, word spreads faster than wildfire in the church. I'm just at a crossroads and need a lot of help.

What you convey is really too bad and truly sad. It's a decision only you can make . . . and do seek the Lord in this matter before doing anything. Whether you stay or go should be completely up to you and Jesus, and don't receive "good advise" from anyone telling you to specifically do this or that end-game action. Here's a couple things to consider. Look at the characteristics of love in 1st Corinthians 13. If you leave and it happens as you have said, would these ones be operating in love as described in that passage? Love is the real acid test - and should be present not just when things are going well and according to someone's conception of things. His love to us is real no matter where we go or what we do. Many groups "shun" others who leave them, such as the Amish and the LC certainly does their version of this too. They might say, "We're shunning you for your own good - it's tough love. And if you come back, we will welcome you with open arms." But I don't believe Jesus ever shuns us in this way - to cut us off from love and fellowship to control us in some way.

[Trapped]

The short answer to all your questions, alwayscurious, is that if you start looking into what makes a cult a cult, or an abusive church an abusive church, or an aberrant group aberrant.....the local churches match up. They just do. You can be as lenient as you want on the categories, but the characteristics still match up too many ways for it to be anything but.

People who are experts on cults have boiled the known manipulative and controlling tactics commonly used in cult down to an acronym called the BITE Model. There are numerous manipulative and controlling tactics from this list that are used in the local churches. It stands for:

B - Behavior
I - Information
T - Thought
E - Emotion

.....control

You can read some examples of this here: https://freedomofmind.com/bite-model/

The ministry/co-workers in local churches use all of these four tactics to subtly control and influence the saints. There's no way around it. Some examples are:

Behavior control:
Discourage individualism. "All our differences must be blended away" (except the Bible says the opposite - that the members are distinct one from the other).

Imply that God will hurt, maim, or strike you down for leaving the local church or for speaking up about your genuine concerns.

Fear-based, by the way.

Information control:
They call any websites that speak honestly about the local church "poison" or "negative" or say that you will be "dead" if you touch them. This is a classic abusive church fear mechanism. It is, at its core, a literal threat.

Fear-based, once again.

Thought control:
The classic "you are too much in your mind" or "get out of your mind and into your spirit" fits this category well. (by the way, scripture NEVER tells us to get out of, or abandon, or not use our mind)

This is called a "thought-stopping cliche" that short circuits your thinking and results in compliance. Shuts you down for expressing a concern.

Emotion control:
Promote feelings of guilt or that you are always the problem. This describes your point #4 exactly. Case in point.

The tactic there is condemnation.

Originally Posted by alwayscurious

1. Why is there a sense of stigma when others use non recovery version bibles? God's Word is His Word. period.

The leadership in the local churches consider other translations to be leaven. I'm not exaggerating. Witness Lee's footnotes and Witness Lee's personal stamp on the translation is what makes the RcV word of God pure.

They call the recovery version "the gold bar". Note that they are not referring to the Bible when they say that, but to the Recovery Version specifically.

This ain't normal.

Originally Posted by alwayscurious

2. How come we don't quote other "ministry books" other than ones published by LSM?

Because the local church is on the cult spectrum. The focus of this cult is strange - one man and the books he published. I honestly am not aware of any other group where a set of books is the top dog.

Because, they say, that other books come from "degraded Christianity" and have a different "flavor" than Witness Lee. What does that mean? Nothing. It's just another way they manipulate you into feeling bad for daring to have the thought that another flavor is actually okay.

The Bible itself was written by a variety of authors, for heaven's sake. There's a good reason we are not to be restricted to one fallen human for anything in the church.

More later.

[alwayscurious]

Thank you all for your replies. It means a lot to know that there are others that have gone through some of what I am currently experiencing.

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by alwayscurious

Thank you all for your replies. It means a lot to know that there are others that have gone through some of what I am currently experiencing.

You are most welcome and I hope there was some real help to you (and that we are not just "Job's councilors")!