Recovery Version Translation Issue: "Reality" in place of "Truth"

[UntoHim]

We recently received a registration request from a former LC member who will be posting as "Seeker". This person asked this question along with their request to register. I thought I would post it here to help us get a jump start of the subject.

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I started reading posts on this forum with lots of questions while meeting with LC. Eventually decided to leave them. This forum helped me with many questions.

There are still something bothering me, I would like to ask on the forum. The question I want to ask is:
Most version John 14:6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way and the truth and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me."

Recovery version is using "reality" instead of "truth". Is there something wrong with It?

Thank you
Seeking

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[Seeking]

Thank you, UntoHim.

This question comes from me.

[Sons to Glory!]

If we look at John 14:6, "I am the way, the truth and the life - no one comes to the Father except through Me", "truth" here is ἀλήθεια (alētheia) which is Strong's reference 225. Strong's definition is " truth, but not merely truth as spoken; truth of idea, reality, sincerity, truth in the moral sphere, divine truth revealed to man, straightforwardness."

So this is one place where I don't see much issue with using the word "reality" for "truth" - they are basically synonymous.

But reality does also seem to carry the meaning of a fuller, broader picture. I kinda think of the Matrix movie, where they thought they were living a true life, but in reality they were hooked-up to a life-sucking machine.

[Ohio]

Welcome to the forum Seeking!

Nothing is wrong with translating either truth or reality. Both are good. Often truth is interpreted as merely "doctrine" or a collection of right "teachings," so by using "reality" we get new perspective.

A similar example is the translation of ekklesia into "church" or "assembly." If our thought is only a building, then we miss what the writer of the Bible intended. That's why some have changed to "assembly," because it refers to people instead of buildings.

Hope this helps.

[UntoHim]

In general, the Recovery Version New Testament is a solid translation... the only exceptions being where Witness Lee had a big influence. Witness Lee had zero formal training in Koine Greek and had absolutely no business having any kind of influence on the translators. But since Lee had to be able to take credit for just about everything, the translators acquiesced to the Acting god, and bent the established rules of biblical translation.

My problem with replacing "truth" with "reality" is that it is really more of an interpretation/expounding upon the Greek than it is a straight translation. I think it should have been translated as truth (as it is in the vast majority of modern English translations) with a footnote explaining that the Greek carries with it the connotation of reality, which is what Lee did anyway in the footnote.

Finally, I would put forth the proposition that the word/term "truth" carries with it the implied notion of "reality", but the word "reality" does not necessarily carry with it the implied notion of "truth". Just my personal opinion and input, for what it's worth
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Thank you very much for everyone’s help.

I’m slowly washing off some impacts from LC, making me doubt many things, especially those different translations/interpretations used in LC. Feel it will be a long way.

Seeking

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Unregistered

Thank you very much for everyone’s help.

I’m slowly washing off some impacts from LC, making me doubt many things, especially those different translations/interpretations used in LC. Feel it will be a long way.

Seeking

Again, the RV is not a bad translation, but it does project certain preconceptions - all translations do to some extent. Just steer clear of the footnotes and marinate in the pure word, and let the Anointing speak to you.

And regarding it being a "long way," it may or may not be - He is able! What seems like a long time to us is nothing to the eternal God. He may need to prepare your heart for seeing something before He shows you, and this often takes some time. The biggest two things He showed me after I left the "Recovery" was that the LC doesn't have the exclusive grasp on God and His purpose, and a number of authors living (currently or recently) have been shown a lot by God; the other major thing He showed me was that it is His great love for man that is His primary motivator in interacting with us. He is not about whacking us when we step out of line (or leave the LC - a truly silly notion). HE LOVES US more than we can know!

With Him showing me those two things, I was then ready to start receiving properly from Him and others. Praise God!

Just a question on this topic that I figured I ask:
Since the RV and the members of LC constantly focus themselves on this concept of “reality”, which seems to be changing from year to year, does the truth also change from year to year?

The reason for my question, is because I was sent a link to LSM conference schedule and titles to be discussed, and this one was obviously a can’t miss:

JULY SEMIANNUAL TRAINING
Subject: An Overview of the Central Burden and Present Truth of the Lord’s Recovery before His Appearing
July 3-8, 2023
Anaheim, CA
Registration is required. Further information is available through Living Stream Ministry. Please contact register@lsm.org.

Is there even such a thing as a past truth or present truth? Isn’t what was true 2000 years ago is still true today?

[Sons to Glory!]

Originally Posted by Onlooker

Just a question on this topic that I figured I ask:
Since the RV and the members of LC constantly focus themselves on this concept of “reality”, which seems to be changing from year to year, does the truth also change from year to year?

The reason for my question, is because I was sent a link to LSM conference schedule and titles to be discussed, and this one was obviously a can’t miss:

JULY SEMIANNUAL TRAINING
Subject: An Overview of the Central Burden and Present Truth of the Lord’s Recovery before His Appearing
July 3-8, 2023
Anaheim, CA
Registration is required. Further information is available through Living Stream Ministry. Please contact register@lsm.org.

Is there even such a thing as a past truth or present truth? Isn’t what was true 2000 years ago is still true today?

I agree - the wording does make it sound like it's the truth that is evolving. Of course, the truth doesn't change, but rather our realization of that existing truth.

I must admit, a fair amount of the the wording of the LC can seem a little unusual to me now . . .

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by UntoHim

In general, the Recovery Version New Testament is a solid translation...

The outlines and subheadings are pretty dangerous, they are interpretations of the sections. They lead any reader to eisegesis the text.

If you could read the recovery version without footnotes or heading / subheadings, sure.

[Zezima]

Originally Posted by Onlooker

Just a question on this topic that I figured I ask:
Since the RV and the members of LC constantly focus themselves on this concept of “reality”, which seems to be changing from year to year, does the truth also change from year to year?

The reason for my question, is because I was sent a link to LSM conference schedule and titles to be discussed, and this one was obviously a can’t miss:

JULY SEMIANNUAL TRAINING
Subject: An Overview of the Central Burden and Present Truth of the Lord’s Recovery before His Appearing
July 3-8, 2023
Anaheim, CA
Registration is required. Further information is available through Living Stream Ministry. Please contact register@lsm.org.

Is there even such a thing as a past truth or present truth? Isn’t what was true 2000 years ago is still true today?

In ancient Roman-Greco times , like 540 BC there was a philosopher that coined the idea of there being a underlying principle in which everything is ordered, his name was Heraclitus. A lot of the more famous philosophers built on that, and presented their own flavor or interpretation of it. The word for that principle was Logos. So perhaps that’s how they are viewing “present truth”

Originally Posted by Zezima

In ancient Roman-Greco times , like 540 BC there was a philosopher that coined the idea of there being a underlying principle in which everything is ordered, his name was Heraclitus. A lot of the more famous philosophers built on that, and presented their own flavor or interpretation of it. The word for that principle was Logos. So perhaps that’s how they are viewing “present truth”

Interesting answer Zezima,

But isn’t Bible speak to this issue: “ See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirits of the world, and not according to Christ.”?

Philosophy and elemental spirits have a lot in common, or actually one of the same.

And,
Is Heraclitus a Roman-Greco version of the English word for Heresy? Perhaps it may be, but we will never know. I’m just sometimes blown away by what people come up with to find a way to justify LCs utter neglect for simply speaking the truth.

Thanks

[aron]

Originally Posted by Onlooker

Just a question on this topic that I figured I ask:
Since the RV and the members of LC constantly focus themselves on this concept of “reality”, which seems to be changing from year to year, does the truth also change from year to year?

Is there even such a thing as a past truth or present truth? Isn’t what was true 2000 years ago is still true today?

In the LC it's well-known that the 'reality' is whatever the Maximum Brother (MB) wants today. It's a theology (and practice) of convenience. Watchman Nee promoted local independence of faith communities, but only until they were shed of Western influence. Then he "recovered" the Jerusalem Principle, where all local assemblies had to get in line with HQ, in his case the Shanghai Assembly.

WN had close 'apostolic' female co-workers in his Little Flock: Dora Yu, Peace Wang, Ruth Lee. In Witness Lee's LC, women couldn't even give a message in a local assembly.

In WL's Recovery Version of the Bible, if King David cursed his enemies and swore vengeance, then this was "fallen humanity" and "natural concepts" according to the footnotes, while a few chapters later, similar passages were called types of Christ defeating Satan. And so on, where 'reality' is whatever seems convenient for MB today. Hopefully, the heel-rocking, fist-pumping, incessant chanting and shouting has dulled one's perceptions, and the contradictions are not so constant or glaring as to cause trouble.

[Gubei]

Originally Posted by Onlooker

J


Is there even such a thing as a past truth or present truth? Isn’t what was true 2000 years ago is still true today?

I'm not sure if this is helpful,but...

Aletheia, which is the original Greek word for reality or truth, is composed of "a" + 'lēthē', meaning un-forgetting in its Greek etymology. Seems like Greeks had been thinking at that time that crossing over the river of Lethe (forgetting) leads to hell, or the realm of the dead, i.e. separation from the real world of the living. We might think that the vivid sense of this living world is reality to ancient Greeks, and the NT writers adoped this Greek word.

Anyway, under this context, reality(aletheia) should be understood as beyond specific time or tense context, so the expressons like "past truth or present truth" sound quite inappropriated to me.